geekhack

geekhack Community => Ergonomics => Topic started by: Oobly on Mon, 05 October 2015, 05:04:45

Title: How do you press Alt? How about the key between Ctrl and Alt?
Post by: Oobly on Mon, 05 October 2015, 05:04:45: Hi all,

I'm interested to know which finger you use for pressing the Alt key. Thumbs, pinkies or other?

I tend to move my hand across and use my thumb, what do you use?

-Oobly

<EDIT> And what do you use for "Win" / "Fn"?
Title: Re: How do you press Alt?
Post by: darkspider on Mon, 05 October 2015, 05:30:03: ring finger for each alt.
Title: Re: How do you press Alt?
Post by: raymogi on Mon, 05 October 2015, 05:36:45: I use thumb as well.
Title: Re: How do you press Alt?
Post by: swimmingbird on Mon, 05 October 2015, 05:41:03: thumbs
Title: Re: How do you press Alt?
Post by: azhdar on Mon, 05 October 2015, 06:13:21: Thumbs
Title: Re: How do you press Alt?
Post by: Evo_Spec on Mon, 05 October 2015, 06:41:09: thumb

(http://www.soompi.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/PSY-thumbs-up.jpg)
Title: Re: How do you press Alt?
Post by: ssdt on Mon, 05 October 2015, 06:46:42: On my Poker II I use my left thumb, the right one is a modifier.
On the HHKB its my pinkie, cause I swapped the keys.
Title: Re: How do you press Alt?
Post by: tufty on Mon, 05 October 2015, 07:16:32: Ring finger when I'm using emacs (where alt is mapped to meta). Mind you, on my thinkpad hackintosh, the key marked "alt" is command and the "windows" key is "option", which is more commonly known as alt, and that's where I have meta mapped. So I'm not sure where that leaves you. The key marked as "alt", which is actually "command", I tend to use with the thumb for one-handed chords and middle finger for two handed chords.

I don't use the right-hand alt (mapped, it would seem, to command), "menu" (option/alt) or ctrl at all.
Title: Re: How do you press Alt?
Post by: Oobly on Mon, 05 October 2015, 08:43:58: Thanks for the responses so far, guys!

I guess I should make the question a little clearer for Mac Users..

The keys I am interested in are the ones right next to the spacebar on either side. So I guess that's "Command" on a Mac.

I guess I can also reveal the motivation behind my asking: I'm trying to determine the best row profile for these keys and if they should be different to the other bottom row modifiers. For instance on a fully sculpted SA set with Row 4 bottom mods, would you prefer Alt to be Row 3 (flat) like the spacebar, or Row 4 like the other mods?

I would guess that the ring finger voters would prefer Row 4, thumbers would prefer Row 3...

Hmm.. I say "I guess" too much, I guess....
Title: Re: How do you press Alt?
Post by: Findecanor on Mon, 05 October 2015, 11:59:43: Thumbs. Left Alt is used only for Alt-Tab. Right Alt is Alt Graph.
Title: Re: How do you press Alt?
Post by: inanis on Mon, 05 October 2015, 12:26:17: I only use the left Alt key and when I do, it depends on what I'm doing. For Ctrl+Alt+Delete I use my index finger to hit Alt. If I'm doing something like Alt+Tab, then I use my thumb.
Title: Re: How do you press Alt?
Post by: tp4tissue on Mon, 05 October 2015, 17:09:05: either thumb, or bottom right of palm
Title: Re: How do you press Alt?
Post by: Niomosy on Mon, 05 October 2015, 17:24:32: Thumbs as well.
Title: Re: How do you press Alt?
Post by: rowdy on Mon, 05 October 2015, 22:39:10: Pretty much thumbs, and mostly the thumb on the same hand that is pressing the altered key.
Title: Re: How do you press Alt?
Post by: FoxWolf1 on Tue, 06 October 2015, 09:23:57: Thumb, and I only use left alt (and left shift, and left control except for very rare circumstances)

I also use that thumb for win, control, shift, z, x, c, v, a, s, and d...
Title: Re: How do you press Alt?
Post by: blahlicus on Tue, 06 October 2015, 12:05:32: thumbs

mostly left alt too unless im doing alt+ctrl+delete, in that case, right alt
Title: Re: How do you press Alt?
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Tue, 06 October 2015, 12:06:50: thumbs
Title: Re: How do you press Alt?
Post by: pichu23 on Tue, 06 October 2015, 13:21:25: Thumbs :D
Title: Re: How do you press Alt?
Post by: rowdy on Tue, 06 October 2015, 21:06:26: And actually, heh, on Mac there is no Alt key :p

But I assumed you meant Command for Mac users ;)
Title: Re: How do you press Alt?
Post by: Oobly on Wed, 07 October 2015, 02:14:23: Thanks, guys! Looks like the thumbs have the majority. How about the keys between Ctrl and Alt (for those that have them, or Ctrl and Comand for Mac users)? I tend to use my pinkie for Ctrl, but thumbs for "Win" (remapped to Fn), but I would guess it's about 50/50 between thumbs and "other fingers" (usually ring or pinkie) for these keys and dependent on what combinations you use them for.

Quote from: FoxWolf1 on Tue, 06 October 2015, 09:23:57
Thumb, and I only use left alt (and left shift, and left control except for very rare circumstances)

I also use that thumb for win, control, shift, z, x, c, v, a, s, and d...

Very interesting, although it sounds like Ctrl-C and Ctrl-V could be a bit awkward. Do you use Ctrl-Insert / Shift-Insert instead?
Title: Re: How do you press Alt? How about the key between Ctrl and Alt?
Post by: rowdy on Wed, 07 October 2015, 02:43:18: Ctrl - on HHKB always the left pinky.

On other keyboards, probably either pinky or thumb, and again generally the digit on the same hand that is hitting the main key.

Ctrl-C/V/X I do with left pinky and left index finger.

Shift-Ins I only do with PuTTY, although a few guys at work have never used Ctrl-C/V that I have seen, they ALWAYS use Ins/Del.
Title: Re: How do you press Alt? How about the key between Ctrl and Alt?
Post by: keshley on Wed, 07 October 2015, 07:50:26: Alt pretty much always thumb. Same with Win key. Ctrl is always left pinky. Don't use right Ctrl at all anymore. Right alt gets used occasionally, still with thumb.
Title: Re: How do you press Alt?
Post by: tufty on Thu, 08 October 2015, 04:44:18: Quote from: rowdy on Tue, 06 October 2015, 21:06:26
And actually, heh, on Mac there is no Alt key
ORLY?

Macbook keyboard
(http://cdn6.bigcommerce.com/s-blhknq8/product_images/images/macbook_air_laptop_key_11_keyboard.jpg)
Apple wireless keybord
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/96/Apple-wireless-keyboard-aluminum-2007.jpg)
Apple wired keyboard (cyrillic version)
(http://sw.my-moto.ru/Apple_Keyboard_Slim_RUS_cyrillic.jpg)
Apple **** keyboard
(http://xahlee.info/kbd/i2/Apple_pro_keyboard.jpg)
Apple Pro keyboard:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c5/Apple_Pro_Keyboard_black.jpg)
It's not just apple, either.
Apple wireless keyboard clone
(https://shinytechblog.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/6.jpg)
Maybe you'd like older. Howsabout the venerable AEKII?
(http://www.retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/m_kbdm3501.jpg)

No, it's not the primary labelling, but every Apple keyboard I've owned or used since the AEK had option additionally labelled as "alt". My old Tactile Pro was also labeled this way, although the newer ones aren't.
Title: Re: How do you press Alt? How about the key between Ctrl and Alt?
Post by: rowdy on Thu, 08 October 2015, 04:49:45: That's REALLY an Option key.

It just says "Alt" on there to make Windows users feel more at home.

Macs have Option and Command, whereas Windows has Windows and Alt.
Title: Re: How do you press Alt? How about the key between Ctrl and Alt?
Post by: Oobly on Thu, 08 October 2015, 07:00:01: Pedantic semantics. I'm guilty of that quite often, too.

I tend to use my right hand thumb on the "option" key and Fn key on my MacBook Pro, since then I can one-hand the combination I'm going for... I don't often use those keys, though.
Title: Re: How do you press Alt? How about the key between Ctrl and Alt?
Post by: Zustiur on Thu, 08 October 2015, 20:47:01: Quote from: Oobly on Thu, 08 October 2015, 07:00:01
Pedantic semantics. I'm guilty of that quite often, too.

I tend to use my right hand thumb on the "option" key and Fn key on my MacBook Pro, since then I can one-hand the combination I'm going for... I don't often use those keys, though.
I'm noticing more and more that I only use my left hand for modifiers other than shift.
Alt is mostly thumb.
Ctrl is pinky or edge of hand.
Win is dictated by what else I'm doing at the time.
Title: Re: How do you press Alt? How about the key between Ctrl and Alt?
Post by: Oobly on Fri, 09 October 2015, 01:49:30: Quote from: Zustiur on Thu, 08 October 2015, 20:47:01
Quote from: Oobly on Thu, 08 October 2015, 07:00:01
Pedantic semantics. I'm guilty of that quite often, too.

I tend to use my right hand thumb on the "option" key and Fn key on my MacBook Pro, since then I can one-hand the combination I'm going for... I don't often use those keys, though.
I'm noticing more and more that I only use my left hand for modifiers other than shift.
Alt is mostly thumb.
Ctrl is pinky or edge of hand.
Win is dictated by what else I'm doing at the time.

Thanks for this, exactly the info I'm looking for. :thumb:

I also tend to use only left Ctrl, Super and Alt, except for when I use the Fn key on my 60% boards for arrows, usually that's where right Alt belongs, so that leaves 3 keys I never use on the right side of my spacebar and one I only use as a Fn key on 60%.

I think I'm going to reprogram my GON NerD60... just had a great idea: right Alt = Fn, right Shift, Win, Menu and Ctrl = arrows, /? = Home, extra key to right of Shift (like on KBT Pure) = End. Press Alt/Fn with right thumb and use the cluster next to it for navigation. Better than Fn+OKL; or WASD, since it's an inverted T in the bottom right corner where my hand expects. Sorry for the Off-Topic.
Title: Re: How do you press Alt? How about the key between Ctrl and Alt?
Post by: ImpendingxDoom on Fri, 09 October 2015, 01:56:16: (http://i.imgur.com/xcR6zML.jpg)

:D

jk, I use my pinky for ctrl, and thumb for alt. Winkey is no mans land.
Title: Re: How do you press Alt? How about the key between Ctrl and Alt?
Post by: cogito_ergo_sum on Sat, 10 October 2015, 11:49:15: On a standard keyboard, I use thumb for left alt. For right alt, I use either the second finger or thumb. On the Kinesis Advantage, I have h reprogrammed for alt , so I use my right index finger.
Title: Re: How do you press Alt? How about the key between Ctrl and Alt?
Post by: Oobly on Mon, 12 October 2015, 05:49:33: Quote from: ImpendingxDoom on Fri, 09 October 2015, 01:56:16
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/xcR6zML.jpg)

:D

jk, I use my pinky for ctrl, and thumb for alt. Winkey is no mans land.

:D nice one!

I'm actually coming around to a similar view, that it's pointless having keys in that "no-man's land" zone (pinkie for Ctrl, thumb for Alt) except for something like Fn where you map the layer according to the repositioned hand.
Title: Re: How do you press Alt? How about the key between Ctrl and Alt?
Post by: SamirD on Fri, 16 October 2015, 18:42:04: On a non-windows key 101 layout (which is what I always try to use), primarily thumbs with exceptions for pinky on left ctrl at times and fingers on right ctrl and alt when doing alt-ctrl-del.
Title: Re: How do you press Alt? How about the key between Ctrl and Alt?
Post by: Zustiur on Tue, 20 October 2015, 16:51:40: I've been paying attention to this lately. My use of ctrl and alt is as previously mentioned but I've noticed that I only use right win for win+L.
I have space fn and seem to use right thumb almost exclusively for both space and fn. I wish I could install a key logger at work to truly record my usage.
Title: Re: How do you press Alt? How about the key between Ctrl and Alt?
Post by: jacobolus on Thu, 22 October 2015, 06:00:24: Bottom row keys should be pressed with the thumb (except when two are needed simultaneously, in which case one can be pressed with another finger), and should be near enough to the center of the board to make that comfortable (on QWERTY, the ideal range stretches from below the X through below the comma, but going one key to the outside of that is still okay). A pair of two-unit long spacebar keys (one used for backspace) makes room for about 2 modifiers to fit comfortably on each side.

Some Japanese keyboards are pretty reasonable w/r/t providing reachable spacebar-row keys.

Ideally the whole spacebar row should be slightly separated from the ZXCV row, or else should be 1.5u wide, to require less thumb reaching.

Keys in the bottom right and left corners of the keyboard are awful, and should be removed.

(To be precise, ideally the whole layout should be rearranged. A single row-staggered block of keys is an awful shape. But fixing the bottom row on a standard keyboard makes some improvement.)
Title: Re: How do you press Alt? How about the key between Ctrl and Alt?
Post by: Kola93 on Sun, 25 October 2015, 22:59:03: Left Alt: left thumb :thumb:
Right Alt Gr: right index finger
Title: Re: How do you press Alt? How about the key between Ctrl and Alt?
Post by: Frizer on Mon, 26 October 2015, 15:32:36: (http://i.imgur.com/h6ym4Vl.jpg)

Extreme thumb action shot.
Title: Re: How do you press Alt? How about the key between Ctrl and Alt?
Post by: geekhack360 on Mon, 26 October 2015, 23:26:41: Usually my thumb.
Title: Re: How do you press Alt? How about the key between Ctrl and Alt?
Post by: gabba-gool on Tue, 27 October 2015, 08:54:43: I think I've really only ever pressed left alt and I use my left thumb. I'm just now starting to use right shift key as my default was left. Bad typing habits.
Title: Re: How do you press Alt? How about the key between Ctrl and Alt?
Post by: swimmingbird on Tue, 27 October 2015, 08:59:14: Quote from: gabba-gool on Tue, 27 October 2015, 08:54:43
I think I've really only ever pressed left alt and I use my left thumb. I'm just now starting to use right shift key as my default was left. Bad typing habits.

Not using right shift is not that bad of a habit - there are lots of very fast typists who will only use left shift as it is much easier to reach
Title: Re: How do you press Alt? How about the key between Ctrl and Alt?
Post by: gabba-gool on Tue, 27 October 2015, 09:11:27: Quote from: swimmingbird on Tue, 27 October 2015, 08:59:14
Quote from: gabba-gool on Tue, 27 October 2015, 08:54:43
I think I've really only ever pressed left alt and I use my left thumb. I'm just now starting to use right shift key as my default was left. Bad typing habits.

Not using right shift is not that bad of a habit - there are lots of very fast typists who will only use left shift as it is much easier to reach

I'm sure it's not the worst habit. It was pretty uncomfortable to press left shift + 1 for !. I was doing left pinky + left ring. Way more comfortable (for me) to do right shift + 1 or 2.
Title: Re: How do you press Alt? How about the key between Ctrl and Alt?
Post by: My_Thoughts on Tue, 27 October 2015, 09:26:00: Thumbs :)
Title: Re: How do you press Alt? How about the key between Ctrl and Alt?
Post by: kebby on Fri, 30 October 2015, 21:26:31: Thumb. Alts and left win key are pretty much the modifier that are easily reachable with thumb on a standard layout for me which is pretty annoying. The rest burdens my pinky. Would really love it if boards with split space layouts became more widespread to improve the situation.
Title: Re: How do you press Alt? How about the key between Ctrl and Alt?
Post by: braidn on Sat, 31 October 2015, 12:03:37: Thumb due it being on the thumb cluster of my ErgoDox and the middle finger on a HHKB/60/Planck/40
Title: Re: How do you press Alt? How about the key between Ctrl and Alt?
Post by: shibataken on Wed, 11 November 2015, 09:40:43: Thumbs feel the least derpy XD
Title: Re: How do you press Alt? How about the key between Ctrl and Alt?
Post by: MagicSauce on Mon, 16 November 2015, 07:49:58: Another for thumbs
Title: Re: How do you press Alt? How about the key between Ctrl and Alt?
Post by: Coreda on Mon, 16 November 2015, 08:02:46: Sometimes thumb sometimes pinky, depending on the hotkey.

For example: Alt+Ctrl+F I have bound to Newsfox in Firefox, and use a pinky, whereas Alt+F4 I use a thumb.

It's probably relevant to mention that I have the modifier to the left of the spacebar mapped to Ctrl, Mac style.
Title: Re: How do you press Alt? How about the key between Ctrl and Alt?
Post by: MeltingTeeth on Mon, 16 November 2015, 11:02:29: Thumbs.

:thumb:
Title: Re: How do you press Alt? How about the key between Ctrl and Alt?
Post by: Nai_Calus on Tue, 17 November 2015, 09:29:37: It depends on what I'm doing.

Alt on its own while typing - Drop down with ring finger.
Alt on its own while gaming - Drop down with middle finger.
Alt-F4 - Move entire hand, thumb on alt, reach for F4 with middle finger
Alt-Tab - Move entire hand over, thumb on alt, ring on tab.

I can't actually hit alt with my thumb without moving my hand first. I can juuuuust barely reach it if I force my thumb to curl as far as it will go but it's painful. I hit the spacebar generally between V and B and rest to the right side of B. Large hands.

Windows key - Pinky. Most commonly used as window+r which is just the right distance to use pinky/index comfortably.
Title: Re: How do you press Alt? How about the key between Ctrl and Alt?
Post by: RyanArr on Thu, 19 November 2015, 22:00:41: Thumbs only for the whole mod/space row, except for the control keys which I don't use, because control is next to A. Mac user and Vim user.
Title: Re: How do you press Alt? How about the key between Ctrl and Alt?
Post by: e_l_tang on Sat, 21 November 2015, 23:06:49: Quote from: RyanArr on Thu, 19 November 2015, 22:00:41
Thumbs only for the whole mod/space row, except for the control keys which I don't use, because control is next to A. Mac user and Vim user.

How do you use shortcuts involving more than one key on the spacebar row then? For me, the control keys are actually very useful when editing text.

I am also a Mac user and I use my thumbs for the command keys, my middle fingers for the option keys, and my ring fingers for the control keys. My left thumb also handles the spacebar.
Title: Re: How do you press Alt? How about the key between Ctrl and Alt?
Post by: RyanArr on Mon, 23 November 2015, 13:25:36: Quote from: Eric-T on Sat, 21 November 2015, 23:06:49
How do you use shortcuts involving more than one key on the spacebar row then? For me, the control keys are actually very useful when editing text.

I am also a Mac user and I use my thumbs for the command keys, my middle fingers for the option keys, and my ring fingers for the control keys. My left thumb also handles the spacebar.

I cover both Command and Option with my left thumb if I need to press them together. For Command+Space I use the left thumb for Command and right thumb for Space. As for Control, I was slightly imprecese above, I do use Control, but it's mapped on the Caps Lock key. I don't use the Control key that's in the bottom row.
Title: Re: How do you press Alt? How about the key between Ctrl and Alt?
Post by: phruitpie on Tue, 24 November 2015, 15:35:19: I exclusively use my thumb for left alt, right alt never gets any love.