Purchased Das Keyboard Ultimate - Need some feedback please.

[RagingForces]

Greetings everyone. First i'd like to say thank you to geekhack for all the great knowledge I was able to pick up as a long time lurker.

So let me give some history and context in order to make this post more sensible. I started typing on both a IBM Model M (black logo) and a Apple IIe. Most of my typing history stems from those two keyboards. Then for some ridiculous reason I switched to a Microsoft Natural (the original, I loved), and then subsequently to a Saitek Eclipse II. I know, both membranes were not the best choices after coming from the land of M.

Anyhoo, as time went on the Eclipse II ran out of membrane stamina and I found myself needing to acquire a new keyboard. I researched between many different sites (especially geekhack!) and came up with a Das Keyboard Ultimate (Blue Switches) as the keyboard that would work for me.

The things I was after was, in this order:
- mechanical switches or buckling springs
- all black (dark grey would have been ok)
- blank keycaps (i'm a touch typist, who plans to learn Colemak and keep Qwerty skills)
- It was very subtle design with no really bright lights.
- Hearkening back to the M, I thought I wanted audible and tactile feedback. More on this in a bit.

So thats brings us to the present. I've received my Das Keyboard Ultimate Blue and have some fairly damning findings about it.

First, despite doing a lot of research (including Youtube for video/sound reference) I find the noise put out by the MX Blue's to be a bit too loud once you really start going. It's not only the noise level, but the noise pitch is just so high on this switch. The videos i've seen really don't do it justice compared to real life. My hearing is also very sharp, so this is probably affecting me more than most. I believe this is fairly easy to resolve, as a brown/black/red switch would resolve this issue.

Second, the actuation point really bothers me. To be honest, I overestimated how much force it was going to take to actuate a key. I also overestimated how much tactile feedback I would receive from the Blue's. I originally thought that this switch would give me something like the buckling spring level force requirements and feedback. The MX Blue is nowhere near that level of force or feedback. It's a very delicate switch and as I'm finding out, i'm not a very delicate typist.

Third, I've decided that while I'm not exactly rough with keyboards, I do tend to bottom out every keypress whereas I see folks on Youtube reaching the actuation point of the switch and moving on. Some folks in videos tend to bottom out their keys, however others don't. I'm not sure how I feel about this because when I attempt to type without bottoming out the keys it actually induces pain as I'm staying tense. This is with a fairly ergonomic seating position. If I type normally and allow myself to bottom out the keys, I can move much faster and do not induce any additional strain.

Let me explain a bit about what i'm trying to do. I type a lot. I'm in many different forums, writing blogs, writing fictional stories, etc. That said, I also game quite a bit on the PC. I game along all genres, however primarily FPS and RPG. It's probably a 60/40 typing/gaming ratio. Maybe even 50/50 as I don't want to gimp one area over the area. Lastly, I originally went MX Blue because I had tried some MX Blacks and thought they were mushy when I first tried them on a demo at Fry's Electronics. I believe that keyboard was a Steelseries 7G.

So to sum all this up. Geekhack, I could use your help. The noise and actuation point on the Blue is driving me slightly crazy considering how I like to bottom out keys. That being said, I'm nervous about going Brown because the tactile feedback on the Blue is so light. I'm nervous about the Blacks because I remember them feeling so mushy on that 7G.

If I could have the perfect keyboard, it would be the force and feedback of a Buckling Spring, with the noise of a Topre/Brown, with the ability to game like Black. I'm guessing that keyboard doesn't really exist, however i'd love to know your thoughts.

Thank you Geekhack.

[theferenc]

Maybe try an all 55g realforce? You might like the Deck Ice/Frost keyboards, which have clears in them. Kinda like a heavy, more tactile brown -- and the only cherry switch I like.

For reference, I'm a buckling spring/topre kinda guy, but the Cherry clears are decent, especially if you want a shinier, more feature rich keyboard.

Also, I have no idea if this is even feasible for gaming, but you could always order a Unicomp.

And welcome to geekhack!

[bugfix]

I also started with the DAS and while I think that MX Blues are great for gaming, I don't really like them for typing anymore.

I then went on to BS and since thursday TOPRE. Both are great and I like them equally but perhaps both aren't really good for you because you play fairly often.

Ideally you would get a Customizer for typing and keep the DAS for gaming, but switching might be a problem.

[lootbag]

If I could have the perfect keyboard, it would be the force and feedback of a Buckling Spring, with the noise of a Topre/Brown, with the ability to game like Black. I'm guessing that keyboard doesn't really exist, however i'd love to know your thoughts.

Seems like you have described the Topre 55g switch.
You get tactility and a heavier switch which you seem to prefer.

I still use my Model M from time to time and am using it right now actually.
I know what you mean when you say the MX Brown and MX Blue are delicate switches and feel very light.
Didn't really like them that much either.

Having tried buckling spring, Cherry MX Blue and Brown, and Topre switches;
sold my MX keyboards and decided to stick with Topre and buckling spring.

I prefer Topre 45g but have tried out a 55g board briefly.
They feel more crisp than MX Black but the tactility will not be up at buckling spring levels.
One last thing, I love to bottom out on the Topre boards as well.
I disliked trying to not bottom out on Cherry MX boards because it added strain to my wrists as well.

[RagingForces]

Thank you all for your responses to my questions. I seem to get the feeling there is an definite recommendation for a Realforce 55g Topre based keyboard to suit my needs/tastes.

I do have one question regarding this however. Won't the 55g be less force required (lighter) than the Cherry MX Blue in the Das? Maybe i'm not reading the specifications correctly, but it appears the Cherry MX Blue requires ~59g of force, vs. the Topre's 55g?

Also, will it be possible to buy a 86U/87U with 55g? I am US based, and have looked on EliteKeyboards as well as eBay, but am turning up empty handed. I'd really like a Tenkeyless board if possible.

Lastly, I do not necessarily want a shiny or feature rich keyboard. I'm after this for the keys, little else. I would like it to be black/dark however.

[keyboardlover]

Also, will it be possible to buy a 86U/87U with 55g? I am US based, and have looked on EliteKeyboards as well as eBay, but am turning up empty handed. I'd really like a Tenkeyless board if possible.

Lastly, I do not necessarily want a shiny or feature rich keyboard. I'm after this for the keys, little else. I would like it to be black/dark however.

You won't find a 55g 86U. There are some 55g 87U's but if you want NIB you'll have to order it from Korea using a buying agent and I'm sure it will cost well over $300. Your only other hope pretty much is finding one used that someone is willing to part with.

IMHO, cherry clears are very close though. You can find them in both the Deck Legend (Ice) Tactile and the Cherry clear keyboard in my sig. Both of those keyboards are 6-kro so they are good boards for gaming. Neither are tenkeyless though.

[elef]

When did you get the das? I think you should probably give it some more time.
You say the switch is too light for you, but you'll probably get used to it in a few weeks and may well end up preferring it to buckling springs, which are pretty heavy in the grand scheme of things.
Same with bottoming out - just use the keyboard for a few weeks, and don't force yourself to try and not bottom out. As you yourself noted, that just makes you tense, which isn't a good way to type.

[RagingForces]

Here's a quick update to the thread.

I've continued to use the Das Keyboard Ultimate in an attempt to acclimate to the Cherry MX Blue. The keyboard has grown on me a little bit, and the lightness of the switch is still not favorable but is not quite as bad as the first few days. Unfortunately, the noise is simply unbearable. I thought the audible feedback was going to be a good thing, but I underestimated just how much clatter I would generate when typing at speed. I average between 85-95 wpm, and at that rate, its truly irritating. The faces my wife makes if I don't shut my door while typing are not of the positive variety either, lol.

To give myself something else to compare to, I've gone and placed an order for a Deck Legend Frost, Tactile. The keyboard is flashy, but it turns out you can dim the backlight down very far or turn it off altogether. I'm very excited to see how the MX Clear performs and sounds. The videos and audio samples i've been able to find indicate it might perform better for my situation.

I decided to go this route instead of jumping straight to the Topre based keyboard for a couple reasons. First of all, I had read so many positive reviews of the Deck Legend during my research that I felt obligated to at least check it out. The keyboard has a very strong reputation and I wanted to give it a fair shot. Second, it would be ideal if I were able to compare the MX Blue and MX Clear side-by-side. The feedback even in this thread indicates that it should be a much closer match to the style kb i'm after.

As you may have noticed, this keyboard journey is not only for my benefit, but also the wife as well. She will be receiving an upgrade based upon all this research. So as you can imagine, jumping straight at a dual Realforce investment isn't necessarily the most prudent thing to do. I consider that especially true if the particular model i'm most interested in requires me to special order an imported model.

That being said, i'm very excited about the Deck Legend's arrival and the ability to compare the Das and the Deck side by side is going to be excellent.

[bugfix]

I decided to go this route instead of jumping straight to the Topre based keyboard for a couple reasons.

Probably a good idea because it is also a very light switch.

[theferenc]

I think the Deck will be a good fit, especially considering the prices involved. Not that the Deck is cheap, by any means, but still less than an imported 87u, by a long shot.

You may want to consider the 103U-UW for your wife, maybe? It's a variable weighted keyboard, which is nice for typing, and isn't much more expensive than the Deck (about $30 at current prices). It is a full size keyboard, though. And white. And variable weighted, making gaming hard.

But they are a pleasure to type on.

[keyboardlover]

Agreed that the Deck is a good choice. Enjoy!

[keyb_gr]

Yup, clears should be a better match for an apparently heavy typist. I can imagine the racket that plate mounted blues would make in such a situation.

[stuiees]

I think the Deck will be a good fit, especially considering the prices involved. Not that the Deck is cheap, by any means, but still less than an imported 87u, by a long shot.

You may want to consider the 103U-UW for your wife, maybe? It's a variable weighted keyboard, which is nice for typing, and isn't much more expensive than the Deck (about $30 at current prices). It is a full size keyboard, though. And white. And variable weighted, making gaming hard.

But they are a pleasure to type on.

Just my opinion, but I do not find gaming hard on my variable RF.  I was uber concerned about it before I ordered it, but took the plunge anyway with Ripsters all 45g mod bookmarked just incase.  I have not felt the NEED to do the mod because unless specifically trying to notice the variable weight, I just dont.  Even when I am stricktly using w,a,s,d I am usually too imersed in the game to think about noticing (I dont notice it unless I think to feel for it).  BTW I game HARD at top levels with my w,a,s,d keys.

[theferenc]

Thanks stuiees. I admit I was simply repeating what I've read, in that people complain about the variable weight for gaming.

Then again, I am still thoroughly amused by the KRO obsession people seem to have. I'm a Model M guy, and have no rollover issues to speak of. I tend to only play single player games, though, when I game at all (Dragon Age, Diablo, etc.).

But I still think the 103U-UW would be a valid/good choice for the wife, unless she has identical requirements (tenkeyless, etc.). Then again, my SO really enjoys the sound of my keyboards, so what do I know.

[keyboardlover]

Then again, I am still thoroughly amused by the KRO obsession people seem to have. I'm a Model M guy, and have no rollover issues to speak of. I tend to only play single player games, though, when I game at all (Dragon Age, Diablo, etc.).

Play a FPS shooter where you have to duck while strafing and things like that. You can't do that on a 2-kro keyboard.

[theferenc]

What I meant was that it amuses me how much a keyboard choice is driven by gaming, rather than ability to actually get work done.

There's nothing wrong with that, it just amuses me.

[keyboardlover]

Fair enough. GeekHackers tend to be easily amused.

Take the name "Noppoo" for example.

[itlnstln]

What I meant was that it amuses me how much a keyboard choice is driven by gaming, rather than ability to actually get work done.

There's nothing wrong with that, it just amuses me.

I agree.  Don't worry that they are designed for entering text.  It's like using a bus to haul furniture.  You can do it, but a truck would have been better.

I found that purpose-built devices, like the Nostromo N52, are better.

[Lethal Squirrel]

Give the keyboard a week or two and you will find yourself in love with it. that was the case with my first cherry blue keyboard and allot of the people who use it. all my friends and my relatives were like "why does this keyboard sound loud ass hell and feel funny?" now my friends are looking into buying their first mechanical.

[itlnstln]

Give the keyboard a week or two and you will find yourself in love with it. that was the case with my first cherry blue keyboard and allot of the people who use it. all my friends and my relatives were like "why does this keyboard sound loud ass hell and feel funny?" now my friends are looking into buying their first mechanical.

This goes for pretty much any mechanical switch.  A lot of folks will be very used to slamming rubber domes into a membrane, and when they first type on a mechanical, it will be a little odd.  Once you get used to the different force curve, you will probably learn to appreciate the more precise feel (most of us do) and find that you are generally less fatigued.  Beyond that, noise is a little more subjective.  Some people like the clicks, others don't.

[RagingForces]

Give the keyboard a week or two and you will find yourself in love with it. that was the case with my first cherry blue keyboard and allot of the people who use it. all my friends and my relatives were like "why does this keyboard sound loud ass hell and feel funny?" now my friends are looking into buying their first mechanical.

I think its important to draw the difference between "in love with mechanical keyboards" and "in love with very particular attributes" that you are after *in* your mechanical keyboard.

For instance, I started on mechanical keyboards, so I already had the luxury of knowing what that experience was like.

The fundamental topic at hand is compromise. More specifically, this is one person's very specific set of compromises. I'm trying to find one device (preferably!) that can satisfy very particular tastes and not give up too far on the feel that I am acclimate to. For my very particular requirements, this is a fun and interesting journey i'm exploring.

Let's not let the conversation dissolve into bickering over personal tastes vs. what we *think* the masses like or feel. That's just utterly pointless to this thread.

[itlnstln]

Don't worry, I don't like Cherry blues, either; the sound sucks.  You made a good choice in getting the Legend Tactile.  I don't think you would like the Topre based on what you were looking for.

[typo]

when i got the pro s i was sure i would return it. it is now the only keyboard i have used for many months. i no longer find it loud nor do i bottom out. mx blue is my favorite switch. i think the das keyboard just looks awesome like darth vader. it is also very solid. my stock keycaps wore off their "overfill" very quickly but the infill remained. i then got all ds and to me this is the ultimate keyboard. even though it has legends(pun).

i don't want people to start saying i have anything to do with metadot. i don't. i just love to sing the praises of what i love. my topre's and model m's are collecting dust. as is my filco and adesso. if you read the story of the guy who designed it, his story is my story. only difference is he made the product and i bought it

[nocturn4l3030]

ive had the 55g and even thouh charts say otherwise, theyre definitely alot heavier...my fingers get tired after a while. i have buckling sorings and my fingers get even more tired. the blues ans 55g are no where near ea other imo because the pressure to push the 55g has a constant pressure whe makes it feel more stiff.

excuse the typos, typing on cell

[typo]

so, can some of these keys cause ocupational injuries? i wonder if osha says anything about it.

i find to make a mx blue register takes much less pressure than a dome or anything. that is of course if you just press them just enough. do not bottom out.

even the realforce and especially model m,unicomp seem to take much more pressure. nocturn, i guess you just confirmed that then.

[msiegel]

my topre's and model m's are collecting dust

quick, robin -- to the classifieds!

[typo]

no way. i never sell anything. then one day i am all sad and miss something. i used to sell/get rid of things. then years later i was like "where did that go".
a long time ago a vowed to never have that problem again.
don't worry, i do throw out the trash lol.

[msiegel]

[RagingForces]

So, after a few days of owning the Deck Legend Frost (Tactile), I can report that I find it to be a marked improvement over the MX Blues in the Das Ultimate.

That said, I should probably come clean with a few facts. The Deck keyboard is a thing of beauty. The dark gray finish, the font used on the keys, and the frost (white) colored lighting is absolutely excellent. The Cherry MX Clear's on the other hand are a mixed bag.

When I first unboxed the Deck and set it up, I banged out a couple sentences into notepad. To be completely transparent, I had a really negative initial reaction because I thought the switches had a "cheap" feel to them. I still feel this way to a certain extent, but the MX Clear are such a substantial improvement over the MX Blue that its of little contest between them. As I've spent the better part of a week becoming acclimated to this new keyboard, i've begun to notice a few patterns.

One, is that the keys are surely stiff! After a couple hours typing or gaming you really feel it. The switches/springs put up a good fight and you'll know when its time to take a break. There is such a massive difference between the MX Blues and the MX Clears in this regard.

Two, is that the actuation point still doesn't feel "right". Please don't confuse "getting used to it" for "feeling right" as the MX Clear's just don't. The actuation point seems to come too early, but thankfully the reset point is at the same point. So double pressing keys, or typing G*oo*gle feels right. I wish the actuation point came a little later. This is probably because i'd prefer to just bottom the keys out, but I'm finding there are many keys I won't bottom out while typing. Generally the further the key is away from the "home row (asdf jkl;) the more likely you are to only hit the actuation point and not bottom out. It's at this point where you realize that only hitting the actuation point is what causes the keys to feel cheap, as there isn't enough pop or snap feedback given when you're really going at speed on this switch.

The Deck has a little flex in its design. At first this put me off a bit, because again I was expecting Das level build quality. In terms of electronics and features, the Deck is head and shoulders above. In terms of build quality, i'd give the nod to the Das with the exception of the keycaps which are utterly superior on the Deck.

This learning experience has been fun, but I'm beginning to wonder if Cherry switches are for me. Thats 3 popular flavors i've tried and none have really clicked with me. Pun intended. I may try a Topre, but only if the Deck doesn't cut it after a few more days/weeks of acclimating.

Thoughts? =)

*EDIT* - Sound Impressions

I forgot to talk about the sound! The sound of the Deck (MX Clear) is very tolerable. It isn't a quiet keyboard, however the sound it outputs is more a hushed motion. It is quiet to the point where my wife can sleep in the same room that I am typing, no matter how fast I'm typing. Thats a very good thing.

[theferenc]

You won't be the only who feels Cherry switches aren't particularly nice to type on. Try a Topre, try some ALPS, and try some buckling springs.

I'd get the topre last, though, as it is generally the most expensive. You can get a used Model M for under $35 shipped lately, an Apple Extended Keyboard II (for dampened ALPS) for about the same, or a new Unicomp for about $80, I think, but a Topre is going to set you back at least $200.

[bugfix]

You won't be the only who feels Cherry switches aren't particularly nice to type on.

Indeed. To quote 7bit:

My Cherry blue feels like typing on egg-shells compared to the Model M.

[RagingForces]

I am very glad to be able to make this post. Since this journey began, I have been able to test many keyboards that interested me from years past. I mainly stuck to the Cherry MX line of switches, and was able to test the Blue, Black, Clear and Brown switches over the past few months. I never did get to test a Topre, but maybe its better that I don't need to. Considering I bought each of the boards I was interested in, that would have been an expensive trial.

Since my last update, I tested the Deck Legend Frost in MX Clear, the Kinesis Advantage in MX Brown, and the Leopold Otaku in MX Brown. While the Deck's MX White was ok, it just didn't have the balance and speed that I was looking for. The Kinesis Advantage was truly a kb of a different color. The ergonomic style did take some getting used to, and ultimately I decided I didn't like the keyboard. All was not lost on that design however, as I learned something very useful. I *loved* the MX Brown switch! So much so that the only thing I could think of was A) Could I get the brown in a tenkeyless design? and B) Could I find a keyboard with an all black design?

So what becomes of a search for a MX Brown, Tenkeyless, and preferably all-black design? Hell of a question, with even better timing, as I looked up the Elitekeyboards website. The Leopold had a release date and better yet, they were taking pre-orders. Hell yes! I immediately put in my pre-order and a few weeks later a Leopold Otaku showed up at my door.

So looking back at my original post, I was looking for:

The things I was after was, in this order:
- mechanical switches or buckling springs
- all black (dark grey would have been ok)
- blank keycaps (i'm a touch typist, who plans to learn Colemak and keep Qwerty skills)
- It was very subtle design with no really bright lights.
- Hearkening back to the M, I thought I wanted audible and tactile feedback. More on this in a bit.

Check, Check, Check, Check, Check.

I can say that as both a gamer and a typist, I absolutely LOVE this keyboard. It is extremely quick, very elegant, and carries a large quantity of quality that I am able to enjoy with every keystroke. The sound the thing makes is fantastic and whether I bottom out the keys or not, it feels great.

To anyone searching for a keyboard the truly nails the areas of typing speed, typing efficiency, quality construction, and gaming ability, then look no further than this keyboard. This thing is an absolute dream.

Thank you GH, thank you EK. I would not have found it without your help.

I like to end my articles with a sense of irony, so here's a couple bullet points to that order. The Leopold Otaku ended up being the last keyboard I would test, and had the added benefit of being the least expensive keyboard of all of them. Also, the Deck Legend that I fell in and out of love with ended up being my wife's keyboard. She absolutely loves it.