the audiophile effect (?)

[SuffixTreeMonkey]

Here's a controversial topic for you:

I've recently bought a G80-3000, so I'm "one of you guys" (but still a big newb), and I like the keyboard a lot, but I'm wondering how come this forum is (subjectively) often rooting for the Filcos and Topres.

I mean, besides things like different key switches, NKRO, and the fact that some keyboards aren't available on some continents, is there really a difference between say the Filcos (which costs ~90£ from thekeyboardco) and some of the cheaper keyboards? (I've got mine for 60Euro, which is a bargain compared to the Filco price).

The reason I called the thread "the audiophile effect" is because that community is known for buying overpriced tech with little to no measurable gain in sound quality. Since the audiophiles themselves would never admit they are unable to hear the difference, I doubt I'd get that answer here.

Looking forward to all the answers! And I'm sorry if I offended your amazing, expensive keyboard. :-)

[noodles256]

I bought ath-m50 and a $25 fios amp to a total of $150

My other option was dr. dre monsters for $300.

ATH-M50s blow it out of the water as well

I don't think it is that overpriced.

[Variable]

I have no doubt that there is an element of a 'new tech high', where the newest gear you get gets you so excited that you're sure it blows everything else away.

but I also have no doubt that this leo I'm typing on is much nicer than the blackwidow I had ten minutes ago. and that the grado headphones I'm planning to get in a few weeks will be a step up from the base model I have right now.

so I think it's a little of both. I also think people who spend hours on forums discussing this stuff are the most likely to detect subtle differences and have those differences matter to them.

but then I ALSO think people who spend hours on these forums are going to look the hardest for differences in higher level stuff and arguably find it even when it isn't there

[hcry4]

The increase in perceivable quality gains tapers off very quickly with a lot of products. I just cannot go back to **** quality keyboards, earphones/headphones, etc...

[MrSneis]

I'd say it's an elitist attitude though, I am new too.  From my experience Filcos are not god's gift to keyboards or anything, they have issues too.

BTW I've been a head-fi'er since around 2004.

[SuffixTreeMonkey]

3. High quality and/or Feature Laden Gaming Keyboards - $100 - $200- Das, Filco, and LED keyboards like the Deck/Razer/Xarmor.

Ya, I've read that. And I understand diminishing returns between 3 and 4. The difference between 2 and 3 is more interesting to me. I'm still wondering what "high quality and/or feature laden" means (besides NKRO). People here often care a lot about the shape and material of the keys, etchings and/or the "sturdiness" of the keyboard, but are those desires purely esthetic or has anyone measured any effect on their typing speed, comfort or gaming skill?

[Peter]

I've recently bought a G80-3000, so I'm "one of you guys" (but still a big newb), and I like the keyboard a lot, but I'm wondering how come this forum is (subjectively) often rooting for the Filcos and Topres.

On my keyboard, Steelseries 6gv2, the Cherry blacks are mounted on a 1.5mm steel-plate -
On your g80-3000 they aren't .
Not only does it change how the switches feel, it also increases costs,
including shipping !!
I'm not saying that plate-mounted switches are 'better', they just feel different to PCB mounted switches .
What you prefer is a subjective matter so what feels best to you IS best !

[Shuki]

It's all subjective. Some people prefer crisp base and great soundstage, whereas others love heavy base sacrificing midtones somewhat. It's all down to what you prefer.

I like my Topre, but the price is pretty outrageous and I can see why people wouldn't sink that much cash into one.

[ironman31]

I put this in the "Geekhack Mechanical Keyboard Guide".

NORMALLY within these pricepoints there are little differences.


Ducky is the obvious exception.  They Sucky.

tell me about it, I'm in the process of returning my G2

[didjamatic]

Using a HHKB Lite is fun and a great keyboard for someone wanting to try the layout, but stepping up to the HHKB Pro you get a completely different typing experience that is an upgrade in every area from tactility to durability to build quality to materials.  This is opinion but largely based on fact.

The "Audiophile effect" would be someone upgrading from a HHKB Pro $300 keyboard to the HHKB HP $4000 keyboard and writing page after page about how the sound characteristics and tactility are so improved they can taste almonds while using it... but are mostly trying to justify what they just spent and limit their buyer's remorse.

Cherry G80-3000's have great switches but not quite up to the build quality of Filcos.  Key caps aside, Filcos are very well made so you're getting something substantial for that extra cash.  If that's important to you then it's worth it.  If not, it probably isn't but if you've joined a keyboard forum it might be important to you.

I don't think viewing Filco or similar keyboards as superior to some others is an elitist, narrow minded or inaccurate point of view.  They really are a better keyboard than most.

[dracaXL]

To utilise the audiophile analogy in the realm of the Geekhackers' keyboard obsession isn't perhaps wholly appropriate, in that the audiophile effect depends on the fallibility of the auditory sensory system (i.e. the aural placebo effect) and generally the inability to tangibly measure changes in system performance without a) a way of recording the frequency response of a set-up and b) a way to double-blind test the system. These latter requirements mean that most audiophiles can't be bothered to invest the time and effort that goes into fairly comparing their gear, hence allowing buyer's remorse to justify retarded purchases (like four thousand dollar foil shielded cables of IQ-attenuation).

With keyboards you've got a far more tangible and concrete way of comparing performance with A/B tests, and the sensory facet of touch is not so easily fooled; generally, something feels better or it doesn't. Your hands hurt whilst typing on it, or they don't. You suffer RSI symptoms on one layout, or you don't on another. Also, actuation force etc are metrics that are immediately measurable using something as simple as placing a few nickels on the keycap - not as difficult to do as attempting to record and compare FR, for example.

[keyb_gr]

I've recently bought a G80-3000, so I'm "one of you guys" (but still a big newb), and I like the keyboard a lot, but I'm wondering how come this forum is (subjectively) often rooting for the Filcos and Topres.

Filcos were, for quite a while, the least expensive new mechanicals with Cherry switches (plate-mounted at that) and no major flaws available in the US. Plus, you could get them in tenkeyless versions and with NKRO.

G80-3000? Pretty much restricted to Europe, save for some special order types. Minimal construction with PCB-mounted switches that doesn't feel all that solid - in return, it's very service-friendly. Keycaps on light grey samples quite thin and flimsy-sounding, but lasered lettering holds up pretty well.
Scorpius M10? Lousy reliability, very common soldering problems.
Razer Blackwidow? Quickly fading lettering and other reliability issues, glossy surface. Lettering seems to have been reworked now.
Adesso? Some lettering problems, too, from what I remember...
Das? Solid board, normal pricing, glossy surface is not for everyone.
Steelseries 6Gv2/7G? Only comes with MX blacks, big L-shaped Enter.

Topres are a different story altogether. The keyswitch technology isn't used anywhere else (except in even more expensive gear), plus build quality is on a high level (e.g. dye-sub'd PBT keys), and they're made in Japan.

(The first two items also apply to Unicomp, but pricing and build quality both are lower, plus they don't seem to be making a lot of money.)

Generally, in mechanical keyboards, you're still pretty much getting what you pay for. Compare that to fancy gaming 'domes.

The reason I called the thread "the audiophile effect" is because that community is known for buying overpriced tech with little to no measurable gain in sound quality.

Or even loss, for that matter. You can spend arbitrary amounts of money on components with pedestrian performance, or in places where it makes no difference.

I don't really see that happening with keyboards though. Their real-life performance can be evaluated a little more easily than audio quality. Plus, audiophiles would be a lot less misinformed if subjectivism hadn't gradually taken over in the 1980s. (Which had a lot to do with making money.) Thankfully we have the interwebs these days.

[digitalleftovers]

I think others have touched on this, but I will try to summarize it.

Although it may be difficult, people should not assume that better or best, always mean everything else is bad.  No one should ever put someone down for choosing a Das over a filco.  A topre isn't better than anything, its just unique and deserves to be recognized as such.  A filco isn't better because its more expensive, it just lacks cost effective distribution in most of the world.

The only place on geekhack that I believe the "Silver braided Cabling" audiophile analogy applies, is with the truely custom stuff.  If anyone on this forum even says "CNC aluminium cases are better than ANY other case, OMFG!!111," I will tell them where they can put their CNC aluminium.  Would I want one for the hell of it?  If I had that much money?  Sure.  But, if I had that much money, I'd probably also buy a silver cable so I could say "look guys, a silver cable!"  I would not put anyone down for not having either.

I have a ducky, and I'm not embarassed!

[celery]

You'll know that it's time to pull out the audiophile analogy when we start claiming that placing a tactile-resonance feedback enhanced sounding granite slab in the southeast corner of the room improves the typing experience.

It is OBVIOUSLY supposed to go on the west wall, orthogonal to the wrist line. DUH.

[digitalleftovers]

You'll know that it's time to pull out the audiophile analogy when we start claiming that placing a tactile-resonance feedback enhanced sounding granite slab in the southeast corner of the room improves the typing experience.

It is OBVIOUSLY supposed to go on the west wall, orthogonal to the wrist line. DUH.

I prefer Tiger Iron. Lol.

[Mr. Perfect]

This reminds me of the Topre keychain world trip thread. Many people who have had the opportunity to try a Topre free of charge mention how it feels like a high quality rubber dome. People who own a Topre occasionally post about how they want to sexually molest their keyboard. Who's right?

You'll know that it's time to pull out the audiophile analogy when we start claiming that placing a tactile-resonance feedback enhanced sounding granite slab in the southeast corner of the room improves the typing experience.

It is OBVIOUSLY supposed to go on the west wall, orthogonal to the wrist line. DUH.

And level with the top of the kneecap. Don't forget the vertical space!

[Chobopants]

This reminds me of the Topre keychain world trip thread. Many people who have had the opportunity to try a Topre free of charge mention how it feels like a high quality rubber dome. People who own a Topre occasionally post about how they want to sexually molest their keyboard. Who's right?



And level with the top of the kneecap. Don't forget the vertical space!

I own one and freely admit that it's a high quality rubber dome. That said, everything about it is as solid as possible, even moreso than my Filco I'd say. The keycaps are easily the nicest I've ever felt (on a keyboard) and the landing on the keys is really nice for my tendons if I'm in "slam mode" but if I'm boob clouding I prefer my Filco.

Given that, $245+ for it is a bit of a stretch and the only reason I ended up buying it was raw curiosity + alcohol.

[digitalleftovers]

I think someone should try a blind test.  Put the same caps on a Razer (Cherry Blue) a Ducky (Cherry Blue) and a filco (Cherry Blue).  I want to know how people would rate them.  There would be obvious preference one way or the other for the different stabilizers, but I'd be most interested to know how people prefer one plate type over another.

Oh... Thats what crazy audiophiles do with cables.  FAIL.  I guess we will just have to discuss forever about why we like one over the other.

[The Solutor]

Here's a controversial topic for you:

I've recently bought a G80-3000, so I'm "one of you guys" (but still a big newb), and I like the keyboard a lot, but I'm wondering how come this forum is (subjectively) often rooting for the Filcos and Topres.

I mean, besides things like different key switches, NKRO, and the fact that some keyboards aren't available on some continents, is there really a difference between say the Filcos (which costs ~90£ from thekeyboardco) and some of the cheaper keyboards? (I've got mine for 60Euro, which is a bargain compared to the Filco price).

The reason I called the thread "the audiophile effect" is because that community is known for buying overpriced tech with little to no measurable gain in sound quality. Since the audiophiles themselves would never admit they are unable to hear the difference, I doubt I'd get that answer here.

Looking forward to all the answers! And I'm sorry if I offended your amazing, expensive keyboard. :-)

I think that your opinion is right.
There's some dislike not supported by facts to anything that sounds not expensive or commercial, but I think that this stupid behavior is inevitable in any niche market.

What we need is to be smart enough to filter the facts from the  "hot air", when reading about mechs...

[AgentHeavy]

Both audiophile and mechs keyboards are sick communities

[theferenc]

As many have said, there are often tangible differences between even keyboards that use the same switch.
 
Cherry uses nice keys, but have lots of flex due to being PCB mounted.
 
Filco apparently had some controller issues, that EK shielded his buyers from, and uses pretty crappy keys, but is otherwise very well built.
 
The Model M is built like a tank, but is generally older, and not consistent between models due to spring fatigue. This can be avoided by just buying from Unicomp, but the looks are...lacking. I love mine, but it's definitely not for everyone. Layout customizability with a bit of work and some software is trivial.
 
Ducky makes an inexpensive board, but has reliability issues. And crappy keys.
 
Noppoo doesn't work on a Mac.
 
The RealForce is amazingly well built, and amazingly expensive. They do feel amazing though. Not worth the money to many people. A bargain at twice the price in the minds of many others.
 
The HHKB is not quite as well built as the RealForce, but in the same league price wise. However, it's compact form and UNIX layout is a huge draw factor for most of its owners -- myself included. It's only about the price of 5-6 new Sun type 6 keyboards, which is about the number that I wore out in the 2 years prior to purchasing it. It still feels brand new.
 
The Deck is a modder's delight, in that it can be opened without voiding the warranty. They are also the only readily available keyboard with Cherry MX clears.
 
With the exception of the Topre switch keyboards, most of them are in roughly the same price range. You pay more for some based on quality, some based on name, some based on size, some based on features.
 
It really all comes down to what you want out of your keyboard. I use Model Ms and a HHKB, all of which have the UNIX layout. That makes me crazy by some folks' standard, completely rational by others' standard.
 
I'll be honest, I am considering a second HHKB purchase. Yes it's expensive, but for the way I use my keyboard, it's worth the price. I am on it 12-14 hours a day, writing code and my dissertation, plus random chatting and commenting on these boards. At this point, that puts it at roughly $0.40/hour of use, based on my purchase date and price.
 
For the record, I think buying a Cherry switch keyboard is wasting money, but that's because I find it uncomfortable to type on, so for me, it is a waste of money. And just like the RealForce line, they all have the wrong layout. For you, it might be amazing. You might hate BS keyboards, while your neighbor may love them.
 
With something like a keyboard, especially if you're a heavy user, many of us are willing to spend as much as necessary to have one that is comfortable and long lasting. I know I am.

Edited to fix plate/PCB conflation. Thought one, wrote the other. Oops.

[Soarer]

Phooey. (edit: to the OP and the post before theferenc's)

No mechanical keyboards are mass market, so even at the G80-3000 price point you're looking at more than 5x the price of a common rubber dome. The extra 50% for a Filco is very little by comparison, and what you get for that is tangible - plate mounting, metal case, NKRO - hardly esoteric stuff!

[ch_123]

Modern Cherry G80s are a bit flimsy compared to something like the Filco. Some people may prefer the Filco's plate mounted switches. Nonetheless, I wouldn't consider a Cherry G80 a bad keyboard, or a Filco an amazing one.

The Topres are in a league of their own in terms of currently produced keyboards, but it's very much debatable as to whether you are getting what you pay for.

Cherry uses nice keys, but have lots of flex due to being plate mounted.

Cherry makes the PCB mounted ones, Filco the plate mounted ones. Think about it, why would plate mounted cause more flex than just a PCB?

Filco apparently had some controller issues, that EK shielded his buyers from, and uses pretty crappy keys, but is otherwise very well built.

You're thinking of the Filco Zero. The Cherry Filco keyboards have perfectly sound controllers.

[theferenc]

I actually was thinking PCB mounted, not sure why I wrote plate.

And if I was thinking of the Zero, then why have there been so many threads from people who bought Filcos from PCHome or Armygroup complaining about issues? And why has Majestouch claimed to have filtered them, if there weren't issues?

For the record, I have never even encountered a Zero, but have always wanted to. But I do know my officemate has a tenkeyless Filco with browns, and has had it swapped twice due to a faulty controller.

All of this is actually beside the point. Which is that any manufactured good will have issues, and you just have to decide which compromises you are willing to make at what price.

[K5Doom]

If you want to compare keyboards to audio equipment, Monster/Bose/Wess/etc... are expensive rubber dome (let's say an expensive logitech keyboard). Filco and other mechanical keyboards are Grado/Senn/AT/BD/etc...

You can find a Monster headphone that will cost way more than the entry level Grado headphones. Yet, Grado will blow it out of the water.

[The Solutor]

If you want to compare keyboards to audio equipment, Monster/Bose/Wess/etc... are expensive rubber dome (let's say an expensive logitech keyboard). Filco and other mechanical keyboards are Grado/Senn/AT/BD/etc...

You can find a Monster headphone that will cost way more than the entry level Grado headphones. Yet, Grado will blow it out of the water.

Frankly I can't fully agree.
In the High end/HIFI market, discarding some stupid excess like nanotube/platinum/whatever cables/dampeners and so on, when you get a (say) 500$ amplifier you get surely a better amplifier than a 100$ one.


In the keyboard market, when you get a 160$ keyboard you get a keyboard that is surely more costly to build, but you absolutely haven,t any guarantee that it's better than a 30$ one.
Just for an example I think that the keyboard of the thinkpad X100e, x120e, Edge 11, is still better than almost anything else, including most of the mech keyboards out there.

If you buy one of them on ebay you will spend something like 20/30$.

[keyb_gr]

In the keyboard market, when you get a 160$ keyboard you get a keyboard that is surely more costly to build, but you absolutely haven,t any guarantee that it's better than a 30$ one.

That's the old difference between what you like (subjective) and how it measures up (objective).

There are plenty of people who like Grado headphones in spite of commonly pedestrian measurement results and low-tech build, and others preferring gear with vacuum tubes in spite of higher cost and/or worse performance. There are a few people who don't like MX blues and prefer ALPS, too.

All subjective evaluation aside, there are a number of objective criteria defining a "well-working keyboard" - sensible layout, acceptable force levels / force-displacement characteristic, negligible off-center friction even on the big keys, reliable actuation, well-readable and durable lettering, and so on. That basically is the DIN 45500 of keyboards. Anything beyond that is a matter of personal taste or other requirements.

[The Solutor]

That's the old difference between what you like (subjective) and how it measures up (objective).

There are plenty of people who like Grado headphones in spite of commonly pedestrian measurement results and low-tech build, and others preferring gear with vacuum tubes in spite of higher cost and/or worse performance. There are a few people who don't like MX blues and prefer ALPS, too.

All subjective evaluation aside, there are a number of objective criteria defining a "well-working keyboard" - sensible layout, acceptable force levels / force-displacement characteristic, negligible off-center friction even on the big keys, reliable actuation, well-readable and durable lettering, and so on. That basically is the DIN 45500 of keyboards. Anything beyond that is a matter of personal taste or other requirements.

Entirely correct, but either way you measure a Topre keyboard its price is not justified by anything.

It's just a recursive way to price a product.

It's costly because is exclusive and is exclusive because its costly.

At least the cost of a cherry keyboard, like it or dislike it, is justified by the production costs

[ch_123]

This reminds me of the Topre keychain world trip thread. Many people who have had the opportunity to try a Topre free of charge mention how it feels like a high quality rubber dome. People who own a Topre occasionally post about how they want to sexually molest their keyboard. Who's right?!

A single switch by itself isn't really a meaningful indicator of how a switch with that keyboard might feel like. For one, Kishy told me that the keychain key he tried bottomed out really hard. Just about anyone who types on a Topre keyboard says that they bottom out very softly. This isn't just applicable to Topres, there are people are prefer plate mounted Cherry switches over PCB mounted ones and vice-versa because the way in which they are mounted impacts on the feel.

Entirely correct, but either way you measure a Topre keyboard its price is not justified by anything.

It's just a recursive way to price a product.

It's costly because is exclusive and is exclusive because its costly.

At least the cost of a cherry keyboard, like it or dislike it, is justified by the production costs

Care to elaborate as to why a Cherry is justified by production cost and a Topre is not? Topres are much better built than most Cherry keyboards out there, and have a far more elaborate contact mechanism that pushes up the price.

[The Solutor]

Care to elaborate as to why a Cherry is justified by production cost and a Topre is not?

Come on, a topre keyboard is just a membrane keyboard, you have just to build a pcb and a bubble silicon membrane on top of it.

The only addition is the conical spring, which is not an area 51 element.

To build a cherry you have to assembly every single switch, then you have to drill the pcb, then you have to put all the switches in place, then you have to solder the switches and I'm not so sure that this operation can be done whit a single pass wave soldering.

Really there's no reason that can justify the topre's price, other than the patent that covers the switch itself, which is not part of the keyboard feeling.

[ch_123]

Come on, a topre keyboard is just a membrane keyboard, you have just to build a pcb and a bubble silicon membrane on top of it.

What are you on about? There's no membrane inside a Topre keyboard. I've even dismantled one and no sign of a membrane to be seen.

[The Solutor]

What are you on about? There's no membrane inside a Topre keyboard. I've even dismantled one and no sign of a membrane to be seen.

How you call the gray silicone thing under the keys ?

[The Solutor]

A dome.

 Ok, call it dome.

Is still way cheaper element to build and to assemble than a mechanical switch.

[ch_123]

No membrane in a Topre. Has capacitive contacts in it.



Expensive things those capacitive keyboards are. IBM claimed that going from capacitive buckling springs to membrane buckling springs cut the production cost of their keyboards by 50%.

I'm somewhat unconvinced that Cherry switches really cost that much to make. Few plastic parts, a spring and a metal leaf, probably machine assembled. No need to worry about oscillators and signal sensors like a capacitive keyboard requires you to do.

[ch_123]

Doesn't have the feeling of oneness with cup rubber.

Chinese junk...

[The Solutor]

No membrane in a Topre.

"Membrane", actually, is the the wrong therm to define both the silicone springs or the flexible contact matrix used on the cheapest keyboards.

The term membrane should be used for something porous.

But if you accept this term to describe a subtle flexible plastic foil you should also accept it to describe a subtle rubber/silicone one.

BTW beside the term meaning i think you got what i mean.

[ch_123]

Either way, your point was of questionable validity. Capacitive keyboards have always been more expensive than even individual electric switch keyboards.

In fact, if you start considering the slider and slider housing above the rubber dome, the Topre switch probably has as many parts as a Cherry MX switch. Sure you have to solder Cherry switches on to the board, but at least the board is a standard board with a few traces, and not something that has to implement a large number of capacitive sensing elements.

[gregh]

I don't think you can truly compare this forum/scene to an audiophile forum/scene.

I'd wager that a lot of the people here are professionals who use their keybords for 8+ hours today, and make good money doing so. The highest end keyboards that are dealt with here, max out at about $275-$300. Most are in the range of $75 - $150.

That's chump change for a lot of working adults.

I have read about audiophiles spending $500 on a new knob for their receiver, or $10,000 speakers, etc. I'm sure most don't use these things for 8-12 hours per day and make money from doing so.

Having said that, keyboard feel is very subjective and I can see your point. From my experience, the cheaper keyboards do have lower build quality than some of the higher end ones, such as Topres.

Overall, I just don't think it's practical to compare a scene that tops out at $300, with a scene that tops out at God only knows what obscene price.

So I would say you're kind of comparing Apples to Oranges. They're both fruits, but that's as close as they come.

[The Solutor]

Either way, your point was of questionable validity. Capacitive keyboards have always been more expensive than even individual electric switch keyboards.

For no reason other than patent costs (held by very few companies) .

[ch_123]

So why did the companies who made capacitive keyboards move away from capacitive  switching to either individual microswitches or membrane contacts?

[The Solutor]

It's just LIKE a audiophile forum.  It's FUN to argue.

You're all wrong.

Means that if I agree with you I will banned ?
:smile:

[panda-R]

OMZG MY ToPRES FEEL JUST LIKE A RUBBER DOME! I've BEEN HAD!

[The Solutor]

So why did the companies who made capacitive keyboards move away from capacitive  switching to either individual microswitches or membrane contacts?

Likely because the reliability issues on the earlier designs due to the ambient variations.

Do you remember when in the late 80s, the coolest thing was the soft touch keyboards, initially shipped only on the high end tv sets and HIFI, later widespread and later disappeared completely ?

[The Solutor]

OMZG MY ToPRES FEEL JUST LIKE A RUBBER DOME! I've BEEN HAD!

 Indeed It's a rubber dome keyboard, the different feeling is due mainly to the shape of the dome an the added spring.

Surely not because it has a capacitive switch.

Put a topre dome+spring on top of a membrane and you will get almost the same feeling.

[ch_123]

Likely because the reliability issues on the earlier designs due to the ambient variations.

Ah, that explains why they replaced one of the most reliable contact mechanisms with less reliable ones.

I guess the IBM patent talking about the dramatic production cost cuts was completely misleading?

Indeed It's a rubber dome keyboard, the different feeling is due mainly to the shape of the dome an the added spring.

Surely not because it has a capacitive switch.

Put a topre dome+spring on top of a membrane and you will get almost the same feeling.

No one said that the capacitive contacts were the reason why they felt different, merely the reason why they are expensive.

Care to explain how you could adapt a mebrane rubber dome keyboard to work with a spring between the dome and the membrane?

[AgentHeavy]

Entirely correct, but either way you measure a Topre keyboard its price is not justified by anything.

It's just a recursive way to price a product.

It's costly because is exclusive and is exclusive because its costly.

At least the cost of a cherry keyboard, like it or dislike it, is justified by the production costs

Do you have one to flame it like that ?

[The Solutor]

Ah, that explains why they replaced one of the most reliable

Don't mix reliable with durable.

A capacitive switch is certainly durable because the lack of wearing physical contacts, but this doesn't mean that is also reliable, just because the capacitance of the switch can be affected by humidity, temperature, and so on.

So I SUPPOSE that years ago the electronics needed to get a capacitive switch reliable WAS costly.

Care to explain how you could adapt a mebrane rubber dome keyboard to work with a spring between the dome and the membrane?

Sorry where is the problem in doing that ?

[Oqsy]

That's why you can buy one DealExtreme HHKB killer for 15 HHKBs.

I think you meant to say that the other way around.

While you're right about the economies of scale, I don't think there are enough ppl in the world that give a crap about a Topre to ramp up production enough to cut cost to DealExtreme levels, so the boutique prices of Topre switch boards will continue

[The Solutor]

Do you have one to flame it like that ?

I don't flaming anything, I'm just saying that its cost its not justified by the production costs. Period.

[ch_123]

Don't mix reliable with durable.

A capacitive switch is certainly durable because the lack of wearing physical contacts, but this doesn't mean that is also reliable, just because the capacitance of the switch can be affected by humidity, temperature, and so on.

And this is not the case of other switching types?

So I SUPPOSE that years ago the electronics needed to get a capacitive switch reliable WAS costly.

And what changed to make the Topre a rip off?

I don't flaming anything, I'm just saying that its cost its not justified by the production costs. Period.

What are your sources for the production costs of Topre keyboards? I'm genuinely fascinated now.

[The Solutor]

And this is not the case of other switching types?

No because a mechanical switch has more than a century of history on its shoulders, is a well known and widespread technology, and most of its initial problems were resolved many years ago.


This not mean that a mechanical switch is problem free, but that the problems are well known, and you can choose a mechanical switch that fit the needs of every application with a predictable durability and behavior, no matter if we are speaking of a nuclear power plant or a 9$ cellphone.

And what changed to make the Topre a rip off?

Likely they improved the electronics, and the dome structure, and they choosed to not sell their patents (or asked to much to sell it).

I'm just guessing, here.

But until some one will give some reason I missed this remain the best approximation of the truth.

What are your sources for the production costs of Topre keyboards? I'm genuinely fascinated now.

I spent 15 of years of my life as electronic technician, most of them in some industrial plants, so I have a very clear vision of the steps needed to build something, and I have also a good vision of what can be built in an automated way and what requires the human workmanship.

BTW, try to completely dismantle a cherry keyboard (i mean completely) and a topre one, and then remount them, then tell me how much time you spent for both the operations.

[ch_123]

What's a mechanical switch?

[panda-R]

Indeed It's a rubber dome keyboard, the different feeling is due mainly to the shape of the dome an the added spring.

Surely not because it has a capacitive switch.

Put a topre dome+spring on top of a membrane and you will get almost the same feeling.

you lost me at "Hey panda you're a hottie."

[suntorytime]

But until some one will give some reason I missed this remain the best approximation of the truth.

No your approximation of the truth is your own subjective viewpoint in saying that the consumer's price should be relative to the production costs.

Different strokes for different folks. Different switches for different riches.

[ch_123]

Likely they improved the electronics, and the dome structure, and they choosed to not sell their patents (or asked to much to sell it).

I'm just guessing, here.

But until some one will give some reason I missed this remain the best approximation of the truth.

So, you acknowledge that capacitive keyboards were expensive to make. Then you claim that Topres are cheaper. You base this claim on the idea that you 'guess' they are cheaper to make. I smell some circular logic here.

BTW, try to completely dismantle a cherry keyboard (i mean completely) and a topre one, and then remount them, then tell me how much time you spent for both the operations.

And this proves what?

[The Solutor]

What's a mechanical switch?

Is something that physically closes opens and closes an electric circuit accordingly to a mechanical force applied on it.

This is the my own definition, but I don't think that an "official" definition will be too far.

[ch_123]

So you claim that a microswitch that uses ohmic switching is not subject to ill effects caused by things such as humidity or temperature?

[The Solutor]

So, you acknowledge that capacitive keyboards were expensive to make.

You was speaking about the oldest IBM one, yes the possible were more expensive AT THE TIME, and IN THE WAY the IBM where built, that is a way completely different than the topre's one

Then you claim that Topres are cheaper.

I claim that in a topre there is nothing of expensive, other than the mechanical tolerances and the plastics quality.

And there's nothing in the assembly process that can justify the higher price.

Thats's all

I'm not criticizing who bought one of them (I'm the first who spend stupid amounts of money when I like something, no matter if that amount is justified), I'm just saying that the quality of a board, is often unrelated with its price, and the topres are just an handy example, you can find zillions of other examples in every market.

[Lanx]

I think it's the simple reason that if you charge a high price for an item, that gives back no measurable value other than you paid more for it, it MAKES the purchaser "feel" better.

This is done in many areas, for instance when Gray Poupon tried to break into the mustard market, French's had a super hold on the market. So they decided, lets put it in a glass jar, jack the price up 10x and say that it's for rich ppl. So Grey Poupon took half the market.

Grey Goose Vodka was not selling well, so some rich guy bought out the brand, now he wanted to try to do something, after years of failed marketing campaign, he decided, i'll just double the price. Sales soured, ppl now believed that since the price was so high, they were paying for a quality product.

Same thing is true for Apple computers.

[The Solutor]

So you claim that a microswitch that uses ohmic switching is not subject to ill effects caused by things such as humidity or temperature?

All on this world is subject to the external conditions, what is different is how predictable the variation is.

A dielectric material can absorb the humidity an change its behavior in a way that is difficult to schematize and to compensate, sometimes that variations can be irreversible.

Every technology faces problems on the early design but the early designs of the mechanical switches comes from the 1800 era

[The Solutor]

I think it's the simple reason that if you charge a high price for an item, that gives back no measurable value other than you paid more for it, it MAKES the purchaser "feel" better.

This is done in many areas, for instance when Gray Poupon tried to break into the mustard market, French's had a super hold on the market. So they decided, lets put it in a glass jar, jack the price up 10x and say that it's for rich ppl. So Grey Poupon took half the market.

Grey Goose Vodka was not selling well, so some rich guy bought out the brand, now he wanted to try to do something, after years of failed marketing campaign, he decided, i'll just double the price. Sales soured, ppl now believed that since the price was so high, they were paying for a quality product.

Same thing is true for Apple computers.

Exactly

[JohnehJH]

When it comes to feeling, different people have different tastes. There's no way to justify buying a mechanical board, especially not $300, except for that you personally like it. So yeah, I guess there is an audiophile effect. Some people may like the feel of rubber domes. I work at Radioshack, and I spend a lot of time in the parts drawer messing with the switches inside of their bags. I like how they feel. I like the bump and click on a Blue MX keyboard.

Some people may like rubbers, I personally don't see the use. ;]

[HaveANiceDay]

I own a Topre board. The materials do not justify the cost, nor does the actual switch which is not much more than a rubber dome with a spring.
Still, I am very happy with the keyboard. I don't see why you guys argue against The Solutor, the Topre boards are overpriced but so is everything else in the world that makes profit. The question is how much overpriced is it, and can I accept that?

Carry on.

[K5Doom]

So you claim that a microswitch that uses ohmic switching is not subject to ill effects caused by things such as humidity or temperature?

He never said that.

What you fail to understand in his arguments is that Mechanical switches have a more predictable behavior than Capacitive switches.

And yeah, humidity and temperature both affects the capacitance of a dielectric material.

I would much rather put a mechanical switch in a safety device rather than a capacitive switch. Important stuff need to have predictable devices.

This is the same reason why FPGAs are preferred over CPUs in important/safety devices.

[ch_123]

He never said that.

Yes he did.

People building mission critical stuff use Hall Effect switches. Switches that involve bits of metal bumping off eachother have far too many problems to be really dependable.

I never claimed that capacitive keyboards are problem-free, merely that the reliability issues that are raised are just as applicable to ohmic contact switching.

You was speaking about the oldest IBM one, yes the possible were more expensive AT THE TIME, and IN THE WAY the IBM where built, that is a way completely different than the topre's one

There were people who built capacitive keyboards other than IBM, Keytronic and BTC are the ones that immediately come to mind.

The reason why the IBM example is noteworthy was because they produced what was effectively the same keyboards with only the contact mechanism differing, and the membrane one was dramatically cheaper to produce.

[The Solutor]

People building mission critical stuff use Hall Effect switches. Switches that involve bits of metal bumping off eachother have far too many problems to be really dependable.

Most of security devices are built around a NC mechanical switch (because you can easily spot a not working one, and a not working one doesn't affect the security).

All switches based on a combination of a sensor + some electronics, like the capacitive or the hall effect ones, are well suited to the operations where the mechanical wearing is a problem.

An hall effect switch can malfunction in any moment as any other electronic component and you are not sure if if the result of the malfunction will be an open or a closed circuit.

[strum4h]

Well you get what you pay for most of the time. I bought a filco with browns and I never want to go back to any rubber dome keyboards ever again.

[woody]

I claim that in a topre there is nothing of expensive, other than the mechanical tolerances and the plastics quality.

And perhaps the believed QA testing of every key. But that's it.

The capacitive sensing doesn't cost that much - just a good enough PCB material and fab, and IC or two that cost peanuts compared to the price the end product is sold at.

I own a Topre board. The materials do not justify the cost, nor does the actual switch which is not much more than a rubber dome with a spring.
Still, I am very happy with the keyboard.

That's a happy end. I really wonder if the Topre based keyboards were priced differently (say, close to the $100 mark) what the following would have been?

My personal biased judging from monitoring this forum is that Topre keyboards are heavily placebo/audiophile-effect ridden. My other even more biased opinion is they still feel like rubber domes, but the activation point (thanks to capacitive sensing) makes them at least tolerable.

[woody]

I think it's the DIP switches that make them so expensive.

Dang, how could I forget this one.

[The Solutor]

i think it's the dip switches that make them so expensive.

rotfl

[HaveANiceDay]

Individually testing every Topre key is PR-BS until proven otherwise.
It makes no sense to test such a simple mechanism where nothing could possibly go wrong.

[HaveANiceDay]

I saw you fail with the IMG tags!

[The Solutor]

That's what Nuclear Reactor designers say.

Meanwhile in Japan.

Look at the positive effects, probably we will have a keyboard with a switch that no other one uses, which is also glowing w/o the need of any kind of lamp behind the keys...

[.XL]

I wanted to buy a BMW 7 series but decided against it because the 5 series uses most of the same materials. Because it uses most of the same materials, it must not be worth it.

Is that statement true? For some people. For some people a small increase in quality reliability and feel is worth the extra $100. For others it's not. Are the Topre's built to a better quality than cherry based bords? Yes. Is the feeling better? Depends on the person. You can't tell RiGS he's wrong to like blacks, and I can't tell anyone blues suck and they're not allowed to like them.

What's the case here is that all of us enjoy quality keyboards and we like trying out new keyboards to see what they're like. We can afford it, so we try. Each and every one of us will be the judge of whether the Realforces and Filcos of the world are worth their price. People who love rubber domes can say you spending so much on a keyboard is silly to them, and the never would. That's fine. To them no mech keyboard is worth it. Are you going to go and argue with them about the building processes and the technical aspects of each switch, and decide which keyboard has a higher true value?

Yes, you probably would. But they won't give a ****. Some people like rubber domes, others like cherries, some like alps, many like BS, and there's a handful that love their Topre's. Honestly I think Filcos are overpriced but I'll still pay the price for them. The only mech keyboards near worth what you pay for them are the direct from manufacturer Noppoo Choc Minis at $75-$80 each...they even have POM keys compared to the crappy Filco keys.

I might order a RF or HHKB or maybe another Filco...will the price be a point of concern for me? Yes. But the feel will be even more important, and if I have to pay an extra $100 to get my ideal typing feel I will.

[.XL]

I like Filco keys better than those crappy AND pooey looking Noppoo keys.

But this part was funny.

If the lettering was a different color and I didn't own a Mac I'd be all over the Noppoos.

[.XL]

So you really didn't like the Noppoo keys better than Filco keys.

Just trying to keep track here.

I didn't buy one for the aforementioned reasons...though one member of the group buy is very graciously allowing me to mess around on his for a little to compare with my Filco.

[Chobopants]

While Filco keys get shiny and slick after a while, right out of the box they look and feel quite nice. Not on a Realforce level but it's definitely something that you can impress people with.

While it's silly, I've given myself a goal of getting the entire engineering, QA, and IT departments in my studio on good boards. Already convinced a handful by just letting them type on mine or hearing me code all day.

[.XL]

While Filco keys get shiny and slick after a while, right out of the box they look and feel quite nice. Not on a Realforce level but it's definitely something that you can impress people with.

True..and the white keyboards have the best caps. They feel much nicer than the black filco's caps. They're the same material so I guess it's just the way the lettering was done.