Author Topic: What is this, a tactile Mitsumi Type 1? Tono Θ-7070 terminal  (Read 7516 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Wingklip

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 154
  • Location: Soviet Republic of Australasia
  • I am the one the one the one the one the one
What is this, a tactile Mitsumi Type 1? Tono Θ-7070 terminal
« on: Sat, 04 February 2017, 09:52:05 »
Odd little thing with double shot abs and insane build quality rivalling the IBM Beam springs. The entire case is powder coat steel and every switch is MX compatible with the white slider thing.

And the usual, is it rare? Any ideas for a project perhaps? It is amazingly 5v and only uses around 4-5 wires


It has yellow capped switches which appear to be half the switch pressure of the standard mitsumi. It is also white casing even though it is linear
« Last Edit: Wed, 15 February 2017, 02:24:29 by Wingklip »
If you 1v1 me in a cage fight I will use an AK-74 for ranged and an IBM model F 122 for melee

Offline Daniel Beardsmore

  • Posts: 1874
  • Location: Hertfordshire, England
  • RIP
    • Boring twaddle
Re: MITSUMI TYPE 1 linear Tono O-7070 terminal
« Reply #1 on: Sun, 05 February 2017, 10:37:22 »
I've never seen a standard size Mitsumi switch that accepts Cherry keycaps. Many of the miniature types (KLT series?) accept Cherry keycaps, but the standard size ones only accept Mitsumi and Alps keycaps.

If yours really does accept Cherry MX keycaps, then you've found something new.

By the way, that says Θ-7070. "Θ" is the Greek letter capital theta.
Bore Awards
Most Boring Person on the Planet – 2011 Winner

Offline Wingklip

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 154
  • Location: Soviet Republic of Australasia
  • I am the one the one the one the one the one
Re: MITSUMI TYPE 1 linear Tono O-7070 terminal
« Reply #2 on: Sun, 05 February 2017, 20:35:33 »
Oh :))! Thought the theta was a stylised O or something lmao

It definitely is mx compatible in the looks of it, the deskthority wiki has a page or two on the mitsumi mechanical type 1's

Edit: it's actually a larger stem mount than cherry so if you had one of the keys the hole would be too large to mount on an MX stem
« Last Edit: Tue, 14 February 2017, 03:09:20 by Wingklip »
If you 1v1 me in a cage fight I will use an AK-74 for ranged and an IBM model F 122 for melee

Offline Daniel Beardsmore

  • Posts: 1874
  • Location: Hertfordshire, England
  • RIP
    • Boring twaddle
Re: MITSUMI TYPE 1 linear Tono O-7070 terminal
« Reply #3 on: Mon, 06 February 2017, 02:46:38 »
We need photos!
Bore Awards
Most Boring Person on the Planet – 2011 Winner

Offline Wingklip

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 154
  • Location: Soviet Republic of Australasia
  • I am the one the one the one the one the one
Re: MITSUMI TYPE 1 linear Tono O-7070 terminal
« Reply #4 on: Tue, 14 February 2017, 03:05:05 »
[ Specified attachment is not available ]
We need photos!

The people speak, so I shall give
Overview
160417-1

PCB
160419-2
160421-3

Keycaps (LED INCLUDED) and double shot 2 tone contrast
160423-4
160425-5
160427-6

Yellow and white Linear Mitsumi assembly and configurations (so smooth it doesn't need a single stabiliser)
160429-7
160431-8

Circuitry, chips by toshiba, also has some block diodes?
160433-9
160439-10

Cable, some sort of DIN
160437-11
« Last Edit: Tue, 14 February 2017, 20:40:35 by Wingklip »
If you 1v1 me in a cage fight I will use an AK-74 for ranged and an IBM model F 122 for melee

Offline Daniel Beardsmore

  • Posts: 1874
  • Location: Hertfordshire, England
  • RIP
    • Boring twaddle
Re: NEW FIND: MITSUMI TYPE 1 linear Tono ©-7070 terminal
« Reply #5 on: Tue, 14 February 2017, 12:07:35 »
Interesting.

Are you sure that Cherry keycaps fit onto the switches?

I don't know if I've seen those yellow ones before. Those will be light weight switches designed to be paired under wider keycaps. This is a fairly well-known technique (SMK and Micro Switch come to mind), but I don't recall seeing it with a Mitsumi keyboard before. The normal switches are all white, which I've seen, but possibly not for a regular momentary switch. (All white was used for the double-action version.)

Where you say "LED INCLUDED" — where are the LEDs? I see two keycaps with LED windows, but the switches below them do not have LEDs inside them. I don't think I've ever seen an illuminated type 1 momentary switch before. Illuminable alternate action, yes, and type 2 illuminated momentary, but not type 1 illuminated. Curious.

These are all the types I currently know about:

https://deskthority.net/wiki/Mitsumi_standard_mechanical
Bore Awards
Most Boring Person on the Planet – 2011 Winner

Offline Wingklip

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 154
  • Location: Soviet Republic of Australasia
  • I am the one the one the one the one the one
Re: NEW FIND: MITSUMI TYPE 1 linear Tono ©-7070 terminal
« Reply #6 on: Tue, 14 February 2017, 17:38:14 »
Interesting.

Are you sure that Cherry keycaps fit onto the switches?

I don't know if I've seen those yellow ones before. Those will be light weight switches designed to be paired under wider keycaps. This is a fairly well-known technique (SMK and Micro Switch come to mind), but I don't recall seeing it with a Mitsumi keyboard before. The normal switches are all white, which I've seen, but possibly not for a regular momentary switch. (All white was used for the double-action version.)

Where you say "LED INCLUDED" — where are the LEDs? I see two keycaps with LED windows, but the switches below them do not have LEDs inside them. I don't think I've ever seen an illuminated type 1 momentary switch before. Illuminable alternate action, yes, and type 2 illuminated momentary, but not type 1 illuminated. Curious.

These are all the types I currently know about:

https://deskthority.net/wiki/Mitsumi_standard_mechanical

I think that the white switch housings might actually be translucent enough for LED lighting to shine through, albeit faintly. Otherwise it could be a design shortcut to minimise cost whilst still using the parts from a previous design.

The 'Linear' switch also feels like it somehow buckles like a rubber dome at the very bottom of force application. It's perhaps the first switch to ever do that that I have felt. It's a light kind of buckle and without sound, but has a noticeable tactile feel to it.

Also cherry keycaps unfortunately do not fit unless you dremel them out a little. It is much more robustly designed as a stem and thus is able to support a 1.75 width key using only one switch on the far left side of it without even anything so much as a stabilizer.
If you 1v1 me in a cage fight I will use an AK-74 for ranged and an IBM model F 122 for melee

Offline Daniel Beardsmore

  • Posts: 1874
  • Location: Hertfordshire, England
  • RIP
    • Boring twaddle
Re: NEW FIND: MITSUMI TYPE 1 linear Tono ©-7070 terminal
« Reply #7 on: Tue, 14 February 2017, 17:42:35 »
There are two different designs of tactile Mitsumi switch. Most of them have a horizontal spring inside the slider (both the large type and small type such as found in Monterey and Chicony keyboards). The type used in the Apple Extended Keyboard II uses a modified actuator leaf to achieve tactility.

The only way to be sure what you've got is to desolder one switch of each type, open it and inspect and photograph it.
Bore Awards
Most Boring Person on the Planet – 2011 Winner

Offline Wingklip

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 154
  • Location: Soviet Republic of Australasia
  • I am the one the one the one the one the one
Re: NEW FIND: MITSUMI TYPE 1 linear Tono ©-7070 terminal
« Reply #8 on: Tue, 14 February 2017, 18:13:03 »
There are two different designs of tactile Mitsumi switch. Most of them have a horizontal spring inside the slider (both the large type and small type such as found in Monterey and Chicony keyboards). The type used in the Apple Extended Keyboard II uses a modified actuator leaf to achieve tactility.

The only way to be sure what you've got is to desolder one switch of each type, open it and inspect and photograph it.

The thing is that it feels tactile only very slighty with the actuation point at 3.5mm down of the 4. An odd feeling. I might be able to disassemble one without desoldering
If you 1v1 me in a cage fight I will use an AK-74 for ranged and an IBM model F 122 for melee

Offline Wingklip

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 154
  • Location: Soviet Republic of Australasia
  • I am the one the one the one the one the one
Holy hell they're actually buckling spring - when you press the switch down for a bit you can hear the spring click against the slider wall then buckle but very faintly

Actuation point is a little past half way down also

I'm heading to the workshop to desolder one right now.
« Last Edit: Tue, 14 February 2017, 20:57:14 by Wingklip »
If you 1v1 me in a cage fight I will use an AK-74 for ranged and an IBM model F 122 for melee

Offline Daniel Beardsmore

  • Posts: 1874
  • Location: Hertfordshire, England
  • RIP
    • Boring twaddle
Re: NEW FIND: MITSUMI YELLOW TYPE 1 Linear/WHITE Tactile Tono Θ-7070 terminal
« Reply #10 on: Wed, 15 February 2017, 12:23:36 »
It won't be buckling spring. Buckling spring is well understood: the spring has a reverse curve, and it's mounted vertically and compressed end-on until it buckles.

There's another design, using a single curve in the spring; when you press the middle of the spring perpendicularly against that curve, it will eventually give way, if I understand it correctly. The only examples I know of are ITT ETL18 and most tactile Mitsumi switches. I'm not sure whether you can test this easily in ETL18, but with a Mitsumi switch it should be possible to take apart a switch and press on the spring to make it flip. That's something I need to try one day, and photograph it.
Bore Awards
Most Boring Person on the Planet – 2011 Winner

Offline Wingklip

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 154
  • Location: Soviet Republic of Australasia
  • I am the one the one the one the one the one
Re: NEW FIND: MITSUMI YELLOW TYPE 1 Linear/WHITE Tactile Tono Θ-7070 terminal
« Reply #11 on: Thu, 16 February 2017, 05:14:23 »
It won't be buckling spring. Buckling spring is well understood: the spring has a reverse curve, and it's mounted vertically and compressed end-on until it buckles.

There's another design, using a single curve in the spring; when you press the middle of the spring perpendicularly against that curve, it will eventually give way, if I understand it correctly. The only examples I know of are ITT ETL18 and most tactile Mitsumi switches. I'm not sure whether you can test this easily in ETL18, but with a Mitsumi switch it should be possible to take apart a switch and press on the spring to make it flip. That's something I need to try one day, and photograph it.

Hehehe, either way it's still a spring that buckles
If you 1v1 me in a cage fight I will use an AK-74 for ranged and an IBM model F 122 for melee

Offline Daniel Beardsmore

  • Posts: 1874
  • Location: Hertfordshire, England
  • RIP
    • Boring twaddle
Re: What is this, a tactile Mitsumi Type 1? Tono Θ-7070 terminal
« Reply #12 on: Thu, 16 February 2017, 16:38:23 »
I'm not sure honestly — I took apart a Mitsumi switch and pressed the spring, and it doesn't "buckle" properly if I just press it inwards. It does need the right shaped item to press the spring down over, it seems. What we need is an x-ray camera switch tester to see the insides of switches as they operate. There are several types I want to see filmed in x-ray vision!
Bore Awards
Most Boring Person on the Planet – 2011 Winner

Offline Wingklip

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 154
  • Location: Soviet Republic of Australasia
  • I am the one the one the one the one the one
Re: What is this, a tactile Mitsumi Type 1? Tono Θ-7070 terminal
« Reply #13 on: Fri, 17 February 2017, 00:45:26 »
That sounds like a sick idea tbh

I got some macro shots of the 'linear' tactile switch

Tactility is from the leaf switch being so thick that it actually resists the slider quite hard. As it reaches the flat portion of it more than halfway down the travel, it seems to become the reason of tactility. Alps style sensing and needlessly complex heehehheehheheehehh

The springs are CASE HARDENED lol, who needs gold plate

The slider is so smooth it's able to reflect a good deal of light

Actually the spring doesn't buckle, I think this was just a defect on one of the switches  :(

So I think I found a tactile 'linear' which doesn't seem to be so far documented in the deskthority wiki
If you 1v1 me in a cage fight I will use an AK-74 for ranged and an IBM model F 122 for melee

Offline Wingklip

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 154
  • Location: Soviet Republic of Australasia
  • I am the one the one the one the one the one
Re: What is this, a tactile Mitsumi Type 1? Tono Θ-7070 terminal
« Reply #14 on: Fri, 17 February 2017, 00:53:37 »
Semi assembled:
160720-0

160722-1

160724-2
Group shot:
160726-3
Leaf sprung contact:
160728-4
Note the shape of the spring
160730-5
If you 1v1 me in a cage fight I will use an AK-74 for ranged and an IBM model F 122 for melee

Offline Daniel Beardsmore

  • Posts: 1874
  • Location: Hertfordshire, England
  • RIP
    • Boring twaddle
Re: What is this, a tactile Mitsumi Type 1? Tono Θ-7070 terminal
« Reply #15 on: Fri, 17 February 2017, 16:41:01 »
That small amount of tactility caused by the actuation leaf is present in Alps switches too:

https://plot.ly/~haata/291/alps-skcl-yellow/

Normally it's not noticeable, but I do have a bag of some switches (yellow (SKCLAR) or yellow with red LED (SKCLFQ)) where the tactility is really noticeable.

What's the difference between the white switches and the yellow switches?

I notice that the keystem is not symmetrical in both axes; of the "+", there are two long sides, one short side, and one really short side, and that's not normal either!
Bore Awards
Most Boring Person on the Planet – 2011 Winner

Offline Wingklip

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 154
  • Location: Soviet Republic of Australasia
  • I am the one the one the one the one the one
Re: What is this, a tactile Mitsumi Type 1? Tono Θ-7070 terminal
« Reply #16 on: Wed, 22 February 2017, 04:28:57 »
The only thing that I assume it's for is directional orientation, but could it be for some special placement of keycaps? I mean quite sure that all Mitsumi type 1 Mecha have them

The keycaps fit any orientation btw, so idk if it's a design so that the stem is harder to break, to save material, or for something special, perhaps tooling

The difference between the linear yellow I'm assuming, and the tactile white, is that the actuation points are different. White is pretty much on the press and yellow is near bottoming, like this Mitsumi. Nice data  :thumb:
« Last Edit: Wed, 22 February 2017, 04:34:55 by Wingklip »
If you 1v1 me in a cage fight I will use an AK-74 for ranged and an IBM model F 122 for melee

Offline Daniel Beardsmore

  • Posts: 1874
  • Location: Hertfordshire, England
  • RIP
    • Boring twaddle
Re: What is this, a tactile Mitsumi Type 1? Tono Θ-7070 terminal
« Reply #17 on: Wed, 22 February 2017, 17:06:39 »
The yellow ones should simply be lighter. Wider keycaps will tip over or cause the switch to jam if you don't press them centrally; normally this is prevented by a wire that holds both sides of the keycap at the same height, but in a rare few keyboards two light weight switches are placed side by side. The actuation point should be the same — if you can demonstrate that it is consistently lower on every yellow switch, then we need to see what's inside one of them.

I find that some switch types don't switch between open and closed instantaneously: if you press them slowly, the resistance falls off gradually. That's likely why some switches have a switching region: the total travel is divided into the off, switching and on regions. In the off region, it's guaranteed to be off (zero current), and in the on region it's guaranteed to be on (near-zero resistance) and in the switching region it's in-between. Mitsumi switches should behave this way too. Generally this switching region is fairly short in practice, but if your switches aren't in ideal condition they may not behave the same. The only way to be sure is to inspect the parts and see if they're the same design.

The white ones are definitely not deliberately tactile — the internal parts are exactly the same as the other linear switches.
Bore Awards
Most Boring Person on the Planet – 2011 Winner

Offline Wingklip

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 154
  • Location: Soviet Republic of Australasia
  • I am the one the one the one the one the one
Re: What is this, a tactile Mitsumi Type 1? Tono Θ-7070 terminal
« Reply #18 on: Sun, 26 February 2017, 23:35:46 »
Oh, my bad lol. I thought you were talking about white alps. Got kinda lost in thought.

The yellow mitsumis feel completely linear, I'd be assuming that the actuation point is the same although the leaves appear to be non tactility inducing, as the springs seem lighter but there is pretty much no feel of the tactility whatsoever. What's odd about it is that I'd assume that the sense leaf would be independent, but it does seem to have a small component force when you press down on it - it's at a slight angle out
If you 1v1 me in a cage fight I will use an AK-74 for ranged and an IBM model F 122 for melee

Offline Daniel Beardsmore

  • Posts: 1874
  • Location: Hertfordshire, England
  • RIP
    • Boring twaddle
Re: What is this, a tactile Mitsumi Type 1? Tono Θ-7070 terminal
« Reply #19 on: Tue, 28 February 2017, 02:44:23 »
OK, I've referenced it on the wiki: https://deskthority.net/wiki/Mitsumi_standard_mechanical — it does need properly documenting though, especially given its current uniqueness.

I notice that the return spring in your colourless switch has more turns than the spring in my black/colourless switches, which should make it a lighter weight. Maybe mine is 70 cN and yours is 60 cN. It's not that easy to determine, as of course there's also the spring material and wire gauge as well as the length of the spring to factor in. For example, here, the spring from the lighter switch (on the right) has fewer turns (heavier), but of thinner gauge wire (lighter):

https://deskthority.net/wiki/File:SMK_vintage_linear,_low_friction_variants.jpg

However, considering the difference in colour, it would make sense for yours to be a different specification, and weight is the most likely explanation.
Bore Awards
Most Boring Person on the Planet – 2011 Winner

Offline Wingklip

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 154
  • Location: Soviet Republic of Australasia
  • I am the one the one the one the one the one
Re: What is this, a tactile Mitsumi Type 1? Tono Θ-7070 terminal
« Reply #20 on: Wed, 01 March 2017, 01:55:43 »
Nice dude :thumb: ! Could you also add my images and maybe a paragraph to the wiki there? Would be great because I don't think I can without a wiki account or something.

Also I have the terminal, I think it was in the early eighties. Might give it a spin and see :)
If you 1v1 me in a cage fight I will use an AK-74 for ranged and an IBM model F 122 for melee

Offline Daniel Beardsmore

  • Posts: 1874
  • Location: Hertfordshire, England
  • RIP
    • Boring twaddle
Re: What is this, a tactile Mitsumi Type 1? Tono Θ-7070 terminal
« Reply #21 on: Wed, 01 March 2017, 02:34:42 »
I don't add images to the wiki from anyone else in the community.
Bore Awards
Most Boring Person on the Planet – 2011 Winner

Offline Wingklip

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 154
  • Location: Soviet Republic of Australasia
  • I am the one the one the one the one the one
Re: What is this, a tactile Mitsumi Type 1? Tono Θ-7070 terminal
« Reply #22 on: Wed, 01 March 2017, 03:03:32 »
Nani???1?1?11??1?11!!!!

Lol, why but?
If you 1v1 me in a cage fight I will use an AK-74 for ranged and an IBM model F 122 for melee

Offline Daniel Beardsmore

  • Posts: 1874
  • Location: Hertfordshire, England
  • RIP
    • Boring twaddle
Re: What is this, a tactile Mitsumi Type 1? Tono Θ-7070 terminal
« Reply #23 on: Wed, 01 March 2017, 12:00:36 »
Was ist "Nani"?

If I agree to add a person's photos to the wiki for them (the lazy gits) then everyone else will want me to add theirs too, and that will take far too much time. I have to draw the line somewhere, which is: No. (A few years back I spent all my spare time on the wiki, and on top of that everyone still expected me to add all their photos, and I was already drowning in wiki work as it was. I desperately needed other people to join in and get involved, not to dump more work on me.)

So no. The community must take responsibility too.

I also have my keyboard community One China Policy. That is, it's ridiculous that the community has split and split again, so I hold everyone responsible for the wiki no matter which splinter group you've joined.
Bore Awards
Most Boring Person on the Planet – 2011 Winner

Offline Wingklip

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 154
  • Location: Soviet Republic of Australasia
  • I am the one the one the one the one the one
Re: What is this, a tactile Mitsumi Type 1? Tono Θ-7070 terminal
« Reply #24 on: Wed, 01 March 2017, 18:01:17 »
How do I edit the wiki? I don't really recall seeing a sign up or edit button anywhere
If you 1v1 me in a cage fight I will use an AK-74 for ranged and an IBM model F 122 for melee

Offline Daniel Beardsmore

  • Posts: 1874
  • Location: Hertfordshire, England
  • RIP
    • Boring twaddle
Re: What is this, a tactile Mitsumi Type 1? Tono Θ-7070 terminal
« Reply #25 on: Wed, 01 March 2017, 18:08:54 »
The bad news: you have to register with Deskthority to be able to log into the wiki (the accounts are linked).

The good news: it's just plain old MediaWiki with a few tweaks (the Preview tab makes testing changes so much easier than on Wikipedia). The primary syntax is trivial, and the rest you can copy/paste/adapt from other pages. For some reason, even the most technical people in the community find this unbearably hard (most won't even go near it), and I have no idea why. Wikipedia and Wikia wouldn't be where they are today if MediaWiki was that tortuous.
Bore Awards
Most Boring Person on the Planet – 2011 Winner

Offline Wingklip

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 154
  • Location: Soviet Republic of Australasia
  • I am the one the one the one the one the one
Re: What is this, a tactile Mitsumi Type 1? Tono Θ-7070 terminal
« Reply #26 on: Wed, 01 March 2017, 22:51:06 »
Aye nice just set one up  ;D
If you 1v1 me in a cage fight I will use an AK-74 for ranged and an IBM model F 122 for melee

Offline Daniel Beardsmore

  • Posts: 1874
  • Location: Hertfordshire, England
  • RIP
    • Boring twaddle
Re: What is this, a tactile Mitsumi Type 1? Tono Θ-7070 terminal
« Reply #27 on: Thu, 02 March 2017, 18:52:51 »
Getting there. The image you added to the variants table goes in the Gallery section — the variants table image should be an assembled switch. (If in doubt, be consistent with what's already there.)
Bore Awards
Most Boring Person on the Planet – 2011 Winner

Offline Wingklip

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 154
  • Location: Soviet Republic of Australasia
  • I am the one the one the one the one the one
Re: What is this, a tactile Mitsumi Type 1? Tono Θ-7070 terminal
« Reply #28 on: Thu, 02 March 2017, 19:31:23 »
Never remember seeing a galley section lol, been trying to see the insides of all the switches.

Perhaps even the alps plate spring is in there, naked and supple?
If you 1v1 me in a cage fight I will use an AK-74 for ranged and an IBM model F 122 for melee

Offline Daniel Beardsmore

  • Posts: 1874
  • Location: Hertfordshire, England
  • RIP
    • Boring twaddle
Re: What is this, a tactile Mitsumi Type 1? Tono Θ-7070 terminal
« Reply #29 on: Fri, 03 March 2017, 02:38:29 »
Uh … it's here:

https://deskthority.net/wiki/Mitsumi_standard_mechanical#Gallery

The disassembly image should be here, not under Variants.

I've taken Alps plate spring apart, but I've not yet photographed it. Maybe one day. Chyros shows the insides of it in a video somewhere.
Bore Awards
Most Boring Person on the Planet – 2011 Winner

Offline Daniel Beardsmore

  • Posts: 1874
  • Location: Hertfordshire, England
  • RIP
    • Boring twaddle
Re: What is this, a tactile Mitsumi Type 1? Tono Θ-7070 terminal
« Reply #30 on: Wed, 21 March 2018, 18:00:09 »
It's funny the things you miss.

I was considering that these should be "KAM Type" (keyboard, original, momentary I guess) and there you go, KAM Type!

(At a guess, alternate action is KAA Type, and double action, maybe KAD … Type 2 is KCT for tactile and likely KCM for linear, just as we also have KDM and KLM linear types.)
Bore Awards
Most Boring Person on the Planet – 2011 Winner