Rit dye and keys

[bigpook]

Would someone mind ordering me one from here (or 2 even)
http://itwinkle.stores.yahoo.net/golerkeyspan1.html
I will send money for the boards via paypal and then some more for shipping when I get paid.
Just want to know I have one secured if you know what Im saying.

Although they do have 75 available lol.
Still the shipping is high.
If anyone can help me out here I would appreciate it.

I just PM'd you.

[wellington1869]

hey, i just saw this -- pm'ed you lam.

[Therac-25]

Going to attempt this on my remaining Unicomp Model M on the weekend (42H1292U February 28 2001, for those keeping track).  Going for solid black.

Any pointers?  I have a bag of old Model M keys from one that died (not a Unicomp, however), so I'll test on a few of those to get an idea of how to not melt them.

I'm not overly attached to this keyboard, and I have three real IBM Model Ms anyway, so if I manage to turn it into a pile of molten goop, I'm not going to cry.

[D-EJ915]

somebody mentioned skateboarding earlier in this thread, inline skaters have been doing it for quite a while now, those "wood pushers" are always behind the times lol

dyed skate parts video how-to

[Therac-25]

somebody mentioned skateboarding earlier in this thread, inline skaters have been doing it for quite a while now, those wood pushers are always behind the times lol

dyed skate parts

What kind of dye do they use?

[D-EJ915]

What kind of dye do they use?

probably the same, not exactly sure.  They sell the stuff they use under their own brand here

[Therac-25]

Didn't get a chance to go through with this on the weekend, sadly.  Got the keyboard apart, had everything cleaned and ready, just couldn't get the kids safely away from the kitchen...

Well, hopefully I can get it done this week.  UPS seems to not have budged, so I doubt the M10 is going to appear tommorow.

[andb]

How much dye is needed? I'm going to have to order from the UK and have shipped since I cant find any closer. So if I want to do 5 boards, can I just reuse the same dyed water or will I need multiple packets? Im also trying to figure out what to do this in, boards are pretty big and I definitely don't have a pan big enough to fit a fullsize board into... I think I wont risk the bathtub, I'd hate to have that turn black!

[iMav]

How much dye is needed? I'm going to have to order from the UK and have shipped since I cant find any closer. So if I want to do 5 boards, can I just reuse the same dyed water or will I need multiple packets? Im also trying to figure out what to do this in, boards are pretty big and I definitely don't have a pan big enough to fit a fullsize board into... I think I wont risk the bathtub, I'd hate to have that turn black!

I used a full pack every time...but didn't reuse it.  I'm guessing you could do a lot of plastic with the same batch of dye.

[zwmalone]

I'm thinking about trying this... Would it work on double injection molded keycaps?  Also, if I screw up does anyone know where to get ALPS keycaps?

[sandy55]

if I screw up does anyone know where to get ALPS keycaps?

This note for you, zwmalone, a Harvester of Keycaps.

Get AEK/AEKII, Focus 'boards. you can use alpha-numeric caps of those 'boards.  you'd better try dyeing with them at first.

[zwmalone]

Thanks for the info sandy.  I like the title, a harvester of keycaps
So this has compatible keycaps?  Supposedly there are 2 versions of the AEKII, one with ALPS Whites (with dampers) and one with Mitsumi switches.  Do both take the same keycaps?

[sandy55]

Thanks for the info sandy.  I like the title, a harvester of keycaps

Glad to know that.  I myself like the former.

So this has compatible keycaps?  Supposedly there are 2 versions of the AEKII, one with ALPS Whites (with dampers) and one with Mitsumi switches.  Do both take the same keycaps?

Strictly speaking they are different with each other. But I may say they are interchangable.
My vernier micrometer shows their hight ( shorter side of a projection within a key cap. dunno how do you call it ) as
mitsumi/2.25mm and Appl( and other alps caps)/2.30mm.
I've confirmed that each switch can accept both caps,

In most case, Mitsumi version is marked as "Made in Japan" just beneath FCCID number while ALPS version is as "Made in USA". ( off course there may be exceptions )
If you see a small  lettering "s" at the lower right of FCC label, it's a sign of ALPS with Dampers.  I don't know what does *s* stand for.  Silenced...or.... Soften?   If an AEKII board is without s, it has either Oranges or Pinks( a rarity ).

[itlnstln]

I would imagine that if you have 2-color molded keycaps that you would not have any problems as long as the lettering was black (earlier in the thread, it was noted that black keys, and, therefore, plastic would not take color).  You could also get a Dell AT101 for keycaps as the are laser etched.

[sool9175]

eBay has some reasonably priced pans for anyone who is interested in dying keyboard cases.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=300272299472&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=020

To date I have RIT dyed a couple of batches of Model M keycaps with no problems. In fact, the results have been outstanding if the dye is keep just below simmer for an hour. After dying, rinse multiple times in cold water.

[andb]

To date I have RIT dyed a couple of batches of Model M keycaps with no problems. In fact, the results have been outstanding if the dye is keep just below simmer for an hour. After dying, rinse multiple times in cold water.

An hour? Really that long? I was thinking it would be just a matter of 15 minutes.

Pics?

[wellington1869]

I think 10 mins does it actually. and water need not be at simmer either IIRC. I've dyed t-shirts with hot tap water from faucet with this stuff. It might not penetrate as deeply but it was good enough in most cases.

[lam47]

on plastics it does need to be quite a long time if you want and even colour.
Also the hotter the water the better the colour. However too hot and too long can warp the keys. Its very hit and miss.

[megarat]

I started my first long-awaited Rit project last night (with my HHKBP2), and so far it's been terrific.  There's more to come, and I'll provide pix when I'm finished.

Some notes, if it helps:

You do not need to use the whole pack of dye powder.  Certainly, the more you use, the faster it will take, and there appears to be a linear (or at least linear-ish -- I didn't collect data) relationship between the amount of die you have in the pan vs. the amount of time required to achieve the deepness of color that you desire.  There also might be an issue re: "depth of dye penetration", which seems proportional to the amount of time that the keys are in the dyebath, but that's speculative.

I don't believe that temperature is too much a factor in this equation.  It helps to get it warm/hot, but other than that, just be cautious and keep it from boiling.  However, another variable is likely "how much plastic are you dying in a given run", but I was only doing two keys each time, so I don't have any data for that.  I'll be doing some in bulk later, hopefully tonight.

The instructions state that one pack is suitable for three gallons of water (which is suitable for a large volume of fabric, I forget the actual amount; I do believe that fabric takes dye better than plastic, however).  I used just under a quart of water, and while that would imply that I should use about 1/12th of the packet, I actually used about a third.  To help fix the colors, I also added appx 1-2 tablespoons of salt, as per the instructions.

I kept the water just under boiling (with the burner set at about medium; YMMV), and it took 20-30 minutes to get my preferred deepness of color.  So far, I turned my function key "Golden Yellow", and my escape key "Scarlet".  The yellow tends toward rusty red if it goes too long, while scarlet tends toward a maroonish black.

My wife (a chemist-turned-biostatistician, and a Rit tie-dyer in her undergrad days) advised that Rit dyebaths shouldn't be done in cookware that you intend to eat out of again.  (The Rit instructions, however, merely state that everything should be washed very throughly afterwards with lots of bleach, so take your pick.)  Personally -- because we share the same cookware -- I used a pan that I picked up specifically at a thrift store for US$3, and for agitating the water, I used a pair of disposable chopsticks.  

How did I know when to stop?:  I used the chopsticks to frequently dig out a key to appraise its color, and stopped when it seemed right.

Many thanks to iMav for starting this fun trend.  So far I've been having a ball.

[wellington1869]

thanks for the deets and recipe megarat!  looking forward the pics. golden yellow and scarlet sound awesome.

[xsphat]

I'm excited about seeing pics as well.

[megarat]

Rit Party:  Night 2

After some experimentation with more colors, last night -- it must be said -- was much less excellent than the night before.  Alas.

The overall message is that I concur with iMav that light colors are best.  All dark or even dark-ish colors tend to black over time, and they go dark really fast.  Light colors can sit in the pot for a long time and get really rich; working with dark colors is a race against time that requires constant vigilance.  Any lack of attention and tears will be shed.

Some more notes:

-- The color "Navy Blue" turned out anomalously weird.  It didn't turn out blue at all, in fact, but a strange mottled grey.  (This is on a white HHKB key.)  My wife and I are speculating about whether there is something chemically weird about this one.  We pulled off a lucky save, however, by combining these grey keys with "Purple" and got a deep royal purple.  Result:  I only recommend Navy Blue for mixing with other colors, to darken them up a bit.

-- Some keys turn out with coloring inconsistencies, specifically with a white streak or two.  So far, these have only shown up on keys with darker colors.  While this may be a sampling artifact (I have only made four keys of light colors, and many, many more of dark colors), it does lead to speculation about whether they were in the dyebath long enough.  The light dyes, you can soak them in there for a long time and get the key nice and uniform.  The dark colors, unless you under-dilute, they go dark fast, so some of the resistant spots stay white.  That's the theory at least.

Of the two HHKBs that I am dyeing up, only one of them will have a complete dye-job.  Partly because I changed my mind about the layout for one of them, but also I made enough unpleasant discoveries (and mistakes) that I'm running out of white/grey keys.  Worst-case scenario:  I might need to throw some more money at this project and get another set of keys.  We'll see how it goes.  At least I have more than enough black keys, so I can get it back to stock.

In spite of these setbacks, I'm still having fun.  Surprisingly, of the two of us, it seems that my wife is having the most fun of all.  I thought she would regard this as hopelessly geeky, but she's having a blast and is completely getting into it.  She's even happily picking up some dye for me today so I (we?) can experiment with new colors.

There is one more planned step in this process, which will hopefully be tonight.  My main computer at home is currently down, pending a carpet installation, but I'll ideally get photos up by the end of the week.

[itlnstln]

Wow, I wouldn't have the heart to dye (thus, making permanent changes to) such an expensive piece of equipment.

[megarat]

Wow, I wouldn't have the heart to dye (thus, making permanent changes to) such an expensive piece of equipment.

Note that I am only dyeing a replacement set of keys, so there's nothing permanent about it.  If it doesn't work out, I just swap back the original keys.

Unless you are referring to the keys themselves as expensive equipment, which would still be a fair appraisal.  That said, US$60 for the keys alone pales in comparison to US$250 for the board itself, and for me, worth the risk as a mod project/experiment.

[sool9175]

*** Model M and RIT Black RIT Dye ***

Using RIT dye and relatively large, heated dying vat, the Model M keys dye to jet black in about 20 minutes with very hot water (just below boiling).

In contrast, the Model M case does takes dye poorly in the same temperature water, and in fact the Model M case warps and becomes unusable.

Time to head over to Marketplace forum and place a WTB for a Unicomp...

[lam47]

Cant wait to see your pictures!

[kliclak]

On the off chance that blank black keys are no longer available from Unicomp I may wind up trying this with my black Customizer.

Even if the keys don't go fully black, a darker grey would still be an improvement over the light grey metallic keys it came with.

[lam47]

I tried a brown dye on some seimitsu arcade buttons and it looks OK.
Sorry the picture is not very good.
The colour is not totally uniform but its not bad.
The kind of plastic makes a huge difference when doing this.

[wellington1869]

i like it.

[bigpook]

That brown dye turned out pretty good.

[ashort]

What do you do with the dye-soup when you are done?  Down the drain?

[megarat]

What do you do with the dye-soup when you are done?  Down the drain?

Speaking for myself, yep.  There aren't any specific disposal instructions, so if anyone knows if I should be doing something different, let me know.

Considering that the dye was made to be used in washing machines (and drained thusly), I'm guessing that this is okay, or at least not catastrophic.

[ashort]

I'm no environmentalist...I was more worried about staining my ceramic white sink.  :-D

[wellington1869]

I'm no environmentalist...I was more worried about staining my ceramic white sink.  :-D

i remember once black RIT dye messed up my mom's tub (after I had dyed some t-shirts, heh). It took a lot of scrubbing to get rid of it. But if I recall it may not have been a ceramic tub (Might have been some kind of plastic, in which case it makes sense that it took the dye, I guess

[lam47]

Well I have another key cap to add to the 'just wont bloody dye' list.
The macally MK96.
Key was in the pan for 45min.
I heated it on the stove until just before boiling then removed it to let it cool abit.
I repeated this about 20 times.

Perhaps Im not using enough dye or salt but I am following the instructions in the box.

Balls.

[wellington1869]

thats a pretty funny lookin' "salmon" key
Its great that we can all learn from your adventures  

In this case it must be the type of plastic thats causing the issue. Odd.

[megarat]

I'm no environmentalist...I was more worried about staining my ceramic white sink.  :-D

A ceramic sink will bleach right up with very little effort.  A formica countertop will also clean right up, although with slightly more effort.  My plastic utility sink, I'm not so sure yet, as I haven't really started the cleaning effort yet.  It sure is interesting looking, however.

[lam47]

Sigh, I will have to spray it or something so it does not look so stupid.
I will collate the info I have on boards and how they dye at some point.

[lam47]

some sucssess at last.
The MX cap from the Compaq took the colour well in hot water after about 20 minuets.
The Alps macally key above was also in the dye at the same time but only took a little dye.
I though what the testical and just let the water get to boiling for a second.
This seemed to change the plastic slightly and it started to take the colour quickly.
It has melted a little as you can see in the picture here.
However I feel it might work if the key was dunked in boiling briefly.
Its like the boiling water broke a skin allowing the dye to soak in.

I dont know anything about plastics so cant say if this is indeed the case.
Im sure someone will know.

[lal]

Looks cool. I'd like to see a panorama view of the complete keyboard with the red Escape key, please. And I'm very glad you've salvaged the MacAlly key at least! Very interesting stuff.

[bhtooefr]

It could very well have been a coating on the keys that got boiled off. Note all those keyboards that only yellow on the spacebar, that's because they're coated keys.

[Chloe]

Compaq MX 11800 have PBT keycaps. They are not UV coated ABS.

I did some of my own tests:

PBT keycaps on Apple Extended II and Compaq MX 11800 - no melting after twenty minutes on simmer.

Various ABS keycaps (including Apple Extended II space bar) melted after only 10 minutes on simmer.

[xsphat]

Chloe, how can you tell them apart? What kind of keys do Topre / HHKB Pro use?

[Chloe]

I will try to explain how I can tell. It is not the texture of the plastic but the hardness. Even thick ABS casing has a softness compared to thin PBT. The Compaq are easy to tell because they are labelled PBT but once you have typed on both it is easy to tell them apart. Also two more clues, ABS is more prone to yellowing and shine spots from wear. I have seen old Cherry keyboards with yellowed cases (ABS) and their keycaps have no yellowing at all.

The space bar on my Apple Extended II is very shiny but the keycaps are only mildly so. This keyboard is nearly twenty years old. If they had UV coating this would have long worn off (see Filco Majestouch) and keycaps if not PBT would have started to yellow.

Most keycaps are made of ABS because it is a cheaper plastic. My boiling tests have confirmed what I already suspected. ABS is too soft and has a lower melting point, and possibly won't take dye as well as PBT judging by Laurie's tests. After ten minutes the colour of ABS keycaps also becomes blotchy and inconsistent, but PBT is unaffected even after twenty minutes. Based on this I suspect IBM Model M and Topre do not have ABS keycaps.

From what I understand, yellowing is a sign of degradation of plastic caused by a combination of UV, heat and flame-retardant added to the plastic during manufacture.

[bhtooefr]

FWIW, it is possible to undo yellowing... it involves salon or lab-grade hydrogen peroxide (NASTY stuff,) some other chemicals, and a source of UV light.

[xsphat]

I will try to explain how I can tell. It is not the texture of the plastic but the hardness. Even thick ABS casing has a softness compared to thin PBT. The Compaq are easy to tell because they are labelled PBT but once you have typed on both it is easy to tell them apart. Also two more clues, ABS is more prone to yellowing and shine spots from wear. I have seen old Cherry keyboards with yellowed cases (ABS) and their keycaps have no yellowing at all.

The space bar on my Apple Extended II is very shiny but the keycaps are only mildly so. This keyboard is nearly twenty years old. If they had UV coating this would have long worn off (see Filco Majestouch) and keycaps if not PBT would have started to yellow.

Most keycaps are made of ABS because it is a cheaper plastic. My boiling tests have confirmed what I already suspected. ABS is too soft and has a lower melting point, and possibly won't take dye as well as PBT judging by Laurie's tests. After ten minutes the colour of ABS keycaps also becomes blotchy and inconsistent, but PBT is unaffected even after twenty minutes. Based on this I suspect IBM Model M and Topre do not have ABS keycaps.

From what I understand, yellowing is a sign of degradation of plastic caused by a combination of UV, heat and flame-retardant added to the plastic during manufacture.

Thank you. I think I know what you are talking about. I am so hessetnet to try this on my Topre because a new set of keys is like $70 and generally suck at doing this sort of thing.

[lam47]

Would make sense bhtooefr.
I might have a try at rubbing one with a bit of tcut first to see what happens.

[lam47]

Compaq MX 11800 have PBT keycaps. They are not UV coated ABS.

These ones took the dye fine.

[Chloe]

Thank you. I think I know what you are talking about. I am so hessetnet to try this on my Topre because a new set of keys is like $70 and generally suck at doing this sort of thing.

I would be too. Is there any writing on the inside of the keycap? If not, I would first see how one key responds to hot water, no dye. I used boiling water from the kettle and kept it on the lowest heat, smallest hob. If it doesn't begin to warp or melt by ten minutes then it is probably not ABS.

I just did another test with Apple and Compaq keycaps, this time keeping the water near to boiling (small bubbles) for twenty minutes. The lasered ink in the Apple is a little lighter but the keycaps are fine otherwise.

For reference, melting point of ABS is 105°C, PBT is 221°C.
http://www.polymerweb.com/_datash/polylist.html

[Chloe]

According to this article HIPS (high-impact polystyrene) is also commonly used for keyboard cases. Like ABS, it also has a really low melting point (85°C) and poor UV resistance.