Author Topic: [IC] GMK Kantharos  (Read 24757 times)

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Offline konstantin

  • Formerly constexpr
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Re: [IC] GMK Kantharos
« Reply #50 on: Mon, 10 January 2022, 13:20:55 »
-Among layouts that DO have full sublegend support, there is no clear consensus regarding what type of dialytika should be used on specific labels. When speaking to multiple greek speakers and layout users the consensus was "just showing that there is a dialytika option is more than enough." Even in the layout you linked in this response they use ALL THREE dialytika on one key rather than keeping the original :; legend. Compromises need to be made here imo. I  also received absolutely no complaints about the dialytika-tonos on ePBT Kavala's kit, nor any complaints from the greek speakers I asked for feedback from.

A few points:
  • As far as I'm aware, no standard Greek layout used on modern systems has the particular tonos + dialytika-tonos (΄΅) combination that's being used here, in that particular position (on the ;: key). Here are some screenshots I took of the standard implementations on Windows and Ubuntu (I don't have a Mac to check, but it should be the same as far as that key goes).

  • Dialytika, while itself being somewhat uncommon, is still a more commonly used diacritic in Greek than dialytika-tonos. The latter is quite rare, occurring only on vowels ι, υ that are both stressed and pronounced separately from surrounding vowels (similar to how ¨ is used in French). As you yourself have said, Greek users don't consider it to be essential. Therefore, the regular dialytika symbol should take priority over dialytika-tonos.

  • You'll notice that in the layout I linked in my previous post (which fully matches the standard Greek layout on Windows), the dialytika-tonos is located in the tertiary (AltGr) position on the ;: key. Since this set mixes US primary legends with GR sublegends, only the primary (base) and secondary (shifted) layers of the GR layout are represented — the tertiary layer is not. Therefore, the dialytika-tonos should not be shown on the ;: key, similar to how ², ³, £ etc. are not present in the numrow subs.
    (Side note: This is the same reason why we don't include the ruble symbol as a sublegend on the 8* key in US/RU keysets, or the shekel , euro and double vowel symbols on keys in US/HE keysets.)
It's for these reasons that I think that using ΄΅ instead of ΄¨ is very unfounded. If indeed the feedback you've gotten from Greek users is that “just showing that there is a dialytika option is more than enough”, then obviously the right choice is to use the actual dialytika/diaeresis symbol instead of ΅, as that also matches the actual character mapping in most common implementations.


-The Q key is missing the tertiary legend for aesthetics, as none of the greek speakers I reached out to considered it to be essential.
-The W key is missing the tertiary legend for the exact same reason.

Your last two points are understandable. If it's for aesthetics' sake, I'm not going to try and argue with that because it's very subjective. While the visual inconsistency of one key having a quaternary sublegend while the other two don't is a bit disconcerting, I also understand that it results in a cleaner look, which some may prefer. It's up to the set's designer to decide what to do with those two keys, I'd say. :)
« Last Edit: Mon, 10 January 2022, 13:35:29 by konstantin »

Offline depressedkeebs

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Re: [IC] GMK Kantharos
« Reply #51 on: Mon, 10 January 2022, 13:25:20 »
Would love to see renders in other case colors, it looks really nice bud, gl

Offline zea

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Re: [IC] GMK Kantharos
« Reply #52 on: Mon, 10 January 2022, 17:15:54 »
this is ****ing hilarious

Offline solarce

  • Posts: 9
  • Location: Chile
Re: [IC] GMK Kantharos
« Reply #53 on: Mon, 10 January 2022, 17:55:56 »
Set itself looks pretty nice! and the renders show off the idea in a very nice way.

In terms of the drama, we just need some clarification, since the screenshots date 8 moths back from now there must have been a lot that happened and a lot of effort put into it too.

Yes some clarification would be helpful, but this looks NOTHING like the early concepts. I'm pretty sure the set would be completely different with the direction Arq was taking (not that that is a bad thing).
Quote
From the looks of it, OP just wanted help from someone actively working on a set, someone with experience in design (probably not the best designer since Dream Bird didn't even reach MOQ, which wasn't a bad set, seemed more like poor management).
Dude and that that make it ethical? I literally ask him in the screenshots if he only wanted help or if it was some thing we were going to be doing together. Does that make it ok?

Quote
Looks like a lot of effort was put into this and I can't see where Arq had an influence on this final iteration. I might be biased because it looks good on my keyboard... But I wanna know what exactly happened in those 8 months.


You not been biased just "because it looks good on my keyboard" but because he is your friend. The same thing for Puncus, sax, fer, and others that I guess will be coming here.

I didn't think we were going to get to this but here we go ...

1. "This set was started by him and me" Yeah ... but not really: Context: Arq and I were friends a long time ago, yes, we started the set together but the direction of the set and above all, attitudes of him not only with me but with several members of the Latin American community (most of them Mexican), caused me to cut the relationship with him.

Arq tends to "take possession" of ideas when he sees that he can take advantage of them, mainly monetary. I'm not making empty accusations most of the Mexican / Latam members can vouch for this.
Dude literally that whole server is toxic. You guys just pretend everything is fine. if anyone gives their opinions or tries to have serious discussions they just put emotes and start making fun of each other.
Example:
Show Image


Oh man I would love to see the money transactions cause so far I have made $0. Im in very negative numbers. 

Quote
2. As you can see the conversations are months old and since we stopped talking he showed no interest in continuing with the set, why wait until I took out the IC when he had enough time to do his iteration of it?
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I didnt continuing simple because I didnt find it ethical. How can I do it if at the end of our conversation you never answer me? Did you wanted me to go behind your back and do a surprise IC? just like you did?

Show Image


One render BTW: *also they are were just to conceptualize the colors, because were going to pay for them. I always pay my renders cause I dont know how to do them properly.

Show Image


Quote
4. I was the one who organized the project, I was the one who paid for the novelties, renders, Pantone books, ABS plastic chips, make multiple iterations of the kitting, well, pretty much everything

Do you want a cookie for doing what a designer should be doing? I would have done the same and we even talked about that dude in chat. I already had a pantone book and we were using that.

Proof:
Show Image


Yo if we're talking about toxicity are we forgetting how on stream you would make fun of people for not having expensive keyboards?

anyway this is an IC, take this to DMs and let people give feedback :)

of course buddy, but thats literally me playing with you all. When have I ever being serious  call someone poor just for not having a nice keyboard? never.  You guys have literally a command called !poor and everyone have use it and of course including me.

The screenshot that I share was me literally not insulting anyone nor bothering. I was sharing something that I couldn't when that happened.

only good vibes
« Last Edit: Mon, 10 January 2022, 18:11:04 by solarce »

Offline Evasive

  • Posts: 60
Re: [IC] GMK Kantharos
« Reply #54 on: Mon, 10 January 2022, 19:55:46 »
It's sad to see people brushing this off by saying they don't care or that it's bs drama since we might be looking at a designer getting their collaborative work stolen.

Hate to see it happen. Good looking set, but not worth the drama.

Offline JayHigg

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Re: [IC] GMK Kantharos
« Reply #55 on: Tue, 11 January 2022, 10:12:49 »
Such a beautiful set!

Offline quarkworks

  • Posts: 8
Re: [IC] GMK Kantharos
« Reply #56 on: Tue, 11 January 2022, 13:43:55 »
Never thought I'd like a set with these kind of colors.

GLWIC.

Offline NovaRMK

  • Posts: 318
  • Location: Your mom's house
Re: [IC] GMK Kantharos
« Reply #57 on: Tue, 11 January 2022, 15:39:44 »
Yo I think this **** is better than me and kozify, somebody grab the popcorn

Offline mixistor

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  • Location: Mexico
Re: [IC] GMK Kantharos
« Reply #58 on: Tue, 11 January 2022, 21:57:59 »
I find the colors really appealing, but the kitting and legends could use a bit of work.

The base kit is missing R3 PgUp, R4 PgDn for proper 65% support.
Those keys would be more useful to more people than, say, the second 2.25u Shift that's currently included. The presence of proper spacekeys in the base kit diminishes the usefulness of the second 2.25u Shift significantly, essentially relegating it to 660 support — a layout that's far less popular than the various 65% variants out there.
That being said, there's no reason why all three keys can't be included in the kit, at least for the time being.

Speaking of spacekeys, you may want to consider moving the 2c, 2.25c, 2.75c keys to the spacebars kit. This can be done in order to offset the cost of the large number of keys in the base kit, as well as the overhead costs of the new legend molds that will need to be produced for the lowercase Greek sublegends. As an aside, moving these keys would also help the spacebars kit more easily meet its MOQ.
However, I recommend leaving that decision until after you've gotten your first round of quotes from GMK.

There is no need for the second Tab key in the Latin alphas kit. Second Tab only helps if you're offering a full alt alphas kit — meaning that it has to have a number row as well as full punctuation. Since your alphas kit doesn't, the extra Tab should be removed.

I suggest changing all Code legends to System (Sys on 1u) or Super.
Code isn't exactly the greatest option for an OS key legend, in my opinion. You can read more about why I think so here.

Now, to address the issues with the current Greek sublegends:
  • The quaternary (top-right) sublegend on the ;: key is incorrect: it's supposed to be a dialytika (¨), not a dialytika-tonos (΅).
    incorrect: ;:΄΅   correct: ;:΄¨
  • The W key is missing a dialytika-tonos sublegend in the top right.
    incorrect:     correct: Wς΅
  • The Q key is missing a colon sublegend in the top right.
    incorrect: Q;      correct: Q;:
Please see this Greek keyboard layout reference.

Also, as far as ISO-UK support goes (something a couple of people have mentioned): ISO-UK is not really compatible with this type of set, because there's no such thing as a UK-based Greek layout or a hybrid ISO-UK/ISO-GR layout. Therefore, including UK keys in the base kit would not make much sense. On top of that, base kit space is already at a premium, and more valuable keys have to take priority in order for the value proposition of the kit to remain attractive to the largest audience of buyers.
That being said, I don't see any reason why ISO-UK keys could not be included in the Latin alphas kit, if that's something that the runner wishes to do. :)

I will work on all the comments you mentioned. Thank you so much for feedback

Offline beelzking

  • Posts: 13
  • Location: Weeb H*ly Land
Re: [IC] GMK Kantharos
« Reply #59 on: Wed, 12 January 2022, 09:59:04 »
Shame this set has a lot of drama behind it, but overall not a bad looking set

Offline Mandabanker007

  • Posts: 50
Re: [IC] GMK Kantharos
« Reply #60 on: Fri, 14 January 2022, 18:15:15 »
Sweet pfp

Offline catfromonomichi

  • Posts: 43
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Re: [IC] GMK Kantharos
« Reply #61 on: Fri, 14 January 2022, 23:18:25 »
These novelties look amazing!

Offline nvh2092

  • Posts: 585
  • Location: Private luxury toilet
Re: [IC] GMK Kantharos
« Reply #62 on: Sat, 15 January 2022, 12:29:16 »
I find the colors really appealing, but the kitting and legends could use a bit of work.

The base kit is missing R3 PgUp, R4 PgDn for proper 65% support.
Those keys would be more useful to more people than, say, the second 2.25u Shift that's currently included. The presence of proper spacekeys in the base kit diminishes the usefulness of the second 2.25u Shift significantly, essentially relegating it to 660 support — a layout that's far less popular than the various 65% variants out there.
That being said, there's no reason why all three keys can't be included in the kit, at least for the time being.

Speaking of spacekeys, you may want to consider moving the 2c, 2.25c, 2.75c keys to the spacebars kit. This can be done in order to offset the cost of the large number of keys in the base kit, as well as the overhead costs of the new legend molds that will need to be produced for the lowercase Greek sublegends. As an aside, moving these keys would also help the spacebars kit more easily meet its MOQ.
However, I recommend leaving that decision until after you've gotten your first round of quotes from GMK.

There is no need for the second Tab key in the Latin alphas kit. Second Tab only helps if you're offering a full alt alphas kit — meaning that it has to have a number row as well as full punctuation. Since your alphas kit doesn't, the extra Tab should be removed.

I suggest changing all Code legends to System (Sys on 1u) or Super.
Code isn't exactly the greatest option for an OS key legend, in my opinion. You can read more about why I think so here.

Now, to address the issues with the current Greek sublegends:
  • The quaternary (top-right) sublegend on the ;: key is incorrect: it's supposed to be a dialytika (¨), not a dialytika-tonos (΅).
    incorrect: ;:΄΅   correct: ;:΄¨
  • The W key is missing a dialytika-tonos sublegend in the top right.
    incorrect:     correct: Wς΅
  • The Q key is missing a colon sublegend in the top right.
    incorrect: Q;      correct: Q;:
Please see this Greek keyboard layout reference.

Also, as far as ISO-UK support goes (something a couple of people have mentioned): ISO-UK is not really compatible with this type of set, because there's no such thing as a UK-based Greek layout or a hybrid ISO-UK/ISO-GR layout. Therefore, including UK keys in the base kit would not make much sense. On top of that, base kit space is already at a premium, and more valuable keys have to take priority in order for the value proposition of the kit to remain attractive to the largest audience of buyers.
That being said, I don't see any reason why ISO-UK keys could not be included in the Latin alphas kit, if that's something that the runner wishes to do. :)

I will work on all the comments you mentioned. Thank you so much for feedback
I want to add something about the novelty kit, can you consider copying some of the 1u keys from R4 to R1? TKL and 75s users will want to use R1 1u keys for Function row or nav clusters.

Offline scr4tchit

  • Posts: 3
  • Location: United Kingdom
Re: [IC] GMK Kantharos
« Reply #63 on: Mon, 17 January 2022, 16:23:22 »
looks sweet

Offline QuixoNik

  • Posts: 4
Re: [IC] GMK Kantharos
« Reply #64 on: Mon, 17 January 2022, 18:57:17 »
Not sure I can back a set with so much drama already involved.

Offline WarlordGorguts

  • Posts: 42
Re: [IC] GMK Kantharos
« Reply #65 on: Sun, 30 January 2022, 10:27:03 »
Love the theme and colors.
Drama, not so much.

Offline oilpapers

  • Posts: 84
Re: [IC] GMK Kantharos
« Reply #66 on: Mon, 07 February 2022, 06:04:08 »
No way am I supporting this set, not after all that. A shame because the orange pops and the novelties are great.

Disappointed to see the response in the GMK Mictlan discord too.
« Last Edit: Mon, 07 February 2022, 06:06:29 by oilpapers »

Offline scapegoat4

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Re: [IC] GMK Kantharos
« Reply #67 on: Sat, 12 February 2022, 00:51:53 »
super dope set, 100% grabbing this if a GB does end up happening. Would love to combo this with a wood case!

Offline milka158

  • Posts: 47
Re: [IC] GMK Kantharos
« Reply #68 on: Sat, 12 February 2022, 04:10:46 »
Good looking set. Like the fact that you are not using capital greek letters as sub legends

Offline ylothar

  • Posts: 171
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Re: [IC] GMK Kantharos
« Reply #69 on: Sat, 12 February 2022, 05:15:07 »
Really good set but I just can't convince myself about white :p
«How much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?»

Offline mcmcmc

  • Posts: 250
Re: [IC] GMK Kantharos
« Reply #70 on: Sat, 12 February 2022, 10:47:21 »
this looks gorgeous

Offline Cylent

  • Formerly cylentshadows
  • Posts: 321
Re: [IC] GMK Kantharos
« Reply #71 on: Tue, 15 February 2022, 10:01:16 »
Hi, just a quick update that the Greek sublegend file has been updated in the legends repository to have the correct dialytika. Everything else has remained the same - if you'd like to add tertiary legends as suggested by konstantin you'll have to add those yourself with the provided AI file. Best of luck!

Offline hongoo

  • Posts: 61
Re: [IC] GMK Kantharos
« Reply #72 on: Sat, 05 March 2022, 02:32:53 »
Novelties are very interesting. Completing the mural with a desk mat is a brilliant idea.

Offline nvh2092

  • Posts: 585
  • Location: Private luxury toilet
Re: [IC] GMK Kantharos
« Reply #73 on: Sun, 08 May 2022, 07:16:08 »
Hi, can we have some 1u R4 novelties on R1 too. R1 has more use of 1u keys than R4

Offline selsik

  • Posts: 57
Re: [IC] GMK Kantharos
« Reply #74 on: Sun, 08 May 2022, 07:54:18 »
I see the appeal in this set, but I wouldn't know how to color match it with a case. Doesn't look good with white or black IMO. And brown cases are quite uncommon.
Topre >>> MX