Author Topic: Kailh/Input Club Hako switches. Thoughts?  (Read 7676 times)

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Offline captsis

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Kailh/Input Club Hako switches. Thoughts?
« on: Mon, 26 February 2018, 03:34:04 »
 If anyone has any first hand experience with the switches and is willing to share that'd be great. A few questions

I am a heavy handed typist and bottom out consistently. I have learned that'd they are designed to reduce this. But at the moment I have a sort of muscle memory where if i don't feel a "thunk" I don't feel if I have actuated it if that makes sense. As someone who is not particularly aiming to change their typing habits, is this a viable option? for reference I am currently typing on a 87' Model M.

Do box switches have any compatibility issues with certain boards or caps?

Hows noise?

How different is the feel between the Clears and Trues?

I haven't been able to find any site that sells samples/single switches. Any help on that front is also appreciated ;D

Offline Kevadu

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Re: Kailh/Input Club Hako switches. Thoughts?
« Reply #1 on: Mon, 26 February 2018, 15:43:47 »
I have not used Hako switches yet (though I do have a Nightfox with Hako Trues ordered...) however I have used Halo Trues (basically the same thing except not a box switch) and I've used other box switches so I think I have a fairly decent idea of what to expect...

I'm a long-time buckling spring user myself but I didn't find adjusting to the Halo Trues to be that difficult.  The Trues have a totally different kind of tactility than a traditional switch in that most of it is in the increase in the slope of the force curve post-actuation, rather than a dip at actuation.  But the effect is large enough to feel it and I found my typing adjusted to them pretty quickly.  And the very large bottom-out force will pretty effectively prevent you from going too far.

There shouldn't really be an compatibility issues other than maybe with certain artisian keycaps or something if they didn't put space around the slider mount.

Noise-wise, they're not silenced switches or anything, but do you know what's even quieter than bottoming out on a silenced switch?  Not bottoming out at all!  That said they still make noise on the return of course so they're not a totally silent switch but they're definitely on the quieter side of things.

I can't really comment on True vs Clear because I've only used Trues.  But from the force curves the Clear version looks a lot like an MX Clear or Zealio only with a higher bottoming out force (though not as high as the True).  Personally I don't feel like the pre-actuation drop really serves the goal of preventing bottoming out as it can easily make you overshoot a bit, but again I haven't tried them.

Unfortunately the switches have not been that easy to find.  The original Halo design got tied up in some legal dispute with Massdrop and as far as I know was only ever sold as an option for the K-Type keyboard.  And Hako switches only recently became available at all, and only through IC's Kono Store.  Hopefully we'll start seeing more reports "in the wild" about these switches now that people can actually buy them.

Offline captsis

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Re: Kailh/Input Club Hako switches. Thoughts?
« Reply #2 on: Mon, 26 February 2018, 21:36:36 »
I have not used Hako switches yet (though I do have a Nightfox with Hako Trues ordered...) however I have used Halo Trues (basically the same thing except not a box switch) and I've used other box switches so I think I have a fairly decent idea of what to expect...

I'm a long-time buckling spring user myself but I didn't find adjusting to the Halo Trues to be that difficult.  The Trues have a totally different kind of tactility than a traditional switch in that most of it is in the increase in the slope of the force curve post-actuation, rather than a dip at actuation.  But the effect is large enough to feel it and I found my typing adjusted to them pretty quickly.  And the very large bottom-out force will pretty effectively prevent you from going too far.

There shouldn't really be an compatibility issues other than maybe with certain artisian keycaps or something if they didn't put space around the slider mount.

Noise-wise, they're not silenced switches or anything, but do you know what's even quieter than bottoming out on a silenced switch?  Not bottoming out at all!  That said they still make noise on the return of course so they're not a totally silent switch but they're definitely on the quieter side of things.

I can't really comment on True vs Clear because I've only used Trues.  But from the force curves the Clear version looks a lot like an MX Clear or Zealio only with a higher bottoming out force (though not as high as the True).  Personally I don't feel like the pre-actuation drop really serves the goal of preventing bottoming out as it can easily make you overshoot a bit, but again I haven't tried them.

Unfortunately the switches have not been that easy to find.  The original Halo design got tied up in some legal dispute with Massdrop and as far as I know was only ever sold as an option for the K-Type keyboard.  And Hako switches only recently became available at all, and only through IC's Kono Store.  Hopefully we'll start seeing more reports "in the wild" about these switches now that people can actually buy them.

Thank you for the imformation! You said there was a legal dispute with MD. Got a source? Sounds like an interesting story!

Offline jdcarpe

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Offline captsis

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Re: Kailh/Input Club Hako switches. Thoughts?
« Reply #4 on: Mon, 26 February 2018, 22:49:00 »
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/703lqk/news_massdrop_blocks_use_of_halo_switches_by/

LMAO This is awful EA-esque

Quote
To summarize: Everyone in the campaign that chose Halo Switches will be getting a superior product without having to contribute more money, and while it is going to cost us quite a bit extra to produce, we’re optimistic it won’t increase the timeline.

Anyways! Back on topic :p

Offline Kevadu

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Re: Kailh/Input Club Hako switches. Thoughts?
« Reply #5 on: Fri, 02 March 2018, 01:11:11 »
So since they're finally available I just got some Hako Clears and put them in my K-Type.  Since I really liked the Halo Trues I was curious to try out the other half of the Halo/Hako family.

...let's just say that so far I'm not impressed.

I don't know, I might get used to them after spending some more time with them.  But at the moment they just feel like an inferior copy of Trues.  They do have a bit more of a pre-actuation tactile bump to them, but it's still pretty subtle and occurs so early I don't really see the point.  I mean it doesn't really tell you anything because you've completed crossed the bump well before the actuation point.  So what purpose does having a bump there even serve?

At the same time while there is still a post-actuation change in the force curve it's both not as extreme and not as sharp as the one in Trues.  These factors combine to make it so that I'm never really quite sure when I've actuated the switch.  While bottoming out is not as heavy as it is in Trues it's still pretty heavy so actually bottoming out would be fatiguing (and kind of contrary to the whole purpose of these switches anyway).  But at the same time I have missed keystroke due to not pushing the switches quite far enough.  The tactility is confusing to me.

It's certainly possible I might get used to it as I haven't had the switches for very long yet.  But can't see the point.  Nothing about these has convinced me that they have any real advantage over Trues.  They're an awkward compromise at best, not really doing the things that Trues are best at as part of some misguided effort to be closer to a more "normal" switch.  But if you really want to get the benefit you should go all-out.

Basically, get Trues.

Offline captsis

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Re: Kailh/Input Club Hako switches. Thoughts?
« Reply #6 on: Fri, 02 March 2018, 07:01:31 »

Offline HotRoderX

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Re: Kailh/Input Club Hako switches. Thoughts?
« Reply #7 on: Fri, 02 March 2018, 15:19:26 »
Going from what I have read from other reviews on Reddit. Seems like the Hako switches really missed the mark. The tactile bump is very slight and very high in the keypress.. to top things off there also the fact that they are slathered in lube on the side of the bump. I seen some tear down's of the Hako switches so people are expecting to have to de lube them to help fix the bump issue. I don't know if this helps but is something to look at.. also reddit has a fair number of reviews on the switches up none of them where favorable that i have seen. Which kinda sucks but these sorta things happen.

Offline Kevadu

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Re: Kailh/Input Club Hako switches. Thoughts?
« Reply #8 on: Fri, 02 March 2018, 16:12:46 »
Interesting.  Halo Trues didn't have much of a bump either but to me at least that was never really the point of the switch.  The thing I like about them is the sudden jump in force post actuation that let's your fingers know it's time to stop.  I'll have to wait for my Nightfox to see if the Hako version still has that...

Hako Clear though I can totally believe is over-lubed.  It's supposed to have more of a bump than Trues but it's still barely noticeable.  De-lubing might help there but it doesn't help with the more fundamental problem that the bump it does have is just too damn early.  And to make things worse the actuation point is really nowhere near as obvious as it is on my Halo Trues.  That's what I mean by the tactility being confusing.

Offline pixelpusher

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Re: Kailh/Input Club Hako switches. Thoughts?
« Reply #9 on: Mon, 05 March 2018, 15:33:09 »
Just got a set of Hako True put in my hot swap board.  I was quite surprised that I really enjoy these switches.

Before I typed on a full board, I was SURE that these switches were too heavy for me.  I expected a typing test would show me missing many letters.  But that was not the case at all.  Yes, they are heavy, but the actuation point is expertly crafted.  I have no problem with missing keystrokes at all.

They should not hype the tactility on these switches.  It is very subtle.  However, the spring force curve and switch actuation point are immensely satisfying to me.

It truly is a great time for mechanical keyboards.  These switches and the Aliaz from KBDfans are both quite excellent at what they do.

« Last Edit: Mon, 05 March 2018, 15:34:46 by reececonrad »

Offline oldcat

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Re: Kailh/Input Club Hako switches. Thoughts?
« Reply #10 on: Mon, 05 March 2018, 22:39:30 »
I'd like to know how the Hako clear compares to Hako true

Offline mustcode

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Re: Kailh/Input Club Hako switches. Thoughts?
« Reply #11 on: Tue, 06 March 2018, 00:57:56 »
I have used Halo True, at first I found them to be quite strange, but it's actually not bad after you got used to the feel. The switch supposed to mimic Topre's curve, which they kind of do, mostly by putting the tactile bump right at the top. But what makes it weird is that, unlike Topre, MX switches doesn't have anything that actually physically buckles and pop back, so the switch doesn't pop downward like a Topre, instead you have to push it all the way down yourself, making it feels very linear as there's a lot of distance after the bump. I guess this is why many people thought of the Halo True as a weird linear.

It definitely feels unique, which is not totally bad. But then again, after having used Halo True, Zealios, and many tactile MX switches, I've come to realized that unless there's something inside the switch that physically bends, buckles, or collapse, and pop back, the tactility will feel more like a bump and not as satisfying when compared to mechanisms like tactile leaf and bucking spring.

Offline Kevadu

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Re: Kailh/Input Club Hako switches. Thoughts?
« Reply #12 on: Tue, 06 March 2018, 01:30:10 »
The switch supposed to mimic Topre's curve, which they kind of do, mostly by putting the tactile bump right at the top.spring.

I know Input Club themselves make claims like this, but I can't for the life of me understand why.  If you compare the force curves between Halo/Hako switches and Topre they don't look anything alike.  They're not even qualitatively similar.  Frankly Zealios are a lot closer to Topre than Halo/Hako.

Topre's 'bumb' may start relatively early but it's also very drawn-out.  It lasts all the way to actuation and beyond.  This isn't true for Halo/Hako switches.  Frankly the bump that is there looks more like MX Brown than anything.  And for Trues at least it's even smaller in magnitude than Brown's bump.

But that doesn't even address what to me at least is the defining feature of these switches: the jump in the force curve post actuation.  I'm starting to sound like a broken record here, but that really is the whole reason I even care about these switches.  And Topre doesn't do anything like that, which again makes me puzzled as to why IC insists on making that comparison.

Input Club actually came up with a design that has a truly unique force curve and then stubbornly insists on comparing it to something that's popular but has been around for a while that it's not actually anything like.  If you go into these switches expecting Topre you're going to be disappointed.  But I like them more than Topre...

Offline buckyballs

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Re: Kailh/Input Club Hako switches. Thoughts?
« Reply #13 on: Wed, 07 March 2018, 06:17:45 »

I know Input Club themselves make claims like this, but I can't for the life of me understand why.  If you compare the force curves between Halo/Hako switches and Topre they don't look anything alike.  They're not even qualitatively similar.  Frankly Zealios are a lot closer to Topre than Halo/Hako.

Topre's 'bumb' may start relatively early but it's also very drawn-out.  It lasts all the way to actuation and beyond.  This isn't true for Halo/Hako switches.  Frankly the bump that is there looks more like MX Brown than anything.  And for Trues at least it's even smaller in magnitude than Brown's bump.

But that doesn't even address what to me at least is the defining feature of these switches: the jump in the force curve post actuation.  I'm starting to sound like a broken record here, but that really is the whole reason I even care about these switches.  And Topre doesn't do anything like that, which again makes me puzzled as to why IC insists on making that comparison.

Input Club actually came up with a design that has a truly unique force curve and then stubbornly insists on comparing it to something that's popular but has been around for a while that it's not actually anything like.  If you go into these switches expecting Topre you're going to be disappointed.  But I like them more than Topre...

Can anything Kailh make really be compared with Topre? I think nobody has mentioned reliability and long term usage?

Offline Kevadu

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Re: Kailh/Input Club Hako switches. Thoughts?
« Reply #14 on: Tue, 03 April 2018, 19:52:57 »
So my Nightfox finally arrived, which has Hako True switches.  I haven't spent a lot of time with it yet, but since I now have at least some experience with Halo True, Hako Clear, and Hako True I thought I would give some first impressions of the Hako True switches.

In brief: They're not bad but I'm a little disappointed.  Much like their Halo True predecessors the force curve still ramps up significantly post actuation which can prevent bottoming out.  The main complaint I  have is that on the Halo True switches there was a small but still noticeable post actuation bump.  The force curve wasn't completely smooth; it actually jumped up just a bit after actuating.  On Hako True however the transition feels much smoother.  And in this case at least smoothness is not a virtue.  The little post actuation bump of the Halo Trues helped your fingers tell exactly where the actuation point was so you could learn to stop pressing at that point.  It just feels murkeir on the Hakos.  Sure the force curve still ramps up post actuation, but it's going to take a lot more practice to learn exactly where that actuation point is.  And without that knowledge you end up overshooting and it just feels like a weird heavy linear switch or something...

I think it is something you could get used to with practice but I still found the experience on Halo Trues to be much more satisfying.  Which is frustrating since you can't actually buy Halo Trues very easily after IC and Massdrop's falling out.  Hako switches were supposed to be the answer but in this case at least the originals feel better.

Massdrop did just have a drop for their 'new' (looks like a modified K-Type to me...) CTRL keyboard that had Halo switches as an option so maybe we'll see more of them on the secondary market soon.  But that seems to be the only option aside from buying a $200 keyboard just for its switches.