Cherry switches... ever wonder???

[karlito]

If you could take a cherry switch from one keyboard and put it into another?
What they look like on the inside?




















Now you know. I have a lot of soldering ahead of me and one big question do I make easier to press linear switches by putting the blue stem springs into the black stem switches or just stick w/ the blue stem switches...

I'll post back if and when I finish replacing all the switches on the SMK-88.

[xsphat]

You are now my personal idol. That is all I have to say.

[mr_sf_applet]

Wow. Just wow.

[victheslik]

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[Whiskey in the Jar-o]

Awesome. So you couldn't wait and went ahead with the transplant? Will you do all the keys?

[Whiskey in the Jar-o]

I guess the plastic clicky bit is the part responsible for the lower lifetime ratiing of the switch as well?

[iMav]

nice.

[karlito]

Awesome. So you couldn't wait and went ahead with the transplant? Will you do all the keys?

yea i just couldn't take the stiffness of the linear switches anymore.  but damn i hate having my mouse so far away when using the G15

[karlito]

I guess the plastic clicky bit is the part responsible for the lower lifetime ratiing of the switch as well?

I'm curious if that's the reason as well. Could the snapping of the metal fatigue it more? Or maybe just that ridge on the stem wears out?

[Mikecase00]

Wow, great work.  Soldering all those keys is gonna be a big job though...  

I'm not well versed in the various flavors of Cherry switches and reading through your post has me a bit confused.  The black switches are the stiffer linear version that don't have a clicky tactile feel?  The blue switches have a more perceptible audio/tactile clicking sound but aren't as stiff?   Sounds like I'd want the stiffer black springs on the more tactile blue switch then.

Thanks for the photos.  It's so hard to find this kind of keyboard info on a US site.

[karlito]

Soldering all those keys is gonna be a big job though...

Yea, I thought desoldering all the switches was going to be a bear but it turns out it's not that bad. I removed 68 of the blue stem switches and replace the number row on the SMK-88 (the white keyboard) in about an hour.  I tested the keyboard after replacing the number row and it still worked so I should finish up by tomorrow.  Only reason I might not finish tomorrow is I might run out of desoldering copper ribbon.

[karlito]

well i finally finished w/ my frankenstein SMK-88. IT LIVES!!! lol belive it or not.  It took 10 feet of desoldering coper mesh but now it's done.  The only switch i messed w/ was the space bar switch, i put a blue stem spring into the black stem switch so my space bar doesnt click.

it took about 3 hours total... i think it was worth it though... but i definitely wish there were more numpadless keyboards on the market so I didnt have to do this.

[victheslik]

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[xsphat]

karlito, I am glad you found this forum. You rock.

[karlito]

karlito, I am glad you found this forum. You rock.

<3

[victheslik]

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[iMav]

Aww i get no love ?

EVERY member is loved and appreciated here!  

[karlito]

you'll get a <3 when you post your review of the HHKB pro that I know you're going to get ... I can just tell in all you're post you're trying to justify the $280 your about to drop on it.

[xsphat]

Aww i get no love ?

You're underage, so you get no love!  :wink:

[xsphat]

And karlito is right, I did the same thing before I bought my HHKB Pro 2, and so did everyone else here I'm sure. I'm on the SMK 85 now, which is my first choice, but the HHKB Pro 2 is really nice. Just decide on a color and order the thing.

[fkeidjn]

This probably isn't relevant to the conversation, but I thought I'd give some info for those who don't know already on the color coding of the keystems for the Cherry MX switches:

Blue = click-tactile (examples are the Das keyboards and Scorpius M10)
White = tactile
Brown = ergonomic tactile (examples are Kinesis contoured and Maltron), lighter feel than the white switches
Black = linear

The keystem colors are different for the spacebars.

The Majestouch Filco, depending on the model, uses either the black or brown Cherry switches.

I found the color information here at the bottom of the page.

[xsphat]

Nice link.

And I have a feeling Filco is going to be the next hot keyboard to get around here.

And welcome fkeidjn. What kind of 'board do you have and what kind do you like?

[mr_sf_applet]

I found the color information here at the bottom of the page.

That page has been confusing me for weeks now.  In the table headed "Operating Characteristics, Actuating Force and Key Style," I see references to "black keystem" and to "blue keystem" but none to "brown keystem." It looks like code C is the one for "soft tactile," which sounds like the characteristics of the brown Cherry MX switches, but the table says these have clear keystems. Huh?

[xsphat]

This is the first time I've heard of the white Cherry switches, and yeah, what clear switches? I'm so confused.

[fkeidjn]

I forgot to post where I got the brown switch info from. Click.  Can't read Japanese though.  I don't know much about the clear keystems either.  I think I'll contact Cherry sometime later.

[xsphat]

So according to that, the blues are the only clicky model. Well in that case, forget about the brown switches - I like my axe to click!

[mr_sf_applet]

I forgot to post where I got the brown switch info from. Click.  Can't read Japanese though.

That is a fascinating page, especially with the Flash video of a key in action. And you can actually see why the black stem Cherry switches are linear from those photos. Great stuff.

[mr_sf_applet]

So according to that, the blues are the only clicky model. Well in that case, forget about the brown switches - I like my axe to click!

According to the ergocanada web page on switches, the brown-stemmed Cherry switches do click, but so slightly as to be almost imperceptible. By the way, a Majestouch with brown Cherry MX switches is on its way to me. It cleared customs in San Francisco early Saturday morning.

[xsphat]

I didn't even see that flash video, so after that last comment, I hunted it down and that is really cool. The little link under the small flash window opens it full screen, and I watched it for about five minutes. That is some great keyboard porn. fkeidjn, welcome home.

[xsphat]

By the way, a Majestouch with brown Cherry MX switches is on its way to me. It cleared customs in San Francisco early Saturday morning.

Have you used these switches before? If not, what got you so into them? Anyway, you have got to tell us all about it. Compare it everything you have. I am dying to know, though I am addicted to the clicky and super loud switches. In the newsroom where I work, there is an old Remington typewritter. I hit a couple keys and the SMK 85 is louder than it! That's pretty funny, huh?

Anyway, I have a feeling Cherry could special order the compact 1800 with any MX switch you want.

[iMav]

Blue = click-tactile (examples are the Das keyboards and Scorpius M10)
White = tactile
Brown = ergonomic tactile (examples are Kinesis contoured and Maltron), lighter feel than the white switches
Black = linear

That info is also available on our wiki:

http://wiki.geekhack.org/?page=KBswitches
Although, it appears we don't have white listed at all for the Cherry switches.  

[fkeidjn]

I have a white cherry switch somewhere as a sample, and it the tactile feel is more profound than the brown switch.  I guess you can add that to the wiki  

[mr_sf_applet]

So do we know of any keyboards with white Cherry switches?

Something I don't understand. It's widely assumed that the black Cherry Mx switches, the linear ones, are the most durable, right? In fact, I remember one keyboard maker -- it might have been Deck, I don't recall -- having scorn heaped upon it in either a review or a forum for using the black linear Cherry Mx switches, and sacificing key feel for longevity.

As I understand it, the black Cherry MX is rated for 50 million keystrokes.

And yet we have Maltron using brown Cherry MX switches, per fkeidjn, while claiming on their website that their Cherry MX key switches last for over 50 million operations.

Das Keyboard II uses blue Cherry MX key switches, yet its website also claims that Das Keyboard's keys last for over 50 million keystrokes.

So can somebody explain the discrepancy?

[fkeidjn]

I think they're just saying 50 million in hopes to attract customers, while in reality, the way Das Keyboard's website is saying it isn't actually referring to each individual keyswitch, and Maltron's site isn't actually referring to the keyswitches they're using.  I'm assuming that Maltron is using the brown Cherry switches, since brown is designed for ergonomic keyboards in mind.  Just go with what the Cherry website says in the features section: 20 million strokes for the tactile switches, and 50 million for the linear switches.

I've seen Cherry keyboards with white switches on ebay a few times.

[mr_sf_applet]

So both Maltron and Metadot (Das Keyboard) are engaged in deceptive advertising?

[iMav]

So both Maltron and Metadot (Das Keyboard) are engaged in deceptive advertising?

Is there any OTHER type of advertising??  

[karlito]

Just go with what the Cherry website says in the features section: 20 million strokes for the tactile switches, and 50 million for the linear switches.

I wish i could order switches w/ a 1oz Operating Force   Maybe even 1.5oz.

I even went looking for springs but I couldn't figure out how easy they were to compress

[xsphat]

What do you guys think of this one? (The link only goes to the industrial page. The one I am talking about is the 6250, 3rd down on the left.)

http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/keyboards/Industrial/index.htm

I like it a lot, it looks so professional, and the layout, which is messed up, is very similar to the Apple Alps 'boards I have and I used those for long time. Plus I think I'd like the touch pad if it works with Mac.

And the key switch life is listed as 20 million, while the membranes on the site are listed as 10, so I don't know what that means. I contacted Cherry via voice mail and email about what switches that uses and whether other mechanicals they will built me one.

Thoughts?

[karlito]

What do you guys think of this one? (The link only goes to the industrial page. The one I am talking about is the 6250, 3rd down on the left.)

key caps look strange (completely flat)... maybe it's just the lighting. Every keyboard i've ever used has scooped keys.  ESC and ~ keys are in weird places. Other than that it looks ok.

[Whiskey in the Jar-o]

What do you guys think of this one? (The link only goes to the industrial page. The one I am talking about is the 6250, 3rd down on the left.)

http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/keyboards/Industrial/index.htm

I like it a lot, it looks so professional, and the layout, which is messed up, is very similar to the Apple Alps 'boards I have and I used those for long time. Plus I think I'd like the touch pad if it works with Mac.

And the key switch life is listed as 20 million, while the membranes on the site are listed as 10, so I don't know what that means. I contacted Cherry via voice mail and email about what switches that uses and whether other mechanicals they will built me one.

Thoughts?

Cherry Cymotion technology (like my Master Solar).  It is a membrane, but not like any other membrane I've tried. It is soft, yet very bashable, I don't know how to describe it. The action is even and deep, and it doesn't feel rubbery at all. You can type lightly with your fingers just above the keytops, or you can bash the hell out of it and build a good rhythm. Loud.

The keytops are 20% larger than normal. They are scooped, but very mildly so. It feels very sturdy. The keyfeel of all other membranes deteriorates after 6 months of use. The keyfeel on the Cymotions is very consistent. People who've tried my keyboard say it feels "robust", "heavy duty". The space bar is louder than the other keys. My favourite keyboard so far. I don't know what kind of finish they use on the key tops, but they don't seem to age like on other keyboards. You know, the worn out look of the right side of the space bar.

If you want to try this type of switch tech, I would recommend getting a very basic Cherry Cymotion Expert. I think they are something like $20 in Europe. Make sure it's a US layout of course. This one is probably a UK layout:

http://overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=KB-007-CH&tool=3

[Nonmouse]

I wish i could order switches w/ a 1oz Operating Force   Maybe even 1.5oz.

I even went looking for springs but I couldn't figure out how easy they were to compress

Well, this guy claims to have taken a couple of Cherry keyboards (G80-2334 and MX-8100) with the white sliders (nominal force 2.0 +/- 0.7 oz) from 2.3 oz (64cN) to 0.7 oz (20cN).  (The conversion from cN to oz is x0.035969431)  He doesn't go into too much detail on what material he removed from the slider, but he does link to a Taiwanese site that has more detailed pictures, and a Japanese? site with even more.  I particularly liked the flash animation showing the mechanics of the blue sliders' "click" action.  The images of the various sliders were nice, too:



I'm looking at picking up one or more of the MX-8100 keyboards to play with for a steampunk mod.  I like the 59 re-programmable keys and the integrated touchpad on 'em.  (If I weren't planning on putting new keys on it, I'd like the re-legendable keys, too.)  I wish they came with the bluesliders, though.  I'm thinking I may try to pick up a different keyboard with the blues, and swap them out into the switch bases on the MX-8100.  It looks as if one should be able to swap the different sliders out- has anyone actually tried this?

[karlito]

wow awesome post Nonmouse.

that's interesting I had thought about cutting the springs but I decided against it cause I knew I couldn't cut them all to be identical.

I'm thinking I may try to pick up a different keyboard with the blues, and swap them out into the switch bases on the MX-8100. It looks as if one should be able to swap the different sliders out- has anyone actually tried this?

swapping blue and black sliders worked just fine for me.

Frame-mounted keyswitches need removing from their frames before they can be dismantled. That typically involves unsoldering them from their boards - and that is often a non-trivial exercise.

That's what I had to do. Both my keyboards were mounted in metal back plates so I had to unsolder all switches which is somewhat time consuming but it's simple compared to actually opening the switches up.  I would have replaced all blue sliders w/ black ones if opening the actual switches was trivial but that guy is correct that it probably takes 3 minutes per switch... lol.

[xsphat]

I was messing around on that link that was posted a bit ago on this thread, the one Japanese, and I found this page on there:

http://park16.wakwak.com/~ex4/kb/tech.htm

It has pages like the Cherry MX switch page for Alps, IBM Buckling Springs, Cherry MLs and others. Dig it!

[xsphat]

Apparently, they call Alps switches "Big Foot" over in the land of the rising sun, interesting. And it looks like they got some IBM branded boards with Alps switches. Weird.

Anyway, try the Alta Vista translator when playing on Asian sites. you can copy and paste blocks of text and you can normally make out what is being said. Here's the link:

http://babelfish.altavista.com/

I know a bit of Japanese, and I can tell what language / dialect something is by the kanji, so if you don't what language it is, send me a link and I'll tell you what it is and how I figured it out.

[xyzzy]

Just found this step by step guide on replacing black/linear Cherry switches with the brown/ergonomic ones. I guess the same method can also be applied to the other variants of Cherry MX switches.

I don't understand the language but the images are very explicative. It also shows how to "create your tool" to open the switches.

If I find a bunch of brown axis Cherries I might try it on my G80-11908, which is almost identical to the one shown in the page. I think it'd make it the perfect keyboard. But where do I find them?? :roll:

[xsphat]

Why can't you buy them new from Cherry?

[xsphat]

I don't understand the language but the images are very explicative.

This might help you out with the language barrier:
But you'll have to forgive the occasional line like this - "A small US ... on the corn ice cream All of their own to store bought."

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fmy3c.com%2FD5%2Fviewthread.php%3Ftid%3D4625

Cool link, by the way, good find.

[Nonmouse]

Why can't you buy them new from Cherry?

You can.  (Well, not directly- you have to go through a distributor.)

[iMav]

I created a new "Modifications" section in the Wiki (see link above) and placed karlito's most excellent SMK-88 mod there.  

I'll post back if and when I finish replacing all the switches on the SMK-88.

Did we ever get an update on this keyboard post-surgery?  (we may very well have and I missed it)  Are you using this board now?

[karlito]

Here it is:


i mainly use it for gaming as the clicking sounds annoys me when programming.

[iMav]

uhh dont know how to use this forum thingy... how do you do images now? putting as an attachment isnt working. says it's too big or something so just go to that url in your browser.

Standard BBCODE ( [img] , in this case )

You can click edit on your post to see the code in use.

I suppose I could turn on allowing HTML as well.  

[karlito]

hmm that's weird i tried using [img] i guess i must have messed something up.

[xsphat]

Looks good. Are the black keycaps from the M10 and are they exactly the same size / shape as the white ones?

[karlito]

yea the black keycaps are from the scorpius. The F key caps are all the game size. I replaced the "clear" key w/ the "num lock" key from the scorpius and the num lock is larger than the clear since they were on different rows.

i just replaced esc, f4, f8, f13 (w/ print screen), f14 (w/ scroll lock), f15 (w/ pause).

the black helps break up the function keys for me so i can hit alt + f4 easier.

[iMav]

Nice work.

Still very impressed with the patience you exhibited in completing that project...and it is nice to see that you are using the keyboard regularly.  

Which reminds me...we have another member with a blue-stemmed-Cherry-equipped SMK-88 whom we haven't heard from yet.  (YOU know who you are)  

[ashort]

SLACKER!  Who is it?

[fkeidjn]

Here's what I received in an email reply from Datacal

I am sorry the brown switches are discontinued.

So no more brown switches available, just like the discontinued Alps.  I guess I'll go ahead in getting either white or using the blues from my Scorpius.

[mr_sf_applet]

So no more brown switches available, just like the discontinued Alps.  I guess I'll go ahead in getting either white or using the blues from my Scorpius.

Wait a minute. What was your specific question to DataCal? Was it concerning brown Cherries in a specific model keyboard? Or was it about the availability of brown Cherry switches in general?

If this is indeed true, then what happens to the Kinesis contoured keyboards, and the Maltron, and the  Filco Majestouch versions with brown Cherry keyswitches?

[fkeidjn]

Wait a minute. What was your specific question to DataCal? Was it concerning brown Cherries in a specific model keyboard? Or was it about the availability of brown Cherry switches in general?

Just the switches.

[xsphat]

fkeidjn, how is that vintage Fujitsu? Is it clicky? How do the keys feel?

[fkeidjn]

fkeidjn, how is that vintage Fujitsu? Is it clicky? How do the keys feel?

It's a capacitor rubber-cup/spring keyboard.  Initially, when pressing down on a key, you feel the spring, but after you press down far enough, the spring will release itself, pushing down the cup.  I could say it's semi-mechanical, but it's not actually mechanical.  I didn't get a chance to plug it into my ps/2 port of my computer, so I don't know whether or not it has the n-key rollover.

There should be a link in my signature to a site that explains more about the keyboard (if you could read Japanese), plus pictures.

[xsphat]

Use Google translator. It's not the greatest but it's better than nothing.

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fpark16.wakwak.com%2F~ex4%2Fkb%2Fmain_fujitsu_fkb4700.htm