[IC]New Original 'Panda' Linear Switch

[Vigrith]

The keyboard/keyset margins are much higher, believe me.
Supervan is in the inner circle of the keyboard manufacturing community. If you guys keep pushing him he might eventually release the cost of each keyboard GB haha.

When's this turned into my dad can beat up your dad? "Supervan is in the inner circle of keyboard manufacturing, he can expose everyone!", how is this even a remotely sensible or sensical thing to say? Doesn't matter if you say haha after, that's just lack of tact.

Here's my honest opinion and advice - make the new Pandas $2.5 each instead of $1.5, the price is so utterly out of whack and the people defending the prices because "you're saving money because the current price is $6 per switch" (which is a ridiculous thing to say but there's no point explaining why as per the last couple pages) are so out of touch with reality that I'd actually rather SuperVan robs them blind than not take the opportunity to turn a like 40 to 65 grand profit. If you're not willing to do 50-75 cent and try to make more money by increasing the amount of units sold then just go for 2.5 instead of 1.5, in all likelihood the people desperate, insane or rich enough to find the latter warranted will still feel the former is a bargain. Going for 1.5 was a smart move, I just don't think it's ambitious enough all things considered.

Please continue to compare selling half a switch for $1.5 a pop to buying Nvidia cards and/or other mainstream products, I'm sure it'll change the minds of everyone saying/thinking you're crazy (this is not aimed at you directly, it's a blanket statement). That said, people are entitled to spending their money however they like, I suppose spending $250 on 200 housings instead of going on KBDfans and buying an HHKB + silencing rings may feel like the sensible thing to do.

[oldcat]

I'm happy to see new pandas being made as they make excellent tactile housings but I think I'll pass on this lot. I find the Western vs Chinese pricing of these new switches particularly concerning in the context that both 27 and Invyr said the manufacturer told them that production of more switches would not be possible.

If you know what private GB usually costs in China for a majority of the keyboard GBs on Geekhack, you probably want to learn some Chinese to infiltrate into the inner circle of the Chinese keyboard private groups

I'm well aware that there is substantial mark-up in this hobby. But a 2.5 times price increase for the Western market is straight up insulting. From your other comments I have to ask, do you think it should be the norm for Westerners to subsidise the cost of Chinese buyers?

It already is a fact, not a future norm, unfortunately. Private GBs are not meant to make money, many times GB runners or designers even lose money because profit is not the goal. It has been going on for a long long time. If you are not aware of it, you just didn't know it (now you do).

As I said, feel free to call out all the other GB runners who have ever run a private GB with a large price difference between private GB and GH GB.

Again, I'm well aware of this. Please stop assuming that because I'm a Westerner I don't know better.

And I have complained about other GB pricing before too, but this thread isn't about those buys, it's about new BSUN ``pandas''.

Understood, the issue is complaining won't make the situation better, given what he has been through in this thread, I think the best way is to work with him not to make him angry.

[Poesjuh]

So, I guess I should give an applause for getting the panda's back, gj

I'm honestly too lazy to read through the last 4 pages, but is there any explanation as to why these were 60 cents a pop in the private chinese GB yet we have to pay 1,50 for them? It doesn't make sense to me that the exact same product suddenly more than doubles in price going from private to public GB. Regardless if the price is justified or not.

[oldcat]

The keyboard/keyset margins are much higher, believe me.
Supervan is in the inner circle of the keyboard manufacturing community. If you guys keep pushing him he might eventually release the cost of each keyboard GB haha.

When's this turned into my dad can beat up your dad? "Supervan is in the inner circle of keyboard manufacturing, he can expose everyone!", how is this even a remotely sensible or sensical thing to say? Doesn't matter if you say haha after, that's just lack of tact.

Here's my honest opinion and advice - make the new Pandas $2.5 each instead of $1.5, the price is so utterly out of whack and the people defending the prices because "you're saving money because the current price is $6 per switch" (which is a ridiculous thing to say but there's no point explaining why as per the last couple pages) are so out of touch with reality that I'd actually rather SuperVan robs them blind than not take the opportunity to turn a like 40 to 65 grand profit. If you're not willing to do 50-75 cent and try to make more money by increasing the amount of units sold then just go for 2.5 instead of 1.5, in all likelihood the people desperate, insane or rich enough to find the latter warranted will still feel the former is a bargain. Going for 1.5 was a smart move, I just don't think it's ambitious enough all things considered.

Please continue to compare selling half a switch for $1.5 a pop to buying Nvidia cards and/or other mainstream products, I'm sure it'll change the minds of everyone saying/thinking you're crazy (this is not aimed at you directly, it's a blanket statement). That said, people are entitled to spending their money however they like, I suppose spending $250 on 200 housings instead of going on KBDfans and buying an HHKB + silencing rings may feel like the sensible thing to do.

People gang up towards SuperVan. It's not good. He has suffered enough verbal abuse. Shame on those people.

Somebody needs to stand up and bring some sanity to the discussion.

Let the man do his thing.

[forevermadrigal]

Hi, guys. Please stop arguing.
1. About the price. I've thought the price out before October. I've prepared a lot of new pandas for guys who will join the GB making sure they will receive their new pandas soon after the GB ended. The MOQ of new pandas will be 10k. The price per switch will be 1.5dollar - 10k, 1.2dollar - 20k, 1dollar - 50k. Considering what I have paid for them, I think it will be a reasonable price. It's your right that you can choose to buy new pandas or not. I fully respect your thoughts. But pricing was based on how much I've paid for new pandas. It sucks that some guys try to attack me for another new reason, I haven't even given my price yet before the reply! How can you criticize the price before I announced？By your own imaging? Stop being immature, you guys are all adults.
2. About the GB. I will run the GB after quakemz and manofinterests tested new panda samples. I really respect them and thanks for their contributions. I will satisfy some guys' requirements renaming the 'New Panda' to 'Gsus (not Jesus)'.

Thanks for all the supports. Let's look forward to the GB.

I love how you try to laugh at everyone discussing the price which we assumed was going to start at 1.25 and then you bring it at a higher price. GJ.

[oldcat]

"No appreciation of SuperVan's proposed GB price."

As opposed to further aggravate SuperVan, the best way moving forward is to get enough people in the GB, so that the $1 mark can be hit.

Enough said.

I am also curious where the original Panda GB runners are? Are the molds really destroyed or not? We need to get to the bottom of this.
If original Panda runners can release an R2 at a lower pricing to counter SuperVan's pricing, maybe it will be good for the community.

Are you some paid shill for this 'SuperVan' guy or something? Camping his thread and defending everything negative people say.

The best way moving forward is to not buy into a hype/meme at all, not to just 'buy buy buy' to get some artificially ridiculously high price down to a still ridiculous price.

SuperVan or whoever he is (lol) is smart for jumping on this opportunity to make a bunch off money because the hype is certainly there and people WILL pay too much for this crap. Fine. But why you are camping this thread like you're being paid to do so is a mystery to me.

I am not getting paid by SuperVan. I bought some from the private GB, I paid the whole shipping fees for a couple of people in the US who joined the private GB, and helped distribute them, and I helped ship free sample to Huey (at my cost!).

If you had known me in ALF discord, you should know that I don't get paid to do such things. I helped many people get their boards without charging any fee.

[Quakemz]

Just a quick update for people that may be curious:

As of yesterday, my samples still haven't arrived yet. I presume they may still be held up at customs. However, both Nathan Kim and Manofinterests have received final samples, so we have that going for us, which is nice.

I'm not sure yet if Manofinterests has released any public opinion on them yet, but Nathan Kim did a stream on them 2 days ago that you can find here:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/341691791

When mine come in, I will also do a long stream where I test them, experiment with them, and attempt to make them identical to my original Holy Panda board (already have Halo Clears on standby). I appreciate your patience, everyone.

As for the price, I'm not really going to enter the fray on this one. Seems like you guys are fairly split between "I'll still buy it" and "My world is literally crumbling before my eyes."

My initial price thoughts are: Is it high for a keyboard switch? Yes. Is it TOO high for a keyboard switch? Not really. While, like most of you, I would like everything cheaper, this is also part of business. It's not always as simple as "This product costs X to make, so it should be sold at X or X+Y." There is always background stuff happening that drive up price. Look at the clothes you are wearing, the food and drinks you consume, etc. You encounter significantly higher markups on most things throughout your day, but never consider it unless it's something in a hobby like this, where it's not a necessity. Like the GH moderators and others have already said, vote with your wallet. If this product is too expensive for you, don't buy it. Then there might be a reconsideration on the price from OP. Anyways, unless I recall incorrectly, The first run of Pandas costed in the $1/switch range, as well. They were even more expensive on 1upkeyboards, prior to the GB, so this price really shouldn't be that surprising to anyone, IMO. Of course I agree that it would be nice to have them cheaper, this was pretty expected.

Also, I think it's pretty obvious that, at the minimum, the 20k MOQ will be met. I REALLY don't think people are going to be paying $1.5/switch for these. With the growth of our community and the popularity of the Panda switch hybridization, the 20k MOQ will be all too easy to hit. I really don't think it's out of the realm of possibility to hit the 50k MOQ either. That's honestly not that many switches for our community, and at that point, we're at the more original and more palatable price of $1/switch.

Anyways, those are just my personal thoughts, not me trying to argue with anyone.

UPDATE: My switches are slated to arrive TODAY, so I will very possibly be streaming tomorrow with them.

[oldcat]

Anyway, enough said.

SuperVan will do what he will do. No pointing in conspiring before he was able to deliver and complaining after he showed he can deliver.

Maybe too much at stake, and people won't let him go, and will keep beating him down. Holy Gesus, all the best with the Pandas.

I am going to build my 11th Canoe.

[Vigrith]

People gang up towards SuperVan. It's not good. He has suffered enough verbal abuse. Shame on those people.

Somebody needs to stand up and bring some sanity to the discussion.

Let the man do his thing.

I'd say "his thing" from hereon out should be laughing all the way to the bank. I'm not sure the psychological wounds of being called greedy outweigh the 400% profit he's about to make on little pieces of plastic. There's no sanity here to begin with, if someone's going to make a bold move like this they're going to get **** on - look at Ball0n and his friend on DT when they found the SAV boards, they got destroyed because they were making a ton of money off of people but they stuck it through and sold every last board they wanted to sell.

That's life, move on. I'm sure there are people worse off than him. He's a grown man as per one of his posts earlier. I don't think they let infants run banks.

[Darknight00z]

Thank you Oh_Chesteroni, that was very eloquently put, a lot of sense and respect and not bashing.

It brought a tear to my eye.


P.s. I recommed everyone to take a read, if not now, maybe when you have time in the loo doing your business.

[oldcat]

And guys, GMK Carbon V2 ends tomorrow. Let's help make Bone Base meet the MOQ. Stunning Set.

[laserbeamspewpew]

Ya'll MFs need Gsus.

[mrpetrov]

How do you like them apples.

[donkey]

Hi @SuperVan,

Two requests:

1. Please consider selling just the switch housing to lower the cost of each switch to a level many more will be happy with. I don't think anyone is interested in the stem and there are many alternate sources for springs.

2. In the upcoming International GB, please provide checkboxes or textfields to pick which price point the buyer is willing to buy at. For example:


[ ] $1.20 @10K
[X] $1.00 @20K
[X] $0.80 @50K

or


[ 70] $1.20 @10K
[140] $1.00 @20K
[210] $0.80 @50K


FYI, I've used the "housing-only" pricing based on ballpark guessing and wishful thinking. No offense intended.

Best,

[SuperVan]

For one thing, I ran a private GB in China for advertising panda switch. Actually pandas was not popular in China. You guys don't even know the limitation of private GB.

For another, it was a non-profit gb. Thanks for these guys' support and trust.  It ended before NK's stream. It means they need a lot of courage to support me before the confirmation. Considering the cost of molds and occupation of fund of spot goods, I can say it was a non-profit gb. If you guys can provide panda switches at a low price even as same a guy said at 0.2 dollar. I would like to thank him for his contribution. You can question the price, but not surmise by yourself.

What is more. Of course you guys have right to join of skip the GB. As the runner of GB, I also have right to price. I won't change the price. Don't compare the price with the price of China's private GB. It just hitted MOQ.

If you guys think 1.5 dollar is too expensive. The most correct way is helping me to advertise instead of attacking me. Then the price will be drop to 1 dollar. Attacking me won't change anything, the GB will run also.

At the last, I will show you guys a new pic. These boxes are filled up with new pandas. It means I will ship them soon after the GB ended.

[Gajible]

As a final word from myself on this matter:

To everyone new to the community, or new to the custom switch game, this isn't a normal price, this isn't a reasonable price and I strongly recommend you look elsewhere instead of buying into this hype train.

 The Panda switch on its own is a mediocre linear switch. Consider that to achieve the tactile "Holy Panda" switch, you'll need to buy an equal amount of Halo switches from Massdrop and combine the two. Massdrop isn't even running a buy currently, so you're looking at inevitably inflated aftermarket prices until then.

If you're looking for a good linear switch, anything offered by Cherry, Gateron, Kailh, and even Zeal is a better bargain.

 If you're deadset on "Holy Pandas" and hate your wallet, then by all means.

[mrpetrov]

Kudos to you again Supervan for paying for the production before the public GB is run, shows you put both your trust and your own money behind the products to fund the working capital. Can you tell us how many pandas you've produced already?

[donkey]

Re alternatives:

- Zealios V2: I built a board yesterday using 62g. This switch feels very similar to Holy Panda. Only thing it lacks is really the half up slope of the bump (bump starts right away) and quarter of the down slope (Panda leaf is longer).

- Holy BSUN with rubberband mod: This one feels closes to Holy Panda experience, say 80% there. On top of Halo stem in BSUN switch housing and spring, insert a small piece of a wide rubberband behind one of the contact leaves. See https://imgur.com/gallery/csOFYRU. Bump doesn't feel as long but overall feel is the same.

I'm going to get some of the new Pandas because I think it's an excellent switch to have for modding. Only uncertainty is in how many I'll be getting.

[rondg]

Wow. So many passionate people in our community!

It's worth it if you think it's worth it. It will be different for each person. Some are not willing to shell out their hard-earned cash to buy this at $1.50, while some are.
Some people are voicing out their disappointment and I get that. It is an expensive switch compared to other switches, but that is a decision that you have to make - to buy or not to buy.
I am joining the group buy. For me, at that price, it is worth it even for the experience alone. I need to satisfy my curiosity  .

Have a nice day everyone!

[Acereconkeys]

I am a huge fan of MX tactiles, and the news you are going to ignore community feedback regarding price saddens me.

The final thing i'll say that irks me is that you say that Chinese community deserved the "not for profit" price of 0.60 because they "believed in you" yet you gave no opportunity for people in this community to join at that price. This leaves a sour taste in my mouth and to me shows pretty clearly your respect.

I don't harbor any negative feelings towards you personally, only disappointment you're going to ignore the communities feedback.

[fatpolomanjr]

Ya'll MFs need Gsus.

That's what we're all trying to get!

[Remsky]

There is obviously a disconnect in how people are viewing the pricing of these new pandas. A lot of people are looking at them from an aftermarket perspective, while others are viewing them from the POV of the original run. But let's face it, pandas were not middle of the pack linears, they are pretty ****ty linears. Everyone is suddenly looking at them through rose tinted hype lenses because of one mod. Zeal v2's are more tactile and sell at 75c per switch yet people are defending a switch that is less tactile and is a frankenswitch that goes for 1.50usd just for the housings, give me a break. Comparing them to market price is insane as well, by that logic TGR GB's should be running in the 700-900 dollar range, which they obviously don't.

What R&D did supervan do to bring these back? I suspect none. Nathan showed on his stream how bad the stock springs were and I have been talking to him on discord, I suspect that they are just stock BSUN springs due to how low quality they are. The plastic used for the new pandas is not exactly the same as the old pandas. It could be a similar formula used from a different supplier that has a similar color to the old pandas, but Im not 100% sold that they are the exact same plastic formula from the same supplier. The stems are remarkably rough, which makes sense since the panda stems were as well, but when you consider everything, pandas are basically modified BSUN's, and so are these switches, although to a lesser extent. They dont use a top housing with a custom logo and they most likely use stock BSUN springs. The material of the housing is probably different as well between the R2 and R1 pandas, R2 could very well have used a cheaper plastic mix for the housings than R1. So the cost of making these new pandas is probably less than the r1 pandas, which were at around 30c a switch from what I have heard. 

Which brings me to this:

For one thing, I ran a private GB in China for advertising panda switch. Actually pandas was not popular in China. You guys don't even know the limitation of private GB.

For another, it was a non-profit gb. Thanks for these guys' support and trust.  It ended before NK's stream. It means they need a lot of courage to support me before the confirmation. Considering the cost of molds and occupation of fund of spot goods, I can say it was a non-profit gb. If you guys can provide panda switches at a low price even as same a guy said at 0.2 dollar. I would like to thank him for his contribution. You can question the price, but not surmise by yourself.

What is more. Of course you guys have right to join of skip the GB. As the runner of GB, I also have right to price. I won't change the price. Don't compare the price with the price of China's private GB. It just hitted MOQ.

If you guys think 1.5 dollar is too expensive. The most correct way is helping me to advertise instead of attacking me. Then the price will be drop to 1 dollar. Attacking me won't change anything, the GB will run also.

At the last, I will show you guys a new pic. These boxes are filled up with new pandas. It means I will ship them soon after the GB ended.

Show Image

The chinese run was a promotional run? How come I couldn't get in with a proxy then? Oh right, I'm not a part of your QQ group. In fact, noone outside of your qq group could get in. I thought advertisement was about displaying a product to the public, not only for a select few; funny how that works. Plus 60c per switch, considering my above statements on your R&D, is already a nice profit margin. If anything, the chinese run was a private group buy for your friends so that they wouldn't have to pay flipper prices for mediocre linears. If the chinese run had a set price, then why do we have MOQ's?

You have also sent out samples to three of the biggest personalities in the western community, a community that knows fully well what pandas are, and you claim that there is not enough advertising? Are you serious? Your little rant about jesus and poor people is a meme now, congrats bud. This buy is the talk of the town, there is noone who doesn't know it, besides maybe people on r/mk and even then people there probably know about this.

Which brings me to your MOQ's. You bring it up so much that the MOQ for these switches are so restrictive, yet you paid for the chinese GB's amount of switches upfront? What? It just ended one day ago! That is unheard of and quite bizarre. Next, I'm going to be real with you, your MOQ's are made up. 25c price drops between the first 10k, but also for between 20k and 50k switches? How many switches did you buy upfront and at what price? In order for those MOQ prices to not have huge profit margins, the switches would have to cost around 1.35c each to make (have to consider logistical costs) at MOQ 10k. 1.05c at MOQ 20k, you get the idea. There is no way that these switches are costing you even 30c each to make, heck maybe not even 25c each to make. As I explained above, your R&D costs (if there were any, which is unlikely), would be way lower than R1 pandas, which costed around 30c each to make at lowest MOQ. The MOQ pricing structure for cherry, gateron, kailh, etc are nowhere near what you are suggesting for BSUN. Not even in the same solar system. How is it that the cost of these switches can drop 25c per for manufacturing when arrow sells retooled cherry switches for 35-27c each depending on MOQ?

If you have already bought the switches, then that means the only MOQ that is listed is the one that you have arbitrarily chosen. This isn't a standard GB, we don't collectively submit an order to BSUN for the switches, we are buying from you as you are a supplier, and that means that your MOQ's can be different than the manufacturer's MOQ's; further proving my point. 

You have quite literally become the panda day trader. You buy switches upfront instead of after the orders from the GB come in so that you can control the pricing via arbitrary MOQ's and so that you control the supply of new panda switches. You sell them at ridiculous prices with disgusting profit margins because some people in this community think that aftermarket price = GB pricing and can be suckered into your pricing hierarchy. Jesus have mercy on your soul, the panda all father has sinned!

tl;dr
- MOQ's are unrealistic when compared to other maufacturer's. MOQ's are also arbitrary since Van is acting as a supplier, there is no collective order to the maufacturer like in standard GB's.
- There was little to no R&D done by van. Springs are stock BSUN springs, plastic mix is different, logo is different and most likely uses a modified BSUN mold. This also means that his cost to produce was lower. For reference, the OG pandas costed around 30c each to make, including R&D costs.
- The chinese promotional run was treated as more of a private GB. It's stated intention of being for promotion is a straight up lie.
- To everyone defending the price points: Does that mean that GB pricing should now be based on aftermarket values of their designs? Should popular artisan makers start selling their designs for hundreds of dollars because thats what they go for aftermarket? Should popular board makers like TGR start selling boards for 700-900 usd because that is the aftermarket price of their boards? GB pricing should not be determined by after market pricing, it is a slippery slope leading to gauged out GB prices.

[MonsterZero]

Get these to $0.5 and you have me mr Sun Bowen

[quinnx]

There is obviously a disconnect in how people are viewing the pricing of these new pandas. A lot of people are looking at them from an aftermarket perspective, while others are viewing them from the POV of the original run. But let's face it, pandas were not middle of the pack linears, they are pretty ****ty linears. Everyone is suddenly looking at them through rose tinted hype lenses because of one mod. Zeal v2's are more tactile and sell at 75c per switch yet people are defending a switch that is less tactile and is a frankenswitch that goes for 1.50usd just for the housings, give me a break. Comparing them to market price is insane as well, by that logic TGR GB's should be running in the 700-900 dollar range, which they obviously don't.

What R&D did supervan do to bring these back? I suspect none. Nathan showed on his stream how bad the stock springs were and I have been talking to him on discord, I suspect that they are just stock BSUN springs due to how low quality they are. The plastic used for the new pandas is not exactly the same as the old pandas. It could be a similar formula used from a different supplier that has a similar color to the old pandas, but Im not 100% sold that they are the exact same plastic formula from the same supplier. The stems are remarkably rough, which makes sense since the panda stems were as well, but when you consider everything, pandas are basically modified BSUN's, and so are these switches, although to a lesser extent. They dont use a top housing with a custom logo and they most likely use stock BSUN springs. The material of the housing is probably different as well between the R2 and R1 pandas, R2 could very well have used a cheaper plastic mix for the housings than R1. So the cost of making these new pandas is probably less than the r1 pandas, which were at around 30c a switch from what I have heard. 

Which brings me to this:

For one thing, I ran a private GB in China for advertising panda switch. Actually pandas was not popular in China. You guys don't even know the limitation of private GB.

For another, it was a non-profit gb. Thanks for these guys' support and trust.  It ended before NK's stream. It means they need a lot of courage to support me before the confirmation. Considering the cost of molds and occupation of fund of spot goods, I can say it was a non-profit gb. If you guys can provide panda switches at a low price even as same a guy said at 0.2 dollar. I would like to thank him for his contribution. You can question the price, but not surmise by yourself.

What is more. Of course you guys have right to join of skip the GB. As the runner of GB, I also have right to price. I won't change the price. Don't compare the price with the price of China's private GB. It just hitted MOQ.

If you guys think 1.5 dollar is too expensive. The most correct way is helping me to advertise instead of attacking me. Then the price will be drop to 1 dollar. Attacking me won't change anything, the GB will run also.

At the last, I will show you guys a new pic. These boxes are filled up with new pandas. It means I will ship them soon after the GB ended.

Show Image

The chinese run was a promotional run? How come I couldn't get in with a proxy then? Oh right, I'm not a part of your QQ group. In fact, noone outside of your qq group could get in. I thought advertisement was about displaying a product to the public, not only for a select few; funny how that works. Plus 60c per switch, considering my above statements on your R&D, is already a nice profit margin. If anything, the chinese run was a private group buy for your friends so that they wouldn't have to pay flipper prices for mediocre linears.

You have also sent out samples to three of the biggest personalities in the western community, a community that knows fully well what pandas are, and you claim that there is not enough advertising? Are you serious? Your little rant about jesus and poor people is a meme now, congrats bud. This buy is the talk of the town, there is noone who doesn't know it, besides maybe people on r/mk and even then people there probably know about this.

Which brings me to your MOQ's. You bring it up so much that the MOQ for these switches are so restrictive, yet you paid for the western GB's amount of switches upfront? What? That is unheard of and quite bizarre. Next, I'm going to be real with you, your MOQ's are made up. 25c price drops between the first 10k, but also for between 20k and 50k switches? How many switches did you buy upfront and at what price? In order for those MOQ prices to not have huge profit margins, the switches would have to cost around 1.35c each to make (have to consider logistical costs) at MOQ 10k. 1.05c at MOQ 20k, you get the idea. There is no way that these switches are costing you even 30c each to make, heck maybe not even 25c each to make. As I explained above, your R&D costs (if there were any, which is unlikely), would be way lower than R1 pandas, which costed around 30c each to make at lowest MOQ. The MOQ pricing structure for cherry, gateron, kailh, etc are nowhere near what you are suggesting for BSUN. Not even in the same solar system.

If you have already bought the switches, then that means the only MOQ that is listed is the one that you have arbitrarily chosen. This isn't a standard GB, we don't collectively submit an order to BSUN for the switches, we are buying from you as you are a supplier, and that means that your MOQ's can be different than the manufacturer's MOQ's; further proving my point. 

You have quite literally become the panda day trader. You buy switches upfront instead of after the orders from the GB come in so that you can control the pricing via arbitrary MOQ's and so that you control the supply of new panda switches. You sell them at ridiculous prices with disgusting profit margins because some people in this community think that aftermarket price = GB pricing and can be suckered into your pricing hierarchy. Jesus have mercy on your soul, the panda all father has sinned!

tl;dr
- MOQ's are unrealistic when compared to other maufacturer's. MOQ's are also arbitrary since Van is acting as a supplier, there is no collective order to the maufacturer like in standard GB's.
- There was little to no R&D done by van. Springs are stock BSUN springs, plastic mix is different, logo is different and most likely uses a modified BSUN mold. This also means that his cost to produce was lower. For reference, the OG pandas costed around 30c each to make, including R&D costs.
- The chinese promotional run was treated as more of a private GB. It's stated intention of being for promotion is a straight up lie.
- To everyone defending the price points: Does that mean that GB pricing should now be based on aftermarket values of their designs? Should popular artisan makers start selling their designs for hundreds of dollars because thats what they go for aftermarket? Should popular board makers like TGR start selling boards for 700-900 usd because that is the aftermarket price of their boards? GB pricing should not be determined by after market pricing, it is a slippery slope leading to gauged out GB prices.

This.
My experience with headphile folks and then this keep me far away from the drama of this switch. Always remember a hobby is a hobby nonetheless, it is always about replicate YOUR personal state whether it is a sound signature of the headphone or the typing profile of the switch . But Remsky already say this with black and white explaination what can potentially (and already) happen. At first it was a fun and meme-ish cuz the critical but now we can see the true intention of supervan. Given his exp in banking he knows damn well to rip people off.

[SuperVan]

There is obviously a disconnect in how people are viewing the pricing of these new pandas. A lot of people are looking at them from an aftermarket perspective, while others are viewing them from the POV of the original run. But let's face it, pandas were not middle of the pack linears, they are pretty ****ty linears. Everyone is suddenly looking at them through rose tinted hype lenses because of one mod. Zeal v2's are more tactile and sell at 75c per switch yet people are defending a switch that is less tactile and is a frankenswitch that goes for 1.50usd just for the housings, give me a break. Comparing them to market price is insane as well, by that logic TGR GB's should be running in the 700-900 dollar range, which they obviously don't.

What R&D did supervan do to bring these back? I suspect none. Nathan showed on his stream how bad the stock springs were and I have been talking to him on discord, I suspect that they are just stock BSUN springs due to how low quality they are. The plastic used for the new pandas is not exactly the same as the old pandas. It could be a similar formula used from a different supplier that has a similar color to the old pandas, but Im not 100% sold that they are the exact same plastic formula from the same supplier. The stems are remarkably rough, which makes sense since the panda stems were as well, but when you consider everything, pandas are basically modified BSUN's, and so are these switches, although to a lesser extent. They dont use a top housing with a custom logo and they most likely use stock BSUN springs. The material of the housing is probably different as well between the R2 and R1 pandas, R2 could very well have used a cheaper plastic mix for the housings than R1. So the cost of making these new pandas is probably less than the r1 pandas, which were at around 30c a switch from what I have heard. 

Which brings me to this:

For one thing, I ran a private GB in China for advertising panda switch. Actually pandas was not popular in China. You guys don't even know the limitation of private GB.

For another, it was a non-profit gb. Thanks for these guys' support and trust.  It ended before NK's stream. It means they need a lot of courage to support me before the confirmation. Considering the cost of molds and occupation of fund of spot goods, I can say it was a non-profit gb. If you guys can provide panda switches at a low price even as same a guy said at 0.2 dollar. I would like to thank him for his contribution. You can question the price, but not surmise by yourself.

What is more. Of course you guys have right to join of skip the GB. As the runner of GB, I also have right to price. I won't change the price. Don't compare the price with the price of China's private GB. It just hitted MOQ.

If you guys think 1.5 dollar is too expensive. The most correct way is helping me to advertise instead of attacking me. Then the price will be drop to 1 dollar. Attacking me won't change anything, the GB will run also.

At the last, I will show you guys a new pic. These boxes are filled up with new pandas. It means I will ship them soon after the GB ended.

Show Image

The chinese run was a promotional run? How come I couldn't get in with a proxy then? Oh right, I'm not a part of your QQ group. In fact, noone outside of your qq group could get in. I thought advertisement was about displaying a product to the public, not only for a select few; funny how that works. Plus 60c per switch, considering my above statements on your R&D, is already a nice profit margin. If anything, the chinese run was a private group buy for your friends so that they wouldn't have to pay flipper prices for mediocre linears.

You have also sent out samples to three of the biggest personalities in the western community, a community that knows fully well what pandas are, and you claim that there is not enough advertising? Are you serious? Your little rant about jesus and poor people is a meme now, congrats bud. This buy is the talk of the town, there is noone who doesn't know it, besides maybe people on r/mk and even then people there probably know about this.

Which brings me to your MOQ's. You bring it up so much that the MOQ for these switches are so restrictive, yet you paid for the western GB's amount of switches upfront? What? That is unheard of and quite bizarre. Next, I'm going to be real with you, your MOQ's are made up. 25c price drops between the first 10k, but also for between 20k and 50k switches? How many switches did you buy upfront and at what price? In order for those MOQ prices to not have huge profit margins, the switches would have to cost around 1.35c each to make (have to consider logistical costs) at MOQ 10k. 1.05c at MOQ 20k, you get the idea. There is no way that these switches are costing you even 30c each to make, heck maybe not even 25c each to make. As I explained above, your R&D costs (if there were any, which is unlikely), would be way lower than R1 pandas, which costed around 30c each to make at lowest MOQ. The MOQ pricing structure for cherry, gateron, kailh, etc are nowhere near what you are suggesting for BSUN. Not even in the same solar system. How is it that the cost of these switches can drop 25c per for manufacturing when arrow sells retooled cherry switches for 35-27c each depending on MOQ?

If you have already bought the switches, then that means the only MOQ that is listed is the one that you have arbitrarily chosen. This isn't a standard GB, we don't collectively submit an order to BSUN for the switches, we are buying from you as you are a supplier, and that means that your MOQ's can be different than the manufacturer's MOQ's; further proving my point. 

You have quite literally become the panda day trader. You buy switches upfront instead of after the orders from the GB come in so that you can control the pricing via arbitrary MOQ's and so that you control the supply of new panda switches. You sell them at ridiculous prices with disgusting profit margins because some people in this community think that aftermarket price = GB pricing and can be suckered into your pricing hierarchy. Jesus have mercy on your soul, the panda all father has sinned!

tl;dr
- MOQ's are unrealistic when compared to other maufacturer's. MOQ's are also arbitrary since Van is acting as a supplier, there is no collective order to the maufacturer like in standard GB's.
- There was little to no R&D done by van. Springs are stock BSUN springs, plastic mix is different, logo is different and most likely uses a modified BSUN mold. This also means that his cost to produce was lower. For reference, the OG pandas costed around 30c each to make, including R&D costs.
- The chinese promotional run was treated as more of a private GB. It's stated intention of being for promotion is a straight up lie.
- To everyone defending the price points: Does that mean that GB pricing should now be based on aftermarket values of their designs? Should popular artisan makers start selling their designs for hundreds of dollars because thats what they go for aftermarket? Should popular board makers like TGR start selling boards for 700-900 usd because that is the aftermarket price of their boards? GB pricing should not be determined by after market pricing, it is a slippery slope leading to gauged out GB prices.

Any proof？It's much better for you to put your proof here. I won't even watch it without any proof.

通过我的 MIX 2 上的 Tapatalk发言

[Justin_aka_OsP_SSJ4]

Prediction.

Novelkeys Kailh Creams housings are gonna wipe the floor with these "new" panda's.

Mike's also a stand up fella. Support the good guys people.

[mrpetrov]

I don’t understand all these coulda-shoulda-woulda comments about prices and costs.

If it was all so easy for supervan to do what he’s apparently done and materially recreate or imitate the OG panda housing - why didn’t all you coulda-shoulda-woulda’s do it?

Shame on all you complainers for not caring about the community enough to beat him to it and charge marginal cost.

I am loving the irony of a citizen from a China out-capitalisming a bunch of whiny westerners!

[Gajible]

I don’t understand all these coulda-shoulda-woulda comments about prices and costs.

If it was all so easy for supervan to do what he’s apparently done and materially recreate or imitate the OG panda housing - why didn’t all you coulda-shoulda-woulda’s do it?

Shame on you all complainers for not caring about the community enough to beat him to it and charge magical cost.

I am loving the irony of a citizen from a China out-capitalisming a bunch of whiny westerners!

Shame the complainers but don't address the complaints. Solid reply!

Also, China is state capitalism at its finest, so I think the irony is a bit lost there. Especially considering this is a knockoff of a knockoff, which is China's manufacturing bread and butter
 Edit: Heck, he even stole the name!

[Remsky]

Any proof？It's much better for you to put your proof here. I won't even watch it without any proof.

通过我的 MIX 2 上的 Tapatalk发言

Look at any supplier site for MX style switches via part number, their MOQ's are quite different from yours. Some suppliers list 8k+ needed at a flat price because they have non stocked, this falls in line with the MOQ that pandas needed at 8250. Keep in mind that this isnt directly from the manufacturer, it is indirectly thru a supplier. Many manus will not do further price drops for parts or products that are custom, like these switches. It is quite common to have one MOQ to have the product even made, then no other MOQ following that because it is not a regular product that the manu produces, it is custom.

Although these switches are custom because BSUN doesn't normally offer them, that does not mean that you put effort into R&D. You don't have to make new molds for injection molded parts, you can modify pre-existing molds. In the case of these switches, you could've easily made the leaves protrude more to increase tactility, the housing molds are normal BSUN molds, it is just the leaf and material that changed. This is backed up by the fact that the logo is still a BSUN logo and the fact that it uses a stock BSUN spring due to how low quality and pingy the spring is.

As for made up MOQ's, how do you already have the switches for the chinese GB when it just ended yesterday? The chinese GB sold roughly 3-4k switches. I'm gonna guesstimate that you ordered 10k. You are acting as a supplier. That makes you, not BSUN, the vendor of new pandas. No, you are THE panda day trader.

Any evidence to prove that I am wrong? Stop trying to play the victim here, you obviously aren't.

[Solotov]

Cheers up, SuperVan. It's your GB, your price. $1.5 is still 50% lesser than the previous panda after market.

[Remsky]

Cheers up, SuperVan. It's your GB, your price. $1.5 is still 50% lesser than the previous panda after market.

Time to start paying 1k at GB for jane V2 CE I guess then. Normal Jane v2 spots already going for 1k plus.

[SuperVan]

Any proof？It's much better for you to put your proof here. I won't even watch it without any proof.

通过我的 MIX 2 上的 Tapatalk发言

Look at any supplier site for MX style switches via part number, their MOQ's are quite different from yours. Some suppliers list 8k+ needed at a flat price because they have non stocked, this falls in line with the MOQ that pandas needed at 8250. Keep in mind that this isnt directly from the manufacturer, it is indirectly thru a supplier. Many manus will not do further price drops for parts or products that are custom, like these switches. It is quite common to have one MOQ to have the product even made, then no other MOQ following that because it is not a regular product that the manu produces, it is custom.

Although these switches are custom because BSUN doesn't normally offer them, that does not mean that you put effort into R&D. You don't have to make new molds for injection molded parts, you can modify pre-existing molds. In the case of these switches, you could've easily made the leaves protrude more to increase tactility, the housing molds are normal BSUN molds, it is just the leaf and material that changed. This is backed up by the fact that the logo is still a BSUN logo and the fact that it uses a stock BSUN spring due to how low quality and pingy the spring is.

As for made up MOQ's, how do you already have the switches for the chinese GB when it just ended yesterday? The chinese GB sold roughly 3-4k switches. I'm gonna guesstimate that you ordered 10k. You are acting as a supplier. That makes you, not BSUN, the vendor of new pandas.

Any evidence to prove that I am wrong? Stop trying to play the victim here, you obviously aren't.

Just showing your proof instead of replying premeditated. If you can't provide any substantive proof, I won't reply any more.

通过我的 MIX 2 上的 Tapatalk发言

[crykn]

Legitimate question. If there was truly zero innovation on these "new pandas" (which makes the premium price completely unjustified except from the skewed aftermarket perspective), then what stops another community member from using the exact same molds and just running a group buy for just the housings? Or even selling them with a tactile stem to minimize waste and maximize accessibility?

[Shenpai]

I am going to build my 11th Canoe.

Weird flex, but okay

[OtherAndrew]

I am going to build my 11th Canoe.

weird flex but ok

[Gajible]

Legitimate question. If there was truly zero innovation on these "new pandas" (which makes the premium price completely unjustified except from the skewed aftermarket perspective), then what stops another community member from using the exact same molds and just running a group buy for just the housings? Or even selling them with a tactile stem to minimize waste and maximize accessibility?

Nothing at all, other than a language barrier perhaps. Anyone want to partner up?

[Remsky]

Any proof？It's much better for you to put your proof here. I won't even watch it without any proof.

通过我的 MIX 2 上的 Tapatalk发言

Look at any supplier site for MX style switches via part number, their MOQ's are quite different from yours. Some suppliers list 8k+ needed at a flat price because they have non stocked, this falls in line with the MOQ that pandas needed at 8250. Keep in mind that this isnt directly from the manufacturer, it is indirectly thru a supplier. Many manus will not do further price drops for parts or products that are custom, like these switches. It is quite common to have one MOQ to have the product even made, then no other MOQ following that because it is not a regular product that the manu produces, it is custom.

Although these switches are custom because BSUN doesn't normally offer them, that does not mean that you put effort into R&D. You don't have to make new molds for injection molded parts, you can modify pre-existing molds. In the case of these switches, you could've easily made the leaves protrude more to increase tactility, the housing molds are normal BSUN molds, it is just the leaf and material that changed. This is backed up by the fact that the logo is still a BSUN logo and the fact that it uses a stock BSUN spring due to how low quality and pingy the spring is.

As for made up MOQ's, how do you already have the switches for the chinese GB when it just ended yesterday? The chinese GB sold roughly 3-4k switches. I'm gonna guesstimate that you ordered 10k. You are acting as a supplier. That makes you, not BSUN, the vendor of new pandas.

Any evidence to prove that I am wrong? Stop trying to play the victim here, you obviously aren't.

Just showing your proof instead of replying premeditated. If you can't provide any substantive proof, I won't reply any more.

通过我的 MIX 2 上的 Tapatalk发言

Its like I'm talking to a wall, no reason for me to reply further as well I guess.

[LightningXI]

First time chiming in here -- sure, one can charge whatever they want on their sale, but to see people support it because it's otherwise >$1.50 in the aftermarket..., it sure is very disheartening. It's frankly sad to see that people would argue that they'd rather pay $1.00-$1.50 for a stock switch that is, relatively, much more impractical on its own.

The improvements are marginal (if not nonexistent) on this switch, and it is only seemingly functional when paired with another controlled-supply switch like the Halo Trues/Clears. It's quite the expense, and it seems it will only enable these vendors to control prices as they see fit. I frankly am not finding much of the math provided here on the manufacturing side being reasonable, if at all -- if the OP would like to be understood on how the prices are justified, I would suggest that the costs behind the curtain be disclosed a bit more clearly as it currently does not make sense that the cost of production and manufacturing would be that high. If anything, it sounds more like this could be a salesman appropriating complete access to the supply/manufacturer to achieve free control over market price.

To put it shortly, the details are too obscure; the lack of transparency and the discrepancy in prices may make the vendor look less trustworthy. Altogether, it leaves a bad taste in the mouth to even someone who would be interested. I've found the tone and language around this entire endeavor very unprofessional on many sides, and as an avid enthusiast -- for those who know my devotion to this hobby -- I am frankly taken aback. That's how I feel right now -- I honestly like the switches, but all this trouble and high expense is not worth the time and money that is being asked for.

[crykn]

Legitimate question. If there was truly zero innovation on these "new pandas" (which makes the premium price completely unjustified except from the skewed aftermarket perspective), then what stops another community member from using the exact same molds and just running a group buy for just the housings? Or even selling them with a tactile stem to minimize waste and maximize accessibility?

Nothing at all, other than a language barrier perhaps. Anyone want to partner up?

Sounds good to me. I would quite enjoy the challenge of designing a stem to replicate the feel of the Holy Panda and actually improve access to the switch. I just lack any form of investment capital. And obviously the language barrier.

[keebweeb]

Legitimate question. If there was truly zero innovation on these "new pandas" (which makes the premium price completely unjustified except from the skewed aftermarket perspective), then what stops another community member from using the exact same molds and just running a group buy for just the housings? Or even selling them with a tactile stem to minimize waste and maximize accessibility?

To my knowledge 27, zisb, and Pete from 1upkeyboards tried this with the original manufacturer, but were either told it was not possible or the samples they received were no good or weren't the same as the original GB run. So it's kind of interesting that the runner of this GB (supervan/B. Sun) seems to be using the same tooling to make a new version of the switches.

[otanishock]

Legitimate question. If there was truly zero innovation on these "new pandas" (which makes the premium price completely unjustified except from the skewed aftermarket perspective), then what stops another community member from using the exact same molds and just running a group buy for just the housings? Or even selling them with a tactile stem to minimize waste and maximize accessibility?

To my knowledge 27, zisb, and Pete from 1upkeyboards tried this with the original manufacturer, but were either told it was not possible or the samples they received were no good or weren't the same as the original GB run. So it's kind of interesting that the runner of this GB (supervan/B. Sun) seems to be using the same tooling to make a new version of the switches.

I know. Its magical isn't it? All the original runners have tried and failed to replicate even their own products, yet a random guy from nowhere suddenly appears and claims to be able to make the exact same switch, and he wasn't even lying. I'm actually mind blown right now...

[Remsky]

Legitimate question. If there was truly zero innovation on these "new pandas" (which makes the premium price completely unjustified except from the skewed aftermarket perspective), then what stops another community member from using the exact same molds and just running a group buy for just the housings? Or even selling them with a tactile stem to minimize waste and maximize accessibility?

To my knowledge 27, zisb, and Pete from 1upkeyboards tried this with the original manufacturer, but were either told it was not possible or the samples they received were no good or weren't the same as the original GB run. So it's kind of interesting that the runner of this GB (supervan/B. Sun) seems to be using the same tooling to make a new version of the switches.

Supervan doesn't have to recreate panda housings, he can just mimic them. The reason why panda housings made switches super tactile was because their leaves are bent to protrude outward more (this is what the zeal v2 leaves did and walker also made a reddit post about this). So in essence, all supervan had to was replicate the leaves of the panda switches. The rest he used BSUN housings and springs, as well as a plastic mix that looked similar to the original panda housing color.

Supervan did not have to get the molds for the panda housings or recreate them, he only had to replicate the panda leaf and color.

This would also explain why he has little to no R&D costs. The housings don't matter for tactility, the leaf does. This furthers my point above that the housings are just stock BSUN housings with a custom leaf that is bent more to replicate the panda leaf.

[Starston3]

For those that are interested in buying these just for the sole reason to create holy panda. there are other vendors working on holy panda clones. full switches.

There is always a wei.

[otanishock]

Legitimate question. If there was truly zero innovation on these "new pandas" (which makes the premium price completely unjustified except from the skewed aftermarket perspective), then what stops another community member from using the exact same molds and just running a group buy for just the housings? Or even selling them with a tactile stem to minimize waste and maximize accessibility?

To my knowledge 27, zisb, and Pete from 1upkeyboards tried this with the original manufacturer, but were either told it was not possible or the samples they received were no good or weren't the same as the original GB run. So it's kind of interesting that the runner of this GB (supervan/B. Sun) seems to be using the same tooling to make a new version of the switches.

Supervan doesn't have to recreate panda housings, he can just mimic them. The reason why panda housings made switches super tactile was because their leaves are bent to protrude outward more (this is what the zeal v2 leaves did and walker also made a reddit post about this). So in essence, all supervan had to was replicate the leaves of the panda switches. The rest he used BSUN housings and springs, as well as a plastic mix that looked similar to the original panda housing color.

Supervan did not have to get the molds for the panda housings or recreate them, he only had to replicate the panda leaf and color.

This would also explain why he has little to no R&D costs. The housings don't matter for tactility, the leaf does. This furthers my point above that the housings are just stock BSUN housings with a custom leaf that is bent more to replicate the panda leaf.

If its as simple as it sounds like you said, why haven't other members tried to do the same thing? Not meant to be a rhetorical question. I'm just legitimately curious.

[Puddsy]

Legitimate question. If there was truly zero innovation on these "new pandas" (which makes the premium price completely unjustified except from the skewed aftermarket perspective), then what stops another community member from using the exact same molds and just running a group buy for just the housings? Or even selling them with a tactile stem to minimize waste and maximize accessibility?

Nothing at all, other than a language barrier perhaps. Anyone want to partner up?

2 steps ahead of u

but i dont think i have the cash to front it

so someone else might wanna do it

[Remsky]

Legitimate question. If there was truly zero innovation on these "new pandas" (which makes the premium price completely unjustified except from the skewed aftermarket perspective), then what stops another community member from using the exact same molds and just running a group buy for just the housings? Or even selling them with a tactile stem to minimize waste and maximize accessibility?

To my knowledge 27, zisb, and Pete from 1upkeyboards tried this with the original manufacturer, but were either told it was not possible or the samples they received were no good or weren't the same as the original GB run. So it's kind of interesting that the runner of this GB (supervan/B. Sun) seems to be using the same tooling to make a new version of the switches.

Supervan doesn't have to recreate panda housings, he can just mimic them. The reason why panda housings made switches super tactile was because their leaves are bent to protrude outward more (this is what the zeal v2 leaves did and walker also made a reddit post about this). So in essence, all supervan had to was replicate the leaves of the panda switches. The rest he used BSUN housings and springs, as well as a plastic mix that looked similar to the original panda housing color.

Supervan did not have to get the molds for the panda housings or recreate them, he only had to replicate the panda leaf and color.

This would also explain why he has little to no R&D costs. The housings don't matter for tactility, the leaf does. This furthers my point above that the housings are just stock BSUN housings with a custom leaf that is bent more to replicate the panda leaf.

If its as simple as it sounds like you said, why haven't other members tried to do the same thing? Not meant to be a rhetorical question. I'm just legitimately curious.

Because it is a common misconception that people have that tactility comes from housings, therefore people try to replicate panda housings instead of the leaves, which can increase or decrease the tactility of a switch depending on how far they protrude.

If you notice the stem of a clicky switch, the click jacket does not have as great of a tactile bump as tactile switches, yet their leaves protrude outward moreso than tactile switches. This is why stock mx blues are more tactile than stock mx browns, and why mods like Holy chickies work.

I guess people just haven't realized this, and thus this hasn't become common knowledge.

[Juiceion]

For those that are interested in buying these just for the sole reason to create holy panda. there are other vendors working on holy panda clones. full switches.

There is always a wei.

Which vendors? I am looking at new switches and the R2 holy pandas are my #1 right now.

[Puddsy]

For those that are interested in buying these just for the sole reason to create holy panda. there are other vendors working on holy panda clones. full switches.

There is always a wei.

Which vendors? I am looking at new switches and the R2 holy pandas are my #1 right now.

massdrop for starters

at least to my knowledge

[otanishock]

Because it is a common misconception that people have that tactility comes from housings, therefore people try to replicate panda housings instead of the leaves, which can increase or decrease the tactility of a switch depending on how far they protrude.

If you notice the stem of a clicky switch, the click jacket does not have as great of a tactile bump as tactile switches, yet their leaves protrude outward moreso than tactile switches. This is why stock mx blues are more tactile than stock mx browns, and why mods like Holy chickies work.

I guess people just haven't realized this, and thus this hasn't become common knowledge.

Ahh. Science. Thanks for the clarification. Was genuinely interested in joining and defending SuperVan the whole time as I disliked how people can gang up on one person, but now after I saw the pictures of those switches stocking up ready for GB, I realize this is nothing but a profit run which, don't get me wrong, I have nothing against. However that being said, it still leaves a bad taste in my mouth and I'd take back my words about all his intention was to help the community to grow. Never have been more wrong in my life.

[Starston3]

For those that are interested in buying these just for the sole reason to create holy panda. there are other vendors working on holy panda clones. full switches.

There is always a wei.

Which vendors? I am looking at new switches and the R2 holy pandas are my #1 right now.

massdrop for starters

at least to my knowledge

Also kdbfans... there might be more.