[IC] Reflex & Paradox - 60% O-Ring Mount (GB Preparation)

[Windeh]

Split backspace support.

(Attachment Link)

Show Image

These spots are looking quite (perhaps too) thin.

It's 0.5mm at the thinnest point, will see how the proto turns out.


I could always make it like this;


Trying to have as small a footprint as possible with this mounting method is pushing each material to their limits...

[Windeh]

Split backspace support.

(Attachment Link)

Show Image

These spots are looking quite (perhaps too) thin.

Updated the Plate & Bottom. Thought about it and I like it.

[pr0ximity]

I like the idea of the relief cut by the spacebar, I like how the mini's plate is designed and the relief cut seems like a similar approach.

The Reflex is a great idea, I've loved the idea of a ported case for a while now, cool to see someone trying it out.

[Remsky]

I like the idea, but I dont really see durometer affecting much unless you are comparing two extremely different durometers. It is true that the o rings will dampen the sound, regardless of what durometer, but also no matter what durometer you do, the same torque will applied, so different durometers probably wont have that much of a difference on plate flex and overall feel. Really like the direction though. 

[Windeh]

I like the idea of the relief cut by the spacebar, I like how the mini's plate is designed and the relief cut seems like a similar approach.

The Reflex is a great idea, I've loved the idea of a ported case for a while now, cool to see someone trying it out.

Thanks for the link, didn't know that there were similar attempt to tame the spacebar thud from way back. Very cool. 

I like the idea, but I dont really see durometer affecting much unless you are comparing two extremely different durometers. It is true that the o rings will dampen the sound, regardless of what durometer, but also no matter what durometer you do, the same torque will applied, so different durometers probably wont have that much of a difference on plate flex and overall feel. Really like the direction though. 

Thanks for the comment! I agree that for flex & feel, plate material has the biggest effect. I do also believe that the mind subconsciously link the sound to the feel of the keyboard, with a higher pitch feedback linked to a harsher bottoming feel.

The design when tightened, does not clamp directly onto the plate through the O-Ring, but stops when the O-Ring posts on the top & bottom of the case meet. Depending on the Durometer of the O-Ring, the plate will experience a stronger or lighter clamping force, therefore change the way it is allowed to resonates (and to a much smaller degree, feel).

Hope that makes sense.

By the way, love these types of discussions.  Genuinely surprised no one has asked what are the color options, or even what color I ordered for the prototype... 

[matrixzj]

for layout, hhkb will be considered ? I like it very much. But it is not a big problem , and I like this design. Even w/o hhkb layout, I will join it.

[1023andy]

I have some questions.
1. You said the price will be expensive, will it be over $350?
2. What color options do you have in mind?
3. Is there going to be brass plate? If not, what kind of material would be used?
4. When will the sample be made?

[Windeh]

for layout, hhkb will be considered ? I like it very much. But it is not a big problem , and I like this design. Even w/o hhkb layout, I will join it.

There are no plans currently for HHKB or standard layout. I think offering too many option will further raise the cost of what I foresee is already a very expensive keyboard...

I have some questions.
1. You said the price will be expensive, will it be over $350?
2. What color options do you have in mind?
3. Is there going to be brass plate? If not, what kind of material would be used?
4. When will the sample be made?

1. Pricing is still undetermined. I'm currently designing the keyboard without too much concern on production cost, and the prototypes are hella expensive. Once the design is finalized and quoted, I will again gauge interest with the final pricing, and determine the quantity for the GB. (I read somewhere that for every 10 IC Form entries saying they want to join the GB, only 1 will follow through... )

2. Depending on what color 7075-T6 works well with, as the material is not as easy to dye as other aluminium grades, especially since I'm looking at offering Type III hard coat anodizing. Dark Grey & Blue Grey seem popular these days, so they're likely a safe bet.

3. Brass plate will be the default option, while aluminium might also be offered.

4. The first prototype(s) is currently in production, and should reach me sometime early November.

[Windeh]

Quick renders of both bottoms

Reflex 60



Paradox 60

[garbo]

Hmm I'd voted for the paradox design in the poll, but I'm starting to think the reflex's grille looks kinda cool. Is that something that adds a lot of machine time/cost as compared to the flat bottom?

The weight coming through to the angled back on the paradox looks super good to me, though, and the bottom is cleaner without the recession.

[1023andy]

The paradox is looking so good, love that weight design.

[Windeh]

New IC Form to gather color/plate/weight preferences. Please fill the form if you are interested in joining the GB. I will be using the responses to gauge how many sets and with which options I'm looking at offering.

Thanks for your time!!

https://goo.gl/forms/KhUIRfux95XVa2v72

Hmm I'd voted for the paradox design in the poll, but I'm starting to think the reflex's grille looks kinda cool. Is that something that adds a lot of machine time/cost as compared to the flat bottom?

The weight coming through to the angled back on the paradox looks super good to me, though, and the bottom is cleaner without the recession.

The design of the Reflex bottom casing does incur an additional 10-15% across the quoted pricing for CNC machining, however the weight of the Paradox costs much more then the weight of the Reflex to make... I would suggest to just choose the design you like best, as the difference in pricing will not be significant between the 2 designs.

[hayt]

Submitted

I prefer the design with the grill, looks more original

[1023andy]

Submitted. I did the form twice cuz i forgot to choose shiny/matt option. How would the bronze tint on hard coat grey would look like?

[stxfreak]

Submitted

I prefer the design with the grill, looks more original

might be because the other one is just the jane weight, so I agree.

[typischt]

Filled out.
I really like both designs, but would probably be more interested in the reflex since I'd be interested how it would sound.
According to your explanation from above, I'm guessing it would be too much to have the weight of the Paradox and the grills from the Reflex?
Since there is no comment field in the form (I'd highly suggest to add one of those): Can't really judge colors and weight material from the description alone, so for me those two things almost certainly wouldn't be the deciding factor whether I'd get one or not.
Really looking forward to this and would likely be in depending on time of GB and costs.

[matrixzj]

filled out.

I like paradox very much

[Windeh]

Submitted

I prefer the design with the grill, looks more original

I too like the Reflex. I don't think you're sacrificing anything going either way, both designs IMO stands on its own.

Submitted. I did the form twice cuz i forgot to choose shiny/matt option. How would the bronze tint on hard coat grey would look like?

I turned on form editing. I too would like to know what the hard coat dark grey looks like. Lucky one of the prototypes are finished in that option and should arrive next week!! 

Filled out.
I really like both designs, but would probably be more interested in the reflex since I'd be interested how it would sound.
According to your explanation from above, I'm guessing it would be too much to have the weight of the Paradox and the grills from the Reflex?
Since there is no comment field in the form (I'd highly suggest to add one of those): Can't really judge colors and weight material from the description alone, so for me those two things almost certainly wouldn't be the deciding factor whether I'd get one or not.
Really looking forward to this and would likely be in depending on time of GB and costs.

Added the comments section. Thanks for the suggestion!

Sorry about the lack of images for comparison... for now I think we have to rely on our imagination until I receive the proto, it would at least cover 2 of the anodizing type & color, as well as all of the weight material & finishes.

[Windeh]

In case You're not sure about the differences between anodizing types & matt/glossy(Shiny) finish options in the form, below is some quick photos & comparison table for you to consider;

Normal Vs. Hard Anodizing

Source

Note that due to the thickness and color of the oxide layer, hard anodizing are normally only dyed in darker colors, with a tint depending on the aluminium grade used. In the case of 7075-T6, it would be a brown/bronze tint.


Matt Vs. Bright Dipped, (Matt on top, glossy/shiny below)

Source

Seems many Korean customs are bright dipped, which was the case for my TX60.

An interesting side note, for matt finish, if you slide your nail across the surface, a white mark will be left on the surface, which can be wiped off (Basically your nail transferring onto the harder and "rough" surface). For bright dipped, this does not happen, as although as hard, the surface is extremely smooth.

[romevi]

Wuddsy

[1023andy]

From what i know, matt finish is vulnerable to hand oil and fingerprints. Is it true?

[Windeh]

From what i know, matt finish is vulnerable to hand oil and fingerprints. Is it true?

Depending on the color, oily residue may show up as a slightly darker area on the surface of matt finishes. It can be removed with some alcohol like you would any oil, however I wouldn't worry about it unless it really bothers you.

[Windeh]

Teaser

[1023andy]

Looks great! Is paradox being made too?

[cldskt]

You might want to include the new IC form in the original post too.

Also, you are based in Singapore? Would love to try the prototype when it arrives to you!

[Windeh]

Looks great! Is paradox being made too?

You betcha
   

You might want to include the new IC form in the original post too.

Also, you are based in Singapore? Would love to try the prototype when it arrives to you!

All links in this thread directs to the latest IC Form, so everyone should find their way there to fill out!! 

Although nothing on the exterior has been changed, lots of internal upgrades & tweaks to the original design has been made since ordering the prototype. I will scrutinize the prototype once I receive it and make design changes/adjustments as necessary. The last thing I want is to show off a half baked product... 

The proto serves mostly for me to tuning the clamping force of the O-Ring, check factory tolerances & color/finishes, adjust any misalignment of the plate/cable port/seam/weight etc.

I will be ordering a finalized prototype before the GB. That will be the one to check out.     

[Windeh]

Quick update

The Opening Post has been updated with the latest information on the current status of the Interest Check, with a more in depth explanation on my design intent for this type of mounting system, (TLDR: NOT a traditional gasket mount, quite the opposite) and a new section on the purpose of the O-Ring Cutout.

The following is how the upcoming GB looks in terms of options & quantity, as gauged from the submitted IC Forms.

• Case: 7075-T6 Aluminium
• Weight: Polished/Sandblasted Brass
• Screws: YFS Grade 12.9 Alloy Steel Hex Screw
• O-Rings: Will include a few different hardness/material O-Rings
• Colour: Black, Blue Grey & Hard Anodized Dark Grey in Gloss/Matt finish
• Plate: Brass, Sandblasted. Aluminium/Copper TBD
• Layout: 60% ANSI WKL with split backspace
• Quantity: TBD. As currently stands, 10-15 spots
• Timeline: Aiming at December / January GB

Group Buy Method
From the IC, 1/3 prefer FCFS, and 2/3 Raffle. Depending on the distribution at the time of the GB, slots will be allocated proportional to the IC percentage, i.e. as it currently stands, 33% of the slots will be FCFS, and everyone that submitted after will be entered into the raffle. I think this is the fairest way to run the GB.

Which Design to Run?
current preferences between Reflex/Paradox designs seem to be quite evenly distributed. Hopefully with more form submissions we will see a clearer trend.

The IC Form
The above are by no means set in stone, and will be influenced by newly submitted IC forms. Currently only about half the number of entries received for the new IC Form compared to the original, so if you are interested in the GB please do fill them out.

[forevermadrigal]

Usually not a fan of where layouts are chosen for you on boards but this is the exact layout I would be using so bravo on this board hoping some more spots become available. 15 sounds way too low for a board this nice

[1023andy]

If you want to change the o-ring after you finished building your keyboard, do you need to desolder it?

[Windeh]

Usually not a fan of where layouts are chosen for you on boards but this is the exact layout I would be using so bravo on this board hoping some more spots become available. 15 sounds way too low for a board this nice

Thanks for the support!

Since I have not yet announce the price for the board (will need another round of prototyping and obtaining quotation for machining the final design in GB Quantity), I have to gauge the interest the board is having cautiously. Even though I did note that it will not be a budget or mid-tier board in the form, people's idea of what is mid tier pricing varies greatly, and most probably underestimate the likely price of this board.

From the material choices, finishing options, complex machining to the tight tolerance requirement etc., I foresee that this board would need to be priced easily above $450+ to break even my costs to produce them. At that price, the interest most likely have just reduced by 2/3. Remember that the board does not come with a PCB.

If you want to change the o-ring after you finished building your keyboard, do you need to desolder it?

No need to desolder. The O-Ring is like part of the upper & lower case, just unscrew & open the case to change the O-Rings. 



On Standard / HHKB Layout

Just to quickly address a couple comments from the IC form on the WKL layout singularly available for this IC.

To design and offer a standard & HHKB top piece is very easily done, in fact I have the files for those tops already in place, and the plate already supports it. The issue however is that at what point does the increase in price for the whole GB outweighs the increase in interest from offering these options?

As mentioned above, even with just the current options, this will be one pricey 60%.

I may offer different top options down the road, but for my first IC & GB I would like to keep the price (somewhat) in check.

[1023andy]

I hope the price is under 500. I need time to refill my wallet..

[Jkush463]

coool, cant wait to see a proto, pretty ready for this,save me a spot. even at the 500+ range.

[matrixzj]

quantity is very low :-( it is a bad news for us

[Mcnos]

Lower quantity usually means more in price. I might have to pass on it, but given the chance I'll put in for my ticket.

[Windeh]

I hope the price is under 500. I need time to refill my wallet..

quantity is very low :-( it is a bad news for us

Lower quantity usually means more in price. I might have to pass on it, but given the chance I'll put in for my ticket.

As this is my first Interest Check for my first Group Buy, I want to make sure that I don't over commit, give myself some breathing room and have proper QC for each part that comes out of the factory.

Because I know that there will not be too many made for my first GB, price was less of a concern when designing the Reflex & Paradox. This afforded me more creative freedom to specify exactly what I want in terms of material & finishes, and allowed the complexity required in my designs.

Not everyone will agree with the direction I have taken for this project, however without this direction the project would not have existed at all. There are already plenty of high quality 60-65% on the market in the $250-$400 price range, hopefully those that choose to join my GB will find value in what I offer at the price I'm offering.

[Mcnos]

I hope the price is under 500. I need time to refill my wallet..

quantity is very low :-( it is a bad news for us

Lower quantity usually means more in price. I might have to pass on it, but given the chance I'll put in for my ticket.

As this is my first Interest Check for my first Group Buy, I want to make sure that I don't over commit, give myself some breathing room and have proper QC for each part that comes out of the factory.

Because I know that there will not be too many made for my first GB, price was less of a concern when designing the Reflex & Paradox. This afforded me more creative freedom to specify exactly what I want in terms of material & finishes, and allowed the complexity required in my designs.

Not everyone will agree with the direction I have taken for this project, however without this direction the project would not have existed at all. There are already plenty of high quality 60-65% on the market in the $250-$400 price range, hopefully those that choose to join my GB will find value in what I offer at the price I'm offering.

That makes sense, probably be better to do fcfs instead of raffle. I know I put raffle in the form but fcfs would make more sense as this isn't a notable brand or anything.

[1023andy]

How does a copper plate feel like? There doesn't seem to be any custom keyboard with it...

[Puddsy]

How does a copper plate feel like? There doesn't seem to be any custom keyboard with it...

like a brass plate but it's made of copper so it sounds different

[mog_genius88]

If this happens I'd be interesting, pending price.

[Windeh]

The plate prototype has arrived!!



The switches snaps in super securely, absolutely no movement...   

Switches from left to right: Tealio, Hako Royal, Zealio, Halo (with Zealio stem) and Box White.

[1023andy]

Looks nice! Is the brass sandblasted?

[hayt]

How does a copper plate feel like? There doesn't seem to be any custom keyboard with it...

like a brass plate but it's made of copper so it sounds different

Smart ass

[Windeh]

Looks nice! Is the brass sandblasted?

Yup it is. All plates will come sandblasted from the factory.

[Windeh]

How does a copper plate feel like? There doesn't seem to be any custom keyboard with it...

like a brass plate but it's made of copper so it sounds different

Smart ass

nice

[juaninamilli]

The plate prototype has arrived!!

(Attachment Link)

The switches snaps in super securely, absolutely no movement...   

Switches from left to right: Tealio, Hako Royal, Zealio, Halo (with Zealio stem) and Box White.

Fixed plate with all of the right locations

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

[1023andy]

Is the plate coated too? The color seems a bit different from normal brass plate

[Mcnos]

Plate looks gorgeous.

[Windeh]

Is the plate coated too? The color seems a bit different from normal brass plate

The plate in the photo is actually not coated. Freshly sandblasted brass looks quite bright as in the photo. Brushed or polished brass plate have a very slightly deeper color unless in direct reflection.

[Etherealsound]

These are looking really great. I think that a sound test between the two would really help people decide between whether reflex or paradox is preferred since it's hard to say how big of a difference the reflex will make on the sound. I personally think paradox looks nicer but don't know how big of a difference the vents on the bottom will make on sound.

[Mcnos]

When are the full protos expected to arrive?