Why are 75% not more common?

[Fragil1ty]

I'm a huge lover/user of the 75% keyboard and just wondering what your thoughts as to why there isn't more form factor boards, e.g. 75% boards.

75%

- Noppoo Choc Mini
- Keycool 84 (Obsolete now that it uses Kailh switches imo)
- KBT Race (Not that common imo, I don't see a lot of users with this board)

60%

- HHKB Pro 2
- KBT Pure
- Ducky Mini
- Filco Matias
- KBT Poker 2

It just kind of baffles me that in my personal opinion, the 75% keyboard layout is superior to the 60%, yet there is far more options to choose from regarding the 60% and seems like they sell better also. Is there just not a high desire for 75% boards? And now that KC have switched to Kailh switches, I feel that there is only really two options to go for: and those two are listed above.

Any one got any thoughts as to why 75% seems like it's a bit of a dying breed? as it seems that people are only using either 60% or TKL these days.

I've also attached a strawpoll just for an easier outlook, vote if you want or don't, just thought i'd be a nice option to include regardless.

SP: http://strawpoll.me/2436153

[SpAmRaY]

I don't think 75% gets enough attention either!! While I love full size, I much prefer 75% over 60%.

[Fragil1ty]

I don't think 75% gets enough attention either!! While I love full size, I much prefer 75% over 60%.

I feel as if over the past year or so, the production for 75% has extremely diminished. It's literally impossible for you to get a KC 84 /w cherry switches now.

If you want to try and get a white Noppoo choc mini, it's hard to get that for under $400 (lol) and further more, it seems that the only switches that the Noppoo stocks is red now, it just seems like they're been phased out to me, maybe they're not making enough money or something, who knows.

[limitz]

Keycap compatibility maybe? Most 60% keyboards can be made with base + modifier kits. The 75% keyboards almost always need odd modifier keys to cover.

That said, I ordered a 75% from Sprit, and I can't wait.

[Roibhilin]

keycap compatibility+shoving in a dedicated arrow cluster usually puts other keycaps in bad positions (tilde, etc.)
also imo an extra row+column looks ugly

[Fragil1ty]

keycap compatibility+shoving in a dedicated arrow cluster usually puts other keycaps in bad positions (tilde, etc.)
also imo an extra row+column looks ugly

Maybe 75% is becoming a niche product, 60% is becoming to new 'go to' keyboard if you want a form factor and then TKL just still sits there and what not, as per usual.

[bazh]

I had used Race for some couples of months, I definitely love it, the staggered F-row and num-row, but the bottom row layout and keycaps compatibility are what made me sell it, but overall, I like 75% keyboard as much as I do with 60%

[strict]

The biggest reason I personally don't like 75% boards is that they are just far too cluttered. TKL is nice because you retain the dedicated F keys, arrows, del/home/pgup, etc in separate physical clusters. At least for me, that makes it very easy to develop muscle memory for their locations. 75% boards usually retain all the same keys, just smashed together in awkward locations and sizes.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought many 75% boards required special key sizes. TKL boards are usually *way* more compatible in terms of key sets.

[munch]

I just like the kawaii-ness of the 60%. 40% is lacking a bit too much for me though
well, and I don't feel the 60% layout is lacking anything once you get used to being quick with the FN key. it looks a lot better than the 75% IMO, too.

[FrostyToast]

I think they look kind of funny

[CPTBadAss]

2015: Year of 75%?

I've got a Siig Minitouch and an Epsilon which I really enjoy. It's still compact but has a lot of the extra keys that I'm used to. Just having the page up, page down, home, and end buttons on the side is wonderful for me.

[Puddsy]

I think they look kind of funny

i agree

they're gross

[Fragil1ty]

A lot of insightful information, didn't know it was this hated to be honest, very interesting! Always nice to see the points of other people to be honest.

[SpAmRaY]

I think they look kind of funny

i agree

they're gross

you're gross

[Fragil1ty]

I think they look kind of funny

i agree

they're gross

you're gross

Oh shiiiiiiiiiiiii. Shots fired.

[FrostyToast]

I think they look kind of funny

i agree

they're gross

you're gross

Such spam

                                                            Much wow
                         Very ray

                                               Many gross

[nubbinator]

keycap compatibility+shoving in a dedicated arrow cluster usually puts other keycaps in bad positions (tilde, etc.)
also imo an extra row+column looks ugly

Agreed.  75% boards are just awkward and tough to get cap sets for since they're so inconsistent in layout.  You not only get keys in weird spots, but also awkward mixed profiles.

[Fragil1ty]

keycap compatibility+shoving in a dedicated arrow cluster usually puts other keycaps in bad positions (tilde, etc.)
also imo an extra row+column looks ugly

Agreed.  75% boards are just awkward and tough to get cap sets for since they're so inconsistent in layout.  You not only get keys in weird spots, but also awkward mixed profiles.

Okay then, answer me this.

Would you rather have a keyboard that you don't like, for example a 75% board with your favourite switches or would you rather use a keyboard that you do like, maybe your favourite 60% or TKL board with switches you do NOT like, e.g. Kailh switches or w/e?

[nubbinator]

That's kind of a ridiculous straw man.  If I didn't like.the switch or layout, I wouldn't buy either.  If I had no choice, I'd get the one with the superior layout (60% for me) and swap in switches I like.

[flaming_june]

Yup.  Would love to get a 75% but tkl is the only option it seems.  Hopefully WASD come out with something as well, in the future.

I don't think 75% gets enough attention either!! While I love full size, I much prefer 75% over 60%.

I feel as if over the past year or so, the production for 75% has extremely diminished. It's literally impossible for you to get a KC 84 /w cherry switches now.

If you want to try and get a white Noppoo choc mini, it's hard to get that for under $400 (lol) and further more, it seems that the only switches that the Noppoo stocks is red now, it just seems like they're been phased out to me, maybe they're not making enough money or something, who knows.

Not making enough money seems to be the most likely reason.

[ComradeSniper]

keycap compatibility+shoving in a dedicated arrow cluster usually puts other keycaps in bad positions (tilde, etc.)
also imo an extra row+column looks ugly

Agreed.  75% boards are just awkward and tough to get cap sets for since they're so inconsistent in layout.  You not only get keys in weird spots, but also awkward mixed profiles.

Okay then, answer me this.

Would you rather have a keyboard that you don't like, for example a 75% board with your favourite switches or would you rather use a keyboard that you do like, maybe your favourite 60% or TKL board with switches you do NOT like, e.g. Kailh switches or w/e?

This seems like an incredibly pointless question.

I really don't mind the layout of 75% keyboards but the lack of keycap compatibility makes them a total no-go for me. That being said, despite the lack of extra keys I'd take an HHKB layout 60% over a 75% board any day.

[Smasher816]

also imo an extra row+column looks ugly

Agreed. If I want something small I use a 60% (and get by with the fn key), if I want something with all dedicated - a TKL. I find 75%'s are in a little bit of an awkward place in the middle. I don't know why but I really don't like the look of the extra row of keys to the right of backspace/enter/etc - there is something off putting about it. It looks more like a jumbled mess of keys then a clean, small board.

Then again at first I thought a TKL looked strange and wanted to get a fullsized wasd. But now I don't feel that way anymore. Maybe the look would grow on me with time.

[stakiman]

I am used to having F1 directly touching ESC and only 75% keyboards offer that. And the game I play (SC2) requires me to use the F keys, so ... 75% board it is for me ^^ It is how I got used to a mech keyboard and I don't think 60% boards offer anything better. They are just stripped off of all the useful things, even for everyday usage.

I am extremely sad that there are no new/other/different 75% boards than the ones we know. Recently got another regular Noppoo, even though I wanted a pimped-out 75% board. Of course there is no such thing ... sadly. So compromise modding for usefullnes + compactness ..

[Fragil1ty]

keycap compatibility+shoving in a dedicated arrow cluster usually puts other keycaps in bad positions (tilde, etc.)
also imo an extra row+column looks ugly

Agreed.  75% boards are just awkward and tough to get cap sets for since they're so inconsistent in layout.  You not only get keys in weird spots, but also awkward mixed profiles.

Okay then, answer me this.

Would you rather have a keyboard that you don't like, for example a 75% board with your favourite switches or would you rather use a keyboard that you do like, maybe your favourite 60% or TKL board with switches you do NOT like, e.g. Kailh switches or w/e?

This seems like an incredibly pointless question.

I really don't mind the layout of 75% keyboards but the lack of keycap compatibility makes them a total no-go for me. That being said, despite the lack of extra keys I'd take an HHKB layout 60% over a 75% board any day.

Oh it's just because at the moment, I have 2 x razer keyboards (orange switches) I'm currently selling one of them and was wondering whether I should keep using my (breaking noppoo choc mini) or use the crappy Kailh switch keyboard until I decide what I really want.


._.

[ComradeSniper]

keycap compatibility+shoving in a dedicated arrow cluster usually puts other keycaps in bad positions (tilde, etc.)
also imo an extra row+column looks ugly

Agreed.  75% boards are just awkward and tough to get cap sets for since they're so inconsistent in layout.  You not only get keys in weird spots, but also awkward mixed profiles.

Okay then, answer me this.

Would you rather have a keyboard that you don't like, for example a 75% board with your favourite switches or would you rather use a keyboard that you do like, maybe your favourite 60% or TKL board with switches you do NOT like, e.g. Kailh switches or w/e?

This seems like an incredibly pointless question.

I really don't mind the layout of 75% keyboards but the lack of keycap compatibility makes them a total no-go for me. That being said, despite the lack of extra keys I'd take an HHKB layout 60% over a 75% board any day.

Oh it's just because at the moment, I have 2 x razer keyboards (orange switches) I'm currently selling one of them and was wondering whether I should keep using my (breaking noppoo choc mini) or use the crappy Kailh switch keyboard until I decide what I really want.


._.

Shouldn't have sold the HHKB, bro 

[Roibhilin]

if someone makes a 75% that has standard mods and doesn't look ugly i will buy it

[SpAmRaY]

if someone makes a 75% that has standard mods and doesn't look ugly i will buy it

[Fragil1ty]

if someone makes a 75% that has standard mods and doesn't look ugly i will buy it

(Attachment Link)

Is that just a modded choc mini?

[SpAmRaY]

if someone makes a 75% that has standard mods and doesn't look ugly i will buy it

(Attachment Link)

Is that just a modded choc mini?

[Fragil1ty]

if someone makes a 75% that has standard mods and doesn't look ugly i will buy it

(Attachment Link)

Is that just a modded choc mini?

(Attachment Link)

It looks so similar!


Looks gorgeous though either way.

[SpAmRaY]

http://winkeyless.kr/159 it's another mx-mini

[rainb1ood]

That board looks so nice. I'm guessing its not available to buy one anymore?

[Hypersphere]

There is some controversy about what constitutes a 75% board, perhaps because of inconsistency in layouts among boards that might qualify for this form factor.

I have a KC84 white with the PBT caps that feel like pumice stone. It is fun to type on, but the layout makes it difficult to outfit in a consistent way with new keycaps.

I tend to agree also about the aesthetics of 75% boards. The aspect ratio is not pleasing. To my eye, a 60% or a TKL board have more attractive shapes.

OTOH, I have a SIIG Minitouch (Monterey switches!) that looks rather nice (and is nice to type on). It is unfortunate that this model with its excellent switches is no longer being produced.

I am not sure what category the Matias Mini Tactile Pro or Mini Quiet Pro would fit, and I do not particularly like the appearance of these boards, but the Mini Tactile Pro in particular provides an excellent typing experience, and the layout is quite handy and relatively compact. And these boards are still available, brand new.

[Grim Fandango]

I have to agree. I really enjoy the layout of something like the Matias Pro mini. While 60% keyboards look great they are not as easy to use for me. They always compromise something for which I prefer to have a dedicated key. I mainly like the for aesthetics rather than functionality.

75% are nice because they maintain that kind of sleek, centered look without significantly changing the layout of the keyboard or putting commonly used keys in an FN layer.

[twiddle]

http://winkeyless.kr/159 it's another mx-mini

Any chance somebody can confirm if this is the U or W version? Hard to find info in English and I'd like to know if this is the one offered in Sprit's or Tinnie's GBs.

[Roibhilin]

if someone makes a 75% that has standard mods and doesn't look ugly i will buy it

(Attachment Link)

why aren't the function keys staggered :v

[yuiop]

http://winkeyless.kr/159 it's another mx-mini

Any chance somebody can confirm if this is the U or W version? Hard to find info in English and I'd like to know if this is the one offered in Sprit's or Tinnie's GBs.

It's the new B series PCB (B.87, B.face, B.mini and etc) that has spots for RGB leds underneath.

[CPTBadAss]

My latest 75%

[nubbinator]

Show Image

My latest 75%

The one true mechanical rubber dome.  Toprites beware lest the awesomeness render your boards obsolete.

[GL1TCH3D]

I have a 60% and seriously wish I had gone 75% most of the time =S

[Oobly]

1. Keycap compatibility. Especially those with weird size spacebars or unique sized keys like Esc (Choc Mini and Pure Pro). IMPOSSIBLE to replace all the caps on those. The Keycool 84 is better, standard size spacebar, Esc, etc, but the edit keys are weird profiles, so you have to either settle for wrong legends and right profile or right legends and wrong profile. Or use a uniform profile set like SA all row 3 or DSA.
2. Looks. I think they look messy compared to 60% and cramped compared to TKL.
3. Awkward position / size of important keys like right Shift, Fn, Alt Gr (for those of us who use other languages), etc.

So I use a 60% despite the slight awkwardness of not having arrow keys on the default layer. The Leopold FC660 layout is WAY better than 75% and solves this problem, but it has a sucky Fn layer, whereas the Fn layer of my KBT Pure 60% is great.

P.S. - that MX-Mini is the same layout as the Keycool 84, just with a nicer / different case style. Still NOT standard mods, they're 1x size on the right and there are only 3 instead of 4....

[davkol]

Nearly every laptop keyboard is basically 75% or 90%.

Why it isn't more popular? Because every 75% keyboard is different. People are ridiculously picky about details like size&shape of the Enter/Shift/Backspace key or shape of the nav cluster (e.g., complaints about two-row Delete on some MS/Logitech boards)… but there are very few (if any) 75% keyboards w/ Cherry MX in ISO to say the very least. And then the form over function attitude of enthusiasts, leading to path dependency in the keycap market.

Otherwise, 75% is the superior layout: it has most keys of a tenkeyless and sometimes even an embedded tenkey, thus maintains compatibility with existing software, but reduces the distance to (right-handed) pointing devices at the same time.

BTW keyboards like TypeMatrix or TECK are technically 75% as well.

[Fragil1ty]

It seems to me that the only reason 60% is more popular is because of the fact that you can more easily replace keys, I mean, I cannot use 60% boards because of the lack of keys, e.g. no f1 row, no arrow keys, etc.


Most of the 60% boards that I've looked at/used, they have those functions but with fn + x.


But I guess at the end of the day, it's just what the consumer wants, some of us want tkl boards, some of us 60% and some of us 75%, I just hope that the 75% board market does not get phased out and becomes non-existent ;_;

[Hypersphere]

It seems to me that the only reason 60% is more popular is because of the fact that you can more easily replace keys, I mean, I cannot use 60% boards because of the lack of keys, e.g. no f1 row, no arrow keys, etc.


Most of the 60% boards that I've looked at/used, they have those functions but with fn + x.


But I guess at the end of the day, it's just what the consumer wants, some of us want tkl boards, some of us 60% and some of us 75%, I just hope that the 75% board market does not get phased out and becomes non-existent ;_;

Good points. One of the most popular keyboards among enthusiasts is the Poker II. People like the 60% form factor, but a big reason for the Poker's success is that it has a completely standard layout, so that most keycap sets will fit it. There are also many aluminum cases available for the Poker II.

Another popular 60% board is the HHKB Pro 2. There are fewer key sets available for it, but at least you can get full sets printed or unprinted in black or white/gray, and the caps are also interchangeable with Realforce boards. The real selling points for the HHKB are its form factor/design/styling/symmetry and intuitive/efficient layout.

I like the layout of the keyboard on my Macbook Air -- this would be a good layout for a 75% board. The main difficulty would be switches and caps for the half-height F-keys and arrow keys.

[Quardah]

Well the thing is, pretty much all 75% are unstandardized, they all look different and not with the same keys taken appart, so it's hard to put them all into the same category.

On the other hand check out the 60%, they pretty much all look the same and and have "standardized" shapes, sizes and features. Any 60% case would fit on any 60% labelled keyboard as far as i know, but i don't think that's the case for 75%.

Also i don't see why get 75%; if you want to go smaller than Full size, go TKL. Smaller? go 60%. That also means you are ready to have some less-used keys bound under the function layer. 60% is enough to cover all the missing keys and also have aditionnal functions.

Also removing the seventeenkeypad means you go from 104 to 87 (on ANSI) means it's an 83%-ish keyboards. What else do you remove? The terminal cluster, now you're about 75%. But i still don't see why in that case where you start trimming keys, you are not doing for good and going full 60%.

Or 40% for hardcores.

[Mooby]

75% boards are either **** quality or korean. I won't pay for the first and I cant pay for the latter. Otherwise I would get one for gaming. Good positioning of the F-row.

[CPTBadAss]

75% boards are either **** quality or korean.

Lol not true at all. Siig Minitouch/Monterey K110 is Taiwanese. The TG3 BL82 I believe was made in Wisconsin. Both are nice quality and you can still get a hold of them. I own both.

[Mooby]

75% boards are either **** quality or korean.

Lol not true at all. Siig Minitouch/Monterey K110 is Taiwanese. The TG3 BL82 I believe was made in Wisconsin. Both are nice quality and you can still get a hold of them. I own both.

That one actually doesn't look bad. I'll try to get some more info on this.

[Hypersphere]

Yep, I can vouch for the Made in Taiwan origin of my SIIG Mintouch Monterey switch keyboard. And to my eye, it is one of the more attractive keyboards of any kind, not only the 75% category. It is unfortunate that this version of the Minitouch is no longer in production, but you can still find them occasionally on eBay.

[davkol]

Also i don't see why get 75%; if you want to go smaller than Full size, go TKL. Smaller? go 60%. That also means you are ready to have some less-used keys bound under the function layer. 60% is enough to cover all the missing keys and also have aditionnal functions.

Comparing an ordinary tenkeyless keyboard and a typical 75% keyboard (like Noppoo Choc Mini, Keycool 84, Cherry G84-4100):

• The tenkeyless is about 7 cm wider, which means I have to reach extra 7 cm for the mouse.
• The tenkeyless has an extra/bigger gap between the number row and function keys.
• The 75% lacks only about 3 dedicated keys of the tenkeyless (usually some of the following: Menu, Insert, right Super/Win, F11&F12, ScrollLock/Pause/PrintScreen)… I admit the design could be a bit better in most cases.

Personally, I don't see the point of using a tenkeyless keyboard other than¹ aftermarket keycaps (niche). The same is actually the case with 60% keyboards, because they are only 2 cm smaller (both narrower and shorter), but at the cost of all function keys, Escape/tilde, arrows, nav cluster and sometimes AltGr.

It's a matter of form over function or the other way around.

¹ assuming the user doen't use the gaps for orientation on the keyboard

[Q-ship]

Basically it's because about 99.9% of the people on earth don't even know that mechanical keyboards exist, and are only aware of the singularly produced "full size" rubber dome boards that come with the computer.

Laptops all come with some form of "near" 75% board, but are often crowded due to space limitations.

Mechanical 75% boards are also crowded so that they can share the 60% case size (in most cases) for production reasons.

In a perfect world, a standardized layout & slighly wider width for a 75% to 80% board would soon become the norm, with "full size" boards morphing into a combo of TKL w/num pad.

What I don't understand is how the 60% boards became the norm for gaming as they have far to many keys for "Just" gaming, yet can't be used as a conventional keyboard .... Try typing a report, resume. or spreadsheet on a 60% board.

Though I personally don't care about appearance, I can understand how the 60% boards have become the predominant alternative size, given the ultra narrow market that they supply.

In any event, I can do anything with my old Race 75%, I have learned to touch type and program on it even though I would love to change things about it's layout if I could.

I'm just glad for the ones that do exist, but wish each model would come out for a reasonable period of time before they totaly disappear. --- It's frustrating to learn of a new/improved 75% +- board only to discover they are sold out, and never come back again "unless in a cheapend, more blinged out version".

[Smasher816]

Try typing a report, resume. or spreadsheet on a 60% board.

I don't see the issue....

Usually if people complain about 60%'s it is because they are missing the function keys for gaming - but that is not applicable to most office programs. When typing you don't really need the arrow keys either since it is usually fairly linear - just backspace for errors, and enter for paragraphs.

[Quardah]

Try typing a report, resume. or spreadsheet on a 60% board.

I don't see the issue....

Usually if people complain about 60%'s it is because they are missing the function keys for gaming - but that is not applicable to most office programs. When typing you don't really need the arrow keys either since it is usually fairly linear - just backspace for errors, and enter for paragraphs.

Yeah i totally get you dude, i've been doing school work / office work using my 60%. It's not crippling, everything you ever had is STILL under function layer and guess what, practice makes perfect, that means you adapt to the function layer being omnipresent on a 60% board.

It's awesome really.

ANSWER TO DAVKOL :

For Reference, 75% layout here

I can simply tell you that going TKL means you want to remove the numpad because you are not using it. That is all what it means and i personnaly would rather go for a TKL instead of a 75% for the sole reason that is presents the same functionalities but the TKL board doesn't look completly deformed. Removing the usual spacing in between keys or compressing them together may be functionnal but it simply looks weird and it's totally out of standard.

I understand the optimality or those 75% keyboards but you gotta agree they look a little silly...


Moar readings everyone here : http://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/75-t8640.html

lol they started a thread pretty much the same time as us

[davkol]

Form over function, like I wrote.

[JPG]

Form over function, like I wrote.

I am not sure it's necessarily more functional when the keys are all grouped together. What I mean is that I can reach every key from a 60% layout without lifting my hands (or mostly) and even then, probably because I am bad at it, I have a harder time getting the memory for the number row (also probably because I don't use them much).


Then, when I have to reach for the arrow keys for example, I need to lift my hands. If I lift my hands, the small additional distance is probably irrelevant and could even be beneficial for accuracy. It probably just doesn't change much.


On the contrary, since using my model F with the Soarer converter, I started using an additional layer for the navigation. I use the caps lock key as a function key and I map arrows, home/end and page up/down on the keys where my right hand stands (ijkl cluster and around). I find that THIS is a real increase in efficiency when you get used to it. I while I consider myself not a very good typist and probably a slow learner of this kind of muscle memory, I had really no problem learning this layer since it's very intuitive to use and you don't have to lift your hand to reach it. I am not pretending that it's a better use of layers, but an example of how it can really improve the typing experience. I also like the fact that even if I have this layer, I also have the same keys readily available if I am in a position where my both hands are not on the keyboard since i need to use the mouse quite a lot recently (SQL SSIS tools are not the friend of the keyboard much).


So I think that 75% is more about size factor than efficiency factor compared to a TKL. I think it's a good design, but I don't think it's really an improvement over a TKL. It's more a matter of preference at that point. And since one is way more standard that the other due to historical reasons, it's sure that it's more appealing for companies to produce a standard layout unless they want to distinct themselves from the competition.


Just my 2 cents.

[davkol]

I use specifically my choc mini for games like SC or WC3 with Caps Lock and Control swapped, because F keys are much easier to reach. The closer Esc helps as well (see the vi Esc key syndrome).

The extra 7 cm to the mouse are actually one of the reasons, why I abandoned Kinesis Advantage (about the same width as tenkeyless).

I've looked for a 60% keyboard before, but the deal breaker has always been the lack of AltGraph (especially on Poker X) or inconsistent placement of the key (e.g., Pure). Remapping obviously messes with the muscle memory, but is it good for the given layout in the first place? I don't think so. That's why I think typematrix or TECK are a step in the right direction.

[Matt3o]

I like 65% (basically a poker + arrow cluster)

Most of my customs are like that.

The problem with 75% imho is that you have too many keys in a tiny-weeny space making touch typing a tad more difficult. Maybe it's just a matter of getting used to it though

[engicoder]

This is an odd 75% layout I have been pondering....its wide left and adds a row to the bottom. I need to mock it up some time to see how annoying the extra bottom row is.



It uses mostly standard size caps, with the exception of right shift, bit if you can ditch the tilde key, you could use all regular caps.
Edit: Control is not standard as well, but could use Caps Lock and a sticker ;-)

[katushkin]

KC84 is Chinese FWIW.

I love the layout. I really struggle without the nav keys, and when I was using my V60 at I52, it was so hard to do thing without the nav cluster, let alone the arrow keys. My KC is still one of my favourite boards and it makes me sad that people now discount them due to the Kalih switches. I think my next purchase is going to be a KC board with Kalihs, but I have a numpad coming in September so I will reserve my judgement for then.

As for the keycaps, this is my only bugbear. With backlighting, it makes it more or less impossible to find sets. If someone was to setup a GB for 75% sets I would love them forever...

[RED-404]

I have to move my hands less with a 60%, with a 75% I have to move away from the home row for some of the F keys and end up looking.

[genkidama]

Can't you emulate the F1 row with a FN layer?
My first mech was a full sized and I am loving it and after it I wanted the next mech to be a 75%. But after talking with BlueBär about it and considering I wanted a pretty portable and leightweight board to carry with me we talked about what keys I need and it is pretty possible to make it work on a 60%. I still got my arrow keys and some of the function keys like del, home, end, page up/down and the F1 row you can use an FN layer. Mostly I want to use the right side of the shift area for the arrow keys and an FN layer for the function keys and above the ISO enter there will be del and backspace. No special key size, everything standard so you can still swap keycaps easily.
So this is my reason for backing down of getting a 75%. Maybe some others think so as well, that they dont need a F1 row and/or arrow keys as they somehow use the mouse for it?!

[AKmalamute]

Yes, you can put everything on a function layer but at some point you want the keys on the keyboard, instead. A 75% gets you everything that isn't the ten-key with its own dedicated key, and the ten-key keys are on the standard keyboard anyway so its about reducing duplication without sacrifice.

For myself I never use the function keys except a few times a month, so sure, 60% boards are fine -- except I really want dedicated arrows so I find myself drawn to the FC660M layout -- A 75% with the function keys snipped, if you will.

Oh! for anybody that didn't see it, the last 39 of Race-in-Blues are for sale in MD right now. $115+shipping I  think. I have more keyboards than computers right now so I won't be getting one but they are tempting.

[Smasher816]

Some food for thought. Would people use a board with separate buttons for 'a'  and 'A' (think IBM 122 key but even more insane)? That way you have every key accessible without the pesky "Shift" layer.

I mean it's really not that different. What is the difference between pressing shift and 'a' for 'A', and pressing 'Fn' and '1' for 'F1'? Both involve holding a key and pressing another. Yet one people do countless times a day, while the other many shy away from because it is "too difficult/inefficient". Just something to think about...

[engicoder]

Can't you emulate the F1 row with a FN layer?

One problem with have FN mapped keys instead of physical keys are the keyboard shortcuts that are used in IDEs such as Eclipse or Visual Studio as well as many other development and modeling tools. It is common to have 3 key combinations. Suppose you want CTRL + SHIFT + F1...if F1 is mapped to a FN layer, suddenly you have FN + CTRL + SHIFT + F1. The 3 key combo becomes an very unwieldy 4 key combo. Furthermore, you have to be careful of how the effect the FN layer mapping has on the modifiers. These 3 key shortcuts especially common with the nav cluster keys such as HOME, END, PGUP, PGDN as well as the arrow keys.

[Sent]

I like 65% (basically a poker + arrow cluster)

Matt knows where it's at.  Poker + arrow cluster is bliss.  We need more 65% boards for sure.

[RED-404]

Or ditch the dedicated arrow cluster and just do this on a Poker II

I like having the Caps Lock as my Fn Key and wanted the WIN key to remain a WIN key. If you just do the dip switches it becomes Caps Lock.
But if you use the PN layer then you can program it. Here is the process;

Set Dip Switches all Off.
Press Fn-Ctrl            :enter programming mode
Press Caps Lock       :This is the key you will be programming
Press WIN Key         :This is what we want the previous key to do
Press Pn
Press Fn-Ctrl            :Exit programming mode
Turn On dip switches 1 & 3
Press Fn + Shift        :Lock Pn Mode

You should now have Fn on Caps Lock key and Win on the original Win key location.

[genkidama]

Some food for thought. Would people use a board with separate buttons for 'a'  and 'A' (think IBM 122 key but even more insane)? That way you have every key accessible without the pesky "Shift" layer.

I mean it's really not that different. What is the difference between pressing shift and 'a' for 'A', and pressing 'Fn' and '1' for 'F1'? Both involve holding a key and pressing another. Yet one people do countless times a day, while the other many shy away from because it is "too difficult/inefficient". Just something to think about...

I also see it that way, actually it is very similar to writing big letters. As I'm from Germany I need to use this much more than writing in English ^^ so I'm kinda used to especially because many special characters like ' " also need the Shift combination to get to them unlike a US layout I guess.

Can't you emulate the F1 row with a FN layer?

One problem with have FN mapped keys instead of physical keys are the keyboard shortcuts that are used in IDEs such as Eclipse or Visual Studio as well as many other development and modeling tools. It is common to have 3 key combinations. Suppose you want CTRL + SHIFT + F1...if F1 is mapped to a FN layer, suddenly you have FN + CTRL + SHIFT + F1. The 3 key combo becomes an very unwieldy 4 key combo. Furthermore, you have to be careful of how the effect the FN layer mapping has on the modifiers. These 3 key shortcuts especially common with the nav cluster keys such as HOME, END, PGUP, PGDN as well as the arrow keys.

If the FN key is on the right, let's say underneath the Enter and right to the right shift than it isn't such a hassle to use the 4 key combo as the left hand still can easily reach CTRL + SHIFT + 1 (for F1). Or if the number row isn't necessary just make a FN layer that stays once you put it on and changes the number row to F1 - F10 and everything else stays the same? I don't know if it is called PN layer instead

[davkol]

Some food for thought. Would people use a board with separate buttons for 'a'  and 'A' (think IBM 122 key but even more insane)? That way you have every key accessible without the pesky "Shift" layer.

I mean it's really not that different. What is the difference between pressing shift and 'a' for 'A', and pressing 'Fn' and '1' for 'F1'? Both involve holding a key and pressing another. Yet one people do countless times a day, while the other many shy away from because it is "too difficult/inefficient". Just something to think about...

Some early typewriters like Calligraph actually were like that.

It's a fallacious argument though, because the primary use of alphanumeric keys is typing, while the extra function keys are used for editing or interaction with the UI by current software.

Chording may increase efficiency in some ways, BUT at the cost of speed for some people, maybe unless the modifiers are sticky… modality is rarely user-friendly though; even worse, ergonomics of such solution heavily depends on key placement, which is downright awful on nearly all "normal" keyboards nowadays.

[jacobolus]

This is an odd 75% layout I have been pondering....its wide left and adds a row to the bottom. I need to mock it up some time to see how annoying the extra bottom row is.

Show Image

Here was my similar concept:

(Though personally I suspect swapping ctrl and shift might work better. Thumb shift is a really nice feature.)

[davkol]

This is an odd 75% layout I have been pondering....its wide left and adds a row to the bottom. I need to mock it up some time to see how annoying the extra bottom row is.

Show Image

Here was my similar concept:

Show Image

(Though personally I suspect swapping ctrl and shift might work better. Thumb shift is a really nice feature.)

Now that's an interesting layout! The two controls next to each other look a bit weird, but I do see the point.

[jacobolus]

Now that's an interesting layout! The two controls next to each other look a bit weird, but I do see the point.

I’d combine them into one key, but I think it’s more useful in a programmable keyboard to let someone remap them to two separate things if they want.

[davkol]

…or split keyboard!

A bit off-topic, but anyway: The training effect on typing on two alternative keyboards (M. ***arasanu et al.)

Conclusions: Due to the fact that the increase in performance following the training period did not cause higher
muscle activity, ergonomic keyboards may constitute a solution for reducing typing related musculoskeletal problems.

One of the tested keyboard was the Goldtouch Adjustable (a 75% keyboard, thus back on-topic!).

[pseudonym]

if someone makes a 75% that has standard mods and doesn't look ugly i will buy it

(Attachment Link)

Could you tell me what keyboard this is? Maybe i don't get the joke and it's a modded Noppoo choc mini?

Thanks mate.

[SpAmRaY]

if someone makes a 75% that has standard mods and doesn't look ugly i will buy it

(Attachment Link)

Could you tell me what keyboard this is? Maybe i don't get the joke and it's a modded Noppoo choc mini?

Thanks mate.

Its a few posts below. Its a new b.mini

[davkol]

…

[Quardah]

if someone makes a 75% that has standard mods and doesn't look ugly i will buy it

(Attachment Link)

Could you tell me what keyboard this is? Maybe i don't get the joke and it's a modded Noppoo choc mini?

Thanks mate.

Its a few posts below. Its a new b.mini

Yea that's a pretty clean board. Is it all custom built?

It doesn't seem "bloated" if i'm allowed to use this expression. The right first-row modifiers, are they 1x or 1.25x?


Also to everyone keep posting this thread it's relevant and i love it thanks.