Alps Appreciation Thread

[chyros]

Anyone know how SKCM Blue tactility compares to SKCM Brown? From what I understand SKCM Brown are also heavier? I'm quite satisfied with SKCM Blue as far as weight and tactility goes, I don't think I would want more; ie the BKE Light Topre domes were incredibly fatiguing after even just few hours of use.

I have an opportunity to get an SKCM Brown board for a decent price, but some things have me a bit apprehensive. At the very least may be worth buying to part out the switches.

They are very different, you'll have to try them yourself... they don't feel like any other switch. Fascinating things, they are. Tactility is drawn out over the course of the travel, so there's no "event", it is just in the feel of the switch itself. Hard to explain.

This sounds like SKCM Orange to me- I've always felt like Oranges are a "heavy linear", I know that isn't quite accurate thing to say, but the bump is so long and drawn out with very little resistance at the very top. Does that sound like Browns (but they'd be heavier)? Not that any of this is meant as a bad thing, I really like Oranges.

You've pretty much convinced me to give it a go 

No, browns are not like oranges. Blue are more like oranges than browns are.

Browns are really quite tactile, but in a rounded way, like Topre, not in a sharpish way that SKCM orange and blue are (look up the force curves if you're curious). They are also really quite stiff because the peak force is held for so long.

If you don't want something stiffer than SKCM blue, I wouldn't recommend brown.

[mode]

Anyone know how SKCM Blue tactility compares to SKCM Brown? From what I understand SKCM Brown are also heavier? I'm quite satisfied with SKCM Blue as far as weight and tactility goes, I don't think I would want more; ie the BKE Light Topre domes were incredibly fatiguing after even just few hours of use.

I have an opportunity to get an SKCM Brown board for a decent price, but some things have me a bit apprehensive. At the very least may be worth buying to part out the switches.

They are very different, you'll have to try them yourself... they don't feel like any other switch. Fascinating things, they are. Tactility is drawn out over the course of the travel, so there's no "event", it is just in the feel of the switch itself. Hard to explain.

This sounds like SKCM Orange to me- I've always felt like Oranges are a "heavy linear", I know that isn't quite accurate thing to say, but the bump is so long and drawn out with very little resistance at the very top. Does that sound like Browns (but they'd be heavier)? Not that any of this is meant as a bad thing, I really like Oranges.

You've pretty much convinced me to give it a go 

No, browns are not like oranges. Blue are more like oranges than browns are.

Browns are really quite tactile, but in a rounded way, like Topre, not in a sharpish way that SKCM orange and blue are (look up the force curves if you're curious). They are also really quite stiff because the peak force is held for so long.

If you don't want something stiffer than SKCM blue, I wouldn't recommend brown.

You’re right, and I’m glad I got that sgi case, it’s nice having the freedom of it already being butchered as I’d never break up a complete SGI but now I’m tempted to get hold of  some amber alps and make the most of that big chassis, make it the ultimate clickfoot.

[d.caminero]

IME, in a tray mounted build (without centered standoffs) I didn't notice any difference in feel in browns between an FR4 & alum. plate. However the FR4 plate does make the switches sound a bit more muted than on alum., for my that's a positive, not sure where your preference would lie.

Hey thanks for your input! In this case it'd be a top mount plate, in a The Ave keyboard (40%) so I guess they'd feel similar as well, but as you do I like it better muted. My main concern was about dampening the bottom out a bit. In my current boards, both SKCM Orange and SKCM Brown are a bit too harsh on the bottom out, specially if you use DSA keycaps on them. Changing to AEK keycaps worked wonders for that and improved the feel a lot.

Seeing that another user bought an SGI case, plate and pcb to make a build:

Does anyone here want an AEK or NEC 8801 chassis, pcb and plate to make another build? I do have one of each lying around that I'm reluctant to throw. Paying only shipping of course, although it would be from Spain.

[toniwonkanobi]

Hello all. Trying to source a 1.75U right shift keycap for use on a 65% AEK project (Lunar AEK). I see that the Apple Adjustable Keyboard has such a keycap, but am not sure if said keycap (which is meant for an Alps SKFS switch) will be compatible with an Alps SKCM switch, as found on the AEK/AEKII lineup?

Refer to the photos embedded. It's hard for me to tell if the AAP keycap is compatible with AEK/AEKII switches :/

Photo of the underside of an AAP keycap:



Photo of the underside of an AEKII keycap (whose switches were rotated 90° on the Function row, for some odd reason):

[nevin]

no, mounts are not the same. see comparison below. right shift from aekII & apple adjustable



i don't think any of the layouts for AEK I or II had 1.75 right shifts for skcl/m alps. i was thinking maybe the m0118 might, but that's only 1.25.
- the IBM 5140 had a 1.75 right shift, though profile will probably be different.
- tai-hao makes OEM profile alps caps, as well as signature plastics

[Applet]

Hello all. Trying to source a 1.75U right shift keycap for use on a 65% AEK project

M0116 and M0118 has a cmd-key that is 1,75 in the correct profile. I use it for my two 60% with AEK-keycaps. There is no shift-key that fits the specs as far as I know

[nevin]

thanks @Applet that's a good solution.

[mode]

I've acquired a new logo AT102 which I'll transplant the guts of into the SGI Granite case I got, that'll do Will post pics once everything arrives. I'm glad I got a new logo AT102, I'd not want to break up an old logo one, especially if it had salmons.

The AT102 plate is kinda rusty, so I'll definitely desolder it, swap in the cleaner SGI plate, and source some nicer SKCM switches, but I'm glad I can instantly make a complete board now with that case.

[mode]

The seller on ebay uk still appears to have more of them, she’s listed them as at102w, but they’re definitely the WKL at102.

I got mine for £30 and a friend did the same.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-Dell-PS-2-AT102W-Mechanical-Keyboard-GYUM90SK-Alps-SKCM-Black/223998398148?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D225119%26meid%3Daf75e6d360c944d0a1196f7aea9a1408%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D15%26mehot%3Dnone%26sd%3D223998398148%26itm%3D223998398148%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057%26brand%3DDell&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3Af4654e95-8e02-11ea-86f7-74dbd18019fc%7Cparentrq%3Adfaa01981710adaa6714c48cffb8d030%7Ciid%3A1

Message her and make an offer!


edit: looks like they're gone, she just has a filthy looking at102w left with bamboo black alps, she's edited the listing to show having swapped the photos out.

[mode]

My at102 arrived today, it has pine switches! It also has the extra weight in the back. The keycaps are super thin abs, but the lettering is nice and sharp, doesn’t look pad printed or lasered so I guess UV dye? None are worn at least.

[jannie2020]

Where i can buy acer kb 101-a?

i cant find it anywhere

[romevi]

Where i can buy acer kb 101-a?

i cant find it anywhere

Did you try your local Alps store?

[mode]

Where i can buy acer kb 101-a?

i cant find it anywhere

Did you try your local Alps store?

Helpful dude.

I've found the most successful way to get gold of something is to bookmark a search like so: https://old.reddit.com/r/mechmarket/search/?q=alps&sort=new&restrict_sr=on and just check on regular. That or find a mythical recycling centre in the real world.

[funkmon]

Same for ebay, too. Sometimes these old keyboards that didn't sell billions and billions of units like IBM are pretty hard to come by, and you're SOL. It's one of the reasons they often go for more than they're really worth, as opposed to some keyboards like the AT101 and the Model M, of which there are so many units, they sell for under what they're worth, IMO.

Of course none of that makes a lot of sense, but like, I mean, you get more keyboard for your $50 with an AT101 or Model M than you get for your $50 in other vintage keyboards you're looking for specifically.

What I do sometimes i just search for "keyboard" on ebay, and sort by used and hope to find a gem. It's how I got some pretty cool stuff for like $10, though I will say I never buy random Alps boards because the switches can go to **** quickly.

[mode]

I was skeptical pine blacks would be close to salmons, but after cleaning them up, they sure are!

Somehow the black sliders felt super frictional, just touching them with my fingers, but after a clean they're super smooth.

Still tossing up whether to linearise them or not, the tactile leaf tabs are pretty bent on a lot of them.

[envyy24]

Holy crap this this is burried deep lol.
Hey guys just get my hands on some very quality alps board. Thought the switch this time is much much better to me liking, i find it a tiny bit stiff. Im thinking of swapping the springs inside to st lighter. Has anyone tried something similar? I found the supplies for either 60cN or 65cN actuation force spring (made by the controversial spring maker but let just leave that aside for now ) and I wonder what should I chose  I intend to swap my blue which has 70g actuation force i believe.

[mode]

Holy crap this this is burried deep lol.
Hey guys just get my hands on some very quality alps board. Thought the switch this time is much much better to me liking, i find it a tiny bit stiff. Im thinking of swapping the springs inside to st lighter. Has anyone tried something similar? I found the supplies for either 60cN or 65cN actuation force spring (made by the controversial spring maker but let just leave that aside for now ) and I wonder what should I chose  I intend to swap my blue which has 70g actuation force i believe.

A significant amount of stiffness comes from the click leaf, SKCM blue springs are approximately 50cN, if you want to make them lighter consider 40cN or 45cN. I've been spring swapping some ambers with 45cN springs an they land around ~65g, which is pretty nice.

[envyy24]

A significant amount of stiffness comes from the click leaf, SKCM blue springs are approximately 50cN, if you want to make them lighter consider 40cN or 45cN. I've been spring swapping some ambers with 45cN springs an they land around ~65g, which is pretty nice.

Bois im sooo glad i posted this question before doing st stupid. I would pull my hair out trying to figure out why my alps is significantly stiffer then if not for you. Thanks very much and that is what im going to do. Cheers

[fohat.digs]

Where i can buy acer kb 101-a?

Put it on an ebay watch list and be patient. An extremely rare and desirable keyboard like that might take years to find.

[bibobim]

Bought a Zenith board a few weeks back for 40$ thinking about putting these green alps to my upcoming TKL custom but the build quality of this was just stunning so I repainted and ended up using it as my daily drive. What a great board! 
https://imgur.com/a/tUuC1Qy

[chyros]

Bought a Zenith board a few weeks back for 40$ thinking about putting these green alps to my upcoming TKL custom but the build quality of this was just stunning so I repainted and ended up using it as my daily drive. What a great board! 
https://imgur.com/a/tUuC1Qy

Awesome . Great choice, the Zenith chassis is very stronk .

[bibobim]

Thanks Thomas. Your video reviews have inspired me to appreciate vintage keyboard very much. Hopefully one day I can get my hands on those delicious blue and brown alps

[funkmon]

I picked up what is in one specific way an Alps Model M today.

No, not the Omnikey!

A Canon keyboard with Acer switches. I had heard bad things, but that they were highly tactile switches not wholly unlike Alps, so I've been thinking "well what's the downside?" and I Or Best Offered one on eBay thanks to the keen eyes here on Geekhack for $15.

I am typing this with it right now and it's fairly good, but you can tell it feels cheap. I just came from the Model F and before that a Matias. I will say that it feels similar to the Matias in the same way Cherry MX doesn't, but it's not at the Matias level. It feels like, if someone took Matias and then said "okay now give me the same effect for half price." That's what it feels like.

I'll say it's probably a good litmus test for someone trying vintage keyboard switches. If the guy likes an Acer switch board, then I think we can say it's safe for him to try to go for a white Alps or a Matias for when he's willing to spend extra money. Normally I suggest the AT101, which is a $40 board anymore, as it does have that Alps feel (which makes sense considering by whom it's made), but this I think is more of an easy go of it.

What do you guys think about that?

[turtlemine]

I recently got a fairly dirty M0115 with oranges, and tried ultrasonic cleaning and lubing with dry lube. I haven't seen much of an improvement, and I get that 'grittiness' when I press down really slowly.

That being said, how would you explain the smoothness of a NOS SKCM orange alps, and how would you compare it to the smoothness of more modern switches (jtk, zeal, kailh, zeal, etc.)?
I want to know how much smoother Alps switches in better condition can be, and it would really help if I can contextualize with the switches that I'm more experienced with.

[mode]

Good condition orange boards are fairly perfectly smooth, zero binding.

I straight up don’t think you should ultrasonic and lube 1st gen alps, I’ve tried it and it never works well. just spot clean as best you can. ultrasonicing the switch tops only can work ok, but stripping all trace of the factory lube makes the sliders worse and I’ve never found any lube brings them back.

light cruft is fine, but as soon as abrasive dirt gets in an alps board it’s ruined.

[uncleaner]

I recently got a fairly dirty M0115 with oranges, and tried ultrasonic cleaning and lubing with dry lube. I haven't seen much of an improvement, and I get that 'grittiness' when I press down really slowly.

That being said, how would you explain the smoothness of a NOS SKCM orange alps, and how would you compare it to the smoothness of more modern switches (jtk, zeal, kailh, zeal, etc.)?
I want to know how much smoother Alps switches in better condition can be, and it would really help if I can contextualize with the switches that I'm more experienced with.

NOS oranges are zeal v2 levels of smooth.
If you can't find good oranges though try salmon alps - they're very similar to oranges, just around 10g heavier and a little more tactile. In my experience even rough feeling ones that are starting to bind can feel almost NOS with cleaning and a heavy coat of dry lube. I've never heard of anyone getting good results lubing orange alps.

[chyros]

Got a board with 9/10 oranges in yesterday. Pretty confident that with a light clean I can make them 10/10 again. No sonicating or lubing or such rubbish, just open and brush the dust out of the nooks and crannies.

[mode]

Got a board with 9/10 oranges in yesterday. Pretty confident that with a light clean I can make them 10/10 again. No sonicating or lubing or such rubbish, just open and brush the dust out of the nooks and crannies.

Spoilers, but what did you get?

My most recent fav board has been an Azerty M0118 I swapped qwerty caps onto, it looked like total crap in the listing, but only had a lot of light dust, cleaned up real well Remapping the numpad to TKL with a toggle makes it pretty acceptable to daily drive.

[chyros]

Got a board with 9/10 oranges in yesterday. Pretty confident that with a light clean I can make them 10/10 again. No sonicating or lubing or such rubbish, just open and brush the dust out of the nooks and crannies.

Spoilers, but what did you get?

Just an M0116 .

[mode]

Got a board with 9/10 oranges in yesterday. Pretty confident that with a light clean I can make them 10/10 again. No sonicating or lubing or such rubbish, just open and brush the dust out of the nooks and crannies.

Spoilers, but what did you get?

Just an M0116 .

not too surprised, my m0116 is my cleanest SKCM orange board. I can just about cope with the wacky layout but I’ve not touched it since getting the M0118!


I’m still curious if ever there was a qwerty M0118, there is one in the wiki but the uk got the m0116, so which country is it from?




yuri came in today, pretty happy with it on this SKCM blue board.

[turtlemine]

I recently got a fairly dirty M0115 with oranges, and tried ultrasonic cleaning and lubing with dry lube. I haven't seen much of an improvement, and I get that 'grittiness' when I press down really slowly.

That being said, how would you explain the smoothness of a NOS SKCM orange alps, and how would you compare it to the smoothness of more modern switches (jtk, zeal, kailh, zeal, etc.)?
I want to know how much smoother Alps switches in better condition can be, and it would really help if I can contextualize with the switches that I'm more experienced with.

NOS oranges are zeal v2 levels of smooth.
If you can't find good oranges though try salmon alps - they're very similar to oranges, just around 10g heavier and a little more tactile. In my experience even rough feeling ones that are starting to bind can feel almost NOS with cleaning and a heavy coat of dry lube. I've never heard of anyone getting good results lubing orange alps.

Good condition orange boards are fairly perfectly smooth, zero binding.

I straight up don’t think you should ultrasonic and lube 1st gen alps, I’ve tried it and it never works well. just spot clean as best you can. ultrasonicing the switch tops only can work ok, but stripping all trace of the factory lube makes the sliders worse and I’ve never found any lube brings them back.

light cruft is fine, but as soon as abrasive dirt gets in an alps board it’s ruined.

Thanks for the suggestion. I might try the salmons a go first to see if I like the general feel of alps. I take it that if the oranges feel scratchy before and even after cleaning, it’s a no go?

Got a board with 9/10 oranges in yesterday. Pretty confident that with a light clean I can make them 10/10 again. No sonicating or lubing or such rubbish, just open and brush the dust out of the nooks and crannies.

Woahh where do you get your keyboards from? It seems like you have a time machine and you have the ability to yoink any keyboard in good condition judging from the amazing collection you have.

[mode]

patience is the key, just watch auctions and marketplaces and wait.

[toniwonkanobi]

Hello all. Trying to source a 1.75U right shift keycap for use on a 65% AEK project

M0116 and M0118 has a cmd-key that is 1,75 in the correct profile. I use it for my two 60% with AEK-keycaps. There is no shift-key that fits the specs as far as I know

no, mounts are not the same. see comparison below. right shift from aekII & apple adjustable
i don't think any of the layouts for AEK I or II had 1.75 right shifts for skcl/m alps. i was thinking maybe the m0118 might, but that's only 1.25.
- the IBM 5140 had a 1.75 right shift, though profile will probably be different.
- tai-hao makes OEM profile alps caps, as well as signature plastics

Apologies for not thanking you both earlier. For some reason, GH didn't send me an email notification on this "Notify" thread. Anyways, I ended up using the Command key from an M0116, and although the profile is not, like, perfect, it's pretty close. Yeah, the legending irks me (since I'm not using it as a command key!), but I can let go of the semantics

[mode]

I've got my DCS Yuri board working nicely now, took a while to figure out a stab wire that didn't mush out on the bottom.

Def worth the effort, I like this board very much, it's the first clicky board that I've really gotten along with.

[gnho]

Can anyone confirm this?

The two regular sources of Alps PCBs are XD60 from China and Alps 64 from Japan. Is there any source in CONUS? I'm thinking about replacing most of my MX boards with Alps but I'm not sure where I can find the PCB and plate for new builds.

Thanks!

[turtlemine]

Can anyone confirm this?

The two regular sources of Alps PCBs are XD60 from China and Alps 64 from Japan. Is there any source in CONUS? I'm thinking about replacing most of my MX boards with Alps but I'm not sure where I can find the PCB and plate for new builds.

Thanks!

There’s a guy selling bare alp64 pcb on eBay. You would have to buy and solder every component though. https://www.ebay.com/itm/143635832622

[pixelpusher]

This PCB ships from conUS

https://cannonkeys.com/collections/pcbs/products/an-c-60-pcb

[gnho]

There’s a guy selling bare alp64 pcb on eBay. You would have to buy and solder every component though. https://www.ebay.com/itm/143635832622

I will need a bit more than this but thank you!

[gnho]

This PCB ships from conUS

https://cannonkeys.com/collections/pcbs/products/an-c-60-pcb

I DID NOT KNOW IT SUPPORTS ALPS! Thank you so much! Is there a source for a plate as well?

[mode]

I DID NOT KNOW IT SUPPORTS ALPS! Thank you so much! Is there a source for a plate as well?

That depends on the case, it's generally easiest to just get your own plate fabricated though. Most plates I see for sale are too flexible and won't secure all switches in alignment well.

Figure out your layout, choose a case, then get a plate made for it, it's not too expensive.

[gnho]

That depends on the case, it's generally easiest to just get your own plate fabricated though. Most plates I see for sale are too flexible and won't secure all switches in alignment well.

Figure out your layout, choose a case, then get a plate made for it, it's not too expensive.

Thanks! Is there a vendor you use? Where can I find the design? I usually just go for the generic 60% with a tsangan layout but I'm open to any recommendation. I know Hasu sells plates but there's no shipping between US and JP in the foreseeable future...

[mode]

That depends on the case, it's generally easiest to just get your own plate fabricated though. Most plates I see for sale are too flexible and won't secure all switches in alignment well.

Figure out your layout, choose a case, then get a plate made for it, it's not too expensive.

Thanks! Is there a vendor you use? Where can I find the design? I usually just go for the generic 60% with a tsangan layout but I'm open to any recommendation. I know Hasu sells plates but there's no shipping between US and JP in the foreseeable future...

I use laserboost for fabrication and I've adapted existing plate CAD files to fit what I want using http://builder.swillkb.com and http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com I use QCAD to take the outputs from swillkb's plate builder and align them within a footprint of a standard plate for the case/pcb I'm using.

Edit: looks like built in settings will probably do what you want: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=84787.0

[mode]

I tried  a wacky thing today by building this switch from spare parts I have plus nexus tops. it actually feels 100% smooth and good.

the blue slider is from a shagged board, I soniced them which made them worse in alps housings, the bottom and plate is 1st gen tall, the leaf is an SKCM black leaf and the spring a 45g sprit.


I hated the nexus top housings with the sliders, they had squeeky binding, but feeling this if there ever was a group buy for replacement alps POM top housings I’d be all in. they work great even when the slider is from a completely ruined board.

may well assemble enough of them to evaluate feel properly some time. they’d always be suboptimal for keeping dirt out as the opening is wider than it should be for a cherry stem, but it’s an interesting experience nonetheless.

[nevin]

@gnho when hunting for alps compatible pcbs... check the footprint/pads on the pcb. there are a lot of alps compatible pcbs, they just are not heavily advertised as such.

believe most if not all of keeb.io's stuff is Alps/MX compatible. though they specialize more in split/ergo kits.

some others: XD64 (60%), XD87 (TKL), as well as many others

when looking, check the switch footprint on the pcb, if they look like this they are MX & Alps compatible. a good many PCBs support alps.
(Attachment Link)
photo: Keeb.io - Quefrency (split staggered 60-65%)

another example of alps/mx footprint

[gnho]

Thank you all! Yeah I should pay more attention to the photos from this point forward. It seems like the plates will be the most costly part, besides the switches. I looked into laserboost and it will run more than $60 to cut a plate... compared to <$20 from Hasu or XD64.

[nevin]

... if buying plates, make sure the listing specifies either alps or mx/alps compatible plate. the cutouts are different sizes.
refer to swill's plate builder for examples of the cutouts.
http://builder.swillkb.com/
http://builder-docs.swillkb.com/features/#switch-type

[ddrfraser1]

It’s even better looking naked

[funkmon]

Uhhhghghhh that's an incredibly looking board man. I have got to have one!

[ddrfraser1]

Uhhhghghhh that's an incredibly looking board man. I have got to have one!

Hopefully after doing some work on it it will feel as good as it looks 

[gnho]

I think I cracked the code of building a 60% ALPS during COVID-19...

PCB- https://cannonkeys.com/products/an-c-60-pcb (for split right shift)
Plate- Raven https://www.primekb.com/collections/keyboards/products/raven-sidewinder-switch-plate?variant=12440482742368
Stabilizers- Matias https://matias.store/products/stabilizer-and-hook-set?variant=21059316547

Do you think this will work?
Thanks!