Author Topic: T9-QWERTY: The Ultra Efficient Minimal Motion Keyboard Layout  (Read 7572 times)

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Offline shaaniqbal

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It was suggested by someone that I post a reference to it in this section so more people would get a chance to see it. I've come up with an idea that will allow people to type with barely any hand motion. If you've ever been interested by "ASETNIOP" or the DataHand keyboard this may also interest you. Check it out:

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=52967.msg1178985#msg1178985

Offline Folio

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Re: T9-QWERTY: The Ultra Efficient Minimal Motion Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1 on: Mon, 17 March 2014, 10:52:19 »
It was suggested by someone that I post a reference to it in this section so more people would get a chance to see it. I've come up with an idea that will allow people to type with barely any hand motion. If you've ever been interested by "ASETNIOP" or the DataHand keyboard this may also interest you. Check it out:

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=52967.msg1178985#msg1178985

The datahand.... I'm too late.

Offline shaaniqbal

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Re: T9-QWERTY: The Ultra Efficient Minimal Motion Keyboard Layout
« Reply #2 on: Mon, 17 March 2014, 14:03:16 »
Not sure what you mean there. You're too late because you already bought a DataHand?

Offline Folio

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Re: T9-QWERTY: The Ultra Efficient Minimal Motion Keyboard Layout
« Reply #3 on: Mon, 17 March 2014, 14:19:14 »
Not sure what you mean there. You're too late because you already bought a DataHand?

I didn't know what that was until you mentioned it above, so after I read into it for about 5 minutes, the sadness sunk in.

Offline shaaniqbal

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Re: T9-QWERTY: The Ultra Efficient Minimal Motion Keyboard Layout
« Reply #4 on: Mon, 17 March 2014, 14:58:20 »
Ah. Well I think they crop up now and again on eBay.

Offline Folio

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Re: T9-QWERTY: The Ultra Efficient Minimal Motion Keyboard Layout
« Reply #5 on: Mon, 17 March 2014, 15:00:09 »
Ah. Well I think they crop up now and again on eBay.

Yea but for $800 or more? No whai  :(

Offline shaaniqbal

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Re: T9-QWERTY: The Ultra Efficient Minimal Motion Keyboard Layout
« Reply #6 on: Mon, 17 March 2014, 15:04:18 »
Yep. But T9-QWERTY on the other hand is free :)

Offline Folio

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Re: T9-QWERTY: The Ultra Efficient Minimal Motion Keyboard Layout
« Reply #7 on: Mon, 17 March 2014, 15:06:48 »
Yep. But T9-QWERTY on the other hand is free :)

How long have you been typing with it? You're the sole author right? Sorry, I haven't read into it on your other thread. What's your max WPM with it?

Offline shaaniqbal

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Re: T9-QWERTY: The Ultra Efficient Minimal Motion Keyboard Layout
« Reply #8 on: Mon, 17 March 2014, 15:12:42 »
It's just an idea at the moment, in the early stages. So I don't use it myself at this time. I want to settle on a final layout before I start practising. You can try it out and see how it works though if you follow my instructions.

I am the sole author yes, although I've reused the ideas of previous inventions. It's basically a port of T9 to the PC.

Offline Folio

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Re: T9-QWERTY: The Ultra Efficient Minimal Motion Keyboard Layout
« Reply #9 on: Mon, 17 March 2014, 15:16:46 »
It's just an idea at the moment, in the early stages. So I don't use it myself at this time. I want to settle on a final layout before I start practising. You can try it out and see how it works though if you follow my instructions.

I am the sole author yes, although I've reused the ideas of previous inventions. It's basically a port of T9 to the PC.

I was a huge user of T9 on my old "dumb" phone. Very useful in that sense. I wonder how well it can translate into a keyboard for PC use.

Offline shaaniqbal

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Re: T9-QWERTY: The Ultra Efficient Minimal Motion Keyboard Layout
« Reply #10 on: Mon, 17 March 2014, 20:49:06 »
Yeah, I loved T9. That's why I created this. I think it could translate very well if we get a good development team.

As you might imagine it also has implications for one handed typing.

Offline Folio

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Re: T9-QWERTY: The Ultra Efficient Minimal Motion Keyboard Layout
« Reply #11 on: Mon, 17 March 2014, 22:15:18 »
Yeah, I loved T9. That's why I created this. I think it could translate very well if we get a good development team.

As you might imagine it also has implications for one handed typing.

Maybe extend it to numpad use for one hand?

Offline shaaniqbal

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Re: T9-QWERTY: The Ultra Efficient Minimal Motion Keyboard Layout
« Reply #12 on: Tue, 18 March 2014, 04:15:44 »
Yes, or just the left hand side of the letters (qwerasdfv). So the other hand can control the mouse.

Offline Folio

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Re: T9-QWERTY: The Ultra Efficient Minimal Motion Keyboard Layout
« Reply #13 on: Tue, 18 March 2014, 08:26:53 »
Yes, or just the left hand side of the letters (qwerasdfv). So the other hand can control the mouse.

You know what? That'd be more ideal than your original plan. One, because it's catering to a different type of crowd, such as the gaming community for example. As a gamer, I find it hard to take my hand off the mouse and trying to find "J" to type real quick in the middle of a fire fight. And two, it allows a more T9 feel. Like, what if we followed the original layout of a numpad for the left hand:

for general typing:
wer
sdf
xcv

for gaming:
qwe
asd
zxc

It'd definitely be easier to memorize and get used to, but then it kind of goes against your original plan with moving the hands less because this one would require moving from row to row. But still, I would use something like this because it's already inherent and I don't even have to use my right hand at all so that could make up for all the row hopping.
« Last Edit: Tue, 18 March 2014, 08:29:28 by Folio »

Offline shaaniqbal

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Re: T9-QWERTY: The Ultra Efficient Minimal Motion Keyboard Layout
« Reply #14 on: Tue, 18 March 2014, 09:46:40 »
Yes, absolutely. There is a program that mirrors QWERTY so it makes use of your muscle memory. I think you're right that it would potentially be very useful for gamers. See this thread for pkamb's software:

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=16771.0

What I'd like eventually is a program that the user can completely tailor to their own preferences. So you'd be able to have it just how you want over the three rows if you liked. I could make a demo of that which you'd need to use a text replacement program like Phrase Express to try. It would only work with a few words though because I have to do them manually. Do you have any coding skills? :)

Offline Folio

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Re: T9-QWERTY: The Ultra Efficient Minimal Motion Keyboard Layout
« Reply #15 on: Tue, 18 March 2014, 10:00:00 »
Yes, absolutely. There is a program that mirrors QWERTY so it makes use of your muscle memory. I think you're right that it would potentially be very useful for gamers. See this thread for pkamb's software:

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=16771.0

What I'd like eventually is a program that the user can completely tailor to their own preferences. So you'd be able to have it just how you want over the three rows if you liked. I could make a demo of that which you'd need to use a text replacement program like Phrase Express to try. It would only work with a few words though because I have to do them manually. Do you have any coding skills? :)

That sounds theeee most ideal. I just realized, if this T9 works, most people would find it most comfortable to keep it on qwe asd zxc because it feels the most natural even if you're not gaming because you wouldn't need the other hand anyway. I'd love a program like the one you just described to allow that. I do have some coding experience. What can I do to help? I'm gonna read that other thread right now.

Offline shaaniqbal

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Re: T9-QWERTY: The Ultra Efficient Minimal Motion Keyboard Layout
« Reply #16 on: Tue, 18 March 2014, 10:58:10 »
Ah, fantastic. Let's start from the ground up then. First I'd like a program that will take a layout you give it and produce a dictionary file with the corresponding words. Let's take the layout you suggested:

qwe
asd
zxc

So the program needs to know the mappings of all the letters of the alphabet. A standard T9 layout with 8 keys for the letters would map as:

q = punctuation, but we'll leave that out of the equation for now
w = a b c
e = d e f
a = g h i
s = j k l
d = m n o
z = p q r s
x = t u v
c = w x y z

If we wanted to type the word "good", that would map to "adde". If we wanted to type the word "amazing" that would map to "wdwcada". We want to produce a file that will have each word and what it maps to in separate columns. Each column can be separated by a tab like so:

good   adde
amazing   wdwcada

Make sense? So when you "feed" the program a list of words such as an English dictionary it will produce a long list like that.

This is example of such a list which follows the T9-QWERTY layout, which I had to write up manually: https://github.com/shaaniqbal/T9-QWERTY/blob/master/Sample%20dictionary.txt

Offline Folio

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Re: T9-QWERTY: The Ultra Efficient Minimal Motion Keyboard Layout
« Reply #17 on: Tue, 18 March 2014, 11:16:23 »
To the post above ^ (didn't want to quote too much). I understand what you're saying and am willing to make a comprehensive list based on the qwe asd zxc keys. That'd be a good start (I'll probably take your words from your list to start), but since this is T9, there's probably already a code set out there regarding T9 applications that can help predict words based on the keys the alphabet is assigned to with its own dictionary.

And maybe with some ingenuity, we could map that dictionary to our keys or any set of keys you want like how you said. This sounds like a really fun project and I can't wait to start processing how the code will take in and predict words. If we make our own code, then I'd be willing to put it out for open source improvement.

I'm gonna start from scratch, unless I find a good starting code. I'm not an avid coder btw, but I do like thinking through the processes, and will probably post a pseudo code at some point. I know VBA the best (odd I know, but I'm an analyst in Excel), so I'll probably code this in a GUI such as Visual Studio (don't hate me pls). It's a start and I've used the program, so shutup you Java/Python coders :) I mean, it's all the same concepts anyways, so it can be translated (I'm learning Python on the side too). I'm also working full time, so I probably won't have anything out too soon. I can't make any promises!!! pls keep that in mind Shaaniqbal. Any suggestions? comments? halp?

Offline shaaniqbal

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Re: T9-QWERTY: The Ultra Efficient Minimal Motion Keyboard Layout
« Reply #18 on: Tue, 18 March 2014, 17:15:07 »
I have very little coding experience so I can't offer much help on that side, Folio. I hope to start learning Python (or Visual Basic) soon too though. Hopefully more and more people will volunteer to help out with the project with time, but I'm ecstatic that you say you'll give it a try. Any headway we can make is great. Welcome to the T9-QWERTY development team. :)

If you can write up a pseudocode though I think that's a good start. I suppose I'd suggest documenting which bits of code would do what so in the future I or other coders can easily look through or expand on it. It's interesting you're an analyst in Excel as I did use that to help create the sample dictionary.

This is a text file with the list of words I used:

https://github.com/shaaniqbal/T9-QWERTY/blob/master/Sample%20wordlist.txt

I've also uploaded an ~80,000 word list.

The "predictive" element at the word level - which we'll call "word disambiguation" - comes from arranging conflict words (words that share the same sequence of keys such as "good" and "home") in order of their frequency within a corpus. Since you're most likely to use the higher frequency word it appears to the user as if it predicts the desired word. Large corpora such as the GloWbE, COCA or Google's N-grams can be searched on this site: http://corpus.byu.edu/corpora.asp
You need a special membership pass though to search over a certain amount in a day, which I don't have. There's also the British National Corpus which is freely searchable, and the Oxford English Corpus to which access can be applied for. The Sketch Engine may be another valuable resource.

This is the original paper on T9 which is what we want to emulate. I recommend skimming it:

https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/pdfs/US5818437.pdf

I emailed renowned algorithm professor Steven Skiena to ask for the code used in his
Minimum Motion Keyboard Demo
but he said he's lost it as it was such a long time ago. Some have suggested we could reuse the predictive components of an app like Dasher or voice recognition software. Peter Kamb gave me a couple of suggestions for prediction at the letter level which he used for his One Hand Keyboard.

Let's not worry too much about that stuff just yet. We'll come to all that later.

The system behind T9 of combining letters onto keys has exciting implications in other areas too. What if we got rid of the keyboard altogether and just used two mice? What about typing with game controllers or a Wiimote? There's a Windows program called GlovePIE which I think could let us do this. The Minuum creators are already tapping into this area with their "single dimension" keyboard.
« Last Edit: Wed, 19 March 2014, 17:01:39 by shaaniqbal »

Offline Folio

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Re: T9-QWERTY: The Ultra Efficient Minimal Motion Keyboard Layout
« Reply #19 on: Wed, 19 March 2014, 13:35:09 »
I don't know what's going on at the minimum keyboard's site, but I'm loving your ideas Shaan. So innovative. I'm looking more into all the links you posted. Such interesting stuff out there currently. Never knew. This is like a whole new world for me.

EDIT:

Just thought of a better idea for infamously crap typing on consoles with a controller: Have a circle of letters and punctuation. The cursor follows the left control stick's movements and the A or X button selects (Xbox or PS). That would be much better than current consoles' incredibly difficult to use full qwerty keyboard layout, going one letter at a time and all over the place, even as good as PS3's current T9 layout for some applications. Obviously, the other buttons can be used for delete and space and the like.

But enough about that, just a thought.
« Last Edit: Wed, 19 March 2014, 14:17:20 by Folio »

Offline shaaniqbal

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Re: T9-QWERTY: The Ultra Efficient Minimal Motion Keyboard Layout
« Reply #20 on: Wed, 19 March 2014, 17:12:15 »
The demo on Skiena's site is down now but it looked promising in theory. It's fascinating how we can manipulate the statistical properties of language to potentially make typing much simpler. We've barely scratched the surface of what's possible with computers. It really is a world of its own. We're no longer in the age of typewriters yet we continue to use an outdated typing system. Much of the progress in software input technology, besides speech recognition, has been on touchscreen devices while full-size PCs have been left in the dust - it's time we changed that.

I wasn't aware of the PS3's use of T9, that's interesting. I like your idea for game controllers. T9's inventors actually initially looked into how they could do text input in the most efficient way using 8 joystick or eye directions. This article talks about the history of T9 if you're interested:
http://www.validconcept.com/articles-t9.html

This post from the Minuum blog discusses their ideas on typing on controllers: http://minuum.com/who-forgot-the-smart-tv/

For dual-mice typing the two main left and right click buttons would give us four total buttons for typing. We could utilise a layout along the lines of Snapkeys' original four key layout, where the shape of the letter determines the groupings. Scroll right and scroll left could be space and backspace while scroll up and down could disambiguate. Gaming mice with extra thumb buttons could lend well to this.

These are ideas we'll want to explore in the future, for now let's cover the basic stuff. But please suggest anything you have in mind.
« Last Edit: Wed, 26 March 2014, 20:20:25 by shaaniqbal »

Offline Folio

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Re: T9-QWERTY: The Ultra Efficient Minimal Motion Keyboard Layout
« Reply #21 on: Thu, 20 March 2014, 10:34:32 »
Such fun innovation! I never knew about any of these. I downloaded Minuum yesterday and it's awesome! Definitely gonna buy the full version when my trial's up. Shaan, I love how you're so into all this! It's making me the same way. I want to start coding soon, and I'm gonna try to get some colleagues in on the action as well. Thanks for starting this revolution!

Offline shaaniqbal

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Re: T9-QWERTY: The Ultra Efficient Minimal Motion Keyboard Layout
« Reply #22 on: Thu, 20 March 2014, 13:47:10 »
That's great to hear. I'll also try to get some of my coder friends in on the project.

Minuum really is cool isn't it? I'd also suggest checking out 'Keymonk'. It's like Swype but with two thumbs. Then there's MessagEase which doesn't rely on prediction at all. There was also the keyboard that came with Samsung phones that combined T9 and Swype, called T9-Trace. And of course the now popular SwiftKey famous for its 'psychic' prediction. They're all quite revolutionary (or at least evolutionary) apps in their own right.  What we want to do is try to bring the same level of innovation to desktop computing.
« Last Edit: Fri, 21 March 2014, 15:42:59 by shaaniqbal »

Offline Folio

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Re: T9-QWERTY: The Ultra Efficient Minimal Motion Keyboard Layout
« Reply #23 on: Thu, 20 March 2014, 13:56:17 »
I'll definitely check those out. These are all great things to keep in mind when we're developing this. It might just turn into something different entirely.

EDIT:

My god. KeyMonk is amazing. I love the time saved when you don't have to swipe with just one finger all the way across the board. That's convenient. Messagease has a large learning curve, I don't get why people like that one. Is it because it only requires thumb use? I've never tried T9-Trace, but that would just be T9 without lifting a finger. We could implement that into our code possibly with N-Key rollover. I've had Swiftkey forever, it's been glitching a lot lately and hasn't been as good at predicting as it used to be. I probably messed up the dictionary with my weird texting language. I like Minuum and Keymonk the best so far for their innovation and coding behind that.
« Last Edit: Thu, 20 March 2014, 14:19:06 by Folio »

Offline shaaniqbal

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Re: T9-QWERTY: The Ultra Efficient Minimal Motion Keyboard Layout
« Reply #24 on: Thu, 20 March 2014, 16:07:58 »
It is indeed. I've tried to get in touch with the Keymonk developer to see if he'd put the code up for improvement. He hasn't responded yet though, he stopped development a while ago and appears to be inactive. I've had a couple of problems with words not recognising but it could be due to faulty multitouch on my phone. Keymonk has great speed potential with minimal effort. The interface is brilliant too, minimalist and classy - so many apps seem to disregard this quality. We could venture into creating our own touch screen keyboard app at some point, reusing code from the current project. What about a T9-MessagEase hybrid or a continuation of Keymonk?

MessagEase has the appeal of enabling accurate typing without autocorrection. It's useful for programmers and such who remote desktop. Letters are specially arranged to reduce the distance your thumb moves, with the nine most frequent letters as tap letters. Another advantage is that you can access most of the symbols you'll ever need with just one swype right on the main keyboard. It's designed for one thumb but you can learn to use two, and on say a tablet you can have duplicate keyboards and alternate between thumbs for speed. Cheng Wei holds the record for speed typing without autocorrect at around 80 WPM. I've reached similar speeds with the iOS keyboard but with autocorrect.

I like your thinking on utilizing N-KRO in new ways. The same thinking that enabled founder of the Plover project Mirabai Knight to have the brilliant idea that a cheap $45 gaming keyboard could replace $4000 steno hardware. Worth checking out that project as well!

You say how my being into all this is making you the same way which is funny. I'm glad that someone believes in the potential of this project :) Glad to have you on board, Folio.
« Last Edit: Wed, 26 March 2014, 20:19:44 by shaaniqbal »

Offline Folio

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Re: T9-QWERTY: The Ultra Efficient Minimal Motion Keyboard Layout
« Reply #25 on: Fri, 21 March 2014, 10:07:14 »
Good to be on board comrade :)

I like how you're trying to contact people for sample code. Looking at examples could help me get a jump start. That's usually where I find better ways to go about it. This could very well turn into a combobulation of various codes from differing apps.

I saw that steno program that lets you steno on a QWERTY. So awesome. I'm actually trying to learn it right now cuz I wanna hit that 400 WPM mark. Plus, this kind of program brings in the idea of chords for letter combinations. We very well could include that in our NKRO code for T9. Example: Q & W pressed together could give you 'qu' automatically. I've dealt with this kind of code before, so I have an idea on how to go about it.

I feel like T9 and MessagEase put together would be like Samsung's T9-Trace because you can already tap and swipe on it, unless we rearrange the letters for easier access and ergonomics, but then that brings in a learning curve. For example 8pin tries to bring in the idea of natural gestures, but it didn't really click with me because the learning curve was too large. If we do ever create a touch screen app for typing, I want it to be natural and easy to pick up as well as look good like you mentioned (unlike Snapkey's interface :bleh:). That way, people love it instantly and stick with it. We should definitely brainstorm some more on this later on.

I've been typing with KeyMonk a lot now over Minuum. Its code is amazing. I love how you can tap a word out and finish it by swiping with both fingers. So smart and dynamic. I've only had a very minor amount of non-types with it because my screen is large as hell and I know it can take at least 5 fingers (haha fisting!). I can see myself getting used to Minuum, but I love swiping more, plus the way KeyMonk works intrigues me more. Minuum is a screen saver for sure, but that's not necessary with my large phone.


Offline shaaniqbal

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Re: T9-QWERTY: The Ultra Efficient Minimal Motion Keyboard Layout
« Reply #26 on: Sun, 23 March 2014, 18:45:12 »
Yeah, I find the Plover project very inspiring. Mirabai's stenoknight blog gives a cool insight into how it's steadily grown over the years. It's now a fully viable replacement for expensive proprietary steno software and I hope to contribute to the project myself once I've learned Python. If you're looking to hit the 400 WPM mark, you could look into starting off with a steno theory that emphasizes short-writing like Philadelphia Clinic or Magnum Steno as I'm doing. Let me know if you want more info on that.

In other discussions I've seen another idea come up that I'd really like to see developed: We could have something like Plover, that would let you do both steno and normal writing without having to switch between the two. A Steno-QWERTY hybrid basically. With this you could have it only take effect for say, chords of 4+ letters so that it wouldn't interfere with normal typing. You could also have all the common words as a chord while for less common words you'd type them out. That would speed up typing without too much of a learning curve.  With steno, there's quite a learning curve before you begin to write words. And as Plover currently only lets you assign chords to the steno keys, the rest of the keys on the QWERTY keyboard aren't really made use of. (I think the developer may be working on adding that function though.)

Having chords for letter combinations sounds good. T9 aside, what about if we had say "q+n" pressed together to give us a whole word - "question"? There are a couple of scripts already written for "Autohotkey" that might be worth looking at, as example codes. It's encouraging to know that you've already dealt with that sort of code before as I'm sure that'll help. We could sort of invent our own steno theory that makes use of all the QWERTY keys.

I've found that adding new words to these scripts is quite tedious as you have to edit the script file. What I want is a GUI program to help me do it easily. See this for an example script, or this (limited I think to chords of only two keys). If you could program a nice looking GUI interface that would let us easily assign chords that would be brilliant. Having to edit lines of a script or having to find the scancodes for the letters every time I want to add a chord is quite off putting. I essentially want a program like "Phrase Express" with chord functionality.

With touch screen keyboards, I've seen that it's often the most obvious ideas that are overlooked. Like with Keymonk swyping with two thumbs, I wonder why Swype didn't just have that on their keyboard in the first place. In fact they still haven't caught up. And Snapkeys: their new ABC4 keyboard does look really awful. Don't know why they made it like that. Their original one looked quite good though. I haven't tried 8pen yet. Which phone do you use BTW? I'm a bit jealous of Keymonk working perfectly with yours, haha.

One thing Minuum exploits that we could draw inspiration from is allowing the user to type sloppily thanks to their use of a strong autocorrect. The autocorrect is really intelligent on both Minuum and Swiftkey and I wish they'd bring something similar to the PC. I'd buy it in a snap if they did. We could develop our own autocorrect program as well at some point, one that works across all applications. I've tried a couple for Windows such as "Asutype" but there's room for improvement I think.

With the T9-MessagEase hybrid, the advantage over T9 by itself would be unambiguous typing functionality. When you want to enter text that isn't in the T9 dictionary such as Web addresses you could swype for characters. The rest of the time you'd be tapping for high speed. As with the Steno-QWERTY hybrid you ideally wouldn't need to switch between either mode. Every time you swyped it would automatically switch you into unambiguous typing mode for that word (T9 would be disabled and you'd enter MessagEase mode). Minuum does something similar I think with its "precise typing" feature. The MessagEase component would effectively replace "multitap" where you'd have to tap a key a number of times, say the letter "C" would be three taps on the "2" key on a dumbphone. A swype would just be faster.

Let me know if you make any progress with the dictionary generator or if you know anyone who you think might be able to do it. That of course is still our top priority task right now :)
« Last Edit: Wed, 26 March 2014, 20:15:23 by shaaniqbal »

Offline Folio

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Re: T9-QWERTY: The Ultra Efficient Minimal Motion Keyboard Layout
« Reply #27 on: Thu, 27 March 2014, 09:48:22 »
Shaan, I would love more info on short-writing with steno. I will search those terms up when I get the chance. I like your idea on Steno-QWERTY. With a little polishing, it could become very promising -- a future project for sure. I also like your idea on creating full words with the T9 project we're currently working on. This ties in to the notion of programming every single key combination into letters you want for those keys. I think there's a better way. In coding, you can assign variables to anything so that you can call upon it later on. It makes connections more dynamic and free form. In this way, you can have that GUI you want and pretty much assign any letter or combination of letters to any key along with words and the like.

For Keymonk, I'm using an LG Optimus G. The only problems I've had with it is when I need to swipe to letters in the middle of the keyboard and I find myself bumping my thumbs together or I can kind of see the cursor it creates start to spaz out because my fingers are too close. It's still definitely worth it though. I still need to get used to it.

I'm reading this kind of fast because I have work to do, which also explains my absence and slow start, but explain more of that swipe you were thinking about putting into the T9 MessagEase. I don't quite understand that concept.