Author Topic: Kul ES-87 with Cherry mx Clears -- Comparisons with Topre and IBM  (Read 9516 times)

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Offline Hypersphere

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Kul ES-87 with Cherry mx Clears -- Comparisons with Topre and IBM
« on: Sat, 27 September 2014, 15:25:33 »
This review has also been posted on Deskthority (DT):

http://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/kul-es-87-with-cherry-mx-clears-comparisons-with-topre-and-ibm-t8833.html#p185719

Recently, I bought a new Kul ES-87 with Cherry mx clear switches. This board has been available for some time, and a number of reviews are already available. Therefore, this post is not intended to be a thorough review with keyboard pictures, but rather a collection of my impressions about the keyboard and Cherry mx clear switches, including some comparisons with other Cherry mx switches as well as Topre and IBM buckling springs (complete with an inspection of force-displacement curves).

Thus far, the Kul has been available only with mx linear switches (red or black) or tactile switches (brown or clear), but not tactile/clicky switches (blue or green). I had previously tried other boards with black, brown, blue, and green switches, and I had not really liked any of them. Accordingly, I ordered the Kul with clears to try out this new board with a switch that was also new to me.

Kul keyboards are a available through several sources, including Elitekeyboards.com (EK), Mechanicalkeyboards.com (MK), and Amazon. The price is reasonable at 129 USD, and MK and Amazon (Amazon Prime) offer free shipping.

The keyboard is attractively packaged in a sturdy box that includes the keyboard, detachable mini-USB cable, keycap puller, extra keycaps for swapping CapsLock/Control, Escape/Backtick, and Backspace/Backslash, a plastic keyboard cover molded to fit over the keycaps, and a manual written in English.

The keyboard itself is a standard TKL design housed in a sturdy matte black case with no flex or creaking even when pressing down hard anywhere on the top panel. It is equipped with non-skid rubber pads on the bottom front and rear of the case, rubberized feet that lock into position with a reassuring solid snap, a mini-USB connector in a recessed area underneath the keyboard, cable management channels for directing the cable to the left, right, or center, and 8 DIP switches. It has a CapsLock feature with a CapsLock LED, and an LED under the Escape key to indicate Windows Power Mode, but it lacks an embedded numeric keypad and so it has no NumLock LED. My keyboard was equipped with Cherry mx clear switches, and Kul keyboards use Cherry stabilizers. A nice touch that I didn't notice right away is that the bottom of the case has a beveled front edge with its own set of rubberized grip pads, presumably to provide better traction when the feet are extended -- the only other keyboard I know about that has this feature is the RF 87u series.

Although many people like detachable cable connectors in a recessed area with cable management channels, I find it difficult to connect and disconnect the cable from such an arrangement. I prefer to have a connector on the back of the case, as it is often found on sub-TKL keyboards. In fact, I like to have the connector on the left rear of the keyboard (near the Escape key) or the center rear, and rather than being disappointed if the manufacturer decided to put the connector on the right rear of the case, I suppose it is good to have the cable routing channels.

One reason I bought this keyboard is that the abundance of DIP switches (8 of them) provides some handy hardware customizations that I would otherwise have to remap using software. These include the following: 1. Windows/OS X mode; 2. Left Control/CapsLock; 3. Escape/Backtick; 4. Backspace/Backslash; 5. Shift+Fn+Menu/Fn=Menu; Shift+Fn=Fn; 6. 125Hz polling/1000Hz polling; 7. 6-key rollover/N-key rollover; 8. Future expansion. Extra keycaps are provided to correspond with various key swaps.

The DIP switches get high marks from me. I used the DIP switch settings to give me Mac OS X mode, Control to the left of the "A" key, HHKB-like Backspace/Backslash swap, and a remappable Fn key -- with this arrangement, the Fn key sends a scan code to the computer and I do not have any dead keys on the keyboard, as can be the case with keyboards that choose to have a hardwired Fn key. Excellent!

The stock keycaps on the Kul are thin ABS with laser-engraved infilled legends. Because most people would want to replace these, at least eventually, the advantage of the included keycaps for the various possible key swaps would then be lost. However, the aesthetic (and even functional) benefit of dressing up the board with some handsome doubleshots or dye-sub PBT caps would tend to outweigh the specificity of keycap legends (although this is especially nice to have for those who swap Backspace and Backslash).

Everything was fine with the keyboard itself. However, when I started typing on it, my heart sank, as I discovered that I hated typing on Cherry mx clear switches. This surprised me, as I had read glowing accounts from others for whom this switch was a favorite. The tactile bump that has been added to this switch felt scratchy or gritty in the extreme, and rather than representing the collapse of a dome or spring followed by a decrease in force, as in a Topre or IBM buckling spring switch, there was a markedly rising force all the way to bottoming out. Because I normally bottom out when typing on any other type of switch, the force curve of the mx clear switch made me feel as if I was fighting the switch rather than having it do my bidding. Moreover, I found that some of the keys would actually stick at around the actuation point, requiring a slight nudge to get them to spring back to the starting position.

My discomfort with the Cherry mx clear made sense when I actually looked at its force-displacement curve and compared it with the force-displacement curves of two of my favorite switch types, the Topre and the IBM buckling spring.

Cherry mx Clear



Topre



IBM Buckling Spring



With the mx clear switch, the peak force of the tactile bump is 65 cN. The force decreases after the bump to a local minimum of about 50 cN, and the actuation point (operating point) occurs at around 55 cN while the force is increasing with a steep slope. The force then continues to rise steadily to about 90 cN before reaching the bottom of the stroke. It is easy to see why this switch gives a feeling of fighting against it after the actuation point if you try to bottom out the stroke. In fact, the force-displacement curves of all Cherry mx switches share the characteristic of increasing force immediately after the actuation point, regardless of whether the switch is linear, tactile, or tactile/clicky.

In contrast, the force-displacement curve for a 45g Topre switch rises to a tactile bump at 45 cN, but actuation (operationg point) occurs while the force is decreasing. The force continues to decrease, enabling the user to allow the key easily to finish the stroke until reaching bottom.

In like manner to the Topre switch, the force-displacement curve for an IBM buckling spring switch, shown in the bottom panel, increases steadily to a maximum of about 70 cN, whereupon the spring undergoes a catastrophic collapse (it buckles) accompanied by a precipitous drop in force from around 70 cN to about 55 cN, corresponding to actuation ("make") of the switch. After the sudden collapse of the spring, the force then increases again to the bottom of the stroke.

The force-displacement curves for all three switch types exhibit hysteresis -- the return or recovery (upward) stroke does not retrace the downward stroke; instead, the upward stroke follows a different path as the switch resets itself to permit a new activation and recovery cycle.

This analysis of force-displacement curves made it clear to me why I did not like any type of Cherry mx switch and why I liked both Topre and IBM buckling spring switches, which might seem worlds apart in their mechanisms until the force-displacement curves are compared. In general, all Cherry mx switches display increasing force immediately after the actuation point, whereas Topre and IBM buckling spring switches have decreasing force directly after the actuation point.

All was not lost, however. I decided to try replacing the stock keycaps on the Kul with Imsto dye-sub thick PBT and 40A-L O-rings. This resulted in a shortened key travel, thus reducing the interval of the increasing force, bottoming out before the force could go as high as it would with a longer stroke. This gave the feeling of actuation almost coinciding with the bottom of the stroke -- a similar feel in this regard to that of Topre or IBM buckling spring switches.

Indeed, after replacing the keycaps and adding the O-rings, I found that although I still preferred the feel of Topre or IBM buckling spring switches, I enjoyed the Cherry mx clears much more than before, and I liked the clears more than any other Cherry mx switch I had tried to date (black, brown, red, blue, and green). Moreover, objective tests carried out on Typeracer showed that my typing speed and accuracy were markedly better with Cherry mx clears than with any other Cherry switch and even better than my performance on Topre or IBM buckling spring switches. I attribute this, at least in part, to the fact that I make fewer accidental key presses with Cherry mx clears.

Despite my improved typing performance on mx clears, I find prolonged typing sessions with these switches tiring. I can type comfortably much longer using Topre (45g or 55g) or IBM buckling springs (Model M or F). In addition, I still find the feel of the mx clears raspy or gritty, although this sensation has been diminished with the change in keycaps and the installation of O-rings. Nevetheless, I am glad that I did the experiment with changing keycaps and installing O-rings, as this led me to discover that I could tolerate mx clears after all, and rather than putting the Kul ES-87 up for sale for want of liking the switches, it can now be a keeper.

Indeed, all things considered, I like the Kul ES-87 better than any other Cherry mx TKL keyboard I have tried, including the Filco Majestouch 2 TKL Ninja with mx blues, Ducky Shine II with mx browns, and CM Storm QFR Stealth with mx greens. The Kul ES-87 with mx clears even compares favorably with my non-Cherry TKL keyboards, such as the CM Novatouch, but I would still give a higher rating to the IBM Model M SSK and the RF 87u, both the 45g and 55g versions.
« Last Edit: Mon, 29 September 2014, 18:26:24 by Hypersphere »

Offline Puddsy

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Re: Kul ES-87 with Cherry mx Clears -- Comparisons with Topre and IBM
« Reply #1 on: Sun, 28 September 2014, 12:03:23 »
if it makes you feel better, I don't really like clears either. I've gotten used to them after a while, but I don't like them nearly as much as I like typing on reds or blacks.
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Offline Hypersphere

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Re: Kul ES-87 with Cherry mx Clears -- Comparisons with Topre and IBM
« Reply #2 on: Sun, 28 September 2014, 12:31:07 »
Well, I like mx clears "okay" after putting on the thick PBT keycaps with O-rings, although I think that keyboards and their switches ought to be like shoes -- they should feel good immediately; you shouldn't have to "break them in" or modify them in any way to make them comfortable, as sales people often urge you to do. So it is, at least for me, with IBM buckling springs (especially the Model F variety) and Topre switches; they feel good "as is".

Offline Polymer

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Re: Kul ES-87 with Cherry mx Clears -- Comparisons with Topre and IBM
« Reply #3 on: Sun, 28 September 2014, 13:10:18 »
I'm not sure how you're reading the force graph..but based on the force graph and actual usage, buckling spring and cherry tactiles are far more alike than they are to any Topre...

The main difference between Cherry and Buckling Spring is where the bump occurs...

But as far as Bump, Drop off, gradually more force before bottom out..that is the path both Cherry and BS are using.

Topre is...Bump, drop off...bottom....

I'm not saying you don't like Topre and BS best...but they're nothing alike...

Offline Hypersphere

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Re: Kul ES-87 with Cherry mx Clears -- Comparisons with Topre and IBM
« Reply #4 on: Sun, 28 September 2014, 13:41:25 »
@Polymer: If you look at the force curves, you can see that for the Cherry mx clear, the force increases after the actuation point. For the Topre, the force decreases after the actuation point. For the buckling spring, the force dramatically decreases after the actuation point.

For Cherry switches, you are compressing a spring throughout the downward travel of the key. For Topre and buckling springs, the spring (dome in the case of Topre) collapses during the downward travel, resulting in a decrease in force.

For all of these switch types, the force increases again upon bottoming out.

Offline Polymer

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Re: Kul ES-87 with Cherry mx Clears -- Comparisons with Topre and IBM
« Reply #5 on: Sun, 28 September 2014, 16:56:59 »
@Polymer: If you look at the force curves, you can see that for the Cherry mx clear, the force increases after the actuation point. For the Topre, the force decreases after the actuation point. For the buckling spring, the force dramatically decreases after the actuation point.

For Cherry switches, you are compressing a spring throughout the downward travel of the key. For Topre and buckling springs, the spring (dome in the case of Topre) collapses during the downward travel, resulting in a decrease in force.

For all of these switch types, the force increases again upon bottoming out.

But you're reading into it what you want.  Actuation is not a point you feel or see.  I take that back, with BS you can feel when it actuates because that is when it collapses..but actuation in general is not a point you feel..they might design the switch that way but in general, it doesn't need to be.  You don't feel when Topre actuates, you don't feel when MX switches actuate...

If you look at the force curve...There is a bump on all of them. Followed by a drop in force required to keep pressing...that is consistent on all of them.

After the bump, the clear and BS required greater force (after they hit their collapse point) to continue to press on until you hit bottom..

Topre does NOT.  The upwards portion you see on the chart is not required forced unless you're measuring how much more force might be required to keep pushing the rubber further then the actual bottoming out point.  Yes, just before the end the required force goes up a little bit but effectively not doing that at all...the remainder of the upward force required (the very extreme portion) is there only because I'm assuming that technically the plunger can go down slightly more if you squish the rubber..that to me, is not worth measuring and should effectively be ignore...

You're reading the chart wrong...
« Last Edit: Sun, 28 September 2014, 17:12:48 by Polymer »

Offline Hypersphere

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Re: Kul ES-87 with Cherry mx Clears -- Comparisons with Topre and IBM
« Reply #6 on: Sun, 28 September 2014, 18:12:00 »
@Polymer: Thank you for your further insights and interpretations. I agree that the actuation event per se is generally not perceptible to the person pressing the key, although with some switches, actuation occurs near a palpable tactile bump, especially so with BS switches. Nevertheless, there is an identifiable point on the force curve during the actuation-reset cycle that can be specified. This generally occurs around the midpoint of the key travel; around 2 mm for a 4 mm key travel switch. Suppose we were to draw a tangent to the curve at this point. Clearly, for the Cherry switch, the slope of this tangent is positive. For the Topre, the slope of the tangent is clearly negative. For the BS, the tangent is essentially infinite (vertical), because the spring collapses at this point; however, we are dealing with a directional curve as we trace the actuation-reset cycle; clearly the force has decreased at this point. Both the Topre and BS force curves show a decrease in force after the actuation point -- relatively gradual for Topre and precipitous for the BS. In contrast, the Cherry switch force curve shows an increase in force after the actuation point. I hope that this clears up any perceived differences in our interpretations of the force-displacement curves.

Offline Polymer

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Re: Kul ES-87 with Cherry mx Clears -- Comparisons with Topre and IBM
« Reply #7 on: Sun, 28 September 2014, 18:40:33 »
Again, it doesn't matter where actuation is but coming back to BS.

Actuation happens at the collapse...technically it is after it falls NOT before.  You'd have to collapse the spring for it to actuate (that's how it happens).

It then increases after the bump..but let's review this again.

Forget about actuation..look at the force curve and what that is doing when you're pressing on it.

Increase in force (on all of them although Topre is really at max from the start) to overcome the tactile bump.  They might do it at slightly different points but they all require an increase in force to overcome the bump.

There is then a drop in force on all three switches...

Topre drops and basically drops until you bottom....

Clear drops and then requires additional force after the drop to hit bottom.
BS drops and then requires additional force after the drop to hit bottom.

The exact force curves are different...The force to actuate clears actually escalates quite quickly which is why it is actually one of the easier ones to not bottom out on...but regardless, the force curve of any of the tactile MX switches and BS are far more similar than either of them to Topre...which is absolutely nothing like either of them...

Not that it matters but to me it looks like you're trying to make it all fit based on your affinity for both of the switches..you're definitely reading the data in a funny way..

I can see how someone might look at them in a similar way if you only go to actuation on BS...like if you press a BS and then after it collapses you stop...but still, it feels different than a dome collapsing...

Offline deci

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Re: Kul ES-87 with Cherry mx Clears -- Comparisons with Topre and IBM
« Reply #8 on: Sun, 28 September 2014, 18:41:12 »
This is why ergo clears are much more popular than stock ones.

Personally I only like the stock clear spring when it's put in black switches. (Ghost Blacks?)

On the other hand clear stems with 62g or 65g springs feel great to me.
Clear stems with black springs conveniently feel pretty good too. (Panda Clears)
So you can basically get both, swap springs and end up with two sets of mx switches that both feel much better than stock.

I also lube all my mx switches after they are broken in a little to remove that scratchy feeling.
That or just buy them pre-modded from GON.


Offline Hypersphere

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Re: Kul ES-87 with Cherry mx Clears -- Comparisons with Topre and IBM
« Reply #9 on: Sun, 28 September 2014, 18:44:53 »
Again, it doesn't matter where actuation is but coming back to BS.

Actuation happens at the collapse...technically it is after it falls NOT before.  You'd have to collapse the spring for it to actuate (that's how it happens).

It then increases after the bump..but let's review this again.

Forget about actuation..look at the force curve and what that is doing when you're pressing on it.

Increase in force (on all of them although Topre is really at max from the start) to overcome the tactile bump.  They might do it at slightly different points but they all require an increase in force to overcome the bump.

There is then a drop in force on all three switches...

Topre drops and basically drops until you bottom....

Clear drops and then requires additional force after the drop to hit bottom.
BS drops and then requires additional force after the drop to hit bottom.

The exact force curves are different...The force to actuate clears actually escalates quite quickly which is why it is actually one of the easier ones to not bottom out on...but regardless, the force curve of any of the tactile MX switches and BS are far more similar than either of them to Topre...which is absolutely nothing like either of them...

Not that it matters but to me it looks like you're trying to make it all fit based on your affinity for both of the switches..you're definitely reading the data in a funny way..

I can see how someone might look at them in a similar way if you only go to actuation on BS...like if you press a BS and then after it collapses you stop...but still, it feels different than a dome collapsing...
Let's agree that the curves are definitely not congruent!

Thanks for an interesting exchange!

Offline Hypersphere

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Re: Kul ES-87 with Cherry mx Clears -- Comparisons with Topre and IBM
« Reply #10 on: Sun, 28 September 2014, 18:55:04 »
This is why ergo clears are much more popular than stock ones.

Personally I only like the stock clear spring when it's put in black switches. (Ghost Blacks?)

On the other hand clear stems with 62g or 65g springs feel great to me.
Clear stems with black springs conveniently feel pretty good too. (Panda Clears)
So you can basically get both, swap springs and end up with two sets of mx switches that both feel much better than stock.

I also lube all my mx switches after they are broken in a little to remove that scratchy feeling.
That or just buy them pre-modded from GON.
I have seen many recommendations for Ergo Clears. I should try this mod someday.

On the other hand, I remember when I finally earned enough money to buy a really great pair of shoes, which exploded the myth promulgated by the sales staff that shoes had to be "broken in" or outfitted with inserts, etc. to be comfortable. I learned that, in fact, a good pair of shoes ought to be comfortable as soon as you try them on, with no modifications. So I have found with keyboards. There are many flavors of them available, and for my own comfort, I have discovered that Topre and IBM capacitive buckling spring keyboards are comfortable (for me) "right out of the box". This is not to say that some keyboards could not be improved with modifications, just that you might get lucky and find one or two that suit you with no need for making changes.

Offline Polymer

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Re: Kul ES-87 with Cherry mx Clears -- Comparisons with Topre and IBM
« Reply #11 on: Sun, 28 September 2014, 19:34:15 »
Let's agree that the curves are definitely not congruent!

Curves don't have to be congruent to conceptually operate in the same way....

I think if you think about this a bit more you'll understand it..but it'll mean you have to step back...forget about how you think it is happening and look at the actual data...

Or look at browns/blues...which is probably even more similar to BS force curve wise... (or greens which is VERY similar).

Like I said, if you stop close to when BS actuates, I can see how one might look at it more like a Topre (or any rubber dome for that matter).  But the same can be said for other Cherry Tactile switches....But if you follow the press to bottom or close to bottom, they're nothing alike..absolutely nothing alike..I'm not sure where you get the impression Topre requires additional force after it collapses...there is a reason they're basically impossible to not bottom out on when typing (45g..30/35g is different).  You haven't even explained that part although you mentioned somewhere there is an increase in force...not sure what part you're talking about..are you talking about that ever so slight increase right when you hit bottom?  Or are you looking at those curves that go straight up and think that is actually part of a normal button press on Topre?

Offline deci

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Re: Kul ES-87 with Cherry mx Clears -- Comparisons with Topre and IBM
« Reply #12 on: Sun, 28 September 2014, 19:56:53 »
This is why ergo clears are much more popular than stock ones.

Personally I only like the stock clear spring when it's put in black switches. (Ghost Blacks?)

On the other hand clear stems with 62g or 65g springs feel great to me.
Clear stems with black springs conveniently feel pretty good too. (Panda Clears)
So you can basically get both, swap springs and end up with two sets of mx switches that both feel much better than stock.

I also lube all my mx switches after they are broken in a little to remove that scratchy feeling.
That or just buy them pre-modded from GON.
I have seen many recommendations for Ergo Clears. I should try this mod someday.

On the other hand, I remember when I finally earned enough money to buy a really great pair of shoes, which exploded the myth promulgated by the sales staff that shoes had to be "broken in" or outfitted with inserts, etc. to be comfortable. I learned that, in fact, a good pair of shoes ought to be comfortable as soon as you try them on, with no modifications. So I have found with keyboards. There are many flavors of them available, and for my own comfort, I have discovered that Topre and IBM capacitive buckling spring keyboards are comfortable (for me) "right out of the box". This is not to say that some keyboards could not be improved with modifications, just that you might get lucky and find one or two that suit you with no need for making changes.

But where's the fun in that?
Not much of a hobby at that point  :p

Besides if that is the way you want to look at it, just purchase a pre-assembled GON.

Lol I feel you though. HHKB is pretty close to perfect right out of the box.
If only it came with a fully customizable pcb. (I'm doing a Teensy mod as we speak)

« Last Edit: Sun, 28 September 2014, 19:59:47 by deci »

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Kul ES-87 with Cherry mx Clears -- Comparisons with Topre and IBM
« Reply #13 on: Sun, 28 September 2014, 23:34:28 »
After the bump, the clear and BS required greater force (after they hit their collapse point) to continue to press on until you hit bottom..

Topre does NOT.  [...]

You're reading the chart wrong...
Actually these charts are just super inaccurate and don’t properly describe the feel of the switches.

Here were a handful of measured switches:

Cherry MX blue:


IBM Model F:


Amber Omron B3G-S:


“Monterey” Blue SMK Alps-mount:


We should try to measure some Topre switches, it would be helpful. Hopefully HaaTa can also get a rig set up at some point that does an adequate job measuring the force on the return stroke.
« Last Edit: Sun, 28 September 2014, 23:46:59 by jacobolus »

Offline Hypersphere

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Re: Kul ES-87 with Cherry mx Clears -- Comparisons with Topre and IBM
« Reply #14 on: Mon, 29 September 2014, 07:25:45 »
@Jacobolus: Excellent! Did you generate these curves? If not, what is the source? These are quite informative, and it would be of interest to get the return portion of the cycle as well.
« Last Edit: Mon, 29 September 2014, 07:36:33 by Hypersphere »

Offline janvkn

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Re: Kul ES-87 with Cherry mx Clears -- Comparisons with Topre and IBM
« Reply #15 on: Mon, 29 September 2014, 15:35:36 »
I recognize a lot of what you write about the mx clear switch. When I got my Poker II with clears, my first impression was not good. If mx browns feel like mx reds with grains of sand in them, this felt like crushing entire rocks of salt with my bare fingers. My hands started to hurt after 5 minutes of using it. I hated it, and I was already pondering selling the board after less than a day of ownership.

One thing I noticed though, my typing was very accurate on them, I made a lot less typos because of accidental actuations. That is why I decided to give it another shot. I used the Poker II as my main board for two weeks, and forced myself to use it as much as possible, I took it to work and used it at home.

Gradually, during these two weeks, I found myself starting to like them more and more and I started to appreciate the soft crunchy feeling. My typing started to change too, instead of wrestling them (as you accurately describe), I started typing more softly, not bottoming out anymore. As a result, my hands don't hurt anymore either.

Now, I really like this little keyboard and I intend to keep using it as my main keyboard for the near future, but the switches were definitely an acquired taste.