Author Topic: Gateron Blacks chattering on Varmilo VA87ML  (Read 5707 times)

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Offline sandywind

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Gateron Blacks chattering on Varmilo VA87ML
« on: Tue, 04 August 2020, 20:19:52 »
Quite a few of the Gateron Black keys of my Varmilo VA87ML chatter. I installed Elitekeyboards SwitchHitter which confirmed the chattering.

The keyboard has been used very little in production work and negligibly for gaming. Before blaming the keys or the implementation, I would like to ask you if this keyboard model and switches combination is known for having such issues.
Corsair Vengeance K65 w/ SP DCS Twilight Keycaps | Poker II w/ Danger Zone keycaps | HHKB Pro 2 | Realforce 87UW55 | IBM PC BS 80's | OLKB Planck | IC WhiteFox | Varmilo VA87ML

Offline HungerMechanic

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Re: Gateron Blacks chattering on Varmilo VA87ML
« Reply #1 on: Tue, 04 August 2020, 22:09:26 »
What I do know is that this is a known issue with Varmilo keyboards and Gateron switches.

If you look at, for example, the comments on an old drop from MassDrop when they pre-ordered a bunch of these, people with the Gateron switches reported numerous issues with chatter.

I went to the Varmilo custom store back in 2018 and asked for Gateron switches. They told me they don't do Gateron switches anymore. I later read that Varmilo had to ditch Gateron switches because of reliability issues in their keyboards.

They use Cherry MX in their standard keyboards, and a range of switches in their custom store, but not the cheap Gateron switches. So I think you are experiencing a known problem with that combination.

Offline sandywind

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Re: Gateron Blacks chattering on Varmilo VA87ML
« Reply #2 on: Wed, 05 August 2020, 09:01:36 »
Sad. I haven't tried many switches (eight), but Gateron reds and blacks are very smooth and I really like this feature. I got the board from Massdrop and I recall reading some comments on this topic but I was not sure it was a problem of the specific batch they sold at the time. I also got a WhiteFox with Gateron reds from MassDrop, I used it much more frequently than the Varmilo and I have had no problems at all with it.

One more question, if I were to buy another linear keyboard, which switches should I look for? Except Cherry, because I find them a little too scratchy.
Corsair Vengeance K65 w/ SP DCS Twilight Keycaps | Poker II w/ Danger Zone keycaps | HHKB Pro 2 | Realforce 87UW55 | IBM PC BS 80's | OLKB Planck | IC WhiteFox | Varmilo VA87ML

Offline HungerMechanic

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Re: Gateron Blacks chattering on Varmilo VA87ML
« Reply #3 on: Wed, 05 August 2020, 10:09:48 »
You're in luck, because linears are very hot right now. You can get many custom linears at a price to performance ratio that didn't exist a couple of years ago.

You'll have to get a custom keyboard so that you can use the custom switches, or be willing to desolder / resolder a factory keboard. You can also buy a Varmilo custom, if it offers the relevant switches. Or just get a hotswap keyboard so that you can plug in the switches yourself.

Regardless of how you do it, there are many great linears today. JWK / Durock in China is probably the hottest right now. They have a bunch of coloured switches that are nearly the same, just slight variations of each other. The Alpaca/Mauve and H1 are the most notable right now, and there is also the similar C3 Tangerine linear. You just missed a drop for Tangerines at the Key Dot Company, and you just missed recent sales of H1s as well, so that's a shame.

Tangerines are weighted at 62 and 67 G, Alpacas are 62, Mauves are 65, and H1s are 78 G. The H1s are meant to evoke vintage Blacks, and so are coloured and weighted accordingly. Although they don't feel exactly like vint. blacks. Any of these switches are an excellent platform to build from. The JWK / Durock linears need lubing and filming to reach their full potential, otherwise they are only slightly better than cheap Gateron switches. I'm thinking of a TKL build with lubed Alpacas using 65 gr TX springs, which I have tested.

Anyway, you can generally only buy these switches as soon as they go on sale, and they are quickly sold out. So you can get on the mailing lists of the retailers who stock them, and then you can be present when they are sold.

These aren't the only linears that are big right now. The Gateron Ink switches are a step above the Gaterons you've been using before. The favoured one is the Black Ink, and you can change spring weight manually if you don't like the stock weight. People aren't as fond of the Yellow Ink, so you might want to skip that. In general, the Gateron Ink switches are better in stock form than the JWK/Durock linears. It's just that the Durocks are cheaper and can be substantially improved. So these Gateron Inks have to be taken very seriously.

Then there are the Novelkeys Cream switches. They got hyped a lot as a result of Youtube. And they have their strong points. Although enthusiasts seem to use the Durock and Gateron Ink switches more than Novelkeys Cream. Creams can be modded according to user preference as well.

Then there are the Zealio linears, like Tealios. They should be the best out-of-box linears. For some people, they are so good that they don't bother lubing them. But lubed these can be top tier, it's just that they are expensive.

So your options are enormous now, this is a golden age of MX linears. Recently, Novelkeys began offering its own line of JWK / Durock linears, the Silk and Dry series:

https://novelkeys.xyz/collections/switches?page=2

They are the JWK switches, but either factory-lubed or completely dry [so that you can lube them]. They have a range of weights that may already suit your preferences. So it's 100% worth building a custom linear keyboard right now. You can make something really endgame while using mid-range parts, like kits from KBDFans. Getting ahold of some of these linears will be a problem, but it's worth it. You can get something noticeably better than what existed before.

Offline treeleaf64

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Re: Gateron Blacks chattering on Varmilo VA87ML
« Reply #4 on: Wed, 05 August 2020, 10:45:57 »
Yes

Stock Jwk is smoother than Gat with lube

But film / lubricant helps a lot  for any switch       and should be used on  Mx switches 
If u can lube, then it is worth it


But Gat switches  are still   good for price!!!

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Offline HungerMechanic

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Re: Gateron Blacks chattering on Varmilo VA87ML
« Reply #5 on: Wed, 05 August 2020, 19:21:20 »
True. I wrote that stock JWK is only slightly better than cheap stock Gaterons [like Yellows], but the truth is some batches of JWK switches, including Alpacas, are actually much smoother than stock Gaterons like Reds.

But it's best to film / lube them anyways. Gat yellow is cheaper and pretty good, but why not go for the best?

EDIT: For OP, here are some reviews / discussion about the new Silk / Dry switches from Novelkeys. According to some, they may be the best JWK linears yet.

https://www.keebtalk.com/t/what-did-you-get-in-the-mail-today/1572/2586

https://www.keebtalk.com/t/finally-see-the-love-for-linears/9896/16

https://www.keebtalk.com/t/finally-see-the-love-for-linears/9896/23

« Last Edit: Wed, 05 August 2020, 19:30:24 by HungerMechanic »

Offline sandywind

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Re: Gateron Blacks chattering on Varmilo VA87ML
« Reply #6 on: Mon, 10 August 2020, 04:56:05 »
Thanks for your very detailed answers and comments. Meanwhile the W key has started to fail to register randomly. IIRC, it has been noted in Geekhack that chatter for some switches is often followed in time by more serious failures. I regret not having bought the board with MX, now I have to desolder every switch and replace it.

It's really time for a change. I will definitely look for a hot-swappable keyboard and an initial set of switches among the ones you have mentioned.
Corsair Vengeance K65 w/ SP DCS Twilight Keycaps | Poker II w/ Danger Zone keycaps | HHKB Pro 2 | Realforce 87UW55 | IBM PC BS 80's | OLKB Planck | IC WhiteFox | Varmilo VA87ML

Offline HungerMechanic

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Re: Gateron Blacks chattering on Varmilo VA87ML
« Reply #7 on: Mon, 10 August 2020, 09:32:08 »
You shouldn't have to regret buying a board with Gateron switches. Normally, that's a sound decision. But a particular issue with Gateron switches in that run of Varmilo keyboards has led to widespread failures of the kind that you are describing. In that instance was it a mistake to buy Gateron. I'm sorry that happened to you.

But getting a hot-swappable keyboard and testing switches is the right idea. If the GMMK is too expensive outside of sales, you might want to look into the Rakk Lam Ang, a Phillippines keyboard that is a perfectly fine hotswap board.

Offline asciisii

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Re: Gateron Blacks chattering on Varmilo VA87ML
« Reply #8 on: Mon, 10 August 2020, 12:58:38 »
Gateron Yellows with lube feel really nice. Obviously not as nice as alpacas or tangies from my experience, but considering how cheap they are Gat Yellows would be a great start.

Offline jcoffin1981

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Re: Gateron Blacks chattering on Varmilo VA87ML
« Reply #9 on: Mon, 10 August 2020, 22:35:05 »
I had a KB Paradise board with Gateron Browns.  Some of the key's would chatter just awfully, especially the spacebar.  I changed the bad switches to cherry brown- no change at all.  I also changed the debounce settings to no avail.  I was told by the company that the issue is with the board and not the switches.
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Offline HungerMechanic

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Re: Gateron Blacks chattering on Varmilo VA87ML
« Reply #10 on: Tue, 11 August 2020, 07:18:36 »
I'm not sure that the problem was with the Gateron switches themselves during that particular bad run of Varmilo keyboards.

I think it's very possible that Varmilo wasn't able to reliably integrate them into their keyboards. Maybe their production line just wasn't set up properly to solder them in, or there was some kind of PCB incompatibility. There were problems during that run, and they gave up on cheap Gateron switches for a while.

Offline sandywind

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Re: Gateron Blacks chattering on Varmilo VA87ML
« Reply #11 on: Sun, 25 April 2021, 13:00:17 »
I had to postpone my research into hot-swappable keyboards for a while, but now I am back on track.

Alpacas V2 are being offered by PrimeKB. Do they compare favourably  with the other switches (JWK/Durock, Gateron) that have been mentioned in this thread?
« Last Edit: Sun, 25 April 2021, 15:50:32 by sandywind »
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Offline HungerMechanic

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Re: Gateron Blacks chattering on Varmilo VA87ML
« Reply #12 on: Mon, 26 April 2021, 03:11:21 »
Alpaca are JWK/Durock. In fact, they were the 'breakout' JWK linear a year or so ago.

If memory serves, the 'V2' designator on the Alpaca is given to it by enthusiasts, not the manufacturer. It denotes certain minor manufacturing changes.

Some believe the V2 to be better than Alpaca V1, although it's not entirely clear-cut.

They certainly epitomize JWK smoothness. The V2 might be a little tighter, can't remember their characteristics, might want to look up Theremingoat review if he talked about V2.

Some popular JWK linears [Tangerines] have experienced manufacturing issues right now, but I think Alpaca V2 is exempt from them at the moment. [Honestly not sure.]

I would go here:

https://www.theremingoat.com/

and read up on the latest Durock, KTT, and Everglide switches. The trick is to use whatever came off the latest JWK molds for optimum smoothness and tight housings, as that usually works. He also talks about Alpaca V2.

Offline treeleaf64

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Re: Gateron Blacks chattering on Varmilo VA87ML
« Reply #13 on: Mon, 26 April 2021, 23:27:03 »
Hm that's weird I've never had Gateron chatter on me.   Maybe it is the keyboard and not the switches.  But maybe It is a  Treeleaf moment
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Offline sandywind

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Re: Gateron Blacks chattering on Varmilo VA87ML
« Reply #14 on: Thu, 29 April 2021, 16:49:40 »
They certainly epitomize JWK smoothness. The V2 might be a little tighter, can't remember their characteristics, might want to look up Theremingoat review if he talked about V2.
The review is indeed very good. Alpacas V2 are smoother. I'll read other reviews as you suggested, at the moment the simplest approach is probably the 75% GMMK + Alpacas V2.
Corsair Vengeance K65 w/ SP DCS Twilight Keycaps | Poker II w/ Danger Zone keycaps | HHKB Pro 2 | Realforce 87UW55 | IBM PC BS 80's | OLKB Planck | IC WhiteFox | Varmilo VA87ML

Offline sandywind

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Re: Gateron Blacks chattering on Varmilo VA87ML
« Reply #15 on: Wed, 18 August 2021, 15:27:17 »
Hm that's weird I've never had Gateron chatter on me.   Maybe it is the keyboard and not the switches.  But maybe It is a  Treeleaf moment

To be sure, I swapped 5 switches clearly chattering with another group of 5 which apparently were much less affected. I have typed on the keyboard for a short time and it seems that chatter followed the switches.

I would replace the switches that chatter, but I cannot find plate-mounted Gateron Blacks. (Independent of my next Alpaca build.)

EDIT: Actually, Aliexpress sells 3 pin Gaterons in various quantities.
« Last Edit: Wed, 18 August 2021, 15:46:25 by sandywind »
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Offline sandywind

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Re: Gateron Blacks chattering on Varmilo VA87ML
« Reply #16 on: Sun, 03 October 2021, 06:22:07 »
I went for stock, factory lubed Durock L4, typed a few hundred characters, they are much better than the Gateron Black switches they replaced. I am very satisfied with the keyboard now. No chattering whatsoever.

I might lube them later. Considering the time to desolder 87 switches without a proper desoldering station, and how smooth and tight these switches are already, at least compared to what I've been using, maybe now lubing and filming is not worth it.

I would like to thank you all for your advice and time!
« Last Edit: Sun, 03 October 2021, 06:24:01 by sandywind »
Corsair Vengeance K65 w/ SP DCS Twilight Keycaps | Poker II w/ Danger Zone keycaps | HHKB Pro 2 | Realforce 87UW55 | IBM PC BS 80's | OLKB Planck | IC WhiteFox | Varmilo VA87ML