Alps Appreciation Thread

[klennkellon]

Whats up with all of the stepped keys on the XT Model F.

How come the XT version got all stepped keys and the AT version used mostly stabed keys? Is there a reason for this?

[chyros]

Whats up with all of the stepped keys on the XT Model F.

How come the XT version got all stepped keys and the AT version used mostly stabed keys? Is there a reason for this?

They didn't like using stabs at the time.

[y11971alex]

Whats up with all of the stepped keys on the XT Model F.

How come the XT version got all stepped keys and the AT version used mostly stabed keys? Is there a reason for this?

My guess is that it's a holdover from beam spring.  The two keys on the bottom edges of my 3101, RESET and SEND respectively, have off-centre stems off to the sides, so the bit towards the centre is stepped off; however, I found that they didn't really need to step the keys, as they push just as smoothly on the stepped off bits.  The 3101 also shares the XT's propensity for small SHIFT keys and a vertical return key, though on the beam spring the SHIFT, LOCK (third row leftmost), RETURN (vertical, third to fourth row), BACKSPACE, are not stepped either.  Perhaps IBM recognized this quaint shortcoming of buckling springs but didn't care about it...?

Of course these are only guesses.

[emdude]

The PC-AT succeeded the PC-XT, so the AT layout was just another iterative step towards the modern 104-key layout.

Correct me if I am wrong on this, but the real crime here is that even after IBM introduced the 101-key layout with the PS/2, manufacturers continued to copy the BAE and 1u Backspace of the AT *coughalpscough*.

[y11971alex]

The PC-AT succeeded the PC-XT, so the AT layout was just another iterative step towards the modern 104-key layout.

Correct me if I am wrong on this, but the real crime here is that even after IBM introduced the 101-key layout with the PS/2, manufacturers continued to copy the BAE and 1u Backspace of the AT *coughalpscough*.

Isn't the BAE just a merger of the ISO and ANSI return keys?  Focus does a good job preserving a usable BACKSPACE by placing the BACKSLASH to the right of the right SHIFT, which is quite reasonable in my opinion.  I don't strike the right SHIFT on its right side, at all; perhaps my pinky is too short.   

[emdude]

Yeah, Focus is a nice exception; I find their keyboards' layout to be pretty reasonable as well.

The 1u Backspace was such a bad, bad idea though.

[mike52787]

Diamonds in the (very) rough

[Mattr567]

Diamonds in the (very) rough

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Same here. Hope yours come out well too! Need to get that Dupont lube and I should be ready for reassembly.

[mike52787]

Diamonds in the (very) rough

Show Image

Same here. Hope yours come out well too! Need to get that Dupont lube and I should be ready for reassembly.

Could you link me the lube you found?

[Wingpad]

Could you link me the lube you found?

I have been experimenting with this lube, it seems to work reasonably well.

[Mattr567]

Went looking for boards at thrift shops but the closet thing I found was a Dell Quietkey A friend of mine recently found a Fujitsu FKB4700.

[Blaise170]

Fujitsu Peerless is just as worthless as rubber domes.

[klennkellon]

Got Wingpads switches today.

SKCM Orange feel lovely, very smooth and the tactility is sharp but feels less harsh than the Matias QC.

SKCM Black feel really weird. They have an audible but soft "click" and it feels like there's 2 bumps, they sound like they were "half click modded" like Chyros demonstrated.

Dampened Cream: They're like stiffer Matias QC but a little louder and less mushy feeling.


I think I'll solder all of these switches under the print screen, scroll lock, and pause/break key so I have a little tester built into the board. Definitely going to invest in some SKCM orange to replace the alphas. If I collect some more switches I'll replace the nav cluster as well.

[Mattr567]

Fujitsu Peerless is just as worthless as rubber domes.

I know, but at least its different and interesting.

[chyros]

Fujitsu Peerless is just as worthless as rubber domes.

I know, but at least its different and interesting.

Some people REALLY like them. Personally I find them disappointing though, especially considering how good other Fujitsu switches are.

[Wingpad]

SKCM Black feel really weird. They have an audible but soft "click" and it feels like there's 2 bumps, they sound like they were "half click modded" like Chyros demonstrated.

Every SKCM (Bamboo) Black board I've played with has had that "problem;" I assure you those are stock, though.

I think I'll solder all of these switches under the print screen, scroll lock, and pause/break key so I have a little tester built into the board. Definitely going to invest in some SKCM orange to replace the alphas. If I collect some more switches I'll replace the nav cluster as well.

That's a pretty good idea, I would put them there too since I never use those keys Which board are you working on, again?

[Blaise170]

Fujitsu Peerless is just as worthless as rubber domes.

I know, but at least its different and interesting.

Some people REALLY like them. Personally I find them disappointing though, especially considering how good other Fujitsu switches are.

I bought about 12 Peerless boards to resell and it took me months to sell them all at $12 each.

[emdude]

Got Wingpads switches today.

SKCM Orange feel lovely, very smooth and the tactility is sharp but feels less harsh than the Matias QC.

SKCM Black feel really weird. They have an audible but soft "click" and it feels like there's 2 bumps, they sound like they were "half click modded" like Chyros demonstrated.

Dampened Cream: They're like stiffer Matias QC but a little louder and less mushy feeling.


I think I'll solder all of these switches under the print screen, scroll lock, and pause/break key so I have a little tester built into the board. Definitely going to invest in some SKCM orange to replace the alphas. If I collect some more switches I'll replace the nav cluster as well.

I have not tried SKCM Blacks myself but looking at this force graph at least, your assessment of them sounds about right.



How weird, there's two pretty distinct tactile points on an SKCM Black's force curve; it's no wonder people think they feel rough.

Interestingly, SKCM Creams (presumably Damped), have a similar force curve, but the second bump is a bit less pronounced.

It looks like that extra bump might be due to the switchplate leaf, would that assessment be a reasonable one?

[fohat.digs]

I still may not actually get around to doing it for a month, but I got a great Northgate 101 on ebay with like new complicated white Alps, and I am going to upgrade them. I have had soldering problems with Northgates several times in the past, so now, with Mr Bishop's great tool, I want to leave the switch bodies intact and in place and do whatever I am going to do from the top.

What I want to achieve is a light action and quiet but distinctly tactile switch. I have enough good clean orange to do the whole thing, plus tons of others (black, white, cream (old Wang creams, not the dampened Apple type), and a few blues).

My thought now is to use orange, either straight-up or click-modded, and I will take them apart, clean them thoroughly, and lightly lube them before I install them into the new switch bodies. As I understand it, the orange springs are among the lightest available, already, and lubing them should make them seem even lighter.

So I am left with whether to mod the leaves. Tactility is supremely important to me, and noise is more of a minus than a plus, but I will gladly lived with less-than-ideal sound to optimize the feel.

Does this sound like a plan, and/or do you have other suggestions? I have never seriously modded Alps switches before.

[mike52787]

I still may not actually get around to doing it for a month, but I got a great Northgate 101 on ebay with like new complicated white Alps, and I am going to upgrade them. I have had soldering problems with Northgates several times in the past, so now, with Mr Bishop's great tool, I want to leave the switch bodies intact and in place and do whatever I am going to do from the top.

What I want to achieve is a light action and quiet but distinctly tactile switch. I have enough good clean orange to do the whole thing, plus tons of others (black, white, cream (old Wang creams, not the dampened Apple type), and a few blues).

My thought now is to use orange, either straight-up or click-modded, and I will take them apart, clean them thoroughly, and lightly lube them before I install them into the new switch bodies. As I understand it, the orange springs are among the lightest available, already, and lubing them should make them seem even lighter.

So I am left with whether to mod the leaves. Tactility is supremely important to me, and noise is more of a minus than a plus, but I will gladly lived with less-than-ideal sound to optimize the feel.

Does this sound like a plan, and/or do you have other suggestions? I have never seriously modded Alps switches before.

I would just go with stock creams or click modded creams. nice tactilty, smooth, snappy and a cool sound. whats not to love?

[emdude]

@fohat, if you want even lighter springs, sprit is about to start producing his custom Alps springs in August, by the looks of things: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=55888.0

[alh84001]

@fohat, it looks like we are in a similar situation as I got an Omnikey 101 on eBay yesterday as well. It will take some time to get to me, but I already have blues ready for it, since I am not looking for a silent board. I have some green switches for modifiers, and I can get some orange ones which I plan to use for numpad and F-keys. Now I just can't decide whether to put orange ones (or just their springs) on ring finger and pinky alphas to make them that bit lighter (ones on my AEK feel especially light), and whether to clickmod all the orange ones, or just some.

I have one click-modded orange on my aek (the power button) and I think that if you don't mind the noise, nothing is lost with the mod. Those blacks you have, are their old-logo AT101 or new ones? I only have old ones, and while they are OK on their own, when directly comparing against other types, their weaknesses really show.

[chyros]

I still may not actually get around to doing it for a month, but I got a great Northgate 101 on ebay with like new complicated white Alps, and I am going to upgrade them. I have had soldering problems with Northgates several times in the past, so now, with Mr Bishop's great tool, I want to leave the switch bodies intact and in place and do whatever I am going to do from the top.

What I want to achieve is a light action and quiet but distinctly tactile switch. I have enough good clean orange to do the whole thing, plus tons of others (black, white, cream (old Wang creams, not the dampened Apple type), and a few blues).

My thought now is to use orange, either straight-up or click-modded, and I will take them apart, clean them thoroughly, and lightly lube them before I install them into the new switch bodies. As I understand it, the orange springs are among the lightest available, already, and lubing them should make them seem even lighter.

So I am left with whether to mod the leaves. Tactility is supremely important to me, and noise is more of a minus than a plus, but I will gladly lived with less-than-ideal sound to optimize the feel.

Does this sound like a plan, and/or do you have other suggestions? I have never seriously modded Alps switches before.

I'd advise against lubing Alps, especially when they're already in good condition. It's probably not worth it mate, they're great the way they are by default .

If you want tactile, you can just use the orange tactile leaf. Half-click modded you can also do they're a fair bit louder already though, probably not what you're looking for if you're after a quiet click board. Fully click-modded you might as well keep the white's click leaves I think .

[emdude]

I just purchased a pretty cheap Focus FK-5001 (as well as a 2nd gen IBM PCjr keyboard that will be neat just to have) that appears to be in very good condition, as far as colouration goes.   As someone prefers smaller keyboards, I find it delightfully excessive.

Hope the calculator works!  Also, would a simple AT-PS/2 adapter be sufficient for the keyboard?



EDIT: Added a pic from the listing.

[klennkellon]

SKCM Black feel really weird. They have an audible but soft "click" and it feels like there's 2 bumps, they sound like they were "half click modded" like Chyros demonstrated.

Every SKCM (Bamboo) Black board I've played with has had that "problem;" I assure you those are stock, though.

I think I'll solder all of these switches under the print screen, scroll lock, and pause/break key so I have a little tester built into the board. Definitely going to invest in some SKCM orange to replace the alphas. If I collect some more switches I'll replace the nav cluster as well.

That's a pretty good idea, I would put them there too since I never use those keys Which board are you working on, again?

KBParadise V80 with Matias QC

I just purchased a pretty cheap Focus FK-5001 (as well as a 2nd gen IBM PCjr keyboard that will be neat just to have) that appears to be in very good condition, as far as colouration goes.   As someone prefers smaller keyboards, I find it delightfully excessive.

Hope the calculator works!  Also, would a simple AT-PS/2 adapter be sufficient for the keyboard?

It should because AT -> PS/2 is just changing the pins really, I think you'll still need an active PS/2 -> USB adapter though.

[quasistellar]

The PCjr keyboard is one of the worst keyboards of all time. I had one growing up. The ****ing wireless feature didn't even work. Jesus H Christ I still have nightmares about that thing. It's probably the reason I care so much about keyboard feel today.

If you ever have doubts about this hobby, try typing a few sentences on a PCjr keyboard. You'll probably immediately buy a Realforce with an artisan for each key just to cleanse your soul afterward.

[klennkellon]

The 2nd gen pcjr boards are at least usable, those first gen chiclet styles were ****ing abominable.

[emdude]

The PCjr keyboard is one of the worst keyboards of all time. I had one growing up. The ****ing wireless feature didn't even work. Jesus H Christ I still have nightmares about that thing. It's probably the reason I care so much about keyboard feel today.

If you ever have doubts about this hobby, try typing a few sentences on a PCjr keyboard. You'll probably immediately buy a Realforce with an artisan for each key just to cleanse your soul afterward.

Haha, thanks for the laugh.  I am genuinely curious about how the PCjr keyboard feels though, I mean, it's just a rubber dome, how bad could it be??

[Mattr567]

The PCjr keyboard is one of the worst keyboards of all time. I had one growing up. The ****ing wireless feature didn't even work. Jesus H Christ I still have nightmares about that thing. It's probably the reason I care so much about keyboard feel today.

If you ever have doubts about this hobby, try typing a few sentences on a PCjr keyboard. You'll probably immediately buy a Realforce with an artisan for each key just to cleanse your soul afterward.

Haha, thanks for the laugh.  I am genuinely curious about how the PCjr keyboard feels though, I mean, it's just a rubber dome, how bad could it be??

Looks like someone pulled the buttons from a fridge.

[emdude]

Thankfully I got the 2nd gen PCjr keyboard.  The 1st gen one was perhaps a bit too far ahead of its time.

[y11971alex]

The PCjr keyboard is one of the worst keyboards of all time. I had one growing up. The ****ing wireless feature didn't even work. Jesus H Christ I still have nightmares about that thing. It's probably the reason I care so much about keyboard feel today.

If you ever have doubts about this hobby, try typing a few sentences on a PCjr keyboard. You'll probably immediately buy a Realforce with an artisan for each key just to cleanse your soul afterward.

Haha, thanks for the laugh.  I am genuinely curious about how the PCjr keyboard feels though, I mean, it's just a rubber dome, how bad could it be??

Looks like someone pulled the buttons from a fridge.

What kind of fridge has buttons?

[MandrewDavis]

Just picked up this NOS keyboard off eBay with Blue Alps, they feel great! I like the inclusion of arrow keys, but its going to take some getting used to the backspace. Build quality is solid, and the plate/pcb combo almost give it a bouncy feeling. Its pretty amazing to me that it has just sat in a bag for 30 years.


More pictures:

More

You can tell where it has yellowed where exposed to light. Incoming retrobright treatment?

Nice finish on the plate with double-shots too!

High quality connector.

I checked the FCC ID and its from 1986 so the switches should fit the period.

Can anyone tell me more about it, could I use something like Soarer's to remap some keys?
There seems to be nothing on the Copam K-430 except this thread from a while ago.

What kind of fridge has buttons?

 Also, my Kenmore fridge has buttons

[quasistellar]

The PCjr keyboard is one of the worst keyboards of all time. I had one growing up. The ****ing wireless feature didn't even work. Jesus H Christ I still have nightmares about that thing. It's probably the reason I care so much about keyboard feel today.

If you ever have doubts about this hobby, try typing a few sentences on a PCjr keyboard. You'll probably immediately buy a Realforce with an artisan for each key just to cleanse your soul afterward.

Haha, thanks for the laugh.  I am genuinely curious about how the PCjr keyboard feels though, I mean, it's just a rubber dome, how bad could it be??

Really bad.

The 2nd gen at least had normal keycaps, but if I remember right, the mechanism still felt just as ****ty

[chyros]

Just picked up this NOS keyboard off eBay with Blue Alps, they feel great! I like the inclusion of arrow keys, but its going to take some getting used to the backspace. Build quality is solid, and the plate/pcb combo almost give it a bouncy feeling. Its pretty amazing to me that it has just sat in a bag for 30 years.

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More pictures:

More

You can tell where it has yellowed where exposed to light. Incoming retrobright treatment?

Show Image

Nice finish on the plate with double-shots too!

Show Image

High quality connector.

Show Image

I checked the FCC ID and its from 1986 so the switches should fit the period.

Show Image

Can anyone tell me more about it, could I use something like Soarer's to remap some keys?
There seems to be nothing on the Copam K-430 except this thread from a while ago.

What kind of fridge has buttons? :P

 Also, my Kenmore fridge has buttons :cool:

Ohhhh, NOS blue Alps. SO GOOOOOD. Great find, congrats! :D

[E3E]

Just picked up this NOS keyboard off eBay with Blue Alps, they feel great! I like the inclusion of arrow keys, but its going to take some getting used to the backspace. Build quality is solid, and the plate/pcb combo almost give it a bouncy feeling. Its pretty amazing to me that it has just sat in a bag for 30 years.

Ahh yeah, I saw this one  on eBay a while back, but I wasn't really into the price they were asking for an 84 key.

To be fair though, Leading Edge DC-2014s were going for the same price or higher lately, so it's not a bad deal at all. Congrats!

[MandrewDavis]

Just picked up this NOS keyboard off eBay with Blue Alps, they feel great! I like the inclusion of arrow keys, but its going to take some getting used to the backspace. Build quality is solid, and the plate/pcb combo almost give it a bouncy feeling. Its pretty amazing to me that it has just sat in a bag for 30 years.

Ahh yeah, I saw this one  on eBay a while back, but I wasn't really into the price they were asking for an 84 key.

To be fair though, Leading Edge DC-2014s were going for the same price or higher lately, so it's not a bad deal at all. Congrats!

Actually, that was the one I bought. I saw it sold for $180 to first time around, but I guess they didn't pay. Considering the condition my AEK with oranges was , I didn't mind paying a small premium (and taking a risk) for a clean board. It was eventually relisted and I got a much better deal.

A big thanks to E3E and Chyros! Those videos and awesome projects are what really got me down this rabbit hole of Alps.

[E3E]

Just picked up this NOS keyboard off eBay with Blue Alps, they feel great! I like the inclusion of arrow keys, but its going to take some getting used to the backspace. Build quality is solid, and the plate/pcb combo almost give it a bouncy feeling. Its pretty amazing to me that it has just sat in a bag for 30 years.

Ahh yeah, I saw this one  on eBay a while back, but I wasn't really into the price they were asking for an 84 key.

To be fair though, Leading Edge DC-2014s were going for the same price or higher lately, so it's not a bad deal at all. Congrats!

Actually, that was the one I bought. I saw it sold for $180 to first time around, but I guess they didn't pay. Considering the condition my AEK with oranges was , I didn't mind paying a small premium (and taking a risk) for a clean board. It was eventually relisted and I got a much better deal.

A big thanks to E3E and Chyros! Those videos and awesome projects are what really got me down this rabbit hole of Alps.

Oh, I love when that kind of thing happens. Like, when you've got your eyes set on something, but it gets bought, but then you see it reappear because of some issue or another and you get the opportunity to buy it yourself. Yeah, I definitely understand your incentive there. For something that's guaranteed NIB/NOS like that with SKCM Blue, that's is a fantastic price. 
 
Aww, that means a lot! Always happy to help inspire someone; I seldom realize I do, to be honest. The world of Alps is really fun, and I've had a great time collecting the different kinds of switches and amassing a pretty cool collection of vintages. Alps is honestly what made me consider vintage keyboards as IBM Model Ms were never something that sparked with me, and before Alps, I just didn't get the appeal of owning an old keyboard.

Vintages are great though. <3 And getting an obscure board like your own is something I really like. Gives it a unique feel compared to boards people know well or are always after. Hope you've been liking it.

[pr0ximity]

Could you link me the lube you found?

I have been experimenting with this lube, it seems to work reasonably well.

There was a conversation a while back about wet vs. dry lube for Alps. Not to dig up old discussions, but are many people here using wet lubes, specifically on linears? I've been holding off lubing my SKCL Greens because they feel quite smooth after a thorough cleaning with no lube (aside from some wet lube on the springs to prevent ping) but now I'm curious if wet may be the way to go, and I need something to tinker with

Would wet or dry make a difference in terms of contamination in the switches? I suppose wet may have more of a tendency to retain contamination and possible attract it easier?

[chyros]

Could you link me the lube you found?

I have been experimenting with this lube, it seems to work reasonably well.

There was a conversation a while back about wet vs. dry lube for Alps. Not to dig up old discussions, but are many people here using wet lubes, specifically on linears? I've been holding off lubing my SKCL Greens because they feel quite smooth after a thorough cleaning with no lube (aside from some wet lube on the springs to prevent ping) but now I'm curious if wet may be the way to go, and I need something to tinker with

Would wet or dry make a difference in terms of contamination in the switches? I suppose wet may have more of a tendency to retain contamination and possible attract it easier?

The reason people try dry lube on Alps is because the factory lube applied by Alps appears to be a dry one.

[Blaise170]

I was actually disappointed when my like new Japanese AEK with Orange Alps only sold for $70. I thought I'd get more from it considering people buy dirty orange Alps for $50 or more. Oh well. My NIB Japanese AEK II with Cream Damped sold for $100. 

[fohat.digs]

I was actually disappointed when my like new Japanese AEK with Orange Alps only sold for $70.
I thought I'd get more from it

Don't sell at auction. Start at your highest realistic wish price and drop 10% every few days until it sells.

[jbondeson]

There was a conversation a while back about wet vs. dry lube for Alps. Not to dig up old discussions, but are many people here using wet lubes, specifically on linears? I've been holding off lubing my SKCL Greens because they feel quite smooth after a thorough cleaning with no lube (aside from some wet lube on the springs to prevent ping) but now I'm curious if wet may be the way to go, and I need something to tinker with

Would wet or dry make a difference in terms of contamination in the switches? I suppose wet may have more of a tendency to retain contamination and possible attract it easier?

One of the biggest threats to the smooth operation of Alps switches is dust so that's why most of us try and use dry lubricants, since a wet lubricant will hold onto dust.

Now, for an enthusiast I don't know how big a concern it should necessarily be since we're already talking about disassembling the switches to re-lube, so doing it again in 5 years because of dust doesn't seem insurmountable.

[Mattr567]

I... I did a thing.

[alienman82]

removed.

[jerue]

Actually, that was the one I bought. I saw it sold for $180 to first time around, but I guess they didn't pay. Considering the condition my AEK with oranges was , I didn't mind paying a small premium (and taking a risk) for a clean board. It was eventually relisted and I got a much better deal.

A big thanks to E3E and Chyros! Those videos and awesome projects are what really got me down this rabbit hole of Alps.

Would you believe me if I said I paid $60 for that board then was told by the seller it wasn't available  (still mad about that lol)

Congrats on the purchase even if it's horribly yellowed, I should get my hands on some blue alps sometime. Maybe it will live up to my impressions of SKCM browns, which is my favorite of the lot. Even better than greens and oranges!

[emdude]

I... I did a thing.

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Very nice!

[E3E]

Mattr reminded me of my other Duck Eagle that I rarely pull out with the newer version of IBM Multistation caps, the PBT cylindrical variety.

This one uses SKCM Brown, which I do like, but the board is boring to me for some reason. Maybe I just feel it as redundant. It's hotswappable just like the original eagle, so I could thow in whatever switches, but eh.

[E3E]

Repping my Alps love with Shadovv's awesome metal stickers. 

The NCR always had a pretty torn up back sticker, so I figured why not. I should probably take the protective plastic off of the Alps sticker. 

[Mattr567]

Question for everyone, whats your oldest board? Technically mine is my Multistation from 1984 but complete boards mine is my FK-3001 from 1989.

[klennkellon]

Oldest board I own is my AT Model M 1391401 from September of 1987.

The oldest ALPS board is an odd Focus FK-2001 is from 95' made in China. It's kind of an oddity as it used SKCM Whites which is unusual for such a late Focus.