AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]

[jacobolus]

I never understood the point of multiple rows for the thumb clusters. On the ErgoDox I can reach the two big 2x1 keys fine and the two 1x1 side keys okay (mapped as up/down and pg up/down), but I just can't reach the top 1x1 keys. I'm happy with that, but maybe your design is better?

I think this came about via designing on paper and paying attention to mechanical constraints and past precedent but not ever actually trying the design out on real three-dimensional moving hands, or at least not doing nearly enough of that. This seems to be a common problem with keyboard designs from the mid 19th century to the present, so the Ergodox is hardly unique here; frankly this is also a problem with the designs I’ve seen AcidFire make in this thread.

A few people have tried to make more radical improvements. The Japanese had the Tron project and the M-system in the 80s. The Maltron keyboard is pretty fantastic for being from the 1970s. The Apple Adjustable keyboard, followed by the IBM M15, and the Cherry G80-5000, etc. were fairly solid attempts to make ergonomic boards which were easy to use, not intimidating for non-experts, and which didn’t require too much training. The μTRON keyboard is great: if only it weren’t absurdly expensive and designed for tiny Japanese hands.

For programmability, and as a community project, the Ergodox project is a great success. As an ergonomic design, I find it uninspiring. (And this Nexus/Axios/whatever looks to be fairly similar on both fronts.)

Before anyone designs a new keyboard layout, with ergonomics as a goal, they should start by doing their homework: actually studying past designs, learning about human hand anatomy, reading the ergonomics literature, talking to professional scholars in the field, and making dozens of prototypes and then testing them on people with various hand shapes. Unfortunately, doing this work is hard, so basically no one does it.

* * *

Edit: I’m not just trying to be a ****. I think there’s a lot of great ideas here: modularity, open hackable ARM firmware, a few of the specific design elements, several of the hardware decisions, current goals w/r/t pricing (I bet this is harder than it initially seems though), etc.

[eviltobz]

on the ergonomics front though, as you hinted at, everyone is different, so you probably can't reasonably make one board that's perfect for everyone from the biggest person with giant hands down to little kids and everyone inbetween, so designers need to pick some target audience which, more likely than not (and doubly so for a non-commercial enterprise), will centre on their requirements. that's before even considering stuff like standard keycap sizes as a limiting factor for any reasonably priced project (big shout out to olddatahands and his datahand project here).

i suppose i have fairly large hands, so in the case of the ergodox i find it odd to hear people complain about the stretch to the first thumb key being a bit too far. on both my dox & kinesis i home my thumbs on the second thumb key quite comfortably - it just seemed like the obvious place for my thumbs to go so i have other keys to either side, rather than a big stretch over a key. i do like the extra curveyness of the kinesis over the dox, but not so much that it's a problem - both are still infinitely better than a plain old plank keyboard and the axios' thumbcluster angle may help on this front too. (and of course i love the programmability of the dox over the kinesis.) point being - it works well for me

[QuadGMoto]

F-keys on the ErgoDox work fine: make what would be the number keys f-keys (in two blocks of six). Use a modifier key to turn the right half into a numpad for the numbers.

It's that whole fn+ to do a function key that's a problem. It can be fine by itself, though not quite as good as simply tapping one when you need it, but when you start layering on modifiers it get out of hand really darn quick. Part of the whole point of them is quick single key hits instead of complicated combinations.

Didn't like the TECK personally: too few thumb keys and the halves not angled enough.

Yeah, I agree with those complaints. It's a compromise to give me the lighter mechanical switches with at least some ergonomics to carry me to the completion of the Axios. And it has real F-keys.

[Glod]

F-keys on the ErgoDox work fine: make what would be the number keys f-keys (in two blocks of six). Use a modifier key to turn the right half into a numpad for the numbers.

It's that whole fn+ to do a function key that's a problem. It can be fine by itself, though not quite as good as simply tapping one when you need it, but when you start layering on modifiers it get out of hand really darn quick. Part of the whole point of them is quick single key hits instead of complicated combinations.

not wanting to derail this thread but you CAN have dedicated F keys on the ergodox see this layout i use
see http://almightyglod.com/public_stack/Glod_ErgoDox_Layout_March_2014.png
i also wanted to have f keys instead of FN+#, plus it makes the layout keycap friendly

not saying there are not things wrong with the ergodox, i have been interested in this project since the beginning, just the last two arguments about the tenting and f keys on the ergodox is false, you can tent the ergodox and have dedicated f keys.

[AcidFire]

I never understood the point of multiple rows for the thumb clusters. On the ErgoDox I can reach the two big 2x1 keys fine and the two 1x1 side keys okay (mapped as up/down and pg up/down), but I just can't reach the top 1x1 keys. I'm happy with that, but maybe your design is better?

I think this came about via designing on paper and paying attention to mechanical constraints and past precedent but not ever actually trying the design out on real three-dimensional moving hands, or at least not doing nearly enough of that. This seems to be a common problem with keyboard designs from the mid 19th century to the present, so the Ergodox is hardly unique here; frankly this is also a problem with the designs I’ve seen AcidFire make in this thread.

A few people have tried to make more radical improvements. The Japanese had the Tron project and the M-system in the 80s. The Maltron keyboard is pretty fantastic for being from the 1970s. The Apple Adjustable keyboard, followed by the IBM M15, and the Cherry G80-5000, etc. were fairly solid attempts to make ergonomic boards which were easy to use, not intimidating for non-experts, and which didn’t require too much training. The μTRON keyboard is great: if only it weren’t absurdly expensive and designed for tiny Japanese hands.

For programmability, and as a community project, the Ergodox project is a great success. As an ergonomic design, I find it uninspiring. (And this Nexus/Axios/whatever looks to be fairly similar on both fronts.)

Before anyone designs a new keyboard layout, with ergonomics as a goal, they should start by doing their homework: actually studying past designs, learning about human hand anatomy, reading the ergonomics literature, talking to professional scholars in the field, and making dozens of prototypes and then testing them on people with various hand shapes. Unfortunately, doing this work is hard, so basically no one does it.

* * *

Edit: I’m not just trying to be a ****. I think there’s a lot of great ideas here: modularity, open hackable ARM firmware, a few of the specific design elements, several of the hardware decisions, current goals w/r/t pricing (I bet this is harder than it initially seems though), etc.

I'm hoping that this doesn't come across as overly defensive given that this is my project but I'll preface this with a preemptive apology just in case; I'm sorry if this comes across as ****ish myself.

I have to admit that some of these comments bothered me quite a bit, considering I have put a substantial amount of time into trying to strike a balance between ergonomics & cost. The first boards I designed were done specifically for my hands, and when a couple of the girls here as well as my own fiancee expressed concerns (and rightly so) about sizing & comfort I ended up completely retooling the boards. I went through atleast a dozen prototypes (most of which I didn't bother to share because well, they were just minor tweaks) trying to find the right balance for small & large hands and ended up with several boxes of acrylic in my office that look like this:


And this was before I had even begun to look seriously at the electronics. Eventually I decided that the thumb cluster wasn't quite right for a couple of reasons;
1) Your thumb curls inward, not down. It would be pointless to do all the work adjusting for the fingers if the thumb wasn't moving in the optimum motion either, hence the dropped angle not only putting it at a natural resting position but also allowing it to curl in.
2) Adjustability, both for hand size and positioning. This has allowed someone with tiny hands to rest as naturally on the board as my own sizable mitts.

This even breaks down in the heights of the staggered columns. On both the ergodox, the little and index columns didn't sit at enough of a height difference I found, and it took a bit of tweaking to find a height that was more comfortable not only to me, but others as well. Another major difference I haven't shared yet (mostly because I'm still sculpting) is a proper contoured rest designed to better support the hands. Unfortunately this is one of the few parts that can only have so much adjustment and would need to be swapped out for different hand sizes, but it is definitely something I'm working towards.

I'll be the first one to admit that a flat shape isn't the end-all-be-all of ergonomics, something closer to the kinesis/maltron is more the ideal shape however there are a few problems with them (not ergonomically):
1) They're intimidating as hell. Even though they're following the same basic layout as mine & the ergodox, the size and shape of them make them far more scary looking to the uninitiated than they ought to be.
2) Compared to a flat design, they're expensive to produce. You either have to curve the pcb (kinesis) or wire from switch to switch (maltron), neither of which is cheap to do in volume. They also require custom keycaps, adding to the expense.

That first point is extremely important as I discovered last weekend in discussions with the general public. Even my own boards can look intimidating until you show someone that the layout is actually the same as a standard keyboard (atleast in terms of where keys sit), but positioned in a more natural resting state.

As I mentioned, I've been working towards something that balances ergonomics & cost. It's possible its just the Canadian socialist in me, but I'm tired of anything regarding my health being expensive. I'd be very much interested to hear what it is that stands out for you on the design that seems like it needs to be tweaked or is uninspiring.

F-keys on the ErgoDox work fine: make what would be the number keys f-keys (in two blocks of six). Use a modifier key to turn the right half into a numpad for the numbers.

It's that whole fn+ to do a function key that's a problem. It can be fine by itself, though not quite as good as simply tapping one when you need it, but when you start layering on modifiers it get out of hand really darn quick. Part of the whole point of them is quick single key hits instead of complicated combinations.

Didn't like the TECK personally: too few thumb keys and the halves not angled enough.

Yeah, I agree with those complaints. It's a compromise to give me the lighter mechanical switches with at least some ergonomics to carry me to the completion of the Axios. And it has real F-keys.

I want to make sure I'm clear about it, the flat straight/ergo split designs currently don't include space for F keys, only the split tent (I really need proper names for these designs) have the extra space for dedicated keys. Otherwise, there are enough keys in the middle of the flat designs to actually set them as dedicated F keys. If I do a dedicated desktop version (remember these designs were intended more for travel) I will include these F rows as dedicated keys.

F-keys on the ErgoDox work fine: make what would be the number keys f-keys (in two blocks of six). Use a modifier key to turn the right half into a numpad for the numbers.

It's that whole fn+ to do a function key that's a problem. It can be fine by itself, though not quite as good as simply tapping one when you need it, but when you start layering on modifiers it get out of hand really darn quick. Part of the whole point of them is quick single key hits instead of complicated combinations.

not wanting to derail this thread but you CAN have dedicated F keys on the ergodox see this layout i use
see http://almightyglod.com/public_stack/Glod_ErgoDox_Layout_March_2014.png
i also wanted to have f keys instead of FN+#, plus it makes the layout keycap friendly

not saying there are not things wrong with the ergodox, i have been interested in this project since the beginning, just the last two arguments about the tenting and f keys on the ergodox is false, you can tent the ergodox and have dedicated f keys.

Not derailing this thread at all, considering a large number of us are programmers/developers I think it's a very valid concern to address & discuss.

[hoggy]

If you try to please everyone here, you'll end up pleasing no one. The hard part is knowing what well meaning advice to ignore, or at least to give less weight to.

You have your own design in mind, I'd say see that one through, and if enough people demand some changes, then build another model for them.

[jacobolus]

And this was before I had even begun to look seriously at the electronics. Eventually I decided that the thumb cluster wasn't quite right for a couple of reasons;
1) Your thumb curls inward, not down. It would be pointless to do all the work adjusting for the fingers if the thumb wasn't moving in the optimum motion either, hence the dropped angle not only putting it at a natural resting position but also allowing it to curl in.

Well this is kind of what I mean, and why I say that someone designing a new keyboard should spend some time studying hand anatomy and talking to ergonomics experts. (I’m also not an anatomist or ergonomist or expert: I’ve read some books aimed at laymen and I’ve spent a bunch of time closely inspecting my hand motions, but someone who is e.g. a skilled musical instrument teacher, or a physical therapist, or a professional ergonomics researcher, or a surgeon, etc., will surely have more insight than I do.)

Inre thumb motion: try it! There are 3 joints in the thumb, 2 of which are the main drivers for orienting the thumb relative to a key and pressing it. The distal one of these, the metacarpophalangeal joint, just rotates in one dimension. The proximal one, the carpometacarpal joint, is quite a sophisticated joint, with a bunch of ligagments attached to it, and can move in all kinds of tricky ways, including curling inward [“flexion”/“extension”] (this is aided by the metacarpophalangeal joint usually), and moving up/down [“abduction”/“adduction”], etc. I’m sure this article would be a more useful guide than any summary I can give http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jor.1100100319/abstract (seems to be the most cited one on google scholar) or there are surely some others that aren’t paywalled.

A standard keyboard, as well as the ergodox, kinesis, maltron rely mainly on the main direction of carpometacarpal movement. Of these, I haven’t tried a Maltron, but in making prototypes of my own with plastilina and cardboard, and from just holding loose switches in one hand with the other hand sitting in a neutral position and trying to press them, I believe that the Maltron has the best angle for taking advantage of the natural direction of motion for the strongest type of thumb motion. The Kinesis Advantage is in my opinion is a less effective angle, and the ergodox has a still less effective angle.

Oobly’s DIY keyboard, for example, relies on a different, inward movement of the carpometacarpal, plus an assist from the metacarpophalangeal joint. This is in my experience a less easy/powerful joint movement, but he gets away with it by having all the keys very easy to reach, which more than makes up the difference compared to the poor placement of Ergodox thumb keys.

Figuring out the proper height and direction for the thumb to move though, such that (a) the motion takes as little effort as possible using the biggest muscles and aligning with the movement as closely as possible, and (b) reaching all the keys is easy and natural is a quite non-trivial problem. And figuring out something that will work for very large or very small hands is difficult indeed.

2) Adjustability, both for hand size and positioning. This has allowed someone with tiny hands to rest as naturally on the board as my own sizable mitts.

Adjustability is great! Ideally every position and angle could be adjusted, as well as keycap sizes, key spacing, etc. Figuring out just what can be reasonably adjusted and which problems that solves for which hands is pretty tricky. Hopefully the adjustment is both easy and sufficient to match a big range of hands.

On both the ergodox, the little and index columns didn't sit at enough of a height difference I found, and it took a bit of tweaking to find a height that was more comfortable not only to me, but others as well.

Agreed. I find that if the index finger and ring finger keys are level, then the middle finger can use about half a key of stagger, upwards, and the pinky can use at least half a key of stagger, downward. But note, on a standard keyboard, often the best finger to use for a key is not the same as the one advocated by typing teachers / learning materials. As a result, many people have non-standard ways of moving their hands and type keys with other than the recommended fingers. Sometimes people even use different hands to type the 6, Y, or B keys (in QWERTY) depending on which word is being typed. When moving to a matrix or column stagger layout instead, those inconsistencies are going to require a few weeks of getting used to the new layout (maybe sped up by some clever custom character mapping). Even on a column staggered board though, it may not always be ideal to use a separate finger for all the keys in each column (e.g. the pinkies are not going to be easily able to reach up to a number row, so those keys are probably going to be pressed by the ring finger anyway.), which may have some bearing on how much stagger is ideal, depending on how many rows and columns of keys are included.

[EvillePanda]

As someone with tiny hands (the distance from the tip of my middle finger to the bottom of my palm is just under 6 inches), I appreciate you taking hand size into account.  It's very painful to have to reach keys on some layouts, though columnar layouts solve a lot of it.

And as for making everybody happy?  You can please all of the people some of the time and some of the people all the time, but you can't please everybody all the time.

[clickclack123]

i suppose i have fairly large hands, so in the case of the ergodox i find it odd to hear people complain about the stretch to the first thumb key being a bit too far. on both my dox & kinesis i home my thumbs on the second thumb key quite comfortably - it just seemed like the obvious place for my thumbs to go so i have other keys to either side, rather than a big stretch over a key.

I have average to large hands, and I find that my thumb naturally falls right between the two large thumb keys on the Ergodox.

Figuring out the proper height and direction for the thumb to move though, such that (a) the motion takes as little effort as possible using the biggest muscles and aligning with the movement as closely as possible,

You seem to have given this a lot of thought, but I wonder whether it is always better to use the largest muscles? I would think that it would be the extremities that you would want to use. Like just the end of the thumb. That way you don't need to move anything but the last joint. Surely just moving the last joint is easier than moving the whole thumb.

F-keys on the ErgoDox work fine: make what would be the number keys f-keys (in two blocks of six). Use a modifier key to turn the right half into a numpad for the numbers.

It's that whole fn+ to do a function key that's a problem. It can be fine by itself, though not quite as good as simply tapping one when you need it, but when you start layering on modifiers it get out of hand really darn quick. Part of the whole point of them is quick single key hits instead of complicated combinations.

Didn't like the TECK personally: too few thumb keys and the halves not angled enough.

Yeah, I agree with those complaints. It's a compromise to give me the lighter mechanical switches with at least some ergonomics to carry me to the completion of the Axios. And it has real F-keys.

I'd much rather use a modifier and number keys than have to move my whole hand to get to a function key row. Also I personally find it hard to touchtype function keys when they are so far from the home row. And even worse when they have a different spacing to the rest of the keyboard. I defy anyone to successfully touchtype all the function keys without looking when they are in a layout like the Truly Ergonomic.

Before anyone designs a new keyboard layout, with ergonomics as a goal, they should start by doing their homework: actually studying past designs, learning about human hand anatomy, reading the ergonomics literature, talking to professional scholars in the field, and making dozens of prototypes and then testing them on people with various hand shapes. Unfortunately, doing this work is hard, so basically no one does it.

* * *

Edit: I’m not just trying to be a ****. I think there’s a lot of great ideas here: modularity, open hackable ARM firmware, a few of the specific design elements, several of the hardware decisions, current goals w/r/t pricing (I bet this is harder than it initially seems though), etc.

Also not trying to be a ****, but I would love to see a design from yourself.

I've thought about it a bit, but it's hard to design something that is easily manufacturable and still ergonomic. I think the Ergodox has done a great job but I'd love to see something with the thumbs lowered and tilted.

I don't care too much about price, a great ergonomic keyboard would be worth a lot to me... With the amount of time I spend on the computer, it's worth it.

[AcidFire]

Getting away from super serious business for a second, been having fun figuring out what I'm doing with the new keys I ordered from SP today:

[linziyi]

Had you by any chance announced the list of beta testers yet?

[tups]

F-keys on the ErgoDox work fine: make what would be the number keys f-keys (in two blocks of six). Use a modifier key to turn the right half into a numpad for the numbers.

It's that whole fn+ to do a function key that's a problem. It can be fine by itself, though not quite as good as simply tapping one when you need it, but when you start layering on modifiers it get out of hand really darn quick. Part of the whole point of them is quick single key hits instead of complicated combinations.

I'd much rather use a modifier and number keys than have to move my whole hand to get to a function key row. Also I personally find it hard to touchtype function keys when they are so far from the home row. And even worse when they have a different spacing to the rest of the keyboard. I defy anyone to successfully touchtype all the function keys without looking when they are in a layout like the Truly Ergonomic.

Apparently most people didn't get my point: setting the primary action of the top row to be F-keys works great on the Dox. I can half-way touch-type these, and also, I can finally touch-type numbers by turning the right side into a num-pad when holding a modifier with the thumb. I would recommend it for programmers and other Axios users wanting F-keys, the only problem is how to get the symbols normally on the number keys (my solution).

Nice layouts AcidFire. Now someone needs to come up with new standard locations for -, =, `, \ etc. Especially like that it should be easier to touch-type the bottom row than the ErgoDox (having a small gap is a good idea).

[QuadGMoto]

Apparently most people didn't get my point: setting the primary action of the top row to be F-keys works great on the Dox. I can half-way touch-type these, and also, I can finally touch-type numbers by turning the right side into a num-pad when holding a modifier with the thumb. I would recommend it for programmers and other Axios users wanting F-keys, the only problem is how to get the symbols normally on the number keys (my solution).

I get it. I just don't want to work that way. I don't touch type F-keys. I'm fine with moving my hands from the home row to use them, and I actually prefer it that way. I'm already suffering a bit from shortcut overload and I don't want to add to it.

BTW, when I set up the Axios, I'm planning to use a modified form of Programmer Dvorak, where the symbols are the default and the shift key has to be used for the numbers. Or I'll just use the numeric keypad for more than one or two digits.

[Loligagger]

Getting away from super serious business for a second, been having fun figuring out what I'm doing with the new keys I ordered from SP today:

Show Image

That bottom row on the main cluster looks perfect for arrow keys. Are you planning on having the regular bottom row as an option too? Also will the thumb cluster board still support various layouts as well (like what's shown in the OP)?

[ryanlee0203]

May I ask prototype array Source Code or Gerber File?

I wanna make that protype myself cuz can't wait the final product

Plz sir AcidFire could u provide me a prototype source or gerber? pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeas (

[BlueByLiquid]

Getting away from super serious business for a second, been having fun figuring out what I'm doing with the new keys I ordered from SP today:

Show Image

If we just had RGB theirs no need to mess with different colors. We can have them ALL! :)  :0) :) :) :)

[obra]

Awesome stuff. A lot of what you're doing and contemplating is similar to what we're doing with our first keyboard.io model, but different enough that I suspect we'll be appealing to slightly different bits of the market.

I'd love to compare notes some time.

-jesse

[AcidFire]

Had you by any chance announced the list of beta testers yet?

I haven't yet as I'm currently making some decisions on what I'll be releasing for the beta, which affects the people selected for it. Once I know, you guys will.

Getting away from super serious business for a second, been having fun figuring out what I'm doing with the new keys I ordered from SP today:

Show Image

If we just had RGB theirs no need to mess with different colors. We can have them ALL! :)  :0) :) :) :)

One can dream :D I do have a design thats semi workable right now that while needing tweaking should work nicely for those switches.

May I ask prototype array Source Code or Gerber File?

I wanna make that protype myself cuz can't wait the final product :(

Plz sir AcidFire could u provide me a prototype source or gerber? pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeas :((

Unfortunately the current design files have some functionality issues and I haven't finished the latest revision :(

Awesome stuff. A lot of what you're doing and contemplating is similar to what we're doing with our first keyboard.io model, but different enough that I suspect we'll be appealing to slightly different bits of the market.

I'd love to compare notes some time.

-jesse

Absolutely. A lot of your earlier hand wired prototypes are what inspired me to look at rolling my own solution rather than stick with the existing designs like the edox. I'll be down in San Mateo for the Bay Area maker faire in may, maybe we can catch up there :D

[obra]

Absolutely. A lot of your earlier hand wired prototypes are what inspired me to look at rolling my own solution rather than stick with the existing designs like the edox. I'll be down in San Mateo for the Bay Area maker faire in may, maybe we can catch up there

That'd totally work. We're going to be in Shenzhen for the two weeks before maker faire, but I think we get back the Saturday. If you're coming through SF, you'd be welcome to come hang out at Highway1 (The incubator space we're in)

I'll admit to having not been following your stuff in detail. I've been super nose-down for the past couple months. But I'm starting to get a handle on sourcing keyswitches, RGB LEDs, pcbs and am starting to look into interesting enclosures, custom keycaps and bluetooth modules.

One of the things we're playing with is a custom logic board & standardized footprint & header placement optimized for building open keyboards. But this stuff probably belongs in its own thread.

[clickclack123]

One of the things we're playing with is a custom logic board & standardized footprint & header placement optimized for building open keyboards. But this stuff probably belongs in its own thread.

That's a great idea, would make it much easier to combine open stuff together. Maybe just a pin header, something like an ICSP header?

[kaltar]

As I mentioned, I've been working towards something that balances ergonomics & cost. It's possible its just the Canadian socialist in me, but I'm tired of anything regarding my health being expensive. I'd be very much interested to hear what it is that stands out for you on the design that seems like it needs to be tweaked or is uninspiring.

Well, does your health has a cost? You are designing a comfort. It should be as comfortable as your budget allows it.  Its going to be expensive cause very few people will venture into getting the project (unless you make a massive sale and the prices go as low as possible, for like 1000 units).

I love the ergodox project, however, is not as ergonomic as the Kinesis Advantage. PERIOD. The kinesis is far from perfect, but as you said, the curve on the keypad is just an outstanding feature that really follows ergonomics. I totally agree with you on the thumb buttons, the alternative would be something like this, but with lateral buttons. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/70308014/kings-assembly-a-computer-mouse-full-of-awesome

It's your project and everyone will try to suggest ideas. All the rest, can't wait to get our hands on whatever you end up designing. And we will support the project because it is just looking good, and you show you care about ergonomics.

I personally would pay $500 bucks for a better ergonomic keyboard. My hands and pain are worth it.

[AcidFire]

As I mentioned, I've been working towards something that balances ergonomics & cost. It's possible its just the Canadian socialist in me, but I'm tired of anything regarding my health being expensive. I'd be very much interested to hear what it is that stands out for you on the design that seems like it needs to be tweaked or is uninspiring.

Well, does your health has a cost? You are designing a comfort. It should be as comfortable as your budget allows it.  Its going to be expensive cause very few people will venture into getting the project (unless you make a massive sale and the prices go as low as possible, for like 1000 units).

I love the ergodox project, however, is not as ergonomic as the Kinesis Advantage. PERIOD. The kinesis is far from perfect, but as you said, the curve on the keypad is just an outstanding feature that really follows ergonomics. I totally agree with you on the thumb buttons, the alternative would be something like this, but with lateral buttons. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/70308014/kings-assembly-a-computer-mouse-full-of-awesome

It's your project and everyone will try to suggest ideas. All the rest, can't wait to get our hands on whatever you end up designing. And we will support the project because it is just looking good, and you show you care about ergonomics.

I personally would pay $500 bucks for a better ergonomic keyboard. My hands and pain are worth it.

Without giving too much away at this point, the bowled design is not out of the question. However there is much more to get right (and to have to do custom) and a good amount of funding is required for that, hence getting this first stuff out.

[obra]

One of the things we're playing with is a custom logic board & standardized footprint & header placement optimized for building open keyboards. But this stuff probably belongs in its own thread.

That's a great idea, would make it much easier to combine open stuff together. Maybe just a pin header, something like an ICSP header?

*nod*
We're still trying to figure out what makes the most sense.

[conandy]

F-keys on the ErgoDox work fine: make what would be the number keys f-keys (in two blocks of six). Use a modifier key to turn the right half into a numpad for the numbers.

It's that whole fn+ to do a function key that's a problem. It can be fine by itself, though not quite as good as simply tapping one when you need it, but when you start layering on modifiers it get out of hand really darn quick. Part of the whole point of them is quick single key hits instead of complicated combinations.

Didn't like the TECK personally: too few thumb keys and the halves not angled enough.

Yeah, I agree with those complaints. It's a compromise to give me the lighter mechanical switches with at least some ergonomics to carry me to the completion of the Axios. And it has real F-keys.

Have to admit as a CAD user and gamer that the F-keys are a must, in my opinion.  The Fn+ to get to the function key layer may be workable with practice, though, at least for CAD use.  I too have gone with a TECK for the time being since I got a great deal used on eBay.  The F-keys are in no-way touch-typeable on the TECK, but at least they are all on the keyboard.  For CAD and for gaming, the idea is to do as much as possible with only the left hand on the keyboard and keeping the right hand on the mouse.   The ergonomic decisions here are definitely different than for you programmers who try to keep both hands on the keyboard most of the time and use the mouse as little as possible.  That is also an ergonomic way of working, it is just a different application. 

Unfortunately, one solution doesn't necessarily fit all.  That is why I would actually be happy if the F-keys were an add-on board, something like the x-keys sticks (http://xkeys.com/xkeys/xk8.php) could actually work in lieu of them built into the keyboard.  Just wish x-keys had a 2-rows x 6 keys option to make the standard 12 F-keys on a normal keyboard all accessible to the left hand.  I'd just stick it to the top of the left hand keyboard and be happy as a clam.  Probably would tilt it up a bit, too.   

The TECK is a compromise at the moment, and I agree with other sentiments on the angle between hands not being enough and the lack of a thumb cluster.  I'm holding out for that Axios!  Had to grit my teeth to let this most recent Ergodox Massdrop pass me by. 

[clickclack123]

Have to admit as a CAD user and gamer that the F-keys are a must, in my opinion.  The Fn+ to get to the function key layer may be workable with practice, though, at least for CAD use.  I too have gone with a TECK for the time being since I got a great deal used on eBay.  The F-keys are in no-way touch-typeable on the TECK, but at least they are all on the keyboard.  For CAD and for gaming, the idea is to do as much as possible with only the left hand on the keyboard and keeping the right hand on the mouse.   The ergonomic decisions here are definitely different than for you programmers who try to keep both hands on the keyboard most of the time and use the mouse as little as possible.  That is also an ergonomic way of working, it is just a different application. 

Have you thought about one of those MMO mice with a million thumb buttons as Fkeys?

[conandy]

Have to admit as a CAD user and gamer that the F-keys are a must, in my opinion.  The Fn+ to get to the function key layer may be workable with practice, though, at least for CAD use.  I too have gone with a TECK for the time being since I got a great deal used on eBay.  The F-keys are in no-way touch-typeable on the TECK, but at least they are all on the keyboard.  For CAD and for gaming, the idea is to do as much as possible with only the left hand on the keyboard and keeping the right hand on the mouse.   The ergonomic decisions here are definitely different than for you programmers who try to keep both hands on the keyboard most of the time and use the mouse as little as possible.  That is also an ergonomic way of working, it is just a different application. 

Have you thought about one of those MMO mice with a million thumb buttons as Fkeys?

(Attachment Link)

Have a Logitech G700, which is OK.  Haven't tried the g600 or the other similar ones with lots of buttons.  I think I'd have a hard time using all those thumb buttons.  I have found that the sidemounted thumb buttons tend to make the mouse move when pressed, and that annoys the crap out of me.  Also, my thumb tends to rest behind the center of the buttons (closer to me) and it is hard for me to hit them all  without moving my hand on the mouse.   I do use the 3 top left buttons on the G700 quite a bit, though.  More easily reachable index finger buttons on a mouse would be great.  Have thought about that as a project as well. 
 

[BlueByLiquid]

As I mentioned, I've been working towards something that balances ergonomics & cost. It's possible its just the Canadian socialist in me, but I'm tired of anything regarding my health being expensive. I'd be very much interested to hear what it is that stands out for you on the design that seems like it needs to be tweaked or is uninspiring.

Well, does your health has a cost? You are designing a comfort. It should be as comfortable as your budget allows it.  Its going to be expensive cause very few people will venture into getting the project (unless you make a massive sale and the prices go as low as possible, for like 1000 units).

I love the ergodox project, however, is not as ergonomic as the Kinesis Advantage. PERIOD. The kinesis is far from perfect, but as you said, the curve on the keypad is just an outstanding feature that really follows ergonomics. I totally agree with you on the thumb buttons, the alternative would be something like this, but with lateral buttons. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/70308014/kings-assembly-a-computer-mouse-full-of-awesome

It's your project and everyone will try to suggest ideas. All the rest, can't wait to get our hands on whatever you end up designing. And we will support the project because it is just looking good, and you show you care about ergonomics.

I personally would pay $500 bucks for a better ergonomic keyboard. My hands and pain are worth it.

Without giving too much away at this point, the bowled design is not out of the question. However there is much more to get right (and to have to do custom) and a good amount of funding is required for that, hence getting this first stuff out.

No way! I love the bowl/kenesis design! I had some ideas about how to make a printable design with little single key pcbs so you could make it your own height but it turned a bit crazy because you had to make so many different pieces. It turn out I was going to have to 3d print it to handle them all. Not out of the question but that's where I stopped. Would love to see a bowl design that you can adjust to your hand shape (I mean once not continuos adjustment) I have some other ideas but not any I have the time to implement.

[spspencer]

Hey Acidfire, love your work. I think your modular mindset is the way to go, as you will never be able to please everyone with one board. I don't even think you should try. My personal favorite is the ergodox'ish tented design with the thumb cluster tilted down. 

As I understand it, both the thumb cluster and the main cluster can be removed/interchanged, correct? Comparing router.exe's photo (reply #1119) with your photo (reply #1121), it looks like you took half of the flat keyboard and stuck it into the tented one. If so, that's sweet!

I've been using the Ergodox for awhile now, and I love it, but I'm using it flat. I'd rather have it tented, with the thumb cluster down, much like your design. I think this is as good as it gets for a "mass produced" design.

[ryanlee0203]

Hey Acidfire, love your work. I think your modular mindset is the way to go, as you will never be able to please everyone with one board. I don't even think you should try. My personal favorite is the ergodox'ish tented design with the thumb cluster tilted down. 

As I understand it, both the thumb cluster and the main cluster can be removed/interchanged, correct? Comparing router.exe's photo (reply #1119) with your photo (reply #1121), it looks like you took half of the flat keyboard and stuck it into the tented one. If so, that's sweet!

I've been using the Ergodox for awhile now, and I love it, but I'm using it flat. I'd rather have it tented, with the thumb cluster down, much like your design. I think this is as good as it gets for a "mass produced" design.

Here's an assenter for him.

totally agree with his idea. no need to satisfact whole people, but it need to be more evolved.

more function keys with tilting thumb cluster keyboard? how much it is? I'll buy 3 of 'em give me that.

[eviltobz]

acidfire, have you thought about getting a simple screen on there instead of just some old school leds?

the typical plank has caps-lock (marginally useful), num-lock (does anyone ever want this turned off) and scroll lock (so arcane that i dunno why they even bothered to include it in the usb keyboard spec). With my dox i currently have 3 main layers to switch between as a base (colemak osx, colemak windows, and stupid mode (qwerty windows)) then I have momentary layer for numpad/f-keys/media-keys and another for coding-symbols/handy-vim-cursor-when-in-colemak and a cunning multipress momentary layer for admin mode to change the base layer or reprogram the teensy.  even with hacking the source code to use the leds for sommat more useful they're still woefully inadequate - having it flashing morse code to tell me the different active layers just aint good enough

last saturday was international arduino day, and at my local hackspace i got a bunch of bits and some workshop tutorial action. getting a bit more advanced than what i did there, it seems that a shift register will let you control at least a 16x2 character lcd with just 3 pins. and the dox has 3 pins dedicated to its leds. dunno what your circuits are looking like, but that seems like fate to me

[AcidFire]

Hey Acidfire, love your work. I think your modular mindset is the way to go, as you will never be able to please everyone with one board. I don't even think you should try. My personal favorite is the ergodox'ish tented design with the thumb cluster tilted down. 

As I understand it, both the thumb cluster and the main cluster can be removed/interchanged, correct? Comparing router.exe's photo (reply #1119) with your photo (reply #1121), it looks like you took half of the flat keyboard and stuck it into the tented one. If so, that's sweet!

I've been using the Ergodox for awhile now, and I love it, but I'm using it flat. I'd rather have it tented, with the thumb cluster down, much like your design. I think this is as good as it gets for a "mass produced" design.

Here's an assenter for him.

totally agree with his idea. no need to satisfact whole people, but it need to be more evolved.

more function keys with tilting thumb cluster keyboard? how much it is? I'll buy 3 of 'em give me that.

Yup, that was the main reasoning behind the modularity, the other being the cost savings of not having 3-4 different custom large PCBs. By going with smaller designs I can produce in larger numbers to offer more designs, I get them cheaper, which lets me keep prices lower on what I'm offering. It also means that if you buy a travel size board, and decide you want a split tented version, you'll only need to buy the case+thumb clusters instead of needing to buy a whole new set.

acidfire, have you thought about getting a simple screen on there instead of just some old school leds?

the typical plank has caps-lock (marginally useful), num-lock (does anyone ever want this turned off) and scroll lock (so arcane that i dunno why they even bothered to include it in the usb keyboard spec). With my dox i currently have 3 main layers to switch between as a base (colemak osx, colemak windows, and stupid mode (qwerty windows)) then I have momentary layer for numpad/f-keys/media-keys and another for coding-symbols/handy-vim-cursor-when-in-colemak and a cunning multipress momentary layer for admin mode to change the base layer or reprogram the teensy.  even with hacking the source code to use the leds for sommat more useful they're still woefully inadequate - having it flashing morse code to tell me the different active layers just aint good enough

last saturday was international arduino day, and at my local hackspace i got a bunch of bits and some workshop tutorial action. getting a bit more advanced than what i did there, it seems that a shift register will let you control at least a 16x2 character lcd with just 3 pins. and the dox has 3 pins dedicated to its leds. dunno what your circuits are looking like, but that seems like fate to me

there is a... disturbing number of LCDs in a box on my bench. As I mentioned previously, I'm looking at the LCD/OLED/e-ink display option though it definitely won't be priority to start. And with the high speed i2c bus on board, I only need 2 wires. not 3 The other side of it of course is figuring out how best to integrate it into the boards as an addon.

[router.exe]

Getting away from super serious business for a second, been having fun figuring out what I'm doing with the new keys I ordered from SP today:

Show Image

after our talk at maker faire, this definitely helps me see how i could further reduce hand pain and get me to switch away from a TECK.

[eviltobz]

...screens n stuff...

...e-ink display option...

ooooooooh that sound extra cool. my limited delve into such things hasn't taken me into e-ink land, so i didn't even think of that as an option.

[AcidFire]

Just thought I'd pop on for a bit of an update.

I'm currently working with Crowd Supply to dial in the budget for the crowd funding campaign. There's an end goal to where we'd like to see the budget launch at and right now I'm tuning the numbers in to get there. What does that mean going forward?

1) The Split/Straight travel designs will not be part of the base funding goal, however they will be the first stretch goals. What those goals will be will come down to the mold quotes I get back.

2) As much as I'd love to, the minimums for Greens, Reds & Browns would tack on up to $65K to the base funding goal. I'll be watching the total for switches as the campaign is being funded, and the second I hit the numbers I need I'll be adding them. This includes the bags of switches I was originally hoping to offer as a pledge level, as well as a few other pledges I'm keeping close to my chest for now.

There is, however some good news as part of this:

3) To compensate for the (initial) lack of travel cases, I'm currently working into the split design the ability to use either the arm which allows for adjustability & depth for desktop use, or a flat plate that makes it more travel friendly. Both will be included in the box so that you don't have to choose.

4) I'm currently reviewing the costs, but I'm looking to mold the cases & rests out of PBT instead of ABS. No shine!

As for a timeline, I'm currently targeting to launch the Crowd Supply campaign on May 16th (unless something comes up before then).

[BlueByLiquid]

2) As much as I'd love to, the minimums for Greens, Reds & Browns would tack on up to $65K to the base funding goal. I'll be watching the total for switches as the campaign is being funded, and the second I hit the numbers I need I'll be adding them. This includes the bags of switches I was originally hoping to offer as a pledge level, as well as a few other pledges I'm keeping close to my chest for now.

SO I'm confused as to which switches you will be using, or are you saying you won't be providing ANY switches until you hit the amount needed for them? Or are you saying that there is something different about the minimums for greens, reds and browns than other choices like blue, blacks, clears, etc and you will be offering the later switches?

As for a timeline, I'm currently targeting to launch the Crowd Supply campaign on May 16th (unless something comes up before then).

Is the beta going to happen before this time?

Thanks for the update!

[AcidFire]

2) As much as I'd love to, the minimums for Greens, Reds & Browns would tack on up to $65K to the base funding goal. I'll be watching the total for switches as the campaign is being funded, and the second I hit the numbers I need I'll be adding them. This includes the bags of switches I was originally hoping to offer as a pledge level, as well as a few other pledges I'm keeping close to my chest for now.

SO I'm confused as to which switches you will be using, or are you saying you won't be providing ANY switches until you hit the amount needed for them? Or are you saying that there is something different about the minimums for greens, reds and browns than other choices like blue, blacks, clears, etc and you will be offering the later switches?

As for a timeline, I'm currently targeting to launch the Crowd Supply campaign on May 16th (unless something comes up before then).

Is the beta going to happen before this time?

Thanks for the update!

Basically, what that means is that I'll be offering the boards with blues, clears & blacks to start. When I have enough funding that I could add browns, reds and greens to the line up you better believe I will.

The plan right now is still to run the beta first before sending out the production units. That means you'll get the prototype injection molded cases for testing, and based on beta feedback they'll either be released for a full production run or tweaked, retested and then released for full production.

[wasabah]

As for a timeline, I'm currently targeting to launch the Crowd Supply campaign on May 16th (unless something comes up before then).

Would be an awesome birthday present!

[BlueByLiquid]

2) As much as I'd love to, the minimums for Greens, Reds & Browns would tack on up to $65K to the base funding goal. I'll be watching the total for switches as the campaign is being funded, and the second I hit the numbers I need I'll be adding them. This includes the bags of switches I was originally hoping to offer as a pledge level, as well as a few other pledges I'm keeping close to my chest for now.

SO I'm confused as to which switches you will be using, or are you saying you won't be providing ANY switches until you hit the amount needed for them? Or are you saying that there is something different about the minimums for greens, reds and browns than other choices like blue, blacks, clears, etc and you will be offering the later switches?

As for a timeline, I'm currently targeting to launch the Crowd Supply campaign on May 16th (unless something comes up before then).

Is the beta going to happen before this time?

Thanks for the update!

Basically, what that means is that I'll be offering the boards with blues, clears & blacks to start. When I have enough funding that I could add browns, reds and greens to the line up you better believe I will.

The plan right now is still to run the beta first before sending out the production units. That means you'll get the prototype injection molded cases for testing, and based on beta feedback they'll either be released for a full production run or tweaked, retested and then released for full production.

Thanks that sounds like a good way to do the beta testing I'm so glad your taking your time not just planning on rushing things out (As Much as I would like you too .

I like blues and browns personally but I am amazed that the browns aren't a smaller buy in. Clearly looking at most large manufacture keyboards they must be shipping a crap ton of both blues and browns. Cherry probably has piles of browns like Scrooge McDuck's money tower. They wouldn't even notice if you dived in and swiped some.

[jacobolus]

I like blues and browns personally but I am amazed that the browns aren't a smaller buy in. Clearly looking at most large manufacture keyboards they must be shipping a crap ton of both blues and browns. Cherry probably has piles of browns like Scrooge McDuck's money tower. They wouldn't even notice if you dived in and swiped some.

I think Cherry actually has trouble keeping up with demand, and e.g. Razer switching to Kaihua MX clones is partly caused just by difficulty sourcing Cherry MX switches. If you talk to, e.g., the MassDrop people, sourcing switches for Ergodox buys &c. is a real pain in the butt (and causes delays).

My guess is that Kaihua and other Chinese MX clones are going to take a bigger chunk of the market in the next few years, since they can offer switches at much cheaper prices, and OEMs won’t have the same supply and distribution problems they currently have with MX. The switches are close enough in feeling to Cherry MX that being half the cost and easy to source will make up for the lack of Cherry branding.

Personally though, I’m hoping that more OEMs start using Matias switches, which I like better than MX.

Or it would also be great if someone tried to clone other types of old switches (or, wow, here’s an idea, even invent some new ones). It’s kind of a bummer that the switches and keyboard build-quality of the 60s–70s were better in almost every way than the keyboards of the 80s–90s, and those were better than almost everything being made today. Cherry MX is a 30 year old design, which could be improved in at least some of: actuation distance, tactile feeling, stability, smoothness, sound, overall switch size, ... but currently we’re mostly stuck with them, because no one has put much research or development effort into keyswitches since the 80s.

(To be fair, the cause of this was relentless cost-cutting of all computer components, which has resulted in lots of people being able to afford computers, and that’s great!)

AcidFire: good luck sourcing switches!

[sordna]

Hasn't Matias done switch development recently? Like the Quiet Click switches in their Laptop Pro mechanical keyboard (which are an evolution of ALPS of course).

http://matias.ca/switches/quiet/

[jacobolus]

Hasn't Matias done switch development recently? Like the Quiet Click switches in their Laptop Pro mechanical keyboard (which are an evolution of ALPS of course).

http://matias.ca/switches/quiet/

Sure, Matias has done some tweaking of the Alps design (their quiet-click switches are sort of a combination of the simplified Alps switches made by Alps and then Fuhua which Matias was using in their original Tactile Pro keyboards, and the dampened Alps switches that used to ship in SGI and Apple keyboards 20 years ago), and they’ve done an impressive job working with their manufacturing partners on setting up the tooling and supply chain, tweaking the tactile leaves and springs and plastic pieces so they’re reliable and effective, and getting switches produced with good QC, etc.

And for the record I think Matias switches are awesome, and I would definitely recommend them.

But that’s not really a new switch design, where by “new” I mean something that might get a patent. (Though using a clear housing so that arbitrary LEDs can shine through the bottom is nice, for those folks who like LEDs. Cherry has now copied this idea, and I’m guessing the Cherry clones aren’t too far behind.)

[linziyi]

2) As much as I'd love to, the minimums for Greens, Reds & Browns would tack on up to $65K to the base funding goal. I'll be watching the total for switches as the campaign is being funded, and the second I hit the numbers I need I'll be adding them. This includes the bags of switches I was originally hoping to offer as a pledge level, as well as a few other pledges I'm keeping close to my chest for now.

So... No grey switches (the tactile one that is) considered?

[sm31]

So then given the hassles with Cherry MX, is it feasible to consider Matias instead AcidFire?

Just asking.

[QuadGMoto]

So then given the hassles with Cherry MX, is it feasible to consider Matias instead AcidFire?

Just asking.

Obviously AcidFire will probably have his own opinion, but here's my take.


The ALPS switches have a different pin configuration than the MX switches. That means a different circuit board would be needed. Supposedly, the pins are close enough to a mirror image that the board could simply be turned over, but I have my doubts about how well that would work.


IMHO, I think AcidFire should have an option for ALPS/Matias switches… in version 2. I think it's better to get a version shipping with just MX switches first, and add options such as ALPS compatible switches later rather than delaying things any further.

[sm31]

Makes sense; I hadn't thought about potential incompatibility.

So then given the hassles with Cherry MX, is it feasible to consider Matias instead AcidFire?

Just asking.

Obviously AcidFire will probably have his own opinion, but here's my take.


The ALPS switches have a different pin configuration than the MX switches. That means a different circuit board would be needed. Supposedly, the pins are close enough to a mirror image that the board could simply be turned over, but I have my doubts about how well that would work.


IMHO, I think AcidFire should have an option for ALPS/Matias switches… in version 2. I think it's better to get a version shipping with just MX switches first, and add options such as ALPS compatible switches later rather than delaying things any further.

[kittykatmax]

I must confess, I'm personally surprised and disappointed that the first available switches are all the higher actuation ones, given the fact that this is supposed to be an ergonomic keyboard.  Cherry MX Browns are  popular because of the low actuation force required (helpful if your hand function is impaired, as mine is), there's that nice tactile bump that's useful for touch typing to avoid bottoming out (which can be fatiguing), plus they are quiet enough to be used in office/shared computing environments.  This is why they are the most popularly used (Cherry) switch by manufacturers of ergonomic keyboards. Cherry MX blues are the lowest actuating switches you're offering, and they are among the worst (if not the worst) to try to use in a shared office environment (be that at work or home). 

Browns are also just a good all around option for people who want something that's pleasant for both gaming and typing.  Yes, I know, that aspect is considered by many to be strictly user preference, but it IS the general consensus when you read guides on Cherry MX switches, and in my own experiences, it has certainly proven to be the case.

[EvillePanda]

He did say it would be a stretch goal.  And it's not his fault.  He has to consider costs in order to get the project off the ground.  The lower actuation switches are more expensive.  It's unfortunate, but it happens.  I'm sure I don't have to say this, but if we want access to those lower actuation switches (or the other form factors for that matter), we should look at broadcasting AcidFire's project as loud and as far as we can to make sure he gets the funding he needs.  Let's look at this positively.  He's very close to starting his crowd funding.  As a community, let's focus on what we can do to make it successful, whether it be participating financially or getting the word out to people who can.  I'm excited for the board, even if the selection will be limited at the onset.  It won't be that way forever.  As long as he gets the support he'll need.

[spspencer]

I must confess, I'm personally surprised and disappointed that the first available switches are all the higher actuation ones, given the fact that this is supposed to be an ergonomic keyboard.  Cherry MX Browns are  popular because of the low actuation force required (helpful if your hand function is impaired, as mine is), there's that nice tactile bump that's useful for touch typing to avoid bottoming out (which can be fatiguing), plus they are quiet enough to be used in office/shared computing environments.  This is why they are the most popularly used (Cherry) switch by manufacturers of ergonomic keyboards. Cherry MX blues are the lowest actuating switches you're offering, and they are among the worst (if not the worst) to try to use in a shared office environment (be that at work or home). 

Browns are also just a good all around option for people who want something that's pleasant for both gaming and typing.  Yes, I know, that aspect is considered by many to be strictly user preference, but it IS the general consensus when you read guides on Cherry MX switches, and in my own experiences, it has certainly proven to be the case.

The great thing about cherry mx switches is they are available in different styles to suit everyone. The horrible thing about them is they can be difficult to source, or a manufacturer will settle on only offering one. I am a blue fan, so I'm happy. Given a choice, I would probably get greens because I haven't tried them yet.

I am the exact opposite of you as far as key choice. I detest browns; they feel "dirty" to me, like a defective mechanical component. I also love the blue sound. I'm in the older crowd, so I'm used to the sound--I'll even run programs that give me a "fake" click sound when typing on my MacBook's keyboard. I also like the blues because I'll tap my fingers lightly on the keyboard while thinking (another reason to look at greens). Lighter activation wouldn't work for me.

Having said all that, I love this project and want to see it succeed. If not having browns is a no-go for you I would be willing to solder browns for you free of charge (you provide board and switches.)

[QuadGMoto]

I'm personally thrilled that clears are on the initial list, in spite of the fact that I find them to be too heavy. That's because the switch I really want is the clear with a blue spring or equivalent. (I already have those.) That's, IMHO, a tactilly better switch than the browns.


If you think of it, that's an excellent starting set of switches, accounting for each basic type, tactile clicky, tactile quiet, and linear. If necessary, the springs on all 3 can be swapped out for something else.

[kittykatmax]

I am the exact opposite of you as far as key choice. I detest browns; they feel "dirty" to me, like a defective mechanical component. I also love the blue sound. I'm in the older crowd, so I'm used to the sound--I'll even run programs that give me a "fake" click sound when typing on my MacBook's keyboard. I also like the blues because I'll tap my fingers lightly on the keyboard while thinking (another reason to look at greens). Lighter activation wouldn't work for me.

Having said all that, I love this project and want to see it succeed. If not having browns is a no-go for you I would be willing to solder browns for you free of charge (you provide board and switches.)

I don't dislike blues at all, I simply suffer from arthritis, thumbs that dislocate, and nerve damage.   I originally bought a QFR with blues, but after a few months I switched to a QFS with browns.  It's simply less fatiguing for me to type on, feels better when gaming (I play WoW), and it's less disruptive given I share a small home office with my husband.   I've thought of trying reds, but I like having a tactile bump, plus my fingers can be twitchy and I'd likely make accidental keystrokes.  Perhaps it's because I have smaller hands than the average woman, but I also sometimes tap my fingers on the keys, and never make accidental key presses on the browns.

I'm actually in the "older crowd" too.   When I started working in IT, it was supporting Apple IIe and IBM PS/2 computers - I always loved those IBM keyboards!  My hands are probably such a mess because I've used computer keyboards heavily since the 80s, plus I used to love to draw, embroider/cross stitch, knit and make jewelry.  I reluctantly gave up my other hobbies, but they'll pry my computer keyboard from my cold dead hands!

Thank you for your extremely kind and generous offer (so many amazing people in the GH community), but I'd hate to impose like that; I'm much better at giving than receiving.  Depending upon how expensive the board winds up being (and it will be worth every penny!), I'll probably either buy it with blues first and get a second one with browns later on if possible (I also want to see this project and our wonderful AcidFire succeed!), or wait to see if browns become available.