Author Topic: Maltron offering "One-off" boards  (Read 18466 times)

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Offline Proword

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Maltron offering "One-off" boards
« on: Sat, 03 March 2012, 20:35:00 »
The front page of the Maltron website shows the new "compact" keyboard they made at the request of a client.
http://www.maltron.com/
Nice.




And I love the word "bespoke"  

Just so veddy British, wot?

Joe
« Last Edit: Sat, 03 March 2012, 21:11:19 by Proword »
Maltron 3D Dual Hand (x4)
Maltron 3D Single Hand (x2 - L & R)

Many people think their lifestyle comes at a cost - but they are quite cool with that as long as somebody ELSE pays it.

Offline Snarfangel

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Maltron offering "One-off" boards
« Reply #1 on: Sat, 03 March 2012, 21:59:46 »
I like the three big thumb buttons, but I rather miss the central number pad.

Well, I guess that *could* be a binary number pad with 0 and 1 in the center, but probably not. :)

Offline Roguemaster8

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Maltron offering "One-off" boards
« Reply #2 on: Sat, 03 March 2012, 22:45:49 »
Now that's cool, it's basically an ergonomic tenkeyless.
CM Storm Quickfire | Dell Quietkey | Unicomp Ultra Classic | KBC Poker

Offline sordna

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Maltron offering "One-off" boards
« Reply #3 on: Sat, 03 March 2012, 23:25:00 »
Nice, would like to see them make split boards next (separate, movable halves)
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline Input Nirvana

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Maltron offering "One-off" boards
« Reply #4 on: Mon, 05 March 2012, 12:56:24 »
What's the most interesting, is that the keywells are closer and now have angle (still not tilted or separated).

This shows that it is so much easier for an existing manufacturer to try/make different designs, I wish we saw more of this.
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Colemak
Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkeys From Hell                     Proudly GeekWhacking since 2009
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Offline dorkvader

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Maltron offering "One-off" boards
« Reply #5 on: Mon, 05 March 2012, 14:22:45 »
I wonder how much a "one off" split maltron would be....

Offline hoggy

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Maltron offering "One-off" boards
« Reply #6 on: Mon, 05 March 2012, 15:22:10 »
Quote from: input nirvana;535862
I wish we saw more of this.

+1.  Anything that isn't ordinary (even if it's still tat).  Just break the crust of the frustrating commodity mentality!


I feel better now.
GH Ergonomic Guide (in progress)
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54680.0

Offline Input Nirvana

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Maltron offering "One-off" boards
« Reply #7 on: Mon, 05 March 2012, 16:19:15 »
Quote from: hoggy;536033
+1.  Anything that isn't ordinary (even if it's still tat).  Just break the crust of the frustrating commodity mentality!


I feel better now.

Gimmie yer address, I'm mailing you a couple extra strength Tylenol.
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Colemak
Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkeys From Hell                     Proudly GeekWhacking since 2009
Things change, things stay the same                                        Thanks much, Smallfry  
I AM THE REAPER . . . BECAUSE I KILL IT
~retired from forum activities 2015~

Offline Lanx

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Maltron offering "One-off" boards
« Reply #8 on: Tue, 06 March 2012, 13:15:53 »
now we wait for the kinesis compact, cuz we know kinesis is original! (no but seriously that'd be cool)

Offline sordna

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Maltron offering "One-off" boards
« Reply #9 on: Tue, 06 March 2012, 13:30:18 »
Something like this ?

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 42867[/ATTACH]
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline PCDMaltron

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Maltron offering "One-off" boards
« Reply #10 on: Mon, 30 April 2012, 04:28:01 »
Hello and thank you for noticing our bespoke Maltron keyboard. We are able to manufacture items on request, our chariman is still tinkering away, travelling to clients and promoting Maltron throughout the UK and recently celebrated his 96th birthday!

I am happy to answer any queries you may have for Maltron keyboards, also, we are undertaking a design review so weclome any suggestions!

With thanks,

Adam
Marketing chap at Maltron!

Offline Proword

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Maltron offering "One-off" boards
« Reply #11 on: Mon, 30 April 2012, 04:30:39 »
Happy Birthday Stephen. :-D

Joe
Maltron 3D Dual Hand (x4)
Maltron 3D Single Hand (x2 - L & R)

Many people think their lifestyle comes at a cost - but they are quite cool with that as long as somebody ELSE pays it.

Offline sordna

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Maltron offering "One-off" boards
« Reply #12 on: Mon, 30 April 2012, 10:33:00 »
Dear Maltron,
have you considered offering your keyboards with choice of Cherry MX switch type? From what I know, Maltron keyboards use the Cherry MX black switches, which are considered heavy and tiring by many. Wouldn't a lighter switch such as the Cherry MX red be better, especially for RSI sufferers?

http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Cherry+switches+and+boards&highlight=cherry+wiki#Red:
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline PCDMaltron

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Maltron offering "One-off" boards
« Reply #13 on: Mon, 30 April 2012, 10:42:16 »
Hi Sordna,

Thanks for the comment, I will highlight this with the Maltron developers as there is a design review in progress. I appreciate all comments and suggestions!

Many thanks,

Adam
Marketing chap at Maltron

Offline mharrison

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Maltron offering "One-off" boards
« Reply #14 on: Tue, 01 May 2012, 12:42:16 »
Having a split (2 piece with cord between the two) keyboard would be a huge differentiator. +1 to that idea
« Last Edit: Tue, 01 May 2012, 18:45:21 by mharrison »

Offline Bespoke

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Re: Maltron offering "One-off" boards
« Reply #15 on: Wed, 26 December 2012, 01:59:01 »
That's my keyboard, but it doesn't look like that anymore. Attached are pictures of what it looks like now.

Amusing idea from Snarfangel about the two keys in the middle being a binary number pad, but they're just my win and ctrl keys. By putting them in the center, I only need one of each but can still reach them from both hands, rather than needing two of each like on a traditional keyboard.

Stephen Hobday at Maltron did an excellent job making this keyboard, and was able to do almost all of the customizations I wanted. There's another customization which isn't obvious in the pictures: the palmrests are keys. Each palmrest has a keycap on it which is the size of the entire palmrest, hinged by the thumb keywell and with the keyswitch near the edge of the keyboard, so when I rest my palm, the key is pressed. This eliminates the need for many of the dedicated keys of a traditional keyboard, since I type with my palms not rested, but press command keys with my palm rested, and all of the keys except the mod keys (ctrl, alt, etc) are interpreted differently depending on whether a palm key is pressed, like a laptop Fn key. For example, I have the arrow keys on the Qwerty IJKL positions (though I use a custom letter layout, not Qwerty), and I have home/end, page up/down, and other navigation keys on other letter keys, F1-F10 on the number keys, and F11-F24 and other special functions on all the rest of the keys. After I got the keyboard and tried out Stephen's handiwork, I told him I recommend Maltron add palm keys to all their hand-operated keyboards. Once you try this feature, going back to a regular keyboard feels like riding a bike with no handlebars.

Mapping both palm keys as Fn keys, so you can use either one (like the pair of shift keys or ctrl keys on traditional keyboards), is easy to get used to; it felt natural to me almost immediately. But that's a waste of a valuable key, so later I remapped the left palm key to shift. Now I'd never go back to wasting it as a second Fn key, but the first few days were really frustrating, I imagine like learning the Maltron letter layout if you're used to using both thumbs for space on Qwerty.

Another customization not visible is that it has Cherry browns instead of blacks.

Although he made the customizations I requested, after I got the keyboard I discovered that the thumb keywells, which are oriented relative to the main keywells in the same way as on a standard Maltron, were uncomfortable to use. I tried to get used to them, but couldn't. They're very different from Kinesis thumb keys (which are too high), but no more comfortable. Another problem is that the keyboard didn't have n-key rollover, which is ironic because the only reason to not have it is to save the cost of diodes, yet every keyswitch in the keyboard actually has a diode, but he just left them disconnected.

To fix the thumb keywell and key rollover problems, and some other minor problems, I had to remove the wiring, cut the keyboard in half, reduce the width by 3/4 inch by trimming the inner edges of the two halves, cut out the thumb keywells and reshape them, eliminate some keys and reposition some others, then epoxy everything back together, and rewire and resolder everything, and replace the controller. I also installed a touchpad that I scavenged from an old laptop.

Overall the key positions on the Maltron are slightly better than on the Kinesis, but it's slightly harder to find the home row by feel on the Maltron; I found myself frequently putting my fingers one row down. A small drop of epoxy on the S and T keys (Qwerty F and J) for tactile feedback solved this problem, similar to standard keyboards.

I can't imagine why the regular Kinesis and Maltron keyboards have the two main keywells parallel yet only 10 inches apart center-to-center (Qwerty D to K). That's a suitable configuration if you're five years old, but as an adult, if you want your fingers to be parallel to the key columns, you have to either bend your wrists or hold your elbows in front of your stomach. That's why I got a custom Maltron with the keywells angled in at 30 degrees. I took my (unmodified) Kinesis off the shelf just now to measure it, and tried it again while I had it out. It's hard now to believe that I ever thought it was comfortable.

If anybody else is considering buying a custom ergonomic keyboard, I encourage you to buy one from Maltron. Stephen does good work, and agreed to do major customizations. Had I known in advance that I wanted the additional changes that I made, I think he would have made most of them too. The only ones I requested but he couldn't do were the touchpad (though he did make a pedestal for me to mount one on), and a bad idea I had of squeezing a pair of Datahand-style vertical keys into the thumb keywells, and he gave up on the latter only after spending a long time trying. The Maltron website says they're doing a programmable controller now, so hopefully they've fixed it to support n-key rollover too.

Their email servers had some problems, and I don't know whether they fixed them, so if you want to talk to them, don't rely on email. Call them. They told me a couple of my emails to Stephen were lost before I placed my order, and I never received a response to feedback I sent after I got the keyboard.

The custom layout I started with was based on Malt's layout:
 86419  70235
_/pucb  kdlyxq
=anisw  gthorz
“-.,f(  )mv'j”
 [?;*    +:\]
I called it Dlyx. In case you're reading this with a variable-width font and the layout is visually misaligned, note that the parentheses are on Qwerty's B and N key positions. Space and the letter E are on the right and left thumb home keys, the same as on Malt's layout, and adjacent to space and E are enter and tab.
Dlyx is more comfortable to type on than Malt's layout. Unfortunately, Dlyx has more same-finger digraphs (including UI, and most annoyingly YO), but also has more laterally adjacent digraphs, more comfortable diagonals (Malt's worst is LO), less index finger stretches to the center columns, and better finger loading.

I've been using that layout, with minor variations, for the past nine months. Currently it's:
 43218  90567
=-pucb  kdlyz+
(anisw  gthor)
“'.,f_  qmv/x”
 [?;*    j:\]
I call it Dlyz. I'm pleased to say I no longer remember how to touch type on Qwerty, which gives me a good excuse for making other people type when we're at their computers.

One more idea for those of you making laptop keyboards, this keyboard design is 9 inches front to back (including the touchpad), 11 inches left to right for the regular keys, and 13.5 inches left to right including full-size palm keys, which is small enough that a flat version of it would fit on a 15 inch laptop. That would be more comfortable to use than the traditional laptop keyboard with horizontal rows of keys. On a 14 inch laptop, it would almost fit, except that the palm rests would be too narrow, so your palms would extend a little over the left and right edges of the laptop case, which would be uncomfortable.

My contoured version is 11 inches front to back, and 14.5 inches left to right, but that's including some unnecessary plastic, because that was the simplest way to make it using a modification of the standard Maltron L90.

Offline Proword

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Re: Maltron offering "One-off" boards
« Reply #16 on: Wed, 26 December 2012, 02:46:01 »
Bespoke,

Thanks for your very detailed report.  Most interesting.  I'm toying with getting a "bespoke" full size dual 3D myself.  I've started using a newish keyboard (with a USB plug) I've been saving until I bought a new computer, and it's got a different layout for some of the minor keys, like the colon/ quote marks etc, but the really annoying thing is because I always rest my hands on the pad at the bottom the board, when I use some of the keys in the column(s) for the pinky finger the flesh of the finger nearest the palm continually hits the Windows key, so in the end I removed the key caps, because I never use that key in normal circumstances, and the key immediately to the left of the "q" is inactive, so that can be my O/S key.  I'd also like to go (back) to having the ( and ) keys on the shift 5 and shift 6.  I'd also like to try the trackball in between the thumb key pads, just to give a smaller footprint by removing my standalone trackball.
Maltron 3D Dual Hand (x4)
Maltron 3D Single Hand (x2 - L & R)

Many people think their lifestyle comes at a cost - but they are quite cool with that as long as somebody ELSE pays it.

Offline sordna

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Re: Maltron offering "One-off" boards
« Reply #17 on: Sat, 29 December 2012, 00:27:03 »
There's another customization which isn't obvious in the pictures: the palmrests are keys. Each palmrest has a keycap on it which is the size of the entire palmrest, hinged by the thumb keywell and with the keyswitch near the edge of the keyboard, so when I rest my palm, the key is pressed. This eliminates the need for many of the dedicated keys of a traditional keyboard, since I type with my palms not rested, but press command keys with my palm rested, and all of the keys except the mod keys (ctrl, alt, etc) are interpreted differently depending on whether a palm key is pressed, like a laptop Fn key. For example, I have the arrow keys on the Qwerty IJKL positions (though I use a custom letter layout, not Qwerty), and I have home/end, page up/down, and other navigation keys on other letter keys, F1-F10 on the number keys, and F11-F24 and other special functions on all the rest of the keys. After I got the keyboard and tried out Stephen's handiwork, I told him I recommend Maltron add palm keys to all their hand-operated keyboards. Once you try this feature, going back to a regular keyboard feels like riding a bike with no handlebars.

Mapping both palm keys as Fn keys, so you can use either one (like the pair of shift keys or ctrl keys on traditional keyboards), is easy to get used to; it felt natural to me almost immediately. But that's a waste of a valuable key, so later I remapped the left palm key to shift.

I'm very excited to hear about the palmrests acting like palm keys! I don't know if you've seen how I had a similar idea and added palm keys (arcade buttons) to my Kinesis Advantage:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=26579.0

I too have the left one as shift and the right one as keypad shift (ie Fn), what a coincidence!

Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline Bespoke

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Re: Maltron offering "One-off" boards
« Reply #18 on: Fri, 11 January 2013, 03:12:14 »
Proword, is the keyboard that you had to remove some keycaps from a Maltron, or is it something else? And if you use parentheses a lot, try making them unshifted, like I did on Dlyx and Dlyz. Unshifted, in the qwerty B and N positions, is a lot better than shifted on 5 and 6. I still don't know whether I'll leave mine on the outer columns of the home row, as I have them now, or move them back to the center, but either way is better than having them shifted and two rows away from home row. For an integrated pointing device instead of a standalone one, having a smaller footprint is just a secondary benefit; having it nearer at hand is an even bigger benefit. I think you'll like it. Also I posted another message at http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=38629.0 and since you're probably the most proficient Maltron typist here I'm hoping you'll comment.

Sordna, it looks like your non-full-size palm keys let you rest your palms without pressing the keys, which I can't do on my keyboard. But that means that to press your palm keys, you have to do more than just rest your palms: you have to move them away from their normal resting position, or at least stretch or twist your hands to press the keys using the base of your thumbs, which is awkward when you need to press another key with the same hand at the same time (especially shift-equal or shift-1, or fn-0 or fn-dash, on the layout in your picture). Even if you put the key directly under the palm resting position, it would become uncomfortable if you have to hold fn down for a long time while using a long sequence of commands. With a full-size palm key, when I rest my palm, it doesn't feel like I'm pressing a key at all, so it's comfortable.

Since it isn't a problem to have fn and shift temporarily pressed while I'm not typing, generally the advantage of full-size palm keys outweighs the disadvantage. But in the case that I want to press a command key without pressing shift (because pressing shift with the command will make it do something different), I can't rest both my palms; I have to lift the left one. In this case, it would be better to have a non-full-size left palm key, but the other cases outweigh this one. At my desk, I could avoid that tradeoff by using foot pedals instead of palm keys, but this isn't practical for mobile use, and even at my desk it isn't practical when I want to lean back and put my feet up.

Offline Proword

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Re: Maltron offering "One-off" boards
« Reply #19 on: Fri, 11 January 2013, 06:20:36 »
Bespoke, yes, it is a Maltron dual hand 3D, and what I'm after is to go back to the "old" layout which had the brackets on 5 and 6, but the bugbear about the keycaps is that this is the first keyboard I've had with the O/S keys, and I'm used to the older layout which had a "blank" area at the end of the ring finger column(s), which for some unfathomable reason partially affected my hand placement.



The Old keyboard (1986) is the black one, and if you look closely to the left you can see one reason why I want to change it,  it's got a DIN plug with a P/S2 adapter, and I have to use yet another adapter to go into a USB port.  I've found that piggybacking so many plugs makes it unsuitable for using a KMV switch (Belkin flipper) so I can use two computers with one Keyboard, Mouse and Video.  The old keyboard is still working well, but *sigh* it's been superseded by later technology.  I'd last year been in communication with Stephen at Maltron about having the keyboard "refurbished" but given its age it probably wasn't an economical proposition. The black squares on the grey keyboard are the O/S keys where I've removed the caps.

I do most of my work using WordPerfect which means I can re-program my keystrokes so I've remapped the other problem keys, comma, quote marks, parentheses, colon etc back to where I like them, but if I go off into a different software package (such as this board) the keystrokes revert to their initial positions, and I'd rather have a keyboard built to my own specs to not have to change.  When I purchased my present keyboard, Maltron didn't have the "bespoke" option, and I guess I'd like to take advantage of it. 

Since I use the Malt layout, putting parentheses on "B" and "N" wouldn't work for me because the equivalent position in Malt are colon, semi colon, single quote, double quote, which, on the present keyboard are actually transposed, and I've had to remap them in WordPerfect.  In any case I don't use the parentheses enough to be a problem, just a bit of an irritant.

It's not all gloom and doom however.  The new keyboard has key controls for volume and sound on/off, which now that I'm getting used to it, is absolutely marvelous, given that all my work is transcribing audio recordings.  That'll be a definite on the possible newer  keyboard.

Re your palm switch, if you look at the black keyboard, you'll see that I rest my hands on the face of the keyboard so much that I've glued some high density foam on there, which has actually taken on the shape of the base of my palm(s).  One reason I haven't put foam on the grey keyboard is that there is a minute but noticeable dishing there and it's fairly comfortable to leave my hands there.    Having just written that, I've perhaps solved the problem of why my fingers hit the O/S keys ... the foam lifts my hands a smidgin higher - or rather LACK of foam DOESN'T lift them higher.  Ain't it amazing how discussing something can help in understanding it? ;D

I've had a look at your other posting and will make a comment, but I'm not sure it'll be useful to you. :(

Joe
Maltron 3D Dual Hand (x4)
Maltron 3D Single Hand (x2 - L & R)

Many people think their lifestyle comes at a cost - but they are quite cool with that as long as somebody ELSE pays it.

Offline sordna

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Re: Maltron offering "One-off" boards
« Reply #20 on: Fri, 11 January 2013, 13:38:00 »
Sordna, it looks like your non-full-size palm keys let you rest your palms without pressing the keys, which I can't do on my keyboard. But that means that to press your palm keys, you have to do more than just rest your palms: you have to move them away from their normal resting position, or at least stretch or twist your hands to press the keys using the base of your thumbs, which is awkward when you need to press another key with the same hand at the same time (especially shift-equal or shift-1, or fn-0 or fn-dash, on the layout in your picture).

Actually, to rest my hands, I rotate them toward the handshake position (it decompresses the nerves) but when I type my hands are over the palm keys, so they are easily pressed. You are right I do need to move my hand a bit, which is why I mention in my wiki that I should have moved the palm keys closer to the outer edges of the keyboard, and in fact I have done so in another keyboard.

Quote
. Even if you put the key directly under the palm resting position, it would become uncomfortable if you have to hold fn down for a long time while using a long sequence of commands. With a full-size palm key, when I rest my palm, it doesn't feel like I'm pressing a key at all, so it's comfortable.

Actually I sometimes do rest pushing down on the arcade button, and it's very comfortable as well, because it very smooth and rounded, without any edges felt at all.

Anyway, the concept is the same, and the functionality is for all practical purposes the same. Was it your idea/request, or was it an idea by Maltron, to have the rest area act like extra buttons? I am very happy to see this implemented by a manufacturer by the way, and would be even happier if it was adopted for mass produced keyboards!
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline Bespoke

  • Posts: 9
Re: Maltron offering "One-off" boards
« Reply #21 on: Sat, 12 January 2013, 18:30:54 »
Joe, if you end up with more keyboards than you have use for, then maybe sell your old one. Surely there are others on geekhack who would like to cut up a Maltron and make something custom from it, and the old interface won't matter if the hacker is going to discard the controller and use a custom one anyway. Maltron mounts the keyswitches directly in the shell and wires them point to point using verowire or something similar, which is hacker-friendly, moreso than the Kinesis, which has the keyswitches mounted on PCBs.

From your comment in my other thread, I don't understand why a typing speed app would need to take account of the layout. Amphetype works fine for me, and it doesn't know my layout.

One thing I forgot to mention, when I rest my palms with my fingers on the home row and curled naturally, my palms hang a bit over the front edge of the palmrest, which is uncomfortable. I mitigate the problem by pushing my palms up and curling my fingers more than I would otherwise. When I rest my palms with my fingers on the next row up and curled naturally, my palms are fully on the palmrests, just barely, which indicates that the palmrests are slightly too short, and should be extended by 3/4 inch (the center-to-center distance between rows). My hands are just average size; since yours are larger than average, it seems you must have the same problem, and even worse. Do you? The distance on my keyboard from the center of the home row (center of qwerty D or K key) to the front edge of the palmrest is about 5.25 inches, which is the same as on a standard Maltron (and Kinesis), so I think it should be at least 6 inches. Maybe Lillian Malt just had small hands. :)

Sordna, my palms hang over the front edge of the Kinesis too. Do yours? Or do you have to curl your fingers more than naturally to avoid it?

You've convinced me that I should try arcade buttons, though I don't have time for it now. I still think that a full-size key is probably better for the right hand, but based on your description it sounds like a non-full-size key might be ideal for the left hand, so I don't have to lift my left hand to use unshifted commands.

The palm keys were my idea. The basic design for how to make them was also my idea, but Stephen adjusted the design slightly to make construction more practical. In my initial message to Maltron last January with my long list of requested customizations, I wrote, "They would need to be large enough to support the palms entirely, so the palms don't extend over the edges of the keys, unlike the palm keys on the Veyboard," although at the time I originally thought of the idea (autumn 2011) I didn't know that it was an old one. I later learned about the Veyboard, and that somebody else had already made palm keys to serve as ctrl keys, but I don't remember where I read the latter. So far as I know, I was the first to propose full-size palm keys and to make them not feel like keys.

My original idea was just to use both keys as fn keys. I didn't think of using the left one as shift until last April, and even then, I only tried it for a couple days before deciding that it was a bad idea. In November I tried it again, and decided to keep it and force myself to get used to it, because I was desperate for a decent location for shift and couldn't think of anything else.

Although Stephen made palm keys for me, and after I got the keyboard in February and tried them out I said they were great and encouraged him to add them to his standard keyboards, I didn't get the impression that he thought it was a good idea, and when Maltron posted pictures of my keyboard to their website they made no mention of the palm keys. Maybe if more customers ask for them (hint hint) then they'll advertise them as an option. I'm pleased that they at least agree that turning the main keywells inward at 30 degrees is worthwhile.

Offline Proword

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  • Location: Perth, Western Australia
Re: Maltron offering "One-off" boards
« Reply #22 on: Sat, 12 January 2013, 19:30:14 »
Joe, if you end up with more keyboards than you have use for, then maybe sell your old one. Surely there are others on geekhack who would like to cut up a Maltron and make something custom from it, and the old interface won't matter if the hacker is going to discard the controller and use a custom one anyway. Maltron mounts the keyswitches directly in the shell and wires them point to point using verowire or something similar, which is hacker-friendly, moreso than the Kinesis, which has the keyswitches mounted on PCBs.

From your comment in my other thread, I don't understand why a typing speed app would need to take account of the layout. Amphetype works fine for me, and it doesn't know my layout.


If I DO decide to buy a bespoke Maltron it will probably be time to consider selling the old faithful, although I suspect I'd like to have at least four  "just in case" ... ;)

Yes, thanks for pointing out my error re typing speed app and keyboard layout.  I was conflating two different (though related) problems, both to do with efficiency.  One is that having been using steno for a couple of decades, at speed I instinctively hit a "shortcut" rather than type the "full expression" which then comes up as an error, and slows me down.  This gives a false impression of both the keyboard and my own ability.  :)

The problem with the layout and split space bar etc is trying to find an app which gives an accurate measure of how much travel my fingers do to assist with calculating the amount of work my hands do.  None of the apps I found could be programmed to have a different key under each thumb.   I eventually abandoned the search and settled on using a refinement of Stephen Hobday's method of showing how many different words can be typed without moving the fingers from the home row/keys, reversing the traditional measure and indicating how much work is NOT done when comparing one key distribution with another, ie the larger the number of words which can be typed without moving the hands the less work I'm doing.  I developed the home row word count by including as many different layouts as possible, QWERTY, Dvorak, Maltron, Colemak and one or two others.

The Maltron method of mounting the key switches directly on the shell and soldering wires proved very useful many years ago when I sold my Apple II computer and bought a dual Z80/6502 processor called a Basis Medfly, which unlike the Apple II had a detached keyboard.  I was able to gut the Medfly keyboard and put the PCB into the Maltron shell and solder about 60 metres of thin cable to the PCB and the switches.  It worked quite well until eventually I sent it back to the factory to have it converted to IBM compatibility.

Re the palm hanging over the edge of the keyboard, you mentioned that I had bigger than average hands, I'm assuming you're referring to this video


This is not my new keyboard, although in almost every measurement I've made (other than perhaps the positioning of fn keys and extra keys in the number pad in the centre) all my dual handers are pretty much the same size (the same mould is used for all of them).  Although you can't see the base of my palms they are being supported by the foam pad so I don't really find that a problem.  At rest my fingers are all bent at different angles, with the middle finger having the smallest "curl".

Joe
Maltron 3D Dual Hand (x4)
Maltron 3D Single Hand (x2 - L & R)

Many people think their lifestyle comes at a cost - but they are quite cool with that as long as somebody ELSE pays it.

Offline sordna

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Re: Maltron offering "One-off" boards
« Reply #23 on: Sat, 12 January 2013, 19:50:11 »
Sordna, my palms hang over the front edge of the Kinesis too. Do yours? Or do you have to curl your fingers more than naturally to avoid it?

The edge of my palm where it meets the wrist (ie where the skin folds if you bend your hand down) is right around the edge of the keyboard. It's not uncomfortable so I don't feel I have to curl my fingers any more than normal, and I have rather large hands. Some photos and videos around the net can show you what the position looks like, I don't think it's much different between the two keyboads.



Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline Bespoke

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Re: Maltron offering "One-off" boards
« Reply #24 on: Sun, 20 January 2013, 13:05:13 »
Now I realize why your palms don't hang off the front of the standard Maltron or Kinesis: your forearms aren't perpendicular to the keyboard (the problem that my 30 degree angle solves), and your diagonal position gives you a bit more room than I have, just enough to fit your full palms. Solving one problem creates another. So for the angled design, Maltron should extend the front to compensate for the loss of the diagonal forearm position, but for their standard design, no extension is needed.

Offline sordna

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Re: Maltron offering "One-off" boards
« Reply #25 on: Tue, 22 January 2013, 10:26:14 »
Very acute observations!
What do you think of the Ergodox keyboard ?
I plan to get one, and prop up the sides in a semi-vertical position:

Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline Proword

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Re: Maltron offering "One-off" boards
« Reply #26 on: Wed, 23 January 2013, 02:48:42 »
Now I realize why your palms don't hang off the front of the standard Maltron or Kinesis: your forearms aren't perpendicular to the keyboard (the problem that my 30 degree angle solves), and your diagonal position gives you a bit more room than I have, just enough to fit your full palms. Solving one problem creates another. So for the angled design, Maltron should extend the front to compensate for the loss of the diagonal forearm position, but for their standard design, no extension is needed.


I went back to one of Stephen Hobday's papers to see if he had anything to say about this.

http://www.maltron.com/keyboard-info/academic-papers/234-a-keyboard-to-increase-productivity-and-reduce-postural-stress.html

I think he has covered this aspect  of angles of hands towards the middle of the paper, just around the diagram showing the angle of the keys and fingers. 

If the relaxed hand and forearm is laid on a table, it can be seen that when the finger ends lie in a vertical plane roughly across the axis of the forearm, the fingers slope outwards at about 20 degrees from the vertical. Because the outer fingers are shorter, the back of the hand shows pronation reduced to the 60 degree region. To take advantage of this and still have the right feeling of comfort at the finger ends, it was decided to tilt the keys outwards to match the slope angle as far as possible.

But obviously I have absolutely no experience with your keyboard, so I wouldn't be able to make any further comment than what I already have.

Joe
Maltron 3D Dual Hand (x4)
Maltron 3D Single Hand (x2 - L & R)

Many people think their lifestyle comes at a cost - but they are quite cool with that as long as somebody ELSE pays it.

Offline Bespoke

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Re: Maltron offering "One-off" boards
« Reply #27 on: Fri, 25 January 2013, 20:06:56 »
Sordna, the Ergodox is close to a flat version of my keyboard, which would be needed for a laptop, but it isn't optimal for a desktop keyboard. If you tent the Ergodox, then it's essentially an improved version of the Microsoft Natural, and it's close to what I'd want if contouring weren't possible, but on a desktop, there's no reason not to contour the keyboard; why not go all the way?

Joe, the 30 degree angle I'm talking about is around the Z axis. I don't know if there's a standard name for this angle, so let's call it "yaw". The flat Ergodox shown in Sordna's picture above also has about 30 degree yaw. Yaw is zero on the standard Maltron, and on the earlier Mark 2 and 3, and on the Kinesis; the two halves of the keyboard are parallel. I wasn't talking about the pronation angle (complement of the tenting angle, which is zero on a flat keyboard, thus 90 degree pronation), which on my keyboard is the same as on the standard Maltron, about 72 degrees. In the section of the paper that you quoted, Stephen was talking about pronation.

In section 2, about wrist abduction, he wrote, "By experiment we found that only by splitting the key board and separating the two parts by approximately 25cm between centres, could the abduction angles be reduced to zero for average adults, while at the same time keeping forearms nearly parallel in the minimum strain position. Although small angles do occur, this separation also seemed acceptable to children and men with wide shoulders." He didn't write anything about the possibility of using a yaw other than zero. In order to eliminate the "small angles" he mentions (i.e. the diagonal forearm position, not parallel to the key columns, which I mentioned it my previous message), for an average adult, it's necessary to either use a center-to-center distance of at least 35-40cm, which would make the keyboard much too big, or use a yaw greater than zero. The shorter the distance, the greater the yaw must be in order to keep each forearm parallel to the key columns for that hand. On my keyboard, the distance is about 13cm, thus the 30 degree yaw.

BTW, with no abduction, the diagonal position of the forearm requires warping the optimal contoured key positions a bit to compensate, as you can see on the standard Maltron and Kinesis. For example, look at the position of the S key (on qwerty layout) relative to the A key; S is shifted slightly up along the Y axis, as it ought to be (by about 3/8 inch on the Kinesis and about 3/16 inch on the Maltron). However, look at the caps lock key; it's also shifted up, which is the warping I'm talking about. If the forearms were parallel to the key columns, then caps lock wouldn't need to be shifted up; it'd be in line with the A key, or even shifted slightly down. Since I have no diagonal forearm position, but my keyboard was made from a standard Maltron shell which was designed to compensate for a diagonal, I had to reposition all the keys in the outer column of each hand in order to undo the warping that was now a hindrance rather than a help to the keyboard's ergonomics, which was one of the minor problems I mentioned in my first message here. I told Maltron about this last March, so presumably they've made this change in their new version of the yawed design.

Offline Proword

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Re: Maltron offering "One-off" boards
« Reply #28 on: Fri, 25 January 2013, 20:55:00 »
Bespoke, I'm reasonably sure I understand the angle(s) you're talking about but just to make sure I see it this way.  If I take a ruler and pen and draw a line from each elbow to the tip of each middle finger and extend these lines they should intersect at an angle of 30 degrees (roughly) probably behind my monitor (assuming my hands are on the keyboard).   If I've got that right - IF - then to me there seems to be a couple of very subtle factors further involved.  Keeping with your aeronautical analogy, by assuming that each individual key can be pivoted in the same way as a joy stick, then by moving the joystick to the left or right, we'd have "roll" and pushing the joystick front to rear we have "pitch".  So "yaw" would occur when the joystick is rotated clockwise or anti-clockwise.  But in your instance, are you talking about yawing the entire hand about a mythical central pivot?

I've never really analysed what Stephen has done (in great detail) but now that I'm looking more closely at my hands, I see that he has applied differing degrees of roll and pitch to individual keys particularly those under outside fingers (ring and pinky).  If I keep my hands yawed at 30 degrees then the fingertips sit very comfortably in the dish within each of the key tops, whereas if I have my hands "parallel" (0 degrees yaw?) then my fingertips move into a non-ideal position and I find myself striking the keys with the side of the fingertip (ring and pinky.) 

A most interesting look at something I'd never considered very deeply before.

Joe
Maltron 3D Dual Hand (x4)
Maltron 3D Single Hand (x2 - L & R)

Many people think their lifestyle comes at a cost - but they are quite cool with that as long as somebody ELSE pays it.

Offline sordna

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Re: Maltron offering "One-off" boards
« Reply #29 on: Fri, 25 January 2013, 21:00:41 »
Sordna, the Ergodox is close to a flat version of my keyboard, which would be needed for a laptop, but it isn't optimal for a desktop keyboard. If you tent the Ergodox, then it's essentially an improved version of the Microsoft Natural, and it's close to what I'd want if contouring weren't possible, but on a desktop, there's no reason not to contour the keyboard; why not go all the way?

The ErgoDox is ment to be an affordable, ergonomic keyboard that anyone should be able to use. The concave keywells, even though a great concept, are off-putting many users, and besides, we already have the Kinesis and Maltron offering that. I actually think both the Kinesis and the Maltron have the concave too pronounced, and the top and bottom rows are a bit uncomfortable to type (you have to extend your fingers too much to hit the top row, and curl them too much to hit the bottom row). A flat keyboard has the advantage of gravity helping when you type on all rows, and you can even type with 1-2 fingers easily (some folks type like that out of bad habit, and some because their other fingers hurt). A flat PCB like the ergodox uses, and especially one that is used THE SAME on both halves of the keyboard (you buy 2x of the same PCB, and it has extra holes and drawings to allow it to be used on either the left or right hand side, it's simply brilliant) helps keep the cost down.
« Last Edit: Sat, 26 January 2013, 09:44:30 by sordna »
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline Viz

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Re: Maltron offering "One-off" boards
« Reply #30 on: Sat, 26 January 2013, 09:25:16 »
What is the price for one of theese?

Offline Bespoke

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Re: Maltron offering "One-off" boards
« Reply #31 on: Sat, 26 January 2013, 13:08:19 »
Viz, Maltron's website lists their standard L90 keyboard at £375 (about $592). My custom keyboard cost a bit over $1000, but that's including the cost of an L90, intercontinental shipping, taxes, and the major customizations of it that Maltron did for me. If they start offering my custom design as a standard product, and make a mold for the shell to eliminate the labor cost of modifying the L90 shell, I think it'll cost no more than the L90, maybe even less since it has less keys.

Sordna, making a homemade tented-flat keyboard similar to how you plan to arrange the Ergodox, but in a sort of pyramidal shape with the thumb keys and a touchpad on the front face rather than having the thumb keys in the same planes as the main key groups, was my backup plan in case Maltron was unable to make a customized contoured keyboard to my specifications, but I considered that design to be a kludge; I didn't see any real merits other than being easier to make. But I see your point. It does have merits of its own. Well then just for the sake of finding something to criticize, let me point out that the Ergodox doesn't have palm keys. ;)

Joe, I'm talking about yawing the left side of the keyboard clockwise by 15 degrees, for example around Qwerty D as the pivot, and yawing the right side counterclockwise by 15 degrees, for example around Qwerty K as the pivot, for a total angle between them of 30 degrees. Your forearms yaw around your elbows as the pivots, with your forearms moving in the X-Y plane by twisting your shoulders, while keeping your elbows at your sides and bent at a constant 90 degrees and keeping your forearms parallel to the ground. Your hands can abduct around your wrists as the pivots, but it's better if they don't; your hands should be parallel to your forearms (i.e. zero abduction).

If your abduction is zero, and the yaw of your forearms doesn't match the yaw of the keyboard (i.e. you have diagonal forearm positions, relative to the keyboard), then your keyboard needs to compensate by warping the optimal contoured layout, as the standard Maltron and Kinesis do. If your forearm yaw does match the keyboard yaw (i.e. you have no diagonal forearm position), then the front edge of each half of the keyboard must extend out further to support your entire palm than it would have to if you have a diagonal forearm position, which is why your palms fit on your keyboard but mine don't fit on mine.

On a standard Maltron or Kinesis, the keyboard yaw is zero, but as an average adult, in normal typing position with zero abduction, your forearm yaw is about 15 degrees; you can't use the keyboard with a forearm yaw of zero (i.e. parallel forearms) unless you hold your elbows in front of your stomach, which is uncomfortable. To fix the problem, you can widen the keyboard (increase the center-to-center distance from the standard 10 inches to at least 14) and keep the keyboard yaw at zero, or you can keep the 10 inches and increase the keyboard yaw to about 15 degrees, or, as in my design, eliminate the central numeric keypad, narrow the keyboard to a center-to-center distance of about 5 inches, and increase the keyboard yaw to 30 degrees.

Offline Viz

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  • Location: Norway
Re: Maltron offering "One-off" boards
« Reply #32 on: Sat, 26 January 2013, 14:15:42 »
Viz, Maltron's website lists their standard L90 keyboard at £375 (about $592). My custom keyboard cost a bit over $1000, but that's including the cost of an L90, intercontinental shipping, taxes, and the major customizations of it that Maltron did for me. If they start offering my custom design as a standard product, and make a mold for the shell to eliminate the labor cost of modifying the L90 shell, I think it'll cost no more than the L90, maybe even less since it has less keys.

Sordna, making a homemade tented-flat keyboard similar to how you plan to arrange the Ergodox, but in a sort of pyramidal shape with the thumb keys and a touchpad on the front face rather than having the thumb keys in the same planes as the main key groups, was my backup plan in case Maltron was unable to make a customized contoured keyboard to my specifications, but I considered that design to be a kludge; I didn't see any real merits other than being easier to make. But I see your point. It does have merits of its own. Well then just for the sake of finding something to criticize, let me point out that the Ergodox doesn't have palm keys. ;)

Joe, I'm talking about yawing the left side of the keyboard clockwise by 15 degrees, for example around Qwerty D as the pivot, and yawing the right side counterclockwise by 15 degrees, for example around Qwerty K as the pivot, for a total angle between them of 30 degrees. Your forearms yaw around your elbows as the pivots, with your forearms moving in the X-Y plane by twisting your shoulders, while keeping your elbows at your sides and bent at a constant 90 degrees and keeping your forearms parallel to the ground. Your hands can abduct around your wrists as the pivots, but it's better if they don't; your hands should be parallel to your forearms (i.e. zero abduction).

If your abduction is zero, and the yaw of your forearms doesn't match the yaw of the keyboard (i.e. you have diagonal forearm positions, relative to the keyboard), then your keyboard needs to compensate by warping the optimal contoured layout, as the standard Maltron and Kinesis do. If your forearm yaw does match the keyboard yaw (i.e. you have no diagonal forearm position), then the front edge of each half of the keyboard must extend out further to support your entire palm than it would have to if you have a diagonal forearm position, which is why your palms fit on your keyboard but mine don't fit on mine.

On a standard Maltron or Kinesis, the keyboard yaw is zero, but as an average adult, in normal typing position with zero abduction, your forearm yaw is about 15 degrees; you can't use the keyboard with a forearm yaw of zero (i.e. parallel forearms) unless you hold your elbows in front of your stomach, which is uncomfortable. To fix the problem, you can widen the keyboard (increase the center-to-center distance from the standard 10 inches to at least 14) and keep the keyboard yaw at zero, or you can keep the 10 inches and increase the keyboard yaw to about 15 degrees, or, as in my design, eliminate the central numeric keypad, narrow the keyboard to a center-to-center distance of about 5 inches, and increase the keyboard yaw to 30 degrees.

Wow, your answers are like rading OpenBSD manual pages, so detailed! :)

Could we get a video of you typing on this beauty?

Offline Proword

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Re: Maltron offering "One-off" boards
« Reply #33 on: Sun, 27 January 2013, 03:12:05 »
Looks like I should have followed my instincts more thoroughly.  :-[ When I mentioned about all the measurements between boards, I was only concerned with the positions of the keys relative to each other, and not to the rest of the shell.  My incorrect assumption was that all my keyboards were made from the same mould, which obviously is not the case, looking at these piccies.  (When I first starting using this new board I was much more concerned with trying to work out where everything was and what the new symbols meant than whether it was the same size.)  Whilst the shells all have virtually the same footprint, and the key pads are pretty much the same distance from each other, it would appear that on my newest keyboard the keys have been moved holus bolus towards the back of the case, leaving a wider palm rest, which would account for there being more room to rest my hands.  The most obvious difference is that from the bottom of the thumb pads to the edge of the board.  There is also a slight difference in height and it would appear the angle of the palm rests relative to the edges, as well as the difference in the concavity.  However, as I mentioned previously, this is not the keyboard I used in my video and I never had a problem with it. 

But it's been interesting nonetheless.

Joe

My new keyboard is the clean one.    ;D




Maltron 3D Dual Hand (x4)
Maltron 3D Single Hand (x2 - L & R)

Many people think their lifestyle comes at a cost - but they are quite cool with that as long as somebody ELSE pays it.

Offline sordna

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Re: Maltron offering "One-off" boards
« Reply #34 on: Sun, 27 January 2013, 11:47:53 »
These pics remind me of the comparison we did on pronation angles between Maltron and Kinesis... Maltron's are more generous.
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard