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geekhack Community => Ergonomics => Topic started by: natas206 on Thu, 04 October 2012, 15:23:05

Title: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Thu, 04 October 2012, 15:23:05
Please share any thoughts and ideas of what you would like to see for the next version of Contoured keyboard.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: hoggy on Thu, 04 October 2012, 16:01:43
Built in roller mouse.
Central numpad that can be reprogrammed like the rest of the board.
Palm keys.
Dvorak only keyset
Track point - like m13
Full size function keys.

(these aren't my ideas... ).
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: dorkvader on Thu, 04 October 2012, 18:13:48
I'd like to see a fully-split design, and one where the function keys are mechanical (or at least a better RD than the one used now)

I also support Dvorak, but since it's all programmable (and pretty well implemented) it's not a big issue.

A GUI for Linux/mac/windows would be nice to speed the creation of keyboard profiles that could be stored on the keyboard. That's a good idea.

Finally: PBT. Dyesub preferable, but PBT. PBT has much better material properties than ABS (except since it's harder, it's more brittle, so if you hit it with a hammer several times, it'll shatter instead of just bending. This isn't much of a problem, though.) For a top-quality ergo keyboard, I'd say PBT is a must. At the very least, it's that extra bit to differentiate.

I feel like the Kinesis users use their keyboards a lot. On all my "daily driver" keyboards, I use PBT (Or POM), so the keys don't wear down that much. I'm trying to get a used Kinesis on eBay, and they all have ABS keycaps, with wear. This isn't a problem, but it's less than optimal, especially since the keycaps aren't easy to replace (The "row5" ones on the top 4 thumbkeys, especially)

I was going to humerously suggest an LCD panel, like Logitech, but I'd be afraid you'd take it seriously (Like WEY does)
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: jwaz on Fri, 05 October 2012, 03:09:05
The biggest things for me would be Colemak layout and PBT caps.

Maybe get rid of the non mechanical keys and add a trackpoint?
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Findecanor on Fri, 05 October 2012, 14:32:35
As a European, and a user of a European layout, I have to use the Alt Gr (right Alt) modifier extensively for typing special symbols, such as [ ] { } @ etc. I find it too hard to reach the thumb keys for Alt Gr on my Kinesis Advantage.
I would prefer a key in-between the finger and thumb groups, as that would most resemble how to reach the Alt Gr Key on a "flat" keyboard
I think that I could also be content if I could use one of the keys from the first row (nearest me) as thumb keys, which is not possible now because of an edge of the case being in the way.
If possible, I would also like to remap the Shift keys to easily accessible thumb keys, but that depends on there being some. I have even considered building my own Kinesis-inspired keyboard just to leverage the use of thumb keys, but I found that hard to do without a 3D-printer (even though I do build stuff out of sheet metal and cast stuff in urethane in my other hobby).

I have also found that I often place things on the area in the middle of the keyboard.. but because the case is curved there, things tend to fall off. If that space was flat, then my coffee mug would be much more stable. ;)

When you do look for idea on how to improve the keyboard, please do also look on this board for threads showing modifications that Kinesis users have made. People have put trackballs, trackpads and trackpoints in their Kinesises, and also added keys at various places. However, the amount of places where you as a mod'er can place keys is somewhat reduced by the places already being occupied by bolts, electronics, etc.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sun, 28 October 2012, 18:09:40
Just a few posts and almost all the mods I've done/talked about doing are already listed! Passionate crew!

1) Regarding keyboard layouts, yes it would be nice to have several options. I would still strongly suggest that blank keycaps be offered since so many people are professionals and touch typists and if someone wants a different layout they can have them layered or whatever.


2) Increasing the programability (although it's already the best out there), with the ability to have other layouts (Colemak) that don't get erased and macros that don't get erased if you change the layout.

I wish the Kinesis link in my sig had the pics :( I'll try to start adding them soon.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: tiarnachutch on Sun, 28 October 2012, 18:37:20
As a user who switches back and forth between laptop and desktop a lot, I'd like:
- TrackPoint
- Enter/delete, special characters in the "normal" qwerty locations (I don't mind the thumb cluster, I just don't want to have to use it for everything. Enter and delete throw me off quite a bit.
- Fully separable sides of the board (it's a little wide in the default configuration)
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sat, 03 November 2012, 01:07:46
- The ability for a user to create or switch on via programming a "KEYPAD" momentary key (not just the KEYPAD toggle) like the footswitch offers. Or add a key for this like I did on the left side so I can momentarily toggle for using the keypad with the right hand.

- I like the GUI idea for a visual and//or alternate way to select/modify all keyboard settings. If the firmware is made even more capable than it already is...it will be too complicated to set, reset, check, remember, or even know everything you can do, etc. And have it show the settings of a plugged in footswitch.

- ODD IDEA: I put a 4 port usb hub inside the split Kinesis for the trackpoint and scrollball, and I also plugged in a flash drive. The idea was that if I took the keyboard to another location, I would have the users manual, colemak layout settings files for win/mac, A list of the configurations, macros, and remappings, AND, I would be able to copy files from wherever I was into the keyboard....the memory is built in! The main reason was that when the keyboard is plugged into a computer there is another drive and you would have whatever information you needed on that drive. Obviously a very niche idea, you can just have a flash drive and have it plugged into the keyboard as it is now. But provisions for on board memory or be sure to continue to have a 'hollow' for a flash drive to sit without getting knocked.

- Make the indicator LEDs color selectable (red, blue, green. yellow, orange), and keep them nicely muted like they are now. Some keyboards the things are WAY TOO BRIGHT!

- Have the 4 LEDs farther apart so you can know which is lit without having to look down....just peripheral glance based on location would be enough.

- Change the connection for the footswitch from a male dongle sticking out of the back to a female plug-in, eliminate the extra female-female adapter, just plug the footswitch directly into the keyboard. I think Model #100 did this?

- Be sure not to use any buttons, switches, levers, or dip switches (ancient technology).

- Keep the plastic label on the bottom with the model and serial number. Lose the second label with the "instant configuration settings info" or if you must keep it, make it plastic, it's not much value when the printing wears off.

- The palm pads....maybe a dense memory foam or neoprene...
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: iMav on Fri, 30 November 2012, 02:01:31
Blank keycaps (preferably PBT) is all I require.  Otherwise, it is pretty much perfect for my needs.  ;)
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Fri, 30 November 2012, 15:44:12
We still have a couple sets of blank keycaps in inventory (black, $39). ABS, though. We are currently looking into several different possibilities for keycaps in the future. It's been a bit of challenge finding a factory that can do exactly what we would like.

Really appreciate all the great suggestions so far! 

Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: jpc on Sat, 22 December 2012, 15:08:27
The controller on mine has a bug or two. Sometimes the CAPS LOCK light stays on even after CAPS LOCK is deactivated; toggling CAPS LOCK again clears the light. Sometimes the controller thinks the Shift key is stuck down when it's not; tapping the Shift key again clears it. I get one of these glitches every few minutes on an Advantage USB built in 2011.

Everything else is already great... please don't change too much  ;D
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Mon, 24 December 2012, 11:30:23
The controller on mine has a bug or two. Sometimes the CAPS LOCK light stays on even after CAPS LOCK is deactivated; toggling CAPS LOCK again clears the light. Sometimes the controller thinks the Shift key is stuck down when it's not; tapping the Shift key again clears it. I get one of these glitches every few minutes on an Advantage USB built in 2011.

Everything else is already great... please don't change too much  ;D

Next time that problem occurs try holding down both left & right shift keys for a moment or two, should instantly clear the problem.

BTW, we're aware of this bug, although it seems strange you experience these problems so frequently. If you're using a KVM switch, USB hub, docking station, etc., it could increase the chances of these problems, since it seems to be some kind of timing delay that can occur where the computer sees the downstroke of a pressed shift key but never sees the upstroke. More than likely it's related to the firmware since it's something that's been reported over several years, although we've never really been able to consistently reproduce it here at Kinesis. The current firmware was designed by a third party who have since went out of business which is why we haven't been able to update it. However the new electronics will be our own and very early prototypes show this will not be a problem.

Send me an email (tech@kinesis.com) and I can save your info and possibly add you to a list of beta testers of the new electronics when they become available in 2013, if you're interested. We may be interested in your feedback since you experience these problems so frequently which isn't typical.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: wasabah on Thu, 27 December 2012, 01:10:04
Really interested in the next version of Contoured keyboard - do you have a rough idea when you might introduce it?
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Fri, 04 January 2013, 10:40:15
Really interested in the next version of Contoured keyboard - do you have a rough idea when you might introduce it?

If everything goes as planned, this year.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: TotalChaos on Fri, 11 January 2013, 22:13:22
Please share any thoughts and ideas of what you would like to see for the next version of Contoured keyboard.
I want a keyboard more or less like the Kinesis Advantage except flat with Cherry Red switches and works on PS/2.

You could add some extra keys to the middle too if u wanted.
You could add some extra keys to the thumb area too if u wanted.

It does not hurt to have some spare extra keys on the keyboard that the user can define as desired.


If you would have allowed me to buy a flat Kinesis Advantage with Cherry Red switches that works on PS/2 I would have already bought 3 of them a few months ago.

Instead I am being forced to spend thousands of $$$ on all sorts of different keyboards.

I have no problem with the pricing of your current Kinesis Advantage.
And your return policy is super duper nice.

But I honestly just don't think that crazy keywell shape is for me.  I have severe horrifically bad handpain problems but I have never ever craved or wanted a keyboard shaped like that.

I especially do not want to be tempted to lay my wrist on that high point of the keyboard.  That is incredibly unhealthy and directly causes RSI, Tendonitis, CTS and other horrible problems.  I like my normal flat cherry red keyboards.  There is no temptation to lay my wrist on anything.

Also I don't think my soft crashpads would work in the crazy shaped kinesis advantage.  I need a flat keyboard for that.

I need a keyboard that lets me SHIFT with my thumbs.

I would not mind SHIFTing with my feet from time to time.

If I bought a Kinesis I am sure I would buy the super deluxe version with everything.

I could have bought a Kinesis Advantage "for the hell of it".  "Just to give it a try."  And to show my support of your company because it seems like u r at least trying. (which is a lot more than I can say for most keyboard companies)  But I really really really do not think it will work out for me.

For the time being I am being forced to buy WASD keyboards or Filcos because they let me buy a flat keyboard compatible with crashpads, compatible with PS/2 with Red switches.

I am researching different substances to glue on top of my keycaps to have a healthier, softer, less violent, less painful keyboard experience.  But I don't have much useful to report on that other than 10A rubber is way too hard.

I do not require Red switches.  I would rather have a switch more intelligently designed than Red.  Its not so hard to do if you have money.  But among these simplistic, primitive antiergonomic switch choices presented by Cherry, Alps and Matias, Cherry Red wins.  But a better switch could be 100x better.

Whatever new keyboard you come out with, if it is rigged to not work on PS/2 then I won't buy it.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: TotalChaos on Sat, 12 January 2013, 22:03:54
Please share any thoughts and ideas of what you would like to see for the next version of Contoured keyboard.
I want a keyboard more or less like the Kinesis Advantage except flat with Cherry Red switches and works on PS/2.

You could add some extra keys to the middle too if u wanted.
You could add some extra keys to the thumb area too if u wanted.

It does not hurt to have some spare extra keys on the keyboard that the user can define as desired.


If you would have allowed me to buy a flat Kinesis Advantage with Cherry Red switches that works on PS/2 I would have already bought 3 of them a few months ago.

Instead I am being forced to spend thousands of $$$ on all sorts of different keyboards.

I have no problem with the pricing of your current Kinesis Advantage.
And your return policy is super duper nice.

But I honestly just don't think that crazy keywell shape is for me.  I have severe horrifically bad handpain problems but I have never ever craved or wanted a keyboard shaped like that.

I especially do not want to be tempted to lay my wrist on that high point of the keyboard.  That is incredibly unhealthy and directly causes RSI, Tendonitis, CTS and other horrible problems.  I like my normal flat cherry red keyboards.  There is no temptation to lay my wrist on anything.

Also I don't think my soft crashpads would work in the crazy shaped kinesis advantage.  I need a flat keyboard for that.

I need a keyboard that lets me SHIFT with my thumbs.

I would not mind SHIFTing with my feet from time to time.

If I bought a Kinesis I am sure I would buy the super deluxe version with everything.

I could have bought a Kinesis Advantage "for the hell of it".  "Just to give it a try."  And to show my support of your company because it seems like u r at least trying. (which is a lot more than I can say for most keyboard companies)  But I really really really do not think it will work out for me.

For the time being I am being forced to buy WASD keyboards or Filcos because they let me buy a flat keyboard compatible with crashpads, compatible with PS/2 with Red switches.

I am researching different substances to glue on top of my keycaps to have a healthier, softer, less violent, less painful keyboard experience.  But I don't have much useful to report on that other than 10A rubber is way too hard.

I do not require Red switches.  I would rather have a switch more intelligently designed than Red.  Its not so hard to do if you have money.  But among these simplistic, primitive antiergonomic switch choices presented by Cherry, Alps and Matias, Cherry Red wins.  But a better switch could be 100x better.

Whatever new keyboard you come out with, if it is rigged to not work on PS/2 then I won't buy it.

And real Cherry Red Function keys.  Doesn't matter too much where the keys are as long as they really exist without having to press Fn key and don't hurt my fingers to press them.

And preferably all-keycaps-same-profile.  None of this nonsense OEM screwball profile keycaps.  You are a real keyboard company so act like it.

And try not to waste a ton of deskspace.  The keyboard should be exactly as big as it needs to be and no bigger.

I don't care if the keyboard is split or not.  I will buy it either way as long as it works on PS/2.

Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Mon, 14 January 2013, 13:11:02
Thanks for the input TotalChaos. I would say you should try a Contoured keyboard before making some of those conclusions. Lots of research has gone into our design and it's stood the test of time (20 years), so although it looks crazy it's very effective.

If you're looking for something similar but flat keep your eye on the "Ergo Dox" (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=22780.0).

Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: TotalChaos on Tue, 15 January 2013, 03:17:27
Thanks for the input TotalChaos. I would say you should try a Contoured keyboard before making some of those conclusions. Lots of research has gone into our design and it's stood the test of time (20 years), so although it looks crazy it's very effective.
I think about buying one and trying it all the time.

But I can't visualize crashpads working right on those vertical keys unless I glue them into the top of each keycap.  So to try out the Kinesis Advantage requires a big committment.

Also as the pads age I assume they use their squishiness.  Since the pads would now be glued into place I can no longer replace them by themselves, I would have to throw away the whole keycap.  Unless you have some clever solution?

Does Kinesis Advantage use special keycaps?  If so how much does it cost for me to buy replacements?

Also I just noticed you said "Contoured" in your message.  Maybe we are each talking about a different keyboard?

Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: dorkvader on Tue, 15 January 2013, 09:23:30
natas206 is, of course, the expert here, but I believe the kinesis contoured refers to the advantage (with keywells). The kinesis does use special keycaps, to more naturally fit the hand, but people have experimented with replacing them with "normal" ones from a kit (like from WASDkeyboards) with some success.
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=23446.msg477340#msg477340
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: vivalarevolución on Tue, 15 January 2013, 20:45:32
natas206 is, of course, the expert here, but I believe the kinesis contoured refers to the advantage (with keywells). The kinesis does use special keycaps, to more naturally fit the hand, but people have experimented with replacing them with "normal" ones from a kit (like from WASDkeyboards) with some success.
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=23446.msg477340#msg477340

I'm currently using uniform spherical  PBT keycaps on my Kinesis Advantage. I like them better than the OEM keycaps. They have more space between each key and the heights are uniform. But that's only my experience.
 
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: TotalChaos on Tue, 15 January 2013, 23:26:23
I love uniform height keycaps!  At least on normal keyboards.  Where did you get yours from?
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: sordna on Thu, 17 January 2013, 22:05:51
Also as the pads age I assume they use their squishiness.  Since the pads would now be glued into place I can no longer replace them by themselves, I would have to throw away the whole keycap.  Unless you have some clever solution?

You plan to glue pads on top of the keycaps? Why not use o-rings, 40A o-rings from wasdkeyboards are superb, but if you want something really squishy and soft you can try black soft-landing pads from elite keyboards. Like o-rings these go UNDER the keycaps (between keycap and switch).

Quote
Does Kinesis Advantage use special keycaps?  If so how much does it cost for me to buy replacements?

I think a set is around $40 if I'm not mistaken.

Quote
Also I just noticed you said "Contoured" in your message.  Maybe we are each talking about a different keyboard?

Contoured are all those Kinesis keyboards that have the curvy keywells (which you ought to try before ruling them out by the way).
These keyboards have had various model variations over the years, with names like Essential, Classic, Advantage, etc, but all of them are "contoured".
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: TotalChaos on Fri, 18 January 2013, 04:58:43
Also as the pads age I assume they use their squishiness.  Since the pads would now be glued into place I can no longer replace them by themselves, I would have to throw away the whole keycap.  Unless you have some clever solution?

You plan to glue pads on top of the keycaps?
Yes that too, once I pick out 100% which material I Like best and how thick it should be.

But what I was referring to in the quoted post was the pads that go under the keys.

Right this exact second I am typing on hard plastic keys with pads underneath.  I am hoping and praying that once I have put padding on top that I can double my amount of typing per day.   But who knows... It might not make any difference.

Quote
Why not use o-rings, 40A o-rings from wasdkeyboards are superb,
For a healthy person they should keep you healthy for a long time I hope.

But they are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to hard for me.  10A O-rings would be much better.


Quote
but if you want something really squishy and soft you can try black soft-landing pads from elite keyboards. Like o-rings these go UNDER the keycaps (between keycap and switch).
Yes but they just kind of lay there.  They don't attach onto the keycap like an O-ring does.  Thus the need for gluing.

Quote
Quote
Also I just noticed you said "Contoured" in your message.  Maybe we are each talking about a different keyboard?

Contoured are all those Kinesis keyboards that have the curvy keywells (which you ought to try before ruling them out by the way).
These keyboards have had various model variations over the years, with names like Essential, Classic, Advantage, etc, but all of them are "contoured".
I have not ruled them out.  I just ruled them downwards to a lower priority. :)  For the reasons I gave.

If I ever finish all my current experiments then I might still get one for scientific experiments since they are so reasonably priced.

Thanx for your comments.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: sordna on Fri, 18 January 2013, 09:31:12
You do not need to glue the soft-landing pads, I used them on a keyboard myself. I do try to put them rotated so their corners help "stick" to the keycap sides but that's only to make the installation a little easier, and isn't necessary. Another approach is to hold the keyboard upside down so the pad doesn't fall when you put the keycap on.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: fatmav on Sun, 20 January 2013, 13:34:42
Here are my suggestions:

- At work I use the Advantage on a Mac and I often wish there are more than two modifiers in each thumb area. At present, I have to choose two out of {control, option, command} on each side.

- I think many agree that mechanical function keys are preferable to the current rubber keys. These rubber keys are just too small and too slippery.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: sordna on Tue, 22 January 2013, 11:25:43
Here are my suggestions for the next Advantage keyboard:

1. More keys. It desperately needs more keys, all keyboards have more keys today than they did 20 years ago, but the contoured has stayed behind in that department. At minimum it needs keys under the shifts and keys in the thumb area (as previous posters suggested) which should be placed along side the Backspace and Enter. This will allow having 2 Alts, 2 Controls, 2 Windows (or 2 Apple Command), a Menu key and a Keypad-shift or Compose key simultaneously and easily accessible on the main layer.
Palm keys should also be considered as an option...

2. The "tenting" angle between the 2 sides should be increased. It's only about 10 degrees from horizontal, so it's basically flat. Even the Freestyle (and Goldtouch) can do more than that, and the Maltron for the last several years have a more generous angle (about 20 degrees). Making it adjustable would be even better.

3. The keyboard should be fully split, with a long/detachable cable in the middle, allowing users to achieve any placement they want (tent, chair-mount, vertical, etc). This takes care of suggestion #2 as well.

4. Rubber keys should be thrown out and replaced with something better.

5. They keywell concave shape should be somewhat reduced. It's too pronounced in my opinion, which makes hitting the number row, and especially the arrows/braces a bit uncomfortable... we are almost doing a pulling action for those bottom keys.

6. Programming should allow mapping a *momentary* keypad shift on the keyboard. Currently only a toggle is allowed on the keyboard, and only the footswitch can do this action in a momentary fashion.

7. Integrated pointing device, either touchpad, or IBM (or unicomp) style trackpoint.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: dmnd on Thu, 24 January 2013, 03:22:08
I agree with a lot of the above, but here are a few extra suggestions:

Some of that got a bit unrelated to the Advantage but I hope it is still helpful. Here's a few obvious ones mentioned by others I want to re-emphasize:
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: sordna on Thu, 24 January 2013, 17:10:27
Welcome to GH dmnd! First post and a good one!
Open source keyboard firmware? Now that's a GREAT idea. Heck, the new Advantage could even use a teensy like the ErgoDox does, it's just $16 retail. Good analogy about routers, I recently got a new router BECAUSE it supported open source firmware (openwrt). Companies like Buffalo and Netgear not only support this, but even make it a selling point.
I think you're right, this would both help sales, and reduce feature development costs.

Kinesis, what do you think about that?
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: yensteel on Thu, 07 February 2013, 10:52:08
As a user of the Kinesis Freestyle 2 for Mac, I really enjoyed the mac special key compatibility. It works much better than software options, which have issues.

I don't think that it's necessary for the Advantage to have a mac version, but I think it will be great if it can remap Mac special function keys like brightness control and expose.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: cweimann on Mon, 18 February 2013, 17:41:18
#1 Full split meaning I want two separate pieces like the Freestyle.  The long cord option between the halves, like the freestyle, is important.

Rather than doing the long fixed cord a good idea may be to make the two halves independent keyboards each with their own USB cable.  Stick a USB hub in each half and you can plug them together if you want or run each back the PC or a USB Hub.   With this arrangement the end user can come up with any crazy arrangement they want since they can use any length USB cable they want for each hand.   I would expect the drawback to this being the higher expense of electronics in each half.

#2 See item #1

#3 See item #1

#4 See item #1
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: vatin on Mon, 18 February 2013, 18:24:53
As a daily user of the Advantage, here's my wish list.

- True split design.
- Mechanical keys instead of shameful rubber keys, or make it as embeded layers. Please this is the first priority.
- Application for easy programming and exchange of profiles.
- option for pbt or dyesub keycaps.
- Trackpoint
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Announ on Wed, 20 February 2013, 04:23:37
NKRO.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: sordna on Wed, 20 February 2013, 09:04:50
NKRO.

How many keys do you honestly need to hold down at the same time, and what keys are they? The keyboard can handle 6 keys plus modifiers (ctrl/alt/shift) so I'm trying to understand what is the scenario that needs more than 8-9 keys ??
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Announ on Wed, 20 February 2013, 10:18:12
How many keys do you honestly need to hold down at the same time, and what keys are they? The keyboard can handle 6 keys plus modifiers (ctrl/alt/shift) so I'm trying to understand what is the scenario that needs more than 8-9 keys ??
I play various rhythm games which require pressing more than 6 non-modifier keys at once.
I would be mostly happy with 8KRO for O2Jam, DJMAX and beatmania IIDX simulators; but only 10KRO or higher would cover all my needs (Pump It Up's Double mode).
I am also very interested in stenography, which requires (http://stenoknight.com/wiki/N-key_rollover) a NKRO-capable keyboard.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: TotalChaos on Wed, 20 February 2013, 11:21:06
NKRO is higher quality than not NKRO.  Ppl have a right to a quality keyboard if they want.

There are endless amounts of free retro video games available that need more than 6kro.  6kro keyboards at retro gaming parties are not thought of as "6kro".  Nobody at a party cares why the keyboard doesn't work.  They just say "The POS keyboard doesn't work!".  Its VERY annoying to try to play a game on a keyboard and it keeps screwing up.  I am sure Announ has experienced the same sorts of reactions.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: sordna on Wed, 20 February 2013, 12:20:19
While "endless free retro games require more than 6KRO" is an gross exaggeration (let's not forget most keyboards are not even 6KRO but 2KRO) I agree that supporting NKRO with a passive PS/2 adapter like Filco and other keyboards do would be great.
Note that the typical NKRO test that is advertised all over the Internet (hold-down-both-shifts-and-type-the-quick-brown-fox-jumps-over-the-lazy-dog) passes fine with 6KRO... most people, including the average gamer and even some keyboard companies, consider anything over 2KRO to be NKRO.

I am skeptical about NKRO over USB because it is associated with one ore more of these issues:
- Problems with OSX or Linux
- Ugly hacks like the keyboard presenting itself like 3 devices to the computer
- Issues with KVMs
- Issues with USB v1 ports
- Special drivers needed

So unless ALL of the above issues are 100% absent, I would prefer 6KRO (with NKRO via PS/2 adapter) rather than NKRO over USB.
A non-gaming keyboard should not sacrifice universal compatibility for an extreme gaming feature.
I think 18-KRO over USB like Leopold and other keyboards do, is the best compromise, and there is NO WAY you will need to hold down more than 18 keys simultaneously, even with 2 players playing an extreme music game on the same keyboard simultaneously :-)
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: TotalChaos on Wed, 20 February 2013, 13:56:12
While "endless free retro games require more than 6KRO" is an gross exaggeration
I just meant that there are more of them than you will ever play in your lifetime.  There may only be 300 of them, I don't know the exact number.  I haven't played them all and I never will.  Out of 40,000 retro games a finite number of them have multiple simultaneous players on the keyboard option.



Quote
(let's not forget most keyboards are not even 6KRO but 2KRO)
You are saying Commodore 64s had 2kro keyboards?  And they just used some sort of trick?

You are saying Amiga keyboards are 2kro?  That just cannot be possible.


Quote
I agree that supporting NKRO with a passive PS/2 adapter like Filco and other keyboards do would be great.
Yes.  It is the only intelligent solution.

Or if for some technical reason it cannot be done by your engineer, then just make the keyboard as PS/2.  Then sell a real adapter like the ones that are all over the net for $10.00 that connect PS/2 keyboards and mice to a USB port.


Quote
Note that the typical NKRO test that is advertised all over the Internet (hold-down-both-shifts-and-type-the-quick-brown-fox-jumps-over-the-lazy-dog) passes fine with 6KRO... most people, including the average gamer and even some keyboard companies, consider anything over 2KRO to be NKRO.
Is someone selling a 3kro keyboard and advertising it as NKRO?

Quote
I am skeptical about NKRO over USB because it is associated with one ore more of these issues:
- Problems with OSX or Linux
- Ugly hacks like the keyboard presenting itself like 3 devices to the computer
- Issues with KVMs
- Issues with USB v1 ports
- Special drivers needed
This is why USB 1.1 was obsolete since 1990 as far as keyboards and mice are concerned.  Maybe USB 1.1 was great for cameras and MP3 players but not for keyboards.

Quote
So unless ALL of the above issues are 100% absent, I would prefer 6KRO (with NKRO via PS/2 adapter) rather than NKRO over USB
The only workable way to get NKRO over USB is to throw USB 1.1 in the garbage where it belongs since 1990 and use USB 3.0, or at least USB2.0.
I am not advocating anyone to do this.  I am just saying giving information.  I only use PS/2 keyboards and mice since they don't even have the issues you mentioned.

Quote
A non-gaming keyboard should not sacrifice universal compatibility for an extreme gaming feature.
An NKRO keyboard has no drawbacks.
All PS/2 NKRO keyboards have universal compatiblity.  They work on everything.


Quote
I think 18-KRO over USB like Leopold and other keyboards do,
Doesn't it represent itself as more than 1 keyboard?  How does it get 18kro over USB 1.1?



Quote
... there is NO WAY you will need to hold down more than 18 keys simultaneously, even with 2 players playing an extreme music game on the same keyboard simultaneously :-)
Just so u know.... there are old games that let 3 ppl play on keyboard simultaneously. :)
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Wed, 20 February 2013, 14:24:23
How many people use the Contoured keyboard for retro gaming parties? :)

It wouldn't be ideal at all to use an ergonomic keyboard like the Contoured for two or three player games.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: pierats on Thu, 21 February 2013, 10:45:07
I second many of the previously suggested items (like real mechanical switches instead of the rubber function keys) however I have a few additional suggestions:

1. the arrow keys - can we please have a set of "real" arrow keys that can be operated by one hand? 
2. optionally, an onboard modifier key to switch the keypad on momentarily so that it can be used as arrow keys
3. additional thumb keys - like some of the mods I've seen on this site - this would allow easier multi key actions (like alt-tab)

Once you have a good list of features, I wonder if it would be helpful to create a poll to allow users to vote on the features they would most like to see in the new product?
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Thu, 21 February 2013, 11:19:00
That may be a good idea pierats.

I will say a number of the things mentioned in this thread we've already been planning on implementing. It's a little premature to say what exactly, but I'll let everyone know as soon as I can.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: TotalChaos on Thu, 21 February 2013, 11:35:05
If you make it good enough then I will buy one.  After testing it, if I really love it then I will have to buy 2 or 3 of them plus advertise them to all my friends, relatives and customers.

If you don't make it good enough then I won't buy one, simple as that. :)
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: eviltobz on Fri, 22 February 2013, 18:13:08
1. the arrow keys - can we please have a set of "real" arrow keys that can be operated by one hand? 
2. optionally, an onboard modifier key to switch the keypad on momentarily so that it can be used as arrow keys
1 - with the reprogrammability of the board i moved the bracket keys over to the left, and have all 4 cursors clustered on the right, i was even able to swap caps to support this. I set it up in the vim style < v ^ > but that doesn't feel as natural without the index finger on down, so i may swap it to ^ v < > in the future.

2 - yup, and the ability to remap the location of the keypad button - having it all the way up where it is means that i _never_ use mine, so all those extra characters i could type or whatnot are sadly lost to me :(

note - i've got an old classic model that I scored on ebay a few weeks back so I don't know if things have changed with the programming capabilities on newer versions.

i was interested in the integrated dvorak switching when i got mine. i'm learning colemak, but i thought i could remap the dvorak layer, then be able to switch back and forth with qwerty at will, so other people could use my machine without too many problems, but switching between the modes just does a fixed set of remappings, so wiped out changes that i'd made :(

yeah, the F-key row is evil and must be killed. i'm not bothered by having a few of them cheap and nasty buttons for very occasional things like remapping, but good F-keys which are in decently touch-typish positions are a must. As a windows programmer i need to reach for F5 or F12 all the time and they're in very odd places.

a few more normal keys would also be a good thing, check out the ergodox with an extra key for the little finger, and 3 additional keys for the index finger to reach for past the normal letter keys. Some of the rubbish that's cluttering up the default positions on the thumb clusters could move to them - home/end & page up/down are wasting valuable prime space there, thumbs are great for space, enter and backspace, maybe delete, but then it's all about modifiers. i have my shift keys pulled in there along with the ctrls & alts, i'd like to get the windows keys in there too, and the aforementioned, improved layer stuff.

Following on from the shift thing, when i first looked at exactly which keys go where, my thoughts went something like:
*why the hell aren't there shifts on the thumbs
*why the frack have they got the backspace & delete buttons, and the space & enter buttons the wrong way round. all those thumb buttons you want the home position to be in the middle for quick access. And they've even created proper home locators for your thumbs with the slanty buttons, so why oh why are they labelled back to front?

i think that having the entire set of home keys being a different profile for easy locatoring (including the thumbs, even if you have em labelled wrong) is a master stroke. way better than a little blip on f/j, but i do like the idea of everything being the same standard to aid with moving things around. I'm sure that the number of people in the world who want to set up their keyboard in a non-standard manner is tiny, but when you are creating such an outlandish monster, with such a high price tag, and such good programability I'm sure that it flips things on their head, so most of your customers are going to want to be able to fiddle a lot. As you control the plate, it'd be better if switch heights could be determined by that so they're more moveable. it's a definite nuisance having a key marked ctrl very close to the key that actually is ctrl, but due to the caps having different heights I'm not able to swap them.

I love my kinesis, but i have ordered a full ergodox kit and the bulk of the bits to create a second one, so i'm not sure that i'll be likely to pick up a new board from you guys, but i'd hope that my input has some value. I've started designing my ideal layout on the massdrop configurator page, so if you have an account with em you might be able to see my thoughts here: https://www.massdrop.com/ext/ergodox/?referer=5MP8XY&hash=2ff2682584ec1df5f6cd3e6a89568800
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Findecanor on Fri, 22 February 2013, 19:04:44
Yes, the layout editor on Massdrop is very good. I wish that there was something similar for the Kinesis. If you program it only on the keyboard itself, you don't have as much overview and there is a higher chance of getting lost.

I also miss the ability to have multiple layers on the Kinesis and being able to dedicate a key to being a layer toggle.

I would also like to be able to map a key to a code for which there wasn't already a dedicated key to begin with, for instance make a key into a media key.

Something that I would like personally would be to be able to map a modified key to Alt when I press Tab but to Ctrl when I press X, C or V... but that might be overkill. ;)
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: vatin on Sat, 06 April 2013, 04:11:12
*delete*
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: islisis on Sat, 13 April 2013, 05:19:16
A bit late to this party, but I think sordna's points are very good.

To me the most important are:

- Inward tenting of the thumbwells, to allow for flexion/radial thumb activation. Research is required, but I think extended key holds lead to dangerous tendon problems at the current angle

- Keys next to backspace/space would accomodate thumb-shifting

- Left hand trackpoint next to g or t, 'click'able. Perhaps mirrored internal mounts to allow changing to right hand side, with some simple modding

- Mirrored mouse buttons next to home/end, pgup/dn. Mirrored is to allow one and two hand operation. 3-4 buttons in L shape

- Clickable scrollwheel below trackpoint

- Lower profile and increased outward tenting for each side

- A sensor on each side to detect whether the keyboard is being used one or two handed, to invoke layer for mouse keys etc.

- Mod consideration? Allow room under center space for wireless charging panel - also make the case flat here to place our phones

- Lower force tactile keys (if only Cherry could make them...)

- Finally, a PR campaign to compare ergonomics with touchscreens :/ We are losing the fight very badly

Well, in V3 perhaps ;) Good luck with the release!
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: davkol on Wed, 17 April 2013, 07:16:02
BTW some sort of compatibility with rollermice would be nice.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: automator on Sat, 20 April 2013, 23:27:40

An update would be very welcome.
Priorities for me, I would defiantly be willing to pay a premium for these features:
1.True split design!!!
2.Extra keys (for index fingers, like ergodox, for macros etc, and extra thumb buttons).
3.Wireless option (bluetooth, both sides independently wireless)

Nice to haves:
Normal keys for function keys... or at least improve the design, these always seem to be the first to show wear and break for me.
Blank keycaps

Random ideas/thoughts
*Adjustable thumbkey module position / angle (i've never really felt like I needed that, but just seems like a cool idea...)
*All my problems come from using the pinky in any lateral movement or resistance so this is why I'm interested having more thumb keys and keys on the inside to map.
*Offer a bag or case
* Hacker-friendly platform, eg modular design, blank keycaps, open firmware (or just, replaceable), maybe have a hacker edition available, or accommodating custom orders (diff switches, cap labels, etc)
* Could portability be a factor in design? obviously, so long as it doesn't take away from feel/function.

Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: mannelig on Sun, 21 April 2013, 05:26:37
1) Integrated trackpoint or trackball or scrollwheel at least. Kinesis is so good what I don't to take my hands off it.
2) More keys (two below Shift buttons, more at thumb clusters, below palm maybe).
3) MX keys instead of rubber F-row (not top priority).
4) True split would be interesting.
+ maybe even some place in the right end of the keyboard to insert some keys for Cyrillic users?
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: vvp on Mon, 22 April 2013, 13:53:12
I'm kinesys advantage user for almost 10 years now. Here is my wish list:

1) thumb clusters horizontally moved do the keyboard sides by half a key
2) top row thumb cluster keys (Alts, Ctrls) moved by another half to the sides (so the center of the keys will be just above the boundary of the keys below)
3) make 1x2 thumb cluster keys only 1x1.5 and leave them aligned to the top (this makes it PgDown/End keys overhang by 0.5 down - it is good since it is easier to hit them without hitting Etner/Delete too)
4) add at least one more column of 3 keys (1x1 size) to the middle side of both hand wells (similar as ErgoDox but 1x1 size only) put them down as much as possible so that they do not collide with the thumb clusters)
5) add the very bottom keys for pinkies
6) get rid of the rubber keys completely (maybe support more than one layer to reach them); the point is that (except the very first one on the left side and the very last one on the right side) they are almost impossible to hit accurately without looking; or you can keep them but they are almost useless :)
7) keep remap and macros (in addition to adding more layers)
8) support mouse keys (let keyboard present to the OS as both mouse and keyboard)
9) allow writing macros with define-able timing delays between keys (mouse events) being sent
10) make firmware open (so that we can modify it if we do not like something) or at least use some very common controller (like atmel avr) and provide space for ICSP so that we can soldier the header in and replace the firmware (if you think there there is so much IP in a simple keyboard firmware that you cannot make it open from the beginning)

If you do all of this I'm sure to buy one ... if you do it before I make one for myself :)
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: ElectronicFur on Tue, 23 April 2013, 02:14:31
I've only had my Advantage for a short while, so not long enough to contribute too many observations, especially as I've also switched to Colemak 100% on the keyboard. So still finding my way.

The major thing for me is the position of the thumb clusters. For me also they should be moved horizontally to the keyboard sides by half a key at least. At the moment I home my thumbs on the Backspace and Space keys as Delete and Enter are too far.

Some of the things already mentioned by others that appeal to me are updatable/open firmware, and a split design and another column of keys like Ergodox.

Lastly, get rid of the ugly off-centred logo. It looks naff. I'd prefer no logo at all, but if your marketing department insists then just have the Kinesis logo discretely in the centre. To have such a cool looking keyboard on my desk, and then have it spoiled with this off-centred Advantage Pro logo bugs me every time I look at it  :mad: I might have to stick something over it  ;D

Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: vvp on Tue, 23 April 2013, 03:00:35
Yes, I prefer split design too. I forgot to mention it. It is not that important to me though.

I would probably like a track point too but I do not have clear opinion where to put it. This may need a prototype to check it out. It should be placed carefully so that it is not too far from fingers/thumbs and especially it cannot interfere with typing. Probably somewhere around thumb clusters.
A) One option seems to be at the location of the current Alt keys (there would be a space there since the top row is supposed to be moved by 1 key to the sides). In this case it would need to be about as tall as the keys in the thumb cluster top row.
B) Other option seems to be below the new positions for PageDown/End keys. In this case it should be smaller than the PageDown/End keys and the thumb cluster should be moved up by half a key too. This looks better. Based on how shiny my 1x2 keys are, I'm clearly hitting them at the top half so a bit of move up should do well.
C) Below the new 1x1.5 Enter/Delete keys is an option too. This would want the move of the thumb cluster up by 0.5 key as in option B. Again the track point should be fairly low - at most as high as pressed PageDown/Enter/End/Delete keys.
And if it is there it should be on both sides.

Moving thumb clusters not only to the side by about 0.5 key but also up seems to be a good idea regardless.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: automator on Tue, 23 April 2013, 12:48:13
Adjustable thumb cluster seems like a good idea instead : I wouldn't want mine any closer
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Input Nirvana on Mon, 29 April 2013, 14:34:19
The thumb clusters on my Split Kinesis are going to be put on a gimbal so they can be angled independently of the key wells. I have 1 axis, but the second axis is still to be determined. Then there's the spacing adjustability, I have not worked on that yet.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: lally on Fri, 10 May 2013, 14:02:58
Hi.  I've been on various Kinesis Advantage (a white PS/2, now two Black USBs (one for home, one for office)) keyboards since 1997.  I'm a programmer, and I work at a software shop.  There are at least a hundred Kinesis Advantage keyboards there.  I *strongly* suggest looking at programmers quite seriously.  First, we're not nearly as price sensitive as others.  You can make a programmer-specific Advantage for $100 more and most of us wouldn't bat an eye.  (if you feel you have to sell that, just refer to http://xkcd.com/1205/ ).  Second, there are a *lot* of us, and we often run out of computer stuff to buy, but still have a certain joy in buying more random computer stuff.

The first, and most ridiculous weakness of the keyboard is the rubber top row.  Please, move the keys PrintScr - Progrm to the center, and give us real Esc and Function keys.  The Esc key is _critical_ (ref: vim), and the Function keys are as important as the lesser-used punctuation on the primary keyboard. 

Second is the lack of a pointing device.  The reason that this is so important is the amount of desk space that the advantage takes up.  Programmers don't need anything fancy here, but we have to use the web like everyone else.  A trackpoint between (and slightly below) the thumb clusters would be ideal.  Consider pluggable modules for a trackpoint or track-pad.  Again, for us, money's really not the problem.

Third is the layout.  I've already covered the top rubber row.  But, the arrow keys and brackets are in an awful place.  I think you should move the arrow keys into a proper cluster of four to the right of the status lights (and above the right control key).  The brackets should move to the top row, next to F12 (assuming you'd follow my advice on the top row).

For the new Esc/F1-F12, trackpoint, and moved arrow/brackets, I'd hand you $500 in cash without hesitation.

Make it in topre switches and you can ask for more.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: islisis on Fri, 10 May 2013, 18:27:53
great post, i'm imagining a shop of 100 advantages right now :D
with that experience one thing i thought you might have tried is programming your keyboard for more layout functionality... for example, i count >600 global hotkeys you can create by mapping dual-role modifier keys, with 100 more per thumb key modded to the keyboard - and just for one hand. in fact, for this reason DR keys in firmware would be a truly useful feature in new programmable kinesis keyboards

you can never have enough keys... but for productivity it's more important to think about ensuring hands never stray from the home position designated so clearly by the kinesis's layout. so, i'm a fan of its minimalism

what i really loved however is your suggestion for topre >< i don't even dare dream that combination in low force...
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Findecanor on Fri, 10 May 2013, 20:06:39
Make it in topre switches and you can ask for more.
I don't find Topre switches to be particularly ergonomic. They make my hands ache after I have used them for a long time. If you want rubber dome, consider the ErgoMatic - a rubber dome, licensed Maltron clone.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sat, 11 May 2013, 01:10:14
Hi.  I've been on various Kinesis Advantage (a white PS/2, now two Black USBs (one for home, one for office)) keyboards since 1997.  I'm a programmer, and I work at a software shop.  There are at least a hundred Kinesis Advantage keyboards there.  I *strongly* suggest looking at programmers quite seriously.  First, we're not nearly as price sensitive as others.  You can make a programmer-specific Advantage for $100 more and most of us wouldn't bat an eye.  (if you feel you have to sell that, just refer to http://xkcd.com/1205/ ).  Second, there are a *lot* of us, and we often run out of computer stuff to buy, but still have a certain joy in buying more random computer stuff.

The first, and most ridiculous weakness of the keyboard is the rubber top row.  Please, move the keys PrintScr - Progrm to the center, and give us real Esc and Function keys.  The Esc key is _critical_ (ref: vim), and the Function keys are as important as the lesser-used punctuation on the primary keyboard. 

Second is the lack of a pointing device.  The reason that this is so important is the amount of desk space that the advantage takes up.  Programmers don't need anything fancy here, but we have to use the web like everyone else.  A trackpoint between (and slightly below) the thumb clusters would be ideal.  Consider pluggable modules for a trackpoint or track-pad.  Again, for us, money's really not the problem.

Third is the layout.  I've already covered the top rubber row.  But, the arrow keys and brackets are in an awful place.  I think you should move the arrow keys into a proper cluster of four to the right of the status lights (and above the right control key).  The brackets should move to the top row, next to F12 (assuming you'd follow my advice on the top row).

For the new Esc/F1-F12, trackpoint, and moved arrow/brackets, I'd hand you $500 in cash without hesitation.

Make it in topre switches and you can ask for more.

A few points...
FIRST, you can remap the Kinesis extensively...several programmers have put the F-key row on the number row on the second layer...

SECOND, a pointing device is screaming to be matched with the keyboard...but I disagree with your comment that the Kinesis takes up a lot of desk space. It certainly LOOKS larger than the dimensions actually are. It's similar in size to a standard keyboard, but of course not a TKL.

Third-REMAP!!!!

On the pointing device thoughts...the Split Kinesis project (see my sig) has an IBM Trackpoint integrated into the right key well. I used an Apple Magic Mouse 360 degree scrollball for the left finger in the nook between the "B" key and the left thumb cluster. I also have had the idea of having a trackpad mounted to the right key well, but haven't engineered that idea yet.

I spend some time at various Silicon Valley giants (Apple, Google, Facebook, Yahoo, Ebay/Paypal) and I see quite a few Kinesis Advantages, definitely a prime market for this product.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: vvp on Sat, 11 May 2013, 05:39:57
... The Esc key is _critical_ (ref: vim), and the Function keys are as important as the lesser-used punctuation on the primary keyboard.

... I've already covered the top rubber row.  But, the arrow keys and brackets are in an awful place.  I think you should move the arrow keys into a proper cluster of four to the right of the status lights (and above the right control key).  The brackets should move to the top row, next to F12 (assuming you'd follow my advice on the top row).
...

Every vim user should swap CapsLock and Esc keys. If you did not do it yet then try it out. It is great.

Remap is your friend. But its usefulness is limited by small amount of physical modifiers.

E.g. remap would allow me to also avoid the rubber keys completely. They are hard to hit without looking. The biggest problem I see with the current kinessis is that it does not have enough modifier keys. It is not easy to find key combinations to hook remaps too. Hooking them to the common Ctr/Alt/Shft modifiers can often clash with applications. We are actually at least 2 commonly used modifiers short now (left and right Windows keys). Keymap layer can mitigate this problem for people who do not mind foot switch. I find a foot switch uncomfortable. And keypad button position is terrible. And it has layer-toggle kind not a layer-shift kind. From this point of view adding two inner columns of keys as ErgoDox did is a great idea. Even the new bottom edge pinky keys are good. Not so easy to reach but, well, if someones RSI prevents their use they can be left unused. We have currently more or less unused rubber keys row now so it should not be a big deal :)

Oops, talking too much.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sat, 11 May 2013, 09:02:49
I failed to mention that a few added keys to the Kinesis is a 100% WIN! There are a couple threads on GH where up to 6 keys are added (available on the Kinesis matrix). And, as an added bonus a couple of the added keys can be added as the now-famous 'palm keys' aiding in RSI.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: sordna on Sat, 11 May 2013, 11:30:18
I failed to mention that a few added keys to the Kinesis is a 100% WIN! There are a couple threads on GH where up to 6 keys are added (available on the Kinesis matrix). And, as an added bonus a couple of the added keys can be added as the now-famous 'palm keys' aiding in RSI.

Up to 6 keys you said?? Count again, I added eight (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=26579.0) :-)

(http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=26579.0;attach=3388;image)
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: lally on Sat, 11 May 2013, 21:35:00
Wow, great response!

I'm an Emacs-er first, with some vimming for quick edits (configuration files, etc).  So, my caps-lock is mapped to Control.  Additionally, the "delete" key is swapped with Alt (to act as Meta). 

More than that, I'm not going to do.  First, I use laptops pretty regularly, so extensive macro-programming is just going to confuse me.  Second, the keybindings I've got in Emacs are already pretty complex, I don't want to have to complicate this further.  The interactions between macros and the Emacs input state can be complicated.  Certainly more than I want to deal with.  With all the space it takes, I really shouldn't have to.  Mapping the numeric keys to F1-F10 could work if there was a "Fn" key of some sort.  Emacs already uses Control-[Number] and Alt-[Number], and I've got Win-[Number] mapped to virtual desktops.

But really, the rubber keys are awful.  They have no business being there.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: automator on Sun, 12 May 2013, 11:58:57
There are at least a hundred Kinesis Advantage keyboards there.  I *strongly* suggest looking at programmers quite seriously.

Agree totally. 
Programmer, Emacs user when I can but I float between a lot of editors, OS's, etc.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: regicide on Sun, 12 May 2013, 20:10:12
The first, and most ridiculous weakness of the keyboard is the rubber top row.  Please, move the keys PrintScr - Progrm to the center, and give us real Esc and Function keys.  The Esc key is _critical_ (ref: vim), and the Function keys are as important as the lesser-used punctuation on the primary keyboard. 

Second is the lack of a pointing device.  The reason that this is so important is the amount of desk space that the advantage takes up.  Programmers don't need anything fancy here, but we have to use the web like everyone else.  A trackpoint between (and slightly below) the thumb clusters would be ideal.  Consider pluggable modules for a trackpoint or track-pad.  Again, for us, money's really not the problem.

Third is the layout.  I've already covered the top rubber row.  But, the arrow keys and brackets are in an awful place.  I think you should move the arrow keys into a proper cluster of four to the right of the status lights (and above the right control key).  The brackets should move to the top row, next to F12 (assuming you'd follow my advice on the top row).

As a vim user you should either map esc to caps lock or learn to love ctrl-c, reaching all the way to the top row is really wasteful especially considering how easily remapping keys on the kinesis is.

I actually love the placement of the arrow keys, and much prefer their current position to the idea of moving them to a middle cluster although I could always remap them back to their current positions if there was space to do so.

Sometimes I have to take a quick glance to find the { and } keys as I am used to them being right of the p, however I would hate for the brackets to be on function row (even if they were mechanical) simply because that increases the distance to them and as a programmer I use these keys often (an analysis of my code and typing shows I use bracket keys more than any number keys and even parts of the alphabet).

If you managed to get a nice trackpad in there with decent multitouch support under Linux (really only want 2 finger scrolling and 2/3 finger right/middle click) I would be very happy.
For examples of good trackpads see the Macbook Air, Thinkpad X1 Carbon or Logitech T650 (although this lacks multitouch support under Linux :( )


I really like the ability to program my Kinesis without software, please keep this, as a Linux user and someone who carries my keyboards between many systems I love being able to trivially remap keys on the keyboard itself.

I would also quite like the ability to get some cherry blue keyswells (even if they are sold separately and require manual installation), even though I cant use them at the office I do miss having them at home (the kinesis click isn't quite as satisfying).
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: dorkvader on Mon, 13 May 2013, 09:52:37
Given that the keyboard is set to a specific width anyway (as it should, to account for the shoulders), the extra space in the middle is begging for something useful: a trackpad or trackball or the like.
Myself, I'd just put a middle click button there for rapid access to linux paste.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: regicide on Thu, 16 May 2013, 02:25:59
Thinking about it a bit more I think it would be cool if we had another column on the inside of the 2 hand wells, namely to the right of g and the left of h.
See the ergodox for a picture of this (http://ergodox.org/Images/ErgoDox_001_L.png)
This would allow me to even further reduce the load of my pinkies without overburdening my thumbs.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: fatmav on Sat, 18 May 2013, 13:17:29
Given that the keyboard is set to a specific width anyway (as it should, to account for the shoulders), the extra space in the middle is begging for something useful: a trackpad or trackball or the like.
Myself, I'd just put a middle click button there for rapid access to linux paste.

I tried putting a trackpad there once, but it was quite uncomfortable since I use pointing devices such as trackball or trackpads with my wrist resting on a surface. But I have some high hopes for the coming Leap motion controller. It may be very cool if, for example, I can just swipe my right hand to the left hand side of the keyboard to do a browser-back.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: seva1385 on Sun, 26 May 2013, 17:51:23
Please share any thoughts and ideas of what you would like to see for the next version of Contoured keyboard.

Open sourced firmware! Why rely on a third party provider who is prone to go out of business and considerably increases the price of the finished product, when you can get it from the faithful enthusiasts, who are probably at least as well equipped, and the pool of them will outlast the product?

For example, chrisandrea put together an excellent piece of code, though his approach relies on hardware modification and uses different Atmel microcontroller.

As of now, macro feature is not very useful, and the lack of keypad shift, or some other modifier, robs the user of some useful shortcuts.

It would be nice if you provided some add-on to make the keyboard wireless.

Other than that, excellent keyboard! Now that I discovered it, there is no going back. Thank you!

Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Keyboard search on Tue, 18 June 2013, 08:47:40
I would like to see an option for Bluetooth connectivity (with Windows, Mac/iOS, and Android compatibility) - could be similar to how KBTalking does their bluetooth

I would like to see function key row with real keys and key switches.

Highest quality keycap material would be nice; doubleshots if that will make it any nicer.

Above all, I would like an option to buy a Kinesis Advantage with numpad designed in between the two halves.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: dorkvader on Tue, 18 June 2013, 12:44:12
I would like to see an option for Bluetooth connectivity (with Windows, Mac/iOS, and Android compatibility) - could be similar to how KBTalking does their bluetooth

I would like to see function key row with real keys and key switches.

Highest quality keycap material would be nice; doubleshots if that will make it any nicer.

Above all, I would like an option to buy a Kinesis Advantage with numpad designed in between the two halves.
Interestingly enough, kinesis did used to use doubleshot keycaps. I, however, would like to see some PBT for better durability.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Input Nirvana on Tue, 18 June 2013, 18:18:57
Numpad:
I use the embedded keypad in the right key well, it seems to be very functional. Do you think it's a drawback? Have you tried using it? Just curious.
Maltron has the numpad in the middle, no doubt it's convenient if you don't have the second  layer.

Doubleshot keycaps:
I'm using the original white with blue legends doubleshot keycaps on my black Kinesis Advantage with o-rings because they feel better. I prefer blank keys...but these doubleshots feel better, so I use them. The keyboard deserves higher, rather than lesser quality key caps. Sure would like to get blank PBT, but there are 2 ways. 1) go to SP and pay a fortune for a set, and 2) get all keycaps except just a few. I have a thread about this, but it's was abandoned a little over a year ago. I'll wait to see what Kinesis does with the new model before I make an effort in the key cap direction again.

One note: The white doubleshots do not fall off the switches on the much older (S/N #31,XXX) Kinesis they came from. But several will fall off my newer (S/N #81,XXX) Kinesis Advantage. Others have noted this. Maybe the newer Cherry stems are a fraction smaller.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: vatin on Tue, 18 June 2013, 18:55:57
Embeded keypad is only useful only with quick access to it. Palm key mod makes that possible for me. Rubber keys are simply unacceptable.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Input Nirvana on Tue, 18 June 2013, 19:32:49
Palm key mod is beyond excellent.

Using the embedded numpad is a 2 button access, right? So for just a few numbers, it's a no go, so I use the number row, but anything else it seems to be good.

The Split Kinesis I've done replaced the 18 rubber keys with 12 key switches. The remaining 6 keys were to be relocated, but I only actually moved 2, before I had to stop. I have to locations for the other 4, but work is not done.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: TGVarik on Fri, 12 July 2013, 22:49:33
I have to second (eighth? ninth maybe?) the request for open firmware. On-board remapping is great, but what I'll really need once I get my employer to let me use an Advantage at work is the ability to switch at will between a traditional QWERTY layout and a customized Colemak. I'd love to be able to replace the built-in Dvorak with a custom map, and switch it out with the same key combo.

Full split with adjustable tent would be nice, too. But if I can only have one wish, I'll take the open firmware.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Sciurid89 on Sun, 28 July 2013, 17:24:09
I'd like one where the bottom row of keys is chopped off entirely (arrows and brackets and whatever on an altgr layer instead) and the thumb clusters moved *down* (toward the desk) and in toward the keys, so that I can actually reach the thumb buttons. The tendons that pull the thumbs out were just killing me after using it for a week.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: shkm on Mon, 05 August 2013, 10:03:04
Is there a new estimated release date on this thing? I'm eager to buy a Kinesis, but I'm holding back for the new one. If the feature requests are anything to go by, the new one is going to be awesome!

Also, it would be really nice if you guys could come up with an official blank key model (i.e. not exclusively available directly from Kinesis — I don't live in the US so import duty costs a fortune).
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: kaltar on Tue, 03 September 2013, 21:28:44
Some more:
- a programable additional layer, so when the button is pressed, all keys can be switched to another layout (Currently doing such things with Controllermate)
- the rubber function keys are crap! please change them for real mechanical keys.
- selling replaceable keys :) so the look can be changed without extreme mods.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: uberben on Wed, 04 September 2013, 22:47:44
I found this thread a bit late, but will add my voice. I've been using a Kinesis Essential daily for the past two years. These suggestions are roughly in order of importance to me.

1. Open source firmware (and even open source hardware)
   - I see this as the most valuable feature. It should cut your development costs and since many of your customers are developers, I imagine it would be a selling feature too.
2. Regular Cherry function keys
3. Function layer shift key in the main keyset, not just on the foot switch
4. Trackpoint/trackball option
   - I can see many users wanting only one or the other, or even wanting none at all. Trackpad is less critical as it is pretty easy to put an Apple Magic Trackpad or other off the shelf trackpad on top of the keyboard.
5. Detachable USB cable
   - having connections for both mini and micro USB would be a bonus for those that already have tons of spare cables scattered around, but never seem to have one of each
6. Bluetooth option
   - for acceptable battery life, it would require efficient firmware that puts the keyboard to sleep often, but also wakes up instantly. As an example, I have two wireless mice, both Logitech, and the older one has a lifespan of about a week, while the newer one has a life span of about two years. Some of that difference is probably the modern hardware, but I suspect that a lot of it is the firmware.
7. Blank keycap and/or Dvorak only option
8. Regular profile keycaps only
   - if I recall correctly, the only odd caps are the tall thumb keys, the 1.25 keys, and the '3' and '8' keys. The 1.25 keys and the out of place number keys can probably be switched to regular caps by adjusting the tilt of the actual keyswitch (though I haven't spent anything on R&D to confirm this). The tall thumb keys might be replaceable by staggering a separate pcb into the thumb cluster. A little hard to explain in text, but instead of having the single PCB in each thumb cluster that is the shape of a 3x3 grid with the corner taken out, you could make a PCB the size of a 2x3 grid with a bit of an extra lip at the top edge, then you can make the taller keys on a 1x2 grid PCB with a bit of a lip at the bottom edge. Rest the smaller board on the larger one and solder some pins through, and you should be able to use the same profile keycap as the home and page up keys. I imagine this would add to your manufacturing costs, but perhaps it would save you some since the keycaps would be regular profiles.
9. Reduce the height of the keyboard
   - I love the well shape (the lowest row is the only one that is a tad awkward to reach, but it is much less awkward than it would be if I tried to press the same keys on a traditional keyboard, so I'm happy) and the wrist rest area is pretty necessary to accommodate those raised keys, but I suspect that you could shave a bit off the bottom of the case under the key wells, even just by using lower profile rubber bumpers. I find that I can never find a chair that is tall enough to sit comfortably with my Kinesis on top of the desk, and the Kinesis doesn't fit in most keyboard trays either.
10. Increase the tenting angle slightly
   - this might go against the height reduction in the previous point, but I can see it being more comfortable
11. The current Kinesis models are great for modding. There is lots of space inside and the key remapping makes things easy to customize. Keep this up. Additionally, I know that the current models have some unused keys in the matrix. If you could break out some pins to these blank parts of the matrix, perhaps with non-populated .1" headers, this would make life for the modding community much easier. Adding extra keys like the palm keys many users are adding would then be trivial, but could be left to the end user so they aren't forced on anyone that doesn't want them. You could even use this to your advantage in the future by offering different upgrade packages such as a new top shell with pre-installed palm switches.
12. Split option
   - I would definitely consider chair mounting a split version. I liked the one suggestion of having each half be a separate keyboard, but I know that some operating systems can't handle dual keyboards very well (if I recall correctly, if you hold shift on one keyboard on a Mac, the second keyboard's keypresses are not shifted). This could also limit the possible features in an open source firmware such as an inverted number/symbol row since the press of the shift key would need to be known at the keyboard level, not just at the operating system level.
12. Headphone port
   - perhaps not all that useful, but one feature I've wished for on occasion
13. Reduced price
   - I'm pretty sure that the difference between the current Pro and the regular models in an additional $1 memory chip, a $0.50 toggle switch, and a different colour top case (and perhaps also a slightly different firmware). I'm not sure if the Pro significantly subsidizes the price of the regular model at this time, but I know that both models are prohibitively expensive for myself and others. I lucked out and got a like-new Kinesis Essential (a roughly 10 year old board, I think) for about 1/3 retail of a new board, otherwise I probably couldn't have bought it. I understand how retail works and that you guys need to make a profit in order to keep making these things, which we all want, but bringing the price for a basic model down from about $300 to $200 would make it immensely more accessible.

I've had lots of ideas (these and other), but really the fantastically unique and comfortable keyboard is what inspired all those ideas. If the next model were nearly identical to this one, I would still be very happy with it. Thanks for an awesome board, and I look forward to the new one.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: kaltar on Thu, 05 September 2013, 01:16:31

13. Reduced price
   - I'm pretty sure that the difference between the current Pro and the regular models in an additional $1 memory chip, a $0.50 toggle switch, and a different colour top case (and perhaps also a slightly different firmware). I'm not sure if the Pro significantly subsidizes the price of the regular model at this time, but I know that both models are prohibitively expensive for myself and others. I lucked out and got a like-new Kinesis Essential (a roughly 10 year old board, I think) for about 1/3 retail of a new board, otherwise I probably couldn't have bought it. I understand how retail works and that you guys need to make a profit in order to keep making these things, which we all want, but bringing the price for a basic model down from about $300 to $200 would make it immensely more accessible.


Amen.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: uberben on Thu, 05 September 2013, 08:55:54
14. Integrated Qi charger option
   - like many others, I ofter put my phone down on top of my keyboard. If there was built in Qi inductive charging, which many phones come with these days, that would be awesome. I would suggest making it optional to help keep at least some model available at a lower price point. Perhaps offering an upgrade kit would work too.
15. Dual bluetooth/USB functionality
   - this would be great for when you take your kinesis away from your laptop/phone/tablet that has bluetooth and want to connect it to your desktop which might not have it. It would also remove the need to sync with new computers if only used briefly. Charging the battery over this USB connection would be great too, and if you can turn off the bluetooth radio during charging, it might even charge faster.

Ok, back to work.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Findecanor on Thu, 05 September 2013, 09:09:08
15. Dual bluetooth/USB functionality
Not a bad idea. Many Kinesis users use the keyboard in the lap.
Title: When is the new Advantage model coming out?
Post by: petreza on Mon, 14 October 2013, 18:32:26
When is the new Advantage model coming out?
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: vatin on Fri, 18 October 2013, 22:01:40
Hi, any updates?
Could you share the main design decision so far?
Is it going to remain as one piece or totally split? Contoured? (hopefully).
I also keep my eye on Nexus/ErgoGP. Whichever is better gets my money.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: kaltar on Mon, 21 October 2013, 11:55:08
I also keep my eye on Nexus/ErgoGP. Whichever is better gets my money.

If I get the nexus and the new Advantage is better, I'll get both!
Title: Re: When is the new Advantage model coming out?
Post by: petreza on Tue, 22 October 2013, 21:42:54
OK.Maybe my question was too specific, so let me change it:

I need to get Advantage/Advantage Pro soon but would really hate it if I bought one now and the new, more capable, model comes out within a month or two. If it comes out 6 months or a year later I would not mind.
So:
Could someone who knows confirm that a new model is indeed in the works.
And,
Any idea approximately how soon can we expect it?

Thanks!

When is the new Advantage model coming out?
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Wed, 23 October 2013, 17:04:01
Hello petreza, sorry I missed your post. The new version will not be available within the next two months. We were hoping by the end of this year but it's looking like early next year.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: synerr on Tue, 29 October 2013, 06:46:05
Bit late, but my 2c as a user of 2 months:

 - proper function keys not those horrible rubbery things at the top

 - more keys

 - more realistic pricing - a lot of us have bought the kinesis out of necessity not vanity and paid for it out of own pockets not medical insurance.  Got the kinesis as a more affordable (with great difficulty) over the maltron and still walked away with a bitter after taste of having been ripped off.

 - open firmware.  most people will never touch this.  Those who do will probably do great things and only help promote the product anyway.

 - Flat centre areas where one can more easily place a trackpad, 2ndary keypad, instrumentations of sorts, etc.  Preferably with snap/screw out panels for vendor or after market provided add ons.

 - standard key caps and some nicer key cap options.

- PS/2 / USB detachable cables.

- Affordable protective carry box.  I generally work from home but whenever I go onsite or travel I have to take my keyboard with me.

- Revamped marketing material doing away with that horrible horrible picture of a suited guy's hands gliding over a keyboard.  A new website that doesn't scream "we will take all your money and then won't even pay for a simple website that looks half decent".
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: datangel on Thu, 14 November 2013, 09:30:24
I'd like to see keys that don't work if you press them too hard, at least as an option. This would help train RSI sufferers like myself to not press the keys too hard :)
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: kaltar on Sun, 01 December 2013, 04:19:40
I just wish you guys could give us a preview! :)
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: synerr on Tue, 03 December 2013, 09:06:54
Another suggestion - to evaluate using a firmer switch (white?) for the 4 larger thumb buttons
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: pepstein on Tue, 03 December 2013, 14:54:50
I've been using Kinesis keyboards for over a decade. I'm using 3 right now, and have many more older models too. It's great to hear you're working on an updated model! It's probably far too late for my suggestions to be relevant, but here they are anyway:

Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: synerr on Wed, 04 December 2013, 11:11:46
I've been using Kinesis keyboards for over a decade. I'm using 3 right now, and have many more older models too. It's great to hear you're working on an updated model! It's probably far too late for my suggestions to be relevant, but here they are anyway:
  • I miss the old doubleshot keycaps. The smooth feel of the 8 home keys on the old doubleshots is especially missed.
  • Use a full sized escape key and function keys.
  • Add an Fn key to the left thumbpad. On Macs this would provide access to media keys and the other stuff they put on their Function keys, and it'd also provide access to the embedded keypad.
  • Dvorak only keycaps, Colemak keycaps, blank keycaps, more color options, etc.
  • Colemak support built in, as you already have for Dvorak. I use Dvorak myself, but Colemak is likely to be more popular than Dvorak in the future.
  • Minimize the total height of keyboard to improve arm ergonomics (horizontal forearm). This probably means you can't increase tenting.
  • Move thumb keys closer to the key wells if possible, so furthest row of thumb keys are easier to reach.
  • Lower key travel to make it feel more like a laptop keyboard, just because that's what the current generation are used to.
  • Bluetooth wireless if you can get decent battery life.
  • Kinesis keyboards are loud. O-rings help, but perhaps the inside should be filled with foam or something.
  • Minimize changes to key layout, so existing users can adapt to the new keyboard quickly.


Shhhh ... don't say things like shorter travel.  Management pick up on those things and they may toy with the idea of cutting costs further by switching to ML switches or something.  There is a linear red (not my thing) option for those so inclined.

I would love to see one of the older Kinesis to see how the build quality has changed.  The keycaps that came with mine truly and truly suck and the whole package generally feels 'cheap'.  Which having spent a fortune out of pocket I must say I expected something better.  Little things, like those odious shiny steel pozidrives which could easily be replaced by pleasant anodised black hex sockets.

The function key would be brilliant ... if you look at the ergo dox there is another index finger row of keys.  That would be a useful addition.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Input Nirvana on Thu, 05 December 2013, 06:35:16
Pepstein/Synner/Uberben:

Fortunately many of the items that are listed as "wants" on a Kinesis are items that can be done by us, the end user. I don't know if any of the items listed can make it into a final production  Kinesis board :(
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Thu, 05 December 2013, 18:20:43
I've been using Kinesis keyboards for over a decade. I'm using 3 right now, and have many more older models too. It's great to hear you're working on an updated model! It's probably far too late for my suggestions to be relevant, but here they are anyway:
  • I miss the old doubleshot keycaps. The smooth feel of the 8 home keys on the old doubleshots is especially missed.
  • Use a full sized escape key and function keys.
  • Add an Fn key to the left thumbpad. On Macs this would provide access to media keys and the other stuff they put on their Function keys, and it'd also provide access to the embedded keypad.
  • Dvorak only keycaps, Colemak keycaps, blank keycaps, more color options, etc.
  • Colemak support built in, as you already have for Dvorak. I use Dvorak myself, but Colemak is likely to be more popular than Dvorak in the future.
  • Minimize the total height of keyboard to improve arm ergonomics (horizontal forearm). This probably means you can't increase tenting.
  • Move thumb keys closer to the key wells if possible, so furthest row of thumb keys are easier to reach.
  • Lower key travel to make it feel more like a laptop keyboard, just because that's what the current generation are used to.
  • Bluetooth wireless if you can get decent battery life.
  • Kinesis keyboards are loud. O-rings help, but perhaps the inside should be filled with foam or something.
  • Minimize changes to key layout, so existing users can adapt to the new keyboard quickly.


Shhhh ... don't say things like shorter travel.  Management pick up on those things and they may toy with the idea of cutting costs further by switching to ML switches or something.  There is a linear red (not my thing) option for those so inclined.

We won't be going away from Cherry keyswitches.

Quote
I would love to see one of the older Kinesis to see how the build quality has changed.  The keycaps that came with mine truly and truly suck and the whole package generally feels 'cheap'.  Which having spent a fortune out of pocket I must say I expected something better.  Little things, like those odious shiny steel pozidrives which could easily be replaced by pleasant anodised black hex sockets.

The only thing that hasn't improved over the years are the keycaps. We used to use double-shot caps made by Signature plastic. Back when the keyboard was $700 or so in the early-mid 90's. In order to get the keyboard more affordable one of the changes were the keycaps.  Double shot keycaps are nice but typically a lot more expensive. If we can find an affordable manufacturer of double shot keycaps, we'll use them. If not, the current keycaps are not bad as they are pretty standard ABS keycaps. Some people can wear them faster over time than others but we always send replacement keycaps directly to customers  if they contact us.


Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: pepstein on Fri, 06 December 2013, 00:23:15
My first couple Kinesis boards were Essential MPC models with QWERTY doubleshots, but no support for Dvorak. I ordered dual legend caps for them, which were also doubleshots, and cost $50 if I recall. The Dvorak legend was clearly added on, but I've had no trouble with them wearing off, and I've been using these keycaps for about 20 years now. I tweaked the OS Dvorak support to make it work with the slightly different Kinesis Dvorak layout, but this got old pretty quickly, as I had to do it for MacOS and various flavors of Windows. Eventually I ordered a QD model for proper Dvorak support. When USB came along, I quickly tired of messing with PS2 to USB adapters, all of which had annoying flaws, so I bought an Advantage model.

The doubleshot caps are quite nice. They have a smooth finish, and their skirts (sides) are shorter and angled out more. They're white, except for the 8 home keys which are blue and have a rounded top. The round part is larger than the newer keycaps. The best way I can describe them is that make the keyboard more touchable. However, they do look old fashioned, both because all modern keyboards seem to use a steeper skirt profile, and because the keys are white rather than black. The doubleshots also fit the stems more loosely. Occasionally one will pop right off. Unlike the modern keycaps, the doubleshots have no reinforcements connecting the stem to the edges. I think that explains why many of them aren't compatible with O-rings.

All the newer keycaps have the same shape as modern keycaps like those from WASD keyboards, but there are some differences between vintages. The 8 home keys on one of my Advantage keyboards have a thick coating over both the QWERTY and Dvorak legends. I don't like the way these feel. Older keycaps have the same tall shape as the Advantage caps, but have a thinner coating protecting the lettering, and the coating is only on the QWERTY lettering, not the Dvorak, which appears to be done in the same way as it was on the old Doubleshot caps. I've had only one keycap fail, and it's just a cracked side that doesn't do any real harm. I've seen a tiny bit of legend wear on one shift key, but that's all.

It's been over 4 years since my last Kinesis keyboard purchase, so the keycaps may no longer be made by the same vendor. I think it'd be nice if it were possible to order higher quality caps from Kinesis, but I appreciate that you probably have to buy them in bulk, making that impractical. I think there is some room for improvement at a reasonable price point, because WASD keyboards sells a set of 87 decent quality keycaps for around 50 bucks. I suggest focusing on the quality of the 8 home keycaps, since they have more impact on the user experience than the other keys, and on the legends, making sure that they're durable but don't have such a thick coating that it affects key feel.

I recently added 0.4mm O-rings to my boards and filled much of the insides with soft foam. Together these changes made the keyboards feel and sound more polished. I agree that Kinesis keyboards don't look or sound as expensive as they are, especially now that mechanical keyboards have become a bit more mainstream. But ultimately I know what's important is that they have excellent ergonomics, and they're durable. I'm very happy that Kinesis has survived all these years.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: yasuo on Fri, 06 December 2013, 01:22:45
Function keys with MX
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: synerr on Fri, 06 December 2013, 02:29:03

We won't be going away from Cherry keyswitches.
.
.
.
The only thing that hasn't improved over the years are the keycaps. We used to use double-shot caps made by Signature plastic. Back when the keyboard was $700 or so in the early-mid 90's. In order to get the keyboard more affordable one of the changes were the keycaps.  Double shot keycaps are nice but typically a lot more expensive. If we can find an affordable manufacturer of double shot keycaps, we'll use them. If not, the current keycaps are not bad as they are pretty standard ABS keycaps. Some people can wear them faster over time than others but we always send replacement keycaps directly to customers  if they contact us.

I cannot get my head around how a commercially produced product cannot source/stock/mold inhouse a better set of keycaps, even if at an upgrade ...

... but anyways ... any chance of getting a sneak preview of the next iteration?  I think you said earlier that the Contoured is due for a refresh.  Need to decide whether I am going to budget for the upgrade and pawn my current one on ebay or mod my current one to my specifications.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Fri, 06 December 2013, 12:31:44

We won't be going away from Cherry keyswitches.
.
.
.
The only thing that hasn't improved over the years are the keycaps. We used to use double-shot caps made by Signature plastic. Back when the keyboard was $700 or so in the early-mid 90's. In order to get the keyboard more affordable one of the changes were the keycaps.  Double shot keycaps are nice but typically a lot more expensive. If we can find an affordable manufacturer of double shot keycaps, we'll use them. If not, the current keycaps are not bad as they are pretty standard ABS keycaps. Some people can wear them faster over time than others but we always send replacement keycaps directly to customers  if they contact us.

I cannot get my head around how a commercially produced product cannot source/stock/mold inhouse a better set of keycaps, even if at an upgrade ...

It's about finding quality keycaps at an affordable price. Remember one would have to buy in bulk and our keyboards have 10 different size keycaps, which some factories simply cannot do or the tooling cost too much. If our keyboard had one standard size key, it would be a lot easier. Also we are a very small company, about 12 employees, we do not have the resources to manufacturer our own keycaps.

Quote
... but anyways ... any chance of getting a sneak preview of the next iteration? 

Soon!
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: bester42 on Fri, 06 December 2013, 13:55:21
The most needed function in my case is remapping (nearly everythink).
In Germany there is NEO2 as optimized for german text, programming and scientific use (greek characters). It uses 6 layers; if you want switching back to qwertz (for other persons using the computer) you will be up to 9 layers...

This problem would of course be solved by nkro (or 10kro) an ps2-connector (or adapter to ps2), as there is the famous soarer-converter, which can remap any key. It also supports extra keys. So remaping the modifiers would not be any problem.

So nkro/10kro would solve many other suggestions.

Keycaps:
I do not understand, why there are 5 differnt row-types. Its seems to be relict from standard cherry boards. Cherry made flat boards, so the keycaps from row to row got higher. If you take a look at IBM Model M, it is possible to du the same effect by a curved board and all keycaps are the same high - and therefore interchangeable.
As kinesis already have a curved bord, why isn't it curved as mutch to allow all keycaps to be the same (exept the 2x1 of course)?
It would solve many questions about other layouts (like colemark).
Also it would make relegendable keycaps (Tipro or Cherry) possible, which would solve even the most exotic whiches (like mine for neo2...)
Keycaps relegandable and transparent (even the boddy-part) and RGB-backlight would of course have the most use - if you print the legend in 3 colors on black plasicfoil, you can get enlightend every layer-legend one by a time, depending of the choosen layer (have to get the information of modifier status of course)
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: synerr on Fri, 06 December 2013, 18:06:11

Quote
... but anyways ... any chance of getting a sneak preview of the next iteration? 

Soon!

Will we get a geekhack discount? :cool:
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: sordna on Sat, 07 December 2013, 12:32:44
our keyboards have 10 different size keycaps, which some factories simply cannot do or the tooling cost too much

Honestly, you don't need so many different types. The keywells provide enough curvature, too much curvature for my taste, and it's partly because the different keycaps increase the curvature even more.

Having the ergodox experience, which is completely flat and still works great, I think the ideal curvature would be something in between the ergodox and the Kinesis. That would be the sweet spot. The Kinesis bowls are so pronounced that make your fingers literally poke forward to type the number row, or curl like pulling a trigger for the arrow keys.
I hope you can address this in the new design. Reduced bowl effect will allow for a lower keyboard height, and/or allow increasing the tenting angle, which is too minimal in my opinion.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: synerr on Sat, 07 December 2013, 14:21:30
Keycaps relegandable and transparent (even the boddy-part) and RGB-backlight would of course have the most use - if you print the legend in 3 colors on black plasicfoil, you can get enlightend every layer-legend one by a time, depending of the choosen layer (have to get the information of modifier status of course)

Hang on ... keycaps that light up a different legend depending on which modifier key is pressed?

(link is first that came up in a search)
http://www.robotsimple.com/T1_3_4_5mm_Multicolor_RGB_LED_with_White_Diffused_Lens
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: uzoc on Sat, 07 December 2013, 14:54:07
- Regular (inverted-T) arrow keys!
- More keys.
- Wireless or Bluetooth connectivity (as an add on, or keyboard version).
- I really need a flat back, so I can add keyboard feet that are higher than current (laptop legs, for example).
  Or a flat section in the back, for feet (that are regulable).
- Standard size (or different color/options) for the 1st column (+=, tab, caps lock) and last column (_-, etc) so we can use other standard keys or more key options, you may provide. 
- Change the Function row (small size is OK), because it saves space and are not used much, but the rubber/feel is not good.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Pyrolistical on Mon, 09 December 2013, 13:44:07
I used a Advantage Kinesis for a few months, and then sold it.  I am no longer drinking the Kinesis Kool-Aid.

I have 2 huge beefs with the keyboard.

1. The function row is rubber
The main issue here is Esc is used a lot and those rubber buttons suck.

2. The key layout is compromised
It changed too much such as moving the = button to where ` is suppose to be.  I saw the advantage of getting used to the matrix layout and found it easier to type, but moving buttons is highly annoying.

You ran into the problem where the matrix layout made the keyboard asymmetric with way more keys on the right side.  This is why you moved the =, [, ], \ keys.  This move was too much.

Also I am a programmer and found it way harder to hit key combinations such as Shift+Alt+M.  Hitting alt was more awkward than before.

Given these issues, I think a better layout would be:
(http://i42.tinypic.com/14y4808.png)

I know that is a pretty big change, but it would make me try Kinesis again.

What about print screen, scroll lock, and page break?  I couldn't care less.  I never use them. EVER.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: lally on Mon, 09 December 2013, 15:22:13
Yeah, I have to second the awkwardness of the brackets and arrow keys.  They keyboard's huge, and most of that space is wasted while using some rather-important keys are a pain to use.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: synerr on Mon, 09 December 2013, 16:53:34
I like the size of the kinesis because it is easy on my elbows and shoulders.

Could actually do with a little bit more left right separattion if the centre space is utilised better.

I was toying with this layout:

[attach=1]

The thumb cluster to include the BS/Del Space/Enter as per Kinesis and the escape key double width horizontal on top of the BS/Del.  Also at the thumb cluster would be the arrow keys and the PgUp/PgDn and Home/End accessed through a Fn modifier key on top of the arrow keys.

In principle the Function keys could be similarly hidden but it's nice to have the extra keys especially if they can be reprogrammed or layered with macros.

The centre space could easily house an oversized trackball with mouse left right keys reachable with left/right thumbs below the left/right thumb clusters respectively.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: pepstein on Wed, 11 December 2013, 01:40:19
If you ask me, one of the great things about the Kinesis keyboard is that control, command, and alt/option keys are all thumb keys, leaving only the shift key for the pinkies. Also, the keys on the bottom row on the Kinesis keyboard are somewhat awkward to press, so it's not a good location to put meta keys. It took me a while to get used to the Kinesis cursor keys, but now that I have, I'm sure I'd rather have them where they are than wasting valuable thumb space. Honestly it's not that hard to adapt to the Kinesis layout.

I like the keywell curvature and keycap shapes as they are. If you rearranged the wells so the same keycap shape was used everywhere while retaining the same positions for the tops of the keycaps, I believe you'd end up with much more keywell curvature, and you might find it impossible, since adjacent swiches can't overlap one another.

Maybe it's just the result of my using Kinesis keyboards for so long, but I consider them quite refined, and not in need of drastic changes. I'd just improve some of the most obvious weaknesses while modernizing it a bit.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: vvp on Fri, 13 December 2013, 02:13:43
Modifier keys should be in the thumb clusters. Moreover the thumb clusters should not have the big (1x2) keys. There should be two standard 1x1 keys instead of each big key (like Maltron). This allows to add Win modifiers and proper layer shifting keys to thumbs.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: mannelig on Fri, 13 December 2013, 04:51:02
I bet new Kinesis won't be too different from previous model. Internal changes (new controller, programmability) - yes, major external changes - no.
There's too much history and time-proofing behind existing construction.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: synerr on Fri, 13 December 2013, 05:56:33
Modifier keys should be in the thumb clusters. Moreover the thumb clusters should not have the big (1x2) keys. There should be two standard 1x1 keys instead of each big key (like Maltron). This allows to add Win modifiers and proper layer shifting keys to thumbs.

The large thumb buttons are life savers for those of us with thumb dexterity issues.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Fri, 13 December 2013, 12:26:00
I bet new Kinesis won't be too different from previous model. Internal changes (new controller, programmability) - yes, major external changes - no.
There's too much history and time-proofing behind existing construction.

Correct - it's unlikely we'll have any major external changes, at least initially.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: vvp on Fri, 13 December 2013, 13:33:08
Correct - it's unlikely we'll have any major external changes, at least initially.
Well, if you at least fix the firmware to support layers properly and add at least two easily accessible* pairs of modifiers (Win keys and LayerShift) then, in my opinion, it is worth considering an upgrade from the current Kinesis Advantage. Bonus points for an option to replace firmware with something open.

* either in thumb clusters or in an additional internal column as ergodox; one pair fits even in far bottom pinkie locations

Somebody mentioned it would be good to lower number of keycap shapes to reduce price. I agree. It is already contoured. The only place where keycaps should be different are thumb clusters. It is important that higher rows have also taller keycaps. But you can achieve this by tilting the thumb cluster even more.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Fri, 13 December 2013, 15:33:08
I experimented a bit with one size keycaps for the alpha/numeric keys and the bottom row keycaps probably need to have different shapes (arrow keys, etc.). Still it would certainly reduce the amount of unique keycaps and make things a bit easier, I agree.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: vvp on Fri, 13 December 2013, 17:19:53
I experimented a bit with one size keycaps for the alpha/numeric keys and the bottom row keycaps probably need to have different shapes (arrow keys, etc.).
Right. The missing tilt of the bottom row was the reason I did not get ergodox at the end. I probably would not mind missing tilt of all the other keys in a key well. But I think I would mind if the bottom row was not tilted. I tried to put DSA keycaps on the bottom row of my kinesis and it was OK ... except the pinkie key. I did mind the missing bit of tilt there. But the key wells are already curved. Just tilt the bottom row a bit more and it would do even with DSA. Though that may be more expensive than just using the most common DCS shapes.
I also think there is no good reason to have outer pinkie columns a bit wider.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: sordna on Fri, 13 December 2013, 22:03:49
Honestly I think the keywells' curvature should be less pronounced, and the middle finger column less deep.

BTW I put Kinesis blank keycaps on my ergodox to give it a subtle curvature and its pretty good, although the Kinesis bowls do help keep the hands in the right place so I do less typing errors on the Advantage than I do on the ergodox.

The tilt you are talking about actually is a bit tiring because the fingers curl too much to reach the bottom row of the Kinesis, and the motion to actuate them is like pulling something.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: glax on Tue, 17 December 2013, 10:53:08
Well, rather late. However, I would like to share my ideas, most of them already shared by others:

I am working with the advantage since 10 years now, at work and at home, seldomly even exceeding 100 hrs a week. So I guess I have some experience with that keyboard.

I like the ergonomics, the curvature, distance between left and right dents, the key caps, location and splitting of arrow keys and  and the overall appearance and size; not much to be done here. Curvature may even be a bit more pronounced for my taste.

Bluetooth:
My dearest suggestion: please, do (additionally!) implement Bluetooth. I am increasingly working with my tablet and mobile phone and I would really like to use my kinesis advantage if there are larger texts to be typed. This happens from time to time and it is getting more, although it is still far less than keyboard usage with my PC.

Real F-Keys:
Please do not use rubber for the function keys anymore. If there is a space issue for real function keys, maybe they can surround somehow the dents (F7, F8 besides 5, T) or seldomly used keys like print, scroll lock, pause, keypad and program may be located elsewhere.

Pointing device:
I really would fancy to have some kind of pointing device included. Whether this is a touchpad, a track point, a track ball or a roll bar, I have no idea of best implementation and location and leave that to you ergonomic-experts. I personally fancy the idea of having a track point for the right index finger between J and Y, automatically rendering the left-hand home-row keys to mouse buttons when the track point is touched. Well, considering licensing this will remain rather farfetched.

Additional keys:
I would like to have further keys for mode switching, e.g. for alternative layouts like NEO. Possibly below both shift keys. There seems to be enough space and that location seems quite reachable by the pinkie. I would love to have additional keys above space and backspace, respectively, to a total of 2*7 thumb-keys in total.

Typing noise:
I hardly bottom out anymore, but during start, the keyboard was considerably louder than my old one. Is there any way to add some dampers? I read about work around like O-rings, but it does not seem to complex to include something factory-wise.

Controller update:
The controller may use some updating. I would fancy more/larger macros and especially quicker macro responsiveness.

And now some nice to haves, which are not really urgent:
-No grooves surrounding the function keys. They are a pain to clean.
-Exchange of profiles. I have 3 advantages; it is quite laborious to keep them with identical configurations.
-An easily accessible SD-slot at the keyboard might be nice. I hate crawling behind a screen to search for the slot there.
-Switching of left- and right-hand side via foot switch. I often work using my left hand for the keyboard and the right hand for the mouse. If a right-hand key is needed, it is a bit annoying moving the mouse hand to the keyboard. This could be prevented by triggering that key via the left hand after electronically switching sides.
-Connecting foot switch via socket rather than via breakout cable.
-Option to purchase the keyboard directly with unlabelled key caps, more color options.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sat, 28 December 2013, 00:05:32
I used a Advantage Kinesis for a few months, and then sold it.  I am no longer drinking the Kinesis Kool-Aid.

I have 2 huge beefs with the keyboard.

1. The function row is rubber
The main issue here is Esc is used a lot and those rubber buttons suck.

2. The key layout is compromised
It changed too much such as moving the = button to where ` is suppose to be.  I saw the advantage of getting used to the matrix layout and found it easier to type, but moving buttons is highly annoying.

You ran into the problem where the matrix layout made the keyboard asymmetric with way more keys on the right side.  This is why you moved the =, [, ], \ keys.  This move was too much.

Also I am a programmer and found it way harder to hit key combinations such as Shift+Alt+M.  Hitting alt was more awkward than before.

Given these issues, I think a better layout would be:
Show Image
(http://i42.tinypic.com/14y4808.png)


I know that is a pretty big change, but it would make me try Kinesis again.

What about print screen, scroll lock, and page break?  I couldn't care less.  I never use them. EVER.

Are you aware that you can reprogram any key to any location right on the keyboard? If I read your post right, that would solve most of your issues?


And to GLAX:
You have some nice, fresh Kinesis ideas, thanks for sharing them.
There used to be a link to info with photos in my sig (below) but the article needs to be reconstructed. Some of your new ideas I would like to add to the article and incorporate.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Findecanor on Sat, 28 December 2013, 11:54:20
-Switching of left- and right-hand side via foot switch. I often work using my left hand for the keyboard and the right hand for the mouse. If a right-hand key is needed, it is a bit annoying moving the mouse hand to the keyboard. This could be prevented by triggering that key via the left hand after electronically switching sides.
Do you mean like a Matias Half keyboard (http://matias.ca/halfkeyboard/)?
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: glax on Thu, 02 January 2014, 05:20:37
Do you mean like a Matias Half keyboard (http://matias.ca/halfkeyboard/)?

Yes, actually I do. I didn't know Matias' device yet.
Well, space as a modifier won't work here. Maybe arcade palm buttons ;-)

@Input Nirvana: sure, that's nice.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: vatin on Thu, 02 January 2014, 18:21:25
Upon other good things, please include wire type cap puller.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: davkol on Sun, 05 January 2014, 17:47:10
It's probably too late, but anyway... I've been using the KB500USB-BLK for a few days and here are some of my complaints:
On the other hand, I likeI guess I'll go back to the ergodox eventually. No matter how I like those keywells, I need more accessible AltGr (or better two of them, one on each half).
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: sordna on Mon, 06 January 2014, 09:42:25
You gotta be kidding about the remapping. It's easy and instant. Once you enter programming mode, you can press source, destination key, one pair after the other, as many as you like and then exit programming mode. Resetting a key is as easy as hitting it twice.
Macros are just as easy as well.

How is remappig and macros done on your ergodox?
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: davkol on Mon, 06 January 2014, 11:11:35
But that's it! I can't make layers on kinesis and there aren't enough easily accessible keys for modifiers anyway. That's why it's complicated. I can't think of any key that I could swap with AltGr, at the very least. Swap, that's another problem... I can't separate a key and shift+key.

For the record, the primary layer on my ergodox is below. RAlt and the two bigger thumb keys are the only keys I can hit with my thumb without moving the whole hand.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: sordna on Mon, 06 January 2014, 14:43:50
Thanks for that. Yes, having ability to create layers, shifted keys, saving/modifying layouts on the computer would be great additions to the Kinesis. And extra buttons of course (see my sig for my extra keys mod + arcade buttons).

But its wrong to say its complicated; it's brilliantly simple, just not flexible/powerful enough.

The ergodox IS complicated to remap (and would benefit from an onboard remapping ability) but of course much more powerful (hey, I even added light and audible feedback to it by hacking the source - links in my sig). However having to recompile the firmware just to swap 2 keys is a huge pain (not to mention using either a website, or hacking the source code files to make changes). Ouch. On the Kinesis I can do a macro or a minor remap in 5 seconds.

I'm using both keyboards extensively every single day for a very long time now, love them both, and do agree with your suggestions!
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: davkol on Mon, 06 January 2014, 15:33:28
Perhaps poor wording on my side, although I think it's a matter of philosophy. I'd compare kinesis to GNOME (before GNOME Shell extensions) and ergodox to the suckless project (you need to recompile the dwm window manager to reconfigure it, but it's actually quite powerful).
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Input Nirvana on Mon, 20 January 2014, 11:44:27
Will be fun to see how the new models improve from the already awesome product that Kinesis already has successfully managed all these years.

Heard rumors of backlighting, I'm wondering if the RGB Cherry switch may be incorporated. The Cherry site says exclusive to Corsair, but that may be because Corsair is a mass-market item.

So many options, maybe a clear case with multi-color components and lights… remember this blast from the past? LOL

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: schultzor on Tue, 21 January 2014, 15:48:54
Any idea when an updated Advantage might hit the market? I just started using one at work and am thinking about getting one for home.

Emacs with thumb modifiers is sweet :)
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Canut on Wed, 22 January 2014, 12:24:22
^^ Same question ^^

I'm thinking of getting a Kinesis, but I'm waiting for news of that refresh.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: synerr on Wed, 22 January 2014, 16:57:22
I'm really curious to see what they've done.  If they're rid of the hideous rubber keys I'll sell mine and buy a new one.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Input Nirvana on Thu, 23 January 2014, 22:17:26
I'm really curious to see what they've done.  If they're rid of the hideous rubber keys I'll sell mine and buy a new one.

Yea, but who'll buy it? Everyone will be getting the new board!

:)
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: dorkvader on Thu, 23 January 2014, 23:09:17
#1 suggestion: release the new KB you have planned.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: vvp on Fri, 24 January 2014, 05:12:40
Yea, but who'll buy it? Everyone will be getting the new board!
That kind of assumes that the new keyboard will be better than the old one.
The old model should still have a price of used keycaps and switches.
I can imagine ergodox users going for the keycaps.
So it's only a matter of price :)
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: synerr on Fri, 24 January 2014, 12:16:02
Yea, but who'll buy it? Everyone will be getting the new board!
That kind of assumes that the new keyboard will be better than the old one.
The old model should still have a price of used keycaps and switches.
I can imagine ergodox users going for the keycaps.
So it's only a matter of price :)

It also assumes that the target market for a used kinesis is a keyboard enthusiast.    For all I know there could be someone willing to buy a bargain of the same ergo he uses at the office fir home.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: kaltar on Sat, 25 January 2014, 00:23:00
And the clock ticks... and can't wait to see the new keyboard.

(Have the money allocated already for it!)
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Mon, 27 January 2014, 17:11:55

While you're thinking about broadening your market, I recommend modernizing your website. [/li][/list]


Better late then never! http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/


Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Mon, 27 January 2014, 17:13:26
Will be fun to see how the new models improve from the already awesome product that Kinesis already has successfully managed all these years.

Heard rumors of backlighting, I'm wondering if the RGB Cherry switch may be incorporated. The Cherry site says exclusive to Corsair, but that may be because Corsair is a mass-market item.


From my understanding there is a 1-year lead time on the RGB Cherry key switches :(
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: dorkvader on Mon, 27 January 2014, 21:32:19

While you're thinking about broadening your market, I recommend modernizing your website. [/li][/list]


Better late then never! http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/




Awesome! I much prefer it to unicomp's recent makeover.

The only other suggestion I can think of is to release more info to sate our anticipation!
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Input Nirvana on Tue, 04 February 2014, 21:40:44
Will be fun to see how the new models improve from the already awesome product that Kinesis already has successfully managed all these years.

Heard rumors of backlighting, I'm wondering if the RGB Cherry switch may be incorporated. The Cherry site says exclusive to Corsair, but that may be because Corsair is a mass-market item.


From my understanding there is a 1-year lead time on the RGB Cherry key switches :(

1 year lead time. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Sounds like the "Matias clear quiet tactile Alps-clone" could be a candidate. But I think both of these clear switches will be using SMD LEDs which may not work out to retrofit a board anyhow.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: bedrift on Wed, 05 February 2014, 11:42:40
My suggestion is a model that is as quiet as possible.
Others have suggested to fill up the void inside the keyboard and for it to be delivered with preinstalled o-rings.   
I can imagine to able to work without being an noise nuisance to my surroundings is a top priority for many.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: mannelig on Thu, 06 February 2014, 04:12:34
Please, say something about ETA.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: BlueByLiquid on Thu, 06 February 2014, 08:03:57
Will be fun to see how the new models improve from the already awesome product that Kinesis already has successfully managed all these years.

Heard rumors of backlighting, I'm wondering if the RGB Cherry switch may be incorporated. The Cherry site says exclusive to Corsair, but that may be because Corsair is a mass-market item.


From my understanding there is a 1-year lead time on the RGB Cherry key switches :(

Have you guys looks at just doing a surface mount rgb led on the PCB itself? I had tested this myself and it worked out well when you get a small enough surface mount rgb led. Also I talked with Acidfire about it as he is working on one for his board he just puts two of them per key on either side. This works just as well as one on the key. it would likely be cheaper than buying them from cherry.

I didn't know you were doing a new board but please of please let it be backlit with a programable API  for the backlight (Like the one I custom built on the forums). I really think this could help with so many things to show layers and other information.

Really really really really would like a split design. I have broad sholders and this would really help getting the right position for me. Also I am guessing this would help sales as the ergodox has been very popular with the split design.

Would be neat to have a clear plastic case

Also for the love of GOD please put actual keys instead of the rubber function keys! I have been using multiple of these boards for ages and everytime I press one (or miss one) I curse the Kinesis name. :)

I will be the first purchaser of many of these boards.

Also please keep the option open of ordering one without memory. I have to order them without memory for my office.


Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: kaltar on Sun, 09 February 2014, 19:09:28

While you're thinking about broadening your market, I recommend modernizing your website. [/li][/list]


Better late then never! http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/

Wow! What a difference. The only thing missing before was a flashing GIF saying "Welcome to my geocities homepage"  :))
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Findecanor on Sun, 09 February 2014, 23:26:13
My suggestion is a model that is as quiet as possible.
How about bolting the key wells to the upper case with rubber O-rings? I believe a lot of the noise from a keyboard with Cherry MX switches is transmitted through the plate/keywell to the case.

Would be neat to have a clear plastic case
No no no.. Apple's early '00s keyboards that were transparent get quite disgusting after a while because you can see all the crud and dust that has fallen into the keyboard. Also, any scratches on the surface are much more visible on transparent plastic than opaque.
Also, I don't think that regular ABS plastic can be transparent. Apple's transparent keyboards (and computer cases, etc.) were made of polycarbonate which is transparent while being impact-resistant, but more expensive in various ways than ABS.

Also please keep the option open of ordering one without memory. I have to order them without memory for my office.
For security reasons?
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: BlueByLiquid on Mon, 10 February 2014, 12:34:47
Also please keep the option open of ordering one without memory. I have to order them without memory for my office.
For security reasons?

Yes. Many companies won't let you have input devices with programmable memory in them.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: synerr on Fri, 07 March 2014, 13:33:30
Has the new advantage been released yet?
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: vatin on Sun, 09 March 2014, 11:44:32
Would love to hear about the updates as well...
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: automator on Wed, 12 March 2014, 12:02:56
natas206: I hope things are still moving forward.  =]
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: davkol on Fri, 21 March 2014, 17:20:43
It's probably too late, but anyway... I've been using the KB500USB-BLK for a few days and here are some of my complaints:
(...)

After 12 weeks, I've formed my final opinion on the keyboard and here go changes that would make it usable for me:

Lower-priority features would be

Now I have to decide, whether I mod my kinesis heavily, or just live without curved keywells.

BTW I love the position/angle of shift keys.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: kaltar on Tue, 01 April 2014, 22:52:31
Nothing new from Kinesis?

I think the keywells beat the ergonomic ass of the ergodox.
If Kinesis ever releases a keyboard split like the ergodox, with real keys (non eraser like ones) it would sell way more than the ergodox does... heck, they can even sell it as a kit!

I like the ergodox a lot, lots of potential there. But talking about ergonomics, I prefer the kinesis a lot more. Since I do have carpal tunnel, I can say that the kinesis is way softer in my hands than the ergodox, and the thumb buttons are closer and more friendly. If i could just split my kinesis advantage, I would not be typing on an ergodox every other day.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Wed, 02 April 2014, 10:52:04
Sorry for the lack of update guys, we are still going forward...currently working on some kinks in the firmware. I'll keep you updated when I can.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: vvp on Wed, 02 April 2014, 13:06:19
I like the ergodox a lot, lots of potential there. But talking about ergonomics, I prefer the kinesis a lot more.
Same here. Both kinesis and ergodox are lacking. But kinesis is somewhat better. So I'm still using my old Advantage keyboard. I too consider thumb cluster to be far away on ergodox. And I mind a lot that the bottom row is not tilted. I probably could do with other rows not being tilted.

I started a bastard child of the two. That would be the ideal keyboard for me. Maybe I'll have it done by the end of the year. Or not. It depends on how much free time I will have.

Here is my idea how a proper keywell and thumb cluster should look like:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=43362.msg1198610#msg1198610

The contoured keywell (and the whole case) should be printable by a dirt cheap reprap 3dPrinter of your friend next door :)
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: kaltar on Thu, 03 April 2014, 13:38:01
I started a bastard child of the two. That would be the ideal keyboard for me. Maybe I'll have it done by the end of the year. Or not. It depends on how much free time I will have.

Here is my idea how a proper keywell and thumb cluster should look like:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=43362.msg1198610#msg1198610

The contoured keywell (and the whole case) should be printable by a dirt cheap reprap 3dPrinter of your friend next door :)

Cool. Please finish it, and now we have an ergodox contoured :)

Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: BlueByLiquid on Thu, 03 April 2014, 21:25:50
I like the ergodox a lot, lots of potential there. But talking about ergonomics, I prefer the kinesis a lot more.
Same here. Both kinesis and ergodox are lacking. But kinesis is somewhat better. So I'm still using my old Advantage keyboard. I too consider thumb cluster to be far away on ergodox. And I mind a lot that the bottom row is not tilted. I probably could do with other rows not being tilted.

I started a bastard child of the two. That would be the ideal keyboard for me. Maybe I'll have it done by the end of the year. Or not. It depends on how much free time I will have.

Here is my idea how a proper keywell and thumb cluster should look like:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=43362.msg1198610#msg1198610

The contoured keywell (and the whole case) should be printable by a dirt cheap reprap 3dPrinter of your friend next door :)

Looks good. I had worked on a couple of things to get the contour more natural for the user including little pieces you could build up and 3D printing. I think 3d printing is the way to go. I would probably make a 3d program to generate exactly the curve you want for your hands.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: BlueByLiquid on Thu, 03 April 2014, 21:27:18
Sorry for the lack of update guys, we are still going forward...currently working on some kinks in the firmware. I'll keep you updated when I can.

eager to hear more. I just got my new Kinesis at work and I really wish more had been updated from the ps2 version I bought ages ago. The only differences are the finish (looks good) and the dedicated windows key.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: k3y on Fri, 04 April 2014, 19:46:30
Probably much too late for input at this point, but I just want to add a voice for support of Colemak.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: kaltar on Sun, 06 April 2014, 12:56:53
Probably much too late for input at this point, but I just want to add a voice for support of Colemak.

You know you can remap all your keys on the Kinesis, right? and also create an additional layer
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: TGVarik on Sun, 06 April 2014, 13:04:36
You know you can remap all your keys on the Kinesis, right? and also create an additional layer
But if one needs to retain a more traditional layout option, e.g., QWERTY, for workplace compliance, one would be up a creek. The current firmware supports easy switching between QWERTY and Dvorak, but not between QWERTY and a custom remap.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: sordna on Sun, 06 April 2014, 14:36:09
But if one needs to retain a more traditional layout option, e.g., QWERTY, for workplace compliance, one would be up a creek. The current firmware supports easy switching between QWERTY and Dvorak, but not between QWERTY and a custom remap.

Actually you can remap the keypad layer to the custom remap you want. And then you can switch between the two. So you can have Dvorak or qwerty in the main layer, and a custom remap in the keypad layer.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: astangl on Tue, 22 April 2014, 23:06:25
Hi, new user here. I have two (one at work, one at home) 14+ year old Kinesis contoured keyboards that I manage to keep operating, cleaning them out periodically and putting Deoxit on connectors to deal with connector flakiness/oxidation issues. Some coworkers see the yellowed plastic and laugh at what they perceive to be ancient hardware. But it gets the job done.

I may be switching to Macs soon and am concerned that these old keyboards may not be compatible with them. (These have the original IBM PC keyboard DIN connector, plugged into a PS/2 adapter, plugged into a flaky PS/2 to USB adapter.)

I'm excited to read that Kinesis plans to be coming out with an improved keyboard soon. It's a given (I hope) that they'll be PC/Mac compatible and have USB connectors, but I hope for some additional improvements:

1. Higher quality keycaps, preferably dyesub PBT, or failing that, double-shot or engraved ABS. At least make these available as an option for users willing to pay a premium for this -- although the keyboard already commands a premium price, so it'd be nice not to be nickeled and dimed too much here. I've worn off some of the surface-applied legends on my keycaps, and it just does not seem right for the Kinesis to have these cheap-seeming keycaps.

2. Replace the rubber keys with real keyswitches. I can understand that they were cheap and easy to squeeze in a large number of them in a tight area, but everybody hates them, and they cheapen the overall feel of the keyboard.

3. Open firmware, or at least easily updated firmware. Many companies see the wisdom of open source nowadays. This blog and others like it are clear evidence of an enthusiast community that a wise manufacturer can leverage to help improve its product at little to no cost. I worked on firmware in computer terminals for over 5 years, and would love the opportunity to dig in and help fix and improve it. When I read about keystrokes getting lost when too many macros are defined, because of having to linearly scan through the entire list with each keystroke, it makes me want to pull my hair out because there's many better ways to do this that would avoid this issue. Also when I read recent accounts of people experiencing the same issues with "stuck shift" state that I experience, it makes it seem like the firmware has been relatively neglected, that bugs like this have been allowed to persist for over 10 years. You are primarily in the hardware business, and would have little to lose by open sourcing your firmware, and potentially much to gain. For one thing, you'll never again find yourself in a situation where you are stuck with firmware you cannot update because some third party wrote it and went out of business.

If you are looking for beta testers, for either new keyboards, replacements electronics, or replacement firmware, I'd love to volunteer. Though I mostly do software nowadays, I'm still quite comfortable taking things apart, pulling chips, soldering/unsoldering, etc. I have removed & sent in keywells that had flaky solder joints (I offered to touch up the solder joint myself but was advised to send it in instead.)

Any news on when the new keyboard will be available?

Thanks,

Alex
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: BlueByLiquid on Fri, 09 May 2014, 11:10:27
I like the ergodox a lot, lots of potential there. But talking about ergonomics, I prefer the kinesis a lot more.
Same here. Both kinesis and ergodox are lacking. But kinesis is somewhat better. So I'm still using my old Advantage keyboard. I too consider thumb cluster to be far away on ergodox. And I mind a lot that the bottom row is not tilted. I probably could do with other rows not being tilted.

I started a bastard child of the two. That would be the ideal keyboard for me. Maybe I'll have it done by the end of the year. Or not. It depends on how much free time I will have.

Here is my idea how a proper keywell and thumb cluster should look like:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=43362.msg1198610#msg1198610

The contoured keywell (and the whole case) should be printable by a dirt cheap reprap 3dPrinter of your friend next door :)

Any update? Thanks!
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: vvp on Fri, 09 May 2014, 12:38:30
Here is my idea how a proper keywell and thumb cluster should look like:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=43362.msg1198610#msg1198610

The contoured keywell (and the whole case) should be printable by a dirt cheap reprap 3dPrinter of your friend next door :)

Any update? Thanks!

The case moved a bit on, but I'll need to redo a part of it since I was talked into connecting left and right hand side with a cable which can be disconnected (8 pin RJ45 (Ethernet) jack, but only 6 pins will be used). Originally, I planned 13 wire connection which could not be disconnected. ETA is still sometimes at the end of this year (if I will not lose interest).
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=43362.msg1299124#msg1299124
Warning: It will be a bit harder to build (will require more skills) than ErgoDox.
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=57559.msg1310989#msg1310989
But if should not be much more expensive if you have a friend with well calibrated RepRap FDM printer.

PS: I was curious where Kinesis vendor forum disappeared. Looks like this thread is here but it is not dedicated to any particular vendor any more.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: oystein.krog on Sat, 10 May 2014, 13:25:59
vvp: Oh man, your keywell has single-handedly aalmost convinced me to get a 3d printer:P
I'm still trying to hold out but it is really damn though!
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: BlueByLiquid on Sat, 17 May 2014, 23:10:11
Here is my idea how a proper keywell and thumb cluster should look like:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=43362.msg1198610#msg1198610

The contoured keywell (and the whole case) should be printable by a dirt cheap reprap 3dPrinter of your friend next door :)

Any update? Thanks!

The case moved a bit on, but I'll need to redo a part of it since I was talked into connecting left and right hand side with a cable which can be disconnected (8 pin RJ45 (Ethernet) jack, but only 6 pins will be used). Originally, I planned 13 wire connection which could not be disconnected. ETA is still sometimes at the end of this year (if I will not lose interest).
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=43362.msg1299124#msg1299124
Warning: It will be a bit harder to build (will require more skills) than ErgoDox.
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=57559.msg1310989#msg1310989
But if should not be much more expensive if you have a friend with well calibrated RepRap FDM printer.

PS: I was curious where Kinesis vendor forum disappeared. Looks like this thread is here but it is not dedicated to any particular vendor any more.

Thanks! I'm super interested. in this.

About the forum. I somehow found this post about the missing forums. (it seems they get deleted if no one from the vendor posts in X amount of time). http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=57664.msg1322301#msg1322301

Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: rosciol on Mon, 19 May 2014, 14:04:55
If a split version of the Advantage gets released, I'm buying at least 2 on day 1.  In the vein of suggestions, split is the top of my list, and it probably occupies the first 8 slots in my top ten requests.  After that would be a layering system like Ergodox and alternative firmwares have.  I don't think firmware was ever the Advantage's strong suit (it's the hardware!), as it had some known problems (like how my keys get stuck in all caps at random times), so it seems like open sourcing the firmware so the hordes of Kinesis followers can work on / improve it would be in everyone's interest.  Lastly, more keys is always nice, but not a super high priority, but replacing the rubber bits on top would be great.  Adding an inner column and/or a key below the shift keys would be further down the list of requests.

While I'm biding my time waiting for a split Advantage, I'm considering the Ergodox buy that's going on right now.  I'm not sure I'm up to soldering all of those parts, though; my soldering skills are pretty terrible.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: davkol on Mon, 19 May 2014, 14:16:05
While I'm biding my time waiting for a split Advantage, I'm considering the Ergodox buy that's going on right now.  I'm not sure I'm up to soldering all of those parts, though; my soldering skills are pretty terrible.

Why not have it assembled for you?
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: rosciol on Mon, 19 May 2014, 15:23:18
Why not have it assembled for you?

They seem to have removed the pre-assembled options for this buy (assuming it normally exists on the order page), so it looks like self-service or find-your-own-assembler are the ways to go.  Not the end of the world; maybe it will give me an opportunity to improve my skills.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: davkol on Mon, 19 May 2014, 15:28:24
See the list of people who offer assembly service here: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=45886
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: rosciol on Mon, 19 May 2014, 15:58:21
Thanks for the link; that's really helpful.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: SonOfSonOfSpock on Tue, 20 May 2014, 00:24:35
Why not have it assembled for you?

They seem to have removed the pre-assembled options for this buy (assuming it normally exists on the order page), so it looks like self-service or find-your-own-assembler are the ways to go.  Not the end of the world; maybe it will give me an opportunity to improve my skills.

The MassDrop people have said the pre-assembly was a one time thing.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sat, 14 June 2014, 01:35:25
Note red circles:

My Split Kinesis has the same extreme lower right key added on both key wells as shown on this right key well. (see small red circle on right)
When I converted the 18 rubber keys to 12 mechanical switches, I decided to move 6 of the 18 rubber keys to the same locations shown here in vvp's 3D print mock up. But I have not done the work…looks like vvp may have done it already. (see long red oval on left)
I'm not sure about the thumb key cluster changes…but will contact vvp to see what he's up to.

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Zekromtor on Sat, 14 June 2014, 06:09:07
That cheeky bastard put Z in the second layer. Smart. That's a very nice layout he's got there.

Advantage really needs the ability to easily bind an existing key as a momentary switch to access the other layer. Toggle doesn't cut it, and not everybody is as crazy as the rest of us and willing to chop up their keyboard the first chance they get.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: davkol on Sat, 14 June 2014, 06:21:05
That cheeky bastard put Z in the second layer. Smart.
wat.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Zekromtor on Sat, 14 June 2014, 08:37:18
On his Y key legend he has a Z underneath it. I'm assuming he remapped his Z key there second layer as it is so low frequency, it doesn't deserve a place on the main layer.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: davkol on Sat, 14 June 2014, 09:17:37
Umm, ever heard of QWERTZ? That keycap set looks pretty much like Czech QWERTZ.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: vvp on Sat, 14 June 2014, 09:53:13
That keycap set looks pretty much like Czech QWERTZ.

Yes, the keycaps are from a scrapped Czecho-Slovak QWERTZ keyboard.
Do not care about keycap markings. A modified chrisandreae's firmware will be loaded there. The layout can be defined whatever you like at the firmware load time and later remapped on the fly.

Status: Electronics is designed and checked on a breadboard. Cases are almost designed (some mounting points for PCBs/LCD/cabling are still missing inside the cases). ETA is still sometimes by the end of this year (if I will not lose interest).
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Zekromtor on Sat, 14 June 2014, 13:06:26
That keycap set looks pretty much like Czech QWERTZ.

Yes, the keycaps are from a scrapped Czecho-Slovak QWERTZ keyboard.
Do not care about keycap markings. A modified chrisandreae's firmware will be loaded there. The layout can be defined whatever you like at the firmware load time and later remapped on the fly.

Status: Electronics is designed and checked on a breadboard. Cases are almost designed (some mounting points for PCBs/LCD/cabling are still missing inside the cases). ETA is still sometimes by the end of this year (if I will not lose interest).

Ah, I see now. Just a "choose your config" style key, not a second layer.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2a/KB_Slovak.svg/900px-KB_Slovak.svg.png)
N/m then!
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Canut on Sat, 21 June 2014, 04:55:29
Sorry for the lack of update guys, we are still going forward...currently working on some kinks in the firmware. I'll keep you updated when I can.

Any progress?
Will the new firmware be open for modifications?
Could you enlist the help of the community to get it finished?
(It seems that's what Totally Ergonomic did. But in their case they'd left users without support for far too long and squandered any good will).

Community-designed keyboards have made amazing advances in programmability, etc. (even a GUI in the case of the Ergodox). Any commercial product that lags behind that isn't really going to encourage me to hand over several hundred dollars.
I'm hoping for mechanical Fn keys; and updated controller, programmability, and interface.
 :thumb:

[closes wallet and waits patiently for product release]
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: goflo on Thu, 26 June 2014, 02:26:41
Same here.

I´m waiting for some more information. I almost ordered a Advantage Keyboard a few days ago, but then found this thread.
So I think I'll wait for the new one too ;)


[closes wallet and waits patiently for product release too]  ;D
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: figit090 on Sun, 29 June 2014, 22:07:33
I'm really really REALLY hoping for a split board or at least more adjustibility.   as much as I love my kinesis classic (i even took the trouble to backlight the thing and may install more buttons someday) I'm still experimenting with ways to position it for proper feel. 

Is it really better to raise the front end (nearest to myself) a 1/2" or so to help with ergonomics?

Right now I have a horrible divot in the left hand wrest so obviously something is wrong.  Any tips on positioning is appreciated.

Besides that perhaps i need to remap the CTRL keys, because photoshop and lightroom's CTRL+ALT and CTRL+SHIFT are so wildly different it's a bit awkward to use my hotkeys.
I'm SO glad to see the site is updated!  Now get on social media and keep pushing before microsoft goes further with their designs and does us ergo guys and gals no good whatsoever.  Also, people love LED's...I think the Kinesis boad would sell more if lighted keys and/or keywells was an option. 

Or I could just modify them for everyone for a price.  :thumb:

Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: figit090 on Sun, 29 June 2014, 23:07:28
double post sorry
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Input Nirvana on Mon, 30 June 2014, 01:23:43
It will certainly be interesting to see what updates Kinesis will have come up with, what they didn't do, and if anything takes a step backwards…..

They will have backlighting, but I don't' know how extensive it will be..
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: figit090 on Mon, 30 June 2014, 22:12:49
It will certainly be interesting to see what updates Kinesis will have come up with, what they didn't do, and if anything takes a step backwards…..

They will have backlighting, but I don't' know how extensive it will be..

wait, is backlighting of some sort confirmed?  Also, what happened to the "Post your Kinesis Keyboards!" thread???  I have the URL and it's dead; a search failed me as well.

Man, if we get RGB led cherry switches I'll be down for a new board someday wayyy sooner than I planned (I plan to get a new one when my current classic model dies).  Ideally I'd like the current design with a few more buttons, mech functions, RGB LED's in each key, and I'll add my own keywell backlighting if it's not there, and think about hacking it in half.  I need to reference the split kinesis design again I forget how tricky that mod is...  I really feel like it would be neat to get a LITTLE more separation for my shoulders though.  For now I'll try activating my shoulder muscles a bit more I guess.

Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Input Nirvana on Mon, 30 June 2014, 23:46:34
Splitting a Kinesis is by far THE BEST THING I'VE EVER DONE with keyboards. Adding keys and converting the rubber keys to mechanical are the second best.
So I think you're on the right track :)
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: sordna on Thu, 03 July 2014, 13:39:39
For me best thing I ever did was the palm keys. Did you try that yet?

EDIT: on second thought maybe convincing Kinesis to make the LF was the best thing I did. Tough call. Palm keys was the most fun for sure.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: luisbg on Thu, 03 July 2014, 21:06:06
For me best thing I ever did was the palm keys. Did you try that yet?

EDIT: on second thought maybe convincing Kinesis to make the LF was the best thing I did. Tough call. Palm keys was the most fun for sure.

Palm keys? Mind explaining me what that is?
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: sordna on Thu, 03 July 2014, 21:52:51
For me best thing I ever did was the palm keys. Did you try that yet?

EDIT: on second thought maybe convincing Kinesis to make the LF was the best thing I did. Tough call. Palm keys was the most fun for sure.

Palm keys? Mind explaining me what that is?

See the "extra keys mod" in my sig. If you are in Tapatalk, long pressing a post and selecting "open in browser" allows you to see posts with signatures.

Here's a sample:
(http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=26579.0;attach=3392;image) (http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=26579.0;attach=3388;image)
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: luisbg on Fri, 04 July 2014, 09:37:47
Here's a sample:
Show Image
(http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=26579.0;attach=3392;image)
Show Image
(http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=26579.0;attach=3388;image)


That is pretty cool in a unique kind of way.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: islisis on Fri, 04 July 2014, 19:22:05
i've been finding lately that the backspace key can be used as an effective palm-type mod key (more like base of the thumb, but the activation is done mostly by the weight of the hand so strain-free). useful when dual-roled
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: figit090 on Sat, 05 July 2014, 13:31:51
Can anyone tell me what happened to the "Post your Kinesis Keyboards" thread?
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: davkol on Sat, 05 July 2014, 14:23:04
Can anyone tell me what happened to the "Post your Kinesis Keyboards" thread?
It disappeared with the Kinesis, Unicomp and other subforums, because of inactivity.

I asked mods to restore this particular thread, because it's linked from elsewhere (DT wiki, my review of Kinesis Advantage).
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: jacobolus on Sat, 05 July 2014, 15:18:56
I really dislike the way the mods on this forum disappear stuff. It’s fine to ax subforums, but the threads should all be moved somewhere else (maybe somewhere for “archived threads from deleted subforums”)
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sat, 05 July 2014, 16:35:34
 Threads should not disappear. Ever. Very uncool.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: figit090 on Sun, 06 July 2014, 02:42:41
I really dislike the way the mods on this forum disappear stuff. It’s fine to ax subforums, but the threads should all be moved somewhere else (maybe somewhere for “archived threads from deleted subforums”)

That's really stupid.  I can't even SEARCH for a thread?  Mods, is the server filling up or something? Were those subforums sending new users away because of undue complication or clogging the servers?
I totally understand a limited budget especially if this is fully funded by one or just a few enthusiasts, but accessing old threads by search is even disabled??

Do they bring stuff back?  If so that means it's somewhere and still taking up space so making it searchable isn't a bad idea.  That was a nice thread that I was anxious to go back to, because I like Kinesis boards...and I thought this was a geeky forum where the sillyness of being a "keyboard enthusiast" would go hand in hand with archives of trivial data and discussion about data entry devices. 

Guess I was wrong.  :-\

I was looking forward to seeing Kinesis doing well in the future with their site redesign and imminent new model, so having special sections on their brand was nice.  I guess if they are virtually dead sure, hide them but please let us access old threads.  Did we loose modding and customization threads too?  I'm not here enough to know.

/rant

Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: vvp on Sun, 06 July 2014, 03:04:31
You could have posted to them while they existed to keep them alive :D
But it's too late now.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: johnnyo on Sun, 06 July 2014, 04:43:40
what - the - f**k

this is a forum, no? not an IM

"Post your Advantage" was a fine thread :(
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: sordna on Sun, 06 July 2014, 11:22:24
Folks please mention your concerns here, in a thread about the vanishing vendor forums:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=57664.0
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: figit090 on Sun, 06 July 2014, 19:30:33
You could have posted to them while they existed to keep them alive :D
But it's too late now.

...... :blank:

Folks please mention your concerns here, in a thread about the vanishing vendor forums:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=57664.0


I will thank you.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: mbrown559 on Thu, 24 July 2014, 16:15:39
Waiting for an update on this :).  Myself and 5 others at work are waiting to see the new model before purchasing new keyboards. 

The major functions we would like to see in the new design:
-Truly split design
-Trackpad/Trackball
-Ability to reprogram keys
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: argcargv on Thu, 24 July 2014, 16:48:06
When are they updating the advantage? I am curious.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Fri, 01 August 2014, 12:02:18
When are they updating the advantage? I am curious.

Still a work in process. Wish I had news for everyone but there were some delays and also other products we've been working on launching first. Beta testing should start within 1-3 months (some of you are on the list  :thumb:). Which likely pushes the release date to early 2015.

By the way, if anyone is interested, Kinesis is currently having a sale on refurbished Advantage keyboards for $215.  They come with the same 2 year warranty & 60-day money back guarantee. http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage-for-pc-mac-refurbished/
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: argcargv on Fri, 01 August 2014, 16:36:11
When are they updating the advantage? I am curious.

Still a work in process. Wish I had news for everyone but there were some delays and also other products we've been working on launching first. Beta testing should start within 1-3 months (some of you are on the list  :thumb:). Which likely pushes the release date to early 2015.

By the way, if anyone is interested, Kinesis is currently having a sale on refurbished Advantage keyboards for $215.  They come with the same 2 year warranty & 60-day money back guarantee. http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage-for-pc-mac-refurbished/

May I join the beta testing? My advantage I've been using for a year with my magic trackpad (clicky!) mount modification to prove my worthiness.  :)

I used dashgrip and cut a piece of plastic to hold the trackpad so I can still use the clicky feet of the trackpad. Purposefully place near to the left side so my left hand can reach it without stretching out too much. Changed thumb cluster top keys to flat keys to make more room for the trackpad.

(http://i.imgur.com/JV3FBsz.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/jimji1o.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/RZzYMoE.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/WhZxtT1.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/S7M2BCl.jpg)

album: http://imgur.com/a/IL8ve
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Input Nirvana on Fri, 01 August 2014, 18:31:54
I think Kinesis has been bombarded with every possible request for free beta testing boards, I guess it comes with the territory.

Although I don't specifically know how Kinesis is administering the program, often beta testing involves different groups of people testing different aspects. It can be very specialized, as it should be. That's the idea behind test beds.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: kaltar on Fri, 01 August 2014, 19:00:42
When are they updating the advantage? I am curious.

Still a work in process. Wish I had news for everyone but there were some delays and also other products we've been working on launching first. Beta testing should start within 1-3 months (some of you are on the list  :thumb:). Which likely pushes the release date to early 2015.

By the way, if anyone is interested, Kinesis is currently having a sale on refurbished Advantage keyboards for $215.  They come with the same 2 year warranty & 60-day money back guarantee. http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage-for-pc-mac-refurbished/

May I join the beta testing? My advantage I've been using for a year with my magic trackpad (clicky!) mount modification to prove my worthiness.  :)

I used dashgrip and cut a piece of plastic to hold the trackpad so I can still use the clicky feet of the trackpad. Purposefully place near to the left side so my left hand can reach it without stretching out too much. Changed thumb cluster top keys to flat keys to make more room for the trackpad.

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/JV3FBsz.jpg)


Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/jimji1o.jpg)


Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/RZzYMoE.jpg)


Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/WhZxtT1.jpg)


Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/S7M2BCl.jpg)


album: http://imgur.com/a/IL8ve

great job argcargv. I tried something similar time ago (I got the apple trackpad just for the mod), but I just didn't like it. I know the advantage of using both hands for moving the cursor, but just couldn't get used to it. I used a base of 2 metallic book stands to get a solid stand for it, and did not glue it to the keyboard.

I know, I know... It just looks so functional.
BTW, what size of keys did you use for the thumb cluster?
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: argcargv on Fri, 01 August 2014, 22:03:46
I think Kinesis has been bombarded with every possible request for free beta testing boards, I guess it comes with the territory.

Although I don't specifically know how Kinesis is administering the program, often beta testing involves different groups of people testing different aspects. It can be very specialized, as it should be. That's the idea behind test beds.

I didn't mean it to be free, I would gladly pay double the price for beta testing their new advantage  :thumb:
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: argcargv on Fri, 01 August 2014, 22:06:27
kaltar, the single tall thumb key are SA, the other keys DSA, the flat keys are also from signature plastic.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Input Nirvana on Fri, 01 August 2014, 22:11:02
I think Kinesis has been bombarded with every possible request for free beta testing boards, I guess it comes with the territory.

Although I don't specifically know how Kinesis is administering the program, often beta testing involves different groups of people testing different aspects. It can be very specialized, as it should be. That's the idea behind test beds.

I didn't mean it to be free, I would gladly pay double the price for beta testing their new advantage  :thumb:

Clarification:
My intent wasn't that YOU'RE banging to get a FREE BETA board, I meant that in GENERAL I'm pretty sure peeps either want a free/discounted test board, or access to the beta boards (who wouldn't?)….but I didn't mean to direct anything at you.

But I know it would bring about world peace if Kinesis gave out free Advantage keyboards to the typists of the world.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: lgleasain on Fri, 01 August 2014, 23:27:14
How about a beta program where you pay the expected retail price for the final product,  with the agreement being that you have to return the beta item at the end for the final product when it comes out? 

I would love to be a beta tester for this.

My wish list is a metal case,  backlit keys,  no more rubber control keys and full media key support.

Lance
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: vatin on Sat, 02 August 2014, 03:38:45
Please kinesis. Contoured split design no more rubber keys full programmability and bluetooth. Other than this I would have a hard time parting with my money.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: kaltar on Sat, 02 August 2014, 11:46:13
kaltar, the single tall thumb key are SA, the other keys DSA, the flat keys are also from signature plastic.

thanks. the top thumb keys look almost unreachable, but looks cool.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: argcargv on Sat, 02 August 2014, 12:03:51
I can't reach them with my thumb anyways, and I rarely if ever, use them.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sat, 02 August 2014, 13:26:03
I've often wondered, more now than ever, if Kinesis is missing the boat by not having a different theory of an "upgraded model". Something much different than the Advantage Pro, which really is no different than an Advantage but looks great with an iMac due to the silver/black motif. What if they made an additional model, a limited run, super-upgraded version of the Contoured Advantage?

PBT or equal keycaps
Increased programmability (this is coming soon)
Backlighting (this is coming soon)
Addressing the rubber keys (tough solution)
Color styling options
Better foam wrist pads

REALLY DELUX THIS KEYBOARD!

Granted I did some of these mods and others have done the others, but I'm guessing if they made a highly upgraded model with a very modest price bump, it would be a sales tool to get even more attention and sales interest.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: davkol on Sat, 02 August 2014, 13:27:53
Is Maltron getting extra sales thanks to the pink or gold edition?
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sat, 02 August 2014, 13:30:56
Is Maltron getting extra sales thanks to the pink or gold edition?

Good question.

But I'd think it would be a lot more than a color option. Function over form.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: autoturk on Sun, 03 August 2014, 18:23:42
When are they updating the advantage? I am curious.

Still a work in process. Wish I had news for everyone but there were some delays and also other products we've been working on launching first. Beta testing should start within 1-3 months (some of you are on the list  :thumb:). Which likely pushes the release date to early 2015.

By the way, if anyone is interested, Kinesis is currently having a sale on refurbished Advantage keyboards for $215.  They come with the same 2 year warranty & 60-day money back guarantee. http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage-for-pc-mac-refurbished/

May I join the beta testing? My advantage I've been using for a year with my magic trackpad (clicky!) mount modification to prove my worthiness.  :)

I used dashgrip and cut a piece of plastic to hold the trackpad so I can still use the clicky feet of the trackpad. Purposefully place near to the left side so my left hand can reach it without stretching out too much. Changed thumb cluster top keys to flat keys to make more room for the trackpad.

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/JV3FBsz.jpg)


Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/jimji1o.jpg)


Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/RZzYMoE.jpg)


Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/WhZxtT1.jpg)


Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/S7M2BCl.jpg)


album: http://imgur.com/a/IL8ve

Can you provide some deers about where you got that plastic bit to rest the trackpad on (or if you have an extra left over?)? That is exactly the kind of thing I am looking for to mount my trackpad ( I hate tap to click ).
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: argcargv on Mon, 04 August 2014, 08:01:58
autoturk, I got my plastic from a keyboard roof that I am not using anymore
http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=access,roofs&pid=rfek

I am sure you can find a cheaper piece of plastic that is strong enough to provide a solid foundation.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Mon, 04 August 2014, 11:59:53
I've often wondered, more now than ever, if Kinesis is missing the boat by not having a different theory of an "upgraded model". Something much different than the Advantage Pro, which really is no different than an Advantage but looks great with an iMac due to the silver/black motif. What if they made an additional model, a limited run, super-upgraded version of the Contoured Advantage?

PBT or equal keycaps
Increased programmability (this is coming soon)
Backlighting (this is coming soon)
Addressing the rubber keys (tough solution)
Color styling options
Better foam wrist pads

REALLY DELUX THIS KEYBOARD!

Granted I did some of these mods and others have done the others, but I'm guessing if they made a highly upgraded model with a very modest price bump, it would be a sales tool to get even more attention and sales interest.

This is something we'd like to do. Revamp the Advantage Pro so that it's not just an upgraded Advantage, but many of the things you stated.

BTW, Rubber function rows will be a thing of the past!

Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Input Nirvana on Mon, 04 August 2014, 12:31:23

I've often wondered, more now than ever, if Kinesis is missing the boat by not having a different theory of an "upgraded model". Something much different than the Advantage Pro, which really is no different than an Advantage but looks great with an iMac due to the silver/black motif. What if they made an additional model, a limited run, super-upgraded version of the Contoured Advantage?

PBT or equal keycaps
Increased programmability (this is coming soon)
Backlighting (this is coming soon)
Addressing the rubber keys (tough solution)
Color styling options
Better foam wrist pads

REALLY DELUX THIS KEYBOARD!

Granted I did some of these mods and others have done the others, but I'm guessing if they made a highly upgraded model with a very modest price bump, it would be a sales tool to get even more attention and sales interest.

This is something we'd like to do. Revamp the Advantage Pro so that it's not just an upgraded Advantage, but many of the things you stated.

BTW, Rubber function rows will be a thing of the past!

No more rubberzz?

Yea, I don't need no protection, that's how I roll :)
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: sordna on Mon, 04 August 2014, 12:46:17
Nice to hear you are addressing #4 of my suggestions (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=36195.msg774124.msg#774124)

Any comment on the rest, such as increased tenting angle and more keys?
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: vvp on Mon, 04 August 2014, 13:53:13
... and more keys?
+1
The new Kinesis Advantage needs at least 2 more easily accessible modifier keys: WindowsKey and LayerShift.
I miss them so much that I'm building my own keyboard which has them :)
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Input Nirvana on Mon, 04 August 2014, 14:41:30
I hope they heed MY #1 suggestion and paint dat ting BRIGHT RED!
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Mon, 04 August 2014, 15:18:21
Nice to hear you are addressing #4 of my suggestions (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=36195.msg774124.msg#774124)

Any comment on the rest, such as increased tenting angle and more keys?

Only thing I can comment on is #6. That's a go.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Mon, 04 August 2014, 15:19:19

I've often wondered, more now than ever, if Kinesis is missing the boat by not having a different theory of an "upgraded model". Something much different than the Advantage Pro, which really is no different than an Advantage but looks great with an iMac due to the silver/black motif. What if they made an additional model, a limited run, super-upgraded version of the Contoured Advantage?

PBT or equal keycaps
Increased programmability (this is coming soon)
Backlighting (this is coming soon)
Addressing the rubber keys (tough solution)
Color styling options
Better foam wrist pads

REALLY DELUX THIS KEYBOARD!

Granted I did some of these mods and others have done the others, but I'm guessing if they made a highly upgraded model with a very modest price bump, it would be a sales tool to get even more attention and sales interest.

This is something we'd like to do. Revamp the Advantage Pro so that it's not just an upgraded Advantage, but many of the things you stated.

BTW, Rubber function rows will be a thing of the past!

No more rubberzz?

Yea, I don't need no protection, that's how I roll :)

Such a rebel!
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Input Nirvana on Mon, 04 August 2014, 15:21:05
What's #6?
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: vvp on Mon, 04 August 2014, 15:26:07
LayerShift (or KeypadShift)
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: vvp on Mon, 04 August 2014, 15:29:35
I hope they heed MY #1 suggestion and paint dat ting BRIGHT RED!
ROFL, I like that!
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: hoggy on Mon, 04 August 2014, 15:41:36
Fantastic to hear that things are coming on!
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: kaltar on Mon, 04 August 2014, 15:46:05
Just one more year until we see this new kinesis!
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Input Nirvana on Mon, 04 August 2014, 15:46:34

I hope they heed MY #1 suggestion and paint dat ting BRIGHT RED!
ROFL, I like that!

I kne, right? I'm my sig, the Split Kinesis article (that's still borked, but I have links to pics thanks to CptBadAss) has a pic of a red board and a black board with red home keys (that's mine).
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: argcargv on Mon, 04 August 2014, 16:04:19

I hope they heed MY #1 suggestion and paint dat ting BRIGHT RED!
ROFL, I like that!

I kne, right? I'm my sig, the Split Kinesis article (that's still borked, but I have links to pics thanks to CptBadAss) has a pic of a red board and a black board with red home keys (that's mine).

Can you link the album for your split advantage? I really want to see it but have a hard time sorting through that thread to find the link
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Input Nirvana on Mon, 04 August 2014, 16:06:05
I think the link is at the top (first screen)
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: k3strel on Sat, 30 August 2014, 21:54:53
Another vote for LayerShift and better function keys.

Add those two features and I will replace my current Advantage Pro in a heartbeat

Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: cruzin on Sun, 31 August 2014, 00:09:29
Oh, man. After reading through this thread I'm excited to see the next gen! I don't have any suggestions that haven't already been posted.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: yirimyah on Sun, 31 August 2014, 09:23:51
Yay, a real FN row! Other than that?

1. A trackball. Please, please, a trackball.
2. Other switch options. MX Clears?
3. PBT keycaps - at least as an option - maybe this could be one of the distinguishing factors between the new Advantage and the new Advantage Pro.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sun, 31 August 2014, 12:35:41
Yay, a real FN row! Other than that?

1. A trackball. Please, please, a trackball.
2. Other switch options. MX Clears?
3. PBT keycaps - at least as an option - maybe this could be one of the distinguishing factors between the new Advantage and the new Advantage Pro.

Better than Cherry clears or anything Cherry makes:
Matias switches!
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: vvp on Sun, 31 August 2014, 14:04:52
Better than Cherry clears or anything Cherry makes:
Matias switches!

Heh, and almost no way to get replacement keycaps?
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sun, 31 August 2014, 14:23:14
Better than Cherry clears or anything Cherry makes:
Matias switches!

Heh, and almost no way to get replacement keycaps?

I didn't say it was easy! <joke> but it's totally worth it, the Matias Quiet tactile switches are awesome...tried them at Kiibohd 8 yesterday (as week as the Clicky tactile).

Actually Signature Plastics makes the keycaps we need.
I'm committed to removing the Cherry switches, filing the key wells slightly wider and inserting Matias Quiet Click.

At Kiibohd 8 yesterday I measured the openings of Haatas "cross-platform switch plate" that will hold Cherry AND Matias.... wait for it...wait for it...wait........(approx) 15.5mm x 13.9mm (approx) openings will hold either type switch.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: synerr on Thu, 11 September 2014, 12:28:16
I think we're more likely to see Perl 7 before we get a new Advantage.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Input Nirvana on Thu, 11 September 2014, 13:03:25
I think we're more likely to see Perl 7 before we get a new Advantage.

Doesn't really matter much at this point...so many advancement via GH are happening, that the resources needed to make almost anything is close to hitting the street. We're just about in "the now".

Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: goflo on Wed, 15 October 2014, 15:02:08
@natas206
Any news regarding features and release date?
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: naz on Thu, 06 November 2014, 18:45:46
here is a picture that i haven't see posted on this topic. Would love to see more pics.

(http://cdn.overclock.net/d/df/df3a625c_TheMothershipBlack_zps902e57df.jpeg)

source: http://www.overclock.net/t/1501919/kinesis-ergo-keyboards-post-yours (http://www.overclock.net/t/1501919/kinesis-ergo-keyboards-post-yours)
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Fri, 07 November 2014, 12:20:32
Here are a couple more:

(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c217/natas206/TheMothershipz_zpsf60b6ed2.jpg)

(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c217/natas206/TheMothershipRedLF_zpsdfcb1f36.jpg)

Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: naz on Fri, 07 November 2014, 13:37:16
It's a beauty! is it a prototype of the up comming new version??? (would buy it with in a heart beat)
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Fri, 07 November 2014, 14:55:48
It's a beauty! is it a prototype of the up comming new version??? (would buy it with in a heart beat)

No it's someone's personal mod, I think it originated from a Korean website.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Input Nirvana on Fri, 07 November 2014, 20:40:30
Yes, it's a Korean mod I re-posted in the article (which is still not fixed). He replaced the switches, controller, hand wired, and added the additional keys. I've named it "The Mothership" (because I can't read Korean)
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: pnutster on Sat, 08 November 2014, 22:10:57
When are they updating the advantage? I am curious.

Still a work in process. Wish I had news for everyone but there were some delays and also other products we've been working on launching first. Beta testing should start within 1-3 months (some of you are on the list  :thumb:). Which likely pushes the release date to early 2015.

By the way, if anyone is interested, Kinesis is currently having a sale on refurbished Advantage keyboards for $215.  They come with the same 2 year warranty & 60-day money back guarantee. http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage-for-pc-mac-refurbished/

May I join the beta testing? My advantage I've been using for a year with my magic trackpad (clicky!) mount modification to prove my worthiness.  :)

I used dashgrip and cut a piece of plastic to hold the trackpad so I can still use the clicky feet of the trackpad. Purposefully place near to the left side so my left hand can reach it without stretching out too much. Changed thumb cluster top keys to flat keys to make more room for the trackpad.

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/JV3FBsz.jpg)


Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/jimji1o.jpg)


Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/RZzYMoE.jpg)


Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/WhZxtT1.jpg)


Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/S7M2BCl.jpg)


album: http://imgur.com/a/IL8ve

Recent user of Kinesis Advantage due to tendon problem caused by hunt and peck keyboarding for nearly 2 decades. Frantically feeding my mouse / trackball addiction to find the best one, but finding that trackpad for me is the fastest around (in combination with better touch tool (http://www.boastr.net)). Really liking the above mod. May try that out very soon. Thanks for sharing!
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: VGamer360 on Thu, 20 November 2014, 17:56:37
natas206, I purchased the Kinesis Advantage Pro a few months ago. Do you think there will be any trade-in programs or discounted price of the new keyboard when it hits the market? I'm not expecting any deal like that, but at the price they cost, it would be a nice offer.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: jacobolus on Thu, 20 November 2014, 18:44:17
My advantage I've been using for a year with my magic trackpad (clicky!) mount modification to prove my worthiness.  :)

I used dashgrip and cut a piece of plastic to hold the trackpad so I can still use the clicky feet of the trackpad. Purposefully place near to the left side so my left hand can reach it without stretching out too much. Changed thumb cluster top keys to flat keys to make more room for the trackpad.
(http://i.imgur.com/JV3FBsz.jpg)(http://i.imgur.com/RZzYMoE.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/WhZxtT1.jpg)(http://i.imgur.com/S7M2BCl.jpg)

(pics from argcargv; pulled out of the quotation so they render here)

I somehow didn’t notice this before. I like the use of the SA keycaps on a few keys. I’m curious about the flat low-profile keycaps though. Seems like those would be nearly impossible to press.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: pnutster on Mon, 24 November 2014, 20:53:14
Working 2 months a year in Nova Scotia during summer-time (home-base is Ontario) and travelling with the Kinesis Advantage is a bit of a pain, can't really say it is "mobile friendly"  :eek: Decided to order one for our Nova Scotia summer address. And now I read this post and a bit reluctant to order just yet. Next trip is still half a year away... I can only hope the new Advantage is out before that time.

By no means a long term user of the Kinesis Advantage; ± 1.5 years now, however if there's 1 "complaint", it's the finicky rubber Function keys. Reading that those will be a thing of the past really makes me want to wait with buying now.

I know asking for an ETA is useless, but one can still hope  :p


Edit: Reading is such an art... Just read the entire post where there is a mention by Natas206 of possibly a release by early 2015. That would be perfect timing!!!
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: k3y on Wed, 03 December 2014, 14:02:54
Probably too late for consideration but here are some of my suggestions (not in particular order):

1. Make macros printable to a text doc so we can see what's stored where.

2. Powered USB ports that are accessible (not under the board like currently)

3. Flip feet on the user edge (palm-edge) of the board.

4. PBT keycap option.

5. Change the thumb clusters so the tilt is sloped higher at center of board to lower closer to main key-clusters.  keys/ \keys instead of the current \keys  keys/ slope. I hope that makes sense. They are uncomfortable to me how they currently are. It feels like I'm reaching over the keys to press instead of my thumb moving over to bump the keys which would be much more ergonomic in my opinion.

Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: highend on Mon, 22 December 2014, 22:04:36
Hi,

does any beta tester got a sample yet? I've just bought the current version of the advantage keyboard but I don't know if I should keep it. The function keys are (sorry) ridiculous and if it's really out in only a few months I'd send the current one back (not a problem with Amazon) and wait for the new version.

 
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: pw on Tue, 30 December 2014, 19:08:50
Any update on the likely release date for this? Id like to get a column-aligned keyboard, and I think the kinesis would be most suitable for me. Still, I don't want to invest in one and have a new improved model released the next day (or even month!).

Re improvements: maybe a lower profile, and some sound damping or stiffening to make it quieter.

I prefer a single-piece keyboard for convenience and a tidy desk, and that would keep costs down too I guess.


Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: pnutster on Tue, 30 December 2014, 22:29:24
Any update on the likely release date for this? Id like to get a column-aligned keyboard, and I think the kinesis would be most suitable for me. Still, I don't want to invest in one and have a new improved model released the next day (or even month!).

Re improvements: maybe a lower profile, and some sound damping or stiffening to make it quieter.

I prefer a single-piece keyboard for convenience and a tidy desk, and that would keep costs down too I guess.

As far as I know, the latest known is still "Early 2015". Eager to buy my 2nd Kinesis Advantage, but same as you describe, don't want to order now knowing a new release is coming soon. As far as I read with real function keys!!!
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: yirimyah on Tue, 20 January 2015, 18:31:59
+1. Would like to get an Advantage but this close to release date I'm going to hold off.

Also, your FreeStyle Blue would be a fantastic keyboard if you hadn't put rubber domes on it.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: highend on Thu, 19 February 2015, 15:02:56
Any official statement about the status of the development of the new Advantage?
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: pnutster on Thu, 19 February 2015, 15:28:17
I contacted Natas206 not so long ago.

Quote
Hi! Sorry for the lack of updates. We had a few hurdles with the new firmware that we finally solved, so we've made tremendous amount of progress just in the past few weeks alone. We are getting closer! Still no ETA though, but beta testing should start soon.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: highend on Fri, 20 February 2015, 04:04:22
Thanks pnutster for posting that information. I hope the new version will be worth it's money...
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: ogregev on Fri, 20 February 2015, 08:23:35

May I join the beta testing? My advantage I've been using for a year with my magic trackpad (clicky!) mount modification to prove my worthiness.  :)

I used dashgrip and cut a piece of plastic to hold the trackpad so I can still use the clicky feet of the trackpad. Purposefully place near to the left side so my left hand can reach it without stretching out too much. Changed thumb cluster top keys to flat keys to make more room for the trackpad.

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/JV3FBsz.jpg)


Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/jimji1o.jpg)


Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/RZzYMoE.jpg)


Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/WhZxtT1.jpg)


Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/S7M2BCl.jpg)


album: http://imgur.com/a/IL8ve

Here is my variation on that theme.  I had an aluminum plate machined to the same size as the Magic Trackpad.  I applied a layer of velcro to the rounded front edge of the trackpad and left the rear edge floating.  The front velcro acts as a hinge allowing the rear buttons under the pad to press on the plate.  Lastly, I velcroed the plate to the keyboard.

[attachimg=1][attachimg=2]
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: nimrod01 on Fri, 20 February 2015, 08:31:57
I'm another waiting on feedback on the new release.  I recently have my Advantage die on me and something I'd really like is more substantial function keys... And well, after seeing this thread, I'm not go order one until further news on a refresh of this keyboard.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Fri, 20 February 2015, 12:17:40
I'm another waiting on feedback on the new release.  I recently have my Advantage die on me and something I'd really like is more substantial function keys... And well, after seeing this thread, I'm not go order one until further news on a refresh of this keyboard.

What's wrong with your current keyboard? Often times there are easy fixes to get it working again (replacing the USB cable, firmware chip, etc.). It's worth contacting tech@kinesis.com to see what we can do.

As for the updates... sorry guys still tight lipped for now. As pnutster pointed out, we're hoping to start beta testing soon (within 1-3 months).
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: ElectronicFur on Wed, 04 March 2015, 15:14:22
Oh, good to hear it's getting close to release.

Does anyone know if this new keyboard has bluetooth, or if it's easy to mod the old one to have bluetooth?

Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Findecanor on Wed, 04 March 2015, 18:09:24
As for the updates... sorry guys still tight lipped for now. As pnutster pointed out, we're hoping to start beta testing soon (within 1-3 months).
When you do, see what happens when you hold down seven keys at once. ;)
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: uberben on Wed, 04 March 2015, 22:16:18
Oh, good to hear it's getting close to release.

Does anyone know if this new keyboard has bluetooth, or if it's easy to mod the old one to have bluetooth?



I'm working on a replacement controller for the old Kinesis that does bluetooth. It is probably still a few months away, but it is coming.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Mon, 09 March 2015, 18:50:35
As for the updates... sorry guys still tight lipped for now. As pnutster pointed out, we're hoping to start beta testing soon (within 1-3 months).
When you do, see what happens when you hold down seven keys at once. ;)

Is there a good reason for needing more than 6 + modifier keys on an ergo keyboard?
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: ElectronicFur on Tue, 10 March 2015, 08:16:38
I'm working on a replacement controller for the old Kinesis that does bluetooth. It is probably still a few months away, but it is coming.

That sounds great. I take it that it's not straightforward to add bluetooth to the Advantage then?

Cheers,
Menno
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: uberben on Tue, 10 March 2015, 08:28:03
That sounds great. I take it that it's not straightforward to add bluetooth to the Advantage then?

Well, there is the easy route of buying a USB to bluetooth adapter and shoving it inside the case, but I'm hoping to add some other features to my board. The pcb will allow for adding extra switches and I plan to add a trackball and/or trackpoint, among other things. I'm also hopeful that my board will have better battery life as I have control over how the thing sleeps, but software will be the last piece of the puzzle.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: mannelig on Sat, 14 March 2015, 03:31:32
The pcb will allow for adding extra switches and I plan to add a trackball and/or trackpoint, among other things.

Wow, that would be great for upgrading old Advantages after new will come out. I hope you'll succeed (and hope to buy one kit)!
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: goflo on Tue, 24 March 2015, 11:40:43
Time keeps ticking away....
Any news yet?

Is it possible to be a part of beta testing?  ;D
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Canut on Wed, 01 April 2015, 10:34:07
And as April 1st rolls by again... one more lap around the Sun.
[attach=1]
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: againer on Sat, 04 April 2015, 15:47:25
My wish list: (and the reason why I got a ergodx instead of a kinesis)


F- Keys with cherry mx switches
fully programmable custom firmware
split design

option for blue and clear switches too, not only brown and red switches
and white blank keycaps would look really hot on a black  kinesis
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sun, 05 April 2015, 14:50:51



R.I.P.

[attachimg=1]


Spock was the bestest
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: user888 on Wed, 08 April 2015, 12:52:21
I expect:


I really do hope to see at least two extra keys left and right below the shift keys.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: jacobolus on Wed, 08 April 2015, 18:43:10
I expect [...] Rubber F-keys replaced with Cherry ML switches
Why do you expect that? Why would they use ML instead of MX? They’re not really pressed for space.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Mon, 13 April 2015, 11:46:24



R.I.P.

(Attachment Link)


Spock was the bestest

(https://cdn2.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/M7tVz1lg-4wP2XGOOrkDoDLlpPw=/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/3348598/hTRBwWl.0.gif)
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: pnutster on Fri, 01 May 2015, 17:45:00
Tempted to get the 25% off on Massdrop: https://www.massdrop.com/buy/kinesis-advantage?mode=guest_open (https://www.massdrop.com/buy/kinesis-advantage?mode=guest_open) if it weren't for the fact that the new Kinesis Advantage is looming around the corner.

Do you see the new Kinesis coming out in 3-4 months from now? I know you can't give any ETA, but hopefully you are able to say if it is going to happen within 3-4 months or not...
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: automator on Sat, 02 May 2015, 10:38:02
Do you see the new Kinesis coming out in 3-4 months from now? I know you can't give any ETA, but hopefully you are able to say if it is going to happen within 3-4 months or not...

The lack of updates on this frustrating at best.  I think if there was a definite release date by now we would have heard it, as it is I've not even seen any rumors of a beta release so I would not get my hopes up.  Keep in mind this is a company that is not known for moving fast; I'm typing right now on a 15 year old model (maybe more, it actually has an AT connector) that is by no means the first model they made, and it is virtually identical to the new ones.  When I got this keyboard, my computer had 64 MEGS of ram, and that was a lot!

As I think I expressed previously, bring me a mechanical, grid, contoured keyboard with true split and sufficient modifier keys and you can name your price.

Me, on the other hand, despite the old keyboard in front of me now, my life moves fast.  This whole keyboard thing could be a lot of enegry I shouldn't be wasting.  I'm really starting to think I should put my 2 kinesis at the curb, forget I ever heard of alternative keyboards or ever learned Dvorak.  Like learning to play the saxophone, wasted time for a useless skill I'm now embarrassed to carry.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sat, 02 May 2015, 11:27:31
Damn.
Don't give up. Hobby is a great time waster...admittedly.
It's a great option for a keyboard with many mod-capabilities. I like the lists that are in this thread, and the one you've posted. New keyboard will come out eventually, the longer it takes the better it will be. A lot o advancements and the bar is being raised every few months. True-split is huge and that's the toughest sell it seems. But I picked up on that on Day 1.

Kinesis maybe should not have mentioned having an update in the works. Be more like Apple, it seems to work for them.

I checked out Apple watch yesterday. Very neat, very high quality. But I doubt it's for me, not a watch kinda guy and I don't need an update on my heartbeat
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: vvp on Sat, 02 May 2015, 12:40:41
As I think I expressed previously, bring me a mechanical, grid, contoured keyboard with true split and sufficient modifier keys and you can name your price.
Kayty keyboard. (http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/katy-keyboard-or-k80cs-key80-contoured-split-t8524.html#p222016)
But it is DIY (at least for now). That means if you do not enjoy building it then it is the most expensive keyboard ever ... or almost.
There are two more projects like Katy. Although, as far as I know, they are in earlier stages than Katy:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=71263.0
https://github.com/adereth/dactyl-cave/
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sat, 02 May 2015, 13:21:35
AWESOME PROGRESS ON THOSE PROJECTS!

But as was mentioned earlier in this thread, an adjustable thumb cluster is crucial to ergonomics  I've briefly discussed with Kurplop and believe he's been tinkering with a Kinesis for that purpose.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: vvp on Sat, 02 May 2015, 13:33:13
an adjustable thumb cluster is crucial to ergonomics
You are probably right. Thumb cluster was the main reason I started Katy. Otherwise I would just stick with Kinesis Advantage.
As far as I know, it is ideal for me as it is now :)
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sat, 02 May 2015, 13:36:16
an adjustable thumb cluster is crucial to ergonomics
You are probably right. Thumb cluster was the main reason I started Katy. Otherwise I would just stick with Kinesis Advantage.
As far as I know, it is ideal for me as it is now :)

You have a great project. I don't know if I've commented on it previously, but I'm impressed.
Thanks for the efforts, many appreciate it!

Also, I may finally get involved funding, marketing, pulling together several large companies for these types of products, so maybe at some point we can touch base as you get further along.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: vvp on Sat, 02 May 2015, 13:45:58
Thanks.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Wed, 06 May 2015, 12:27:22
Tempted to get the 25% off on Massdrop: https://www.massdrop.com/buy/kinesis-advantage?mode=guest_open (https://www.massdrop.com/buy/kinesis-advantage?mode=guest_open) if it weren't for the fact that the new Kinesis Advantage is looming around the corner.

Do you see the new Kinesis coming out in 3-4 months from now? I know you can't give any ETA, but hopefully you are able to say if it is going to happen within 3-4 months or not...

I can say confidently the new version will not be available within 3-4 months. I am sorry it's taken so long. We had a number of setbacks that delayed progress and I really thought at the time we would have had a new version by now, but things happen.

Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: pnutster on Wed, 06 May 2015, 12:31:47
Thanks for the reply.

Definitely went for the 25% off deal. And now have to ponder about the recent additional options... RED LF hmmmmm - too many choices!!!
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: user888 on Tue, 02 June 2015, 03:18:20
I can say confidently the new version will not be available within 3-4 months. I am sorry it's taken so long. We had a number of setbacks that delayed progress and I really thought at the time we would have had a new version by now, but things happen.

Thanks for the reply. Now I know I don't have to check your website daily :-) Any teasers about the new keyboard in the meantime?
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: m0j0 on Fri, 12 June 2015, 16:58:06
Excellent news! I just have three questions, if you can answer them:   

I'm new to the board, and this is literally my first post. I stumbled across the site searching for a more elegant solution to the Windows 7 issue without having to use the PS2 adapter kludge. The kludge DOES work, but it bugs me on a fundamental OCD level. I have been very happy with my Advantage keyboards, with the exception of the Windows 7 USB 3.0 driver issue.

Thanks!
m0j0
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: jamadagni on Sun, 14 June 2015, 23:24:19
Maybe get rid of the non mechanical keys and add a trackpoint?
+1 for both of the above.

I guess lots of people dislike the non-mechanical F keys on the Advantage. It's like a blot on an otherwise well-thought out device, and basically the one big thing that's preventing me from going for an item right now. Especially when doing sequences like Ctrl+Alt+Fx it's going to be weird hitting a non-mechanical key just for that last keystroke.

Also, the big space in the middle of the two wells seems an ideal place for a touchpad (I never got the hang of trackpoints). You can move the LEDs (with a bit more separate please) to the top above the touchpad, and place the Kinesis/Advantage logos to the left and right of the thumb areas.

Edit: On second (or actually third!) thoughts, looking at other posts, it seems a trackball is possibly more useful than a touchpad (especially when navigating to distant areas of the screen)...
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: jamadagni on Sun, 14 June 2015, 23:42:30
Tempted to get the 25% off on Massdrop: https://www.massdrop.com/buy/kinesis-advantage?mode=guest_open (https://www.massdrop.com/buy/kinesis-advantage?mode=guest_open) if it weren't for the fact that the new Kinesis Advantage is looming around the corner.
It seems that that drop is over and right now 145 users are requesting a new one for a target of 200. Perhaps the new drop can target the new item? Is there any projected MRP cost for the new model and how much it will cost on a drop?

Thanks.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: m0j0 on Mon, 15 June 2015, 09:35:07
Maybe get rid of the non mechanical keys and add a trackpoint?
+1 for both of the above.

I guess lots of people dislike the non-mechanical F keys on the Advantage. It's like a blot on an otherwise well-thought out device, and basically the one big thing that's preventing me from going for an item right now. Especially when doing sequences like Ctrl+Alt+Fx it's going to be weird hitting a non-mechanical key just for that last keystroke.

Also, the big space in the middle of the two wells seems an ideal place for a touchpad (I never got the hang of trackpoints). You can move the LEDs (with a bit more separate please) to the top above the touchpad, and place the Kinesis/Advantage logos to the left and right of the thumb areas.

Edit: On second (or actually third!) thoughts, looking at other posts, it seems a trackball is possibly more useful than a touchpad (especially when navigating to distant areas of the screen)...

I like the idea of making the function keys mechanical, but I'm opposed to adding a touchpad or trackball to the Advantage. I think that between the keys is an awkward place to put a trackball or touchpad, and I prefer to keep my mouse to the side of the keyboard. Just my opinion, of course. Hopefully if Kinesis DID implement something like that, it would be easy to completely disable.

Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: davkol on Mon, 15 June 2015, 11:54:58
I'd be great, if the empty space wasn't stupidly curved, and I certainly wouldn't pay premium for a touchpad (or probably anything else for that matter, because I already have a decent trackball, which cost 1/2 of a Kinesis Advantage).
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: goflo on Fri, 19 June 2015, 10:15:14
After some weeks with a Slimblade Trackball between my ergodox I must say....I would prefer a seperate mouse. I keep hitting the thumb cluster with my palm. So turning the hand to the left for the trackball or right for the mouse....doesn't matter to me  :rolleyes:
But what matters....any ETA available? Any news for Kinesis?
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: dusanx on Fri, 19 June 2015, 16:37:54
Ok, I've been watching this thread for ages. Happily typing on my LF so I'd like to see new version and upgrade while we are young ;)

Only real answer to pointing device positioning is to split halves and I damn hope that's what Kinesis did. That way any device can fit on either side or in the middle, without forcing people to adopt whatever Kinesis may or may not be attaching to Advantage. Advantage is perfect for me but pointing device and its position are far too individual to have one size fit all adoption.

Less important, but I'd love to see some crazy Japanese red lacquer keys edition, like that rare HHKB has.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Ghibli on Tue, 23 June 2015, 01:28:45
Tempted to get the 25% off on Massdrop: https://www.massdrop.com/buy/kinesis-advantage?mode=guest_open (https://www.massdrop.com/buy/kinesis-advantage?mode=guest_open) if it weren't for the fact that the new Kinesis Advantage is looming around the corner.
hmmm
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: incrediblemath on Mon, 06 July 2015, 23:09:51
Also, the big space in the middle of the two wells seems an ideal place for a touchpad (I never got the hang of trackpoints).

I currently have an Apple Magic Trackpad velcro'd to my Kinesis in-between the keywells, and I've ended up not using it that much. Without the ability to use the trackpad's hardware click, it's useful only for scrolling and the occasional pointing with tap-to-click. I'd much prefer a trackpoint in the same area, if only because I dislike having to do multiple mouse-like gestures to select/drag items over long distances (and the latency added to support that).
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: curious on Wed, 15 July 2015, 20:37:59
Is this new version looking more like 2016?  Debating if I want to wait at all.

I can say confidently the new version will not be available within 3-4 months. I am sorry it's taken so long. We had a number of setbacks that delayed progress and I really thought at the time we would have had a new version by now, but things happen.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: dusanx on Mon, 10 August 2015, 03:42:04
"I am here... on your desk!"


Cmon guys, some new info?
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: vvp on Mon, 10 August 2015, 06:55:15
Is this new version looking more like 2016?  Debating if I want to wait at all.
No, you do not want to wait. Almost nothing is on time. I would say the only difference is when a company announces something which is already made and stocked. But in such a case the expected release is always at most a month or two in the future. So if something is announced in a longer time frame then consider it vaporware.

Buy the best you can afford now and replace it when something new and better is released.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Snarfangel on Wed, 19 August 2015, 09:13:48
I'm not sure if natas206 is still keeping an eye on this thread (probably so, but one never can tell), but on the software side of the keyboard, can you make reprogramming the keys as easy as the keyboard layout analyzer on the patorjk.com website (http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer/#/config (http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer/#/config))? You can drag and drop keys from one place to another, or click on a key and change the character associated with it. Plus, you can put separate layers on each key from the same interface (Primary Key, Shift Key, Alt Gr, Shift + Alt Gr) and have everything clearly visible on the main screen.

A keyboard that allowed changing layouts that easily, and exporting/importing layouts from one keyboard to another (which would allow easy sharing of layouts) would be awesome.

(The software may already be set in stone, or perhaps a variation of the Ergodox configurator is being used, or something else entirely, I just thought I would ask).
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: user888 on Thu, 20 August 2015, 03:22:31
A teaser would be welcome to prevent me from buying an ErgoDox when it appears again on Massdrop again...  :D
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Fri, 21 August 2015, 15:36:01
Thanks for your patience everyone, we are really close!

Just so you know what to expect, the overall design of the keyboard is going to be pretty much the same. What will be changed is all of the electronics. As some of you know, our current Advantage keyboard have experienced some compatibility issues (mainly the Windows 7 USB 3.0 problem). Our main focus has been redesigning the electronics from the ground up to resolve all of these issues and eliminate some of the old bugs (stuck modifier for example, as well as add some really cool new features. There were a few delays on the way but we are very close now.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Snarfangel on Fri, 21 August 2015, 18:27:36
I really look forward to seeing pictures of it, then seeing reviews, then seeing it show up on Massdrop.  :))
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: dusanx on Sat, 22 August 2015, 09:40:13
the overall design of the keyboard is going to be pretty much the same.

Noooo. Split it in half. Make two halves. You know you want to. Its not too late! Do it! Do it! USB compatibility while probably important for some does not change much for many others. It is forced compatibility 1.x upgrade, not 2.0 jump I was hoping for.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: vvp on Sat, 22 August 2015, 13:04:20
Noooo. Split it in half. Make two halves.
I disagree. Let them release what they have done or almost have done. Otherwise we risk feature creep and a keyboard which is never going to be released since features are being added late in the cycle. Better a good keyboard but available now than a perfect keyboard which does not exist.
Kinesis can make new versions which add more features (like e.g. a split keyboard) later when they release what is almost ready.

If you need split kinesis like keyboard so much then search this site. There are posts about how people did split their Kinesis Contoured keyboards (e.g. bluecar5556, and I think InputNirvana (or sordna?) did it too).
There are also new projects about how to build a split contoured keyboard:
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: dusanx on Sat, 22 August 2015, 16:57:25
Noooo. Split it in half. Make two halves.
I disagree. Let them release what they have done or almost have done. Otherwise we risk feature creep and a keyboard which is never going to be released since features are being added late in the cycle. Better a good keyboard but available now than a perfect keyboard which does not exist.
Kinesis can make new versions which add more features (like e.g. a split keyboard) later when they release what is almost ready.

If you need split kinesis like keyboard so much then search this site. There are posts about how people did split their Kinesis Contoured keyboards (e.g. bluecar5556, and I think InputNirvana (or sordna?) did it too).
There are also new projects about how to build a split contoured keyboard:
  • Katy (K80CS) (http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/katy-keyboard-or-k80cs-key80-contoured-split-t8524.html)
  • rsheldiii's keyboard (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=71263.0)
  • dactyl cave (https://github.com/adereth/dactyl-cave/)

Sadly I have zero skills with cutting and gluing and stuff. I bet those are all fine keyboards you linked but they all have specific angles and wells, which makes new keyboard adoption harder. We can hardly talk about feature creep since this thread exists since 2012.

I was just reacting to OP basically saying 'it is looking the same on the outside', while people asked for split and non rubbery function keys years ago. Maybe I was reading it wrong, we'll see.

I love my LF, layout is perfect, but those two halves have to be able to split meter away if needed. I catch myself wishing to stretch during long programming sessions and I can't move halves away because it is solid block keyboard.

If all the changes, after three years of announcements, turn out to be bugfixing software and electronics inside, I'd be bit confused.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: user888 on Mon, 24 August 2015, 06:26:46
Thanks for your patience everyone, we are really close!

Just so you know what to expect, the overall design of the keyboard is going to be pretty much the same. What will be changed is all of the electronics. As some of you know, our current Advantage keyboard have experienced some compatibility issues (mainly the Windows 7 USB 3.0 problem). Our main focus has been redesigning the electronics from the ground up to resolve all of these issues and eliminate some of the old bugs (stuck modifier for example, as well as add some really cool new features. There were a few delays on the way but we are very close now.

Thanks for your response. Most work done on the electronics and software side. On the hardware side I already learnt that you'd replace the rubber dome F-keys with Cherry ML. Is that still the case?

I think keeping the design mostly the same is a good thing, but I really do hope you've planned for two extra modifier keys at the bottom left and right.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: hoggy on Mon, 24 August 2015, 07:14:20
The advantage has always been good for modifications, I hope the new version will keep it in mind - how about selling kits for palm keys and the like?
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: jamadagni on Wed, 26 August 2015, 23:14:39
Thanks for your response. Most work done on the electronics and software side. On the hardware side I already learnt that you'd replace the rubber dome F-keys with Cherry ML. Is that still the case?

AFAIK natas206 has not announced (at least on this thread) that they are going to replace the F keys as requested. He only said they have upgraded the electronics, and key caps are not electronics. It would make for more cost too...
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: naz on Thu, 27 August 2015, 07:01:56
Thanks for your response. Most work done on the electronics and software side. On the hardware side I already learnt that you'd replace the rubber dome F-keys with Cherry ML. Is that still the case?

AFAIK natas206 has not announced (at least on this thread) that they are going to replace the F keys as requested. He only said they have upgraded the electronics, and key caps are not electronics. It would make for more cost too...

a few post back he said "BTW, Rubber function rows will be a thing of the past!", so at least there was an intention to change them at some point
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: sordna on Fri, 28 August 2015, 01:15:52
The advantage has always been good for modifications, I hope the new version will keep it in mind - how about selling kits for palm keys and the like?

+1
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Fri, 28 August 2015, 12:36:24
Thanks for your response. Most work done on the electronics and software side. On the hardware side I already learnt that you'd replace the rubber dome F-keys with Cherry ML. Is that still the case?

AFAIK natas206 has not announced (at least on this thread) that they are going to replace the F keys as requested. He only said they have upgraded the electronics, and key caps are not electronics. It would make for more cost too...

a few post back he said "BTW, Rubber function rows will be a thing of the past!", so at least there was an intention to change them at some point

You're right I haven't announced anything but it's definitely the plan to replace the rubber f-keys.

Also, it's not just bug fixes here we completely re-designed the electronics from the ground up, so it's not like changing the firmware  or tweaking a couple things; it's been a complete redesign. With this new design comes new features that weren't possible on the older models (really cool features).

A split version could come at a later date but we really need to get this new version of the electronics out there ASAP.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: hoggy on Fri, 28 August 2015, 13:32:50
I can understand that.

Will the new controller be compatible with older keyboards? Will it be available separately?

The advantage's controller was the best in the biz for quite a while...
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: dusanx on Fri, 28 August 2015, 16:51:16
Quote from: natas206
A split version could come at a later date

I'd pay 50% more than regular price for properly split (cable, bluetooth, who cares) version. The one that's split in factory and looking good.
I believe I am not alone in wanting this, see post #3 in this thread for instance.

I really hope it won't take another several years to see it done.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: jamadagni on Sat, 29 August 2015, 09:25:05
You're right I haven't announced anything but it's definitely the plan to replace the rubber f-keys.
That's good!
Quote
Also, it's not just bug fixes here we completely re-designed the electronics from the ground up, so it's not like changing the firmware  or tweaking a couple things; it's been a complete redesign. With this new design comes new features that weren't possible on the older models (really cool features).

Can you give details on at least some of those "really cool features"?

And what is the projected retail price?
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: vvp on Sat, 29 August 2015, 16:32:47
Can you give details on at least some of those "really cool features"?
Some were already announced:
* PC application to view/redefine remaps and macros
* bug fixes and it will work with with USB3 on Win7

You can get these with chrisandreae's controller and firmware. Well his PC application works on linux only.  On windows, it needs to move control packets from HID controlled endpoint to something more capable (like a WinUSB controlled endpoint plus add at least a dummy interface so that WinUSB driver is loaded at all). Somebody may do it sometimes.

I'm curious whether there is something more to the kinesis firmware too.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Steven Tammen on Sat, 29 August 2015, 18:51:09
I would be a big fan of being able to remap the firmware by means of software rather than built in reprogrammability. It would make switching to layouts other than the built in Dvorak/QWERTY much better (though I'm sure this is convenience not necessity speaking). If better layering support was included too, I'd be sold completely.

On a similar note, providing the option for blank key-caps again would be appreciated by those of us who eschew normal positions. Blank key-caps are just prettier too ;D.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: vvp on Sun, 30 August 2015, 03:44:34
I would be a big fan of being able to remap the firmware by means of software rather than built in reprogrammability.
I expect remapping using a PC application will be there in addition to the original on-the-fly remap/macro. On-the-fly remap is cool when you want to make a new layer with just a few keys changed to test an idea.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Mon, 31 August 2015, 14:58:32
You're right I haven't announced anything but it's definitely the plan to replace the rubber f-keys.
That's good!
Quote
Also, it's not just bug fixes here we completely re-designed the electronics from the ground up, so it's not like changing the firmware  or tweaking a couple things; it's been a complete redesign. With this new design comes new features that weren't possible on the older models (really cool features).

Can you give details on at least some of those "really cool features"?

And what is the projected retail price?


I can provide some small details.

There will be several ways to program the keyboard. On-board programming will remain. A non-driverless, non-application method and we also plan on having an app available as well. You will have the ability to upload/download your layout(s) to/from your computer directly to the keyboard. I'm sure many of you who have advanced programming know how time consuming and frustrating it can be if the memory of the keyboard is ever wiped and you have to start from scratch. This way you will be able to save your layout and share them with others as well. If you create a cool layout you could in theory upload it to a link on Geekhack and share it with the community. Others could then make their own tweaks and so on. You can also store multiple layouts in the keyboard.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: jamadagni on Tue, 01 September 2015, 21:20:15
@natas206: Great to know about the Cherry F keys!

Did I miss anything or haven't you yet posted the ETA? And I noticed you diplomatically haven't yet outed the price... ;-)
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Fri, 04 September 2015, 13:30:38
@natas206: Great to know about the Cherry F keys!

Did I miss anything or haven't you yet posted the ETA? And I noticed you diplomatically haven't yet outed the price... ;-)

I don't have a set date yet.  The cost should be right around the same. Possibly a tad higher at first just because costs are higher for us, but nothing drastic (maybe $10-$25 more).
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: davkol on Fri, 04 September 2015, 15:12:25
Cherry ML confirmed (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h13oU0r4hOk), it seems.

Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: hoggy on Sat, 05 September 2015, 11:51:49
Yay!
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: vatin on Sat, 05 September 2015, 22:09:27
Cherry ML confirmed (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h13oU0r4hOk), it seems.

Is this the new advantage?
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: mannelig on Sun, 06 September 2015, 05:20:00
Seems to be chances to upgrade old Advantage with new ML-switches are high.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: highend on Wed, 23 September 2015, 18:16:18
Quote
Seems to be chances to upgrade old Advantage with new ML-switches are high.

In a year or two? But only if you're lucky. Veeeeery lucky^^
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: m0j0 on Wed, 23 September 2015, 18:52:59
Quote
Seems to be chances to upgrade old Advantage with new ML-switches are high.

In a year or two? But only if you're lucky. Veeeeery lucky^^

I cannot comment on how quickly they will release the new Advantage2.

I will say that I've had the pleasure of testing a prototype, and I'm eagerly looking forward to its release. I think it'll be worth the wait. I will not comment on the new functionality; I figure Kinesis will release details when they deem the time is right. However, I was very impressed with the functionality of the prototype I tested, and I plan to order two (one for work, one for home) when they're available. It's literally a case of, "...shut up and take my money!"   :)
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: glax on Mon, 28 September 2015, 05:26:35
Cherry ML confirmed (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h13oU0r4hOk), it seems.


so let's see what's there.

Could not see a cable, although it might be visible in that perspective. So bluetooth option not ruled out yet ;-)
Mechanical function keys.
It seems that rubber keycaps are replaced by hard ones. Number, size and layout of functional keys seems the same.
Modified function keys allow switching between dvorac/qwerty (F3/F4), and pc/mac/win layout (F5, F6, F7). Seems to replace "=p" "=m" "=c".
Cannot read F8 key. May be something like "clear map".
F1 modifier gives a status, maybe something like "=s".

Any ideas for F1/F2 modifier?

So as hinted by natas206, same layout, rubber function keys replaced by mech switches with maintained layout, functional enhancements. For me, that is enough to wait for the new keyboard for buying.

However, I would have loved to have standard sized function keys (F1-F12) as a further row ontop of the number's row integrated into the key wells, maybe with the keys not fitting there (esc, print, scrlock, break, keypad, prog) added as further three-key-thumb-columns left and right the thumb blocks, respectively (where they seem to be sill easier accessible than in the present position). But I understand that this required a major overhaul including a fundamental redesign of the case, which might lead to considerabe increased production costs.

So let's see the device when it is finished.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: vvp on Mon, 28 September 2015, 05:37:48
Removing "=s", "=p", "=m", "=c" special chords is a god-sent present for any programmer.
Imagine how bad it is when you do not release = key quickly enough while typing expressions and the result is a switch of your keyboard to a different mode!
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Fri, 02 October 2015, 12:06:28
Removing "=s", "=p", "=m", "=c" special chords is a god-sent present for any programmer.
Imagine how bad it is when you do not release = key quickly enough while typing expressions and the result is a switch of your keyboard to a different mode!

Yes, that could be really frustrating! There was a bit of a work-around to anyone that experienced this problem by creating a single key "=" macro stored in the "=" key. This then disables the equals plus letter key command. And for the times you legit need to switch modes, you can temporarily disable macros (Progrm+F10).
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Torious on Wed, 07 October 2015, 10:46:11
I've been waiting since late 2014 for the new keyboard. At that time, a Kinesis representative said the new Advantage was scheduled for 2015 Q1. Now it's Q4. That's fine and I understand these things happen. However, had I known, I would have bought an old Advantage end of 2014. So now my question, can you give *any* rough estimate? Say "first half of 2016" or "second half of 2016" or something?
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: vvp on Wed, 07 October 2015, 12:59:32
natas206: I used the workaround but it exposed some intermittent firmware bug which resulted in repeated keystrokes. I think it was repeated equal sign but I'm not sure. It was still a bit better situation since it is easier to notice a repeated keystrokes than a silent mode switch.

Torious: If you want to buy something then never wait for expected release date. Schedules slip all the time. Buy now and replace later if the new version is worth it. The only exception may be releases of complicated products (like e.g. a new phone) which are announced about a month in advance. When the release is announced so soon then it means the product is already developed and produced and they wait only for the retail stores to receive the items.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: m0j0 on Wed, 07 October 2015, 16:33:25
I've been waiting since late 2014 for the new keyboard. At that time, a Kinesis representative said the new Advantage was scheduled for 2015 Q1. Now it's Q4. That's fine and I understand these things happen. However, had I known, I would have bought an old Advantage end of 2014. So now my question, can you give *any* rough estimate? Say "first half of 2016" or "second half of 2016" or something?

I already own two Advantage Pros--one for home, and one for the office. I'm actually considering picking up yet another Advantage, even though I *KNOW* that the Advantage2 is coming "Real Soon Now™".   ;)

An additional keyboard is cheaper than a high-end KVM solution, especially since I have a mix of Linux, OS X, and Windows scattered throughout my home.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: cogito_ergo_sum on Tue, 13 October 2015, 13:35:34
1. Add an optional GUI to allow quicker programming and switching between layouts. However, keep the ability to program from the board.
2. Replace the rubber keys with something better.
3. Make the board slimmer.
4. Don't add trackpads or other pointing devices at the top. Leave the area open for users to modify themselves.   
5. Replicate the functionality of MouseKeys by toggling. Make it so those functions can be copied to the Kinesis footpad.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: chamcham on Sun, 25 October 2015, 20:33:33
Hello Everyone,

This is my first post.
Please be gentle.  ;)

1) I am not sure if this has already been suggested.
Sometimes I wish some characters had their own individual keys (instead of needing to press Shift every time).
Is it possible to add these extra keys to your keyboard?  Maybe adding some additional physical keys that have no default mappings.
They would be use for custom key mappings. I'm asking for more physical keys that the standard PC keyboard layouts.
So that you wouldn't need the Shift keys for many characters.


Maybe some of these left and right keys should be right next to each other.

WOULD LOVE TO ADD MORE PHYSICAL KEYS FOR THESE (especially for coding)
() Left and right parentheses
{} Left and right curly braces
[] Left and right brackets
<> Greater than and less than
: colon
; semicolon

NOT NECESSARY, BUT WOULD BE NICE
| Unix pipe
? question mark
# hashtag
@ at sign
$ dollar
% percent
+ plus sign
* asterik
& ampersand
~ tilde

2) Also, not sure if Kinesis already has it, but mapping Caps Lock to Ctrl in hardware would be nice.
3) Programmable keyboard layouts and assignments would be great as long as I can use them on  Linux and Mac. Installing keymapping software is not always an option. Especially in a corporate environment where we don't have admin privileges.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: jamadagni on Sun, 25 October 2015, 23:07:39
@chamcham: You know you can always remap your existing keys to produce these characters using your OS's keyboard layout configuration right?
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: m0j0 on Mon, 26 October 2015, 08:14:48
@chamcham: You know you can always remap your existing keys to produce these characters using your OS's keyboard layout configuration right?

Also, it's very easy to remap keys with the existing Kinesis Advantage keyboards, as well as record macros.

I used to always swap "Ctrl" and "Caps Lock" with "normal" keyboards, but I ceased the practice once I switched to the Kinesis. Since the modifier keys are activated by the thumbs, it was less necessary.

The side benefit is that I am now used to the "traditional" layout when using a "traditional" keyboard, so I no longer curse when I sit down at someone else's computer and START TYPING LIKE THIS.   :thumb:
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: cogito_ergo_sum on Mon, 26 October 2015, 11:55:52
The new changes, from what I've read so far, seem good. I'll still wait to see if there are any quality issues with the initial run before upgrading.

One potential problem I see is accidentally switching modes with the f-keys. However, since I'll remap some of those elsewhere (1qaz, embedded layer), it may not be a problem. Does anyone know of anything that might actually be a step backward with the new design?

Whatever Kinesis does, I hope the Advantage always keeps the ability to have a custom layout on locked-down corporate computers, without having to install software on them.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: vvp on Mon, 26 October 2015, 12:10:47
I used to always swap "Ctrl" and "Caps Lock" with "normal" keyboards, but I ceased the practice once I switched to the Kinesis. Since the modifier keys are activated by the thumbs, it was less necessary.
You can swap CapsLock with Escape now :)
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Thu, 29 October 2015, 12:12:06
The new changes, from what I've read so far, seem good. I'll still wait to see if there are any quality issues with the initial run before upgrading.

One potential problem I see is accidentally switching modes with the f-keys. However, since I'll remap some of those elsewhere (1qaz, embedded layer), it may not be a problem. Does anyone know of anything that might actually be a step backward with the new design?

Whatever Kinesis does, I hope the Advantage always keeps the ability to have a custom layout on locked-down corporate computers, without having to install software on them.



I believe switching modes will always involve the Program key, so it would be very difficult to accidentally switch (nearly impossible).

On-board programming will always be a feature, so any optional software is completely optional. 
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: vivalarevolución on Thu, 29 October 2015, 20:09:36
Well, this is all interesting. I've exited the Ergonomic keyboard game (still have my mice), but good to see some new products.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: m0j0 on Fri, 30 October 2015, 07:02:14
You can swap CapsLock with Escape now :)

That's actually somewhat tempting, especially since I'm a UNIX/Linux programmer and spend a LOT of time in the vi (actually Vim) text editor. I'm not fond of the rubbery Esc and function keys on the current Advantage series, and I'm looking forward to the mechanical keys on the Advantage2. I use the Esc key a lot more frequently than I use CapsLock.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: mrgoldenzombie on Mon, 02 November 2015, 16:32:49
Blank keycaps (preferably PBT) is all I require.  Otherwise, it is pretty much perfect for my needs.  ;)
PBT! PBT! PBT! PBT!
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: SpAmRaY on Mon, 02 November 2015, 16:34:01
Blank keycaps (preferably PBT) is all I require.  Otherwise, it is pretty much perfect for my needs.  ;)
PBT! PBT! PBT! PBT!
Dude give it a break.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: mivanov on Tue, 17 November 2015, 15:41:37
If it were truly split, i'd have bought  it already.

Preferably with a detachable cable unlike the Freestyle.(even if a proprietary one is used and not trrs)

Also those rubbery function keys...

Blue switches should also be an option.

Besides that - we could use more buttons for the thumbs plus those big buttons people mod into their keyboards.

As for pointing devices - I am against it, but if I had to choose - it'd be a trackball. a laser one, also 500/1000hz, sick of those optic 125hz trackballs.

It'd also be nice if one could order it with blank keycaps.(since some us of like to experiment with Colemak/Programmer's dvorak).

Software wise:
Being able to save/share layouts will be a neat feature. If you have the spare time, maybe implement some kind of chording? So one can use it with just one hand.

But if it had to  be just one change - SPLIT FTW


Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: chamcham on Thu, 19 November 2015, 14:36:01
How about large print keys?

Like this:
(http://cdn.overclock.net/8/87/800x600px-LL-871b7da7_B008CXTX7S-418bhqbqvKL.jpeg)
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Thu, 19 November 2015, 15:51:15
I've been waiting since late 2014 for the new keyboard. At that time, a Kinesis representative said the new Advantage was scheduled for 2015 Q1. Now it's Q4. That's fine and I understand these things happen. However, had I known, I would have bought an old Advantage end of 2014. So now my question, can you give *any* rough estimate? Say "first half of 2016" or "second half of 2016" or something?


I can say confidently the new keyboard will be released before Half Life 3.  Hopefully. :/
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: mivanov on Thu, 19 November 2015, 16:05:55
I've been waiting since late 2014 for the new keyboard. At that time, a Kinesis representative said the new Advantage was scheduled for 2015 Q1. Now it's Q4. That's fine and I understand these things happen. However, had I known, I would have bought an old Advantage end of 2014. So now my question, can you give *any* rough estimate? Say "first half of 2016" or "second half of 2016" or something?


I can say confidently the new keyboard will be released before Half Life 3.  Hopefully. :/

Will it be fully split or not?
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Fri, 20 November 2015, 11:59:44
I've been waiting since late 2014 for the new keyboard. At that time, a Kinesis representative said the new Advantage was scheduled for 2015 Q1. Now it's Q4. That's fine and I understand these things happen. However, had I known, I would have bought an old Advantage end of 2014. So now my question, can you give *any* rough estimate? Say "first half of 2016" or "second half of 2016" or something?


I can say confidently the new keyboard will be released before Half Life 3.  Hopefully. :/

Will it be fully split or not?

It will not be fully split. I think I addressed that before but I know a lot of this has panned over a couple of years. The main difference is a complete redesign of the electronics from the ground up. The function rows. The overall layout is going to be very similar, however for a "Pro" model we are working on different things.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: mivanov on Fri, 20 November 2015, 16:32:04
I guess I will wait 1-2 years for the split :) In the meantime - what about the Freestyle then? I've heard about a new Freestyle that will be with Reds, is it going to be released soon and what about Browns/Blues(many of us prefer tactility over linearity)?
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: highend on Sun, 22 November 2015, 03:43:05
Quote
I can say confidently the new keyboard will be released before Half Life 3.  Hopefully. :/

I've ordered a keyboardio... Didn't want to wait another <x> years for a new Kinesis  :-X
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Mon, 23 November 2015, 17:57:33
I guess I will wait 1-2 years for the split :) In the meantime - what about the Freestyle then? I've heard about a new Freestyle that will be with Reds, is it going to be released soon and what about Browns/Blues(many of us prefer tactility over linearity)?

You heard correctly! A new Freestyle is coming out very soon. I will have more details to post in a couple of weeks.

Quote
I can say confidently the new keyboard will be released before Half Life 3.  Hopefully. :/

I've ordered a keyboardio... Didn't want to wait another <x> years for a new Kinesis  :-X

I was only teasing since this thread was created a long time ago and we had a few delays on the way, but honestly the new Advantage keyboard will come out in 2016. It won't be another 1+ years!
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: vvp on Tue, 24 November 2015, 11:14:47
You heard correctly! A new Freestyle is coming out very soon. I will have more details to post in a couple of weeks.
Will the new Freestyle have contoured keywells?
No pressure, I can wait few weeks for the answer :)
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: davkol on Tue, 24 November 2015, 14:08:41
You heard correctly! A new Freestyle is coming out very soon. I will have more details to post in a couple of weeks.
Will the new Freestyle have contoured keywells?
No pressure, I can wait few weeks for the answer :)
http://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/kinesis-planning-split-ergo-gaming-board-t10662.html
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: mivanov on Tue, 24 November 2015, 16:39:19
You heard correctly! A new Freestyle is coming out very soon. I will have more details to post in a couple of weeks.
Will the new Freestyle have contoured keywells?
No pressure, I can wait few weeks for the answer :)
http://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/kinesis-planning-split-ergo-gaming-board-t10662.html
Reds are a no-go. Will wait for a split Advantage. Even if keyboards become obsolete by then and we all become cyborgs :D
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Tue, 24 November 2015, 17:49:28
You heard correctly! A new Freestyle is coming out very soon. I will have more details to post in a couple of weeks.
Will the new Freestyle have contoured keywells?
No pressure, I can wait few weeks for the answer :)
http://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/kinesis-planning-split-ergo-gaming-board-t10662.html
Reds are a no-go. Will wait for a split Advantage. Even if keyboards become obsolete by then and we all become cyborgs :D

Whoever posted that Freestyle gaming keyboard brochure did so without our permission and was never meant to be seen by anyone outside of a select few.  I personally don't mind but it's not official by any means and could be a little misleading to viewers. There will be other features/options not listed in that draft brochure (likely the key switches as well).
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: hoggy on Wed, 25 November 2015, 01:55:27
I think it ticks a lot of boxes, mechanical, split, tenting options, easy to adapt to...  I'm sure if it was around the past few years, it would have been a credible suggestion to questions on this sub forum.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Niomosy on Wed, 25 November 2015, 19:19:27
If the Freestyle does come out with MX reds, I'm definitely interested.  I'd probably get a custom case made so I can have it as a single-case dedicated split/tent keyboard.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: BlueByLiquid on Tue, 22 December 2015, 18:06:27
Oh wow I have always hoped you would get rid of the tiny rubber keys on the advantage but really you didn't make them any bigger? They are impossible to use without looking directly at them and focusing I can't believe you didn't make them bigger.

I am glad that you are going to have an Advantage pro with a log more features (maybe with backlighting so I don't have to mode it like I did with one of my other classics :). i have been ready to buy one for ages. My PS2 classis version is so screwed up I'm on my second one. It repeats keys all the time. The usb adapter you guys gave me  that actually works seems to have issues with windows 10 (or is just going out) and repeats/misses keys all the time.

I really hope you can put at least slightly larger (at least taller, as in how far they stick out, for sure as they are a huge ergonomic issue with how short they are. I love Advantage but I really need a new keyboard that doesn't make me repeat code all day long.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: petreza on Wed, 06 January 2016, 14:26:26
Happy New Year!

(just saying)
:rolleyes:
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: goflo on Sun, 31 January 2016, 06:55:37
Should we make a monthly bump for this vaporware?
Anyone taking bets if it tops Duke Nukem?  :))
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Niomosy on Mon, 01 February 2016, 13:32:27
Should we make a monthly bump for this vaporware?
Anyone taking bets if it tops Duke Nukem?  :))

Are we talking time to release, level if happiness upon release, or both? :D
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Thu, 04 February 2016, 15:28:48
Should we make a monthly bump for this vaporware?
Anyone taking bets if it tops Duke Nukem?  :))

Haha we're actually releasing a special Duke Nukem Advantage as well as a Half Life 3 Advantage Pro!

Seriously though the Advantage2 will come out this year! I'm typing on one right now!
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Niomosy on Thu, 04 February 2016, 16:21:51
Should we make a monthly bump for this vaporware?
Anyone taking bets if it tops Duke Nukem?  :))

Haha we're actually releasing a special Duke Nukem Advantage as well as a Half Life 3 Advantage Pro!

Seriously though the Advantage2 will come out this year! I'm typing on one right now!

You tease!  >.<
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: glax on Fri, 05 February 2016, 04:57:41
...
Seriously though the Advantage2 will come out this year! I'm typing on one right now!

This year? Like in prior-to-December-31-2016-23:59-o'clock-but-not-much?
I somehow hoped for first q. of this year.
OK, I once even hoped for end of 2013 when this thread started in 2012. Wouldn't believe devellopment of a keyboard may take four years, my fault, sorry.
No offense, natas, I believe it when I see it. Last three years were a bit frustrating concerning this.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: vvp on Fri, 05 February 2016, 05:17:44
I made my own keyboard (https://deskthority.net/post282413.html#p282413) in my free time over about 20 months instead of waiting for the new Kinesis Advantage. But there is a big difference between one prototype and a ready to sell product.  I'm not surprised it takes about 4 years to get it out. That is the reason I started my project in December 2013. I was reasonably confident I'll have it done long before I could buy the new Kinesis Advantage :)

You need to realize that contoured keyboards are not sold in huge quantities and therefore its development budget is limited. And competition is limited too. So there is no big need to hurry.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Mon, 08 February 2016, 17:11:34
...
Seriously though the Advantage2 will come out this year! I'm typing on one right now!

This year? Like in prior-to-December-31-2016-23:59-o'clock-but-not-much?
I somehow hoped for first q. of this year.
OK, I once even hoped for end of 2013 when this thread started in 2012. Wouldn't believe devellopment of a keyboard may take four years, my fault, sorry.
No offense, natas, I believe it when I see it. Last three years were a bit frustrating concerning this.

None taken glax, I completely understand. Unfortunately we had several hiccups on the way that delayed our project or forced us to start over from scratch, which as you can imagine was very frustrating on our end! That is behind us now thankfully. A couple people in this thread have tried beta Adv2 keyboards so hopefully that can provide an indication we're on the right path.

Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: flog on Tue, 09 February 2016, 15:44:14
I know it is a bit late to ask for features but would it be possible to have more options on the cherry switches? I know that you already made the Advantage LF which is great for those who like linear.

I modded my advantage to get cherry mx blues. Not a difficult mod, especially since you guys where nice enough to let me buy the required spare parts. Still, if I where to buy an advantage 2 I'd like get more options on switches, frankly because it would be much cheaper than having to mod it.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Snarfangel on Tue, 09 February 2016, 22:39:42
I have to say, I am curious what the changes will be.  Then again, I have a white Kinesis split keyboard (s/n 12067), and a silver Kinesis Advantage (s/n 81649PU). Well, that and three Maltrons. :)

But if the new one is awesomeness incarnate, out will come my credit card again.  :))
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: glitchathon on Sun, 14 February 2016, 01:28:24
The improved function keys will be nice, but I am curious if there are any other major physical changes? Will the long keys have stabilizers? I actually use the keyboard nearly as it came. I only switched the tab and capslock. So the programming improvements will not be as big a deal for me.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: vivalarevolución on Sun, 14 February 2016, 18:22:11

You need to realize that contoured keyboards are not sold in huge quantities and therefore its development budget is limited. And competition is limited too. So there is no big need to hurry.

Yea, there is basically one competitor to this, the Maltron.  And if you consider the price differences, there are no competitors, because the Maltron costs twice as much.

We have Ergodox and the Keyboardio, but those still are not exactly contoured keyboards, more of the split variety with thumbs keys.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: incrediblemath on Sun, 14 February 2016, 19:46:12
The refurb Advantage I've been using for the last 10 years (!) is starting to skip keypresses I think, so hopefully a successor isn't too far off!

Will the new Advantage have the same RJ-11 jack for the footswitch? I'd like to keep using my homemade switch if at all possible.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: figit090 on Tue, 16 February 2016, 01:00:12
I made my own keyboard (https://deskthority.net/post282413.html#p282413) in my free time over about 20 months instead of waiting for the new Kinesis Advantage. But there is a big difference between one prototype and a ready to sell product.  I'm not surprised it takes about 4 years to get it out. That is the reason I started my project in December 2013. I was reasonably confident I'll have it done long before I could buy the new Kinesis Advantage :)

You need to realize that contoured keyboards are not sold in huge quantities and therefore its development budget is limited. And competition is limited too. So there is no big need to hurry.
Awesome work, little toyish with the colors but that's all preference, the design is cool. 

I have to disagree with no rush when competition isn't around.  The fact there is no competition is scary because that means opportunity.  Imagine if Microsoft took a leap into the true ergo market with a contoured board?  They could easily do it and they'd have their split 'ergo' board fans already interested.

I think small companies need to sweat to stay on top and be REALLY proactive.  Imagine if Kinesis had a bigger presence online and such?  Pander to gamers a bit or at least get up every corporate nose possible to sell contoured boards? 

Maybe they do, and I actually think they do, but I just hope things are going well.  Instagram is a good avenue they could pursue. Their products and customer service are top notch, I just wish "WHAT IS THAT KEYBOARD" would go away to make room for "I WANT A KINESIS!"

Someday!
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: vvp on Tue, 16 February 2016, 05:26:38
Awesome work, little toyish with the colors but that's all preference, the design is cool.
Thanks. As for as the colors, well, I used whatever was in the printer at the time I printed the part. So it is a consequence of me being lazy to change the filament :)

I just wish "WHAT IS THAT KEYBOARD" would go away to make room for "I WANT A KINESIS!"
I think this is the biggest problem. It looks too differently, some keys are at different positions (number keys shifted to the right, arrows keys completely different). The new layout is better but people do not know it. And people are afraid they would forget how to type on a standard keyboard when Kinesis Advantage is used most of the time. Every Kinesis user knows it is not an issue. Which is not helping much since these are the people who already converted to the right keyboard. And frankly, most people type very little and the keyboard just does not bother them.

And to be honest, Kinesis Advantage pinkie keys are not that good. Mine keyboard has them much better  ;D

Look at a simple thing like keyboard layout. We have many layouts better than QWERTY and there is no cost to change to them. And almost nobody does it anyway.

Therefore I think there is no need to be afraid somebody would try to enter contoured keyboard market in a big way. Instead they put one half of keys a bit more far away from the other half. Screw up arrow cluster even a more than it already is on a standard keyboard and call it Microsoft Ergonomic Keyboard. But the ergonomics is only in the name and not in the shape or layout.

Vivalarevolución is right. There is no competition. At least now. And I doubt it ever changes. Which is a pity.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: figit090 on Tue, 16 February 2016, 19:02:09
Awesome work, little toyish with the colors but that's all preference, the design is cool.
Thanks. As for as the colors, well, I used whatever was in the printer at the time I printed the part. So it is a consequence of me being lazy to change the filament :)

I just wish "WHAT IS THAT KEYBOARD" would go away to make room for "I WANT A KINESIS!"
I think this is the biggest problem. It looks too differently, some keys are at different positions (number keys shifted to the right, arrows keys completely different). The new layout is better but people do not know it. And people are afraid they would forget how to type on a standard keyboard when Kinesis Advantage is used most of the time. Every Kinesis user knows it is not an issue. Which is not helping much since these are the people who already converted to the right keyboard. And frankly, most people type very little and the keyboard just does not bother them.

And to be honest, Kinesis Advantage pinkie keys are not that good. Mine keyboard has them much better  ;D

Look at a simple thing like keyboard layout. We have many layouts better than QWERTY and there is no cost to change to them. And almost nobody does it anyway.

Therefore I think there is no need to be afraid somebody would try to enter contoured keyboard market in a big way. Instead they put one half of keys a bit more far away from the other half. Screw up arrow cluster even a more than it already is on a standard keyboard and call it Microsoft Ergonomic Keyboard. But the ergonomics is only in the name and not in the shape or layout.

Vivalarevolución is right. There is no competition. At least now. And I doubt it ever changes. Which is a pity.
Haha, that's a good excuse, I don't really mind the colors I just don't have anything that would match! 

You're right, going more public might not help as much as i thought because people type less. 

I do think there could be some benefits by getting the gaming crowd on board though.  Difficult to say if they'd like straight column keys though.

Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: incrediblemath on Tue, 16 February 2016, 23:20:51
I do think there could be some benefits by getting the gaming crowd on board though.  Difficult to say if they'd like straight column keys though.

My guess is the major issue with the gaming industry is sponsorship. The top-level/high-visibility players are sponsored, and using equipment from a competitor is likely a no-go. At least that's what I've seen with other sports. With so many big-name companies putting up big money, it'd be hard for an independent vendor to compete.

For the handful of FPS games I pay, I don't mind using the Advantage at all. I just map my movement to SDFC instead of WASD or ESDF... more comfortable for me that way.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: figit090 on Tue, 16 February 2016, 23:50:20
I do think there could be some benefits by getting the gaming crowd on board though.  Difficult to say if they'd like straight column keys though.

My guess is the major issue with the gaming industry is sponsorship. The top-level/high-visibility players are sponsored, and using equipment from a competitor is likely a no-go. At least that's what I've seen with other sports. With so many big-name companies putting up big money, it'd be hard for an independent vendor to compete.

For the handful of FPS games I pay, I don't mind using the Advantage at all. I just map my movement to SDFC instead of WASD or ESDF... more comfortable for me that way.
Oh I mean casual gamers not crazy sponsorships.  Those people would probably start nitpicking n-key rollover and stuff like that but for long time players, I bet ergonomics could be used as a "winners ADVANTAGE."  (Couldn't help it sorry lol.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: jacobolus on Wed, 17 February 2016, 01:03:40
I don’t think a Kinesis Advantage makes sense for game players. It’s too big and bulky.

Half a freestyle with MX (or similar) switches might be okay, but I doubt there’s much advantage compared to a standard 60% or TKL keyboard, since one hand is going to stay on the mouse, and therefore it’s easy to reorient the keyboard whatever way is most comfortable even if it’s one piece. In some cases might be a regression, as some game players probably reach their left hand across to use 7 Y H N and maybe U J.

Half a more ergonomic column-staggered keyboard, but maybe not as bulky or sculptured as the Advantage is, could be effective for them, but I don’t see Kinesis making such a thing.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: figit090 on Wed, 17 February 2016, 01:14:30
I don’t think a Kinesis Advantage makes sense for game players. It’s too big and bulky.

Half a freestyle with MX (or similar) switches might be okay, but I doubt there’s much advantage compared to a standard 60% or TKL keyboard, since one hand is going to stay on the mouse, and therefore it’s easy to reorient the keyboard whatever way is most comfortable even if it’s one piece. In some cases might be a regression, as some game players probably reach their left hand across to use 7 Y H N and maybe U J.

Half a more ergonomic column-staggered keyboard, but maybe not as bulky or sculptured as the Advantage is, could be effective for them, but I don’t see Kinesis making such a thing.
Very good points!  I agree.  Thanks for posting that I don't game much
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: jacobolus on Wed, 17 February 2016, 01:30:38
I don’t play games much at all, especially not of the sort where keyboarding performance matters. I just have thought a lot about keyboard ergonomics, and watched other people playing games at a high level.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: vvp on Wed, 17 February 2016, 04:51:31
I play FPS games occasionally. I liked using Kinesis Advantage for playing. But I agree it is not much better than a standard keyboard. I would say the biggest advantage of Kinesis is the thumb cluster. More keys are easily available. Well the same is true for keywell too. But the point is that so many keys are not typically needed for gaming and the few keys needed can be placed around the home position. So Kinesis Advantage does not improve it much. I doubt I would buy it just for gaming. It is about $300 which sounds much for a game pad like thing. But I do not play much.

In my opinion, Kinesis Advantage is very good for typing. They should just improve the pinkie keys. And thumb cluster: put it nearer to the keywell (especially the Alt key), and of course make it 8 key cluster instead of 6. Uff, and split the keyboard!

When you already have Kinesis Advantage for typing then it is very nice for gaming too. But buying it for gaming only ... I do not know. It would require some very skill full marketing. And probably backlight LEDs, skull stickers and whatever the few wealthy young gamers may be attracted by  ;D
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Thu, 18 February 2016, 13:03:52
I made my own keyboard (https://deskthority.net/post282413.html#p282413) in my free time over about 20 months instead of waiting for the new Kinesis Advantage. But there is a big difference between one prototype and a ready to sell product.  I'm not surprised it takes about 4 years to get it out. That is the reason I started my project in December 2013. I was reasonably confident I'll have it done long before I could buy the new Kinesis Advantage :)

You need to realize that contoured keyboards are not sold in huge quantities and therefore its development budget is limited. And competition is limited too. So there is no big need to hurry.
Awesome work, little toyish with the colors but that's all preference, the design is cool. 

I have to disagree with no rush when competition isn't around.  The fact there is no competition is scary because that means opportunity.  Imagine if Microsoft took a leap into the true ergo market with a contoured board?  They could easily do it and they'd have their split 'ergo' board fans already interested.

I think small companies need to sweat to stay on top and be REALLY proactive.  Imagine if Kinesis had a bigger presence online and such?  Pander to gamers a bit or at least get up every corporate nose possible to sell contoured boards? 

Maybe they do, and I actually think they do, but I just hope things are going well.  Instagram is a good avenue they could pursue. Their products and customer service are top notch, I just wish "WHAT IS THAT KEYBOARD" would go away to make room for "I WANT A KINESIS!"

Someday!


We've also had a number of other projects being worked on at the same time, and we are a very small company (~12 employees) so resources/time is a factor (Bluetooth Freestyle2, mechanical Freestyle/gaming keyboard, our foot switches went through a major overhaul (which are a big seller for us), etc.). With that said, I agree with your points. We are going to launch a couple new products this year and we'll see how people respond to the mechanical Freestyle (hopefully really well since we sell much more Freestyle keyboards than our Contoured keyboards).
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Input Nirvana on Mon, 22 February 2016, 00:30:25
I'm anticipating cutting the new and improved Advantage into 2 halves...I hope it will be possible with the changes that are being made.


I may need Kinesis to assist in the project :)
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: jorpz on Tue, 23 February 2016, 13:37:00
Any update/news on a release date? I actually just purchased a Kinesis Advantage only to find out that it's not compatible with my work laptop  :-[

I love the design and I'm eager to put this to use, but I'm going to return it and wait for the Advantage 2 so I can use it at work. Having some pretty critical wrist issues and if this thing doesn't drop (relatively) soon I'll have to consider other options.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Input Nirvana on Tue, 23 February 2016, 14:00:52
As a follow up:

I'm looking forward to the Advantage 2, and based on what I've heard I'm guessing I'll be getting one or more.

I'm also going to split it...but this time I'll do it differently. I may enlist the help of Kinesis, Input Club, other GH members and whomever else needed to make the split clean, professional, not an endless project, and possibly upgrade from even what improvements Kinesis is making. The split will be caseless, which is the final mod I was going to do on mine. I'm not investing any more time/effort into my mod since the new model is being released.

The big items will be splitting into 2 halves, integrated pointing device (I hope to find better than the TrackPoint I now use, PBT keycaps (I hope someone has been working on this), and caseless.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Wed, 24 February 2016, 15:48:28
Any update/news on a release date? I actually just purchased a Kinesis Advantage only to find out that it's not compatible with my work laptop  :-[

I love the design and I'm eager to put this to use, but I'm going to return it and wait for the Advantage 2 so I can use it at work. Having some pretty critical wrist issues and if this thing doesn't drop (relatively) soon I'll have to consider other options.

Is the win7 USB 3.0 driver issue? If so, you know we can send you a work-around for that right? Just email tech@kinesis.com and we'll send you out a kit (assuming the BIOS options aren't available on your work computer). 

No date on the new Adv2.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Wed, 24 February 2016, 15:51:29
As a follow up:

I'm looking forward to the Advantage 2, and based on what I've heard I'm guessing I'll be getting one or more.

I'm also going to split it...but this time I'll do it differently. I may enlist the help of Kinesis, Input Club, other GH members and whomever else needed to make the split clean, professional, not an endless project, and possibly upgrade from even what improvements Kinesis is making. The split will be caseless, which is the final mod I was going to do on mine. I'm not investing any more time/effort into my mod since the new model is being released.

The big items will be splitting into 2 halves, integrated pointing device (I hope to find better than the TrackPoint I now use, PBT keycaps (I hope someone has been working on this), and caseless.


Cool, can't wait to see the end result. After we get out the new model/electronics, we can focus more on potential options of the Advantage, perhaps even a split version. 
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: jorpz on Wed, 24 February 2016, 15:59:12
Any update/news on a release date? I actually just purchased a Kinesis Advantage only to find out that it's not compatible with my work laptop  :-[

I love the design and I'm eager to put this to use, but I'm going to return it and wait for the Advantage 2 so I can use it at work. Having some pretty critical wrist issues and if this thing doesn't drop (relatively) soon I'll have to consider other options.

Is the win7 USB 3.0 driver issue? If so, you know we can send you a work-around for that right? Just email tech@kinesis.com and we'll send you out a kit (assuming the BIOS options aren't available on your work computer). 

No date on the new Adv2.

Thanks for the prompt response! And yes, it is the Win 7 USB 3.0 issue. The work laptop I use doesn't have a PS/2 port if that's the solution  :( Also a side note - we use a docking station with multiple USB 3.0 connections. I spoke with IT and they were not in favor of messing with the BIOS.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Input Nirvana on Wed, 24 February 2016, 18:16:06
As a follow up:

I'm looking forward to the Advantage 2, and based on what I've heard I'm guessing I'll be getting one or more.

I'm also going to split it...but this time I'll do it differently. I may enlist the help of Kinesis, Input Club, other GH members and whomever else needed to make the split clean, professional, not an endless project, and possibly upgrade from even what improvements Kinesis is making. The split will be caseless, which is the final mod I was going to do on mine. I'm not investing any more time/effort into my mod since the new model is being released.

The big items will be splitting into 2 halves, integrated pointing device (I hope to find better than the TrackPoint I now use, PBT keycaps (I hope someone has been working on this), and caseless.


Cool, can't wait to see the end result. After we get out the new model/electronics, we can focus more on potential options of the Advantage, perhaps even a split version. 

My motivation to go 'over the top' and invest more into splitting the Advantage 2 and involve others is fueled by what I consider the tremendous success I have had with the original split Advantage, the integrated TrackPoint, and the real keys in place of the 'rubber-nubby F keys. Also, since I did split the Advantage in 2009-10, there has been a progressive and impressive degree of enthusiast technical development and innovation. In 2009 I didn't have many options for various mods, now in 2016 the question is "Who do I choose to involve and for which mods?".

Exciting times in the keyboard enthusiast world!
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Thu, 25 February 2016, 11:57:00
Any update/news on a release date? I actually just purchased a Kinesis Advantage only to find out that it's not compatible with my work laptop  :-[

I love the design and I'm eager to put this to use, but I'm going to return it and wait for the Advantage 2 so I can use it at work. Having some pretty critical wrist issues and if this thing doesn't drop (relatively) soon I'll have to consider other options.

Is the win7 USB 3.0 driver issue? If so, you know we can send you a work-around for that right? Just email tech@kinesis.com and we'll send you out a kit (assuming the BIOS options aren't available on your work computer). 

No date on the new Adv2.

Thanks for the prompt response! And yes, it is the Win 7 USB 3.0 issue. The work laptop I use doesn't have a PS/2 port if that's the solution  :( Also a side note - we use a docking station with multiple USB 3.0 connections. I spoke with IT and they were not in favor of messing with the BIOS.

That's fine, you won't need a PS/2 port. The "cable conversion kit" includes a main PS/2 cable and a PS/2 to USB adaptor, so the end result you'll still be connecting to a USB port on your laptop. By installing the PS/2 cable directly to the main circuit board (which is native PS/2 anyway), you will be bypassing our USB daughterboard/USB hub, which is really out-dated and is what the USB 3.0 driver on win7 has a compatibility issue with. By taking this component out of the equation, your keyboard will work perfectly fine with the USB adaptor we provide (the 2-port USB hub in the back of the keyboard will be disabled though) and you can connect either to your docking station or directly to the laptop. Just PM me your name/address and I'll put in today's mail for you, or send an email to tech@kinesis.com
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Thu, 25 February 2016, 12:01:07
As a follow up:

I'm looking forward to the Advantage 2, and based on what I've heard I'm guessing I'll be getting one or more.

I'm also going to split it...but this time I'll do it differently. I may enlist the help of Kinesis, Input Club, other GH members and whomever else needed to make the split clean, professional, not an endless project, and possibly upgrade from even what improvements Kinesis is making. The split will be caseless, which is the final mod I was going to do on mine. I'm not investing any more time/effort into my mod since the new model is being released.

The big items will be splitting into 2 halves, integrated pointing device (I hope to find better than the TrackPoint I now use, PBT keycaps (I hope someone has been working on this), and caseless.


Cool, can't wait to see the end result. After we get out the new model/electronics, we can focus more on potential options of the Advantage, perhaps even a split version. 

My motivation to go 'over the top' and invest more into splitting the Advantage 2 and involve others is fueled by what I consider the tremendous success I have had with the original split Advantage, the integrated TrackPoint, and the real keys in place of the 'rubber-nubby F keys. Also, since I did split the Advantage in 2009-10, there has been a progressive and impressive degree of enthusiast technical development and innovation. In 2009 I didn't have many options for various mods, now in 2016 the question is "Who do I choose to involve and for which mods?".

Exciting times in the keyboard enthusiast world!


It really is amazing how much the keyboard modding community has grown over the past 3-5 years isn't it?!
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: jorpz on Thu, 25 February 2016, 17:44:23
Any update/news on a release date? I actually just purchased a Kinesis Advantage only to find out that it's not compatible with my work laptop  :-[

I love the design and I'm eager to put this to use, but I'm going to return it and wait for the Advantage 2 so I can use it at work. Having some pretty critical wrist issues and if this thing doesn't drop (relatively) soon I'll have to consider other options.

Is the win7 USB 3.0 driver issue? If so, you know we can send you a work-around for that right? Just email tech@kinesis.com and we'll send you out a kit (assuming the BIOS options aren't available on your work computer). 

No date on the new Adv2.

Thanks for the prompt response! And yes, it is the Win 7 USB 3.0 issue. The work laptop I use doesn't have a PS/2 port if that's the solution  :( Also a side note - we use a docking station with multiple USB 3.0 connections. I spoke with IT and they were not in favor of messing with the BIOS.

That's fine, you won't need a PS/2 port. The "cable conversion kit" includes a main PS/2 cable and a PS/2 to USB adaptor, so the end result you'll still be connecting to a USB port on your laptop. By installing the PS/2 cable directly to the main circuit board (which is native PS/2 anyway), you will be bypassing our USB daughterboard/USB hub, which is really out-dated and is what the USB 3.0 driver on win7 has a compatibility issue with. By taking this component out of the equation, your keyboard will work perfectly fine with the USB adaptor we provide (the 2-port USB hub in the back of the keyboard will be disabled though) and you can connect either to your docking station or directly to the laptop. Just PM me your name/address and I'll put in today's mail for you, or send an email to tech@kinesis.com

That's awesome news! Thanks so much for the clarification.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: jorpz on Wed, 09 March 2016, 13:08:47
Hey all, I just got my Advantage up and running at work and it's great. However, being an accountant,  I use excel pretty heavily almost every day. I'm wondering how some of you have adapted to using the control keys in excel (or whatever you're working in). I'm having a very hard time adapting to the position of the control key and my productivity in excel is plummeting. Also the position of the arrow keys is really throwing me off. Any suggestions? Maybe I need to remap the keys to something else? I'm also considering trying out the Freestyle 2 to see if that's a bit more accommodating. 

Thanks for any suggestions.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Lanx on Fri, 11 March 2016, 10:23:38
In short, you'll get used to it, especially the stupid arrow keys, you really should think about a numpad since you're an accountant tho. And if you have any issues, just remap, always common to remap ctrl to caps lock.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: dusanx on Mon, 14 March 2016, 04:06:35
Also the position of the arrow keys is really throwing me off. Any suggestions?

Stock advantage, looking at bottom two rows (left and right) look like this:
` \ Left Right     Up Down [ ]

Use key puller to replace keys and redefine them to:
` \ [ ]       Left Down Up Right

This way you have all the arrow keys on one hand. Does all the difference.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: hoggy on Mon, 14 March 2016, 08:55:09
Hey all, I just got my Advantage up and running at work and it's great. However, being an accountant,  I use excel pretty heavily almost every day. I'm wondering how some of you have adapted to using the control keys in excel (or whatever you're working in). I'm having a very hard time adapting to the position of the control key and my productivity in excel is plummeting. Also the position of the arrow keys is really throwing me off. Any suggestions? Maybe I need to remap the keys to something else? I'm also considering trying out the Freestyle 2 to see if that's a bit more accommodating. 

Thanks for any suggestions.

It took me a while to get used to the position of the cursor keys, but now I'm used to them, I love where they are.  They are very much worth the effort.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: sordna on Tue, 15 March 2016, 14:22:12
I swap Up/Down only, to match the VI editor's j/k (index finger for down, middle for up).
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Fri, 18 March 2016, 15:45:27
Any current Advantage users who have Windows 8 or Windows 10 interested in testing out the Beta Adv2 keyboard for the next few weeks or so (in the US)? If so please email me over at tech@kinesis.com and I'll let you know the specifics. Participants are expected to receive a free Adv2 keyboard when it's available this year.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: sordna on Sat, 19 March 2016, 11:56:57
Any current Advantage users who have Windows 8 or Windows 10 interested in testing out the Beta Adv2 keyboard for the next few weeks or so (in the US)? If so please email me over at tech@kinesis.com and I'll let you know the specifics. Participants are expected to receive a free Adv2 keyboard when it's available this year.

I am interested but use Linux and OSX. And an Avocent USB KVM. Can I participate?
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Mon, 21 March 2016, 14:52:04
Any current Advantage users who have Windows 8 or Windows 10 interested in testing out the Beta Adv2 keyboard for the next few weeks or so (in the US)? If so please email me over at tech@kinesis.com and I'll let you know the specifics. Participants are expected to receive a free Adv2 keyboard when it's available this year.

I am interested but use Linux and OSX. And an Avocent USB KVM. Can I participate?

We can probably get you in on the next round of beta testers (assuming there is a next round) since right now we're trying to focus on Windows (the last wave of beta testers were all Linux/Mac users). Send me a a new email so I can get you on the new list. 
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: DvorakDachshund on Mon, 21 March 2016, 19:02:14
Any current Advantage users who have Windows 8 or Windows 10 interested in testing out the Beta Adv2 keyboard for the next few weeks or so (in the US)? If so please email me over at tech@kinesis.com and I'll let you know the specifics. Participants are expected to receive a free Adv2 keyboard when it's available this year.

I'm on Windows Server 2012 R2 if you happen to need a tester for that (basically Windows 2008) :D
Current keyboard Kinesis Advantage Pro Metallic.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: hoggy on Tue, 22 March 2016, 02:06:37
I'd love to help, but I'm not in the US (sad face). 

Hope the beta testing goes well.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: coniurare on Sun, 27 March 2016, 11:25:13
I'd love to help, but I'm not in the US (sad face). 

Hope the beta testing goes well.

Yeah, would have been cool if people outside the US could have participated too. But the shipping is probably too expensive. Although I mainly use Windows 7 and Linux, I also have Windows 10 for testing purposes around. But it's awesome that after 4 years (ok, 3 years and some months) of following this thread the release of the Advantage 2 is near. Love my beat up Advantage that I bought from a co worker a few years back.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: ergomech on Fri, 01 April 2016, 11:28:42
Without a doubt: option of between 20g to 30g activation force keys. The datahand used 18g and it is the most ergo keyboard ever. Making fingers strain more with extra force required is crazy.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: sordna on Tue, 05 April 2016, 23:57:55
Without a doubt: option of between 20g to 30g activation force keys. The datahand used 18g and it is the most ergo keyboard ever. Making fingers strain more with extra force required is crazy.

Without a doubt: option of between 20g to 30g activation force keys. The datahand used 18g and it is the most ergo keyboard ever. Making fingers strain more with extra force required is crazy.

Gateron clears might be a good choice for light activation, they are lighter than cherry reds.
Actually I've been thinking it would be nice to use a mix, cherry reds under the stronger fingers, and gateron clears in the outer columns for the pinkies.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Niomosy on Wed, 06 April 2016, 01:15:37
I'd likely want to try out anything lighter than an MX red switch before buying. 
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: rsantos97 on Wed, 06 April 2016, 09:56:52
I agree 100% with the idea of lighter switches than mx reds.  And with less key travel.  I think the Matias Linear Quiet switches would be perfect.  Or the Gateron Clears with o-rings.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: yasuo on Wed, 20 April 2016, 00:20:32
i'd like to know how distanace between A-Thumb "delete"?
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Fri, 22 April 2016, 12:05:49
Quick poll if you guys want different color home row options. I thought it would be a cool idea to have kits available for the Adv2 (or any version of the Contoured keyboard) where if you didn't like the base home row color (currently dark blue) you could get whatever color you preferred (red, green, dark gray, etc). yay or nay?

Also leave any feedback on twitter:

https://twitter.com/kinesisergo/status/723552554282455040
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: rsantos97 on Fri, 22 April 2016, 14:33:12
Quick poll if you guys want different color home row options. I thought it would be a cool idea to have kits available for the Adv2 (or any version of the Contoured keyboard) where if you didn't like the base home row color (currently dark blue) you could get whatever color you preferred (red, green, dark gray, etc). yay or nay?

Also leave any feedback on twitter:

https://twitter.com/kinesisergo/status/723552554282455040

I really like the blue that is already in use.  I think it is the perfect shade of blue, and it looks good with both white or black surrounding keys.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: islisis on Sat, 23 April 2016, 04:40:56
good idea

dark red

and, blank option if possible!
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: glax on Tue, 03 May 2016, 04:02:09
Quick poll if you guys want different color home row options. I thought it would be a cool idea to have kits available for the Adv2 (or any version of the Contoured keyboard) where if you didn't like the base home row color (currently dark blue) you could get whatever color you preferred (red, green, dark gray, etc). yay or nay?



Yes: black.
The different shape of the homerow keys but having the same color than the other keys. Preferably optional blank.

A completely black and blank advantage might be a cool thing.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: tassadarforaiur on Tue, 03 May 2016, 04:57:10
are you still taking beta signups?
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: csmertx on Tue, 03 May 2016, 05:28:53
We need more ergonomic keyboards with dye sub PBT keycaps and Cherry Mx / Gateron switches. I imagine cleaning that keyboard could be a simple joy if it had dye sub PBT keycaps.

Besides, most people that shop for that kind of keyboard are already aware of the resistance PBT provides against oil and heat. Just my two cents.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Niomosy on Tue, 03 May 2016, 13:43:55
We just plain need more mechanical ergonomic keyboards though MX stem compatibility is going to be an important factor.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: localredhead on Sun, 05 June 2016, 14:25:06
I'm not so keen on lighter switches as I enjoy zealios 65g..

What I think I'd appreciate the most is a switch with a higher activation point like the zealios or matias quiet clicks.

Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: zombiegristle on Sun, 05 June 2016, 14:26:44
Any current Advantage users who have Windows 8 or Windows 10 interested in testing out the Beta Adv2 keyboard for the next few weeks or so (in the US)? If so please email me over at tech@kinesis.com and I'll let you know the specifics. Participants are expected to receive a free Adv2 keyboard when it's available this year.

Current Advantage user on Win10, and absolutely interested. I'm emailing you right now.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Thu, 09 June 2016, 18:42:31
Latest round of beta testing has been great. So far only really minor bugs discovered which are easily fixed so this will likely be the final round of beta testing and we can wrap this all up ::::crosses fingers:::::

I'm not so keen on lighter switches as I enjoy zealios 65g..

What I think I'd appreciate the most is a switch with a higher activation point like the zealios or matias quiet clicks.



While we only offer Cherry Browns & Cherry Reds, we're always happy to provide the bare parts necessary to convert a current Advantage keyboard to whatever key switch you prefer and it's fairly inexpensive. You would of course need to source your own key switches & diodes (assuming they aren't pre-installed in the switch).

Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: sordna on Thu, 09 June 2016, 23:18:31
we're always happy to provide the bare parts necessary to convert a current Advantage keyboard to whatever key switch you prefer and it's fairly inexpensive. You would of course need to source your own key switches & diodes (assuming they aren't pre-installed in the switch).

Could we source and send you switches when we order a new keyboard, and you use them in the assembly?

I've been thinking to mix gateron clears in the outer columns (for the weak pinkies) and cherry reds for the rest! Maybe cherry blacks for the long thumb keys.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: localredhead on Fri, 10 June 2016, 13:52:46
Latest round of beta testing has been great. So far only really minor bugs discovered which are easily fixed so this will likely be the final round of beta testing and we can wrap this all up ::::crosses fingers:::::

I'm not so keen on lighter switches as I enjoy zealios 65g..

What I think I'd appreciate the most is a switch with a higher activation point like the zealios or matias quiet clicks.


While we only offer Cherry Browns & Cherry Reds, we're always happy to provide the bare parts necessary to convert a current Advantage keyboard to whatever key switch you prefer and it's fairly inexpensive. You would of course need to source your own key switches & diodes (assuming they aren't pre-installed in the switch).

You guys are awesome!

I can't wait to order the new model so I can modify my current advantage with purple zealios switches.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sun, 12 June 2016, 12:49:08
I really like the direction this is taking    :thumb:
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: figit090 on Mon, 13 June 2016, 00:25:24
I made my own keyboard (https://deskthority.net/post282413.html#p282413) in my free time over about 20 months instead of waiting for the new Kinesis Advantage. But there is a big difference between one prototype and a ready to sell product.  I'm not surprised it takes about 4 years to get it out. That is the reason I started my project in December 2013. I was reasonably confident I'll have it done long before I could buy the new Kinesis Advantage :)

You need to realize that contoured keyboards are not sold in huge quantities and therefore its development budget is limited. And competition is limited too. So there is no big need to hurry.
Awesome work, little toyish with the colors but that's all preference, the design is cool. 

I have to disagree with no rush when competition isn't around.  The fact there is no competition is scary because that means opportunity.  Imagine if Microsoft took a leap into the true ergo market with a contoured board?  They could easily do it and they'd have their split 'ergo' board fans already interested.

I think small companies need to sweat to stay on top and be REALLY proactive.  Imagine if Kinesis had a bigger presence online and such?  Pander to gamers a bit or at least get up every corporate nose possible to sell contoured boards? 

Maybe they do, and I actually think they do, but I just hope things are going well.  Instagram is a good avenue they could pursue. Their products and customer service are top notch, I just wish "WHAT IS THAT KEYBOARD" would go away to make room for "I WANT A KINESIS!"

Someday!


We've also had a number of other projects being worked on at the same time, and we are a very small company (~12 employees) so resources/time is a factor (Bluetooth Freestyle2, mechanical Freestyle/gaming keyboard, our foot switches went through a major overhaul (which are a big seller for us), etc.). With that said, I agree with your points. We are going to launch a couple new products this year and we'll see how people respond to the mechanical Freestyle (hopefully really well since we sell much more Freestyle keyboards than our Contoured keyboards).
Oh awesome on the mechanical freestyle, I think cost and staggered layout will help that sell like crazy!  I wish you guys the best, and sorry for late reply I've been busy.

Sent from my XT1031 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: figit090 on Mon, 13 June 2016, 01:48:39
Any current Advantage users who have Windows 8 or Windows 10 interested in testing out the Beta Adv2 keyboard for the next few weeks or so (in the US)? If so please email me over at tech@kinesis.com and I'll let you know the specifics. Participants are expected to receive a free Adv2 keyboard when it's available this year.

OH HOW did I MISS THIS!?  lol.   I'd emailed back and forth about the beta program but I guess I wasn't needed.  If you guys need any further Win7 testing OR product photos (seriously I'm a photographer) let me know.  Not sure I can upgrade to Windows 10 for fear my programs wouldn't work right, but I'd be darn tempted to get a new keyboard, haha.   :thumb:

I can't say I have been ignored though, I won a Freestyle2 Blue through your "show us your desktops" thing a while back.   :) 
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: localredhead on Tue, 14 June 2016, 15:20:03
Any current Advantage users who have Windows 8 or Windows 10 interested in testing out the Beta Adv2 keyboard for the next few weeks or so (in the US)? If so please email me over at tech@kinesis.com and I'll let you know the specifics. Participants are expected to receive a free Adv2 keyboard when it's available this year.

OH HOW did I MISS THIS!?  lol.   I'd emailed back and forth about the beta program but I guess I wasn't needed.  If you guys need any further Win7 testing OR product photos (seriously I'm a photographer) let me know.  Not sure I can upgrade to Windows 10 for fear my programs wouldn't work right, but I'd be darn tempted to get a new keyboard, haha.   :thumb:

I can't say I have been ignored though, I won a Freestyle2 Blue through your "show us your desktops" thing a while back.   :)

I dare say an mechanical freestyle will become the gold standard.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: figit090 on Tue, 14 June 2016, 15:23:06
Agreed, the main thing keeping gamers away from Kinesis would be rubber dome, or non-staggered keys.  I bet if the layout is correct, INCLUDES number keys, and has some extra function keys, it will slay anything else.  RGB LED cherry switches will make higher end models over the top!  If Kinesis can pull off all that for starters I think they'd do well.

Sent from my XT1031 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: xyverz on Wed, 27 July 2016, 15:12:55
Latest round of beta testing has been great. So far only really minor bugs discovered which are easily fixed so this will likely be the final round of beta testing and we can wrap this all up ::::crosses fingers:::::

Oh, I'm happy to hear this. I'm really looking forward to the release of the Advantage 2.

While we only offer Cherry Browns & Cherry Reds, we're always happy to provide the bare parts necessary to convert a current Advantage keyboard to whatever key switch you prefer and it's fairly inexpensive. You would of course need to source your own key switches & diodes (assuming they aren't pre-installed in the switch).

This would make me very happy. I tend to bottom out on my switches, so I'd really want to put some of the heaviest switches I can find on my next Kinesis. If I could get a kit and put my own switches and diodes in it, I'd be in hog heaven.

I'm sure it's been mentioned already, but I'd love to have a board with a flashable firmware chip in it that would take TMK or QMK firmware so I could program in my own layouts and make changes where I see fit. In the mean time, I'll just be happy with knowing that I can swap some keys around like I've been doing for the last 16 years.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Fri, 29 July 2016, 13:01:38
Latest round of beta testing has been great. So far only really minor bugs discovered which are easily fixed so this will likely be the final round of beta testing and we can wrap this all up ::::crosses fingers:::::

Oh, I'm happy to hear this. I'm really looking forward to the release of the Advantage 2.

While we only offer Cherry Browns & Cherry Reds, we're always happy to provide the bare parts necessary to convert a current Advantage keyboard to whatever key switch you prefer and it's fairly inexpensive. You would of course need to source your own key switches & diodes (assuming they aren't pre-installed in the switch).

This would make me very happy. I tend to bottom out on my switches, so I'd really want to put some of the heaviest switches I can find on my next Kinesis. If I could get a kit and put my own switches and diodes in it, I'd be in hog heaven.

I'm sure it's been mentioned already, but I'd love to have a board with a flashable firmware chip in it that would take TMK or QMK firmware so I could program in my own layouts and make changes where I see fit. In the mean time, I'll just be happy with knowing that I can swap some keys around like I've been doing for the last 16 years.

Here are a few links of users who converted their Advantage keyboards (the first link is with Cherry Green's which may insterest you since you like the heavier switches):

http://imgur.com/a/lEqK7
http://www.gilesorr.com/misc/keyboards/kinesisblue.html
http://tech.skryl.org/post/60613686455/the-kinesis-conversion

Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: localredhead on Tue, 02 August 2016, 13:20:32
I want a Advantage V2 Pro model (with the customary silver finish) but I would like to get home-row keys that are grey as well to really bring a monotone vibe to the color scheme :)

BTW:  I love how all the parts on the advantage are sourceable and can be replaced/repaired easily.  This is a huge selling point for myself, as I like to tinker and now I have a few that I'd like to start modding :)

I cannot wait for the V2 Pro model - when can I pre-order?
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: highend on Wed, 03 August 2016, 07:37:58
natas206 posted that you can preorder it from now on and that it would be generally available in about two weeks but he removed that information on his last edit (29 July 2016)...
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Wed, 03 August 2016, 12:08:35
I want a Advantage V2 Pro model (with the customary silver finish) but I would like to get home-row keys that are grey as well to really bring a monotone vibe to the color scheme :)


I got you fam:
https://www.kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage2-silver/
(in the box also comes with the optional blue home row keys)

Here is the regular Avantage2 (black, blue home row (no gray keys)):
https://www.kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage2/

We only have about 20-30 of these since the hydroskin was very expensive (much more than we wanted)! But we may make more if there is interest:
https://www.kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage2-graphite/
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: localredhead on Wed, 03 August 2016, 13:46:58
I want a Advantage V2 Pro model (with the customary silver finish) but I would like to get home-row keys that are grey as well to really bring a monotone vibe to the color scheme :)


I got you fam:
https://www.kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage2-silver/
(in the box also comes with the optional blue home row keys)

Here is the regular Avantage2 (black, blue home row (no gray keys)):
https://www.kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage2/

We only have about 20-30 of these since the hydroskin was very expensive (much more than we wanted)! But we may make more if there is interest:
https://www.kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage2-graphite/

The graphite!!  It will be mine. Oh yes.. it will be mine.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: azth on Wed, 03 August 2016, 15:34:56
We only have about 20-30 of these since the hydroskin was very expensive (much more than we wanted)! But we may make more if there is interest:
https://www.kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage2-graphite/

How much heavier is it than the regular finish Advantage2? It's only the top half I presume (the bottom is silver or black)?
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Wed, 03 August 2016, 16:00:38
We only have about 20-30 of these since the hydroskin was very expensive (much more than we wanted)! But we may make more if there is interest:
https://www.kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage2-graphite/

How much heavier is it than the regular finish Advantage2? It's only the top half I presume (the bottom is silver or black)?

Less than an ounce of difference in weight, it's not noticeable. And yes, it's only the top case (the bottom remains black).
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Input Nirvana on Wed, 03 August 2016, 23:13:23
Congrats on releasing this!
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: davkol on Thu, 04 August 2016, 03:36:56
Yay!

I'm curious, what's the difference between the basic and QD models?
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Thu, 04 August 2016, 23:53:01
Yay!

I'm curious, what's the difference between the basic and QD models?

It's just like before with the original Advantage and the Advantage/QD - only the key caps are different (QD model has dual legend qwerty/dvorak key caps). Other than they are identical.

I think for people who may want to have multiple switchable layouts in their keyboards the blank keycap set makes sense.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: glax on Fri, 05 August 2016, 04:55:01

I got you fam:
https://www.kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage2-silver/
(in the box also comes with the optional blue home row keys)

Here is the regular Avantage2 (black, blue home row (no gray keys)):
https://www.kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage2/

We only have about 20-30 of these since the hydroskin was very expensive (much more than we wanted)! But we may make more if there is interest:
https://www.kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage2-graphite/

Finally  :D :D :D :D :D

I can't wait to lay my hands on it.

According to the pdf-brochure, there are UK, GER and SE versions intended in the future. Will there be a blank key cap version? I'd rather omit spending additional 40 bucks for a blank set.

If this results in too many options, maybe it might be an option to package stripped keyboards with a desired set of key caps; people intending to apply the o-ring mod have to strip the keyboard anyway.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: davkol on Fri, 05 August 2016, 05:16:15
Yay!

I'm curious, what's the difference between the basic and QD models?

It's just like before with the original Advantage and the Advantage/QD - only the key caps are different (QD model has dual legend qwerty/dvorak key caps). Other than they are identical.

I think for people who may want to have multiple switchable layouts in their keyboards the blank keycap set makes sense.

I see, it's QWERTY-Dvorak. I feel dumb now.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Fri, 05 August 2016, 18:05:21

I got you fam:
https://www.kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage2-silver/
(in the box also comes with the optional blue home row keys)

Here is the regular Avantage2 (black, blue home row (no gray keys)):
https://www.kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage2/

We only have about 20-30 of these since the hydroskin was very expensive (much more than we wanted)! But we may make more if there is interest:
https://www.kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage2-graphite/

Finally  :D :D :D :D :D

I can't wait to lay my hands on it.

According to the pdf-brochure, there are UK, GER and SE versions intended in the future. Will there be a blank key cap version? I'd rather omit spending additional 40 bucks for a blank set.

If this results in too many options, maybe it might be an option to package stripped keyboards with a desired set of key caps; people intending to apply the o-ring mod have to strip the keyboard anyway.

I think that's a good idea. I know we we probably don't want to have too many versions (it gets confusing for our resellers) but it probably wouldn't hurt to add one more for Blank keys. Or at the very least perhaps we can work directly with people for a "special order KB600-blank" or something like that not listed on our website. Kind of a geekhack exclusive.  I'm going to push for this.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sat, 06 August 2016, 01:01:54

I got you fam:
https://www.kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage2-silver/ (https://www.kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage2-silver/)
(in the box also comes with the optional blue home row keys)

Here is the regular Avantage2 (black, blue home row (no gray keys)):
https://www.kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage2/ (https://www.kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage2/)

We only have about 20-30 of these since the hydroskin was very expensive (much more than we wanted)! But we may make more if there is interest:
https://www.kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage2-graphite/ (https://www.kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage2-graphite/)

Finally  :D :D :D :D :D

I can't wait to lay my hands on it.

According to the pdf-brochure, there are UK, GER and SE versions intended in the future. Will there be a blank key cap version? I'd rather omit spending additional 40 bucks for a blank set.

If this results in too many options, maybe it might be an option to package stripped keyboards with a desired set of key caps; people intending to apply the o-ring mod have to strip the keyboard anyway.

I think that's a good idea. I know we we probably don't want to have too many versions (it gets confusing for our resellers) but it probably wouldn't hurt to add one more for Blank keys. Or at the very least perhaps we can work directly with people for a "special order KB600-blank" or something like that not listed on our website. Kind of a geekhack exclusive.  I'm going to push for this.

1) BLANK KEYCAP OPTION X 1,000,000,000

2) And somewhere, someplace, someone PLEASE assemble the KINESIS ADVANTAGE keycaps in PBT or POM.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: figit090 on Sat, 06 August 2016, 01:31:58

I got you fam:
https://www.kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage2-silver/ (https://www.kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage2-silver/)
(in the box also comes with the optional blue home row keys)

Here is the regular Avantage2 (black, blue home row (no gray keys)):
https://www.kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage2/ (https://www.kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage2/)

We only have about 20-30 of these since the hydroskin was very expensive (much more than we wanted)! But we may make more if there is interest:
https://www.kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage2-graphite/ (https://www.kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage2-graphite/)

Finally  :D :D :D :D :D

I can't wait to lay my hands on it.

According to the pdf-brochure, there are UK, GER and SE versions intended in the future. Will there be a blank key cap version? I'd rather omit spending additional 40 bucks for a blank set.

If this results in too many options, maybe it might be an option to package stripped keyboards with a desired set of key caps; people intending to apply the o-ring mod have to strip the keyboard anyway.

I think that's a good idea. I know we we probably don't want to have too many versions (it gets confusing for our resellers) but it probably wouldn't hurt to add one more for Blank keys. Or at the very least perhaps we can work directly with people for a "special order KB600-blank" or something like that not listed on our website. Kind of a geekhack exclusive.  I'm going to push for this.

1) BLANK KEYCAP OPTION X 1,000,000,000

2) And somewhere, someplace, someone PLEASE assemble the KINESIS ADVANTAGE keycaps in PBT or POM.
I thought blanks were available?

Sent from my XT1031 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sat, 06 August 2016, 01:41:34
They are/were available, but may be limited. They are black.


Via iPhone 6 Plus/iPad Mini + Tapatalk VIP + while driving 70mph
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: islisis on Sat, 06 August 2016, 04:16:29
Was there any decision on selling home key color sets separately?
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: csmertx on Sat, 06 August 2016, 04:44:16
Cherry ML switch implementation? Say what? intrigued :)
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sun, 07 August 2016, 15:25:54
Cherry ML switch implementation? Say what? intrigued :)

Kinesis is now using ML switches on the upper function row instead of the mushy, rubber, press buttons. Major upgrade!
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: csmertx on Sun, 07 August 2016, 15:43:32
Cherry ML switch implementation? Say what? intrigued :)

Kinesis is now using ML switches on the upper function row instead of the mushy, rubber, press buttons. Major upgrade!

I'm thinking about it -- they definitely have my attention with the ML switches :cool:
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: vatin on Sun, 07 August 2016, 20:49:51
Thank you so much for listening to my and many other's request of using mechanical switches for function keys. Now it is perfect.
Would you offer an "upgrade kit" for Advantage 1 owners?
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: adreamer on Mon, 08 August 2016, 15:42:34
Thank you so much for listening to my and many other's request of using mechanical switches for function keys. Now it is perfect.
Would you offer an "upgrade kit" for Advantage 1 owners?

An "upgrade" option would be great  :)
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: vatin on Mon, 08 August 2016, 23:06:53
Thank you so much for listening to my and many other's request of using mechanical switches for function keys. Now it is perfect.
Would you offer an "upgrade kit" for Advantage 1 owners?

An "upgrade" option would be great  :)

I mailed to ask Kinesis who said there is no plan for an upgrade kit. However, I've placed an order for 1 Advantage LF.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Tue, 09 August 2016, 13:04:28
They are/were available, but may be limited. They are black.


Oh yeah, the blank keycaps are available (https://www.kinesis-ergo.com/shop/blank-keycap-set/), it's just that they are sold separately and not pre-installed.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Tue, 09 August 2016, 13:07:15
Was there any decision on selling home key color sets separately?

Yeah, we got a bunch of different home row keycaps available although I'm really only a fan of the gray and the blues:
https://www.kinesis-ergo.com/shop/alternate-home-row-colors/

We may get different colors later if people are interested, like green (why don't we have a green?!), black, etc.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: yaun on Wed, 10 August 2016, 12:34:34
@Natas Do you know when the new advantage keyboard will be available at resellers in europe? i'm really looking forward to it. But purchasing directly from kinesis would come close to 500 euros with shipping, taxes, etc. Although I wonder if resellers can offer a better price...
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Wed, 10 August 2016, 17:20:49
@Natas Do you know when the new advantage keyboard will be available at resellers in europe? i'm really looking forward to it. But purchasing directly from kinesis would come close to 500 euros with shipping, taxes, etc. Although I wonder if resellers can offer a better price...

Little bit of a delay with our international resellers. I would say at least 3-4 weeks before our European resellers are selling them.

 
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: swesluggo on Thu, 11 August 2016, 14:11:43
@Natas Do you know when the new advantage keyboard will be available at resellers in europe? i'm really looking forward to it. But purchasing directly from kinesis would come close to 500 euros with shipping, taxes, etc. Although I wonder if resellers can offer a better price...

Little bit of a delay with our international resellers. I would say at least 3-4 weeks before our European resellers are selling them.

Does that include the international layouts? and on that note, I heard that you were thinking of moving the Å-key (on the SE-layout), did you? and if so, where did it end up?
Thank you for an awesome kbd!
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Thu, 11 August 2016, 15:12:47
@Natas Do you know when the new advantage keyboard will be available at resellers in europe? i'm really looking forward to it. But purchasing directly from kinesis would come close to 500 euros with shipping, taxes, etc. Although I wonder if resellers can offer a better price...

Little bit of a delay with our international resellers. I would say at least 3-4 weeks before our European resellers are selling them.

Does that include the international layouts? and on that note, I heard that you were thinking of moving the Å-key (on the SE-layout), did you? and if so, where did it end up?
Thank you for an awesome kbd!


Yes, that includes all the international layouts. We did fix the Swedish layout as well. As you know, the original Advantage-SE model was a bit wonky in regards to where the Å-key ended up (next to the down arrow key, which you would probably prefer to remap using the programming features). Now we have it in the more natural location by the letter "P" key. Here is the default Swedish layout in the Adv2:

(http://i.imgur.com/8xN9Adi.jpg)
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Steven Tammen on Sat, 13 August 2016, 17:44:15
I've been waiting for this for a long time. Bravo!

I'd be interested to hear if the internals will be able to support custom firmware. I currently use a rather complicated AutoHotkey script to place modifiers on the home row and many other keys on layers (counting the base layer, I have 6 at present, all accessible by holding down certain keys). It would be great to have these things enabled on the firmware level.

I'd also like to see a split-hand concave keyboard someday, but baby steps I suppose. If there's a Kinesis Advantage3, this would be the most important new feature, in my opinion.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: sordna on Fri, 19 August 2016, 12:10:31
Received my Advantage 2 LF yesterday. It's amazing! Thanks Kinesis!
The firmware is awesome, and finally momentary keypad action can be mapped to any key. Great to be able to save my layout in a text file too!
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Wed, 24 August 2016, 16:42:44
Received my Advantage 2 LF yesterday. It's amazing! Thanks Kinesis!
The firmware is awesome, and finally momentary keypad action can be mapped to any key. Great to be able to save my layout in a text file too!


Glad to hear it! Much easier to program the keypad now versus the old "hack" way of doing it.

Should be some new firmware up on our website later today to fix some bugs in the original build. It will be on our Adv2 resources page:
http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/advantage2-resources/

There is currently 1.0.18 on the resource page which is really only needed for international users. The next firmware that you'll want to update to is 1.0.35, which again should be up later today or possibly tomorrow.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: amlai on Wed, 24 August 2016, 17:05:48
The new Adv2 seems great and the real keyswitches are definitely an upgrade over the older models. Unfortunately, I ran into KVM compatibility issues, so I haven't been using the keyboard much. I have a fairly advanced KVM (IOGear GCS1924), so it doesn't surprise me all that much, though it worked flawlessly with my Advantage Pro. I'm sort of hoping that some future firmware will help make the KVM work, but if not, I'll move the keyboard to the office where I don't have a KVM.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: csmertx on Wed, 24 August 2016, 17:14:07
Received my Advantage 2 LF yesterday. It's amazing! Thanks Kinesis!
The firmware is awesome, and finally momentary keypad action can be mapped to any key. Great to be able to save my layout in a text file too!


Glad to hear it! Much easier to program the keypad now versus the old "hack" way of doing it.

Should be some new firmware up on our website later today to fix some bugs in the original build. It will be on our Adv2 resources page:
http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/advantage2-resources/

There is currently 1.0.18 on the resource page which is really only needed for international users. The next firmware that you'll want to update to is 1.0.35, which again should be up later today or possibly tomorrow.

Multimedia functionality, nice :)
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Thu, 25 August 2016, 16:49:40
version 1.0.46 firmware available now:
http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/advantage2-resources/

Check the tech notes for what it fixed and what features it added. For Dvorak users, I recommend updating since it will make your life easier in regards  to programming your layout(s).
 
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: islisis on Fri, 26 August 2016, 06:18:15

Yeah, we got a bunch of different home row keycaps available although I'm really only a fan of the gray and the blues:
https://www.kinesis-ergo.com/shop/alternate-home-row-colors/

We may get different colors later if people are interested, like green (why don't we have a green?!), black, etc.

Oh yeah, the blank keycaps are available (https://www.kinesis-ergo.com/shop/blank-keycap-set/), it's just that they are sold separately and not pre-installed.

i would be interested in more dark colors, i still think dark red would work well, and sold in blank separately.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Megavvolt on Sat, 27 August 2016, 02:24:15
While we only offer Cherry Browns & Cherry Reds, we're always happy to provide the bare parts necessary to convert a current Advantage keyboard to whatever key switch you prefer and it's fairly inexpensive.
Would be super nice to be able to buy bare PCB's for Cherry ML function keys to be able to retrofit older keyboards - we've all suffered from those rubber buttons for years, lots of folks inserted extra buttons to remap to them at least some of the function keys - would be really good to finally upgrade those rubber buttons not at the cost of a new keyboard.

You might want to limit this to, say, two pcb sets per geekhack nickname or something like that...
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: mystdrkn on Mon, 29 August 2016, 19:05:03
While we only offer Cherry Browns & Cherry Reds, we're always happy to provide the bare parts necessary to convert a current Advantage keyboard to whatever key switch you prefer and it's fairly inexpensive.
Would be super nice to be able to buy bare PCB's for Cherry ML function keys to be able to retrofit older keyboards - we've all suffered from those rubber buttons for years, lots of folks inserted extra buttons to remap to them at least some of the function keys - would be really good to finally upgrade those rubber buttons not at the cost of a new keyboard.

You might want to limit this to, say, two pcb sets per geekhack nickname or something like that...

I asked Ricky at Kinesis support about swapping the function key PCBs out in an Advantage 1 for those used in the Advantage 2:

Quote
Unfortunately no, they aren’t compatible.

Originally we intended each would be compatible (Advantage1 user could swap out main circuit board and attach existing rubber function keys to new main board or existing Adv1 user could simply swap out rubber function keys to mechanical) but it didn’t work out that way.  Many of the function keys wont’ work (a few will).

I also asked if I could swap the main circuit board and replace the function keys. I didn't get a response to that — I was also trying to order some pre-made Cherry Red key wells and thumb keys, to replace the Cherry Clears from a previous experiment, so I think I was trying to do too much in one email.

Opening up my Advantage 2 and comparing the Advantage 1, it appears that you'd have to swap five PCBs to swap out the function keys: the PCBs for the thumb keys, function keys, and main circuit board. The main circuit board now uses flat flex cables for all connections. The advantage 1 uses a ribbon cable to connect the thumb keys to the main circuit board.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Megavvolt on Mon, 29 August 2016, 23:07:00
Thanks for the update mystdrkn.

If it comes to that, I don't see what could keep me from wiring the new function keys PCBs to the main PCB using some wires and a soldering iron.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: vvp on Tue, 30 August 2016, 01:46:33
If it comes to that, I don't see what could keep me from wiring the new function keys PCBs to the main PCB using some wires and a soldering iron.
Key scanning matrix may be different on Advantage2 compared to Advantage1. So it is possible that the only option is to replace all 5 PCBs. If that is the case then it may be cheaper to buy a new Advantage2.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: sordna on Tue, 30 August 2016, 11:01:00
Not to mention the function row is held in place with glue ... It would make the replacement messy. I too think it is better to buy the Advantage 2. Plus the new firmware is amazing and the quirky PS/2 - USB internal converter is gone (no PCB in the bottom case); it's a much cleaner architecture now. I highly recommend the new Advantage!
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Megavvolt on Tue, 30 August 2016, 14:38:26
It is not glue - just polypropene. A soldering iron at 160 C works just great. No mess at all.

There will always be those who like to tinker and those who'd rather buy new.

All I say is, it would be super nice to have a choice.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Tue, 30 August 2016, 15:07:35
If it comes to that, I don't see what could keep me from wiring the new function keys PCBs to the main PCB using some wires and a soldering iron.
Key scanning matrix may be different on Advantage2 compared to Advantage1. So it is possible that the only option is to replace all 5 PCBs. If that is the case then it may be cheaper to buy a new Advantage2.

Right, this is the issue. Otherwise it would be possible, although a bit tricky as sordna pointed out the new mechanical function rows have a spacer installed, which the PCB then mounts to and is screwed in (certainly possibly though to DIY). Unfortunately they just won't work with the older circuit board & firmware (and vice versa), which means vvp is correct in that you would have to just replace all the PCBs and only keep the keywells.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: sordna on Tue, 30 August 2016, 21:10:52

All I say is, it would be super nice to have a choice.

I agree, I had asked Kinesis the same question as you.

Quote
There will always be those who like to tinker and those who'd rather buy new.

And some that like to get the new stuff AND tinker with it :-) I gave my brand new Advantage 2 LF the same treatment I gave my original LFs, and highly recommend both the new keyboard and this modification !

Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Input Nirvana on Tue, 30 August 2016, 21:44:11

All I say is, it would be super nice to have a choice.

I agree, I had asked Kinesis the same question as you.

Quote
There will always be those who like to tinker and those who'd rather buy new.

And some that like to get the new stuff AND tinker with it :-) I gave my brand new Advantage 2 LF the same treatment I gave my original LFs, and highly recommend both the new keyboard and this modification !

Sordna! You didn't waste any time!


Via iPhone 6 Plus/iPad Mini + Tapatalk VIP + while driving 70mph
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Megavvolt on Tue, 30 August 2016, 22:39:43
Sordna - thanks to you, :) my Kinesis Classic has five extra buttons (and a trackpoint with 3 trackpoint buttons - I had to murder a SK-8855 ($78) to get this done). Connecting trackpoint buttons to the flexible cable using 36awg teflon wires was a pain but I made it. I am quite happy with my keyboard and I just can't afford spending another $360 + $78 plus the cost of PS-15.

natas206 - I am pretty good at soldering but at the same time I am an absolute zero when it comes to electronics. Nine buttons, 18 wires to connect on each side. If I have to cut some (or all) PCB traces and connect the buttons as my Kinesis Classic needs it I will. I don't need to use the flexible cable at all. Why are you guys (you, vvp and sordna) saying I can't do it?
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: sordna on Tue, 30 August 2016, 23:23:44
Wow please do a thread to show your mod !  And put at least 2 photos in my thread NOW  :-)
Ok, if you change wiring the new function rows *might* work, I think what Kinesis is saying is that is not a drop-in replacement that they can offer to customers. They do sell parts however so you could order some but at your own risk and it could take a lot of ugly re-wiring work with no guarantee of success.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Input Nirvana on Tue, 30 August 2016, 23:27:24
Megavolt:
It's a requirement you post some detailed photos of your mod.

I can't wait to see this....


Via iPhone 6 Plus/iPad Mini + Tapatalk VIP + while driving 70mph
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: csmertx on Wed, 31 August 2016, 05:52:55
Megavolt:
It's a requirement you post some detailed photos of your mod.

I can't wait to see this....


Via iPhone 6 Plus/iPad Mini + Tapatalk VIP + while driving 70mph

I, too, would love to see some keyboard por.. pictures of your setup
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: vvp on Wed, 31 August 2016, 06:12:37
If I have to cut some (or all) PCB traces and connect the buttons as my Kinesis Classic needs it I will. I don't need to use the flexible cable at all. Why are you guys (you, vvp and sordna) saying I can't do it?
If you are willing to re-route function key PCBs then of course you can do it. You need to draw schematic for the old function key PCBs and for the new ones. Then scratch and reconnect the traces on the new function key PCBs so that they represent the same schematic as on the old ones. So it is possible to do it. I just did not expected that you are willing to reroute the PCBs. But even if you are willing to do it then I think it may be easier to design your own PCBs which correspond to the old schematic and use CherryML switches. It depends how much the key scanning matrices differ between the old and the new versions of the function key PCBs.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Megavvolt on Wed, 31 August 2016, 08:14:00
Adding the trackpoint was really easy thanks to geekhack.org topics:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=55960.msg1291412#msg1291412
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=11420.0

As for the buttons, Sordna did all the work in his topic (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=26579.0) and even answered my stupid questions.


Picture attached as you requested - apologies for fugly wrist pads - would love to get new ones but have no idea where to buy them.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: csmertx on Wed, 31 August 2016, 08:16:30
Adding the trackpoint was really easy thanks to geekhack.org topics:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=55960.msg1291412#msg1291412
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=11420.0

As for the buttons, Sordna did all the work in his topic (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=26579.0) and even answered my stupid questions.


Picture attached as you requested - apologies for fugly wrist pads - would love to get new ones but have no idea where to buy them.

That is put together really well :)

The Kinesis website has the black wrist pads for sale if you don't mind switching it up a little bit
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Megavvolt on Wed, 31 August 2016, 08:31:02
Black won't look good here I'm afraid. Besides, I don't look at the keyboard while I type :) and the nasty looks of these pads don't really bother me. Of course ugly is ugly, and I would love to change that - just don't have that chance.

vvp, sordna - I'd much rather get a new keyboard but beggars can't be choosers. I am still using a PS/2 Classic (had to add USB hub inside). Making new PCB's is not something I can do, but I will have no problem cutting the traces right at the holes and wiring 9 buttons on each side. Come, on it's just 18 wires to solder on each side.

Question is, how to get a function keys sets (ideally with the mounting plates and keycaps). Will try to PM natas206.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: mystdrkn on Wed, 31 August 2016, 13:40:33
version 1.0.46 firmware available now:
http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/advantage2-resources/

Check the tech notes for what it fixed and what features it added. For Dvorak users, I recommend updating since it will make your life easier in regards  to programming your layout(s).
 

natas206, is there a plan in the works for interested customers adding themselves to an announcement email list for firmware updates to the Advantage 2? That would be helpful to keep track of new updates without refreshing the Advantage 2 resource page regularly.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Wed, 31 August 2016, 16:02:42
version 1.0.46 firmware available now:
http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/advantage2-resources/

Check the tech notes for what it fixed and what features it added. For Dvorak users, I recommend updating since it will make your life easier in regards  to programming your layout(s).
 

natas206, is there a plan in the works for interested customers adding themselves to an announcement email list for firmware updates to the Advantage 2? That would be helpful to keep track of new updates without refreshing the Advantage 2 resource page regularly.

We were just talking about that here at Kinesis. While we're figuring out the best way to do this, in the meantime you can follow us on twitter or Facebook and we'll make firmware announcements there for now. 

https://twitter.com/kinesisergo?lang=en
https://www.facebook.com/KinesisErgo/
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Wed, 31 August 2016, 16:05:12

All I say is, it would be super nice to have a choice.

I agree, I had asked Kinesis the same question as you.

Quote
There will always be those who like to tinker and those who'd rather buy new.

And some that like to get the new stuff AND tinker with it :-) I gave my brand new Advantage 2 LF the same treatment I gave my original LFs, and highly recommend both the new keyboard and this modification !





Dude, you're a legend! This was super fast and impressive!

Researching your emails you sent so expect some delays, trying to prioritize everything between the few of us here is a challenge! But this is fun stuff.

Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Findecanor on Thu, 15 September 2016, 12:44:03
Is this the new model?

Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: sordna on Thu, 15 September 2016, 22:23:06
Is this the new model?


Yup it is. Advantage2, QD variant.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: dusanx on Sun, 25 September 2016, 03:34:25
What is going on with kinesis-ergo site? Every single troubleshooting or contact link does not work. My J key on previous LF model just died and I am trying to contact kinesis but not a single link to do so works. Should I try contacting natas here? Is there alternative email somebody can send me on pm?

I can't even type on this apple monstrosity keyboard after using LF for almost five years.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: hoggy on Sun, 25 September 2016, 03:57:09
I'm sure sending natas206 a pm will be fine.  Customer support at Kinesis is pretty much top notch.

The links are broken for me as well.  Luckily google cached the page - just add 'cache:' to the start of the url.

Quote
Contacting Technical Support

For repairs please contact technical support (techsupport@kinesis.com) for an RMA number. If you need help urgently, please call 425-402-8100 (option 2). Phone lines are staffed M-F between 8:30 AM – 11:30 AM and 12:30 PM – 4:30 PM Pacific time. If you call and a technician is not available, we will return your call as soon as possible. However, we are unable to return phone calls to locations outside of North America. When you contact Kinesis or leave a message to request technical support, please provide the following information:

Your name, phone number, city, and email address
Kinesis product model and serial number (required)
Purchase date of Kinesis product and vendor name, if you know it
Computer model and operating system (required)
Details of your problem or question
FAQs, Troubleshooting & User Manuals

For technical questions concerning your product the best place to start is to refer to the left side bar of this page. This is where you will find answers to FAQs, troubleshooting a particular issue and downloading user manuals.

Edit: I've sent them email about the website.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: hoggy on Sun, 25 September 2016, 04:04:50
Took the liberty of looking up a relevant item on their support page.

Quote
Determine if the key is producing the wrong character or if it is electrically dead. If it’s the wrong character, try remapping the key to itself:
1). Press and Hold the Program key and tap F12 (lights on keyboard will begin to flash rapidly).
2). Press and release the non-working key (flashing lights SHOULD slow down in speed. If they do not, this indicates that the key is not being registered and is likely damaged. If this is the case, repeat step 1 to exit remap mode & contact tech support. If the lights do slow down, continue to step 3).
3). Press and release the non-working key a second time (flashing lights will speed up).
4). Repeat step 1 to exit.
If the key seems electronically dead, you can try removing the individual keycap (if you have a USB keyboard it should have came with a “keycap removal tool.” Use this to remove the keycap. If your keyboard did not come with the tool, use two paper clips- bend them in the shape of a hook or “J” and pull the keycap straight up) and spray canned air inside the key switch to remove any dirt/debris. If there appears to be any sticky residues on the keycap or on the key switch, try to clean the area as best as you can (usually a damp paper towel is good enough).

If the problem continues, it is likely that the individual key switch is damaged and may require a repair.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: dusanx on Sun, 25 September 2016, 04:21:43
Thanks. It seems dead completely, just one key, so I sent PM to natas. After pulling keycap (which is top of my skills) cherry red looks completely normal. Keyboard wasn't spilled on or damaged in any way, cherry red just seems to die natural way. I just tried those steps and it doesn't register at all.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: hoggy on Sun, 25 September 2016, 10:32:21
eek.  Hope you manage to get it fixed.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: dusanx on Sun, 25 September 2016, 11:17:15
Just placed order for ergodox ez :/ I love kinesis and want to get it fixed asap but I can't stand typing on Apple keyboard (or any with slanted key rows). Even this post had 50% mistakes, which makes it impossible to use for a programmer who types for a living. So in the future I must maintain at least pool of two kinesis / ergodox keyboards to avoid typing on this c.rap.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: dusanx on Tue, 27 September 2016, 15:55:26
Quote
Customer support at Kinesis is pretty much top notch.

I can now confirm this :) Hopefully ez will be good substitute until I get LF fixed, but until I get my kinesis bowls back I don't think anything else will fit my fingers completely.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Findecanor on Sun, 23 October 2016, 19:15:53
I have a small test for anybody who would have the Kinesis Advantage 2:

* Direct your web browser to https://www.microsoft.com/appliedsciences/AntiGhostingExplained.mspx
* Click to use the application at the top of the page.
* Hold down six alphanumeric keys simultaneously.
* While holding down the six keys, press a seventh alphanumeric key ... and report what happens!

The old Kinesis Advantage (v1) had a bug, in which it forgot ALL key presses when this happened.
Other keyboards behave in one of three ways:
- It has N-key rollover, so it will report all of them anyway
- It will refuse to acknowledge the seventh key press
- The oldest pressed key will disappear.

I think it would be interesting to see if the old bug is still there ...
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Mon, 24 October 2016, 16:01:06
I have a small test for anybody who would have the Kinesis Advantage 2:

* Direct your web browser to https://www.microsoft.com/appliedsciences/AntiGhostingExplained.mspx
* Click to use the application at the top of the page.
* Hold down six alphanumeric keys simultaneously.
* While holding down the six keys, press a seventh alphanumeric key ... and report what happens!

The old Kinesis Advantage (v1) had a bug, in which it forgot ALL key presses when this happened.
Other keyboards behave in one of three ways:
- It has N-key rollover, so it will report all of them anyway
- It will refuse to acknowledge the seventh key press
- The oldest pressed key will disappear.

I think it would be interesting to see if the old bug is still there ...

It took me a second to figure out what you meant but yes, that's gone with the Adv2.

To be clear, I took an original Adv1, held down 6 keys which shows up on the screen, press a 7th key and the previous six keys disappear (or forgets like you said). With the Adv2 however, I press and hold 6 keys, tap a 7th key and the 6 keys remain held down on the screen.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Findecanor on Mon, 24 October 2016, 17:01:31
That's good! :) Thanks!
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Tue, 25 October 2016, 12:43:17
That's good! :) Thanks!

We'll probably have a firmware update at some point to add full n-key rollover support as well. This is a feature the "gaming" Freesytle keyboard will have and since it's using the same technology seems possible to implement it here as well, probably won't be anytime soon though.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Salt Peanuts on Tue, 25 October 2016, 16:07:11
To be clear, I took an original Adv1, held down 6 keys which shows up on the screen, press a 7th key and the previous six keys disappear (or forgets like you said). With the Adv2 however, I press and hold 6 keys, tap a 7th key and the 6 keys remain held down on the screen.
Same thing with my Advantage and Advantage2.  Out of curiosity, is this 'bug' on Adv1 actually a problem for people?  I only ask since I don't think I've ever needed to press that many keys at once in normal everyday use.

We'll probably have a firmware update at some point to add full n-key rollover support as well. This is a feature the "gaming" Freesytle keyboard will have and since it's using the same technology seems possible to implement it here as well, probably won't be anytime soon though.
Didn't realize you guys were still working on the gaming Freestyle.  Is the plan still to use mechanical switches and is there an ETA for it? 
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Wed, 26 October 2016, 11:02:58
To be clear, I took an original Adv1, held down 6 keys which shows up on the screen, press a 7th key and the previous six keys disappear (or forgets like you said). With the Adv2 however, I press and hold 6 keys, tap a 7th key and the 6 keys remain held down on the screen.
Same thing with my Advantage and Advantage2.  Out of curiosity, is this 'bug' on Adv1 actually a problem for people?  I only ask since I don't think I've ever needed to press that many keys at once in normal everyday use.

Not that I'm aware of. I'm sure there is some unique circumstance where that isn't the desired result though.



Quote
Didn't realize you guys were still working on the gaming Freestyle.  Is the plan still to use mechanical switches and is there an ETA for it? 

Oh yeah, that's what we're working on now. We will use Cherry switches, for sure Reds and Browns and maybe Blues as well. So I believe the plan is to have two versions - a "gaming" version and a "office" version, the gaming version will have some more features and backlit keys. ETA, first quarter of 2017.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Niomosy on Wed, 26 October 2016, 16:04:35
Q1 2017 isn't actually that bad in terms of waiting.  Looking forward to this one.

Any chance the gaming version will have some extra keys on the left side?
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Salt Peanuts on Wed, 26 October 2016, 16:56:03
Q1 2017 isn't actually that bad in terms of waiting.  Looking forward to this one.

Any chance the gaming version will have some extra keys on the left side?

Unless the plan has changed, it should have 8 macros keys on the left.  I'm interested but I've been having difficulties with using keyboards without thumb clusters.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Thu, 27 October 2016, 16:42:19
Q1 2017 isn't actually that bad in terms of waiting.  Looking forward to this one.

Any chance the gaming version will have some extra keys on the left side?

Unless the plan has changed, it should have 8 macros keys on the left.  I'm interested but I've been having difficulties with using keyboards without thumb clusters.

That's right- dedicated macro keys on the left side, although the entire keyboard is fully programmable as well so you wont be limited to just those keys. It will have similar technology as the Advantage2 so you can expect multiple layouts, etc.

I'm the same way - I need thumb keys to function but for gaming I've never been able to use an Advantage keyboard and still need a more traditional flat keyboard. I've heard similar from many of our customers though I'm sure some people are able to do it but it's always been a challenge personally.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Niomosy on Thu, 27 October 2016, 23:50:28
Q1 2017 isn't actually that bad in terms of waiting.  Looking forward to this one.

Any chance the gaming version will have some extra keys on the left side?

Unless the plan has changed, it should have 8 macros keys on the left.  I'm interested but I've been having difficulties with using keyboards without thumb clusters.

That's right- dedicated macro keys on the left side, although the entire keyboard is fully programmable as well so you wont be limited to just those keys. It will have similar technology as the Advantage2 so you can expect multiple layouts, etc.

I'm the same way - I need thumb keys to function but for gaming I've never been able to use an Advantage keyboard and still need a more traditional flat keyboard. I've heard similar from many of our customers though I'm sure some people are able to do it but it's always been a challenge personally.

Fantastic news, then, as that's right up my alley.  It's the ergo mech board missing (outside specialty buys like the VE.A but I'm not made of money to be able to afford that one).
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Salt Peanuts on Fri, 28 October 2016, 12:15:57
That's right- dedicated macro keys on the left side, although the entire keyboard is fully programmable as well so you wont be limited to just those keys. It will have similar technology as the Advantage2 so you can expect multiple layouts, etc.

I'm the same way - I need thumb keys to function but for gaming I've never been able to use an Advantage keyboard and still need a more traditional flat keyboard. I've heard similar from many of our customers though I'm sure some people are able to do it but it's always been a challenge personally.
Colemak doesn't help with gaming either.

I just noticed today that Pause/Break key on my Adv1 doesn't repeat when pressed down.  Is this by design or is the rubber dome key going bad?
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Fri, 28 October 2016, 17:33:22
That's right- dedicated macro keys on the left side, although the entire keyboard is fully programmable as well so you wont be limited to just those keys. It will have similar technology as the Advantage2 so you can expect multiple layouts, etc.

I'm the same way - I need thumb keys to function but for gaming I've never been able to use an Advantage keyboard and still need a more traditional flat keyboard. I've heard similar from many of our customers though I'm sure some people are able to do it but it's always been a challenge personally.
Colemak doesn't help with gaming either.

I just noticed today that Pause/Break key on my Adv1 doesn't repeat when pressed down.  Is this by design or is the rubber dome key going bad?

I just confirmed the Pause/Break key doesn't repeat on the Adv1. Not sure why that is. On the Adv2 it repeats just fine. I'll see if I can dig up some old notes as if there is a reason why the Adv1 is that way...
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: vvp on Sat, 29 October 2016, 08:23:40
Auto repeat is a feature of the operating system or PC bios. It is not a keyboard feature. Keyboards send only key-press, key-release events. One pair of events for one key press.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Salt Peanuts on Sat, 29 October 2016, 11:24:21
Auto repeat is a feature of the operating system or PC bios. It is not a keyboard feature. Keyboards send only key-press, key-release events. One pair of events for one key press.

I get that, except the Pause/Break key auto repeats on my Adv2, Atomic, QFR, and CODE TKL.  I'd imagine if my OS was preventing Pause/Break on Adv1, it would do the same with all my other keyboards.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: vvp on Sat, 29 October 2016, 17:46:22
That would mean that Adv1 sends key release even sooner than it should.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Salt Peanuts on Sat, 29 October 2016, 18:55:26
Still curious why it does this with just the Pause/Break key.  Not that I'd need have that key auto repeating.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: e_l_tang on Sat, 05 November 2016, 14:29:33
Are there plans to make the thumb keycaps on the Advantage convex?
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Snarfangel on Sun, 06 November 2016, 11:48:49
I just bought one of these and really like it.  :thumb:

I do wish there were a graphical interface to remap keys though, perhaps something similar to the keyboard layout analyzer http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer/#/config (http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer/#/config), since making macros for some of the keys that split shifted and unshifted characters in a layout -- like / and ? on a standard keyboard -- is a bit of a pain. I like having both / and ? unshifted. You also have to make these macros for both left and right shift versions, since it treats both differently. The keyboard really doesn't like having the files for text remapping edited with an outside text editor, either, which makes the simplest method of creating a layout editor less intuitive. But on the plus side, once you get a form you like, it is really performs well.

So all in all I still like it a lot, and I think I will like it even better as the firmware and support programs are improved. :)
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: mannelig on Mon, 07 November 2016, 05:25:28
I really hope sometimes you'll reconsider and there will be upgrade pack for Advantage 1. I'm quite happy with its mechanics (even rubber F-keys), but that old bug with sudden CAPSLOCKING is getting me tired.
Anyway, thanks for great work!
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Salt Peanuts on Mon, 07 November 2016, 12:06:03
I just bought one of these and really like it.  :thumb:

I do wish there were a graphical interface to remap keys though, perhaps something similar to the keyboard layout analyzer http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer/#/config (http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer/#/config), since making macros for some of the keys that split shifted and unshifted characters in a layout -- like / and ? on a standard keyboard -- is a bit of a pain. I like having both / and ? unshifted. You also have to make these macros for both left and right shift versions, since it treats both differently. The keyboard really doesn't like having the files for text remapping edited with an outside text editor, either, which makes the simplest method of creating a layout editor less intuitive. But on the plus side, once you get a form you like, it is really performs well.

So all in all I still like it a lot, and I think I will like it even better as the firmware and support programs are improved. :)
Regarding outside text editor, I've found it to work much better after I've made any changes with outside editor to eject/dismount the keyboard (as a storage media),  go to another layout, then switch back to your layout of choice.  I've also disabled the option to mount the keyboard as storage device on startup as leaving keyboard mounted was leading to some issues.

I really hope sometimes you'll reconsider and there will be upgrade pack for Advantage 1. I'm quite happy with its mechanics (even rubber F-keys), but that old bug with sudden CAPSLOCKING is getting me tired.
Anyway, thanks for great work!
I really should count myself lucky that I almost never encounter the good ol' stuck modifier bug on my Adv1.  I also use mine with hasu's USB-USB Converter so that may have something to do with it. 
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: dvnmk on Thu, 17 November 2016, 08:14:43
I hope also upgrade kit to adv2, but I think adv1 and 2 is so different.
So so, I upgraded the func keys mit cherry ml in diy stil.
It's not so difficult, but mechanical switch is super.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Salt Peanuts on Thu, 17 November 2016, 11:26:22
I hope also upgrade kit to adv2, but I think adv1 and 2 is so different.
So so, I upgraded the func keys mit cherry ml in diy stil.
It's not so difficult, but mechanical switch is super.

Do you have any internal pics of the function row key modification?  Do the function row PCBs support ML keys or did you hand-wire them?
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: dvnmk on Thu, 17 November 2016, 19:31:30
I hope also upgrade kit to adv2, but I think adv1 and 2 is so different.
So so, I upgraded the func keys mit cherry ml in diy stil.
It's not so difficult, but mechanical switch is super.

Do you have any internal pics of the function row key modification?  Do the function row PCBs support ML keys or did you hand-wire them?

MLs on PCB via hand-wiring
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: glax on Wed, 23 November 2016, 19:06:26
Got the advantage2 :D

I have some questions on programming and editing the layout files of the advantage2.

Is there a forum or any location where such discussions are placed best? 
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Mon, 05 December 2016, 15:58:28
Got the advantage2 :D

I have some questions on programming and editing the layout files of the advantage2.

Is there a forum or any location where such discussions are placed best? 

This thread is good for that kind of discussion or you can always create your own thread if you'd like. I'm from Kinesis btw and am happy to helpout! Sometimes I don't logon to Geekhack everyday though so for immediate support you can always email tech@kinesis.com
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Tue, 06 December 2016, 18:40:10
I know a few people wanted DVORAK ONLY key caps for their Advantage keyboards and we just got some today:

(Sorry for the crappy pic)
(http://i.imgur.com/eES9Ed7.jpg)

Can be purchased here. (https://www.kinesis-ergo.com/shop/dvorak-keycap-set/) They are the same type of key caps that our current Adv2 and Adv1 keyboards use.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sat, 10 December 2016, 18:13:41
DVORAK legends only is nice.

I like seeing any improvements regarding keycaps :)
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Salt Peanuts on Mon, 12 December 2016, 19:25:49
Any update on Colemak-only keycaps that were mentioned on Twitter?  I wouldn't mind replacing the keycaps on my Classic with those.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Input Nirvana on Tue, 13 December 2016, 00:58:42
Oooohhhh COLEMAK legends...that's a dream I've had more than once.
I've been using COLEMAK since '09-'10 and I've realized I need to settle for no legends.

FUNNY STORY:
I went to with a keyboard buddy for sushi and saki and saki and saki. Later we swing by his place and he shows some of the latest stuff he's working on. I'm impressed. Then he sorta laughs and shows me a keyboard he made and says "This is a mix of the old and the new" and he holds it proudly for me to get in on the insider joke. I draw a complete blank. He says "Recognize the keycaps?" I sorta did but couldn't place it. "The most famous/infamous Geekhack group buy in history?" I'm still blank. "The 7-bit Group Buy #3 that took YEARS?" I'm like "OOOOOHHHH YEEEAAAA", then he says "And the layout?" I look again and draw yet another blank. "The third most popular keyboard layout?". I'm so blank you can write on me like a chalkboard at this point. "It's COLEMAK". And I'm like "OOOOOHHHH YEEEAAAA....Is it really the third most popular layout?" DERP!

LESSON LEARNED:
Saki killz

My REAL Kinesis Advantage keycap fantasy:
Black Kinesis Advantage......with black high quality keycaps.......with transparent legend for keycap backlighting.......with dark orange (sorta Geekhack color)......and the legends are......wait.....wait....wait for it.....KLINGON!
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: vatin on Tue, 13 December 2016, 01:55:52
Pbt keycaps

Sent from my HUAWEI RIO-L02 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Fib on Mon, 19 December 2016, 05:16:02
I hope also upgrade kit to adv2, but I think adv1 and 2 is so different.
So so, I upgraded the func keys mit cherry ml in diy stil.
It's not so difficult, but mechanical switch is super.

Very nice. How did you get your keycaps? I've tried doing this myself, but I couldn't find any cherry ml keycaps in the right size, and I've tried 3d printing keycaps to fit but have trouble making stems to fit the cherry ml switches.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Tue, 10 January 2017, 17:47:19
I hope also upgrade kit to adv2, but I think adv1 and 2 is so different.
So so, I upgraded the func keys mit cherry ml in diy stil.
It's not so difficult, but mechanical switch is super.


Ah man, I totally missed this thread, awesome job on installing the ML switches. Where did you get the blank ML key caps? I'd like a source or two I can direct customers in the future. 
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: dvnmk on Tue, 10 January 2017, 22:48:08
Ah man, I totally missed this thread, awesome job on installing the ML switches. Where did you get the blank ML key caps? I'd like a source or two I can direct customers in the future. 

Very nice. How did you get your keycaps? I've tried doing this myself, but I couldn't find any cherry ml keycaps in the right size, and I've tried 3d printing keycaps to fit but have trouble making stems to fit the cherry ml switches.

from LEGO :)

(https://wm.sdf.org/gallery/albums/userpics/10565/1484109364.jpg)
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: sordna on Sat, 14 January 2017, 14:47:22
from LEGO :)

That's brilliant !  True geekhacker !
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: Salt Peanuts on Mon, 13 February 2017, 19:02:04
So I finally got around to replacing the switches on my Advantage2 and Advantage.

Here are some photos of the process if anyone's interested.

http://imgur.com/a/V8x6H
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: natas206 on Tue, 14 February 2017, 17:09:30
So I finally got around to replacing the switches on my Advantage2 and Advantage.

Here are some photos of the process if anyone's interested.

http://imgur.com/a/V8x6H

Very nice work.
Title: Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
Post by: weazen on Wed, 01 March 2017, 11:59:53
So I finally got around to replacing the switches on my Advantage2 and Advantage.

Here are some photos of the process if anyone's interested.

http://imgur.com/a/V8x6H

This looks fantastic!