Author Topic: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard  (Read 110729 times)

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Offline natas206

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Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
« on: Thu, 04 October 2012, 15:23:05 »
Please share any thoughts and ideas of what you would like to see for the next version of Contoured keyboard.

Offline hoggy

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Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
« Reply #1 on: Thu, 04 October 2012, 16:01:43 »
Built in roller mouse.
Central numpad that can be reprogrammed like the rest of the board.
Palm keys.
Dvorak only keyset
Track point - like m13
Full size function keys.

(these aren't my ideas... ).
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Offline dorkvader

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Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
« Reply #2 on: Thu, 04 October 2012, 18:13:48 »
I'd like to see a fully-split design, and one where the function keys are mechanical (or at least a better RD than the one used now)

I also support Dvorak, but since it's all programmable (and pretty well implemented) it's not a big issue.

A GUI for Linux/mac/windows would be nice to speed the creation of keyboard profiles that could be stored on the keyboard. That's a good idea.

Finally: PBT. Dyesub preferable, but PBT. PBT has much better material properties than ABS (except since it's harder, it's more brittle, so if you hit it with a hammer several times, it'll shatter instead of just bending. This isn't much of a problem, though.) For a top-quality ergo keyboard, I'd say PBT is a must. At the very least, it's that extra bit to differentiate.

I feel like the Kinesis users use their keyboards a lot. On all my "daily driver" keyboards, I use PBT (Or POM), so the keys don't wear down that much. I'm trying to get a used Kinesis on eBay, and they all have ABS keycaps, with wear. This isn't a problem, but it's less than optimal, especially since the keycaps aren't easy to replace (The "row5" ones on the top 4 thumbkeys, especially)

I was going to humerously suggest an LCD panel, like Logitech, but I'd be afraid you'd take it seriously (Like WEY does)
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Offline jwaz

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Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
« Reply #3 on: Fri, 05 October 2012, 03:09:05 »
The biggest things for me would be Colemak layout and PBT caps.

Maybe get rid of the non mechanical keys and add a trackpoint?

Offline Findecanor

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Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
« Reply #4 on: Fri, 05 October 2012, 14:32:35 »
As a European, and a user of a European layout, I have to use the Alt Gr (right Alt) modifier extensively for typing special symbols, such as [ ] { } @ etc. I find it too hard to reach the thumb keys for Alt Gr on my Kinesis Advantage.
I would prefer a key in-between the finger and thumb groups, as that would most resemble how to reach the Alt Gr Key on a "flat" keyboard
I think that I could also be content if I could use one of the keys from the first row (nearest me) as thumb keys, which is not possible now because of an edge of the case being in the way.
If possible, I would also like to remap the Shift keys to easily accessible thumb keys, but that depends on there being some. I have even considered building my own Kinesis-inspired keyboard just to leverage the use of thumb keys, but I found that hard to do without a 3D-printer (even though I do build stuff out of sheet metal and cast stuff in urethane in my other hobby).

I have also found that I often place things on the area in the middle of the keyboard.. but because the case is curved there, things tend to fall off. If that space was flat, then my coffee mug would be much more stable. ;)

When you do look for idea on how to improve the keyboard, please do also look on this board for threads showing modifications that Kinesis users have made. People have put trackballs, trackpads and trackpoints in their Kinesises, and also added keys at various places. However, the amount of places where you as a mod'er can place keys is somewhat reduced by the places already being occupied by bolts, electronics, etc.
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Online Input Nirvana

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Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
« Reply #5 on: Sun, 28 October 2012, 18:09:40 »
Just a few posts and almost all the mods I've done/talked about doing are already listed! Passionate crew!

1) Regarding keyboard layouts, yes it would be nice to have several options. I would still strongly suggest that blank keycaps be offered since so many people are professionals and touch typists and if someone wants a different layout they can have them layered or whatever.


2) Increasing the programability (although it's already the best out there), with the ability to have other layouts (Colemak) that don't get erased and macros that don't get erased if you change the layout.

I wish the Kinesis link in my sig had the pics :( I'll try to start adding them soon.
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | on Mac+Hackintosh
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Offline tiarnachutch

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Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
« Reply #6 on: Sun, 28 October 2012, 18:37:20 »
As a user who switches back and forth between laptop and desktop a lot, I'd like:
- TrackPoint
- Enter/delete, special characters in the "normal" qwerty locations (I don't mind the thumb cluster, I just don't want to have to use it for everything. Enter and delete throw me off quite a bit.
- Fully separable sides of the board (it's a little wide in the default configuration)
Home: IBM Model M (1991)
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Online Input Nirvana

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Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
« Reply #7 on: Sat, 03 November 2012, 01:07:46 »
- The ability for a user to create or switch on via programming a "KEYPAD" momentary key (not just the KEYPAD toggle) like the footswitch offers. Or add a key for this like I did on the left side so I can momentarily toggle for using the keypad with the right hand.

- I like the GUI idea for a visual and//or alternate way to select/modify all keyboard settings. If the firmware is made even more capable than it already is...it will be too complicated to set, reset, check, remember, or even know everything you can do, etc. And have it show the settings of a plugged in footswitch.

- ODD IDEA: I put a 4 port usb hub inside the split Kinesis for the trackpoint and scrollball, and I also plugged in a flash drive. The idea was that if I took the keyboard to another location, I would have the users manual, colemak layout settings files for win/mac, A list of the configurations, macros, and remappings, AND, I would be able to copy files from wherever I was into the keyboard....the memory is built in! The main reason was that when the keyboard is plugged into a computer there is another drive and you would have whatever information you needed on that drive. Obviously a very niche idea, you can just have a flash drive and have it plugged into the keyboard as it is now. But provisions for on board memory or be sure to continue to have a 'hollow' for a flash drive to sit without getting knocked.

- Make the indicator LEDs color selectable (red, blue, green. yellow, orange), and keep them nicely muted like they are now. Some keyboards the things are WAY TOO BRIGHT!

- Have the 4 LEDs farther apart so you can know which is lit without having to look down....just peripheral glance based on location would be enough.

- Change the connection for the footswitch from a male dongle sticking out of the back to a female plug-in, eliminate the extra female-female adapter, just plug the footswitch directly into the keyboard. I think Model #100 did this?

- Be sure not to use any buttons, switches, levers, or dip switches (ancient technology).

- Keep the plastic label on the bottom with the model and serial number. Lose the second label with the "instant configuration settings info" or if you must keep it, make it plastic, it's not much value when the printing wears off.

- The palm pads....maybe a dense memory foam or neoprene...
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | on Mac+Hackintosh
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Offline iMav

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Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
« Reply #8 on: Fri, 30 November 2012, 02:01:31 »
Blank keycaps (preferably PBT) is all I require.  Otherwise, it is pretty much perfect for my needs.  ;)

Offline natas206

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Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
« Reply #9 on: Fri, 30 November 2012, 15:44:12 »
We still have a couple sets of blank keycaps in inventory (black, $39). ABS, though. We are currently looking into several different possibilities for keycaps in the future. It's been a bit of challenge finding a factory that can do exactly what we would like.

Really appreciate all the great suggestions so far! 


Offline jpc

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Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
« Reply #10 on: Sat, 22 December 2012, 15:08:27 »
The controller on mine has a bug or two. Sometimes the CAPS LOCK light stays on even after CAPS LOCK is deactivated; toggling CAPS LOCK again clears the light. Sometimes the controller thinks the Shift key is stuck down when it's not; tapping the Shift key again clears it. I get one of these glitches every few minutes on an Advantage USB built in 2011.

Everything else is already great... please don't change too much  ;D

RSI prevention recipe:[/B] Kinesis Contoured, Colemak layout, touch typing, Contour Design Rollermouse,  Logitech TrackMan Wheel, Logitech m570 trackball, "workrave" break timer software, "awesome" window manager, tenkeyless boards, cherry browns, Wang 724 with "ghetto green" ALPS, standing desk and/or comfy adjustable chairs, stress reduction, computer time reduction.

Fun non-ergonomic things: bolt modded Model M Space Saving Keyboards with new springs, Kensington Expert Mouse v7, Unicomp Endurapro, Northgates

Offline natas206

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Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
« Reply #11 on: Mon, 24 December 2012, 11:30:23 »
The controller on mine has a bug or two. Sometimes the CAPS LOCK light stays on even after CAPS LOCK is deactivated; toggling CAPS LOCK again clears the light. Sometimes the controller thinks the Shift key is stuck down when it's not; tapping the Shift key again clears it. I get one of these glitches every few minutes on an Advantage USB built in 2011.

Everything else is already great... please don't change too much  ;D

Next time that problem occurs try holding down both left & right shift keys for a moment or two, should instantly clear the problem.

BTW, we're aware of this bug, although it seems strange you experience these problems so frequently. If you're using a KVM switch, USB hub, docking station, etc., it could increase the chances of these problems, since it seems to be some kind of timing delay that can occur where the computer sees the downstroke of a pressed shift key but never sees the upstroke. More than likely it's related to the firmware since it's something that's been reported over several years, although we've never really been able to consistently reproduce it here at Kinesis. The current firmware was designed by a third party who have since went out of business which is why we haven't been able to update it. However the new electronics will be our own and very early prototypes show this will not be a problem.

Send me an email (tech@kinesis.com) and I can save your info and possibly add you to a list of beta testers of the new electronics when they become available in 2013, if you're interested. We may be interested in your feedback since you experience these problems so frequently which isn't typical.

Offline wasabah

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Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
« Reply #12 on: Thu, 27 December 2012, 01:10:04 »
Really interested in the next version of Contoured keyboard - do you have a rough idea when you might introduce it?
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Offline natas206

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Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
« Reply #13 on: Fri, 04 January 2013, 10:40:15 »
Really interested in the next version of Contoured keyboard - do you have a rough idea when you might introduce it?

If everything goes as planned, this year.

Offline TotalChaos

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Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
« Reply #14 on: Fri, 11 January 2013, 22:13:22 »
Please share any thoughts and ideas of what you would like to see for the next version of Contoured keyboard.
I want a keyboard more or less like the Kinesis Advantage except flat with Cherry Red switches and works on PS/2.

You could add some extra keys to the middle too if u wanted.
You could add some extra keys to the thumb area too if u wanted.

It does not hurt to have some spare extra keys on the keyboard that the user can define as desired.


If you would have allowed me to buy a flat Kinesis Advantage with Cherry Red switches that works on PS/2 I would have already bought 3 of them a few months ago.

Instead I am being forced to spend thousands of $$$ on all sorts of different keyboards.

I have no problem with the pricing of your current Kinesis Advantage.
And your return policy is super duper nice.

But I honestly just don't think that crazy keywell shape is for me.  I have severe horrifically bad handpain problems but I have never ever craved or wanted a keyboard shaped like that.

I especially do not want to be tempted to lay my wrist on that high point of the keyboard.  That is incredibly unhealthy and directly causes RSI, Tendonitis, CTS and other horrible problems.  I like my normal flat cherry red keyboards.  There is no temptation to lay my wrist on anything.

Also I don't think my soft crashpads would work in the crazy shaped kinesis advantage.  I need a flat keyboard for that.

I need a keyboard that lets me SHIFT with my thumbs.

I would not mind SHIFTing with my feet from time to time.

If I bought a Kinesis I am sure I would buy the super deluxe version with everything.

I could have bought a Kinesis Advantage "for the hell of it".  "Just to give it a try."  And to show my support of your company because it seems like u r at least trying. (which is a lot more than I can say for most keyboard companies)  But I really really really do not think it will work out for me.

For the time being I am being forced to buy WASD keyboards or Filcos because they let me buy a flat keyboard compatible with crashpads, compatible with PS/2 with Red switches.

I am researching different substances to glue on top of my keycaps to have a healthier, softer, less violent, less painful keyboard experience.  But I don't have much useful to report on that other than 10A rubber is way too hard.

I do not require Red switches.  I would rather have a switch more intelligently designed than Red.  Its not so hard to do if you have money.  But among these simplistic, primitive antiergonomic switch choices presented by Cherry, Alps and Matias, Cherry Red wins.  But a better switch could be 100x better.

Whatever new keyboard you come out with, if it is rigged to not work on PS/2 then I won't buy it.
Rosewill RK-9000RE #1 (Broke on day 26, fixed with Scotch Tape on day 42, barely holding together)
Rosewill RK-9000RE #2 (Lubed, still in the box.  I am afraid to use it because it will break like the first one)

Offline TotalChaos

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Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
« Reply #15 on: Sat, 12 January 2013, 22:03:54 »
Please share any thoughts and ideas of what you would like to see for the next version of Contoured keyboard.
I want a keyboard more or less like the Kinesis Advantage except flat with Cherry Red switches and works on PS/2.

You could add some extra keys to the middle too if u wanted.
You could add some extra keys to the thumb area too if u wanted.

It does not hurt to have some spare extra keys on the keyboard that the user can define as desired.


If you would have allowed me to buy a flat Kinesis Advantage with Cherry Red switches that works on PS/2 I would have already bought 3 of them a few months ago.

Instead I am being forced to spend thousands of $$$ on all sorts of different keyboards.

I have no problem with the pricing of your current Kinesis Advantage.
And your return policy is super duper nice.

But I honestly just don't think that crazy keywell shape is for me.  I have severe horrifically bad handpain problems but I have never ever craved or wanted a keyboard shaped like that.

I especially do not want to be tempted to lay my wrist on that high point of the keyboard.  That is incredibly unhealthy and directly causes RSI, Tendonitis, CTS and other horrible problems.  I like my normal flat cherry red keyboards.  There is no temptation to lay my wrist on anything.

Also I don't think my soft crashpads would work in the crazy shaped kinesis advantage.  I need a flat keyboard for that.

I need a keyboard that lets me SHIFT with my thumbs.

I would not mind SHIFTing with my feet from time to time.

If I bought a Kinesis I am sure I would buy the super deluxe version with everything.

I could have bought a Kinesis Advantage "for the hell of it".  "Just to give it a try."  And to show my support of your company because it seems like u r at least trying. (which is a lot more than I can say for most keyboard companies)  But I really really really do not think it will work out for me.

For the time being I am being forced to buy WASD keyboards or Filcos because they let me buy a flat keyboard compatible with crashpads, compatible with PS/2 with Red switches.

I am researching different substances to glue on top of my keycaps to have a healthier, softer, less violent, less painful keyboard experience.  But I don't have much useful to report on that other than 10A rubber is way too hard.

I do not require Red switches.  I would rather have a switch more intelligently designed than Red.  Its not so hard to do if you have money.  But among these simplistic, primitive antiergonomic switch choices presented by Cherry, Alps and Matias, Cherry Red wins.  But a better switch could be 100x better.

Whatever new keyboard you come out with, if it is rigged to not work on PS/2 then I won't buy it.

And real Cherry Red Function keys.  Doesn't matter too much where the keys are as long as they really exist without having to press Fn key and don't hurt my fingers to press them.

And preferably all-keycaps-same-profile.  None of this nonsense OEM screwball profile keycaps.  You are a real keyboard company so act like it.

And try not to waste a ton of deskspace.  The keyboard should be exactly as big as it needs to be and no bigger.

I don't care if the keyboard is split or not.  I will buy it either way as long as it works on PS/2.

Rosewill RK-9000RE #1 (Broke on day 26, fixed with Scotch Tape on day 42, barely holding together)
Rosewill RK-9000RE #2 (Lubed, still in the box.  I am afraid to use it because it will break like the first one)

Offline natas206

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Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
« Reply #16 on: Mon, 14 January 2013, 13:11:02 »
Thanks for the input TotalChaos. I would say you should try a Contoured keyboard before making some of those conclusions. Lots of research has gone into our design and it's stood the test of time (20 years), so although it looks crazy it's very effective.

If you're looking for something similar but flat keep your eye on the "Ergo Dox" (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=22780.0).


Offline TotalChaos

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Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
« Reply #17 on: Tue, 15 January 2013, 03:17:27 »
Thanks for the input TotalChaos. I would say you should try a Contoured keyboard before making some of those conclusions. Lots of research has gone into our design and it's stood the test of time (20 years), so although it looks crazy it's very effective.
I think about buying one and trying it all the time.

But I can't visualize crashpads working right on those vertical keys unless I glue them into the top of each keycap.  So to try out the Kinesis Advantage requires a big committment.

Also as the pads age I assume they use their squishiness.  Since the pads would now be glued into place I can no longer replace them by themselves, I would have to throw away the whole keycap.  Unless you have some clever solution?

Does Kinesis Advantage use special keycaps?  If so how much does it cost for me to buy replacements?

Also I just noticed you said "Contoured" in your message.  Maybe we are each talking about a different keyboard?

Rosewill RK-9000RE #1 (Broke on day 26, fixed with Scotch Tape on day 42, barely holding together)
Rosewill RK-9000RE #2 (Lubed, still in the box.  I am afraid to use it because it will break like the first one)

Offline dorkvader

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Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
« Reply #18 on: Tue, 15 January 2013, 09:23:30 »
natas206 is, of course, the expert here, but I believe the kinesis contoured refers to the advantage (with keywells). The kinesis does use special keycaps, to more naturally fit the hand, but people have experimented with replacing them with "normal" ones from a kit (like from WASDkeyboards) with some success.
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=23446.msg477340#msg477340
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Offline vivalarevolución

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Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
« Reply #19 on: Tue, 15 January 2013, 20:45:32 »
natas206 is, of course, the expert here, but I believe the kinesis contoured refers to the advantage (with keywells). The kinesis does use special keycaps, to more naturally fit the hand, but people have experimented with replacing them with "normal" ones from a kit (like from WASDkeyboards) with some success.
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=23446.msg477340#msg477340

I'm currently using uniform spherical  PBT keycaps on my Kinesis Advantage. I like them better than the OEM keycaps. They have more space between each key and the heights are uniform. But that's only my experience.
 
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Offline TotalChaos

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Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
« Reply #20 on: Tue, 15 January 2013, 23:26:23 »
I love uniform height keycaps!  At least on normal keyboards.  Where did you get yours from?
Rosewill RK-9000RE #1 (Broke on day 26, fixed with Scotch Tape on day 42, barely holding together)
Rosewill RK-9000RE #2 (Lubed, still in the box.  I am afraid to use it because it will break like the first one)

Offline sordna

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Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
« Reply #21 on: Thu, 17 January 2013, 22:05:51 »
Also as the pads age I assume they use their squishiness.  Since the pads would now be glued into place I can no longer replace them by themselves, I would have to throw away the whole keycap.  Unless you have some clever solution?

You plan to glue pads on top of the keycaps? Why not use o-rings, 40A o-rings from wasdkeyboards are superb, but if you want something really squishy and soft you can try black soft-landing pads from elite keyboards. Like o-rings these go UNDER the keycaps (between keycap and switch).

Quote
Does Kinesis Advantage use special keycaps?  If so how much does it cost for me to buy replacements?

I think a set is around $40 if I'm not mistaken.

Quote
Also I just noticed you said "Contoured" in your message.  Maybe we are each talking about a different keyboard?

Contoured are all those Kinesis keyboards that have the curvy keywells (which you ought to try before ruling them out by the way).
These keyboards have had various model variations over the years, with names like Essential, Classic, Advantage, etc, but all of them are "contoured".
Kinesis Contoured Advantage LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Contoured Model 110, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, KBC Poker (Cherry MX Red), IBM Space Saving keyboard (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline TotalChaos

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Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
« Reply #22 on: Fri, 18 January 2013, 04:58:43 »
Also as the pads age I assume they use their squishiness.  Since the pads would now be glued into place I can no longer replace them by themselves, I would have to throw away the whole keycap.  Unless you have some clever solution?

You plan to glue pads on top of the keycaps?
Yes that too, once I pick out 100% which material I Like best and how thick it should be.

But what I was referring to in the quoted post was the pads that go under the keys.

Right this exact second I am typing on hard plastic keys with pads underneath.  I am hoping and praying that once I have put padding on top that I can double my amount of typing per day.   But who knows... It might not make any difference.

Quote
Why not use o-rings, 40A o-rings from wasdkeyboards are superb,
For a healthy person they should keep you healthy for a long time I hope.

But they are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to hard for me.  10A O-rings would be much better.


Quote
but if you want something really squishy and soft you can try black soft-landing pads from elite keyboards. Like o-rings these go UNDER the keycaps (between keycap and switch).
Yes but they just kind of lay there.  They don't attach onto the keycap like an O-ring does.  Thus the need for gluing.

Quote
Quote
Also I just noticed you said "Contoured" in your message.  Maybe we are each talking about a different keyboard?

Contoured are all those Kinesis keyboards that have the curvy keywells (which you ought to try before ruling them out by the way).
These keyboards have had various model variations over the years, with names like Essential, Classic, Advantage, etc, but all of them are "contoured".
I have not ruled them out.  I just ruled them downwards to a lower priority. :)  For the reasons I gave.

If I ever finish all my current experiments then I might still get one for scientific experiments since they are so reasonably priced.

Thanx for your comments.
Rosewill RK-9000RE #1 (Broke on day 26, fixed with Scotch Tape on day 42, barely holding together)
Rosewill RK-9000RE #2 (Lubed, still in the box.  I am afraid to use it because it will break like the first one)

Offline sordna

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Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
« Reply #23 on: Fri, 18 January 2013, 09:31:12 »
You do not need to glue the soft-landing pads, I used them on a keyboard myself. I do try to put them rotated so their corners help "stick" to the keycap sides but that's only to make the installation a little easier, and isn't necessary. Another approach is to hold the keyboard upside down so the pad doesn't fall when you put the keycap on.
Kinesis Contoured Advantage LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Contoured Model 110, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, KBC Poker (Cherry MX Red), IBM Space Saving keyboard (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline fatmav

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Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
« Reply #24 on: Sun, 20 January 2013, 13:34:42 »
Here are my suggestions:

- At work I use the Advantage on a Mac and I often wish there are more than two modifiers in each thumb area. At present, I have to choose two out of {control, option, command} on each side.

- I think many agree that mechanical function keys are preferable to the current rubber keys. These rubber keys are just too small and too slippery.

Thanks.

Offline sordna

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Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
« Reply #25 on: Tue, 22 January 2013, 11:25:43 »
Here are my suggestions for the next Advantage keyboard:

1. More keys. It desperately needs more keys, all keyboards have more keys today than they did 20 years ago, but the contoured has stayed behind in that department. At minimum it needs keys under the shifts and keys in the thumb area (as previous posters suggested) which should be placed along side the Backspace and Enter. This will allow having 2 Alts, 2 Controls, 2 Windows (or 2 Apple Command), a Menu key and a Keypad-shift or Compose key simultaneously and easily accessible on the main layer.
Palm keys should also be considered as an option...

2. The "tenting" angle between the 2 sides should be increased. It's only about 10 degrees from horizontal, so it's basically flat. Even the Freestyle (and Goldtouch) can do more than that, and the Maltron for the last several years have a more generous angle (about 20 degrees). Making it adjustable would be even better.

3. The keyboard should be fully split, with a long/detachable cable in the middle, allowing users to achieve any placement they want (tent, chair-mount, vertical, etc). This takes care of suggestion #2 as well.

4. Rubber keys should be thrown out and replaced with something better.

5. They keywell concave shape should be somewhat reduced. It's too pronounced in my opinion, which makes hitting the number row, and especially the arrows/braces a bit uncomfortable... we are almost doing a pulling action for those bottom keys.

6. Programming should allow mapping a *momentary* keypad shift on the keyboard. Currently only a toggle is allowed on the keyboard, and only the footswitch can do this action in a momentary fashion.

7. Integrated pointing device, either touchpad, or IBM (or unicomp) style trackpoint.
« Last Edit: Tue, 22 January 2013, 11:28:47 by sordna »
Kinesis Contoured Advantage LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Contoured Model 110, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, KBC Poker (Cherry MX Red), IBM Space Saving keyboard (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline dmnd

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Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
« Reply #26 on: Thu, 24 January 2013, 03:22:08 »
I agree with a lot of the above, but here are a few extra suggestions:
  • The keyboard firmware should be open source and on github, and receptive to contributions. I should be able to patch the firmware myself and flash my microcontroller. Your customers have the skills to add a lot of good features to your nice hardware. This should take care of a lot of feature requests for free. If you're skeptical, read about the WRT54G router. And watch out for ErgoDox and its descendants.
  • If you're going to make the keyboard split, make the left side possible to use without the right side. This allows you to have a nice setup for gaming. It's a shame that the ErgoDox controller is in the right side because most people use a mouse in their right hand. You might even broaden the market if you sell the left piece by itself as a gaming device!
  • The keyboard is currently quite tall, especially in the center. It makes it hard to use with keyboard drawers. Please make a design that uses minimal space.
  • Keep the underside flat. Making it curved doesn't save me any space - it just makes the keyboard unstable if the front feet pass the edge of my desk. 99% of the time the feet keep it stable, but there's no reason to not gracefully handle them not being present.
  • Consider using a handrest material similar to the Microsoft Ergo 4000. That stuff feels so nice.
  • If you're going to add a trackpad, get it right. Take inspiration from the Apple one. I'd stay away from this though, and just focus on making a great keyboard that doesn't take up much space so customers can use their preferred pointing device.
  • Don't worry about using standard keycaps. Instead allow people to buy replacement sets with custom layouts/colours. That should help increase your profit per customer.
  • While you're thinking about broadening your market, I recommend modernizing your website. Consider sponsoring some pro gamers (StarCraft, Dota, LOL, etc)

Some of that got a bit unrelated to the Advantage but I hope it is still helpful. Here's a few obvious ones mentioned by others I want to re-emphasize:
  • More buttons; palm button(s) like sordna. I need more modifiers and keys in general. Especially in the space to the right of space and to the left of backspace. My thumb comfortably curls inward!
  • More flexible manufacturing process so customer can choose options like blank keycaps or different switches
  • Please get rid of the rubber keys
« Last Edit: Thu, 24 January 2013, 03:39:09 by dmnd »

Offline sordna

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Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
« Reply #27 on: Thu, 24 January 2013, 17:10:27 »
Welcome to GH dmnd! First post and a good one!
Open source keyboard firmware? Now that's a GREAT idea. Heck, the new Advantage could even use a teensy like the ErgoDox does, it's just $16 retail. Good analogy about routers, I recently got a new router BECAUSE it supported open source firmware (openwrt). Companies like Buffalo and Netgear not only support this, but even make it a selling point.
I think you're right, this would both help sales, and reduce feature development costs.

Kinesis, what do you think about that?
Kinesis Contoured Advantage LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Contoured Model 110, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, KBC Poker (Cherry MX Red), IBM Space Saving keyboard (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline yensteel

  • Posts: 12
Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
« Reply #28 on: Thu, 07 February 2013, 10:52:08 »
As a user of the Kinesis Freestyle 2 for Mac, I really enjoyed the mac special key compatibility. It works much better than software options, which have issues.

I don't think that it's necessary for the Advantage to have a mac version, but I think it will be great if it can remap Mac special function keys like brightness control and expose.

Offline cweimann

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Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
« Reply #29 on: Mon, 18 February 2013, 17:41:18 »
#1 Full split meaning I want two separate pieces like the Freestyle.  The long cord option between the halves, like the freestyle, is important.

Rather than doing the long fixed cord a good idea may be to make the two halves independent keyboards each with their own USB cable.  Stick a USB hub in each half and you can plug them together if you want or run each back the PC or a USB Hub.   With this arrangement the end user can come up with any crazy arrangement they want since they can use any length USB cable they want for each hand.   I would expect the drawback to this being the higher expense of electronics in each half.

#2 See item #1

#3 See item #1

#4 See item #1

Offline vatin

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Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
« Reply #30 on: Mon, 18 February 2013, 18:24:53 »
As a daily user of the Advantage, here's my wish list.

- True split design.
- Mechanical keys instead of shameful rubber keys, or make it as embeded layers. Please this is the first priority.
- Application for easy programming and exchange of profiles.
- option for pbt or dyesub keycaps.
- Trackpoint
Ergodox EZ MX red
Ergodox Infinity MX red

Offline Announ

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Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
« Reply #31 on: Wed, 20 February 2013, 04:23:37 »
NKRO.

Offline sordna

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Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
« Reply #32 on: Wed, 20 February 2013, 09:04:50 »
NKRO.

How many keys do you honestly need to hold down at the same time, and what keys are they? The keyboard can handle 6 keys plus modifiers (ctrl/alt/shift) so I'm trying to understand what is the scenario that needs more than 8-9 keys ??
Kinesis Contoured Advantage LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Contoured Model 110, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, KBC Poker (Cherry MX Red), IBM Space Saving keyboard (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline Announ

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Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
« Reply #33 on: Wed, 20 February 2013, 10:18:12 »
How many keys do you honestly need to hold down at the same time, and what keys are they? The keyboard can handle 6 keys plus modifiers (ctrl/alt/shift) so I'm trying to understand what is the scenario that needs more than 8-9 keys ??
I play various rhythm games which require pressing more than 6 non-modifier keys at once.
I would be mostly happy with 8KRO for O2Jam, DJMAX and beatmania IIDX simulators; but only 10KRO or higher would cover all my needs (Pump It Up's Double mode).
I am also very interested in stenography, which requires a NKRO-capable keyboard.

Offline TotalChaos

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Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
« Reply #34 on: Wed, 20 February 2013, 11:21:06 »
NKRO is higher quality than not NKRO.  Ppl have a right to a quality keyboard if they want.

There are endless amounts of free retro video games available that need more than 6kro.  6kro keyboards at retro gaming parties are not thought of as "6kro".  Nobody at a party cares why the keyboard doesn't work.  They just say "The POS keyboard doesn't work!".  Its VERY annoying to try to play a game on a keyboard and it keeps screwing up.  I am sure Announ has experienced the same sorts of reactions.
Rosewill RK-9000RE #1 (Broke on day 26, fixed with Scotch Tape on day 42, barely holding together)
Rosewill RK-9000RE #2 (Lubed, still in the box.  I am afraid to use it because it will break like the first one)

Offline sordna

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Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
« Reply #35 on: Wed, 20 February 2013, 12:20:19 »
While "endless free retro games require more than 6KRO" is an gross exaggeration (let's not forget most keyboards are not even 6KRO but 2KRO) I agree that supporting NKRO with a passive PS/2 adapter like Filco and other keyboards do would be great.
Note that the typical NKRO test that is advertised all over the Internet (hold-down-both-shifts-and-type-the-quick-brown-fox-jumps-over-the-lazy-dog) passes fine with 6KRO... most people, including the average gamer and even some keyboard companies, consider anything over 2KRO to be NKRO.

I am skeptical about NKRO over USB because it is associated with one ore more of these issues:
- Problems with OSX or Linux
- Ugly hacks like the keyboard presenting itself like 3 devices to the computer
- Issues with KVMs
- Issues with USB v1 ports
- Special drivers needed

So unless ALL of the above issues are 100% absent, I would prefer 6KRO (with NKRO via PS/2 adapter) rather than NKRO over USB.
A non-gaming keyboard should not sacrifice universal compatibility for an extreme gaming feature.
I think 18-KRO over USB like Leopold and other keyboards do, is the best compromise, and there is NO WAY you will need to hold down more than 18 keys simultaneously, even with 2 players playing an extreme music game on the same keyboard simultaneously :-)
Kinesis Contoured Advantage LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Contoured Model 110, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, KBC Poker (Cherry MX Red), IBM Space Saving keyboard (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline TotalChaos

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Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
« Reply #36 on: Wed, 20 February 2013, 13:56:12 »
While "endless free retro games require more than 6KRO" is an gross exaggeration
I just meant that there are more of them than you will ever play in your lifetime.  There may only be 300 of them, I don't know the exact number.  I haven't played them all and I never will.  Out of 40,000 retro games a finite number of them have multiple simultaneous players on the keyboard option.



Quote
(let's not forget most keyboards are not even 6KRO but 2KRO)
You are saying Commodore 64s had 2kro keyboards?  And they just used some sort of trick?

You are saying Amiga keyboards are 2kro?  That just cannot be possible.


Quote
I agree that supporting NKRO with a passive PS/2 adapter like Filco and other keyboards do would be great.
Yes.  It is the only intelligent solution.

Or if for some technical reason it cannot be done by your engineer, then just make the keyboard as PS/2.  Then sell a real adapter like the ones that are all over the net for $10.00 that connect PS/2 keyboards and mice to a USB port.


Quote
Note that the typical NKRO test that is advertised all over the Internet (hold-down-both-shifts-and-type-the-quick-brown-fox-jumps-over-the-lazy-dog) passes fine with 6KRO... most people, including the average gamer and even some keyboard companies, consider anything over 2KRO to be NKRO.
Is someone selling a 3kro keyboard and advertising it as NKRO?

Quote
I am skeptical about NKRO over USB because it is associated with one ore more of these issues:
- Problems with OSX or Linux
- Ugly hacks like the keyboard presenting itself like 3 devices to the computer
- Issues with KVMs
- Issues with USB v1 ports
- Special drivers needed
This is why USB 1.1 was obsolete since 1990 as far as keyboards and mice are concerned.  Maybe USB 1.1 was great for cameras and MP3 players but not for keyboards.

Quote
So unless ALL of the above issues are 100% absent, I would prefer 6KRO (with NKRO via PS/2 adapter) rather than NKRO over USB
The only workable way to get NKRO over USB is to throw USB 1.1 in the garbage where it belongs since 1990 and use USB 3.0, or at least USB2.0.
I am not advocating anyone to do this.  I am just saying giving information.  I only use PS/2 keyboards and mice since they don't even have the issues you mentioned.

Quote
A non-gaming keyboard should not sacrifice universal compatibility for an extreme gaming feature.
An NKRO keyboard has no drawbacks.
All PS/2 NKRO keyboards have universal compatiblity.  They work on everything.


Quote
I think 18-KRO over USB like Leopold and other keyboards do,
Doesn't it represent itself as more than 1 keyboard?  How does it get 18kro over USB 1.1?



Quote
... there is NO WAY you will need to hold down more than 18 keys simultaneously, even with 2 players playing an extreme music game on the same keyboard simultaneously :-)
Just so u know.... there are old games that let 3 ppl play on keyboard simultaneously. :)
Rosewill RK-9000RE #1 (Broke on day 26, fixed with Scotch Tape on day 42, barely holding together)
Rosewill RK-9000RE #2 (Lubed, still in the box.  I am afraid to use it because it will break like the first one)

Offline natas206

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Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
« Reply #37 on: Wed, 20 February 2013, 14:24:23 »
How many people use the Contoured keyboard for retro gaming parties? :)

It wouldn't be ideal at all to use an ergonomic keyboard like the Contoured for two or three player games.

Offline pierats

  • Posts: 1
Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
« Reply #38 on: Thu, 21 February 2013, 10:45:07 »
I second many of the previously suggested items (like real mechanical switches instead of the rubber function keys) however I have a few additional suggestions:

1. the arrow keys - can we please have a set of "real" arrow keys that can be operated by one hand? 
2. optionally, an onboard modifier key to switch the keypad on momentarily so that it can be used as arrow keys
3. additional thumb keys - like some of the mods I've seen on this site - this would allow easier multi key actions (like alt-tab)

Once you have a good list of features, I wonder if it would be helpful to create a poll to allow users to vote on the features they would most like to see in the new product?
Kinesis Advantage - black w/o-ring mod, Kinesis Advantage - white w/o-ring mod, IBM model M (PS/2)

Offline natas206

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Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
« Reply #39 on: Thu, 21 February 2013, 11:19:00 »
That may be a good idea pierats.

I will say a number of the things mentioned in this thread we've already been planning on implementing. It's a little premature to say what exactly, but I'll let everyone know as soon as I can.

Offline TotalChaos

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Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
« Reply #40 on: Thu, 21 February 2013, 11:35:05 »
If you make it good enough then I will buy one.  After testing it, if I really love it then I will have to buy 2 or 3 of them plus advertise them to all my friends, relatives and customers.

If you don't make it good enough then I won't buy one, simple as that. :)
Rosewill RK-9000RE #1 (Broke on day 26, fixed with Scotch Tape on day 42, barely holding together)
Rosewill RK-9000RE #2 (Lubed, still in the box.  I am afraid to use it because it will break like the first one)

Offline eviltobz

  • Posts: 98
Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
« Reply #41 on: Fri, 22 February 2013, 18:13:08 »
1. the arrow keys - can we please have a set of "real" arrow keys that can be operated by one hand? 
2. optionally, an onboard modifier key to switch the keypad on momentarily so that it can be used as arrow keys
1 - with the reprogrammability of the board i moved the bracket keys over to the left, and have all 4 cursors clustered on the right, i was even able to swap caps to support this. I set it up in the vim style < v ^ > but that doesn't feel as natural without the index finger on down, so i may swap it to ^ v < > in the future.

2 - yup, and the ability to remap the location of the keypad button - having it all the way up where it is means that i _never_ use mine, so all those extra characters i could type or whatnot are sadly lost to me :(

note - i've got an old classic model that I scored on ebay a few weeks back so I don't know if things have changed with the programming capabilities on newer versions.

i was interested in the integrated dvorak switching when i got mine. i'm learning colemak, but i thought i could remap the dvorak layer, then be able to switch back and forth with qwerty at will, so other people could use my machine without too many problems, but switching between the modes just does a fixed set of remappings, so wiped out changes that i'd made :(

yeah, the F-key row is evil and must be killed. i'm not bothered by having a few of them cheap and nasty buttons for very occasional things like remapping, but good F-keys which are in decently touch-typish positions are a must. As a windows programmer i need to reach for F5 or F12 all the time and they're in very odd places.

a few more normal keys would also be a good thing, check out the ergodox with an extra key for the little finger, and 3 additional keys for the index finger to reach for past the normal letter keys. Some of the rubbish that's cluttering up the default positions on the thumb clusters could move to them - home/end & page up/down are wasting valuable prime space there, thumbs are great for space, enter and backspace, maybe delete, but then it's all about modifiers. i have my shift keys pulled in there along with the ctrls & alts, i'd like to get the windows keys in there too, and the aforementioned, improved layer stuff.

Following on from the shift thing, when i first looked at exactly which keys go where, my thoughts went something like:
*why the hell aren't there shifts on the thumbs
*why the frack have they got the backspace & delete buttons, and the space & enter buttons the wrong way round. all those thumb buttons you want the home position to be in the middle for quick access. And they've even created proper home locators for your thumbs with the slanty buttons, so why oh why are they labelled back to front?

i think that having the entire set of home keys being a different profile for easy locatoring (including the thumbs, even if you have em labelled wrong) is a master stroke. way better than a little blip on f/j, but i do like the idea of everything being the same standard to aid with moving things around. I'm sure that the number of people in the world who want to set up their keyboard in a non-standard manner is tiny, but when you are creating such an outlandish monster, with such a high price tag, and such good programability I'm sure that it flips things on their head, so most of your customers are going to want to be able to fiddle a lot. As you control the plate, it'd be better if switch heights could be determined by that so they're more moveable. it's a definite nuisance having a key marked ctrl very close to the key that actually is ctrl, but due to the caps having different heights I'm not able to swap them.

I love my kinesis, but i have ordered a full ergodox kit and the bulk of the bits to create a second one, so i'm not sure that i'll be likely to pick up a new board from you guys, but i'd hope that my input has some value. I've started designing my ideal layout on the massdrop configurator page, so if you have an account with em you might be able to see my thoughts here: https://www.massdrop.com/ext/ergodox/?referer=5MP8XY&hash=2ff2682584ec1df5f6cd3e6a89568800
« Last Edit: Fri, 22 February 2013, 18:30:22 by eviltobz »

Offline Findecanor

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  • Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
« Reply #42 on: Fri, 22 February 2013, 19:04:44 »
Yes, the layout editor on Massdrop is very good. I wish that there was something similar for the Kinesis. If you program it only on the keyboard itself, you don't have as much overview and there is a higher chance of getting lost.

I also miss the ability to have multiple layers on the Kinesis and being able to dedicate a key to being a layer toggle.

I would also like to be able to map a key to a code for which there wasn't already a dedicated key to begin with, for instance make a key into a media key.

Something that I would like personally would be to be able to map a modified key to Alt when I press Tab but to Ctrl when I press X, C or V... but that might be overkill. ;)
Daily driver: Phantom (Lubed Cherry MX Clear, Lasered Cherry PBT keycaps with Row A. Plastic "Frankencase". Custom firmware, Swedish layout)
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society."

Offline vatin

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Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
« Reply #43 on: Sat, 06 April 2013, 04:11:12 »
*delete*
« Last Edit: Sat, 06 April 2013, 04:35:28 by vatin »
Ergodox EZ MX red
Ergodox Infinity MX red

Offline islisis

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Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
« Reply #44 on: Sat, 13 April 2013, 05:19:16 »
A bit late to this party, but I think sordna's points are very good.

To me the most important are:

- Inward tenting of the thumbwells, to allow for flexion/radial thumb activation. Research is required, but I think extended key holds lead to dangerous tendon problems at the current angle

- Keys next to backspace/space would accomodate thumb-shifting

- Left hand trackpoint next to g or t, 'click'able. Perhaps mirrored internal mounts to allow changing to right hand side, with some simple modding

- Mirrored mouse buttons next to home/end, pgup/dn. Mirrored is to allow one and two hand operation. 3-4 buttons in L shape

- Clickable scrollwheel below trackpoint

- Lower profile and increased outward tenting for each side

- A sensor on each side to detect whether the keyboard is being used one or two handed, to invoke layer for mouse keys etc.

- Mod consideration? Allow room under center space for wireless charging panel - also make the case flat here to place our phones

- Lower force tactile keys (if only Cherry could make them...)

- Finally, a PR campaign to compare ergonomics with touchscreens :/ We are losing the fight very badly

Well, in V3 perhaps ;) Good luck with the release!
« Last Edit: Mon, 24 November 2014, 20:51:47 by islisis »

Offline davkol

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Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
« Reply #45 on: Wed, 17 April 2013, 07:16:02 »
BTW some sort of compatibility with rollermice would be nice.

Offline automator

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Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
« Reply #46 on: Sat, 20 April 2013, 23:27:40 »

An update would be very welcome.
Priorities for me, I would defiantly be willing to pay a premium for these features:
1.True split design!!!
2.Extra keys (for index fingers, like ergodox, for macros etc, and extra thumb buttons).
3.Wireless option (bluetooth, both sides independently wireless)

Nice to haves:
Normal keys for function keys... or at least improve the design, these always seem to be the first to show wear and break for me.
Blank keycaps

Random ideas/thoughts
*Adjustable thumbkey module position / angle (i've never really felt like I needed that, but just seems like a cool idea...)
*All my problems come from using the pinky in any lateral movement or resistance so this is why I'm interested having more thumb keys and keys on the inside to map.
*Offer a bag or case
* Hacker-friendly platform, eg modular design, blank keycaps, open firmware (or just, replaceable), maybe have a hacker edition available, or accommodating custom orders (diff switches, cap labels, etc)
* Could portability be a factor in design? obviously, so long as it doesn't take away from feel/function.


Offline mannelig

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Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
« Reply #47 on: Sun, 21 April 2013, 05:26:37 »
1) Integrated trackpoint or trackball or scrollwheel at least. Kinesis is so good what I don't to take my hands off it.
2) More keys (two below Shift buttons, more at thumb clusters, below palm maybe).
3) MX keys instead of rubber F-row (not top priority).
4) True split would be interesting.
+ maybe even some place in the right end of the keyboard to insert some keys for Cyrillic users?
Kinesis Advantage review in Russian:
http://habrahabr.ru/post/146353/

Offline vvp

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Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
« Reply #48 on: Mon, 22 April 2013, 13:53:12 »
I'm kinesys advantage user for almost 10 years now. Here is my wish list:

1) thumb clusters horizontally moved do the keyboard sides by half a key
2) top row thumb cluster keys (Alts, Ctrls) moved by another half to the sides (so the center of the keys will be just above the boundary of the keys below)
3) make 1x2 thumb cluster keys only 1x1.5 and leave them aligned to the top (this makes it PgDown/End keys overhang by 0.5 down - it is good since it is easier to hit them without hitting Etner/Delete too)
4) add at least one more column of 3 keys (1x1 size) to the middle side of both hand wells (similar as ErgoDox but 1x1 size only) put them down as much as possible so that they do not collide with the thumb clusters)
5) add the very bottom keys for pinkies
6) get rid of the rubber keys completely (maybe support more than one layer to reach them); the point is that (except the very first one on the left side and the very last one on the right side) they are almost impossible to hit accurately without looking; or you can keep them but they are almost useless :)
7) keep remap and macros (in addition to adding more layers)
8) support mouse keys (let keyboard present to the OS as both mouse and keyboard)
9) allow writing macros with define-able timing delays between keys (mouse events) being sent
10) make firmware open (so that we can modify it if we do not like something) or at least use some very common controller (like atmel avr) and provide space for ICSP so that we can soldier the header in and replace the firmware (if you think there there is so much IP in a simple keyboard firmware that you cannot make it open from the beginning)

If you do all of this I'm sure to buy one ... if you do it before I make one for myself :)

Offline ElectronicFur

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Re: Suggestions for Advantage keyboard
« Reply #49 on: Tue, 23 April 2013, 02:14:31 »
I've only had my Advantage for a short while, so not long enough to contribute too many observations, especially as I've also switched to Colemak 100% on the keyboard. So still finding my way.

The major thing for me is the position of the thumb clusters. For me also they should be moved horizontally to the keyboard sides by half a key at least. At the moment I home my thumbs on the Backspace and Space keys as Delete and Enter are too far.

Some of the things already mentioned by others that appeal to me are updatable/open firmware, and a split design and another column of keys like Ergodox.

Lastly, get rid of the ugly off-centred logo. It looks naff. I'd prefer no logo at all, but if your marketing department insists then just have the Kinesis logo discretely in the centre. To have such a cool looking keyboard on my desk, and then have it spoiled with this off-centred Advantage Pro logo bugs me every time I look at it  :mad: I might have to stick something over it  ;D

Kinesis Advantage Pro (silver) | Kinesis Advantage (black) | Microsoft Natural Elite | Ergodox (on order)