Newbie with some questions about kinesis advantage

[ergonaut]

Hello,

I'm new here and I registered because I'm very interested in keyboards and keyboarding in general and ergonomic keyboards, layouts and the Kinesis Advantage in particular. I've already read a lot here and have to say that GH is a very deep source of information − kudos to all the contributors.

Now, let's talk about the Kinesis advantage.

I've never tried one, but from looking at pictures and reading about it a lot, I'm fairly convinced that it might be just the right keyboard for me. But there are still some unsolved issues for me.

1. While I'm generally pretty convinced that the Advantage is one of the most ergonomic keyboards money can (easily) buy, I'm still a little bit sceptical about the thumb key setup. Somehow it seems to me that the thumb keys are a little too high in relation to the palm and finger position, and that a bit of potential was wasted by not having any thumb keys further inwards (i.e. further to the pinkies of each hand). What do you (experienced users) think about that?

2. I'm using an alternative layout with several layers, and I'm wondering how programmable the Kinesis is exactly − to what extent can I reprogram the keys, how easy/hard is it? What is the limit to layering shenanigans?

3. Given my financial situation, I'm a bit reluctant to buy one new, especially because I'm in located in Europe and would have to pay a lot of €€€ for shipping, taxes and customs. But that kinda rules out getting the new Advantage2 − any second hand offerings would obviously be the older model. I think I could live with the rubber F-Keys, but what else are the differences between Mk1 and Mk2?

4. I've read somewhere about compatibility issues with USB3 (?) under certain Windows versions as well as some kind of bug with caps lock (both on the old version I think). Could anyone elaborate on these?


I'm looking forward to your answers, and I'm glad I finally registered.

[davkol]

There are several European vendors (listed at Kinesis' website), that sell the Advantage 2 for about €370, i.e., you don't have to import it overseas. You can check them out for a trial.

[highend]

E.g. in Germany and depending on the layout you have to pay ~463 € (389 € + 19%)...
https://www.ergotrading.eu/produkte/tastatur-und-maus/tastaturen

[adreamer]

Thumb keys are indeed higher. I get occasional mild strain on the right thumb finger. I was hoping that they would address this in Advantage 2, but looks like Kinesis thinks this is in "correct" position. There was a post by some other user (a while ago) using a longer set of screws to "bring down" the thumb keys. If anyone remembers that post, please do link it. I also want to try that out.

---

Since you are in Europe(?), you can try/rent Maltron (though might be more expensive depending on new/used). That "looks" like a better thumb setup.

[Findecanor]

I think I could live with the rubber F-Keys, but what else are the differences between Mk1 and Mk2?

The firmware is the big difference. The Advantage 2 is more programmable. It supports multiple layers while the Advantage doesn't.
The problems with USB3.0 on Windows 7, Caps Lock etc. are also fixed.

If you are in Stockholm, I could let you try mine out.

[ergonaut]

Hey,

thank you all for your helpful answers!

I spent the last days thinking about it all and doing further research.

First of all, regarding the Maltron: in terms of ergonomics, it looks a little better to me than the Kinesis − I found some photos on GH that compared the two, and the Maltron looked a little nicer overall. However, there were some comments that the Maltron's thumb clusters are actually too angled and that some of their keys require a hyperextension of the thumbs. All of this information is probably moot though, because I guess it all depends on your hands. Price-wise, the Maltron has quite a sticker-shock attached to it, but seeing how expensive a new Kinesis is here in Europe, it's not that much worse. But I do wonder about the programmability of the Maltron (haven't found out anything about that yet) as well as the choice (if there is a choice) of switches − apparently, Maltron used to use Cherry MX blacks, and I'd strongly prefer the lighter touch of the browns or reds that Kinesis uses.

I also further researched the programmability of the Kinesis.
Since price is really an issue for me, I'd still strongly prefer the option of getting a used Kinesis Mk1. Findecanor mentioned that it doesn't support multiple layers. I wondered what can actually be programmed, and somewhere I found a description of the programming process. It said that to program it, you have to press the source key first, followed by the target key. I'm using the neo2 layout on Linux (home) and Windows 10 (work). That layout basically expects that you use a standard keyboard with the german ISO layout. If I could freely program anything, that wouldn't be an issue, but if I can only use the keys that are already on the keyboard, I wonder if and how that would work together − for example, in neo2 you have to press the 'ö'-key to produce a 'd', but a Kinesis with the US-layout (which the ones on the 2nd hand market usually have) doesn't have the 'ö'-key. Or am I mistaken, and it's not about the actual characters but about the positions of the keys? I really don't know what's going on behind the scenes, so to speak.

Any information would be much appreciated.

Oh, and thanks for your generous offer, Findecanor − I'm in Berlin however, and won't be near Stockholm anytime soon.

[tp4tissue]

Definitely go try this first..


IMHO, the tenting on these maltron keyboards are not steep enough to truly make the wrist comfortable..

It's around 15-25 degrees..


The neutral Resting angle of the wrist is around 70 degrees..

The ergodox can accomodate up to ~ 50-55 degrees with long bolts..



And the one piece design is not very flexible, because everyone has different shoulder widths, and it's not one size fits all.

[ergonaut]

Yeah, I would prefer steeper tenting as well. The tenting on my current keyboard (MS sculpt ergo) seems similar, and it is just enough, but more would be better. That said, there are other reasons I don't want to go with the ErgoDox.

[jleechpe]

I have a Kinesis Classic so can speak to what it can/cannot do.  I'm considering a Kinesis Advantage 2 (for at work) or an Ergo Infinity (although I'd have to wait for the next drop).

To answer a few questions based on my experience:

1. While I'm generally pretty convinced that the Advantage is one of the most ergonomic keyboards money can (easily) buy, I'm still a little bit sceptical about the thumb key setup. Somehow it seems to me that the thumb keys are a little too high in relation to the palm and finger position, and that a bit of potential was wasted by not having any thumb keys further inwards (i.e. further to the pinkies of each hand). What do you (experienced users) think about that?

I hadn't ever thought about them being too high however now that I do they might be a little so.  I have the palm pads attached and tend to have my palms touching it (even though that isn't ideal).  With my palms resting it might be a little high (I can feel where it would strain just slightly).  Lifting my palms for better posture impacts my typing (since I have to re-adjust but that's just muscle memory) but removes the strain.

It said that to program it, you have to press the source key first, followed by the target key.

You have to set the keyboard into remap mode and then you can remap the keys one at a time.  It allows for 2 layers (and only one layout), but the second layer is accessed through the keypad toggle.  I'm not entirely sure how to access this toggle without a footswitch.  If you remap the entire right hand side you'll end up with no numeric keypad (which depending on your use of it will impact whether it's worth it or not).

[ergonaut]

I bought a used Advantage. It should ship before New Year's. I figured I can always sell it at little to no loss if I don't like it.

Thanks again for all the input. I'll let you know how I like it as soon as I have some experience with it.

Happy holidays everyone!

[Yotaka]

What I feel to kinesis is so close to what you felt.
I think it s a perfect Ergonomics keyboard to me base on the hands position,
and the beautiful curve where hands put on. Even though I have nver try it yet.

What I like it most is that the curve for hands to put on, perfect angle. 
And I don't need to move my left hand or right hand, my thumbs will have more work,
but I think it s a balance that the natural typing position it suppose to be.
In the standard keyboard, other four fingers have lots work while our thumb are quite free in most time.

One thing I wonder to this keyboard is just how many times will it  take to get used to.

[vvp]

One thing I wonder to this keyboard is just how many times will it  take to get used to.

It took me about two weeks with about an hour of training in the evenings. After the first week I took it also to my  workplace.

[ergonaut]

I've had the KA for a few days now, including two work days. My impressions so far:

− It's slightly smaller and a lot lighter than I had expected. Both are good news, because I transport it in my backpack to work and back.

− The key action feels very good. I haven't used a real mechanical keyboard in years and it's good to be back! The Cherry browns are just what I wanted, with a light touch, subtle tactile bump and an audible but unobtrusive sound. I know they aren't universally liked here and I don't have much that I could compare them to, but I really like them.

− The contoured keywells feel really excellent and fit my fingers very well. The outer keys on the number row are a little harder to reach than on flat keyboards, but that doesn't matter to me because I rarely use them; I strongly prefer using the numpad on layer 4 of the neo layout. The extra bottom row is nice and very easy to reach, but I haven't yet decided on what to put there.

− While it takes some time getting used to it, I really really like the columnar layout. Horizontal staggering is obsolete anti-ergonomic bull**** and should have been abandoned decades ago. This feels so much better!

− Like I expected, the thumb keys are indeed a little too high for my taste, but I think I can live with that. I might try out lowering them like adreamer suggested. I found a description of that modification here: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=45635.0.

− The one thing I really don't like about this board is that the thumb clusters are too far away. When I just let my thumbs fall naturally on the keyboard, they are basically on the inner edge of the innermost thumb keys (space and backspace on the original Kinesis layout). That makes it hard to reach the other thumb keys. The middle ones (delete/enter) are ok, the lower corner keys (end/pgdown) are awkward to reach without moving my entire hand, and all other thumb keys can't be reached at all without moving the hand. That's quite disappointing to me; if they'd put the thumb clusters a little more towards me and towards the outer edges, they'd be much more comfortable to use. But even with the suboptimal placement, it's still better than having to move my hands and then hit the keys with my pinkies.

− Except for their position, I really like the thumb clusters. Having access to six keys on each thumb opens up a lot of possibilities and I really like how the different keycap heights make it possible to accurately press individual keys or to use different combos just with one thumb; especially the middle thumb keys and the two smaller keys right next to them are suitable for all kinds of combo madness

− The tenting angle feels sufficient to me, but a little more would have been even nicer. Somehow I feel that the companies building ergonomic keyboards aren't courageous enough in this regard.

− Unsurprisingly, the esc-/f-key row is really ****ty. I knew that before and don't care because I can remap esc and rarely use f-keys, but still I really wonder what the designers were thinking. Even if the keys were mechanical like on the Advantage2, their placement still makes them virtually unusable.

− One downside of the KA that I hadn't expected is that it doesn't seem possible to have a layout with AltGr and windows keys. Or maybe I just couldn't figure out how to do it yet. This isn't such a big problem when using neo (it just means not being able to lock the the fourth layer), but it would really piss me off if I would still be using the german QWERTZ, because AltGr is really important for programming with that layout and I do like having the windows keys when using windows at work. If any of you know how to have AltGr AND the win key, do speak up please

− Except for a few minutes of FTL and Open Arena, I haven't done any gaming on it yet. But so far I think that as long as the games support full customization of the keys, the KA might be very nice as a gaming keyboard. It puts more keys within easy reach than a standard keyboard, the columnar layout makes perfect sense for gaming (as it does for typing) and ergonomics are just as important for gaming as they are for typing.

− I really have to do a lot of thinking about how to adapt the neo layout to this keyboard. But that is such a complex subject that I'll write a seperate post or thread about it soon. So far, I've put shift on the middle thumb keys, mod3 on the ctrl keys, mod4 on end/pgdown, ctrl on home/pgup, enter on backspace and I swapped win and alt in order to make alt-tab more tolerable. But that is just my first experiment, I anticipate a lot of layout tinkering in the near future 


All in all, my temporary verdict after the first few days is that the KA is far from perfect, but despite its shortcomings still one of the best ergo boards on the market and definitely the best keyboard I've ever used, by far.

I'll report back as soon as I have accumulated some longer term experience.

[ergonaut]

One thing I wonder to this keyboard is just how many times will it  take to get used to.

It's too early to tell for me.  Right now, after three days, my typing is definitely slower and less accurate than before the switch, but fast enough for work. I'm doing software development though, so my typing speed is usually not the bottleneck in terms of performance. If my work depended on being a fast typist, I'd probably practice some more at home before taking it to work.

[vvp]

@ergonaut:
I moved shifts to the thumbs as you did. I also swapped Escape with Caps-lock. Yeah, the rubber keys are pretty much only a decoration. Well maybe except the ones at the very edge of the keyboard. Those can be hit quickly and reliably without looking. That means only one usable rubber key (on Advantage1) since the other one is the non-remap-able Program key.

[ergonaut]

I also swapped Escape with Caps-lock.

That seems like a good position for escape, I'll try that.

BTW, impressive work on the Katy so far. I would have considered building one if I'd had the necessary skills...

[adreamer]

Excellent impressions and thanks for the thread on customizing thumb clusters.

+1 on almost all of your views on thumb clusters. I also wish those are a bit closer. Like you, I move my entire hand to type the outer keys (pg up/down) on thumb clusters.

----

I'll try to adjust the thumb clusters and see how it goes. Wish Kinesis would create a real "Advantage 2" with better ergonomics.

[Findecanor]

The Cherry browns are just what I wanted, with a light touch, subtle tactile bump and an audible but unobtrusive sound. I know they aren't universally liked here and I don't have much that I could compare them to, but I really like them.

Personally I think they feel much better on the Kinesis specifically than on any other keyboard.

Trivia: Cherry designed the switch originally for Kinesis.' contoured keyboards.