Author Topic: [IC] The After Klaxon group buy discussion  (Read 52341 times)

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Offline BimboBB

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Re: [IC] The After Klaxon group buy discussion
« Reply #250 on: Thu, 11 April 2013, 07:46:27 »
500 sets in total means:

200 x base set
200 x modifiers
100 x numpad, iso, deutsche kit

I think these numbers should be possible.


There is no other way to have a complete ISO set than spreading these high costs for tooling on as many shoulders as possible. 7bit's Round4 worked the same principle.

Offline jdcarpe

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Re: [IC] The After Klaxon group buy discussion
« Reply #251 on: Thu, 11 April 2013, 08:33:02 »
So in your scenario, if I get a base set, modifiers, and a numpad, I'm subsidizing the ISO Enter tooling for $21? No thanks.

A simpler solution would be to get you guys off the ISO. We've coddled you for too long. Move over to ANSI and you'll be much happier with GB key sets.
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Offline BimboBB

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Re: [IC] The After Klaxon group buy discussion
« Reply #252 on: Thu, 11 April 2013, 08:42:42 »
It would be only this one time. Afterwards SP has the tool for the enter key and you dont have to coddle us ISO guys again when it comes to DSA groupbuys. Come on....show some love.  :)
« Last Edit: Thu, 11 April 2013, 08:45:22 by BimboBB »

Offline ApocalypseMaow

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Re: [IC] The After Klaxon group buy discussion
« Reply #253 on: Thu, 11 April 2013, 08:45:20 »
No love from JD this morning....  :))
But! I do agree that me shelling out more for caps so a handful can get iso, is a no go.
I always buy numpads and usually have to shell out for that cause I don't do tkl.
No free rides!  :p
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Offline jdcarpe

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Re: [IC] The After Klaxon group buy discussion
« Reply #254 on: Thu, 11 April 2013, 08:52:47 »
Well, we're going to have plenty of time to find a solution to raise the $3500 for the tooling, since TJ won't be running this until probably June.

My suggestion would be to combine DSA Orange Crush with two other DSA sets into one big GB. Use Matt3o's GB software for orders. Run it in the usual GB timeline, not flash, not R4. That way there should be more orders to spread the cost of the tooling, and everyone pays less subsidy, as in 7bit's R4.

I was thinking that the sets that would get the most orders, if run at the same time as DSA Orange Crush, are Matt3o/samwisekoi's DSA Retro Blue, DSA "R4-Retro," and DSA "Round 3" style.

Or TJ could split off Orange Crush (I've used it 3 times now, TJ, so this is officially the new name),  and run it through GMK, while someone else could run the DSA sets GB.
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Offline BimboBB

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Re: [IC] The After Klaxon group buy discussion
« Reply #255 on: Thu, 11 April 2013, 09:08:29 »
That sounds great!  :) I am not in a hurry and if the tooling costs/per set can be reduced way more because of multiple DSA set GB, I am feeling not so guilty asking for it.

Offline ApocalypseMaow

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Re: [IC] The After Klaxon group buy discussion
« Reply #256 on: Thu, 11 April 2013, 10:09:59 »
Well, we're going to have plenty of time to find a solution to raise the $3500 for the tooling, since TJ won't be running this until probably June.

My suggestion would be to combine DSA Orange Crush with two other DSA sets into one big GB. Use Matt3o's GB software for orders. Run it in the usual GB timeline, not flash, not R4. That way there should be more orders to spread the cost of the tooling, and everyone pays less subsidy, as in 7bit's R4.

I was thinking that the sets that would get the most orders, if run at the same time as DSA Orange Crush, are Matt3o/samwisekoi's DSA Retro Blue, DSA "R4-Retro," and DSA "Round 3" style.

Or TJ could split off Orange Crush (I've used it 3 times now, TJ, so this is officially the new name),  and run it through GMK, while someone else could run the DSA sets GB.
Sounds like a solid plan!
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Offline KuhnTang

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Re: [IC] The After Klaxon group buy discussion
« Reply #257 on: Thu, 11 April 2013, 12:09:00 »
No love from JD this morning....  :))
But! I do agree that me shelling out more for caps so a handful can get iso, is a no go.
I always buy numpads and usually have to shell out for that cause I don't do tkl.
No free rides!  :p

I have to admit that I too would be turned off paying for tooling/keys that I will never use.

Offline Tarzan

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Re: [IC] The After Klaxon group buy discussion
« Reply #258 on: Thu, 11 April 2013, 12:19:49 »
No love from JD this morning....  :))
But! I do agree that me shelling out more for caps so a handful can get iso, is a no go.
I always buy numpads and usually have to shell out for that cause I don't do tkl.
No free rides!  :p

I have to admit that I too would be turned off paying for tooling/keys that I will never use.

I've accumulated quite a few ISO layout keyboards by now, the SkiData unit, a G80-1800, and most recently a G80-1501 HAD (inbound from Berlin...).  I'd like to see more ISO keycap options, but I agree that any new tooling costs should be incorporated in ISO-specific buys, not added to ANSI layouts as well.  Same goes for 104-key sets, I like the full-size boards, but I wouldn't expect that group buys with TKL options should cover a portion of the costs for NumPad and the extra modifiers.

What I would like to see are ISO option kits included in every GB.  It's a bit frustrating to see group buys posted with TKL-only layouts, I think I've passed on five or six buys already that would only work on a TKL board. 

Offline tjcaustin

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Re: [IC] The After Klaxon group buy discussion
« Reply #259 on: Thu, 11 April 2013, 14:22:34 »
Keep in mind that I'd like to keep some room to help german and eruo kits in case they don't get 25 sets sold.

Also, keep in mind this is for one key in one layout in one key profile.  And if we do split the cost between this and the next retro buy that matt/samwise are hosting, that delays all of the stuff nearly 3 months while they create the tooling to do it.

Retro should be shipping soon and didn't it have an ISO option?  Let's see how that looks before cementing whether we need to invest in a new key.

Offline tjcaustin

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Re: [IC] The After Klaxon group buy discussion
« Reply #260 on: Thu, 11 April 2013, 14:56:40 »
Just got word back from Melissa about the Euro kit.  They don't have much of it in DSA and as such, each of those keys would be subject to a $35 legend fee.  There are 33 keys that are subject to that and as such, here's the break down of cost:

25 sets                   $71.16 per set
50 sets                   $46.59 per set
75 sets                   $38.40 per set
100 sets                 $34.30 per set
150 sets                 $30.21 per set
200 sets                 $28.15 per set
250 sets                 $26.93 per set

Offline pasph

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Re: [IC] The After Klaxon group buy discussion
« Reply #261 on: Thu, 11 April 2013, 17:36:45 »
Just got word back from Melissa about the Euro kit.  They don't have much of it in DSA and as such, each of those keys would be subject to a $35 legend fee.  There are 33 keys that are subject to that and as such, here's the break down of cost:

25 sets                   $71.16 per set
50 sets                   $46.59 per set
75 sets                   $38.40 per set
100 sets                 $34.30 per set
150 sets                 $30.21 per set
200 sets                 $28.15 per set
250 sets                 $26.93 per set

Thank you! This is the first quote i see on an iso legends kit!
Maybe a DSA set GB is not the best opportunity for such attempt
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Offline sicaine

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Re: [IC] The After Klaxon group buy discussion
« Reply #262 on: Fri, 12 April 2013, 02:40:31 »
Is DSA final? I mean i do like the DSA, but i also will have a SP CCnG and it would be awesome to combine those two sets.

I also think that it does look way better in normal profile.
I'd love an CCnO set but i wouldn't buy an CCnO DSA set.

Offline BimboBB

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Re: [IC] The After Klaxon group buy discussion
« Reply #263 on: Fri, 12 April 2013, 05:40:46 »
Thank you! This is the first quote i see on an iso legends kit!
Maybe a DSA set GB is not the best opportunity for such attempt

But sooner or later you need to pay for the DSA legends anyway, if you ever want a DSA set with yr native layout. And if there is a big multiple DSA GB thats probably the best opportunity. 

And if we do split the cost between this and the next retro buy that matt/samwise are hosting, that delays all of the stuff nearly 3 months while they create the tooling to do it.

Is it maybe possible to split the language kit (or even just the ISO enter) from the other kits in terms of delivery? So this ISO enter isnt spoiling the delivery time of all the remaining stuff?

Offline pasph

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Re: [IC] The After Klaxon group buy discussion
« Reply #264 on: Fri, 12 April 2013, 06:09:07 »
Thank you! This is the first quote i see on an iso legends kit!
Maybe a DSA set GB is not the best opportunity for such attempt

But sooner or later you need to pay for the DSA legends anyway, if you ever want a DSA set with yr native layout. And if there is a big multiple DSA GB thats probably the best opportunity. 


I don't want helps from ansi people for a regional kit because i'm tired of iso vs ansi debates, i really hope we eu people can work it out by ourselves and i'm worry that THIS gb isn't the best opportunity to reach our goal since there's even the iso enter profile problem, maybe is better try the eu kit first in a DCS gb?
The DSA iso enter it's a totally different problem.
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Offline BimboBB

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Re: [IC] The After Klaxon group buy discussion
« Reply #265 on: Fri, 12 April 2013, 06:27:39 »
There is no help from ANSI people, except for the ISO enter. The legend fees for the euro-kit are ONLY within the euro-kit. However as bigger the whole groupbuy, as less the kits (incl euro-kit) will cost. for example matt3o asked for a single quoation (not within a gb) for euro-kit in DSA retro design: $100 for 50 sets. Tjcaustin asked for same quotation within his orange-GB: $47 for 50 sets.

Offline KuhnTang

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Re: [IC] The After Klaxon group buy discussion
« Reply #266 on: Fri, 12 April 2013, 11:35:51 »
There is no help from ANSI people, except for the ISO enter. The legend fees for the euro-kit are ONLY within the euro-kit. However as bigger the whole groupbuy, as less the kits (incl euro-kit) will cost. for example matt3o asked for a single quoation (not within a gb) for euro-kit in DSA retro design: $100 for 50 sets. Tjcaustin asked for same quotation within his orange-GB: $47 for 50 sets.

What?

to answer what I think you're trying to say.  If you buy more "euro-kit's" it doesn't affect the price of anyone else's ansi kit.  They are completely seperate. 

Offline tjcaustin

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Re: [IC] The After Klaxon group buy discussion
« Reply #267 on: Fri, 12 April 2013, 11:47:04 »
Is DSA final? I mean i do like the DSA, but i also will have a SP CCnG and it would be awesome to combine those two sets.

I also think that it does look way better in normal profile.
I'd love an CCnO set but i wouldn't buy an CCnO DSA set.

The only way it isn't is if 400+ people sign up for it to go through GMK (which severely limits the order/options).  That's not to say I won't revisit this in 6-12 months and see if a DCS version is popular enough to get ran, but this specific set is going to be DSA

Offline Wraul

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Re: [IC] The After Klaxon group buy discussion
« Reply #268 on: Sat, 13 April 2013, 04:47:09 »
Just got word back from Melissa about the Euro kit.  They don't have much of it in DSA and as such, each of those keys would be subject to a $35 legend fee.  There are 33 keys that are subject to that and as such, here's the break down of cost:

25 sets                   $71.16 per set
50 sets                   $46.59 per set
75 sets                   $38.40 per set
100 sets                 $34.30 per set
150 sets                 $30.21 per set
200 sets                 $28.15 per set
250 sets                 $26.93 per set

Nice.
Those prices aren't all bad considering how many DSA legends we lack.
This would indicate that a Euro kit in DCS profile should be very doable, given that we already have the legends for those.

Personally I wouldn't mind paying quite a lot for a Euro kit.
Having the correct legends makes a huge difference.
If you are already paying a premium to get double shot keys, why not take it the whole way?
Those nice double shot legends doesn't do you much good if they don't correspond to what the keys actually does.

The standard ISO kit usually included in group buys is kind of useless in this regard.
Yes they makes the set usable on ISO keyboards. And I really appreciate that they are included, even though I mainly use ANSI.
I'm sure there is many that can't justify paying for a set of keycaps when the legends isn't correct in their language.
So I believe a Euro kit would get more buyers that the usual ISO kits.

For the record.
At the DSA Euro kit prices I would buy 1-2 sets at $71.16 and 3-4 at $46.59

Offline Matt3o

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Re: [IC] The After Klaxon group buy discussion
« Reply #269 on: Wed, 22 May 2013, 05:26:38 »
Just got word back from Melissa about the Euro kit.  They don't have much of it in DSA and as such, each of those keys would be subject to a $35 legend fee.  There are 33 keys that are subject to that and as such, here's the break down of cost:

25 sets                   $71.16 per set
50 sets                   $46.59 per set
75 sets                   $38.40 per set
100 sets                 $34.30 per set
150 sets                 $30.21 per set
200 sets                 $28.15 per set
250 sets                 $26.93 per set

Thank you! This is the first quote i see on an iso legends kit!
Maybe a DSA set GB is not the best opportunity for such attempt

this is so freaking untrue! :P

we discussed on DT about the feasibility of DSA Retro ISO kit and we also got a quote from SP which includes tooling for new legends. I'm not posting it here, but keys+missing tools for main EU languages came out definitely expensive (much more than tj's quote)
« Last Edit: Wed, 22 May 2013, 05:30:42 by Matt3o »

Offline pasph

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Re: [IC] The After Klaxon group buy discussion
« Reply #270 on: Wed, 22 May 2013, 05:36:59 »
So TJ's quotes are false?
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Offline Matt3o

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Re: [IC] The After Klaxon group buy discussion
« Reply #271 on: Wed, 22 May 2013, 05:40:27 »
So TJ's quotes are false?

TJ's probably includes less languages, or SP changed pricing for DSA tooling. Don't know what to say, but the quote that I got it's almost twice tj's one (it can be found on DT DSA GB thread)

Offline pasph

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Re: [IC] The After Klaxon group buy discussion
« Reply #272 on: Wed, 22 May 2013, 05:50:07 »
Pricing for Deutsche kit

25 sets                   $15.77 per set
50 sets                   $12.85 per set
75 sets                   $11.88 per set
100 sets                 $11.39 per set
150 sets                 $10.90 per set
200 sets                 $10.66 per set
250 sets                 $10.51 per set

Ok i'm going to ask the usual boring question:
Why not an EU kit?
(Attachment Link)

I think TJ's quote is about the attached eu kit
"There is more stupidity than hydrogen in the universe, and it has a longer shelf life"

Offline Matt3o

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Re: [IC] The After Klaxon group buy discussion
« Reply #273 on: Wed, 22 May 2013, 05:52:36 »
ooh that explains everything.

we had many more legends than that, I don't remember exactly but it was like 70 new legends.

(I took all keyboard layouts, merged them and ended up with approx that number of unique legends)

Offline LechnerDE

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Re: [IC] The After Klaxon group buy discussion
« Reply #274 on: Wed, 22 May 2013, 05:56:08 »
ooh that explains everything.

we had many more legends than that, I don't remember exactly but it was like 70 new legends.

(I took all keyboard layouts, merged them and ended up with approx that number of unique legends)

I think TJ's Euro set covers all that is needed for regular ISO boards. It would be too much if we considered every single key there might be...

Offline Matt3o

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Re: [IC] The After Klaxon group buy discussion
« Reply #275 on: Wed, 22 May 2013, 06:17:16 »
sorry but... is nobody interested in DSA/PBT/dyesub?

Offline pasph

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Re: [IC] The After Klaxon group buy discussion
« Reply #276 on: Wed, 22 May 2013, 09:08:39 »
Price?
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Offline tjcaustin

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Re: [IC] The After Klaxon group buy discussion
« Reply #277 on: Wed, 22 May 2013, 12:26:02 »
sorry but... is nobody interested in DSA/PBT/dyesub?

I'm sure there are some people, but I think dyesub doesn't look as good and figure there are enough GB organizers (such as yourself) that do that I don't worry about it /shrug.

Offline Wraul

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Re: [IC] The After Klaxon group buy discussion
« Reply #278 on: Wed, 22 May 2013, 13:14:47 »
Ok i'm going to ask the usual boring question:
Why not an EU kit?
(Attachment Link)

If this is the Euro kit quoted, it does miss a couple of keys for most of the languages.

Offline pasph

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Re: [IC] The After Klaxon group buy discussion
« Reply #279 on: Wed, 22 May 2013, 15:43:50 »
This is for dsa caps so the Keys position is interchangeable, you can put the same "A" key in row3 or row2
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Offline BimboBB

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Re: [IC] The After Klaxon group buy discussion
« Reply #280 on: Thu, 23 May 2013, 03:19:09 »
pasph missed only one key (2/"). otherwise he is completely right with the selection. which keys are you missing wraul?

Offline Wraul

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Re: [IC] The After Klaxon group buy discussion
« Reply #281 on: Thu, 23 May 2013, 10:59:10 »
pasph missed only one key (2/"). otherwise he is completely right with the selection. which keys are you missing wraul?

I don't know the exact constraints that was used when selecting which keys to include in the Euro kit.
There might be a reason why it is the way it is.

I did a quick picture of which keys is missing for a complete Swedish/Finish layout.
Similar keys appear to be missing from other languages.



Offline realex

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Re: [IC] The After Klaxon group buy discussion
« Reply #282 on: Thu, 23 May 2013, 11:07:01 »
well the reason was/is that it wasn't particularly intended to make the iso kit a special language pack - cause then we would have looked at a whole lot of different legends that had been needed to acquire (for lots of $) in order to complete multiple languages - but to make the set usable with an iso layout keyboard while setting it to ansi us input method within windows (if you need all legends to match the exact key they display).

Offline Matt3o

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Re: [IC] The After Klaxon group buy discussion
« Reply #283 on: Thu, 23 May 2013, 11:12:24 »
This should be a pretty complete list of keys per language

Code: [Select]
BE
²³ &1| é2@ "3# '4 (5 §6^ è7 !8 ç9{ à0} )° -_
E€ ^¨[ $*]
ù%´ µ£`
<>\ ,? ;. :/ =+~

DE
^° 1! 2"² 3§³ 4$ 5% 6& 7/{ 8([ 9)] 0=} ß?\ ´`
Q@ E€ Ü +*~
Ö Ä #'
<>| Mµ ,; .: -_

DK
½§ 1! 2"@ 3#£ 4¤$ 5%€ 6& 7/{ 8([ 9)] 0=} +? ´`|
E€ Å ¨^~
Æ Ø '*
<>\ Mµ ,; .: -_

ES
°ª\ 1!| 2"@ 3·# 4$~ 5%€ 6&¬ 7/ 8( 9) 0= '? ¡¿
`^[ +*]
Ñ ´¨{ ç}
<> ,; .: -_

FR
² &1 é2~ "3# '4{ (5[ -6| è7` _8\ ç9^ à0@ )°] =+}
e€ ^¨ $£¤
ù% *µ
<> ,? ;. :/ !§

IT
\| 1! 2" 3£ 4$ 5% 6& 7/ 8( 9) 0= '? í^
E€ éè[ +*]
òç@ à°# ù§
<> ,; .: -_

NO
|§ 1! 2"@ 3#£ 4¤$ 5% 6& 7/{ 8([ 9)] 0=} +? \`´
E€ Å ¨^~
Ø Æ '*
<> Mµ ,; .: -_

PT
\| 1! 2"@ 3#£ 4$§ 5% 6& 7/{ 8([ 9)] 0=} '? «»
E€ +*¨ ´`
ç āō ~^
<> ,; .: -_

SW-FI
§½ 1! 2"@ 3#£ 4¤€ 5% 6& 7/{ 8([ 9)] 0=} +?\ ´`
E€ Å ¨^~
Ö Ä '*
<>| Mµ ,; .: -_

UK
`¬| 1! 2" 3£ 4$€ 5% 6^ 7& 8* 9( 0) -_ =+
[{ ]}
;: '@ #~
\| ,< .> /?

the SP quote for all of them was basically twice what tj posted

Offline tjcaustin

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Re: [IC] The After Klaxon group buy discussion
« Reply #284 on: Thu, 23 May 2013, 12:57:53 »
If I remember right (I could look at an email, but that was two months ago and I got a lot of emails since then), it's $35 a legend to have new stuff made.  I'm also unsure of their triple shooting abilities or if they would do the secondary as dyesub or pad-print.

Keep in mind that while I'm very interested in getting as many people Orange Crush Madness as possible, I am not at all interested in getting into a round 4 situation ever.

Another idea/option would be to order a bunch of cream and orange blanks and have them dye-subbed by a fourth party.

Also, depending on the mood of the forum and myself, I would still be interested in getting a white on orange set run through GMK (it would include basic ISO and tsangan kits).

Offline BimboBB

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Re: [IC] The After Klaxon group buy discussion
« Reply #285 on: Thu, 23 May 2013, 17:41:39 »
@wraul

these keys are in, just without the triple legend. makes no sense to make this third legend, as we would end up with tons of different keys.

@tjcaustin

how would you end up in a round 4 situation when you add ONE more kit? 7bit proposed this euro-kit just BECAUSE of the round 4 experience with these many different small kits.

but well....if you go with GMK, that topic is closed anyway. No way 300 people are going to order that euro-kit. Unfortunately.
« Last Edit: Thu, 23 May 2013, 17:44:36 by BimboBB »

Offline tjcaustin

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Re: [IC] The After Klaxon group buy discussion
« Reply #286 on: Thu, 23 May 2013, 19:01:26 »
@wraul

these keys are in, just without the triple legend. makes no sense to make this third legend, as we would end up with tons of different keys.

@tjcaustin

how would you end up in a round 4 situation when you add ONE more kit? 7bit proposed this euro-kit just BECAUSE of the round 4 experience with these many different small kits.

but well....if you go with GMK, that topic is closed anyway. No way 300 people are going to order that euro-kit. Unfortunately.

I'm just saying to say.  I'm not claiming this one additional set makes it a round4 situation, just that there should be the expectation that at some point I'll be cutting off regional/non-popular kits.

Offline Wraul

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Re: [IC] The After Klaxon group buy discussion
« Reply #287 on: Fri, 24 May 2013, 14:42:01 »
@wraul

these keys are in, just without the triple legend. makes no sense to make this third legend, as we would end up with tons of different keys.

I understand the will to keep the number of keys low.
I think like this though. The 3rd legends are some of the harder to remember, which actually raises their importance and usefulness.

I still think that at least a (2") key should be included. Or perhaps even a (2"@) key.

Don't think I'm complaining. I'm very happy to see this Euro kit. And the keys included goes 80% of the way, which is awesome.

Offline pasph

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Re: [IC] The After Klaxon group buy discussion
« Reply #288 on: Fri, 24 May 2013, 16:40:40 »
Maybe someone can open a thread, here or over DT, about this topic to find a good compromise for the various potential buyers
"There is more stupidity than hydrogen in the universe, and it has a longer shelf life"

Offline noisyturtle

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Re: [IC] The After Klaxon group buy discussion
« Reply #289 on: Thu, 29 August 2013, 03:59:28 »
So, is this dream dead then?
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sorry about the resurrection, but I was really looking forward to this  :'(

Offline LechnerDE

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Re: [IC] The After Klaxon group buy discussion
« Reply #290 on: Thu, 29 August 2013, 05:20:57 »
I think this set was basically replaced by this set:

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=45288.0

I am not sure though.
« Last Edit: Thu, 29 August 2013, 12:22:49 by LechnerDE »

Offline tjcaustin

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Re: [IC] The After Klaxon group buy discussion
« Reply #291 on: Thu, 29 August 2013, 12:11:39 »
They're two different sets, but I'm not sure the popularity of mine with the trans orange/white coming.

I'm thinking of getting just the monotone cream on orange done through GMK, but I've been dealing with other group buys this summer that have delayed me

Offline LechnerDE

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Re: [IC] The After Klaxon group buy discussion
« Reply #292 on: Thu, 29 August 2013, 12:24:09 »
I'm thinking of getting just the monotone cream on orange done through GMK

That would be awesome!

But do you really think you can hit a MOQ of 400 with that?

Offline tjcaustin

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Re: [IC] The After Klaxon group buy discussion
« Reply #293 on: Thu, 29 August 2013, 16:57:55 »
Plan on doing a pre-sale and then selling the leftovers via mimic if I do that.

Offline noisyturtle

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Re: [IC] The After Klaxon group buy discussion
« Reply #294 on: Thu, 29 August 2013, 18:16:58 »
Another thought to garner more attention, holding a giveaway with the group buy for an couple Orangsicle CC's. I may consider donating mine if it would help this groupbuy get off the ground.

Perhaps adding an optional image for the windows key like a Popsicle, or creamy hapsters.
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