[IC] F62+F77! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

[Ellipse]

Yep all made in China. 

Hopefully the prototypes ship early next week!

The backend for the store is up and running with products and possible variations.  Of course ordering is disabled until everything is ready.  A community member is working on the design for the web site, and a few DT/GH members are working on content.

[pchatterjee]

Ellipse -- for those of us who have signed onto your form are we ordering through the website as well?

[Elrick]

Ellipse -- for those of us who have signed onto your form are we ordering through the website as well?

Eager to know as well because when you finally launch this website, will it be everyone for themselves barging into your website to grab their keyboard as soon as possible or will those who have already filled out your form get preference?

Please let us know, I hate to miss out due to sleeping in between my shifts  .

[cjhard]

Is there a maximum quantity? I would assume I'd still be able to secure an F62 a week later if I just cut my Rent check an hour before the buy goes live.

[Techno Trousers]

Ellipse needs to answer this, but I don't think this will be like a Clack sale. I anticipate that orders will be taken for 60 days or so, then ordering will be closed and the keyboards and parts will be ordered from the factory in one fell swoop.

[cjhard]

That's what I figured, but maybe Elrick just wants one the first 5

[ryahirv]

Ok. I'm definitely in for one Of the smaller form factor cases.

Is that just the 62 key or is there a smaller case for the larger model too?

[Ellipse]

Yes I will take all orders through the web site.  There are dropdown menus to pick colors, layouts, etc.  The web site is far from finished but the backend is ready and confirmed working.  The web site takes you to PayPal's secure web site where you log in or can pay by credit card if you do not want to sign up for PayPal.  No personal information is entered on the keyboard web site. 

And yes Elrick I will ship them in the sequence that the orders come in on the web site.  If anyone is international and wants a lower serial number please let me know and I will try to set a unit aside (due to the time zone differences).

cjhard there is no maximum quantity.  You can order one now and order another one a month later.  To help defray tooling costs I am offering the earliest serial numbers (including single significant digit serials) at higher cost.  Other than that it is first come first served.  I will not be prioritizing serials based on when you signed the interest form.

Yes Techno that is my expectation.  I'm not sure how Clack sales run?  I may do two runs, one for early birds and one main run so that people don't have to wait two months if they get their order in during the first few weeks.  But I'm leaning towards one run, meaning the keyboards would likely ship in March if all goes well.  Does anyone have any recommendations in this process?

ryahirv there will be a smaller case for the F77 model too.  I have been talking with the DT folks about the design of the smaller case.  A number of them seem to prefer an extruded aluminum type case which is significantly more expensive than my alternative case design posted earlier in this thread.

Here are the "second alternative" extruded aluminum case rough draft designs (one with perpendicular edges and one with rounded) - please let me know your feedback.

[Ellipse]

The factory is coming along nicely with the prototype units and they have sent more photos.

Unfortunately they need to take the rest of this week to finish up loose ends (styrofoam packing/the box) and make some notes for production and assembly while they still have the prototype units, before they mail them. This means we are delayed until late next week most likely

One more reminder that the case paint colors are not accurate in the photos below. Also the foam used in the photo for testing is not the foam being used for the production units.

Also in the photos you can see the inside of the top cover and its strain relief post. The P clips arrived today and they worked well with the USB cable in my testing.

[iamtootallforthis]

Loving this! Really hoping I can get #4!

[Elrick]

And yes Elrick I will ship them in the sequence that the orders come in on the web site.  If anyone is international and wants a lower serial number please let me know and I will try to set a unit aside (due to the time zone differences).

ryahirv there will be a smaller case for the F77 model too.  I have been talking with the DT folks about the design of the smaller case.  A number of them seem to prefer an extruded aluminum type case which is significantly more expensive than my alternative case design posted earlier in this thread.

Here are the "second alternative" extruded aluminum case rough draft designs (one with perpendicular edges and one with rounded) - please let me know your feedback.

FANTASTIC, so this will be a good ole fashioned website buy in "NO PRISONERS TAKEN", type of purchasing  .  Shall enjoy it immensely but are you still going to change the final F77 casing for this keyboard?

If that's to occur then what happens now, do we the F77 fanatics, wait for this new design or what?

[cjhard]

Elrick, I think he's creating an alternate "moderner" style case for F62 and F77 which if you like enough you can update your order before it's manufactured

[Ellipse]

elrick the original Kishsaver and F77 4704 designs are remaining as the ones for this project. 

cjhard is right that I am also working on some alternative designs for those who want a keyboard with a smaller footprint.  __red__ from DT has generously volunteered to redesign the xwhatsit PCB layout so that these smaller cases will be feasible. 

[ryahirv]

I personally like the perpendicular edges, but can go either way

[ctm]

Just to double check in case I missed it, the order website is not up yet, right?

[Ellipse]

correct ctm - you can't order anything just yet.

Technically the backend of the site is up (just the items and customization options) but ordering is disabled.

[Elrick]

correct ctm - you can't order anything just yet.

Technically the backend of the site is up (just the items and customization options) but ordering is disabled.

Can't wait for the link to be posted here, extremely RABID for this keyboard  .

Looks like my F77 is going to happen and when it's finally available for purchase, the American Dream shall be used right here in Convict Town  .

[Vizir]

I prefer the rounded edges, by a hair.

Will you be making a complete working prototype with the new designs?

[romevi]

I prefer the rounded edges, by a hair.

Will you be making a complete working prototype with the new designs?

I prefer the hairy edges. Buy a round.

[Ir0n]

I feel like i'm going to be spending enough on these to buy 3 decked out keyboards..:[ anyway we can preorder one of those lower serial numbered ones you was talking about? or will those just be on the site?

[Vizir]

I prefer the rounded edges, by a hair.

Will you be making a complete working prototype with the new designs?

I prefer the hairy edges. Buy a round.

[Ellipse]

Ir0n the lower serial number options will be available on the web site for a slightly higher charge if you want to be a higher-level project supporter .  Besides that, they will ship and you will get a serial number in order of when your order comes in.

Wrapping up final things:

Europe F77/F62 shipping proxies - any volunteers?

You would be receiving a number of keyboards and shipping them out across Europe, for those who want to save on shipping costs. For example, the post office charges about $51 for a 7 pound package but $91 for a 28 pound package (I don't know the final weight of the keyboards just yet). Then those in Europe would pay you directly for the charges to ship within Europe.

Custom Colors - on the interest form some of you said you'd like a custom color. I will try to get black, but are there any other colors you really want, even if tooling costs were $20 to $100 extra? Please let me know by replying here or over PM. The more people interested in your suggested color, the lower the tooling costs to change colors.

Keyboard options -

The case color options will be for Off-White/Beige, Gray, and a custom color if you discuss with me beforehand.

The layout options for the springs will be ANSI, ISO, and HHKB (split right shift only and both split shift and split backspace).

The key options will be bring your own set (if you mail it to me I can have the factory install it, no extra charge), ANSI, black blank, regular blank, and your own language (ISO) as long as Unicomp makes it. I will also try to get APL and front printed keys but those will both cost more. The costs will be passed along: whatever Unicomp charges on their web site. I will also try to get some used Model M ANSI key sets.

[ImAWildDeer]

I think black or a pure white would be really cool, otherwise I would be very happy with either beige or gray.

Do you have any renders of what the F62 with HHKB layout would look like?

[Elrick]

The case color options will be for Off-White/Beige, Gray, and a custom color if you discuss with me beforehand.

Gray would be my fave colour picked on my first F77 keyboard  .

The layout options for the springs will be ANSI, ISO, and HHKB (split right shift only and both split shift and split backspace).

Layout option has to be only ANSI (my heart sank when I saw those four disgusting letters "HHKB", how could you defame the famous Model-F with that ugly keyboard manufacturer).

[pchatterjee]

Ir0n the lower serial number options will be available on the web site for a slightly higher charge if you want to be a higher-level project supporter .  Besides that, they will ship and you will get a serial number in order of when your order comes in.

Wrapping up final things:

Europe F77/F62 shipping proxies - any volunteers?

You would be receiving a number of keyboards and shipping them out across Europe, for those who want to save on shipping costs. For example, the post office charges about $51 for a 7 pound package but $91 for a 28 pound package (I don't know the final weight of the keyboards just yet). Then those in Europe would pay you directly for the charges to ship within Europe.

Custom Colors - on the interest form some of you said you'd like a custom color. I will try to get black, but are there any other colors you really want, even if tooling costs were $20 to $100 extra? Please let me know by replying here or over PM. The more people interested in your suggested color, the lower the tooling costs to change colors.

Keyboard options -

The case color options will be for Off-White/Beige, Gray, and a custom color if you discuss with me beforehand.

The layout options for the springs will be ANSI, ISO, and HHKB (split right shift only and both split shift and split backspace).

The key options will be bring your own set (if you mail it to me I can have the factory install it, no extra charge), ANSI, black blank, regular blank, and your own language (ISO) as long as Unicomp makes it. I will also try to get APL and front printed keys but those will both cost more. The costs will be passed along: whatever Unicomp charges on their web site. I will also try to get some used Model M ANSI key sets.

I personally would like the option of titanium / silver kind of look or pewter color.

Now we need to convince you to do a M0113 remake.

[alienman82]

Ir0n the lower serial number options will be available on the web site for a slightly higher charge if you want to be a higher-level project supporter .  Besides that, they will ship and you will get a serial number in order of when your order comes in.

Wrapping up final things:

Europe F77/F62 shipping proxies - any volunteers?

You would be receiving a number of keyboards and shipping them out across Europe, for those who want to save on shipping costs. For example, the post office charges about $51 for a 7 pound package but $91 for a 28 pound package (I don't know the final weight of the keyboards just yet). Then those in Europe would pay you directly for the charges to ship within Europe.

Custom Colors - on the interest form some of you said you'd like a custom color. I will try to get black, but are there any other colors you really want, even if tooling costs were $20 to $100 extra? Please let me know by replying here or over PM. The more people interested in your suggested color, the lower the tooling costs to change colors.

Keyboard options -

The case color options will be for Off-White/Beige, Gray, and a custom color if you discuss with me beforehand.

The layout options for the springs will be ANSI, ISO, and HHKB (split right shift only and both split shift and split backspace).

The key options will be bring your own set (if you mail it to me I can have the factory install it, no extra charge), ANSI, black blank, regular blank, and your own language (ISO) as long as Unicomp makes it. I will also try to get APL and front printed keys but those will both cost more. The costs will be passed along: whatever Unicomp charges on their web site. I will also try to get some used Model M ANSI key sets.

dat industrial grey?  That'd be the ****

[Dodgy]

Any estimate on when ordering will open?

[Ellipse]

Yes here is a post from DT showing a HHKB option:



The order form will be opened after I approve of the prototypes.  The prototypes should arrive by the end of next week hopefully.

[iamtootallforthis]

Yes here is a post from DT showing a HHKB option:

(Attachment Link)

The order form will be opened after I approve of the prototypes.  The prototypes should arrive by the end of next week hopefully.

Could we get a count down as to when the orders open?

Also for the low numbers what is the extra fee. I'd like #4 but you said that people who donate more have access to those numbers.

[Elrick]

The order form will be opened after I approve of the prototypes.  The prototypes should arrive by the end of next week hopefully.

Thank you for letting us know  .

Very excited about this, am ready to pounce on my first Model-F Keyboard like a rabid mutt.

[bocahgundul]

I'm not late to the party right? Hope this GB a success so that we can make a FSSK, btw I don't know what to choose f62 or f77 

[Elrick]

I'm not late to the party right? Hope this GB a success so that we can make a FSSK, btw I don't know what to choose f62 or f77 

Don't worry, you've got 7 days to make your mind up. 

After he posts the link that will be it, no more Model-F's ever to built in anyone's lifetime  .

[Techno Trousers]

^Don't listen to Elrick. I'm hoping that some enterprising person or company will run with this and bring the Model F back into full production. I'm an optimist though.

[Ellipse]

Also once orders are open, I will post the web site link publicly so that anyone can place an order.  You do not need to have signed the Google Docs form if you want to order something, and you can change your order or order details without updating your Google Docs submission.

Techno you might be interested in portions of my DT post (recopied below) regarding my thoughts on the feasibility of continuous larger-scale Model F production, the two-month order window, and an explanation of tooling.  This is why I suggest to get in on this project and submit the Google Docs interest form if you'd like to own one or more brand new Model F reproductions. 

Despite this being a $70,000+ project judging by current interest (220+ preorders), this is considered a really small project for factories and everything needs to be ordered in one or two batches to get the price down to $325 per keyboard. Tooling involves the effort to set up the factory's machines to make a particular project - once my few hundred units are done, they reconfigure the machines for something else.

In contrast, the F77 and F62 prototypes arriving next week cost thousands of $$$ each to make as there were no economies of scale.

For production to be "continuous" and for parts and keyboards to be available year-round you'd need to pre-pay for and hold tens of thousands of dollars of inventory. Someone would need to spend about $35,000 to hold just 100 extra keyboards' worth of inventory.

This is the reason for the one or two month window - too short a window and people miss out, but too long a window and people are waiting too long for their order to arrive. I would like to ship these as soon as possible. The project was announced in June so everyone will have had 6 months to come across it and ~two months to place their order.

I am willing to work with anyone or any company that wants to order X number of units and sell them, including Amazon, Massdrop, etc. If anyone can help in this regard (marketing) and/or has industry contacts, please do let me know over PM.

[Ellipse]

The factory used the wrong type of packing foam for the prototype units, instead of the styrofoam material I specified.  As I want the prototypes to be perfect, even the styrofoam packing, I am waiting until they re-make the styrofoam packaging early next week.  This will probably push the date the prototypes arrive to the week of Jan. 11th.

These delays are frustrating but the factory has been very patient and otherwise attentive to such a small project and I am glad they are working with me.

[tribade]

The factory used the wrong type of packing foam for the prototype units, instead of the styrofoam material I specified.  As I want the prototypes to be perfect, even the styrofoam packing, I am waiting until they re-make the styrofoam packaging early next week.  This will probably push the date the prototypes arrive to the week of Jan. 11th.

These delays are frustrating but the factory has been very patient and otherwise attentive to such a small project and I am glad they are working with me.

No worries! I'd rather have a perfect product that takes a little longer to get made!

[Ellipse]

I expect to try to obtain and pass along reduced Unicomp keyset pricing, due to me buying from them in bulk and/or because I will ask them for only the keys required for the project and/or requested by each person ordering one. 

I know that some of you prefer to pay for and receive the full keyset and I'd like that to stay an option too, but if we can save ~1/3 of the cost of each keyset for most buyers, that could mean a savings of ~$1000 assuming 120 keyset orders that would be passed back to everyone.  Some of you may want a future option to change your layout and you'd like the extra new keys, which is also why I'd like to keep that full set as an option. 



Here are my proposed product notes for the web site - please let me know if I should change anything before it goes live:

For those ordering keys for their F77, by default the 15 keys on the right side are populated like an SSK:  the PrintScreen/Scroll Lock/Pause/Ins/Del/Home/End/PgUp/PgDn keys, some blank keys, and the 4 cursor/arrow keys.  If you’d prefer the PC AT-style layout with number keys in that place plus some cursor keys, please let me know.  You’ll need to order an extra 1U wide zero key.  You can also have a variation with the original big zero key if you buy a horizontal stabilizer insert – just let me know by filling out the note field in the final step of checkout.

To keep things vintage, the packing slip will likely be printed using a dot matrix printer on new old stock dot matrix printer paper [note-I bought a used dot matrix printer and some new old stock continuous form green bar paper for this project]

ISO enter key will be included for ISO blank key set.

For HHKB/split right shift and split backspace printed layouts, custom printed keys will be included (if available from Unicomp): Delete key the size of | \, 1U size | \, stepped Ctrl/Ctrl-style Caps Lock, Caps-Lock style Shift, and 1U Fn.  For the HHKB set with the non-split backspace, you will not receive the 1U | \ key and the | \-sized backspace key.

HHKB style keysets with blank keys will include the extra caps lock and 1U style keys.

Black blank key sets do not include regular right shift per Unicomp - instead the Caps Lock style key and an extra 1U key will be included.

I am ordering the keys from Unicomp - if their pricing or availability changes I will get in touch with you with options.

[Ellipse]

In addition to the 5 great condition, complete, used IBM 1391401 key sets that will be sold with this project, I recently acquired 7 M122 key sets at low cost.  If anyone is ordering an F77 or F62 with a key set and could really use some financial aid, please PM me and I will try to set a key set aside for you at significantly reduced cost over Unicomp.  Unicomp charges $34 for a new key set (including the space bar and stabilizer inserts), while these additional sets should cost about $15 each, including stabilizers.  They all have ISO style enter keys so you'd need to add $2 for an ANSI enter key and regular sized | \ key.

I still have the 5 1391401 keyboards without keys/inserts and will have these 7 M122 keyboards without keys/stabilizer inserts available.  The price is dropping from $20 to $15 per incomplete 1391401 and feel free to negotiate a price for the M122s. 

[Elrick]

I am ordering the keys from Unicomp - if their pricing or availability changes I will get in touch with you with options.

Also let us know, if you shall be supplying coloured text/numbers on the keys like what Unicomp offers such as Green, Blue and my favorite Red.

Getting prices for that would be good plus we can mix and match casings with the coloured keys, for that extra customization  .

[Techno Trousers]

Greenbar paper! Wow, that takes me right back to the late 80s for sure.

[bocahgundul]

Oh yeah 1 more question does this have the click solenoid like one of the original? 

[Elrick]

Oh yeah 1 more question does this have the click solenoid like one of the original? 

Aren't the Model-F keys loud enough when used, some were complaining about that earlier on?

The "Click Solenoid" will make the keys even louder which might be good for your neighbours down the block, that would love hearing your typing around midnight  .

[bocahgundul]

Oh yeah 1 more question does this have the click solenoid like one of the original? 

Aren't the Model-F keys loud enough when used, some were complaining about that earlier on?

The "Click Solenoid" will make the keys even louder which might be good for your neighbours down the block, that would love hearing your typing around midnight  .

Yep I really want to get the neighrbours real mad. click solenoid is cool tho too bad its not available with this GB

[Ellipse]

Elrick yes you can buy Red, Green, or Blue keys.  Those keys are $15 more than the regular printed set, according to Unicomp's web site.

So the cost would be $325 keyboard + 4 stabilizer inserts totaling $6 + $3 spacebar + $40 R, G, or B key set = $374.  All those prices besides the keyboard itself are Unicomp's currently listed prices.

bocah there is no solenoid or buzzer with this project.  GH user orihalcon may have an extra 4704 buzzer which should work with this project.

[ctm]

A noob question, why are there 4 barrels on left of spacebar barrel? In all the kishsaver photos I see, there are only 3 keys on left of spacebar.

[Elrick]

Elrick yes you can buy Red, Green, or Blue keys.  Those keys are $15 more than the regular printed set, according to Unicomp's web site.

So the cost would be $325 keyboard + 4 stabilizer inserts totaling $6 + $3 spacebar + $40 R, G, or B key set = $374.  All those prices besides the keyboard itself are Unicomp's currently listed prices.

HOT DAMN  .

Now I want this EVEN MORE .......... Please make sure I get some of that BLUE coloured goodness for my F77 keyboard.  If they can't supply all the Blue keys I would be willing to accept the plain Black coloured legends, but that's if the F77 can't take all the BLUE coloured keys.

I am so excited by this, my first Model-F keyboard in an all metal casing built to out live me, what more could you want?

[Snowdog993]

Elrick yes you can buy Red, Green, or Blue keys.  Those keys are $15 more than the regular printed set, according to Unicomp's web site.

So the cost would be $325 keyboard + 4 stabilizer inserts totaling $6 + $3 spacebar + $40 R, G, or B key set = $374.  All those prices besides the keyboard itself are Unicomp's currently listed prices.

HOT DAMN  .

Now I want this EVEN MORE .......... Please make sure I get some of that BLUE coloured goodness for my F77 keyboard.  If they can't supply all the Blue keys I would be willing to accept the plain Black coloured legends, but that's if the F77 can't take all the BLUE coloured keys.

I am so excited by this, my first Model-F keyboard in an all metal casing built to out live me, what more could you want?

No, I don't think you understand.  The keys will still be the standard Pearl/Pebble, but the legends can be red, green, or blue.  Take a look, I believe this is what Ellipse was going on about.
http://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/FullRGBKeys

[Elrick]

No, I don't think you understand.  The keys will still be the standard Pearl/Pebble, but the legends can be red, green, or blue.  Take a look, I believe this is what Ellipse was going on about.
http://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/FullRGBKeys

Dear Snowdog993,

I know Unicomp shall supply only COLOURED Legends onto the standard Pearl/Pebble series of caps.  Have known that for years but you can request specific coloured keys from them if you're willing to pay for it.

Content with just having all Blue Legends for mine, which will go brilliantly with an all Gray Keyboard Casing  .

[Snowdog993]

No, I don't think you understand.  The keys will still be the standard Pearl/Pebble, but the legends can be red, green, or blue.  Take a look, I believe this is what Ellipse was going on about.
http://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/FullRGBKeys

Dear Snowdog993,

I know Unicomp shall supply only COLOURED Legends onto the standard Pearl/Pebble series of caps.  Have known that for years but you can request specific coloured keys from them if you're willing to pay for it.

Content with just having all Blue Legends for mine, which will go brilliantly with an all Gray Keyboard Casing  .

Yes, definitely.  I thought you were saying blue keycaps with black legends.  Never mind me.  I just misunderstood what you said.

[Elrick]

Yes, definitely.  I thought you were saying blue keycaps with black legends.  Never mind me.  I just misunderstood what you said.

The F77 has a different layout to most standard keyboards that is why I mentioned mixing plain old Black legended (if it means anything) keys, to fill up any spare space on the keyboard.

Don't forget that each buyer can choose any number of layouts with this keyboard so it can be both exciting and also excruciatingly miserable, in filling your whole keyboard up with the appropriate keys.