? Why do you think it's made by iOne?
I heard that Korean "Skydigital nKEYBOARD" is a NKRO board, as the name suggests, and quite popular among budget gamers there. The Japanese model is also available but it's got a bit expensive (around 5,000 JP yen), as is usual with imports.
Razer Tarantula is 10-key rollover board but this one is quite expensive so you wouldn't be interested in this one.
Logitech G11 and older G15 (but not G15S) has at least 6-key rollover.
It's cheap and may have the best clicky switches out there.
Besides, cheap keyboard with NKRO is somewhat oxymoronic...
Source of info?
i can confirm the G15 doesn't have 6kro cause my brother has one.. can't remember what other 2 keys but it blocks the 'o' key.. even though o isnt that big of a deal for me :P
Is it the older G15 for sure(with 18 macro keys on the left)?
If that's the case I'm going to update the information on JP wiki.
Even Microsoft R&D couldn't pull it off so why would Logitech have?
But it's too bad Razer or Logitech don't care about NKRO any longer.
Not sure it's a Windows thing, to be honest. The beep that is generated is a system beep through the system speaker, not a sound played by Windows, which tells me it's a BIOS level thing.
To test, boot up into CMOS setup and try in there.
Try this test: Link. (http://random.xem.us/rollover.html)
Press A (hold), S (hold), then X. Eeeek. No X!!!!!
In a typical FPS that would be going in a diagonal and trying to use the radio (or grenade, or whatever). But then somebody shoots you. Very sad.
What is this mysterious Korean company?
Press A (hold), S (hold), then X. Eeeek. No X!!!!!
Thanks for the info, Rajagra!
Come to think of it I never checked the right shift/ctrl key! But I don't have Razer Tarantula now and can't check it anymore.
If anyone can suggest something that's likely to fail, I'm happy to try it.
4+8+9 works fine. I've been trying everything I can in the numpad (and cursor keys) area and still can't get less than 6.
Welcome to Geekhack! We're always gentle (at least I am up to post count 10).
One keyboard that has a rubber dome yet claims 26-Key rollover is the new Microsoft Sidewinder X4.Show Image(http://common.ziffdavisinternet.com/util_get_image/25/0,1425,i=257325,00.jpg).
Unfortunately they screwed up the design. It has a problem called ghosting where keystrokes register that you actually didn't want.
This is WORSE than key blocking so I don't recommend you buy it.
From the ExtremeTech Review. (http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,2845,2360034,00.asp?kc=ETRSS02129TX1K0000532&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:%20ziffdavis/extremetech%20%28Extremetech%29)
The "ghosting" referred to in the quote above is not from the keyboard. That's a software bug on the PC side. You can see the same behavior with competitive USB keyboards that report large number of keys. For what it's worth, I have only seen this behavior when you exceed 11 simultaneous keys from a single keyboard, so it's probably not much of an issue for most people. This is all discussed on our web site:
Here's what I do when I want to show just how bad most keyboards are:
Press and hold ASDW. Now try pressing every other key while continuing to hold ASDW. You will probably find a number of keys that don't work. When you find these, try releasing some of the ASDW keys. You will probably be able to narrow it down to specific 3-key combinations that don't work.
And he may take away my mug.
Thanks to Dr. Dietz, interesting insights. I'm also glad we can finally put a name to this familiar face. ;)Show Image(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=8039&stc=1&d=1266860741)
Greetings, Dr. Dietz!
Actually I'm curious about the driver, rather than the SideWinder X4 hardware itself.
You just can't handle more than 11 keystrokes at a time with the standard USB HID driver (on Windows XP, at least), you will see ghosting problem when you try (but please don't ask me why, I know very little about how the driver or Windows OS itself works).
And, from what I've gathered, you can't use the brute force here if the hardware is only using USB 1.1 low-speed; to confirm key inputs, every USB keyboard on the market today continuously reports the "current condition" of the keys, while the PS/2 keyboard only sends changes in its state, so I guess 800 Byte/second on USB low-speed interrupt transfer is totally underpowered for NKRO with a decent report rate (though it may be enough for anti-ghosting up to 10-14 keys, not enough for 26 or 17 keys).
And my concern here is that no official article of this keyboard boasts that it uses the USB full-speed transfer for, like, say, faster response for gaming.
I was going to mention to Paul Dietz that his employer might want to look into that problem of the OS ghosting keyboard input. Keyboard computer input has been tackled by multiple companies over many computing platforms over 50 years so I would have thought that they would have figured out how to do it by now.
But that would be rude. And he may take away my mug.
Haha! Good to see you have a sense of humor. Have some wallpaper for your PC and send my apologies to the Microsoft R&D crew.Show Image(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=8619&stc=1&d=1269191277)
Looks more like a beaver...
Shhh! The rat knows all! :p
You seem to be everywhere, Mr. Dietz. Sorry for TwoCables over at OCN, he gets stuck on things sometimes. And also sorry for my lack of EE knowledge! Wait, you aren't the Pope? Oh.
You mentioned that the ghosting issues (not key blocking ;) ) are due to an OS-side problem, correct? Well, you do work at Microsoft. Has this been passed on to the Windows programming team, and could we see an update that fixes this issue some time in the future?
One more question, and you may not have an answer. The popularity of mechanical keyboards has been going up. Not quickly, but it is on the rise. Even Thermaltake is releasing a Cherry keyboard, and a few other keyboard manufacturers have quietly entered the mechanical ring, like Adesso. There are also a few specialty boards being released soon, like the new TrulyErgonomic (http://www.trulyergonomic.com/) and Mini-Guru (http://www.guru-board.com/). I've also noticed that certain models of mechanical keyboard on ebay have gotten harder to find, even in the time that I've been following them.
Some of this interest, especially among enthusiasts, is probably due to Manyak's thread on Overclock.net, which is now the top Google result for "mechanical keyboard".
So with this renewed interest in mechanical keyboards... Are you aware of any plans on Microsoft's part to release one? At the very least, it's probably much easier to make a PCB-based mech board NKRO than a membrane board.
It's straightforward to make mechanical keyboards that support large numbers of simultaneous key strokes - use a big printed circuit board and put a diode in series with each mechanical key. The problem is that it is rather expensive
Hak, you seem to be oblivious to the realities of marketing (as well as enthusiastically rude). OEMs look for ways to cut 1/2 cent in manufacturing costs even if it compromises functionality for 20% of the consumer base. Adding 3 dollars for a feature recognized by under 10% of the customer base simply Ain't Gonna Happen without strongly established evidence of 30 dollar profit per unit (10x profit, not revenue).
BULL****.
In a quantity of 1,000 pieces, my local electronics parts shop sells diodes for THREE CENTS each.
Well, we know what a mechanical board can be sold for: $50 (Scorpius M10. So an NKRO M10 at 80.00 is feasible. At 120, it's a scam.
This may be stupid, but I just had an idea. What about a compromise between a mechanical and a rubber dome? Not like a Topre or anything, no. What I mean is...
In a typical membrane keyboard you have three membranes: top one with the rubber domes, middle spacer membrane, and bottom membrane with the contact surface. What if you replaced that bottom membrane with a PCB? You'd then be able to put a diode after each rubber dome switch, thus giving NKRO. It would be more expensive than a typical rubber dome, but less expensive than a mechanical keyboard because you don't have to use mechanical switches.
You would be able to provide an NKRO rubber dome keyboard in the $50 range, compared to the cheapest NKRO mechanical keyboards like the $70 Adesso MKB-135B.
There's probably some reason this hasn't been done yet, but nothing that stands out to me. Please point out my stupidity.
I just read one of those pages you linked, and I think it changed since last time...
I thought that the 26-key thing was a maximum, and that 11 in the alphanum section was a maximum. But you're claiming that it's 11 key minimum?
In other words, it's 11KRO. Or, in clearer terms, it's NKRO limited by USB... and you've loosened the USB limits.
If so, doh to me for failed reading comprehension.
But in that case couldn't you just use PS/2 and not have to worry about messing around with USB and its limitations? Even the OS limitations for over 11 keys? Or is it a matter of marketing saying it needs to be USB?
So, short answer - SideWinder X4 is a membrane-based keyboard that easily meets your simultaneous key pressing needs, and sells for about the price you want. Problem solved!
:smile:
Mr. Dietz, I would pay big money for an MS Natural 4000 with Cherry Brown switches. Thanks, and welcome to Geekhack.
Plus the adjustable ergo boards don't look as sexy as the fixed ones. For instance, that ergo Model M (I forget what it's called) is ugly as sin. It looks like a toy. I'm sure it's a pure joy to type on, but the Natural 4000 at least looks better.
Actually, no: PS/2 converters are notorious for their 6KRO.There is an exception I know of; the DRKBCN keyboard converter by Dharma Point, which seems to use the standard USB HID driver and yet it is 10-key rollover capable. Though the gimmick behind this looks tricky indeed. Also it's a bit expensive.
It doesn't matter my model F is virtually NKRO, any convertor that hasn't got a special driver will only pick up the first 6 keys.
So, short answer - SideWinder X4 is a membrane-based keyboard that easily meets your simultaneous key pressing needs, and sells for about the price you want.Ah, that should be true but the smaller ESC keys on recent Microsoft keyboards were deal-breaker to me.
The uTron is pretty damn sexy. It also costs a pretty damn sexy $500 (just like the M15 if you can find one).Besides its price tag, you should watch that the key size is smaller (17mm) than your standard keyboards (19mm).
The uTron does look a bit better than the M15... A purer white color, no gray keys. The price tag, though... Eh, at least it's not up to Optimum Maximus levels. :p
hey guys
@Mr. Dietz: Does the PCB run under or past the wrist rest on the sidewinder X4?
... But by their nature, most of the big players have too much overhead to get involved in small market products. In some ways, this is good for the industry because it gives smaller players a place where they can succeed and grow before going toe-to-toe with the big guys.
...
This may be stupid, but I just had an idea. What about a compromise between a mechanical and a rubber dome? Not like a Topre or anything, no. What I mean is...
... What if you replaced that bottom membrane with a PCB? You'd then be able to put a diode after each rubber dome switch, thus giving NKRO....
....There's probably some reason this hasn't been done yet, but nothing that stands out to me. Please point out my stupidity.
...In a quantity of 1,000 pieces, my local electronics parts shop sells diodes for THREE CENTS each.
Likely, a Logitech or Microsoft would be buying in quantities of 100,000 or more, so I'd expect a steeper drop.
104 units for 104 keys = $3.12 extra. Even adding extra tooling and assembly cost, there's no reason the retail boost can't be $20 or less.
Note the delta of price on Filcos is $25 for NKRO.
Well, we know what a mechanical board can be sold for: $50 (Scorpius M10. So an NKRO M10 at 80.00 is feasible. At 120, it's a scam.
But you are correct that there are software issues on the PC-side that as best I can tell, limit you to 11 simultaneous key presses, or 11KRO when using USB if you want error-free operation. You are correct that PS/2 doesn't have this problem (at least not that I know of), but it does have other serious limitations, the most important being that it isn't available on many modern machines, particularly laptops.
Since the problem is a software one, there is a good chance that we will be able to create a fix. No promises here, but we are looking into it. I have tried X4 on some non-MS operating systems, and while this isn't officially supported, it does seem to mostly work. (Obviously, you lose the macro functionality, etc.) And this gets you around the 12+ key problem.:ohwell:
Anyhow, I hope this clears things up...
How is NKRO achieved in capacitative keyboards?
The MS Natural 4000 is one of my all-time favorite keyboards. I absolutely LOVE the layout, the "leather" palm rest, the media buttons (the calculator button was one of my faves, too) and how flat it sits on the desk. Not to mention it even looks pretty sexy on top of all of that with its low-key color combinations. It's just a damn-shame that it's a rubber dome 'board. My feeling is that if you're going to spend a certain amount of extra money on an "ergo" layout, you might as well get the ergo switches to go with it. That said, if are spending a certain amount of extra money on an ergo layout, you might as well get a truly ergo 'board with an adjustable split, but the split in the MS Natural 4000 is about perfect for me.