What would you improve in HHKB layout?

[ajx]

Hi, what would you improve in HHKB layout (assuming there is no perfect layout  )
I can program the layout through Hasu's TMK firmware that allows you to modify the layer
I would take one of your ideas to make my own 




Thanks

[esoomenona]

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[CPTBadAss]

I think this is a thread derived from your question in Simple Questions, Simple Answers. I've included your post here just for reference.

Hey, i got a special HHKB since few days 
This HHKB has Hasu's BT mod which allow you to make your own layoutd to learn it properly
Layout is disturbing but i take time to get use it
Give me your ideas about layout

I would probably
- turn shift into double tap shift (you dont have to hold shift while pressing x key)
- switching tilde and delete
- left_gui to another fn
- fn+space turn into layout 2 with dedicated arrows (WASD)

My questions, how you find original HHKB 's layout?
I like the idea of CTRL instead of Capslock
But i got confused alot with delete/tilde/return
Moreover, fn+dedicated arrows doesnt work that good for a left handed like me

[keshley]

The standard layer never bothered me (other than Fn location), but the function layer is all kinds of messy IMO.

I'd change Control to Function, then map Fn+C, Fn+X, Fn+Z etc, to Ctrl+C and so forth, then setup Fn +IJKL to arrows, Fn+U to pageup, Fn+O to page down. Basically mimic the Pok3r movement function layer, as I find it the easiest to use. Then I'd map the following keys like this:

Command keys -> Alt
Left Alt -> Ctrl (for any Ctrl+ commands not in the function layer)
Right Alt -> Windows (For Windows+L, as that's pretty much the only Windows key shortcut I use).

[deci]

My number one suggestion is to start using spaceFn.
Or in other words, using the space bar (when held down) as your function key.

Then make an arrow cluster with home, end, page up, page down, etc around it.
(For example IJKL is my spacefn layer arrow cluster)

You will be surprised how easy this is to get used to and how much of a pain moving your hand to an actual arrow cluster is later.


NOTE - If you are a gamer I would recommend also having a toggle layer that does not have spaceFn or any other special keys enabled as they will often mess with the controls in games (think of this as your gaming layer)

[Cicada88]

having the ability to Function + an arrow key

[ajx]

Pardon me but SpaceFN seems to be literrally a spacebar that has same function as FN?
I think but its my own opinion toggle space + any key, would be a better solution?
I came from Pure/Poker, on Pure when you toggle space + fn, right_alt, right_ctrl, right_shift, turning into arrows
Press again, it cancels it
Same for Poker with WASD
I think i would implement all function which i need to toggle function

[Melvang]

The only issue I had with space function setup, was the firmware I tried it on, (Easy AVR Tool) was that space registered on key reset, not actuation.  This has been the one layout tweak I could not get used to.

[daerid]

Hi, what would you improve in HHKB layout (assuming there is no perfect layout  )

Change the whole Backspace/Backslash/Backtick setup back to a standard ANSI layout. I love the way the HHKB feels, but man does that BS make my right hand hurt.

[chyros]

That HHKB layout definitely looks like something I wouldn't like at all. I would;
-put the Caps Lock where it belongs and put the ctrls in the recesses (why are there recesses on a space saving board? Oo)
-switch alts and gui buttons
-make the left shift ISO and stick the \ key in the freed up space
-put the `button in what's left of the right recess
-stick the backspace button (2u) on its normal row
-make the enter bigass, there's more than enough space for it (trololol)

This still means controlling the L1 button for the numpad with the LEFT hand so you can still control the numpad with the right, but whatever.

[keshley]

Hi, what would you improve in HHKB layout (assuming there is no perfect layout  )

Change the whole Backspace/Backslash/Backtick setup back to a standard ANSI layout. I love the way the HHKB feels, but man does that BS make my right hand hurt.

That's funny, I find the HHKB backspace setup easier. So much so, my new project will have the same layout. Different strokes and all.

I'm thinking that SpaceFn might accomplish what I want rather than the Jekylled Control/Fn key. My TMK HHKB controller supposedly arrives soon, which I believe comes pre-loaded with SpaceFn enabled, so I'll get to try it.

I half like and half dislike the idea of FnLock. Maybe I'll set the right Fn to FnLock, see if it's useful.

So, revision to my original post:

SpaceFn
Remap function layer to something more useable (HJKL; movement, or IJKL movement, UO page up/down, something like that)
Right Alt -> Windows
Command keys -> Alt
Left Alt -> Undecided. Maybe F5 since that's the function key I use the most.

[digi]

To improve the HHKB layout, I would buy a Realforce 87U, thank you.

[ajx]

Ah good to know i am not the only one who having difficulty to get used to type on this layout
Assuming the physical layout wont change, what would you want to change (software layout)?

http://www.tmk-kbd.com/tmk_keyboard/editor/hhkb/

Here you can tweak it whatever you want

[0100010]

I would add two more modifiers on the bottom outside corners.

[Oobly]

I'd do something you can't... split the spacebar so the Fn key is in a better place (left thumb).

Then I'd remap the arrows and edit keys on the Fn layer so you have an inverted T, with home and end above the left and right arrows. I agree with Keshley that the whole Fn layer needs to be reworked to be usable, but I actually also don't like the Ctrl placement. I find it forces my hand into an awkward twist for most Ctrl combinations, whereas the standard placement forms a more natural finger position layout for Ctrl-ZXC and V. The whole thing just doesn't really work for me.

TBH, I'd much rather have a programmable FC660C.

[MJ45]

Ah good to know i am not the only one who having difficulty to get used to type on this layout
Assuming the physical layout wont change, what would you want to change (software layout)?

http://www.tmk-kbd.com/tmk_keyboard/editor/hhkb/

Here you can tweak it whatever you want

I think you will have to figure that out for yourself. Everyone has different ideas of the perfect HHKB layout changes but those may not work for you. At least you have the option of a programmable controller.

[squidhunter]

This is my current layout.  I have gone through many layouts and this is the one I stuck with.  I really have been taking to the spaceFN layer, its just so efficient!  Before critique you should know that most of my time is spent in the linux command line, and my editor is vim.  I should also note that there is a tenkey under the primary function layer which is very helpful for typing IP's and multi-factor codes and such.  If anyone is interested I would give it a try, it will change you.

[ajx]

To sum up, what i would like to change in HHKB layout

- Ctrl to Capslock

- LEFT_CMD to CRTL

- Tilde to Delete, Delete to tilde

- FN works as toggle

- Dedicated arrows as inverted T (Oobly you read on my thoughts lol), somewhere which it doesnt interact the alpha keys

I didnt change the original layout deeply, this is looks like a standard ANSI layout which it sounds familiar to me
Unfortunetaly i cant programming space + x key as toggle
 

I may give a try on SpaceFN but i am also a gaming user so it might be an issue when gaming

[steve.v]

Hi, what would you improve in HHKB layout (assuming there is no perfect layout  )

Change the whole Backspace/Backslash/Backtick setup back to a standard ANSI layout. I love the way the HHKB feels, but man does that BS make my right hand hurt.

Switch Capslock to backspace

[chyros]

Also, how about a split spacebar with the left bit a backspace key rather than that nonstandard backspace on the original layout?

[Hypersphere]

The standard HHKB layout is perfect for me, given the options for "Mac layout" and changing Delete to Backspace in the primary layer. (I have DIP switches 2, 3, and 6 ON and the others OFF).

In fact, when I use other keyboards, I remap them to something as close as possible to the HHKB layout.

[ssdt]

This is my current layout.  I have gone through many layouts and this is the one I stuck with.  I really have been taking to the spaceFN layer, its just so efficient!  Before critique you should know that most of my time is spent in the linux command line, and my editor is vim.  I should also note that there is a tenkey under the primary function layer which is very helpful for typing IP's and multi-factor codes and such.  If anyone is interested I would give it a try, it will change you.

(Attachment Link)

Nice layout there, mate. May I ask what font that is?

[GL1TCH3D]

Personally the ~ being on the main layer is a waste. I'd rather move back slash over one and put the del key there on the main layer. I'm fine with the current arrow key positions and don't use much else on the Fn layer. The only other change is I'd probably make the left side gui key into alt and change the alt to Fn.

[squidhunter]

This is my current layout.  I have gone through many layouts and this is the one I stuck with.  I really have been taking to the spaceFN layer, its just so efficient!  Before critique you should know that most of my time is spent in the linux command line, and my editor is vim.  I should also note that there is a tenkey under the primary function layer which is very helpful for typing IP's and multi-factor codes and such.  If anyone is interested I would give it a try, it will change you.

(Attachment Link)

Nice layout there, mate. May I ask what font that is?

Thank you sir: its Terminus (9 point).  One of the only monospace fonts I can live with

[ssdt]

This is my current layout.  I have gone through many layouts and this is the one I stuck with.  I really have been taking to the spaceFN layer, its just so efficient!  Before critique you should know that most of my time is spent in the linux command line, and my editor is vim.  I should also note that there is a tenkey under the primary function layer which is very helpful for typing IP's and multi-factor codes and such.  If anyone is interested I would give it a try, it will change you.

(Attachment Link)

Nice layout there, mate. May I ask what font that is?

Thank you sir: its Terminus (9 point).  One of the only monospace fonts I can live with

Thanks! It seems to be easy on the eyes. Getting dizzy working with LaTeX the whole day having an inappropriate font.

[Polymer]

I'd use dip switches to make the bottom row

fn alt space alt win

FN layer would change so IJKL are the arrow keys

Change the right FN key (pinky key) to do a 2nd FN layer w/ the standard fn HHKB stuff in case someone is used to that. 

[dustinhxc]

What I just programmed to my HASU is:
Toggle Layer on Fn Key
Left control(a 2nd one, I left left control as left control as well) on left alt
Right control on right alt
Left Alt on left gui
Right Alt on right gui
Delete on ' Key

The board is now much better! 

[deci]

Pardon me but SpaceFN seems to be literrally a spacebar that has same function as FN?
I think but its my own opinion toggle space + any key, would be a better solution?
I came from Pure/Poker, on Pure when you toggle space + fn, right_alt, right_ctrl, right_shift, turning into arrows
Press again, it cancels it
Same for Poker with WASD
I think i would implement all function which i need to toggle function

Yep, pretty much.
When you hold it down and press another key, it acts as a function.
When you tap it quickly, it gives you a space like normal.
If you hold it for like half a second and then just release, you get nothing.
It is much more convenient than having a toggle in my opinion.
Probably the only you can't do is hold down the spacebar to keep getting spaces (but you really need this you can make function+some other key a spacebar key)

The only issue I had with space function setup, was the firmware I tried it on, (Easy AVR Tool) was that space registered on key reset, not actuation.  This has been the one layout tweak I could not get used to.

Yes it actuates on release. It sort of can't work any other way.
I haven't tried it in Easy AVR but in TMK the implementation is really good.
I don't see why anyone would have trouble getting used to this other than for gaming.
(For gaming a have a normal toggle layer with no special functions at all on it)

[TopreFan333]

Personally the ~ being on the main layer is a waste. I'd rather move back slash over one and put the del key there on the main layer. I'm fine with the current arrow key positions and don't use much else on the Fn layer. The only other change is I'd probably make the left side gui key into alt and change the alt to Fn.

Agree. I'm currently mapping ~ to DEL using Karabiner. I so rarely need to use the ~ or ` keys. I'm sure it would be different if I was a programmer, but I'm not

[TopreFan333]

Thank you sir: its Terminus (9 point).  One of the only monospace fonts I can live with

Highly recommend Courier Prime Sans and Courier Prime Code: http://quoteunquoteapps.com/courierprime/  (scroll to the bottom of the page)

[squidhunter]

Thank you sir: its Terminus (9 point).  One of the only monospace fonts I can live with

Highly recommend Courier Prime Sans and Courier Prime Code: http://quoteunquoteapps.com/courierprime/  (scroll to the bottom of the page)

Holy cow.. This looks really nice.. I'm very particular with monospace fonts that I stare at all day and this one definitely makes the cut.  Ill have to try it out for a few days, thank you!

[ajx]

I eventually changed the original layout through TMK layout
Oh my god! That was pain in the ass, thanks @dustinhxc who helped me
Several times, i thought i simply killed my keyboard that didnt respond, it didnt register any keystrokes
After unplugging and plugging the usb cable, it eventually work again
I didnt change much the layout

- control to capslock
- left_cmd to ctrl
- fn as toggle layer
- wasd as dedicated arrows

I really enjoy this layout now 

[sth]

Personally the ~ being on the main layer is a waste.

this is a unix layout keyboard, designed by a unix user for unix users - the ~ key is very useful on the main layer to me

[dustinhxc]

You're welcome! joeyquinn helped me!

[TopreFan333]

Holy cow.. This looks really nice.. I'm very particular with monospace fonts that I stare at all day and this one definitely makes the cut.  Ill have to try it out for a few days, thank you!

Great, right? I use it a lot at work too, in Sublime Text, usually in a light-on-dark theme.

[ctm]

I like having spacebar as a dual-role space and fn. Also, I like having the left ctrl as dual-role ctrl and esc ( I use Vim so esc is important to me).

[keshley]

SpaceFn pretty nice so far. I do notice the delay in the space for regular typing, but it hasn't caused any kind of typos so far, so guess I'll be able to adjust easily

[ajx]

My number one suggestion is to start using spaceFn.
Or in other words, using the space bar (when held down) as your function key.

Then make an arrow cluster with home, end, page up, page down, etc around it.
(For example IJKL is my spacefn layer arrow cluster)

You will be surprised how easy this is to get used to and how much of a pain moving your hand to an actual arrow cluster is later.


NOTE - If you are a gamer I would recommend also having a toggle layer that does not have spaceFn or any other special keys enabled as they will often mess with the controls in games (think of this as your gaming layer)

I was previously using a toggle to activate arrow cluster then i realized there is something i can do in order to improve the ergonomic
I ve made a layout similar to your thought

- holding space makes wasd into arrows cluster
- instead of rALT, i re-mapped a toggle layer that gives me a layout without modified space that acts normally
- a third layout with arrows clusters but with toggle (FN), for some games/softwares which space may have coflict

Long life to the space as FN 

[tararais]

I know it's probably not possible, but I'd love it if there was a mode to swap the PL;, keys for arrows. In games using arrow keys (which generally use left side keyboard + mouse), it would be great to not have to do Twister to get all the commands in. Plus, it makes browsing a little easier.

[saturnotaku]

I'd add a couple items from the KBParadise V60: 1) Put in a DIP switch to change the control key to fn; 2) Add an arrow cluster to WASD and either move or eliminate the Mac-only media controls.

[ajx]

I know it's probably not possible, but I'd love it if there was a mode to swap the PL;, keys for arrows. In games using arrow keys (which generally use left side keyboard + mouse), it would be great to not have to do Twister to get all the commands in. Plus, it makes browsing a little easier.

If you want to use those keys  as arrows cluster, you must add an toggle mod for FN
This is only possible with TMK layout
There is a thread about TMK USB converter which allows you to use it (on review's section)

[tararais]

I know it's probably not possible, but I'd love it if there was a mode to swap the PL;, keys for arrows. In games using arrow keys (which generally use left side keyboard + mouse), it would be great to not have to do Twister to get all the commands in. Plus, it makes browsing a little easier.

If you want to use those keys  as arrows cluster, you must add an toggle mod for FN
This is only possible with TMK layout
There is a thread about TMK USB converter which allows you to use it (on review's section)

OOO super interesting, I'll take a look. Do you know if it can help with numpad as well?

[ajx]

What kind of help with the numpad?
You can tweak the layout whatever you want
I have myself several layers on my layout
- arrow clusters with space
- arrow clusters with toggle FN
-  normal space (not acting as FN when holding it)
You can add several layers, the whole customization is wide

[ssdt]

Wait, what? Can I change the FN of the HHKB with just the USB to USB converter?

[ajx]

Yes you can with Hasu USB to USB converter, read this review somewhere in first page from review's section

[ssdt]

Yes you can with Hasu USB to USB converter, read this review somewhere in first page from review's section

But that does not make sense to me. I would need another controller for the board, don't I?

In the review it clearly says:

The converter can't read Fn keys on boards like the Poker, since those keys are handled internally (boards don't send keycodes when the Fn key is pressed). Any functions or layers already programmed on the board will still work from behind the converter, but the converter has no way of knowing whether the keycodes it's receiving came from a Fn command. Any other key can be set up as a Fn key, so you can do things like SpaceFn with the converter. You can even daisy-chain converters...

[ajx]

In a word, you can emulates another key as FN

[Bromono]

To improve the HHKB layout, I would buy a Realforce 87U, thank you.

[ssdt]

In a word, you can emulates another key as FN

I see, there was a misunderstanding. I should have said 'modify', i guess.

[tararais]

What kind of help with the numpad?
You can tweak the layout whatever you want
I have myself several layers on my layout
- arrow clusters with space
- arrow clusters with toggle FN
-  normal space (not acting as FN when holding it)
You can add several layers, the whole customization is wide

 
 
I use an alternate layout, so it will send the copy/paste command as the original key location (so in DV it'll be Ctrl+J and K rather than Ctrl+C and V). I was wondering if I could modify it to send a different stroke to fix it.