[IC] SA SAIL (GB Live!)

[tex_live_utility]

Putting in my vote for 1-2-3-3-3-4 sculpt for the whole kit.

[mimalik]

My pref is with profile as is: 112343

[Fredington]

Putting in my vote for 1-2-3-3-3-4 sculpt for the whole kit.

My pref is with profile as is: 112343

Based on how the poll is going, sculpt will likely remain 1-1-2-3-4-3.

[BalticSubmarine]

Love the look of the set will be supporting this for sure. I think that 1-2-3-3-3-3 would be best but that's just my two cents.

[Fredington]

Just wanted to give you guys a small update and show you how I've been refining some of the legends to be more like the inspiration. Please see comparisons below:



I bet you guys didn't even notice these were off but wanted to let you know that I'm taking the legends very seriously so that they'll be as | A E S T H E T I C | as possible.

DISCLAIMER: These changes may or may not make it into the renders but rest assured they will be in the final product.

[donutcat]

--Added 1800 layout support to Numpad

Nifty, might be the first SP set for me to consider in some time as long as the pricing is there.

[BalticSubmarine]

Just wanted to give you guys a small update and show you how I've been refining some of the legends to be more like the inspiration. Please see comparisons below:

Show Image

I bet you guys didn't even notice these were off but wanted to let you know that I'm taking the legends very seriously so that they'll be as | A E S T H E T I C | as possible.

DISCLAIMER: These changes may or may not make it into the renders but rest assured they will be in the final product.

Wow nice attention to detail! Looking forward to this more and more!

[Fredington]

Poll has been closed, as the option to keep the kits the same (no changes) has won by a landslide. You can view the results below:



Also, I made a small change to the Numpad, replacing LOCK with NUM LOCK. Other than that, I consider the kits to be pretty final (barring any major errors) and will be submitting them to SP soon for updated pricing. If there's anything you're dying to have added, please let me know in the form.

[mimalik]

Gr8, apologize if this has been answered already, but what is GB drop date??

[Fredington]

Gr8, apologize if this has been answered already, but what is GB drop date??

Targeting some time in Q1 2020.

[StormyMonday]

I'm interested in robust ortho support. Following along to see how this turns out.

[Fate]

Also VERY interested in robust ortho support. I'm in if that happens!

[tex_live_utility]

What does robust ortho support even mean? Covering all the 10 million ways to put legends on the outer edges of the keyboard?

[Fredington]

I'm interested in robust ortho support. Following along to see how this turns out.

Also VERY interested in robust ortho support. I'm in if that happens!

What does robust ortho support even mean? Covering all the 10 million ways to put legends on the outer edges of the keyboard?

Would have to agree for anyone reading this go forward that these types of comments are not helpful. If you want specific keys added, you need to specify. I am not an ortho user and am unsure what robust ortho means.

Regardless in this case, I plan on keeping the ortho/40s kit pretty tight for costing reasons.

[StormyMonday]

First round pricing has been received from SP and it's not exactly where I wanted it to be. I've made the decision to scale back the Ortho/40s kit slightly in order to get better costing across the board. My sincere apologies for those that this change affects, but I believe the Ortho/40s kit still offers a good range of compatibility in key sizes and profiles if not legends.

See below for full CHANGELOG:

--Removed extra R1 CALL key from Modifiers
--Added 1800 layout support to Numpad
--Scaled back Ortho/40s kit slightly for costing reasons

In other news, "Keep the kits as they are (no changes)" is currently winning over "Convert entire set to uniform R3" by quite a bit. Poll will remain open until Sunday, but if this trend continues, the good news is that there won't be a R3 monokit to add further cost to the set.

Render updates are being worked on.

Remember to fill out the interest check form! Thank you all for the great response so far!

Major kit update in the OP. Also added the below changelog:

CHANGE LOG:
--Split the Base kit into Alphas and Modifiers
--Expanded the ISO kit slightly and incorporated the VT key into the Modifiers
--Added ortho/40s kit with fairly robust 40s support
--Added split spacebars kit
--Added ∑ novelties to the Alphas and Numpad kits
--Replaced 2U BS with BACKSPACE; smaller BS keys left unchanged
--Shuffled around the 65% right column keys and incorporated the legends into the TKL nav cluster

New renders are incoming!

Reminder to please fill out the form!

I'm interested in robust ortho support. Following along to see how this turns out.

Also VERY interested in robust ortho support. I'm in if that happens!

What does robust ortho support even mean? Covering all the 10 million ways to put legends on the outer edges of the keyboard?

Would have to agree for anyone reading this go forward that these types of comments are not helpful. If you want specific keys added, you need to specify. I am not an ortho user and am unsure what robust ortho means.

Regardless in this case, I plan on keeping the ortho/40s kit pretty tight for costing reasons.

Right off of the bat, you mention that ortho support is is being scaled back. Then, you brag on your "robust" (your words) ortho support. Then you mention that you are scaling back the ortho kit (again!) for cost reasons. Next, you say that ortho support will be kept pretty tight.

IMHO, it is reasonable to be concerned, in light of your own comments, that ortho support may be cut back even more, if folks do not raise their hands and make it known that ortho support is precisely why they are interested in this kit; hence my post. I'm puzzled as to why you wouldn't find it helpful/valuable to know that a prospective participant's interest is based solely in whether the kit continues to maintain a decent level of ortho support. Frankly, I find your reaction to be both puzzling and troubling. All I'm saying is that if ortho support continues to be pared back, I'm no longer interested. After all, I thought that was why we are here ... for an interest check.

[Fredington]

First round pricing has been received from SP and it's not exactly where I wanted it to be. I've made the decision to scale back the Ortho/40s kit slightly in order to get better costing across the board. My sincere apologies for those that this change affects, but I believe the Ortho/40s kit still offers a good range of compatibility in key sizes and profiles if not legends.

See below for full CHANGELOG:

--Removed extra R1 CALL key from Modifiers
--Added 1800 layout support to Numpad
--Scaled back Ortho/40s kit slightly for costing reasons

In other news, "Keep the kits as they are (no changes)" is currently winning over "Convert entire set to uniform R3" by quite a bit. Poll will remain open until Sunday, but if this trend continues, the good news is that there won't be a R3 monokit to add further cost to the set.

Render updates are being worked on.

Remember to fill out the interest check form! Thank you all for the great response so far!

Major kit update in the OP. Also added the below changelog:

CHANGE LOG:
--Split the Base kit into Alphas and Modifiers
--Expanded the ISO kit slightly and incorporated the VT key into the Modifiers
--Added ortho/40s kit with fairly robust 40s support
--Added split spacebars kit
--Added ∑ novelties to the Alphas and Numpad kits
--Replaced 2U BS with BACKSPACE; smaller BS keys left unchanged
--Shuffled around the 65% right column keys and incorporated the legends into the TKL nav cluster

New renders are incoming!

Reminder to please fill out the form!

I'm interested in robust ortho support. Following along to see how this turns out.

Also VERY interested in robust ortho support. I'm in if that happens!

What does robust ortho support even mean? Covering all the 10 million ways to put legends on the outer edges of the keyboard?

Would have to agree for anyone reading this go forward that these types of comments are not helpful. If you want specific keys added, you need to specify. I am not an ortho user and am unsure what robust ortho means.

Regardless in this case, I plan on keeping the ortho/40s kit pretty tight for costing reasons.

Right off of the bat, you mention that ortho support is is being scaled back. Then, you brag on your "robust" (your words) ortho support. Then you mention that you are scaling back the ortho kit (again!) for cost reasons. Next, you say that ortho support will be kept pretty tight.

IMHO, it is reasonable to be concerned, in light of your own comments, that ortho support may be cut back even more, if folks do not raise their hands and make it known that ortho support is precisely why they are interested in this kit; hence my post. I'm puzzled as to why you wouldn't find it helpful/valuable to know that a prospective participant's interest is based solely in whether the kit continues to maintain a decent level of ortho support. Frankly, I find your reaction to be both puzzling and troubling. All I'm saying is that if ortho support continues to be pared back, I'm no longer interested. After all, I thought that was why we are here ... for an interest check.

I scaled back the 40s kit once after first round pricing. Hence my desire to now keep things tight. And for the most part, the ortho keys weren't touched.

What keys do you think are missing exactly?

[StormyMonday]

I have no way of knowing precisely what may have already been cut, I have only the posted render and your statements to go by.

My anxiety does not derive from a missing key(s), but from my concern that additional cost cuts will be made, unless folks make it known that ortho support is important to them.

[Fredington]

I have no way of knowing precisely what may have already been cut, I have only the posted render and your statements to go by.

My anxiety does not derive from a missing key(s), but from my concern that additional cost cuts will be made, unless folks make it known that ortho support is important to them.

I don't plan on making additional cuts, as I'm pretty happy where updated pricing has landed, which I hope to be able to share soon along with vendors and a date.

[StormyMonday]

Thanks very much for the clarification.

This is a beautiful set; I look forward to seeing the final details.

[angelax]

This color is beautiful! Looking forward to the GB launch!

[AJM]

I would be interested in this set, too.
Although I would usually consider sets only, if they have a NorDe kit, I can understand, why wouldn't want to bother with it in this special case.
All I would ask is, that the BACKSPACE in the Modifiers kit would get the legend "BS" as it can be found on the original keyboard.

[Fredington]

I would be interested in this set, too.
Although I would usually consider sets only, if they have a NorDe kit, I can understand, why wouldn't want to bother with it in this special case.
All I would ask is, that the BACKSPACE in the Modifiers kit would get the legend "BS" as it can be found on the original keyboard.

Thank you for your interest. The 2u Backspace was indeed BS in my original design but I felt it looked too unbalanced on such a large key. I have kept it on the smaller keys like 1.5u and 1u.

[equalunique]

Glad to see an otho set as part of this. Since it's a kit with (wonderfully) weird alphas, a mods kit for weird boards seems like the natural and right choice.

[AJM]

... The 2u Backspace was indeed BS in my original design but I felt it looked too unbalanced on such a large key. I have kept it on the smaller keys like 1.5u and 1u.

I understand, but the whole point of this set is "being quirky". So I would still prefer "BS".

[gbchk]

... The 2u Backspace was indeed BS in my original design but I felt it looked too unbalanced on such a large key. I have kept it on the smaller keys like 1.5u and 1u.

I understand, but the whole point of this set is "being quirky". So I would still prefer "BS".

When did OP ever say that the whole point of this set is "being quirky"?

[nickaster1]

Hey just wonder if we’ll be able to see color samples before the GB start?

[Fredington]

Hey just wonder if we’ll be able to see color samples before the GB start?

Working on it. I'll make an update on this tomorrow.

[AaronR]

would it be possible to get a render of the set on a white/silver keyboard?

[Fredington]

would it be possible to get a render of the set on a white/silver keyboard?

New renders are being worked on.

[d00deitsnik]

Thank you for your interest. The 2u Backspace was indeed BS in my original design but I felt it looked too unbalanced on such a large key. I have kept it on the smaller keys like 1.5u and 1u.

I kinda like how the 2u Backspace looks with BS and the extra space. Would you consider adding it as an extra mod? I know it'll drive the price up, but it might be something to think about.

[Fredington]

Thank you for your interest. The 2u Backspace was indeed BS in my original design but I felt it looked too unbalanced on such a large key. I have kept it on the smaller keys like 1.5u and 1u.

I kinda like how the 2u Backspace looks with BS and the extra space. Would you consider adding it as an extra mod? I know it'll drive the price up, but it might be something to think about.

Probably not. The Modifiers kit is already looking to be the most expensive kit by quite a bit and I am not looking to add keys to it. I don't have a huge preference one way or the other, but I'm also not looking to run another poll about it since I already ran one for the sculpt. Unless a ton of people come out of the woodwork and say they prefer BS, then it'll probably stay as it is. In fact, I'll probably change the 1.75u BS in the 40s kit to Backspace, as well.

Since the BS key in the inspiration is 1.5u, we have to take some creative liberties for keys larger than that, and I've taken the decision that Backspace looks better.

Another thing to keep in mind is that BS is a new mold and each BS key of differing size adds another mold cost to the total. By using Backspace for 2u and 1.75u, we can save some costs to the consumer.

[d00deitsnik]

Thank you for your interest. The 2u Backspace was indeed BS in my original design but I felt it looked too unbalanced on such a large key. I have kept it on the smaller keys like 1.5u and 1u.

I kinda like how the 2u Backspace looks with BS and the extra space. Would you consider adding it as an extra mod? I know it'll drive the price up, but it might be something to think about.

Probably not. The Modifiers kit is already looking to be the most expensive kit by quite a bit and I am not looking to add keys to it. I don't have a huge preference one way or the other, but I'm also not looking to run another poll about it since I already ran one for the sculpt. Unless a ton of people come out of the woodwork and say they prefer BS, then it'll probably stay as it is. In fact, I'll probably change the 1.75u BS in the 40s kit to Backspace, as well.

Since the BS key in the inspiration is 1.5u, we have to take some creative liberties for keys larger than that, and I've taken the decision that Backspace looks better.

Another thing to keep in mind is that BS is a new mold and each BS key of differing size adds another mold cost to the total. By using Backspace for 2u and 1.75u, we can save some costs to the consumer.

I didn't realize there was so much to consider when it came to these decisions. I support your decision and appreciate your response. I learned so much today. 

[GR1NN1NGC4T]

I'm really excited for that SA Set, so I'm keeping track 

I love the colours and the keysets... gonna get myself a set, for sure. 

[Fredington]

I have selected a new Pantone, PQ-7716C, for the purpose of better color matching with plastics (this is what the PQ- prefix indicates). The previous Pantone with the -TCX suffix was designed for textiles. Although you may say a Pantone is a Pantone, this should hopefully streamline the process even more and reduce the margin for errors.

This new Pantone is slightly more saturated than the previous one, and I think everyone will be very happy with it. Here is a photo:



I've also finalized the custom legends SVG file and sent them in for sampling! I'll update with an ETA once I have it.

Finally, a couple of kit revisions:

--Changed 1.75u BS key in 40s kit to BACKSPACE for aesthetic and costing reasons, as mentioned three posts up from this one
--Removed \∞ from Ortho kit after mocking up a Preonic for a new render, as I believe exceedingly few people will use this key

[horchata771]

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Introducing SA SAIL

Based on the SAIL (Stanford AI Lab) keyboard created by Les Earnest, inventor of the Finger protocol. SAIL itself was started by John McCarthy, inventor of the LISP programming language. The SAIL keyboard inspired the Knight keyboard, which in turn inspired the LISP Machine CADR and Space Cadet keyboards. The keyboard features beautiful teal keycaps and a mix of APL and Greek top legends, as opposed to the Space Cadet keyboard where the Greek legends are on the front of the keys. The SAIL keyboard also introduced the META and TOP keys.

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A couple of interesting quirks about the keyboard should be noted:

--The digit 0 key is to the left of the 1 key.
--The punctuation legends placement is quite different from modern keyboards (more on that later).


Colors

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Interest Check Google Form


Kits

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Renders

RAMA U80-A

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Iron165

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FAQs

Are these 7bit’s or hhkbp2’s legends?   No, I drew these myself. See below comparison:

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NE NorDe (or Colevrak) avail?   Due to the “wrong” punctuation legend placement in relation to modern keyboards and the fact that a new mold would need to be created for each key if I wanted it to have the “correct” top legend according to the inspiration, I have decided not to provide a NorDe kit. More importantly, I don’t even know what that would look like, since it would definitely require some rearranging of the punctuation legends in a way that would go against how they are laid out in the alphas. Same thing goes for Colevrak. Instead, I’ve provided a basic ISO kit with two options to cover the extra key: *⊗ or \∞. The ∑s in the Alphas kit should also help in this regard. Since even the base ANSI layout has the “wrong” punctuation legend placement, I think it is not as egregious in this case that ISO layouts have the wrong legends as well.

What's with the ∑ keys?   Originally conceived as a single key to help solve the problem of the extra key for ISO layouts, I decided to make one for every row to give the set a nice pizazz that fits well within the math theme of the set.


To-Do

Feedback - Pending
Quotes & samples from SP - Pending
Vendors - Pending
New renders - Pending
Launch GB


Acknowledgements

Hhkbp2/Jiezhou for all the detailed advice about custom fonts and running a GB through SP
Abec13 for the beautiful renders and advice on formatting the IC and the 40s kit
depletedvespene for the advice about the ISO kit and the idea for the ∑ keys


Changelog

11/25/19
--Changed 1.75u BS key in 40s kit to BACKSPACE
--Removed \∞ from Ortho kit after mocking up a Preonic for a new render, as I believe exceedingly few people will use this key
--Selected a new Pantone for better color matching to plastics, PQ-7716C
--SAMPLES REQUESTED!!!

11/18/19
--Replaced LOCK with NUM LOCK in the Numpad kit
--Updated various legends to be more faithful to the inspiration

11/12/19
--Removed extra R1 CALL key from Modifiers
--Added 1800 layout support to Numpad
--Scaled back Ortho/40s kit slightly for costing reasons

11/8/19
--Split the Base kit into Alphas and Modifiers
--Expanded the ISO kit slightly and incorporated the VT key into the Modifiers
--Added ortho/40s kit with fairly robust 40s support
--Added split spacebars kit
--Added ∑ novelties to the Alphas and Numpad kits
--Replaced 2U BS with BACKSPACE; smaller BS keys left unchanged
--Shuffled around the 65% right column keys and incorporated the legends into the TKL nav cluster


If you'd like to support this project, please use the banner below:

Code: [Select]

[url=https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=103307.0][img]https://i.imgur.com/4kfOlRl.jpg[/img][/url]

Dawwwgggg, I need me a set of them alphas! Noice work! Always wondered when I would see a tensor product symbol on a cap. Guess I've seen it all now. Consider me a future customer. Do you think there is any chance of a set of trig functions? I.e. sin, cos, etc. Say in a novelty set?

[Fredington]

Do you think there is any chance of a set of trig functions? I.e. sin, cos, etc. Say in a novelty set?

Probably not, as the set is already pushing prices that I'm not comfortable with. I consider the kits to be pretty final at this point and will probably remove the feedback portion of the IC form soon.

[GR1NN1NGC4T]

I love the choice for the more strikling teal colour. Can't wait for the GB! Will definetly get myself a set!

[bliss]

I'm not worthy

This must have been a ton of work, incredible! Form filled, interested in this for a 100% ANSI build. That means I hope there will be both an EU proxy and a friendly MOQ for the numpad, which should be doable with SP

Love the oldskool science air, would/will use this for research purposes (even AI) on my workstation, and not for gaming or something

EDIT: typo

[FRANCO]

I don't even know what keyboard I'm gonna put this on, but I love vintage-inspired sets! I'm in!

[AaronR]

Is there any idea yet when the GB might be?

[Fredington]

Is there any idea yet when the GB might be?

Targeting the latter part of Q1 2020.

UPDATE: So SP finally got back to me regarding samples. Apparently, they don’t mix custom colors until they receive the order, so unfortunately samples will have to wait until after the GB. I don’t see much of a point going through the process now, only to receive samples in a random color that is in no way representative of the final product. Sorry to get everyone’s hopes up, but now we can focus on finalizing the details of the GB.

So without further ado, I’m happy to announce the vendors for SA SAIL:

NA: NovelKeys
Canada: DeskHero
EU: MyKeyboard
Asia: iLumkb
Oceania: DailyClack

Kits have been finalized with a couple small changes:

--Moved 1800 support from the Numpad to the Modifiers, as pricing for the Numpad was coming in a little high compared to its MOQ
--Added options for R1 and R2 Backspace (BS) and Delete (CLEAR) (and vice versa) to the ortho kit

OP has been updated as per above.

I will submit the kits to SP for final costing today, after which I will work with the vendors on kit pricing and finalizing a date for the GB.

Other than that, the only thing I'm waiting on are new renders from Abec13. Due to the time of year, I wouldn't expect the next update until after the holidays.

Finally, even though the kits are finalized, please consider filling out the form if you haven't already, as it's still very helpful to me and the vendors. Cheers!

[horchata771]

So looking forward for this one!

[Fredington]

So looking forward for this one!

Before you edited your response above, if you were referring to sin/cos/tan keys like you mentioned previously, there is no chance for that.

However, I would consider moving the ∑s into a separate kit like the below if the response is good (and possibly offering a blank ergo kit). I know I already said the kits are locked, and this would really be the last change.

[IOVERCALLHISTIOCYTES]

Like the maths kit. Would use for arrow cluster.

[jrs]

Why SA and not MT3?  I've heard that MT3 is a lot better to type on.

[ullr]

Why SA and not MT3?  I've heard that MT3 is a lot better to type on.

SA is doubleshot, which permits legends to be lighter than the cap. This is impossible with traditional dye-sub techniques, which is what most MT3 sets have used. Doubleshot MT3 is unproven, and there is no reason to believe they will make a couple dozen extra doubleshot toolings for a set/designer with no relationship with Drop.

[horchata771]

Before you edited your response above, if you were referring to sin/cos/tan keys like you mentioned previously, there is no chance for that.

However, I would consider moving the ∑s into a separate kit like the below if the response is good (and possibly of offering a blank ergo kit). I know I already said the kits are locked, and this would really be the last change.

I like the idea of a maths kit. An integral symbol really rounds out the sets. The sin/cos was just a thought when I posted before. I was just wondering in my last post about having an expanded math symbol set. If there is enough interest to add a math set, I'm definitely in!

[ihalatch]

Before you edited your response above, if you were referring to sin/cos/tan keys like you mentioned previously, there is no chance for that.

However, I would consider moving the ∑s into a separate kit like the below if the response is good (and possibly of offering a blank ergo kit). I know I already said the kits are locked, and this would really be the last change.

I like the idea of a maths kit. An integral symbol really rounds out the sets. The sin/cos was just a thought when I posted before. I was just wondering in my last post about having an expanded math symbol set. If there is enough interest to add a math set, I'm definitely in!

+1

[Fredington]

Alright, well I added a couple questions about a potential novelty kit and ergo blanks to the form. Please let me know your thoughts. If you've filled out the form already, you should be able to edit your response. Thank you!

[IOVERCALLHISTIOCYTES]

Edited my previous form. Thank you!