Author Topic: Modifying ML keycaps to work with Kailh Low Profile Switches  (Read 13676 times)

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Offline kurplop

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Modifying ML keycaps to work with Kailh Low Profile Switches
« on: Wed, 06 September 2017, 19:36:26 »
There has been a buzz in the keyboard community recently among fans of smaller form keyboards. Months ago, a few among us had gotten their hands on Kailh's new low profile switches. They have a 1.5mm throw to actuation (3mm total) and are roughly half the height of a typical switch  making them desirable for portable/travel keyboards. Until now, the Cherry ML has been the only reasonable sub-standard sized option, but complaints about scratchiness and sticky off-presses have prevented their universal acceptance among mechanical keyboard aficionado. Reports from reliable sources have given high marks to the new Kailh switch given its compact size.

The problem now is caps. Manufacturers are just now beginning to offer compatible keycaps for the PG1350 but only in a flat, laptop style profile. I prefer a cylindrical dish profile for better feedback and was looking for another option.

The stem depressions in the 1350 is similar to the Cherry ML but the Cherry's off-centered placement keeps the cap from allowing the switches full range of travel. I considered either casting all new caps out of resin but preferred having legends and was looking for a less labor intensive process that would yield consistent results. I decided to try taking the prongs from a donor cap and adhering it to another that had the prongs removed. This would allow the centering necessary for full travel.

The first step was to make a jig and cutting the cap top to the desired size.

A scrap of aluminum is being roughed in to accept a ML cap.
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I milled a groove to further assist the holes for the cap prongs to keep the cap from moving under the milling forces.
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Using a low speed, the mill cut the plastic cleanly and without burning.
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The contour on the cap top was later sanded down flat to better conform to the other cap's underside.
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Here it is glued up using CA adhesive. The donor cap was cut to perfectly fit the underside of the other cap. As it turned out there was a little play in the vertical direction so my next cut will be adjusted for that. Matching the two pieces closely is necessary for consistent indexing and final results.
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The fit is good. The cap lays flat with the switch housing and has full range of motion.
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It should take about a minute to mount the donor cap, mill it, and remove it from the jig. Sanding the cap top flush, glueing pieces together, and misc. clean up another minute or two. I should be able to prep 55 caps for my next keyboard in less than 3 hours, which is a lot faster than casting or milling a whole set.

Offline SpAmRaY

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Re: Modifying ML keycaps to work with Kailh Low Profile Switches
« Reply #1 on: Wed, 06 September 2017, 20:30:13 »
I wanna be like kurplop when I grow up.

Amazing work as always.

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Offline kurplop

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Re: Modifying ML keycaps to work with Kailh Low Profile Switches
« Reply #2 on: Wed, 06 September 2017, 21:21:38 »
I wanna be like kurplop when I grow up.

Amazing work as always.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk



Ha! Thanks Spamray. The only difference between us is that I have a manual mill in my shop.

Offline bort

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Re: Modifying ML keycaps to work with Kailh Low Profile Switches
« Reply #3 on: Wed, 06 September 2017, 21:34:14 »
Awesome! Very impressive

Are the ML stems an exact fit for the Kailh switches?

I've heard mixed reports about this over the past couple of weeks and am having trouble tracking down actual dimensions/documentation for the Kailh switches.

Offline TalkingTree

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Re: Modifying ML keycaps to work with Kailh Low Profile Switches
« Reply #4 on: Thu, 07 September 2017, 03:00:06 »
So much creativity and cleverness in one single man.
I'm amazed.
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Offline Vladimir

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Re: Modifying ML keycaps to work with Kailh Low Profile Switches
« Reply #5 on: Thu, 07 September 2017, 04:07:28 »
Awesome! Very impressive

Are the ML stems an exact fit for the Kailh switches?

I've heard mixed reports about this over the past couple of weeks and am having trouble tracking down actual dimensions/documentation for the Kailh switches.

The stem depressions in the 1350 is similar to the Cherry ML but the Cherry's off-centered placement keeps the cap from allowing the switches full range of travel. I considered either casting all new caps out of resin but preferred having legends and was looking for a less labor intensive process that would yield consistent results. I decided to try taking the prongs from a donor cap and adhering it to another that had the prongs removed. This would allow the centering necessary for full travel.
 
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Offline 0100010

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Re: Modifying ML keycaps to work with Kailh Low Profile Switches
« Reply #6 on: Thu, 07 September 2017, 08:07:53 »
Guess you could mill out the underside of the ML caps a bit, to allow lower overall profile height when adding the Kailh stems.  :p

Or - instead of sanding the tops of the Kailh stems, why not just uniform the top of them with the mill?
  Quoting me causes a posting error that you need to ignore.

Offline kurplop

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Re: Modifying ML keycaps to work with Kailh Low Profile Switches
« Reply #7 on: Thu, 07 September 2017, 10:11:43 »
Guess you could mill out the underside of the ML caps a bit, to allow lower overall profile height when adding the Kailh stems.  :p

Or - instead of sanding the tops of the Kailh stems, why not just uniform the top of them with the mill?

Good thoughts. Ideally, it would be nice to keep the cap as low as possible, but milling the underside would probably be more difficult to properly support and clamp while milling. Even with a pretty tight fit, I had a few of the caps lift from the milling process. It didn't damage anything but if the cap lifted while cutting the underside, it would punch a hole right through the cap face. The thinness of the cap would only allow about 1/32" of stock removed before it becomes unreliably thin anyways.

I did consider milling the stem tops but decided against it for two reasons. Once again, the jig might allow it to rise losing whatever added accuracy achieved by milling and also the 0.0625" bit already mounted wouldn't be very efficient. In the end, removing the contour on a disc sander only took about 10 seconds and is pretty easy to get a flat, even surface.

Awesome! Very impressive

Are the ML stems an exact fit for the Kailh switches?

I've heard mixed reports about this over the past couple of weeks and am having trouble tracking down actual dimensions/documentation for the Kailh switches.

I'm not sure if the ML prongs are an exact fit in the Kailh stems but it feels pretty good. I don't think they will be a problem at all.

Here are some details about the Kailh  low profile switch that may be helpful. 
 * Kailh low profile switch.pdf (579.7 kB - downloaded 301 times.)

Offline Russbo

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Re: Modifying ML keycaps to work with Kailh Low Profile Switches
« Reply #8 on: Thu, 07 September 2017, 18:34:20 »
Hi Kurplop, me again :D Your mill work is pretty darn impressive, nice job!

You mentioned laptop style caps that are being made, is there anywhere these can be purchased? I think they would suit the super low profile approach I'm going for quite nicely.

Offline kurplop

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Re: Modifying ML keycaps to work with Kailh Low Profile Switches
« Reply #9 on: Thu, 07 September 2017, 19:13:50 »
Hi Kurplop, me again :D Your mill work is pretty darn impressive, nice job!

You mentioned laptop style caps that are being made, is there anywhere these can be purchased? I think they would suit the super low profile approach I'm going for quite nicely.

I have recently seen full keyboards for sale using the switches and, apparently, caps are available. The one reference I saw for compatible caps was in Chinese. I read something about it in Deskthority but was unable to find it just now.

Offline kurplop

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Re: Modifying ML keycaps to work with Kailh Low Profile Switches
« Reply #10 on: Thu, 07 September 2017, 19:42:04 »
Here's what I found on Amazon. Odd that they have blue stems but it is clearly the Kailh Low Profile switch.

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Offline bort

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Re: Modifying ML keycaps to work with Kailh Low Profile Switches
« Reply #11 on: Thu, 07 September 2017, 22:48:31 »
I'm not sure if the ML prongs are an exact fit in the Kailh stems but it feels pretty good. I don't think they will be a problem at all.

Here are some details about the Kailh low profile switch that may be helpful. 
  (Attachment Link)

Yes! You are killing it! Exactly what I was looking for. Looks close enough to me... (Cherry ML left, Kailh low profile right)



(Source for ML pic/dimensions: http://cory.li/cherry-ml/)

Offline Tiramisuu

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Re: Modifying ML keycaps to work with Kailh Low Profile Switches
« Reply #12 on: Fri, 08 September 2017, 01:11:34 »
Nicely done.   Not sure I can emulate this with my dremel although I am looking for something closer to a g20
Keyboard error F1 to continue.

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Offline kurplop

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Re: Modifying ML keycaps to work with Kailh Low Profile Switches
« Reply #13 on: Fri, 08 September 2017, 14:42:05 »
Nicely done.   Not sure I can emulate this with my dremel although I am looking for something closer to a g20


Thanks. I think you're right. I've seen some impressive things made with hand operated tools, but getting uniformity in a large quantity would be quite a challenge.

Offline vim_commando

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Re: Modifying ML keycaps to work with Kailh Low Profile Switches
« Reply #14 on: Fri, 08 September 2017, 20:04:29 »

Thanks. I think you're right. I've seen some impressive things made with hand operated tools, but getting uniformity in a large quantity would be quite a challenge.

You've got that right.  :))




Offline kurplop

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Re: Modifying ML keycaps to work with Kailh Low Profile Switches
« Reply #15 on: Fri, 08 September 2017, 21:09:21 »
Today, I prepped all of  the parts for glueing up.

The PBT donor caps sanded down so easily I ended up sanding them by hand by dragging the surface across a piece of 150 grit sandpaper laying on the bench. It was easy to do and gave me more control. Leaving a small unsanded round spot in the center of the surface guaranteed consistent thickness across the top. I marked the upper end of the cap with a Sharpie. The prongs aren't exactly centered in the donor in order to actually center them into the top cap. After sanding off the legend it would be difficult to tell which end was suppose to be up.
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I found a pair of flush nippers and a sharp chisel made quick work of the prongs on the top cap.
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I think I will clean up some of the loose debris, then dip them in a mild detergent to remove any oils that could affect the bond before attaching the pieces. I plan on experimenting with both a thin and a thick bodied CA glue to determine the strongest and easiest one to work with.
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Offline wolf

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Re: Modifying ML keycaps to work with Kailh Low Profile Switches
« Reply #16 on: Thu, 14 September 2017, 04:13:35 »
Once again, excellent ideas and work from kurplop.  The finished result of your test one is fantastic.

Can't wait to see the finished board after you've fitted it out with your modified caps.
Have keyboard, will travel...

Offline Bella_Hwang

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Re: Modifying ML keycaps to work with Kailh Low Profile Switches
« Reply #17 on: Tue, 26 September 2017, 20:02:54 »
it's been long time,nicely job
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Offline LastBrat

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Re: Modifying ML keycaps to work with Kailh Low Profile Switches
« Reply #18 on: Wed, 27 September 2017, 13:56:08 »
Very interesting, looking forward to another progress report :)

Offline dante

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Re: Modifying ML keycaps to work with Kailh Low Profile Switches
« Reply #19 on: Wed, 27 September 2017, 14:14:04 »
On one hand this is really cool - but I cringe a bit thinking of this procedure being done on legacy dyesub ML caps.

Offline kurplop

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Re: Modifying ML keycaps to work with Kailh Low Profile Switches
« Reply #20 on: Wed, 27 September 2017, 14:52:53 »
Sorry it’s been so long posting. Too many other things going on. I did glue up all of the pieces and they appear to fit exactly where they should. I ended up using a thin bodied CA adhesive (super glue) and it seems to have made a strong bond. The slight negative slope on the cap top may be exaggerated with the build up but I won’t know for sure until I make the plates to set them in. I don’t think it will be an issue.

I decided to sand off the legends from some of the unused caps to use  as blanks for caps I didn’t have legends for. The dye was deeper than expected but the sanding caused little damage to the look of the cap. I’ll post pictures soon.

On one hand this is really cool - but I cringe a bit thinking of this procedure being done on legacy dyesub ML caps.

I guess I should feel bad about my role  in the pending extinction of  dye-subbed PBT ML caps from the world market, but I don’t. It wasn’t the first time I pulled a stunt like this and probably won’t be the last. I had bought a couple dozen donor boards a few years ago and figured it’s better doing something with them than just letting them sit in a box collecting dust.

« Last Edit: Wed, 27 September 2017, 14:54:46 by kurplop »

Offline LastBrat

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Re: Modifying ML keycaps to work with Kailh Low Profile Switches
« Reply #21 on: Wed, 27 September 2017, 15:23:29 »
I guess I should feel bad about my role  in the pending extinction of  dye-subbed PBT ML caps from the world market, but I don’t. It wasn’t the first time I pulled a stunt like this and probably won’t be the last. I had bought a couple dozen donor boards a few years ago and figured it’s better doing something with them than just letting them sit in a box collecting dust.

Sometimes I feel this is the only fate for all the DCS caps I have lying around :) I used some of them as "stem donors"to repair a few SA caps for my board. I've used a two component resin (this kneadable stuff), to fill all the unevenness and make up for the extra long SA stem. Not something I'd like to do to 70+ caps though...

Offline kurplop

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Re: Modifying ML keycaps to work with Kailh Low Profile Switches
« Reply #22 on: Wed, 27 September 2017, 18:50:31 »
I guess I should feel bad about my role  in the pending extinction of  dye-subbed PBT ML caps from the world market, but I don’t. It wasn’t the first time I pulled a stunt like this and probably won’t be the last. I had bought a couple dozen donor boards a few years ago and figured it’s better doing something with them than just letting them sit in a box collecting dust.

Sometimes I feel this is the only fate for all the DCS caps I have lying around :) I used some of them as "stem donors"to repair a few SA caps for my board. I've used a two component resin (this kneadable stuff), to fill all the unevenness and make up for the extra long SA stem. Not something I'd like to do to 70+ caps though...

I fear that history may, one day, judge us harshly.  :'(

Offline LastBrat

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Re: Modifying ML keycaps to work with Kailh Low Profile Switches
« Reply #23 on: Thu, 28 September 2017, 11:55:40 »
Quote
I fear that history may, one day, judge us harshly.  :'(

Ha ha, so true!