Considering a Thinkpad

[Phaedrus2129]

So I've heard a lot about Thinkpads being some of the best laptops. I've heard them described as the BMWs of the laptop world. So I'm thinking about getting one, but I want y'all's opinion.

This would be my... well, laptop. I'd use it for taking notes in class, use it when I want to use a computer without being in my room, take it on car/plane trips, use it as a calendar, etc. It doesn't need a whole lot of power, but I don't want to sit around too much waiting for stuff to load, either!



The one I'm looking at in particular is the T400 741722U:
http://www.superwarehouse.com/Lenovo...22U/ps/1570698

Core 2 Duo P8600 2.4Ghz
2GB DDR3 1066
Intel GMA 4500MHD
14" TFT 1280x800 (16:10)
250GB 5400RPM HDD
6-cell Li Ion battery
Windows 7 x32

It's $850 on the egg. In addition I'd probably throw in another 1GB of DDR3 ($20) and get a 9-cell backup battery ($70), for car trips and such. I'm also considering a 30GB Kingston SSD ($90) for it as a boot drive if I feel it needs it.

I like the fast processor and the TFT display. I've also heard several raves on the build quality, keyboard, minor features, etc. But the GMA4500 graphics are a bit of a bummer, as is the price tag.


So. Is a Thinkpad like this a good investment, or are they over-hyped?

[hyperlinked]

Are you specifically looking for a T400 or do you just want a Thinkpad? If you're just in the market for a Thinkpad, the T410 sold straight from the Lenovo site ends up cheaper after you factor in the better hardware and specs of the T410.
http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/e/web/LenovoPortal/en_US/catalog.workflow:category.details?current-catalog-id=12F0696583E04D86B9B79B0FEC01C087¤t-category-id=24ABE3A59126498186434450AAAFE461

It's $900 for a T410i
Intel Core i3-330M (2.13Ghz, 3Mb L3, 1066Mhz FSB)
Win 7 64
Intel Integrated Graphics
4Gb RAM
9 Cell battery
320Gb 7200 rpm drive

[Phaedrus2129]

I was looking at all of them, just picked out the T400 because it seemed a good value, but the T410i does seem a better deal.

[bhtooefr]

Generally, with ThinkPads, the best bet is to figure out what you want, and then look for the cheapest way to get it - which is usually through Lenovo's site, somehow.

And, old models are usually only cheaper if you get them from Lenovo. BTW, you might look at the Lenovo Outlet. Their site is down at the moment, but it's at: http://outlet.lenovo.com/

[hyperlinked]

I'd also throw in that I'd be wary of using NewEgg as a benchmark price point. They do have some unbelievable deals, but a lot of the stuff they sell is borderline overstock and either barely discounted or sometimes overpriced. They've got to make money somehow.

[hyperlinked]

Generally, with ThinkPads, the best bet is to figure out what you want, and then look for the cheapest way to get it - which is usually through Lenovo's site, somehow.

And, old models are usually only cheaper if you get them from Lenovo. BTW, you might look at the Lenovo Outlet. Their site is down at the moment, but it's at: http://outlet.lenovo.com/

BTW, I concur with bhtooefr here. I was close to getting a Thinkpad a couple of months ago and the best options appeared to be from the company itself. Plans changed and I had to cancel my shopping trip, but if I bought, it would have been at the Lenovo site.

[salcan]

T410 comes with some nice chassis improvement over the T400 so keep that in mind.

The "i" means you are getting a slightly stripped down system though, so Core i3 instead of Core i5, and there is no discrete graphics card available. It's a good option if you don't need a lot of power.

[Phaedrus2129]

How do you go about customizing one? I don't see anything on their site.

I could definitely live with a Core i3, they seem to perform similarly to high end Core 2s, so I'd be happy with that. But being able to have dedicated graphics would be a huge value added in my book, even just a GT220M, though a GT240M or GT330M (or ATI equivalents) or better would be great. Gaming isn't a requirement, but I would love to have the option.


EDIT: Scratch that, I see. The NVS 3100 looks like it should work... Not great but it'll work for me.

Does anyone know if the T410 has two hard drive slots? If so I'd choose the 320GB drive, then pick up a 30GB SSD and use that to boot from.

[bhtooefr]

You go through the main site, pick a base configuration that looks good, and then pick options (or, occasionally, REMOVE options) on top of that base configuration. There's usually a few different base configs, and they USUALLY don't overlap in options, although from what I've seen, if they do, the prices are the same.

[hyperlinked]

Does anyone know if the T410 has two hard drive slots? If so I'd choose the 320GB drive, then pick up a 30GB SSD and use that to boot from.

I don't know diddly about how Thinkpads are built, but I can't think of anything outside of the Alienware "luggage-tops" that would even have enough room for two hard drive bays. The T series is only a 14.1" screen so it's got even less real estate to work with.

[hyperlinked]

You go through the main site, pick a base configuration that looks good, and then pick options (or, occasionally, REMOVE options)

And if you're unlucky enough to be ordering from Dell's website, you spend your next 30 minutes refusing the extra stuff they try to sell you before you manage to get to your order completion page. Dell's ordering experience is a total nightmare.

[Phaedrus2129]

How does the build quality of the Dell XPS laptops compare to the T410?

[salcan]

If want two disks you can ditch the optical drive. Though you will have to make sure that the bay you get fits the T410.

[ricercar]

The Thinkpads I've owned are in a separate class from the Dell's I've owned. I can never recommend Dell.

There are only two laptops I'd consider buying new:
-ThinkPad (even after the Lenovo shift)
-MacBook

[kishy]

I can never recommend Dell.

I have yet to see someone actually elaborate on problems with Dells, just "dell sucks" and so forth. Aside from hinge failures depending on which case design you've got, they're pretty solid.

One thing we can all agree on, I hope: Dell kicks the crap out of HP/Compaq and Sony for laptop quality and longevity.

[JBert]

The Thinkpads I've owned are in a separate class from the Dell's I've owned. I can never recommend Dell.

There are only two laptops I'd consider buying new:
-ThinkPad (even after the Lenovo shift)
-MacBook

Ever tried Dell's "Latitude" business range laptops? Those can take a beating, I have a 7 years old one sitting on my home desk right now.

[itlnstln]

My Dell laptop (Latitude) has lasted over 3 years now without a problem.

[kishy]

My Dell laptop (Latitude) has lasted over 3 years now without a problem.

My Inspiron 630m was built in 2005 and has had one significant issue: the metal behind the LCD that the hinge screws onto fatigued and separated. I've ghetto-rigged a fix. No electronic issues except the keyboard transposes if I type really quickly...

I believe I'm the third owner.

[hyperlinked]

I have a Latitude D600 myself and I've been assigned Dells for work and they've all been pretty solid. That said, I've kept tabs on some reviews for Dells over the past few years and it does seem that they consistently have one lemon model somewhere in their lineup.

I don't know if they build them the same as they used to either. Dells weren't always affordable options. All the Dells I have experience with are from the days in which they were PC world's version of Apple and similarly priced.

[itlnstln]

My mom had an Inspiron that was a piece of ****, but I have had two Latitudes at work that have been great, so I figured her's was a fluke.  If I were to buy a laptop for myself, however, I would get a Lenovo.

[Phaedrus2129]

Well, I checked Dell's site and a Latitude would probably end up priced similarly to a Thinkpad, +/-10%. So I think if I had a choice I'd pick the Thinkpad since Manyak and a few other people rave about their Thinkpad keyboards. Also, the TFT displays are supposed to be very nice, and I'm not sure if Dell uses TFT or TN.

[42.tar.gz]

Also, the TFT displays are supposed to be very nice, and I'm not sure if Dell uses TFT or TN.

I always thought that the displays were one of the weakest parts of the current Thinkpad line? When I'm lurking in the german Thinkpad-Forum virtually everybody there is complaining about Lenovo not equipping their laptops with better displays.
I think most Thinkpads are using TN-panels. The only exceptions are (some/all?) tablet models, the W700/W701 and the old T6*-series which could be ordered with IPS ("Flexview") panels AFAIK (correct me if im wrong).
Don't know about Dell, though.

IMHO the HP Elitebook series is recommendable, too. I'm using a 6930p for about a year now and I don't have any real complaints. The display quality isn't spectacular either, though.

[ch_123]

It seems most of the problems with Lenovos (bad screens, flex in the keyboard, trackpads) can be solved by ordering an X200 series.

Good thing that I intend on ordering an X200 type whenever I put my trusty T61 out to pasture...

[bhtooefr]

Pretty much everyone uses TN.

The ThinkPad X200/X201 Tablet uses IPS or PVA, I believe, though.

[ricercar]

I have yet to see someone actually elaborate on problems with Dells

Oh, I have no problems with Dell hardware. I despise Michael Dell and his politics, his arrogance, and most of all his rudeness.

Ever tried Dell's "Latitude" business range laptops?

Yes, I used a 610 daily for years. No comparison to ThinkPad quality and feel. None. Lattitudes aren't low quality, they're average to above average, but not up to ThinkPad quality.

[hyperlinked]

Yes, I used a 610 daily for years. No comparison to ThinkPad quality and feel. None. Lattitudes aren't low quality, they're average to above average, but not up to ThinkPad quality.

That's true. I've never come away with this feeling like I really should get this laptop after using a Dell. I might be thinking that it's a pretty good laptop, but there's no burning desire to make the next laptop I own a Dell whereas the first time I used a Thinkpad, I thought "WTF is this? Want!"

I'd concur that the two laptops that really leave a lasting impression for me are Thinkpads and MacBooks. Well, the more recent MacBooks and the Classic Thinkpads. I don't know how I feel about the more recent Thinkpads as I haven't gotten my hands on a full sized Thinkpad yet.... just their 13" one that's something of a larger netbook.

[Phaedrus2129]

So is the X200 series considered better than the T400/T410 then?

And Lenovo's site claims a TFT panel for the T400/T410 series.

[bhtooefr]

TFT just means active matrix, normally - no laptop has had a passive matrix (STN, DSTN, CSTN) display since the mid 1990s or so.

TFT TN is more accurate. In 2010, TFT means nothing, any computer monitor will be a TFT.

The "good" models are the X series (but be careful it's at least 12.1", and doesn't have e anywhere in the model name,) the T series, and the W series.

However, the only non-TN ThinkPads in 2010 are tablets, which are variants of the X200 and X201.

[EverythingIBM]

Just go find a T42 for cheap. Or even a T40. If you're justing using it at school, you don't need anything incredibly expensive.

[ricercar]

the only non-TN ThinkPads in 2010 are tablets, which are variants of the X200 and X201.

Hmm? Are you saying the tablet thinkpads have inferior screens to non-tablet thinkpads? (this is a question, not a challenge)

[Phaedrus2129]

Manyak's just about convinced me of a T410. According to him it has only two downsides; the screen is just ok, with a low contrast ratio, and the speakers aren't great. The first I can live with, the latter doesn't matter since I have good headphones.

[bhtooefr]

I'm saying that the tablet ThinkPads have superior screens. Every tablet ThinkPad with a processor newer than a 486 has an IPS or PVA screen - from the X41 Tablet to the X201 Tablet.

The last non-tablet ThinkPad with an IPS screen is the T60p, which was discontinued in 2006.

(The 700T/710T/730T/730TE and 750P/360P have STN or DSTN displays, the 360PE has a CSTN display. Which is not the same as TFT TN.)

[EverythingIBM]

I'm saying that the tablet ThinkPads have superior screens. Every tablet ThinkPad with a processor newer than a 486 has an IPS or PVA screen - from the X41 Tablet to the X201 Tablet.

The last non-tablet ThinkPad with an IPS screen is the T60p, which was discontinued in 2006.

(The 700T/710T/730T/730TE and 750P/360P have STN or DSTN displays, the 360PE has a CSTN display. Which is not the same as TFT TN.)

My T60p says (C) 2007 at the bottom... I think you may want to recheck your dates. They made the T60p line for a very long time... the later models just had lenovo plastered on the screen, which, mine doesn't have thankfully.

As far as I am aware, the T61s have the same screens as the T60s: I've used both and they looked the same to me anyways (with the exception of the T61s being widescreen offering a more insane resolution, not many T60s were widescreen -- only the later models, and I hate widescreen anyhow).

[bhtooefr]

Yes, a 14.1" 4:3 or 15.4" 16:10 T61(p) has the same screens as a 14.1" 4:3 or 15.4" 16:10 T60(p). However, there is no 15.0 T61(p,) and the 15.0" T60p was the model that had the good screens.

And, my T60p actually says (C) 2005 on the bottom.

[EverythingIBM]

Yes, a 14.1" 4:3 or 15.4" 16:10 T61(p) has the same screens as a 14.1" 4:3 or 15.4" 16:10 T60(p). However, there is no 15.0 T61(p,) and the 15.0" T60p was the model that had the good screens.

And, my T60p actually says (C) 2005 on the bottom.

How fast is it? Mine is a 2.16 Ghz centrino duo. I'd suspect a 2005 one to be a lot slower.

[bhtooefr]

Centrino means absolutely nothing.

Is it Core 2 Duo, or Core Duo?

Mine's a 2.0 GHz Core Duo.

[Phaedrus2129]

Centrino means absolutely nothing.

Is it Core 2 Duo, or Core Duo?

Mine's a 2.0 GHz Core Duo.

What?

No such thing as Core Duo. Core 2 is a family of processors, with Core 2 Solo, Core 2 Duo, Core 2 Quad, Core 2 Extreme, and also Pentium Dual Core and some Celeron and Centrino processors being sub-families.

Perhaps you're thinking of Core 2 Duo vs. Pentium D? I don't think they made Pentium Ds for notebooks, too hot and power-hungry. Or Core 2 Duo vs. Pentium Dual Core? A Pentium Dual Core is just a Core 2 Duo with half its cache disabled, which gives it ~10% performance hit.

[bhtooefr]

What are these, then?

http://processorfinder.intel.com/List.aspx?ParentRadio=All&ProcFam=2278&SearchKey=

The Core Duo was Intel's first mobile dual core, and was basically two 65 nm versions of the Pentium M on one die.

[Phaedrus2129]

Ugh, Intel is weird. **** it.



Let's call over that robot Jeffry. He knows where it's at.

[Phaedrus2129]

Intel's butt /
Ne'er needed saving /
'Twas Jerry Sanders /
Who needed shaving /
Burma Shave





Anyway, Core 2 didn't save Intel, Pentium IV did. Athlon XP pretty much knocked Pentium III on its face and walked all over it. Great chips, I've got a 2600+ in my file server. But Pentium IV and its quad-pumped FSB was what really knocked AMD back down again, and they flooded the market with Pentium IVs. How many Pentium IV computers have you used? Compared to how many Athlon 64s?

Core 2 Duo just cemented Intel's position as top dog, especially against the first Athlon X2 and Phenom chips. They didn't start to feel any squeeze at all until Athlon/Phenom II came 'round, and then that was just a gentle squeeze like a father hugging his daughter good night. Now they've stepped in AMD's face again with Core i, and AMD flipped them the bird with Thuban.

[Phaedrus2129]

They did get a quarter billion out of that, yes. It's funding their new Bulldozer stuff. Pretty clear what they intend, though whether the bulldozer is full sized or something I'd give to my three-year-old nephew remains to be seen.

Though to be fair, this is what I gave my nephew for his birthday:

[kishy]

Centrino is not a CPU. Centrino is...oh whatever, use Google.

[vils]

The Core 2 Duo is the chip that saved Intel's butt.  Actually, it was the Israelis that saved Intel's butt.

Good article Ripster.
Reminds me of the old saying: Macintosh is catholic, Microsoft is Protestant but the processor is Jewish.

[J888www]

Centrino is a system/set up/configuration, not a single component.

[J888www]

How does the build quality of the Dell XPS laptops compare to the T410?

DO NOT BUY A DELL XPS. I have a M1330 , you have been WARNED, and naturally DELL will tell you the opposite.

nVidia 8000 series had a manufacturing defect, which they eventually admitted. My DELL XPS M1330 died after 4 Months of very very light usage, then needed a motherboard replacement. Sadly DELL replaced it with another surplus mobo which have the same issue.
The main gripe with DELL is that they still pushed out all their XPS laptops knowing that there were design faults by nVidia and also a design fault with their Thermal Module.

I enquired the cost of a 2x2cm piece of thermal pad for replacement to save time and cost for them to send out a technician again, DELL wanted £68 (delivery included), the actual cost of that piece of thermal pad = £0.08p  
DELL needs to rethink their Customer Relations Policy. I for one will not be purchasing from greedy DELL for an eternity.

[kishy]

Caps lock is cruise control for angry, apparently.

Thanks, however, for saying some intelligence about what Centrino is.

Ex: I have two Inspiron 630ms in the house.

Pentium M 740, 1.7GHz in both.
Intel 915 chipset in both.
Intel wireless card in one, Broadcom in the other.

One is Centrino. One is not. Wifi card makes the determination, in this case.

The BIOS even detects if the appropriate hardware combo is present and displays a logo if so. Centrino one displays Centrino logo, non Centrino one displays Pentium M logo. If I swap wifi cards the situation reverses.

[J888www]

Not anger, just not wishing someone to make a disheartening mistake, to see your new pride and joy which cost a hand & foot, then realise it's poo, all because of avaricious seller.

 Centrino also have different platforms/upgrades as technology advanced.

[vils]

Caps lock is cruise control for angry

Those words just became my signature on a different forum, credited to Kishy of course.

[kishy]

Not anger, just not wishing someone to make a disheartening mistake, to see your new pride and joy which cost a hand & foot, then realise it's poo, all because of avaricious seller.

 Centrino also have different platforms/upgrades as technology advanced.

Understandable. I for one haven't heard of problems with anything in the XPS line and I know numerous people who have XPS laptops of various generations including current, and all of them push the systems to the max as they game on them. You've had negative experiences so it's totally fair that you voice your thoughts on the seller, in this case Dell.

Yes, Centrino has varied over time, but the fact remains (as I believe you have already agreed) that there is no real "Centrino" CPU...virtually any recent mobile Intel CPU qualifies. "The" Centrino CPU was actually the Pentium M, if any, Intel's own marketing created that confusion, but the proper name is nonetheless Pentium M.

Those words just became my signature on a different forum, credited to Kishy of course.

Hey, I'm getting good enough to go in people's sigs...awesome!

Lol thanks.

[bhtooefr]

Indeed. Before the Core 2 Duo, AMD was actually getting their foot in the door with Athlon 64 X2-based systems, because they were cheaper, cooler, and faster than what Intel was spewing out in the Pentium 4 and Pentium D line.

And, AMD was doing some serious damage in the server room, too - Opterons absolutely clobbered Xeons at the time.