Ditching QWERTY and staggered layouts

[william]

I've always been a little perplexed by the popularity of QWERTY and staggered layouts, particularly with those who are worried about ergonomics, and I haven't really seen threads about it (though I haven't gone digging either).

So anyway, I'm curious to hear why people have stuck with the traditional layouts, or better yet, why you ditched them and what you've ended up with instead.


This is on a Cherry RC80BM I just got for $36 off of ebay, but before that I was using a Cherry G86-63400 that I had bought for around $85 thinking it was mechanical. Don't regret the purchase though, it is a fun keyboard.

Before those, I had got an ergodox as my first mechanical, and pretty much hated it. Also one day I went to use it and the cord was all ****ing hot, but I wasn't bummed out enough to fix it. After using this key layout on a ****ty gaming keyboard for a while I decided it was time to get a point of sale keyboard and see if I could make it work for me. I wish I would have tried it in the first place, a regular grid is great. nothing goony/gimmicky. Just straight forward and fun.

[dusan]

I'm a Dvorak typist but I don't think Dvorak layout is faster than QWERTY. It's just more comfortable.

Regarding physical layout, I'm building this matrix board, which is pretty similar to yours:

https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=64580.0;attach=81546;image

[vivalarevolución]

You might be interested in these keyboards:

http://ortholinearkeyboards.com/

[MajorMajor]

I'm a Dvorak typist but I don't think Dvorak layout is faster than QWERTY. It's just more comfortable.

Regarding physical layout, I'm building this matrix board, which is pretty similar to yours:

https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=64580.0;attach=81546;image

From what I have read, DVORAK can be quite a bit faster once you acclimate to it, which I think makes sense due to your fingers not needing to move as much. That being said, I'm 3 weeks into switching to DVORAK and I'm still around 30 WPM when I was at 90 WPM on QWERTY.

[dusan]

Can't wait to see if you can reach 100 - 120 WPM one day.

On Dvorak I'm at 80 wpm max, which is the same as my QWERTY performance the last time I could touch-type on it (20 years ago).

[william]

You might be interested in these keyboards: http://ortholinearkeyboards.com/

I was looking at those the other day and thought they looked pretty cool. I think I'd have to come up with a pretty good gaming layer to feel like the size isn't too restrictive to me though. I suppose figuring stuff like that out is the funnest parts of using a micro board.

Regarding physical layout, I'm building this matrix board, which is pretty similar to yours:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=64580.0;attach=81546;image

I haven't used a chorded layout before; is that what this is? I get a bit confused looking at these multi-layer layouts. I like the idea of laying out the numbers like that. There is something oddly satisfying about having things arranged in an way that is more logical.

[dusan]

Regarding physical layout, I'm building this matrix board, which is pretty similar to yours:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=64580.0;attach=81546;image

I haven't used a chorded layout before; is that what this is? I get a bit confused looking at these multi-layer layouts. I like the idea of laying out the numbers like that. There is something oddly satisfying about having things arranged in an way that is more logical.

No it should be a normal keyboard, not a chorded keyboard. The extra function layer(s) are just a suggestion and should be fully user-programmable. Basically I've tried to be maximally compatible with the standard layout while giving users some additional comforts such as better hand separation, better wrist angle, better position for  Backspace, Enter, Esc and modifier keys, support for one-hand / any-hand navigating and editing, and a few extra keys which can be programmed for editing macros like copy, paste, undo etc.

[brimborion]

Since my hands don't stick straight out of my chest like a Tyrannosaur, and I don't do home-row typing, it doesn't really matter if the keys are staggered or not.

I don't doubt if I typed "properly" it would be better to learn a more efficient layout, and it's likely that non-staggered keys are better as long as they face the same direction as my hands, but 90wpm has been enough for me for now.

Higher speeds are admirable and impressive, but not a goal at the top of the list.

[steve.v]

1. Ditched qwerty, learned Colemak, never went back.
2. Bought Ergodox.
3. One year in, going back to stagger keyboards.

I'm faster and more accurate on a staggered keyboard; I'm not sure why: possibly due to 15 years of usage. My hands move more laterally and uni when using an Ergodox. Colemak is probably the culprit. Qwerty could be better on ortho layout, who knows.

[batfink]

1. Ditched qwerty, learned Colemak, never went back.
2. Bought Ergodox.
3. One year in, going back to stagger keyboards.

I'm faster and more accurate on a staggered keyboard; I'm not sure why: possibly due to 15 years of usage. My hands move more laterally and uni when using an Ergodox. Colemak is probably the culprit. Qwerty could be better on ortho layout, who knows.

I don't agree. One of the things Colemak is best at is avoiding same finger bigrams. On a matrix-like board, avoiding same finger bigrams is if anything, even more important, as the scope to use the non-standard finger is more restricted. Because Qwerty is so unoptimized, I would that it would be worse on a matrix board, whereas optimized layouts like Colemak should be better...

[Oobly]

Do it properly, go ALL the way (like I did):





Vertical stagger instead of horizontal, split board, angled thumb key clusters and custom character layout

I don't think matrix layout is much of an improvement over normal horizontal stagger.

[william]

Do it properly, go ALL the way (like I did):

my typing accuracy isn't nearly high enough to have the backspace where you do. I probably use it significantly more than enter still.
do you feel like your layout is ever restrictive? do you switch to any other board for certain activities, or are your layers close to perfect for you?
our layouts look like they have a lot of similarities.

[j03]

I'm in my first week using Colemak on a Planck, and loving it!

[davkol]

1. Ditched qwerty, learned Colemak, never went back.
2. Bought Ergodox.
3. One year in, going back to stagger keyboards.

I'm faster and more accurate on a staggered keyboard; I'm not sure why: possibly due to 15 years of usage. My hands move more laterally and uni when using an Ergodox. Colemak is probably the culprit. Qwerty could be better on ortho layout, who knows.

Thumb keys are a part of the problem, because it's more difficult to actually float ones hands around the alpha keys with thumbs fixed in one spot. A high-alternation layout is the solution. I've been relatively unhappy with Colemak on ErgoDox ever since I became truly accustomed to the layout, while it's been perfectly fine on my thinkpad, typematrix and even random staggered mechanical keyboards.