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geekhack Community => Ergonomics => Topic started by: chimera15 on Wed, 16 December 2009, 11:46:40

Title: dvorak mechanical keyboard?
Post by: chimera15 on Wed, 16 December 2009, 11:46:40
Learning dvorak has been kind of difficult for me, I've been at it for about 2 weeks now.  I keep finding myself going back to qwerty cause the disparage of my speed is too great, 90-100 wpm in qwerty to 15 in dvorak currently.  

Remembering back to when I was learning qwerty I would constantly glance down at my keys on my keyboard to give my brain a visual cue where the keys were before I had them totally ingrained in my mind.

One of the things I'm having difficulty remembering is that it's a o e u i layout for the vowels, this slows me down a bunch having to remember which key is under which finger constantly.  Also I think it would force me to use the board more if I couldn't just switch back to qwerty so easily.



So does anyone know if there's a proper mechanical dvorak keyboard?  Preferably using white alps or blue cherries?

Preferably one that doesn't cost a fortune either. lol

http://cgi.ebay.com/RARE-FingerWorks-TouchStream-LP-DVORAK-Keyboard_W0QQitemZ270502124811QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCA_Mice_Trackballs?hash=item3efb2edd0b (http://cgi.ebay.com/RARE-FingerWorks-TouchStream-LP-DVORAK-Keyboard_W0QQitemZ270502124811QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCA_Mice_Trackballs?hash=item3efb2edd0b)

This one looks interesting:  

http://cgi.ebay.com/TypeMatrix-Ergonomic-Keyboard-Dvorak-Qwerty_W0QQitemZ190348000777QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCA_Mice_Trackballs?hash=item2c519ffe09 (http://cgi.ebay.com/TypeMatrix-Ergonomic-Keyboard-Dvorak-Qwerty_W0QQitemZ190348000777QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCA_Mice_Trackballs?hash=item2c519ffe09)
Scissor switches I guess?

I guess I could get those stickers hmm.
Title: dvorak mechanical keyboard?
Post by: AndrewZorn on Wed, 16 December 2009, 12:01:12
1 - switching back is what is going to make the process take longer, if it doesnt stop it from happening completely.
2 - print layout and hang it on wall behind monitor.  reminds you of keys without looking down.
3 - google for the QIDO device, use any keyboard you want, get "hardware" dvorak support.  ignore lettered keys, get blank keys, sometimes you can even rearrange keys... but you severely limit your choices when you are picking a keyboard just by its [non-physical] layout.
Title: dvorak mechanical keyboard?
Post by: chimera15 on Wed, 16 December 2009, 12:09:41
Quote from: AndrewZorn;142995
1 - switching back is what is going to make the process take longer, if it doesnt stop it from happening completely.
2 - print layout and hang it on wall behind monitor.  reminds you of keys without looking down.
3 - google for the QIDO device, use any keyboard you want, get "hardware" dvorak support.  ignore lettered keys, get blank keys, sometimes you can even rearrange keys... but you severely limit your choices when you are picking a keyboard just by its [non-physical] layout.

Those are good suggestions.. I did the hanging the layout on the wall thing, except I used a separate computer screen which is essentially the same thing, but I don't think it has the same psychological impact as pressing your finger on the actual letter.  I mean if I glance down at my board and see that I'm pressing nothing, or even the wrong letter it doesn't enforce the idea in me to the bone that this key equals this letter you know?

Sides there's the coolness factor, and not having to use a tsr or different driver/input change if you change the board to a different pc. lol

(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-10/853173/SelIII.JPG)

I suppose I can make one, the problem will be the caps.  I suppose I could make it a steampunk dvorak board...hmm...
Title: dvorak mechanical keyboard?
Post by: Viett on Wed, 16 December 2009, 12:16:27
Quote from: chimera15;143000
I don't think it has the same psychological impact as pressing your finger on the actual letter.  I mean if I glance down at my board and see that I'm pressing nothing, or even the wrong letter it doesn't enforce the idea in me to the bone that this key equals this letter you know?


This is just something you're going to have to get used to. Ideally, you won't look down at all. I know it's really uncomfortable at first (I went through this 3 times), but you become a much better typer in the long run.
Title: dvorak mechanical keyboard?
Post by: AndrewZorn on Wed, 16 December 2009, 12:45:10
and the QIDO device is small, portable... the whole POINT is to avoid trouble when moving the keyboard to a different computer.  a single hardware dvorak keyboard is probably more trouble than dvoraking any keyboard.
Title: dvorak mechanical keyboard?
Post by: ecru on Wed, 16 December 2009, 15:12:01
IBM Model M or derivatives have identical keycaps that can be interchanged without messing up key heights / angles.  Also some older membrane boards are similar.  As you mentioned, stickers are another alternative.

Personally I found keyboard drills more useful than swapping keycaps.
Eg http://gigliwood.com/abcd/
Title: dvorak mechanical keyboard?
Post by: leos on Wed, 16 December 2009, 16:17:08
is easy to learn dvorak or colemak if the user uses qwertz? is also efficient to do this?
can i type ,,,, also with dvorak or colemak?
Title: dvorak mechanical keyboard?
Post by: leos on Wed, 16 December 2009, 16:32:07
Quote from: webwit;143086
If you haven't learned this (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=colemak+multilingual), it is pretty hard.


ohhhh!!
i know this site -----lmgtfy.com
but... i dont know that colemak was multilingual.

many thanks


edit-----


 German (Deutsch)

    * , , : AltGr+[q], AltGr+[;], AltGr+[y]. Alternative: AltGr+[d] {letter}
    * : AltGr+

forget it
Title: dvorak mechanical keyboard?
Post by: lowpoly on Wed, 16 December 2009, 16:39:20
I use Colemak with International English input language and dead keys for ' and ". I'm not too happy with the dead keys but rather that than AltGr. I never use the .
Title: dvorak mechanical keyboard?
Post by: spremino on Wed, 16 December 2009, 18:27:09
Quote from: chimera15;142987
Remembering back to when I was learning qwerty I would constantly glance down at my keys on my keyboard to give my brain a visual cue where the keys were before I had them totally ingrained in my mind.

Glancing down at the keyboard does not help with Dvorak, since the letter your are looking for is very likely right under a finger of yours. Moreover, you will keep glancing, and that will slow down your memorization process.

As it has been suggested already, do not swap keycaps on your keyboard, but print the layout and hang the print somewhere. I know it's difficult, but it can be done, and it will be rewarding in the long term.

Quote from: chimera15;142987
One of the things I'm having difficulty remembering is that it's a o e u i layout for the vowels, this slows me down a bunch having to remember which key is under which finger constantly.

Yes, vowels are an issue while you are learning. I remember having issues with V and W too.

By all means, practice with a tutor like ABCD.

Keep up the good work!
Title: dvorak mechanical keyboard?
Post by: AndrewZorn on Wed, 16 December 2009, 18:58:19
or give up and give in to colemak
Title: dvorak mechanical keyboard?
Post by: HaaTa on Wed, 16 December 2009, 19:48:26
Quote from: AndrewZorn;143128
or give up and give in to colemak


Lol.

Be patient, you'll learn the layout eventually.
Switch back to QWERTY whenever you get frustrated, then back to dvorak once you calm down again. This really helped (my sanity) when I was learning dvorak (and Colemak as well).

I've been learning Colemak for a over a month now, and I finally feel like I have a good grasp of the layout (never have to look at a Colemak layout now). The more familiar with the layout you are the higher you can get your maximum typing speed.
Title: dvorak mechanical keyboard?
Post by: spremino on Thu, 17 December 2009, 02:44:54
Quote from: AndrewZorn;143128
or give up and give in to colemak

And start complaining that on Colemak you're pressing R instead of S and viceversa all the time, and that some rolls give you the willies ;-)

Jokes apart, each layout has its stumbling blocks you'll overcome eventually.
Title: dvorak mechanical keyboard?
Post by: lowpoly on Thu, 17 December 2009, 03:26:04
Quote from: webwit;143099


Exactly. :-(
Title: dvorak mechanical keyboard?
Post by: spremino on Thu, 17 December 2009, 03:39:13
Quote from: leos;143085
is easy to learn dvorak or colemak if the user uses qwertz? is also efficient to do this?


Colemak has been designed to be an easy transition from Qwerty. I'd say that is the same from Qwertz.

Quote from: leos;143085
can i type ,,,, also with dvorak or colemak?


Nope.

Dvorak hasn't any official variant supporting accented characters. Unofficial variants exists which do that. Search the Internet for a Dvorak layout targetting your language.

Colemak does have an international variant, but AFAIK it has not been designed for extensive use. Maybe there are Colemak variants for different languages too. Check the Colemak forum: http://forum.colemak.com/
Title: dvorak mechanical keyboard?
Post by: lowpoly on Thu, 17 December 2009, 05:45:48
Quote from: leos;143085
is easy to learn dvorak or colemak if the user uses qwertz? is also efficient to do this?
can i type ,,,, also with dvorak or colemak?


Maybe NEO (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Tastaturbelegung) is something for you.
Title: dvorak mechanical keyboard?
Post by: leos on Thu, 17 December 2009, 14:12:21
Quote from: lowpoly;143190
Maybe NEO (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Tastaturbelegung) is something for you.


take look to the "Sonderzeichenebene".

()[] are in the wrong place for me