[GB] Out of the Vault - Series III: By Fans, For Fans (Cancelled)

[Oobly]

If it helps, you can point out to them all the sellers on Etsy MAKING MONEY from their IP. Tell them to pursue those who're directly taking money from association to their brand instead of those trying to make a well-design, non-profit product that'll only increase awareness and interest in their franchise. Seriously, these companies can sometimes be so absolutely clueless as to what to allow and what not to, what's best for them and what's not.

Besides, isn't SP currently producing the DSA ones?

Also, I believe their trademarks for Nuka Cola don't include keycaps... Here is the list from the most applicable trademark (filed 5 August this year, found here: http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/):

"metal key chains, headphones; video game accessories, watches and jewelry; collectible bottle caps; collectible statues, posters; artwork; notebooks; calendars; wall decals and stickers; books; comic books, wallets; messenger bags; backpacks; leather key chains; leather portfolios; purses; belts; lunch boxes; cups and mugs; glassware; shot glasses, shower curtains; towels, clothing, namely, shirts, sweatshirts, sweaters, fleece pullovers, jackets and leggings; headwear, namely, hats; footwear, namely, sneakers; socks, bobble-head dolls; plush toys; action figure toys; snowboards; board games; card games; replica weapons; puzzles"

Unless they categorise keycaps as "video game accessories". Which they aren't.

[00zeRO]

I am not feeling good about this...and if Nuka Cola falls, I might as well hang it up with a hearty and heartfelt "I'm sorry to all those who placed their orders." I hate to say it, but I cannot win against this should I ever be sued over anything having to do with any of the likeness issue. Still waiting to see what they say as I try to find someone who can issue permission, but I will say it is not looking good...

Gah, understandable. I posted something over on the /r/fallout subreddit.

Might as well repost it to /r/mechanicalkeyboards, 80k users is quite a lot. Posted it on /r/mk

Did Bethesda not approve it after all? I thought they would love it, espeecially with shipping time coinciding with Fallout 4 launch dates.

I essentially got blocked at the door by a tech support gatekeeper. He basically responded with a template style answer. I am not giving up easily.  I would love to network with someone there to gain permission,  but how and who?

[apolotary]

I am not feeling good about this...and if Nuka Cola falls, I might as well hang it up with a hearty and heartfelt "I'm sorry to all those who placed their orders." I hate to say it, but I cannot win against this should I ever be sued over anything having to do with any of the likeness issue. Still waiting to see what they say as I try to find someone who can issue permission, but I will say it is not looking good...

Gah, understandable. I posted something over on the /r/fallout subreddit.

Might as well repost it to /r/mechanicalkeyboards, 80k users is quite a lot. Posted it on /r/mk

Did Bethesda not approve it after all? I thought they would love it, espeecially with shipping time coinciding with Fallout 4 launch dates.

I essentially got blocked at the door by a tech support gatekeeper. He basically responded with a template style answer. I am not giving up easily.  I would love to network with someone there to gain permission,  but how and who?

As suggested in the comments on reddit, another option is to post on their facebook page. Although if you had no luck getting them through twitter, it might be tough to get them there as well.

Perhaps getting directly to Brian Fargo is a good option. Alternatively, someone could poke Obsidian Entertainment. They seem like a smaller studio, so perhaps there's a better chance of talking to real people (plus they might redirect to the right people at Bethesda).

Also, the admin of nexusmods might have some contacts too.

[00zeRO]

I am not feeling good about this...and if Nuka Cola falls, I might as well hang it up with a hearty and heartfelt "I'm sorry to all those who placed their orders." I hate to say it, but I cannot win against this should I ever be sued over anything having to do with any of the likeness issue. Still waiting to see what they say as I try to find someone who can issue permission, but I will say it is not looking good...

Gah, understandable. I posted something over on the /r/fallout subreddit.

Might as well repost it to /r/mechanicalkeyboards, 80k users is quite a lot. Posted it on /r/mk

Did Bethesda not approve it after all? I thought they would love it, espeecially with shipping time coinciding with Fallout 4 launch dates.

I essentially got blocked at the door by a tech support gatekeeper. He basically responded with a template style answer. I am not giving up easily.  I would love to network with someone there to gain permission,  but how and who?

As suggested in the comments on reddit, another option is to post on their facebook page. Although if you had no luck getting them through twitter, it might be tough to get them there as well.

Perhaps getting directly to Brian Fargo is a good option. Alternatively, someone could poke Obsidian Entertainment. They seem like a smaller studio, so perhaps there's a better chance of talking to real people (plus they might redirect to the right people at Bethesda).

Also, the admin of nexusmods might have some contacts too.

can you or someone else help to advocate?

[apolotary]

Just checked web resources on Obsidian Entertainment, they are way bigger than I thought. Although they seem to be active on twitter, I'll ask them over there.

[Data]

If it helps, you can point out to them all the sellers on Etsy MAKING MONEY from their IP. Tell them to pursue those who're directly taking money from association to their brand instead of those trying to make a well-design, non-profit product that'll only increase awareness and interest in their franchise. Seriously, these companies can sometimes be so absolutely clueless as to what to allow and what not to, what's best for them and what's not.

Besides, isn't SP currently producing the DSA ones?

Also, I believe their trademarks for Nuka Cola don't include keycaps... Here is the list from the most applicable trademark (filed 5 August this year, found here: http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/):

"metal key chains, headphones; video game accessories, watches and jewelry; collectible bottle caps; collectible statues, posters; artwork; notebooks; calendars; wall decals and stickers; books; comic books, wallets; messenger bags; backpacks; leather key chains; leather portfolios; purses; belts; lunch boxes; cups and mugs; glassware; shot glasses, shower curtains; towels, clothing, namely, shirts, sweatshirts, sweaters, fleece pullovers, jackets and leggings; headwear, namely, hats; footwear, namely, sneakers; socks, bobble-head dolls; plush toys; action figure toys; snowboards; board games; card games; replica weapons; puzzles"

Unless they categorise keycaps as "video game accessories". Which they aren't.

I really don't think they will give a **** about this group buy.  It's a small community run, not-for-profit, and a one-time deal for an incredibly niche product.  It doesn't overlap with their merchandising and it indirectly promotes their big upcoming product.  PLUS: we're asking for permission!  I know some companies protect their brands like new parents but this wouldn't even be on their radar (it's like 2-levels removed derivation) if SP wasn't so diligent about covering their asses.  The trademark is also VERY recent -- it didn't exist for the last (first) Nuka Cola run.  I checked.

[00zeRO]

If it helps, you can point out to them all the sellers on Etsy MAKING MONEY from their IP. Tell them to pursue those who're directly taking money from association to their brand instead of those trying to make a well-design, non-profit product that'll only increase awareness and interest in their franchise. Seriously, these companies can sometimes be so absolutely clueless as to what to allow and what not to, what's best for them and what's not.

Besides, isn't SP currently producing the DSA ones?

Also, I believe their trademarks for Nuka Cola don't include keycaps... Here is the list from the most applicable trademark (filed 5 August this year, found here: http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/):

"metal key chains, headphones; video game accessories, watches and jewelry; collectible bottle caps; collectible statues, posters; artwork; notebooks; calendars; wall decals and stickers; books; comic books, wallets; messenger bags; backpacks; leather key chains; leather portfolios; purses; belts; lunch boxes; cups and mugs; glassware; shot glasses, shower curtains; towels, clothing, namely, shirts, sweatshirts, sweaters, fleece pullovers, jackets and leggings; headwear, namely, hats; footwear, namely, sneakers; socks, bobble-head dolls; plush toys; action figure toys; snowboards; board games; card games; replica weapons; puzzles"

Unless they categorise keycaps as "video game accessories". Which they aren't.

I really don't think they will give a **** about this group buy.  It's a small community run, not-for-profit, and a one-time deal for an incredibly niche product.  It doesn't overlap with their merchandising and it indirectly promotes their big upcoming product.  PLUS: we're asking for permission!  I know some companies protect their brands like new parents but this wouldn't even be on their radar (it's like 2-levels removed derivation) if SP wasn't so diligent about covering their asses.  The trademark is also VERY recent -- it didn't exist for the last (first) Nuka Cola run.  I checked.

So are there any IP lawyers who want to present how this would work? My mold existed before trademark, and it only bares likeness. If anything since Mogo did all the work to get the design moldable, then he is the creator and I would only need his permission. Loop hole, maybe?

[Data]

If it helps, you can point out to them all the sellers on Etsy MAKING MONEY from their IP. Tell them to pursue those who're directly taking money from association to their brand instead of those trying to make a well-design, non-profit product that'll only increase awareness and interest in their franchise. Seriously, these companies can sometimes be so absolutely clueless as to what to allow and what not to, what's best for them and what's not.

Besides, isn't SP currently producing the DSA ones?

Also, I believe their trademarks for Nuka Cola don't include keycaps... Here is the list from the most applicable trademark (filed 5 August this year, found here: http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/):

"metal key chains, headphones; video game accessories, watches and jewelry; collectible bottle caps; collectible statues, posters; artwork; notebooks; calendars; wall decals and stickers; books; comic books, wallets; messenger bags; backpacks; leather key chains; leather portfolios; purses; belts; lunch boxes; cups and mugs; glassware; shot glasses, shower curtains; towels, clothing, namely, shirts, sweatshirts, sweaters, fleece pullovers, jackets and leggings; headwear, namely, hats; footwear, namely, sneakers; socks, bobble-head dolls; plush toys; action figure toys; snowboards; board games; card games; replica weapons; puzzles"

Unless they categorise keycaps as "video game accessories". Which they aren't.

I really don't think they will give a **** about this group buy.  It's a small community run, not-for-profit, and a one-time deal for an incredibly niche product.  It doesn't overlap with their merchandising and it indirectly promotes their big upcoming product.  PLUS: we're asking for permission!  I know some companies protect their brands like new parents but this wouldn't even be on their radar (it's like 2-levels removed derivation) if SP wasn't so diligent about covering their asses.  The trademark is also VERY recent -- it didn't exist for the last (first) Nuka Cola run.  I checked.

So are there any IP lawyers who want to present how this would work? My mold existed before trademark, and it only bares likeness. If anything since Mogo did all the work to get the design moldable, then he is the creator and I would only need his permission. Loop hole, maybe?

If his artwork infringes then your claim is invalid.    But I really don't think it's wise to approach it from that angle.  If they have a registered trademark on the name then that's the end of it, from a legal perspective.

Rather, I think it's best to say, "Hey, Bethesda.  We have this cool Fallout-themed key set we want to make, but we need your permission.  Can you help us out?"  And just hope for the best.  The worst they can say is no.

[ika]

Did Bethesda not approve it after all? I thought they would love it, especially with shipping time coinciding with Fallout 4 launch dates.

IIRC Bethesda is very protective of its IP and doesn't allow any kind of production like this, even if it's not for profit. Most companies are like this, see Squenix shutting down Chrono Trigger Resurrection and then not doing anything with the IP.

[00zeRO]

If I can prove my case showing that my mold was designed, created, and used prior to the trademark being established, then I should have my own permission to use my own mold, having been 'grandfathered' in.

[00zeRO]

I found the 5 trademarks for Nuka Cola, the earliest was in September of 2011 for Soft Drinks. Beyond that, April 2014 was the next earliest. But...I just looked at the date of my original group buy, and it was December 2014 (doh) ...just for reference to anyone who wants to know:

http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4803:ux98x.2.1

http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4803:ux98x.2.2

http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4803:ux98x.2.3

http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4803:ux98x.2.4

http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4803:ux98x.2.5

I see that the word keycap is no listed in the lists of items, but this may not mean much.

Seems like my hopes just fell again... 

[harlw]

If I can prove my case showing that my mold was designed, created, and used prior to the trademark being established, then I should have my own permission to use my own mold, having been 'grandfathered' in.

Not sure that's how it works, copyright belongs to the original creator the second it's created. Trademarks make it easier to protect and gives the owner an easier path to seek damages. However, I don't think the law is ever going to be an issue here, it's simply convincing SP that there is no risk for themselves, of which I don't believe there is any. If you look at etsy and DIY product-on-demand services they are littered with IP infringement for the maker's profit, and there's not even intent to profit here.

[00zeRO]

If his artwork infringes then your claim is invalid.    But I really don't think it's wise to approach it from that angle.  If they have a registered trademark on the name then that's the end of it, from a legal perspective.

Rather, I think it's best to say, "Hey, Bethesda.  We have this cool Fallout-themed key set we want to make, but we need your permission.  Can you help us out?"  And just hope for the best.  The worst they can say is no.

Already pitched it to them, but as stated previously, there was a template answer of:

"Unfortunately, we are not authorized to provide you with permission to use or reproduce images from our games, even for personal use. Please let us know if you have any other issues, questions or concerns and we will make sure you're taken care of.
 
In the meantime, we recommend you keep an eye on our official Facebook, Twitter, and website for upcoming news about Bethesda Softworks games here:
 
https://www.facebook.com/BethesdaSoftworks
https://twitter.com/Bethblog
http://www.bethblog.com
 
War, war never changes.
 
Warm regards,
Brian
Bethesda Customer Support Team
Visit Bethesda Support @https://help.bethesda.net

So, I failed to penetrate the wall. I have appealed to Brian Fargo, but...

[apolotary]

Just for the record, don't forget to check out the reddit thread. I'm seeing some useful advice over there already.

[00zeRO]

Just for the record, don't forget to check out the reddit thread. I'm seeing some useful advice over there already.

I feel like an idiot...

[apolotary]

Just for the record, don't forget to check out the reddit thread. I'm seeing some useful advice over there already.

I feel like an idiot...

Don't feel bad you can always run a generic wasteland-themed set instead

[00zeRO]

Just for the record, don't forget to check out the reddit thread. I'm seeing some useful advice over there already.

I feel like an idiot...

Don't feel bad you can always run a generic wasteland-themed set instead

Well, this I can say: the Vaults are 100% my design, so if I run anything it will be them. So, I would rather err on the side of caution and shut this GB down. Take a gorram break, and then do a Vault 111 one off later on...

[nathanrosspowell]

Just for the record, don't forget to check out the reddit thread. I'm seeing some useful advice over there already.

I feel like an idiot...

Don't feel bad you can always run a generic wasteland-themed set instead

Well, this I can say: the Vaults are 100% my design, so if I run anything it will be them. So, I would rather err on the side of caution and shut this GB down. Take a gorram break, and then do a Vault 111 one off later on...

Yeah, as much as I want these,  I don't want no big scale trouble for you man. Do what's safest.

[nathanrosspowell]

If his artwork infringes then your claim is invalid.    But I really don't think it's wise to approach it from that angle.  If they have a registered trademark on the name then that's the end of it, from a legal perspective.

Rather, I think it's best to say, "Hey, Bethesda.  We have this cool Fallout-themed key set we want to make, but we need your permission.  Can you help us out?"  And just hope for the best.  The worst they can say is no.

Already pitched it to them, but as stated previously, there was a template answer of:

"Unfortunately, we are not authorized to provide you with permission to use or reproduce images from our games, even for personal use. Please let us know if you have any other issues, questions or concerns and we will make sure you're taken care of.
 
In the meantime, we recommend you keep an eye on our official Facebook, Twitter, and website for upcoming news about Bethesda Softworks games here:
 
https://www.facebook.com/BethesdaSoftworks
https://twitter.com/Bethblog
http://www.bethblog.com
 
War, war never changes.
 
Warm regards,
Brian
Bethesda Customer Support Team
Visit Bethesda Support @https://help.bethesda.net

So, I failed to penetrate the wall. I have appealed to Brian Fargo, but...

Just in from the /r/fallout comments:

Best person to ask would be Pete Hines (DCDeacon on Twitter).

[00zeRO]

Just in from the /r/fallout comments:

Best person to ask would be Pete Hines (DCDeacon on Twitter).

Link please...

[nathanrosspowell]

Just in from the /r/fallout comments:

Best person to ask would be Pete Hines (DCDeacon on Twitter).

Link please...

https://twitter.com/DCDeacon

[00zeRO]

Just in from the /r/fallout comments:

Best person to ask would be Pete Hines (DCDeacon on Twitter).

Link please...

https://twitter.com/DCDeacon

Silly...I mean link to the reddit convo...

But, thanks for the link to his twitter,

[apolotary]

Got a retweet from Obsidian, I guess that's something. And of course by "we" I meant "geeckhack users"

[nathanrosspowell]

I am not feeling good about this...and if Nuka Cola falls, I might as well hang it up with a hearty and heartfelt "I'm sorry to all those who placed their orders." I hate to say it, but I cannot win against this should I ever be sued over anything having to do with any of the likeness issue. Still waiting to see what they say as I try to find someone who can issue permission, but I will say it is not looking good...

Gah, understandable. I posted something over on the /r/fallout subreddit.

Just in from the /r/fallout comments:

Best person to ask would be Pete Hines (DCDeacon on Twitter).

Link please...

https://twitter.com/DCDeacon

Silly...I mean link to the reddit convo...

But, thanks for the link to his twitter,

Oh, sorry haah. Sadly there is nothing more than what I quoted and from the /r/fallout post I linked on page 3

https://www.reddit.com/r/Fallout/comments/3khs8k/trying_to_get_permission_for_custom_fallout/cuxz9pl

[9jack9]

Got a retweet from Obsidian, I guess that's something. And of course by "we" I meant "geeckhack users"

I tweeted them pointing to 00zerO's post about needing the letter for SA, saying we need their help to make it happen.  Hopefully something will come of it?

[apolotary]

Got a retweet from Obsidian, I guess that's something. And of course by "we" I meant "geeckhack users"

I tweeted them pointing to 00zerO's post about needing the letter for SA, saying we need their help to make it happen.  Hopefully something will come of it?

It wont't hurt, the GB is getting enough publicity already, which is nice

[BrainFlush]

Sorry to hear about the trouble with the Nuka Cola trademark thingy, which made me think of an alternative.

How about instead of it saying Nuka Cola, we get a bottle silhouette with the letters N C inside.

I don't know much about all this stuff but I can't imagine the printing aspect to be too complicated or so expensive to make an alternate print.

Just an idea and we still get that Fallout feeling.
Either way it goes, I still hope we can get something purchased even if the NC caps are missing.

Thanks again for bringing this GB out as I never even knew these caps existed.

[00zeRO]

Got a retweet from Obsidian, I guess that's something. And of course by "we" I meant "geeckhack users"

I tweeted them pointing to 00zerO's post about needing the letter for SA, saying we need their help to make it happen.  Hopefully something will come of it?

It wont't hurt, the GB is getting enough publicity already, which is nice

My nerves are wrecked...

[9jack9]

Got a retweet from Obsidian, I guess that's something. And of course by "we" I meant "geeckhack users"

I tweeted them pointing to 00zerO's post about needing the letter for SA, saying we need their help to make it happen.  Hopefully something will come of it?

It wont't hurt, the GB is getting enough publicity already, which is nice

My nerves are wrecked...

I totally get you've put time and effort into this, and that hitting this bureaucratic wall where just talking to a person of authority will clear everything up.  I understand the frustration you're dealing with.  Do keep in mind that these are keycaps, and that being calm and methodical about this will likely result in the most beneficial outcome for everyone, but at worst case scenario, the nuka-cola caps are not made.

Keep your head up, and keep in mind that the worst case scenario here would be nothing more than a disappointment. 

Regardless if this goes through or not, thanks for organizing this!

[00zeRO]

Got a retweet from Obsidian, I guess that's something. And of course by "we" I meant "geeckhack users"

I tweeted them pointing to 00zerO's post about needing the letter for SA, saying we need their help to make it happen.  Hopefully something will come of it?

It wont't hurt, the GB is getting enough publicity already, which is nice

My nerves are wrecked...

I totally get you've put time and effort into this, and that hitting this bureaucratic wall where just talking to a person of authority will clear everything up.  I understand the frustration you're dealing with.  Do keep in mind that these are keycaps, and that being calm and methodical about this will likely result in the most beneficial outcome for everyone, but at worst case scenario, the nuka-cola caps are not made.

Keep your head up, and keep in mind that the worst case scenario here would be nothing more than a disappointment. 

Regardless if this goes through or not, thanks for organizing this!

Thank you for your support...I am going to do my best to keep a cool head going forward.

[9jack9]

Got a retweet from Obsidian, I guess that's something. And of course by "we" I meant "geeckhack users"

I tweeted them pointing to 00zerO's post about needing the letter for SA, saying we need their help to make it happen.  Hopefully something will come of it?

It wont't hurt, the GB is getting enough publicity already, which is nice

My nerves are wrecked...

I totally get you've put time and effort into this, and that hitting this bureaucratic wall where just talking to a person of authority will clear everything up.  I understand the frustration you're dealing with.  Do keep in mind that these are keycaps, and that being calm and methodical about this will likely result in the most beneficial outcome for everyone, but at worst case scenario, the nuka-cola caps are not made.

Keep your head up, and keep in mind that the worst case scenario here would be nothing more than a disappointment. 

Regardless if this goes through or not, thanks for organizing this!

Thank you for your support...I am going to do my best to keep a cool head going forward.

No shame in putting the keyboard away for a few hours (or a day) if you start feeling really anxious /nervous /frustrated until you regain composure. You have the support and understanding of a large community here, no matter the outcome.

[00zeRO]

No shame in putting the keyboard away for a few hours (or a day) if you start feeling really anxious /nervous /frustrated until you regain composure. You have the support and understanding of a large community here, no matter the outcome.

hehe, would love to but I type for a living...and I got a few more hours to chug away on this here Blackbird...

[harlw]

My nerves are wrecked...

Dude - we will TOTALLY come visit you in jail, don't sweat it at all

[jerue]

Just for the record, don't forget to check out the reddit thread. I'm seeing some useful advice over there already.

I feel like an idiot...

Yeah...redditors are like that. Oh well. Just keep cool, I hope everything works out.

I really hope though that an agreement could be reached where Bethesda works with SP to make Fallout keycaps a regular thing, maybe making mechanicalkeyboards.com a supplier? (I know that this GB is not affiliated with the site, this is just me talking really).

[00zeRO]

Just for the record, don't forget to check out the reddit thread. I'm seeing some useful advice over there already.

I feel like an idiot...

Yeah...redditors are like that. Oh well. Just keep cool, I hope everything works out.

I really hope though that an agreement could be reached where Bethesda works with SP to make Fallout keycaps a regular thing, maybe making mechanicalkeyboards.com a supplier? (I know that this GB is not affiliated with the site, this is just me talking really).

Dare to dream...

[Data]

Just for the record, don't forget to check out the reddit thread. I'm seeing some useful advice over there already.

I feel like an idiot...

Yeah...redditors are like that. Oh well. Just keep cool, I hope everything works out.

I really hope though that an agreement could be reached where Bethesda works with SP to make Fallout keycaps a regular thing, maybe making mechanicalkeyboards.com a supplier? (I know that this GB is not affiliated with the site, this is just me talking really).

Dare to dream...

SP really put the whole group buy/order (and themselves, indirectly) on ice when they asked you to get permission.  I understand their hesitation, but Bethesda is going to default to a "decline" stance on this the moment you ask them to make it official.  If they give some kind of nod to the key set then it's essentially a licensed product and suddenly it has to meet strict brand and style guidelines.  Contracts get written and lawyers consulted.  It just makes everything messy.  Bethesda doesn't want to get involved on that level.  It would be much easier for them to just ignore it and, in doing so, give it their tacit approval.  But SP is telling you to ask Bethesda to put a ring on it and SP is really shooting themselves in the foot (and us in the face) with that.

And at the same time, I can't really blame them for covering their asses.

IP law is so ****ed up.   

[00zeRO]

Sorry to hear about the trouble with the Nuka Cola trademark thingy, which made me think of an alternative.

How about instead of it saying Nuka Cola, we get a bottle silhouette with the letters N C inside.

I don't know much about all this stuff but I can't imagine the printing aspect to be too complicated or so expensive to make an alternate print.

Just an idea and we still get that Fallout feeling.
Either way it goes, I still hope we can get something purchased even if the NC caps are missing.

Thanks again for bringing this GB out as I never even knew these caps existed.

Thank you for the suggestion. When I was planning the original mockups of the legend, I thought about doing this, but it seemed way to ambiguous.

If they say no, I may just walk away from the Nuka Cola idea totally and just stick my vaults from now on.

[apolotary]

I wonder if faction logos are patented too. I could definitely go for something like this:

[Oobly]

...

SP really put the whole group buy/order (and themselves, indirectly) on ice when they asked you to get permission.  I understand their hesitation, but Bethesda is going to default to a "decline" stance on this the moment you ask them to make it official.  If they give some kind of nod to the key set then it's essentially a licensed product and suddenly it has to meet strict brand and style guidelines.  Contracts get written and lawyers consulted.  It just makes everything messy.  Bethesda doesn't want to get involved on that level.  It would be much easier for them to just ignore it and, in doing so, give it their tacit approval.  But SP is telling you to ask Bethesda to put a ring on it and SP is really shooting themselves in the foot (and us in the face) with that.

And at the same time, I can't really blame them for covering their asses.

IP law is so ****ed up.   

+100 to this.

The fault here does not lie with Bethesda. I'm pretty sure they're very happy to let this happen as it would only have positive effects on their franchise. On the other hand, if they are requested to give explicit consent to this, it forces them into a particular legal position, where denying it consent is the most "correct" thing to do.

There's a big difference between requiring GB designers to get letters of consent from massive corporations and simply having a letter of liability which would cover their asses just as well from a legal standpoint and would not require GB designers to wade through a ridiculous amount of legal BS and bureaucratic nonsense to produce these letters.

The more I deal with SP and the more GB's I participate in with them involved the more enthusiastic I get for finding a competitor who can offer the same services.

TLDR: SP are being asshats for no particular reason.

[Oobly]

...
I totally get you've put time and effort into this, and that hitting this bureaucratic wall where just talking to a person of authority will clear everything up.  I understand the frustration you're dealing with.  Do keep in mind that these are keycaps, and that being calm and methodical about this will likely result in the most beneficial outcome for everyone, but at worst case scenario, the nuka-cola caps are not made.

Keep your head up, and keep in mind that the worst case scenario here would be nothing more than a disappointment. 

Regardless if this goes through or not, thanks for organizing this!

+1. I'm already drafting a letter to SP about another issue (the Row 4 shifts) and would not mind adding something in there about how ridiculous it is to require these letters (with suggestions of how to achieve the same end for them with less pressure / responsibility for designers) if you like. Or we could open a new line of interest in this. I'm starting to think we should start a thread about all issues regarding SP that people would like to address and we can get the whole community behind these things instead of it being so limited and piecemeal as it currently is...

[BrainFlush]

Thank you for the suggestion. When I was planning the original mockups of the legend, I thought about doing this, but it seemed way to ambiguous.

If they say no, I may just walk away from the Nuka Cola idea totally and just stick my vaults from now on.

I say keep your head up and think about changing it to whatever you want.
I back whatever design you come up with.

It just sucks that you ran into this wall but don't give up because of this one thing.
Take care.

[00zeRO]

...
I totally get you've put time and effort into this, and that hitting this bureaucratic wall where just talking to a person of authority will clear everything up.  I understand the frustration you're dealing with.  Do keep in mind that these are keycaps, and that being calm and methodical about this will likely result in the most beneficial outcome for everyone, but at worst case scenario, the nuka-cola caps are not made.

Keep your head up, and keep in mind that the worst case scenario here would be nothing more than a disappointment. 

Regardless if this goes through or not, thanks for organizing this!

+1. I'm already drafting a letter to SP about another issue (the Row 4 shifts) and would not mind adding something in there about how ridiculous it is to require these letters (with suggestions of how to achieve the same end for them with less pressure / responsibility for designers) if you like. Or we could open a new line of interest in this. I'm starting to think we should start a thread about all issues regarding SP that people would like to address and we can get the whole community behind these things instead of it being so limited and piecemeal as it currently is...

You may make reference but timing is everything. They have agreed to make the DSA caps and I don't want to tick them off against doing so at this point. Once they tell me the caps ship from them to me, I will give you the green light to fire away.

[dutC4]

...

SP really put the whole group buy/order (and themselves, indirectly) on ice when they asked you to get permission.  I understand their hesitation, but Bethesda is going to default to a "decline" stance on this the moment you ask them to make it official.  If they give some kind of nod to the key set then it's essentially a licensed product and suddenly it has to meet strict brand and style guidelines.  Contracts get written and lawyers consulted.  It just makes everything messy.  Bethesda doesn't want to get involved on that level.  It would be much easier for them to just ignore it and, in doing so, give it their tacit approval.  But SP is telling you to ask Bethesda to put a ring on it and SP is really shooting themselves in the foot (and us in the face) with that.

And at the same time, I can't really blame them for covering their asses.

IP law is so ****ed up.   

+100 to this.

The fault here does not lie with Bethesda. I'm pretty sure they're very happy to let this happen as it would only have positive effects on their franchise. On the other hand, if they are requested to give explicit consent to this, it forces them into a particular legal position, where denying it consent is the most "correct" thing to do.

There's a big difference between requiring GB designers to get letters of consent from massive corporations and simply having a letter of liability which would cover their asses just as well from a legal standpoint and would not require GB designers to wade through a ridiculous amount of legal BS and bureaucratic nonsense to produce these letters.

The more I deal with SP and the more GB's I participate in with them involved the more enthusiastic I get for finding a competitor who can offer the same services.

TLDR: SP are being asshats for no particular reason.

To be fair, SP isn't doing charity work. They're making enough money to pay wages and make profits. They're doing this so they don't have to be afraid.

[Data]

...

SP really put the whole group buy/order (and themselves, indirectly) on ice when they asked you to get permission.  I understand their hesitation, but Bethesda is going to default to a "decline" stance on this the moment you ask them to make it official.  If they give some kind of nod to the key set then it's essentially a licensed product and suddenly it has to meet strict brand and style guidelines.  Contracts get written and lawyers consulted.  It just makes everything messy.  Bethesda doesn't want to get involved on that level.  It would be much easier for them to just ignore it and, in doing so, give it their tacit approval.  But SP is telling you to ask Bethesda to put a ring on it and SP is really shooting themselves in the foot (and us in the face) with that.

And at the same time, I can't really blame them for covering their asses.

IP law is so ****ed up.   

+100 to this.

The fault here does not lie with Bethesda. I'm pretty sure they're very happy to let this happen as it would only have positive effects on their franchise. On the other hand, if they are requested to give explicit consent to this, it forces them into a particular legal position, where denying it consent is the most "correct" thing to do.

There's a big difference between requiring GB designers to get letters of consent from massive corporations and simply having a letter of liability which would cover their asses just as well from a legal standpoint and would not require GB designers to wade through a ridiculous amount of legal BS and bureaucratic nonsense to produce these letters.

The more I deal with SP and the more GB's I participate in with them involved the more enthusiastic I get for finding a competitor who can offer the same services.

TLDR: SP are being asshats for no particular reason.

SP is just doing what makes the most sense to them. Can't really blame them for taking the easy out on this. If the choice is between exposing my business to liability and disappointing one customer, I'd probably back away from the deal too. They're not exactly saying they won't run it (although that's the effective result as far as we're concerned) they just want everything to be on the up & up. We could still do vaults and Lucky 38 if we wanted. /shrug

If there's a bad guy here it's our overbearing IP law and our litigious society.

[00zeRO]

...

SP really put the whole group buy/order (and themselves, indirectly) on ice when they asked you to get permission.  I understand their hesitation, but Bethesda is going to default to a "decline" stance on this the moment you ask them to make it official.  If they give some kind of nod to the key set then it's essentially a licensed product and suddenly it has to meet strict brand and style guidelines.  Contracts get written and lawyers consulted.  It just makes everything messy.  Bethesda doesn't want to get involved on that level.  It would be much easier for them to just ignore it and, in doing so, give it their tacit approval.  But SP is telling you to ask Bethesda to put a ring on it and SP is really shooting themselves in the foot (and us in the face) with that.

And at the same time, I can't really blame them for covering their asses.

IP law is so ****ed up.   

+100 to this.

The fault here does not lie with Bethesda. I'm pretty sure they're very happy to let this happen as it would only have positive effects on their franchise. On the other hand, if they are requested to give explicit consent to this, it forces them into a particular legal position, where denying it consent is the most "correct" thing to do.

There's a big difference between requiring GB designers to get letters of consent from massive corporations and simply having a letter of liability which would cover their asses just as well from a legal standpoint and would not require GB designers to wade through a ridiculous amount of legal BS and bureaucratic nonsense to produce these letters.

The more I deal with SP and the more GB's I participate in with them involved the more enthusiastic I get for finding a competitor who can offer the same services.

TLDR: SP are being asshats for no particular reason.

SP is just doing what makes the most sense to them. Can't really blame them for taking the easy out on this. If the choice is between exposing my business to liability and disappointing one customer, I'd probably back away from the deal too. They're not exactly saying they won't run it (although that's the effective result as far as we're concerned) they just want everything to be on the up & up. We could still do vaults and Lucky 38 if we wanted. /shrug

If there's a bad guy here it's our overbearing IP law and our litigious society.

Irony of irony is that the actual trademarked Nuka Cola Logo cannot be double shot in the size of keycap...

[00zeRO]

...

SP really put the whole group buy/order (and themselves, indirectly) on ice when they asked you to get permission.  I understand their hesitation, but Bethesda is going to default to a "decline" stance on this the moment you ask them to make it official.  If they give some kind of nod to the key set then it's essentially a licensed product and suddenly it has to meet strict brand and style guidelines.  Contracts get written and lawyers consulted.  It just makes everything messy.  Bethesda doesn't want to get involved on that level.  It would be much easier for them to just ignore it and, in doing so, give it their tacit approval.  But SP is telling you to ask Bethesda to put a ring on it and SP is really shooting themselves in the foot (and us in the face) with that.

And at the same time, I can't really blame them for covering their asses.

IP law is so ****ed up.   

+100 to this.

The fault here does not lie with Bethesda. I'm pretty sure they're very happy to let this happen as it would only have positive effects on their franchise. On the other hand, if they are requested to give explicit consent to this, it forces them into a particular legal position, where denying it consent is the most "correct" thing to do.

There's a big difference between requiring GB designers to get letters of consent from massive corporations and simply having a letter of liability which would cover their asses just as well from a legal standpoint and would not require GB designers to wade through a ridiculous amount of legal BS and bureaucratic nonsense to produce these letters.

The more I deal with SP and the more GB's I participate in with them involved the more enthusiastic I get for finding a competitor who can offer the same services.

TLDR: SP are being asshats for no particular reason.

Who but SP does SA profile?

[E3E]

Hoping things pull through, but it's not looking good. Damn, SP is really making this more complicated than it needs to be.

[00zeRO]

Hoping things pull through, but it's not looking good. Damn, SP is really making this more complicated than it needs to be.

Ain't no fat ladies singing yet...

[Oobly]

@dutC4 and Data: I think you missed my point. SP could cover themselves just as well with a well written letter of liability that they require all designers to sign, instead of requiring letters of consent. It's not any harder for them and they'd be covered legally.

Requiring consent letters forces individuals to get legal documents from corporations for things they wouldn't take notice of usually. It's very much over-the-top, unnecessary and places a huge burden on designers (not to mention forcing the hand of the company, usually towards the negative). It just helps to support the impression that SP doesn't care about and doesn't listen to the keycap enthusiast community.

Devlin make an SA Row 3 equivalent and there are some Chinese companies who are willing to listen and produce almost anything as long as it has a reasonable sized market. The latter may well prove to be the way to go eventually, if SP continues to treat us as second-rate citizens. Gateron has shown a considerable amount of interest in the community and willingness to collaborate on projects. They or JTK may even show an interest in making SA-like caps in future.

[Data]

@dutC4 and Data: I think you missed my point. SP could cover themselves just as well with a well written letter of liability that they require all designers to sign, instead of requiring letters of consent. It's not any harder for them and they'd be covered legally.

Requiring consent letters forces individuals to get legal documents from corporations for things they wouldn't take notice of usually. It's very much over-the-top, unnecessary and places a huge burden on designers (not to mention forcing the hand of the company, usually towards the negative). It just helps to support the impression that SP doesn't care about and doesn't listen to the keycap enthusiast community.

Devlin make an SA Row 3 equivalent and there are some Chinese companies who are willing to listen and produce almost anything as long as it has a reasonable sized market. The latter may well prove to be the way to go eventually, if SP continues to treat us as second-rate citizens. Gateron has shown a considerable amount of interest in the community and willingness to collaborate on projects. They or JTK may even show an interest in making SA-like caps in future.

I understood. I seriously doubt a waiver/letter would sufficiently shift the burden of liability away from SP. But anything is possible I suppose. Do you have an example of a company that handles trademark issues that way?

Devlin and its Asian competitors (especially) don't have the same exposure to litigation as SP does in this case, because they aren't based in the US. They can afford to play it a little more loosely with IP. So when a community project risks encroachment on a trademark or something it would make the most sense to take your business to someone other than SP (I'm agreeing with you here).