Post by: Matias on Sun, 06 July 2014, 01:00:02
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This is a new 60% keyboard based on Matias ALPS switches (http://matias.ca/switches) -- which are available in both clicky (http://matias.ca/switches/click) and quiet (http://matias.ca/switches/quiet) versions. You'll be able to buy it as individual components you can use to build one yourself, or fully assembled by us (no effort required).
PC and Mac layouts are shown below, along with preliminary case drawings.
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Arrow keys + PgUp / PgDown / Home / End
The Matias 60% has fewer compromises vs. the Poker and others out there... You get not only arrow keys, but a full Nav Cluster, which is unheard of on a keyboard this small.
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Awesome new 3/4u and 1.5u PBT keycaps
All of the above is possible because of the special 3/4u and 1.5u PBT keycaps we designed, and because ALPS switches can support 3/4u spacing (Cherry switches cannot).
Cherry support for top 4 rows of keys
Having said that, we plan to offer Cherry switch support for all the keys above the bottom row, since they all use standard spacing. This will make it much easier to find replacement keycaps.
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Right Fn & Menu / Option keys (for those who want them)
We understand that some people may NOT want full Nav key support. If that's you, the kit will also support Arrow keys + Fn + Menu / Option keys on the right side. Just solder in two switches instead of four.
Fn-Arrow keys will also map to PgUp/PgDown/Home/End to accommodate people used to that.
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Programmability
We had requests for programmability. In the spirit of that, we are supporting system-side Fn layer macros. The keyboard itself will not be programmable, but each key in the Fn layer will have its own unique keycode, which you can capture and assign to a macro on your PC/Mac. The side benefit of this is that you can assign different macros for different OSes, allowing you to use the same keyboard on multiple OSes, without conflicts.
Further in the programmability vein, we will be posting the mechanical specs of the PCB, so if you really really REALLY want it programmable, you can buy the case/plate/stab/keycap parts and make your own electronics using a Teensy (https://www.pjrc.com/teensy/td_keyboard.html) or whatever (https://github.com/tmk/tmk_keyboard).
DIP switches for swapping Ctrl / Caps Lock and others
You will be able to set various options via DIP switches. Ctrl / Caps Lock will be swappable, as will Esc / Tilde for the Fn layer. You'll also be able to set the layout to PC or Mac (shown below).
Please post with the options you want...
Please post your interest in each of the categories of options below.
Keycaps:
- PC
- Mac
- ANSI
- ISO
- JIS
Nav Cluster:
- Full Nav Cluster (option A)
- Arrow Cluster (option B)
- Arrow Cluster WITHOUT Delete next to Shift key (option C)
Switches:
- Clicky ALPS (http://matias.ca/switches/click)
- Quiet ALPS (http://matias.ca/switches/quiet)
- Quiet Linear ALPS
Pre-Assembled or Kit:
- Fully Assembled Keyboard
- DIY Parts
- Both
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Post by: lenardBone on Sun, 06 July 2014, 06:06:29
PC
ANSI
Full Cluster-Option A
Quiet Switches
Post by: spiceBar on Sun, 06 July 2014, 06:18:51
A novel approach to the 60%, bringing it on par with the beloved TKL layout. I can see that everything has been carefully pondered, and you have listened to the community.
A daring design, but with very very few compromises. Not flashy, just designed with a lot of care for the small details, those that really matter. Designed to be productive and efficient. I can see it becoming a standard.
Naturally I really want one.
It already does everything I need, I believe. But just to be sure, a few questions:
- Will it be compatible with both USB and PS/2?
- Will Fn-CapsLock return a special code also? I think ALL keys pressed in combination with Fn should return an individual dedicated code, except Ctrl, Shift, and Alt.
- Will it be possible to get one fully assembled from you with Cherry switches on the upper ranks already soldered in (and no keycaps for these ranks if you prefer)?
- If not, will it be possible to get one fully assembled from you EXCEPT for the Cherry switches that we would have to solder ourselves?
Having Cherry switches as an option for the upper rank is a requirement for people who are not going to use the QWERTY layout, unless you are prepared to sell keycaps for a wide range of languages. With Cherry switches, we can easily source the keycaps from somewhere else and you don't have to deal with the trouble of stocking/restocking them.
My interests are:
- PC keycaps just for the bottom row
- ANSI
- Full nav cluster (Option A)
- Fully assembled with Cherry switches on the 4 top ranks
or
fully assembled with no switches on the 4 top ranks.
- Quiet switches
And I would love to see mockups from other angles (but I guess you are working on this already).
Post by: hjkl_over_wasd on Sun, 06 July 2014, 07:13:08
Personally, I'm not sure what to think of the dedicated nav-keys and really like the Poker II way of doing it with the PN key and programmable layer.
The only reason for wanting to use a teensy is to have firmware defined ctrl/esc functionality for the caps-lock key. Ctrl when held down, but Esc if pressed and released. With this feature in place, it's really important to leave `~ in place for all us *nix users. Having such features defined by software, 3rd party or via the OS, is really just a clunky compromise, since nothing is more portable than having everything defined at the firmware level.
If you could have this available to the user through DIP switch settings, I would buy your keyboards in a heartbeat and would probably be able to live with the added clutter of dedicated nav-keys.
And *thick* PBT caps of course. I would easily pay an additional $90 bucks to get solid thick PBT keycaps bundled with the keyboard.
Post by: BearManJim on Sun, 06 July 2014, 08:02:25
- PC / ISO
- Full Nav Cluster (option A)
- Clicky ALPS
- Fully Assembled Keyboard
Post by: daerid on Sun, 06 July 2014, 09:45:25
Post by: geniekid on Sun, 06 July 2014, 10:08:44
The layout for this is interesting because it solves the lack of navigation through dedicated keys instead of through layers. Basically you have to move your hand farther away from the home row, but in return you don't have to do chords to navigate. I firmly believe in layers (I use R-Alt+OKL; on my TKL), but I'm excited to try this out. At the very least I will have a very interesting Alps board to mod :)
Post by: dorkvader on Sun, 06 July 2014, 10:40:37
This will be awesome!
Post by: CPTBadAss on Sun, 06 July 2014, 10:53:42
I'd like to see the following for my own board:
Keycaps:
PC, ANSI
Nav Cluster:
Full Nav Cluster (option A)
Pre-Assembled or Kit:
DIY Parts
Would be great to have both options on the assembly and nav cluster though since options are always good. Is the case going to be polycarbonate like your other keyboards or a different material more like the Filco or Poker?
Post by: Heliosphere on Sun, 06 July 2014, 11:02:33
Post by: duckfeet23 on Sun, 06 July 2014, 12:31:59
Interested in PC/ANSI/DIY-nav/DIY-assembly.
Post by: JaccoW on Sun, 06 July 2014, 13:05:01
Keycaps:
PC
ANSI
Nav Cluster:
Full Cluster (option A)
Pre-Assembled or Kit:
Pre-assembled
I know it is a bit late to change it now but may I suggest taking a look at the Sony keyboard layout:
(http://www.laptopreviews.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/DSC00033-001.jpg)
Smaller arrow keys that have been shifted down slightly so they still feel like a separate island.
Fn + arrow < for Home
Fn + arrow > for End
Fn + arrow ^ for Page Up
Fn + arrow v for Pagre Down
It's the same on the Leopold FC660 and it's really intuitive, especially for text editing.
Post by: terrpn on Sun, 06 July 2014, 13:20:40
Post by: HPE1000 on Sun, 06 July 2014, 13:30:18
Post by: RED-404 on Sun, 06 July 2014, 13:41:30
Nav Cluster: Arrow Cluster (option B) but A still looks badass
Pre-Assembled or Kit: Fully Assembled Keyboard
Please don't cost too much I don't think my wallet can take it.
Post by: spiceBar on Sun, 06 July 2014, 16:00:09
That looks great Matias. I even like the smaller arrow keys. Though regular sizes would make replacing them a lot easier.
Keycaps:
PC
ANSI
Nav Cluster:
Arrow Cluster (option B)
Pre-Assembled or Kit:
Both
I know it is a bit late to change it now but may I suggest taking a look at the Sony keyboard layout:Show Image(http://www.laptopreviews.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/DSC00033-001.jpg)
Smaller arrow keys that have been shifted down slightly so they still feel like a separate island.
Fn + arrow < for Home
Fn + arrow > for End
Fn + arrow ^ for Page Up
Fn + arrow v for Pagre Down
It's the same on the Leopold FC660 and it's really intuitive, especially for text editing.
This has been discussed at length in a separate thread.
Fn with the arrows to do Home/End/PgUp/PgDn is an inferior solution because we already have chords to do on the left hand with Ctrl and Shift for basic text editing.
One of the most important advantage of Matias' solution is that it has a full navigation cluster!
And if you really don't want the full navigation cluster, as you know, you have option B.
Post by: belac on Sun, 06 July 2014, 17:00:53
Post by: dante on Sun, 06 July 2014, 20:18:16
The whole point of 60% [IMHO of course...] is minimal movement from the home row. You should be able to do most text navigation/editing without having to move your hand very far.
For example: Put the FN key where the right ALT is. From there add cursor navigation on the IJKL or OKL: keys for example.
Take heart - I plan on picking up a KBParadise V60MTS (it uses your switches) when it is released so either way you get my money.
Post by: mashby on Sun, 06 July 2014, 20:29:02
Keycaps: Mac, ANSI
Nav Cluster: Arrow Cluster (option B)
Pre-Assembled or Kit: DIY Parts
Post by: HPE1000 on Sun, 06 July 2014, 20:31:53
PC
ANSI
Option B
DIY
Post by: Matias on Sun, 06 July 2014, 20:43:02
Thanks to everyone who's replied so far!
Answers to your questions/comments are below...
I'll check back daily, and do a summary reply at the end of each day -- so feel free to post more questions if you have them.
This is truly awesome, Edgar.
A novel approach to the 60%, bringing it on par with the beloved TKL layout. I can see that everything has been carefully pondered, and you have listened to the community.
Thanks, that was the goal... TKL usability in the space of a 60%. :)
- Will it be compatible with both USB and PS/2?
It will be USB, but if you really need PS/2, you can use one of these StarTech adapters (http://www.startech.com/Server-Management/KVM-Switches/PS-2-to-USB-Keyboard-and-Mouse-Adapter~PS22USB) (also available from eBay (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=StarTech.com+PS%2F2+to+USB+Keyboard+and+Mouse+Adapter) and Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/PS2-USB-KEYBOARD-MOUSE-ADAPTER/dp/B00CCI5TN6))...
[attachimg=1]
- Will Fn-CapsLock return a special code also? I think ALL keys pressed in combination with Fn should return an individual dedicated code, except Ctrl, Shift, and Alt.
- Will it be possible to get one fully assembled from you with Cherry switches on the upper ranks already soldered in (and no keycaps for these ranks if you prefer)?
- If not, will it be possible to get one fully assembled from you EXCEPT for the Cherry switches that we would have to solder ourselves?
Having Cherry switches as an option for the upper rank is a requirement for people who are not going to use the QWERTY layout, unless you are prepared to sell keycaps for a wide range of languages.
Fn-Caps Lock will return a unique keycode along with all the other non-modifier keys. Fn-Arrows will map to PgUp/PgDown/Home/End to accommodate people used to that.
We won't be offering partial assembly -- that's too logistically difficult for factory production. However, one of the PCB options will likely have all components except switches, so you solder on whichever switches you like.
We will be selling ALPS keycaps soon, in both white and black, with the following legends...
- ANSI - US
- ISO - UK
- ISO - German
- ISO - Nordic
- ISO - French Canadian
- Blank
The only reason for wanting to use a teensy is to have firmware defined ctrl/esc functionality for the caps-lock key. Ctrl when held down, but Esc if pressed and released. With this feature in place, it's really important to leave `~ in place for all us *nix users. Having such features defined by software, 3rd party or via the OS, is really just a clunky compromise, since nothing is more portable than having everything defined at the firmware level.
Will consider adding this.
In any case, Caps Lock / Ctrl will be switchable via a DIP.
And *thick* PBT caps of course. I would easily pay an additional $90 bucks to get solid thick PBT keycaps bundled with the keyboard.
Just to clarify, bottom row is thick PBT, but top 4 rows are ABS -- we will offer PBT for those as soon as we have tooling.
Would be great to have both options on the assembly and nav cluster though since options are always good. Is the case going to be polycarbonate like your other keyboards or a different material more like the Filco or Poker?
If we get enough people wanting assembly for A and B options, we'll offer both. Currently it's trending towards A.
Our plan was to do the case in ABS like Filco & Poker, but if the cost difference is small, we'll upgrade it to polycarbonate.
I know it is a bit late to change it now but may I suggest taking a look at the Sony keyboard layout:Show Image(http://www.laptopreviews.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/DSC00033-001.jpg)
Smaller arrow keys that have been shifted down slightly so they still feel like a separate island.
Fn + arrow < for Home
Fn + arrow > for End
Fn + arrow ^ for Page Up
Fn + arrow v for Pagre Down
It's the same on the Leopold FC660 and it's really intuitive, especially for text editing.
Yes, it will work that way.
Please don't cost too much I don't think my wallet can take it.
Cost will likely be in the $120 to $150 range, depending on how many we sell.
Post by: Matias on Sun, 06 July 2014, 20:58:17
Never imagined a bottom row quite like that. You've truly blown my mind and I'm definitely curious. Don't know that it'll become my daily driver, but I've very curious and this board is ever so clever. Nicely done!
Thanks, I'm pretty encouraged by the reactions so far.
Not interested, sorry Matias :(
...
Take heart - I plan on picking up a KBParadise V60MTS (it uses your switches) when it is released so either way you get my money.
No worries. I don't want to compete with other projects. This one hopes to fill a different need -- full Nav Cluster.
Post by: nubbinator on Sun, 06 July 2014, 21:14:11
Post by: trizkut on Sun, 06 July 2014, 21:23:08
Is bottom row bigger than 1 unit tall or is it just a scale thing?
They look like 1.5u tall, which makes sense since the small buttons I think are 0.75u
Post by: Matias on Sun, 06 July 2014, 21:26:13
Is bottom row bigger than 1 unit tall or is it just a scale thing?
Ctrl/Fn/Win keys are 1.5x1u. Alt keys are 1.5x1.25u. Spacebar is 1.5x4.5u. Nav keys are 0.75x1u.
Post by: geniekid on Sun, 06 July 2014, 21:42:33
Never imagined a bottom row quite like that. You've truly blown my mind and I'm definitely curious. Don't know that it'll become my daily driver, but I've very curious and this board is ever so clever. Nicely done!
I think you pretty much summed up my feelings about this. Don't think it's better than my current layouts, but too curious not to try it out! Especially since it's Alps!
Post by: HotKillerZzz on Sun, 06 July 2014, 22:25:45
Keycaps:
PC, ANSI
Nav Cluster:
Full Nav Cluster (option A)
Pre-Assembled or Kit:
Both
Post by: Pacifist on Sun, 06 July 2014, 22:26:39
PC
ANSI
Nav Cluster:
DIY Parts for both
Pre-Assembled or Kit:
Both
Post by: CPTBadAss on Sun, 06 July 2014, 22:35:51
If we get enough people wanting assembly for A and B options, we'll offer both. Currently it's trending towards A.
Our plan was to do the case in ABS like Filco & Poker, but if the cost difference is small, we'll upgrade it to polycarbonate.
This is completely personal preference but I really don't like the look of polycarb in cases. Hoping you'll stick to ABS :D.
Post by: Matias on Sun, 06 July 2014, 23:35:36
If we get enough people wanting assembly for A and B options, we'll offer both. Currently it's trending towards A.
Our plan was to do the case in ABS like Filco & Poker, but if the cost difference is small, we'll upgrade it to polycarbonate.
This is completely personal preference but I really don't like the look of polycarb in cases. Hoping you'll stick to ABS :D.
You'll likely get your wish.
However, also I want to see how the texture on the Ergo Pro (http://matias.ca/ergopro) turns out. It's polycarbonate but not shiny, so we may be pleasantly surprised.
Post by: TLeigh92 on Mon, 07 July 2014, 03:55:20
ISO
Option A
Fully assembled
This looks great Matias, very interested.
Post by: AKmalamute on Mon, 07 July 2014, 10:45:42
Still interested. PC / ANSI / DIY kit.
Maybe I didn't catch it, but what microcontroller will this have? Something with a TQFP attached directly to the board, I'd need baked on there's no way other than solder-paste to attach that many wires at once ... but if it's got its own daughter board, like the Teensy -- I can attach that, no problem.
Post by: brhfl on Mon, 07 July 2014, 14:12:55
I'd also like to put in a strong vote for the aforementioned caps-lock as ctrl/esc trick... As someone who spends a lot of time in POSIX-style shells (including using Vim and Vimlike keybindings in zsh), tilde, escape, and ctrl are all pretty important to me.
I'd vote polycarb if that was a thing to vote on too, but, y'know.
Question: Will the right alt be swappable via DIP switch to be context menu primarily, and alt on fn layer? I guess that can be handled in software as well, never really had to do that one before... But my Windows time is largely in Acrobat where using that key is the only way to avoid the mouse much of the time...
Post by: FrostyToast on Mon, 07 July 2014, 14:16:57
Post by: Matias on Mon, 07 July 2014, 19:31:29
Wish this had an aluminum housing as well.
Would consider it if enough people asked for it, though it might be quite expensive -- in the $100 to $200 range just for the case.
I'd also like to put in a strong vote for the aforementioned caps-lock as ctrl/esc trick... As someone who spends a lot of time in POSIX-style shells (including using Vim and Vimlike keybindings in zsh), tilde, escape, and ctrl are all pretty important to me.
Okay, perhaps we can make this the default behaviour when Esc is swapped into the Fn layer in favour of ~`. In other words...
- Default setting is Esc with ~` in the Fn layer.
- Setting the DIP to swap ~` out of the Fn layer also turns quick-press-of-Ctrl into Esc.
- Set another DIP to swap Caps Lock and Ctrl.
Anybody have any objections to this?
Question: Will the right alt be swappable via DIP switch to be context menu primarily, and alt on fn layer? I guess that can be handled in software as well, never really had to do that one before... But my Windows time is largely in Acrobat where using that key is the only way to avoid the mouse much of the time...
Likely not, but if you need this, you could always cut the trace lines for that key, and solder a jumper from the switch pins to the pads of the Contextual Menu key in the matrix.
Maybe I didn't catch it, but what microcontroller will this have? Something with a TQFP attached directly to the board, I'd need baked on there's no way other than solder-paste to attach that many wires at once ... but if it's got its own daughter board, like the Teensy -- I can attach that, no problem.
It'll have our proprietary controller, 48-pin LQFP package.
Post by: Matias on Mon, 07 July 2014, 20:12:31
I'd also like to put in a strong vote for the aforementioned caps-lock as ctrl/esc trick... As someone who spends a lot of time in POSIX-style shells (including using Vim and Vimlike keybindings in zsh), tilde, escape, and ctrl are all pretty important to me.
Okay, perhaps we can make this the default behaviour when Esc is swapped into the Fn layer in favour of ~`. In other words...
- Default setting is Esc with ~` in the Fn layer.
- Setting the DIP to swap ~` out of the Fn layer also turns quick-press-of-Ctrl into Esc.
- Set another DIP to swap Caps Lock and Ctrl.
Okay, just thought of a better approach. How about this...?
- Setting the DIP to swap Caps Lock / Ctrl also turns quick-press-of-Ctrl into the Fn layer of Esc/~`.
- If the Esc/~` DIP is set to Esc, then Fn+Esc or quick-press-of-Ctrl will do ~`
- If the Esc/~` DIP is set to ~`, then Fn+~` or quick-press-of-Ctrl will do Esc
The advantage of this way is that you only get the trick when Ctrl / Caps Lock are swapped, preserving the "normal" behaviour for everybody else. The other advantage is that you get to choose whether the trick gives you ~` or Esc.
Any objections to this approach?
Post by: AKmalamute on Mon, 07 July 2014, 21:26:47
The advantage of this way is that you only get the trick when Ctrl / Caps Lock are swapped, preserving the "normal" behaviour for everybody else. The other advantage is that you get to choose whether the trick gives you ~` or Esc.Sounds reasonable -- as one who will definitely swap CAPS for Ctrl early on :rolleyes:
Any objections to this approach?
Your microcontroller -- will it be fully reprogrammable, like the MD page for the Ergodox...? I'm not enough of a nut to insist on source code for everything -- I just want hardware dvorak and I fully recognize I'm in the minority on that part.
Post by: Heliosphere on Mon, 07 July 2014, 21:34:14
Post by: Matias on Mon, 07 July 2014, 21:35:21
Your microcontroller -- will it be fully reprogrammable, like the MD page for the Ergodox...? I'm not enough of a nut to insist on source code for everything -- I just want hardware dvorak and I fully recognize I'm in the minority on that part.
Not programmable, but can probably do hardware Dvorak via a DIP.
Post by: AKmalamute on Mon, 07 July 2014, 21:49:00
Not programmable, but can probably do hardware Dvorak via a DIP.
Thank you for considering it, then. Do you guys still / ever make a hardware-dvorak board? Seems I had an old bookmark to your company back when I was saving up for a fancy keyboard and was having a heck of a time finding dvorak boards -- the more so when I wanted more than a different keyset.
Post by: Matias on Mon, 07 July 2014, 21:49:18
What would I need in order to put together a DIY kit?
Kit would be something along these lines...
- PCB (no components)
or
PCB (presoldered components but without switches)
or
make your own PCB from our mechanical specs.
- Plate + Stabilizers
- Case
- Keycaps
You can buy switches from us or from somebody else.
Each of the above will be available separately, so for example, if you want a 2nd case in green, you can buy 2 and paint the 2nd one.
Post by: Matias on Mon, 07 July 2014, 21:51:51
Not programmable, but can probably do hardware Dvorak via a DIP.
Thank you for considering it, then. Do you guys still / ever make a hardware-dvorak board? Seems I had an old bookmark to your company back when I was saving up for a fancy keyboard and was having a heck of a time finding dvorak boards -- the more so when I wanted more than a different keyset.
Yes, we make this one... (very nice feel but not mechanical)
http://matias.ca/dvorak
Post by: Heliosphere on Mon, 07 July 2014, 22:03:50
Post by: Matias on Mon, 07 July 2014, 22:17:41
Awesome, would a DIY kit be lower priced than an assembled kit?
It's difficult to say at this early stage, but probably yes. DIY would save you on the assembly cost, but there's extra cost/hassle associated with sorting & packing individual components for safe transport.
Post by: Melvang on Mon, 07 July 2014, 22:34:05
If I was to purchase one it would be PC, ANSI, Option A, In a DIY kit. The only thing I would want pre soldered is the SMD stuffs.
Post by: jacobolus on Tue, 08 July 2014, 00:27:50
Overall nice work though.
Post by: trizkut on Tue, 08 July 2014, 02:15:24
PC
ANSI
Full Nav Cluster (option A)
Quiet, but perfectly fine with Clicky as well
Both <-- This would imply assembled with option A with DIY parts for option B, right?
Post by: Matias on Tue, 08 July 2014, 02:32:46
Full Nav Cluster (option A)
Both <-- This would imply assembled with option A with DIY parts for option B, right?
"Both" means you're interested in a pre-assembled unit, but also in buying DIY parts.
Our expectation was that most people would want option A, and we'd offer that pre-assembled or DIY. Option B would be DIY only. However, if enough people also want option B pre-assembled, we'll offer that as well.
Last time I checked, we were running 2:1 in favour of option A.
Post by: agodinhost on Tue, 08 July 2014, 07:04:46
That looks great Matias. I even like the smaller arrow keys. Though regular sizes would make replacing them a lot easier.+1
Keycaps:
PC
ANSI
Nav Cluster:
Arrow Cluster (option B)
Pre-Assembled or Kit:
Both
I know it is a bit late to change it now but may I suggest taking a look at the Sony keyboard layout:Show Image(http://www.laptopreviews.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/DSC00033-001.jpg)
Smaller arrow keys that have been shifted down slightly so they still feel like a separate island.
Fn + arrow < for Home
Fn + arrow > for End
Fn + arrow ^ for Page Up
Fn + arrow v for Pagre Down
It's the same on the Leopold FC660 and it's really intuitive, especially for text editing.
simpler is better
Post by: Matias on Tue, 08 July 2014, 08:17:18
Okay, looks like the Full Nav Cluster (option A) is only attractive to PC users. The (admittedly few) Mac guys are choosing option B.
So, based on feedback so far and some discussions we've had internally, I've introduced a third option C, which is Arrow keys without the Delete key next to the right Shift key...
http://matias.ca/60
This option should be more appealing to Mac guys, and perhaps even some of the option B voters. Ideally, by the end, I'd like to narrow it down to just two options for the GB.
Let me know what you think...
[attachimg=1]
Post by: CPTBadAss on Tue, 08 July 2014, 08:21:06
The only thing I would want pre soldered is the SMD stuffs.
I should've mentioned this. I'd like the SMD components presoldered as well.
Wish this had an aluminum housing as well.
Would consider it if enough people asked for it, though it might be quite expensive -- in the $100 to $200 range just for the case.
I'd be interested in an aluminum/metal case as well. But if that option doesn't work out, I'd like to see an ABS case over Polycarb.
Okay, looks like the Full Nav Cluster (option A) is only attractive to PC users. The (admittedly few) Mac guys are choosing option B.
So, based on feedback so far and some discussions we've had internally, I've introduced a third option C, which is Arrow keys without the Delete key next to the right Shift key...
http://matias.ca/60
This option should be more appealing to Mac guys, and perhaps even some of the option B voters. Ideally, by the end, I'd like to narrow it down to just two options for the GB.
Let me know what you think...
I like the idea of having a "Pure" style layout like Option A and "Poker" style layout like Option C. Admittedly, I'm not a Mac user so I'm not sure how that helps or hurts the Mac users.
Post by: Hazel on Tue, 08 July 2014, 11:44:36
- Full nav cluster w/dedicated delete key
- Ability to program layout into hardware (via flashing or drop-in controller)
- Barring that, built-in Colemak layout via DIP
- Ability to change capslock to backspace (as part of Colemak layout or as a separate DIP)
- Available blank/Colemak/Dvorak Alps keycaps
I don't mind building it myself, but pre-soldered surface mount components would be welcome.
Post by: jdcarpe on Tue, 08 July 2014, 11:51:40
I'm definitely interested!!
Keycaps: PC/ANSI
Nav Cluster: Arrow Cluster (option B)
Pre-Assembled or Kit: Both
Post by: brhfl on Tue, 08 July 2014, 13:45:36
As for your ~/Esc/Ctrl/Caps Lock solutions, either seems great to me, but my preference is for the second idea (Caps as ctrl also makes quick press equivalent of fn-esc).
Post by: spiceBar on Tue, 08 July 2014, 13:55:00
It will be USB, but if you really need PS/2, you can use one of these StarTech adapters (http://www.startech.com/Server-Management/KVM-Switches/PS-2-to-USB-Keyboard-and-Mouse-Adapter~PS22USB) (also available from eBay (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=StarTech.com+PS%2F2+to+USB+Keyboard+and+Mouse+Adapter) and Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/PS2-USB-KEYBOARD-MOUSE-ADAPTER/dp/B00CCI5TN6))...
:eek: It's almost as expensive as the keyboard!
The idea with PS/2 is that I could have used Hasu's PS/2 to USB converter, which contains the TMK firmware and turns the keyboard into a fully programmable one.
The converter is a small printed circuit with a few components, and it would probably be possible to put it inside the keyboard's case by soldering the keyboard's output directly to the converter's input. At least that was my plan.
It's a very low cost device based on an ATMega controller. I don't know exactly how much it costs to be made, but my guess is that it can be done for under $10.
You could have offered this as an optional $50 internal module to turn the keyboard into a fully programmable one for those who insist on this feature (like me).
As you probably know, the TMK firmware offers a ton of features like programmable Fn layers and dual-role modifiers. And much more.
Here is a picture of the converter. Once you remove the huge PS/2 and USB connectors, it's really small (50x26x4mm, with the reset button making it 7mm deep locally).
[attachimg=1]
Two converters are pictured here, so you can see both sides
I understand that you cannot make the keyboard PS/2 easily, but maybe it is possible to make a small converter similar to Hasu's, with the TMK firmware onboard, that would accept USB as input and that would output USB. That would be an optional module to add full programmability without changing the basic design of the keyboard.
Post by: divito on Tue, 08 July 2014, 20:08:12
I'd be interested in the following:
- PC
- ANSI
- Option A
- Clicky ALPS (but either is fine)
- Pre-Assembled
Post by: Matias on Wed, 09 July 2014, 06:11:49
It will be USB, but if you really need PS/2, you can use one of these StarTech adapters (http://www.startech.com/Server-Management/KVM-Switches/PS-2-to-USB-Keyboard-and-Mouse-Adapter~PS22USB) (also available from eBay (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=StarTech.com+PS%2F2+to+USB+Keyboard+and+Mouse+Adapter) and Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/PS2-USB-KEYBOARD-MOUSE-ADAPTER/dp/B00CCI5TN6))...
:eek: It's almost as expensive as the keyboard!
Yes, pretty outrageous. I guess they're the only game in town, so they price it as high as they like.
I understand that you cannot make the keyboard PS/2 easily, but maybe it is possible to make a small converter similar to Hasu's, with the TMK firmware onboard, that would accept USB as input and that would output USB. That would be an optional module to add full programmability without changing the basic design of the keyboard.
Yes, it's certainly possible. There are lots of projects underway. Somebody may have done it already. I found quite a few of them here, but didn't sort through them all...
https://github.com/tmk/tmk_keyboard/blob/master/doc/other_projects.md
Post by: BearManJim on Wed, 09 July 2014, 08:44:23
So, based on feedback so far and some discussions we've had internally, I've introduced a third option C, which is Arrow keys without the Delete key next to the right Shift key...
Eek! I just noticed the delete key! I'm still sticking with option A but it's a shame no more keys could be added around the arrow cluster, freeing up some more space for extra keys to the left? Like what I'm using now on my old netbook;
(http://static.trustedreviews.com/94/990094/5d25/9307-img7243s.jpg)
Post by: belac on Wed, 09 July 2014, 08:54:19
full nav cluster (option A)
PC
ANSI
Fully Assembled
Quiet Alps
will the fully assembled option be available with choice of matias clicky or quiet switches?
Post by: hjkl_over_wasd on Wed, 09 July 2014, 11:07:12
- Dual role ctrl/esc for the capslock key
- `~ in place of esc on the regular layer. *NOT* the FN layer.
Sorry, I didn't see this:
I'd also like to put in a strong vote for the aforementioned caps-lock as ctrl/esc trick... As someone who spends a lot of time in POSIX-style shells (including using Vim and Vimlike keybindings in zsh), tilde, escape, and ctrl are all pretty important to me.
Okay, perhaps we can make this the default behaviour when Esc is swapped into the Fn layer in favour of ~`. In other words...
- Default setting is Esc with ~` in the Fn layer.
- Setting the DIP to swap ~` out of the Fn layer also turns quick-press-of-Ctrl into Esc.
- Set another DIP to swap Caps Lock and Ctrl.
Anybody have any objections to this?
This is exactly what I'm asking for, right? I'm just not completely sure that you mean that point 3 will swap ctrl and capslock, where ctrl has the behavior of 1 and 2.. If so, sign me right up sir!
PC
ANSI
Extra fiberglass plate.
DIY preferred, but fully or partial assembly is also fine.
Also:
How thick are the caps going to be?
Signature Plastics have shown me that PBT isn't everything; mass is key.
PS: This looks like it could become the best 60% ever!
Post by: Matias on Wed, 09 July 2014, 17:02:23
Eek! I just noticed the delete key! I'm still sticking with option A but it's a shame no more keys could be added around the arrow cluster, freeing up some more space for extra keys to the left? Like what I'm using now on my old netbook;Show Image(http://static.trustedreviews.com/94/990094/5d25/9307-img7243s.jpg)
Yes, unfortunately, that design didn't test well.
will the fully assembled option be available with choice of matias clicky or quiet switches?
Quiet switches are more popular, so fully assembled will likely be quiet switches only. For clicky, DIY is always available.
If [and] only if I can get the following settings defined at the firmware level:
- Dual role ctrl/esc for the capslock key
- `~ in place of esc on the regular layer. *NOT* the FN layer.
Yes, will support that via 2 DIP switches. Set one DIP to swap Ctrl/Caps Lock and enable the dual Ctrl/Esc feature, then set another DIP to swap Esc/~`
Also:
How thick are the caps going to be?
Signature Plastics have shown me that PBT isn't everything; mass is key.
The PBT caps will be thick. Below photo shows a mockup of one of the new PBT caps next to a standard ABS one.
[attachimg=1]
PS: This looks like it could become the best 60% ever!
Looking pretty good so far... :-)
Post by: belac on Wed, 09 July 2014, 17:26:10
well i'm using a Quiet Pro as my daily driver now so this would be great for me :thumb:
will the fully assembled option be available with choice of matias clicky or quiet switches?
Quiet switches are more popular, so fully assembled will likely be quiet switches only. For clicky, DIY is always available.
Post by: dante on Wed, 09 July 2014, 18:21:59
will the fully assembled option be available with choice of matias clicky or quiet switches?
Quiet switches are more popular, so fully assembled will likely be quiet switches only. For clicky, DIY is always available.
How did you determine this? The PC market is far larger than the Mac - and you've never sold a PC Clicky version with the new switch. I've run into more than one person who would have bought a black PC Tactile Pro had it been available.
Post by: hjkl_over_wasd on Wed, 09 July 2014, 18:35:35
will the fully assembled option be available with choice of matias clicky or quiet switches?
Quiet switches are more popular, so fully assembled will likely be quiet switches only. For clicky, DIY is always available.
How did you determine this? The PC market is far larger than the Mac - and you've never sold a PC Clicky version with the new switch. I've run into more than one person who would have bought a black PC Tactile Pro had it been available.
Since he is the producer and vendor, he probably looked at his sales.
Post by: dante on Wed, 09 July 2014, 18:42:50
will the fully assembled option be available with choice of matias clicky or quiet switches?
Quiet switches are more popular, so fully assembled will likely be quiet switches only. For clicky, DIY is always available.
How did you determine this? The PC market is far larger than the Mac - and you've never sold a PC Clicky version with the new switch. I've run into more than one person who would have bought a black PC Tactile Pro had it been available.
Since he is the producer and vendor, he probably looked at his sales.
Again, how can he say the Tactile Pro is less popular when only a Mac version is available?
Post by: divito on Wed, 09 July 2014, 19:12:21
Again, how can he say the Tactile Pro is less popular when only a Mac version is available?
That's fairly true. I looked into buying a Matias and the only while Mac Tactile Pro limited my options because I prefer that over quiet.
Post by: BearManJim on Thu, 10 July 2014, 00:05:03
Quiet switches are more popular, so fully assembled will likely be quiet switches only. For clicky, DIY is always available.
That is heart-breaking. :'( I have zero soldering skills so would be unable to build a clicky version myself. If however, an all white quiet version was made available in PC/ISO-UK, I would still seriously consider it...
Again, how can he say the Tactile Pro is less popular when only a Mac version is available?
Agreed. I've been wanting to purchase a clicky Tactile Pro for PC (ISO UK) in white for years. The Mini Tactile Pro, again Mac only isn't even available in ISO. So I gave up until hearing wind of this 60% beauty...
Post by: Heliosphere on Thu, 10 July 2014, 00:39:57
Edit: Just realized there's no delete key. Any chance one of the bottom function or option keys can be quick switched to delete?
Post by: Matias on Thu, 10 July 2014, 01:48:10
will the fully assembled option be available with choice of matias clicky or quiet switches?
Quiet switches are more popular, so fully assembled will likely be quiet switches only. For clicky, DIY is always available.
How did you determine this? The PC market is far larger than the Mac - and you've never sold a PC Clicky version with the new switch. I've run into more than one person who would have bought a black PC Tactile Pro had it been available.
You may be right. I hope you are, so I've updated the IC to include switches...
http://matias.ca/60
Again, how can he say the Tactile Pro is less popular when only a Mac version is available?
Agreed. I've been wanting to purchase a clicky Tactile Pro for PC (ISO UK) in white for years. The Mini Tactile Pro, again Mac only isn't even available in ISO.
We expect to have PC versions of the Tactile Pro early next year -- though they won't be white. :-)
Edit: Just realized there's no delete key. Any chance one of the bottom function or option keys can be quick switched to delete?
Options A and B have a Delete key next to the right Shift key. On option C, you can do Delete by pressing Fn-Backspace.
Post by: divito on Thu, 10 July 2014, 02:35:00
Post by: BearManJim on Thu, 10 July 2014, 06:38:06
Edited my previous post to reflect the switch option.
Me too. ;)
We expect to have PC versions of the Tactile Pro early next year -- though they won't be white. :-)
Didn't you get the memo about black being the new beige? :))
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,1164063,00.asp
I appreciate the article's 12 years old but little has changed IMO.
Post by: geniekid on Thu, 10 July 2014, 07:37:19
Okay, looks like the Full Nav Cluster (option A) is only attractive to PC users. The (admittedly few) Mac guys are choosing option B.
So, based on feedback so far and some discussions we've had internally, I've introduced a third option C, which is Arrow keys without the Delete key next to the right Shift key...
http://matias.ca/60
This option should be more appealing to Mac guys, and perhaps even some of the option B voters. Ideally, by the end, I'd like to narrow it down to just two options for the GB.
Let me know what you think...
One thing I do on my keyboards is to have Fn+Backspace be Delete. My layout also has Backspace swapped with \| (ala HHKB), but I think it could still work here. One reason I don't like the split R-shift is that it makes is a little difficult to type the close-bracket when I'm coding. That is one time I need that R-shift to extend all the way to the right.
Post by: FuriousGeorge on Thu, 10 July 2014, 14:52:31
Any chance of having an option to remap both alt keys to function? My Tex Beetle has that layout and I really like having the function right under both thumbs. I just wish it was programmable to better take advantage of the function layer. If your're at least mapping everything where I can change it myself with autohotkey that would work great.
One more vote for Colemak and backspace to delete, but that's easy enough to change on my own if necessary.
Post by: vivalarevolución on Thu, 10 July 2014, 14:55:23
Option B layout
Mac
ANSI
Quiet
Fully Assembled.
thanks for this opportunity. It is truly a different take on the 60%. The Matias switch really seems to open up options for irregular sized keycaps.
Post by: Matias on Thu, 10 July 2014, 16:12:09
Edited my previous post to reflect the switch option.
Thanks, that's a good way.
One thing I do on my keyboards is to have Fn+Backspace be Delete. My layout also has Backspace swapped with \| (ala HHKB), but I think it could still work here. One reason I don't like the split R-shift is that it makes is a little difficult to type the close-bracket when I'm coding. That is one time I need that R-shift to extend all the way to the right.
Understood.
Already planned to have Fn+Backspace be Delete.
For Backspace swapped with \| (ala HHKB), it can be done easily with a few jumpers -- if you're handy with a soldering iron. If you're not, then there are several people on GH who could do it for you for a fee. I'll post links to them when the time comes. I think this is the best solution for requests that don't make the final cut. It's a little extra hassle, but you'll still be able to get what you want.
thanks for this opportunity. It is truly a different take on the 60%. The Matias switch really seems to open up options for irregular sized keycaps.
Thanks for your comment. Yes, the new caps combined with the switches open up a whole new world of possibilities. Virtually any layout is do-able in mechanical now.
Any chance of having an option to remap both alt keys to function? My Tex Beetle has that layout and I really like having the function right under both thumbs. I just wish it was programmable to better take advantage of the function layer. If your're at least mapping everything where I can change it myself with autohotkey that would work great.
You're the first person to ask for this, so it may not make it into the final spec. However, if you're handy with a soldering iron, it's easy to rig up with a few jumpers. If it helps, I can post the matrix file to simplify things.
And yes, virtually all non-modifier keys will have a unique Fn-layer keycode which you can capture and remap with AutoHotkey.
One more vote for Colemak and backspace to delete, but that's easy enough to change on my own if necessary.
Will consider adding it if enough people request it.
Didn't you get the memo about black being the new beige? :))
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,1164063,00.asp
I appreciate the article's 12 years old but little has changed IMO.
News travels slow here. :-)
Also, remember that you'll have the option in the GB to get an extra case and paint it any colour you like -- even beige.
Post by: FuriousGeorge on Thu, 10 July 2014, 16:22:57
Post by: Matias on Thu, 10 July 2014, 16:27:03
Just realized I mis-typed backspace for delete when I meant change caps lock to backspace. I'm really used to it there now that I've switched to Colemak. Again, easy enough to change in software if it's not in hardware.
Yes, or in hardware, with a few jumpers.
Post by: belac on Thu, 10 July 2014, 16:28:04
Post by: Matias on Thu, 10 July 2014, 17:43:23
so I'm pretty new around here and fairly ignorant to group buys in general, so pardon me if this is impolite to ask: what is the usual turnaround time from IC to GB to me annoying my coworkers by showing off my new keyboard?
There are no hard and fast rules on that, but I can certainly answer for this one...
My plan was to run the IC (interest check) for about 2 weeks, with the (obvious) goal of gauging interest, but also identifying which particular layouts/features people wanted most. It's only been 4 days and I think most, if not all, of those goals have already been met.
The GB (group buy) will probably run for about a month. Options that I'm sure we'll get enough orders for will be posted for purchase. Ones that I'm less confident of achieving MOQ (minimum order quantity) will be set up as a waiting list, or I'll provide referrals to people who can do that mod for you.
Once the GB purchase goals have been met, we'll finish the 3D drawing, and then start tooling it. The keycap tooling is already underway, so the only tooling required is for the case, mounting plate, and PCB. For options where we get very few orders, we'll probably still be able to offer them as a kit with a fiberglass mounting plate. If you don't have the skills to assemble it yourself, I can refer you to somebody who can do it for you for a fee.
The drawing takes about a month. Tooling takes about 3 months. Gearing up for production takes about 2 months. You're looking at about 6 months or so.
It's a slow process, but it's also a unique opportunity to participate in the design process and get something built to (or very close to) your specs, and also to purchase extra items not normally available.
For example, one of the layout options may not be popular enough to ever go into formal production, so this is your only opportunity to get one (or a few for backup, or backup parts).
Or if you want a different colour case, you'll be able to buy a spare case (or multiples) at a low cost and paint it/them whatever colour suits your fancy. You may not want to risk painting your expensive new mechanical keyboard red or green, but if you have an extra case (or two) that cost you next-to-nothing, why not?
For comparison, a one-off plastic case done by CNC routinely costs us upwards of $500 to make -- if you can buy a spare for $20, that's really inexpensive.
Once the GB is done, we won't offer these options again -- though we will offer keycaps, and we may do an aluminum case GB in the future -- but for PCBs, plates, stock cases, the GB will be your only chance to buy them. As I said, it's a unique opportunity.
Post by: belac on Thu, 10 July 2014, 17:55:29
Post by: FuriousGeorge on Thu, 10 July 2014, 18:05:28
Post by: Matias on Thu, 10 July 2014, 18:37:29
Is this going to be a normal production keyboard in the future? Is the group buy the only way to get alternate layouts, bare circuit boards and the like and in the future there will be maybe a single pc sku and a single mac sku, or is the group buy the only time it will be available at all?
Yes, the Group Buy will be the only opportunity to buy parts and get alternate layouts. We're only doing this once. More details here...
http://geekhack.org/?topic=60268.msg1395338#msg1395338
If it proves popular enough to graduate into an on-going product, we probably won't offer more than one layout option. There may not even be a separate Mac model after the group buy.
We're doing this as an experiment. We don't know what the final outcome will be. This may be your only chance to get one.
In fact, if it turns out that there are no further production runs, the few that do get made could become quite valuable. The mechanical keyboard market is a little crazy in that regard.
Thanks a lot Matias. I love the way you've taken input on the design and I'm really looking forward to this one.
Thanks, we're pretty excited too. It cuts down our risk, and makes it easier for us to avoid unpopular design choices. Everybody wins.
Post by: cgbuen on Thu, 10 July 2014, 22:40:47
Post by: Matt3o on Fri, 11 July 2014, 01:09:41
Anyway very interesting project, if I had to pick a layout as they are now I'd take "Option C".
As per the FN location, in a 60% you use it A LOT and I find it uncomfortable to use in the second spot from the left. You need to bend your thumb too much and developed some sore in a similar layout. To me the best option is in lieu of the left alt key, right beside the spacebar (but I understand it's just personal preference). All this just to say that FN programmability it's a very important factor in a 60%, so at least give some options for that.
thanks for your efforts, I'll keep an eye on this.
Post by: Magna224 on Fri, 11 July 2014, 02:40:07
I must say I'm not a big fan of the bottom row.
Same.
Post by: Matias on Fri, 11 July 2014, 02:45:54
I must say I'm not a big fan of the bottom row. Why not simply a 65% layout if you want an arrow cluster, with a small gap to the left of the left arrow? (like I recently did (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=59827.0)).
You ask why an orange is not a grape. How to reply (http://geekhack.org/?topic=50523)?
:)
As per the FN location, in a 60% you use it A LOT and I find it uncomfortable to use in the second spot from the left. You need to bend your thumb too much and developed some sore in a similar layout. To me the best option is in lieu of the left alt key, right beside the spacebar (but I understand it's just personal preference). All this just to say that FN programmability it's a very important factor in a 60%, so at least give some options for that.
Okay, will consider adding that if more people request it. If it doesn't make the final cut, it's easy enough to wire up with a few jumpers.
Anyway very interesting project, if I had to pick a layout as they are now I'd take "Option C".
thanks for your efforts, I'll keep an eye on this.
Thanks, the GB will probably go up in another week.
Post by: Matias on Fri, 11 July 2014, 02:49:48
I must say I'm not a big fan of the bottom row.
Same.
You both might want to consider this...
[attachimg=1]
Post by: JaccoW on Fri, 11 July 2014, 03:22:08
Please don't put any extra keys around the arrow-keys. My worklaptop from Dell has that and I HATE it. I use the space to position myself and with extra keys I always hit them.
The Fn key is fine for me like that.
Also, will separate keysets be available? I would love to have a mini-groupbuy of white PBT caps and have them dye-subbed with italic Apple legends
(http://i.imgur.com/FXXfURa.jpg)
Post by: jacobolus on Fri, 11 July 2014, 03:37:35
You both might want to consider this...I completely agree. But if we’re going to start down that path, the biggest and lowest-hanging pieces of fruit on the ergonomics improvement front are, in my opinion: (1) Add a bit more hand separation (even just shifting all the right-hand keys over by one key width is quite a help) between the hands makes a huge difference, or alternately tilting the hands apart a bit more, as can be achieved by e.g. a symmetric stagger or a column stagger and some rotation. (2) Add some more useful things for the thumbs to do... it’s absurd that with the thumbs being the strongest and most flexible fingers, only one of them gets used on a standard keyboard. (3) Moving the commonly pressed backspace / backward delete key to somewhere that’s less of a reach, (4) bringing the right shift to an easier to reach position, something especially helpful for people with small hands. (With a split spacebar you can knock down 2 & 3 in one stroke). All of these are in my opinion more useful (and just as easy if not easier to achieve) as a taller spacebar.
[For what it’s worth, I think this current 60% board is going to be a great success, and I’m glad to see you guys try new layouts!]
Post by: spiceBar on Fri, 11 July 2014, 04:23:27
I must say I'm not a big fan of the bottom row.
Same.
You both might want to consider this...
(Attachment Link)
My studies revealed that in order to type, you must move SOME of your fingers on the keyboard. This causes discomfort to 98.53% of the world population.
Edgar, surely you can solve this once and for all? Please?
PS: I like to have my backspace key under the keyboard. When I make a typo, I smash the keyboard and it activates the backspace key located under it. You just have to design a carefully calibrated spring, and it works beautifully. Surely you can do that? Option 24b maybe?
PS2: I need to talk to you about these keys I put on the sides of the keyboard...
Post by: dorkvader on Sat, 12 July 2014, 02:17:53
My studies revealed that in order to type, you must move SOME of your fingers on the keyboard. This causes discomfort to 98.53% of the world population.Is this post for real?
Edgar, surely you can solve this once and for all? Please?
PS: I like to have my backspace key under the keyboard. When I make a typo, I smash the keyboard and it activates the backspace key located under it. You just have to design a carefully calibrated spring, and it works beautifully. Surely you can do that? Option 24b maybe?
PS2: I need to talk to you about these keys I put on the sides of the keyboard...
On topic: I really like option "A". Of the three, it appeals to me the most. I see myself using it easily, and I imagine it being relatively comfortable. It may be a bit harder for cherry MX switch people to get keycaps for it: other than cutting or DIY options, I only know of pinnacle who made short keycaps like that, and I still don't think large cherry switches will fit under it.
Fortunately, I do have some big bags of matias switches to use :)
Post by: Matt3o on Sat, 12 July 2014, 02:33:09
I must say I'm not a big fan of the bottom row.
Same.
You both might want to consider this...
(Attachment Link)
sorry, but I don't see the point. In your design the spacebar is not big enough and doesn't stick out enough from the keyboard profile to meet the ergonomic benefit shown in the picture.
You wanted a dedicated arrow cluster and you found a smart solution to your problem, I don't think you get enough ergonomic benefit from that though. But what do I know?
Post by: jacobolus on Sat, 12 July 2014, 03:41:29
sorry, but I don't see the point. In your design the spacebar is not big enough and doesn't stick out enough from the keyboard profile to meet the ergonomic benefit shown in the picture.Have you tried it? I think having the bottom edge of the spacebar an extra 3/8" closer to the body is a noticeable improvement.
Post by: Matt3o on Sat, 12 July 2014, 03:58:47
EDIT: oh but I added "But what do I know?" it was not sarcastic. I really know nothing about ergonomics.
Post by: twiddle on Sat, 12 July 2014, 04:17:30
PC, ANSI, Option A, DIY Parts
combo.
Post by: Matias on Sat, 12 July 2014, 04:51:48
Also, will separate keysets be available? I would love to have a mini-groupbuy of white PBT caps and have them dye-subbed with italic Apple legendsShow Image(http://i.imgur.com/FXXfURa.jpg)
Yes, we'll be selling ABS keycaps soon, and will have full PBT available when we have complete tooling.
In the mean time, you can get REAL dye-subbed PBT caps with italic Apple legends very cheaply from a donor board off eBay (as mentioned in this thread (http://geekhack.org/?topic=60499.0)). You just need to soak them clean in a keycap bath (http://geekhack.org/?topic=6856.msg110538#msg110538)...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/360985120434
http://www.ebay.com/itm/171384152259
http://www.ebay.com/itm/251584952884
Please don't put any extra keys around the arrow-keys. My worklaptop from Dell has that and I HATE it. I use the space to position myself and with extra keys I always hit them.
Yes, this was discussed in some detail in the other thread. As you say, those spaces are there for a reason.
You both might want to consider this...I completely agree. But if we’re going to start down that path, the biggest and lowest-hanging pieces of fruit on the ergonomics improvement front are, in my opinion: (1) Add a bit more hand separation (even just shifting all the right-hand keys over by one key width is quite a help) between the hands makes a huge difference, or alternately tilting the hands apart a bit more, as can be achieved by e.g. a symmetric stagger or a column stagger and some rotation. (2) Add some more useful things for the thumbs to do... it’s absurd that with the thumbs being the strongest and most flexible fingers, only one of them gets used on a standard keyboard. (3) Moving the commonly pressed backspace / backward delete key to somewhere that’s less of a reach, (4) bringing the right shift to an easier to reach position, something especially helpful for people with small hands. (With a split spacebar you can knock down 2 & 3 in one stroke). All of these are in my opinion more useful (and just as easy if not easier to achieve) as a taller spacebar.
That is WAY beyond the scope of this project. :)
Really, if you need something ergonomic, the Ergo Pro (http://matias.ca/ergopro) is what you want.
[For what it’s worth, I think this current 60% board is going to be a great success, and I’m glad to see you guys try new layouts!]
Thanks, we're pretty hopeful too!
On topic: I really like option "A". Of the three, it appeals to me the most. I see myself using it easily, and I imagine it being relatively comfortable. It may be a bit harder for cherry MX switch people to get keycaps for it: other than cutting or DIY options, I only know of pinnacle who made short keycaps like that, and I still don't think large cherry switches will fit under it.
Thanks and FYI... Only the top 4 rows support Cherry switches. Cherrys are too big to fit the arrow keys. Bottom row is ALPS only.
sorry, but I don't see the point. In your design the spacebar is not big enough and doesn't stick out enough from the keyboard profile to meet the ergonomic benefit shown in the picture.Have you tried it? I think having the bottom edge of the spacebar an extra 3/8" closer to the body is a noticeable improvement.
You really would have to try it, to be convinced. I used a prototype for several weeks, and it was noticeably more comfortable.
We also put a nice rounded curve on the spacebar where your thumbs make contact. This makes it even more comfortable. Many spacebars have a sharp edge where your thumbs touch.
Post by: Matt3o on Sat, 12 July 2014, 04:58:10
You really would have to try it, to be convinced. I used a prototype for several weeks, and it was noticeably more comfortable.
We also put a nice rounded curve on the spacebar where your thumb makes contact. This makes it even more comfortable. Many spacebars have a sharp edge where the thumb touches.
I'm actually looking forward to trying it. I'll probably catch this just because I like to try different things and I'm a bit fed up of all these all-the-same 60% layout.
The only think that I ask is for a re-locable FN key. I can reprogram all the keys but not FN.
Post by: Matt3o on Sat, 12 July 2014, 05:03:18
(http://i.imgur.com/KDq6CyA.png)
Post by: Matias on Sat, 12 July 2014, 05:26:27
I'm actually looking forward to trying it. I'll probably catch this just because I like to try different things and I'm a bit fed up of all these all-the-same 60% layout.
The only think that I ask is for a re-locable FN key. I can reprogram all the keys but not FN.
Here, these (IMHO) should be the available options for FN.Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/KDq6CyA.png)
Okay, will see what I can do. At the bare minimum, i can post instructions for where to solder the jumpers.
Post by: jacobolus on Sat, 12 July 2014, 05:38:38
In the mean time, you can get REAL dye-subbed PBT caps with italic Apple legends very cheaply from a donor board off eBay (as mentioned in this thread (http://geekhack.org/?topic=60499.0)). You just need to soak them clean in a keycap scrub (http://geekhack.org/?topic=60478.msg1396456#msg1396456) bath (http://retr0bright.wikispaces.com)...Note, PBT keycaps from the 80s / early 90s (including Apple’s) don’t really experience much yellowing, or benefit from retrobrite [the cases and ABS spacebars on the other hand...]. What they do get is dirty, so I’d recommend soaking them in denture cleaner or detergent, and maybe scrubbing the especially dirty ones a bit with a sponge.
Post by: Norwegian on Sat, 12 July 2014, 06:15:23
- PC
- ISO (Nordic. Yes I do like my ÆØÅ's...)
- Option A.
- Clicky ALPS
- Fully Assembled Keyboard
What color-scheme will the case/keys come in? Perhaps you've already answered, so sorry for missing it.
Post by: RED-404 on Wed, 16 July 2014, 13:29:46
If you're doing a minimal case like a Poker, Tex or Hammer then I will buy it, I really like the layout and have no problem with the none standard size keys.
Post by: hjkl_over_wasd on Sat, 19 July 2014, 11:51:53
I have one more question/request:
I have just gotten an HHKB and I'm faced with the choice of either changing my muscle memory to hit the key right above (ANSI) enter to do a backspace, or keep using what is common ANSI and have backspace at the top right.
In other words, I might have to remap my HHKB and stay with the common layout for the backspace key.
I do understand the rationale for having backspace right above the enter key on an ANSI layout, but this will completely mess up my muscle memory. The thing is that I already am used to having ctrl and esc as caps lock in a dual role setup, but in my opinion, this it completely worth having even though it completely deviates from the standard. Since I already am using an unconventional keyboard layout, I am doomed to never feel comfortable on a default keyboard layout anyways and will most likely have to bring a 60% wherever I have to work on a computer for more than half an hour.
Then it only boils down to one factor:
(TL;DR)
Will/can there be a DIP switch setting to toggle HHKB backspace positioning for the Matias 60% keyboard?
This would flip the positions of the '\|'-key and backspace.
Post by: hjkl_over_wasd on Sat, 19 July 2014, 12:16:12
What about mapping shift+backspace to Del?
Post by: Matias on Wed, 23 July 2014, 15:43:55
Note, PBT keycaps from the 80s / early 90s (including Apple’s) don’t really experience much yellowing, or benefit from retrobrite [the cases and ABS spacebars on the other hand...]. What they do get is dirty, so I’d recommend soaking them in denture cleaner or detergent, and maybe scrubbing the especially dirty ones a bit with a sponge.
Yes, that's true. I've changed the link to something more appropriate.
What color-scheme will the case/keys come in? Perhaps you've already answered, so sorry for missing it.
Stock colour will be black, but we'll be selling white keycaps soon, and eventually other colours.
I just wanted to check if you planned on a nice minimal keyboard case like what's in the mockup
Yes, it will be minimalist, as shown in the drawings. I'm leaving for China on Sunday and will be working on it while I'm there.
(TL;DR)
Will/can there be a DIP switch setting to toggle HHKB backspace positioning for the Matias 60% keyboard?
This would flip the positions of the '\|'-key and backspace.
Okay, will consider adding this. Seems a little odd, though.
What about mapping shift+backspace to Del?
Better you remap that in the OS. I'm sure some software will conflict if we do it in the keyboard.
Post by: geniekid on Wed, 23 July 2014, 15:52:41
(TL;DR)
Will/can there be a DIP switch setting to toggle HHKB backspace positioning for the Matias 60% keyboard?
This would flip the positions of the '\|'-key and backspace.
Okay, will consider adding this. Seems a little odd, though.
I found the HHKB layout allowed me to hit backspace without moving my right hand off the home row. I can do this on a normal layout but I have to turn my arm.
Post by: Matias on Wed, 23 July 2014, 16:15:52
(TL;DR)
Will/can there be a DIP switch setting to toggle HHKB backspace positioning for the Matias 60% keyboard?
This would flip the positions of the '\|'-key and backspace.
Okay, will consider adding this. Seems a little odd, though.
I found the HHKB layout allowed me to hit backspace without moving my right hand off the home row. I can do this on a normal layout but I have to turn my arm.
Are all HHKB set up this way?
Post by: geniekid on Wed, 23 July 2014, 16:33:30
(TL;DR)
Will/can there be a DIP switch setting to toggle HHKB backspace positioning for the Matias 60% keyboard?
This would flip the positions of the '\|'-key and backspace.
Okay, will consider adding this. Seems a little odd, though.
I found the HHKB layout allowed me to hit backspace without moving my right hand off the home row. I can do this on a normal layout but I have to turn my arm.
Are all HHKB set up this way?
I don't know about the JP version, but I believe all Western versions are setup this way. Actually, by default, the key in question is set to Del and Backspace is Fn+Del. You can toggle a dip switch to make it Backspace (with Fn+Backspace=Del).
See this picture from EK:
[attachimg=1]
Post by: hjkl_over_wasd on Wed, 23 July 2014, 23:20:00
Will the case for the Matias 60% have a flat angle and relatively low profile?
The TEX aluminum case is really nice. Completely flat angle and only 13mm tall.
Post by: hjkl_over_wasd on Thu, 24 July 2014, 00:01:28
Post by: Matias on Thu, 24 July 2014, 09:59:01
I don't know about the JP version, but I believe all Western versions are setup this way. Actually, by default, the key in question is set to Del and Backspace is Fn+Del. You can toggle a dip switch to make it Backspace (with Fn+Backspace=Del).
See this picture from EK:
(Attachment Link)
Okay, thanks.
Seems like they designed it for a specific variety of Unix user.
You mentioned something about a fiberglass plate. Will this be the default plate material, or will it be steel? If you're going for steel plates as the default, can we choose to get a spare fiberglass plate if we're part of the group buy?
Our plan is to offer steel plates, unless the MOQ is not reached for a particular layout -- in which case we would offer a fiberglass plate for that layout.
Of course, if you have a specific request for fiberglass, that's no problem. MOQ for fiberglass is 1pc.
After I've been using my HHKB for a week or so, I've come to realize how important the design of the keyboard case really is. The thing that really ruins it for me when it comes to the HHKB is its case. I find that the keys are angled pretty steep by default and the board comes with legs that can tilt the angle even more.
Will the case for the Matias 60% have a flat angle and relatively low profile?
The TEX aluminum case is really nice. Completely flat angle and only 13mm tall.
Yes, it will be as low profile as we can make it, with a very slight slope. See attached.
[ Note that I edited the image originally posted, to better reflect what it'll actually look like from the side. You'll see the green part. The grey foot mounts will be positioned further inward, and mostly obscured from view. ]
Was planning to include feet, unless there are strong objections.
[attachimg=1]
Post by: FuriousGeorge on Thu, 24 July 2014, 11:49:29
Post by: hjkl_over_wasd on Thu, 24 July 2014, 12:32:50
You mentioned something about a fiberglass plate. Will this be the default plate material, or will it be steel? If you're going for steel plates as the default, can we choose to get a spare fiberglass plate if we're part of the group buy?
Our plan is to offer steel plates, unless the MOQ is not reached for a particular layout -- in which case we would offer a fiberglass plate for that layout.
Of course, if you have a specific request for fiberglass, that's no problem. MOQ for fiberglass is 1pc.
Great! My key mashing fingers don't like hard surfaces like steel.
After I've been using my HHKB for a week or so, I've come to realize how important the design of the keyboard case really is. The thing that really ruins it for me when it comes to the HHKB is its case. I find that the keys are angled pretty steep by default and the board comes with legs that can tilt the angle even more.
Will the case for the Matias 60% have a flat angle and relatively low profile?
The TEX aluminum case is really nice. Completely flat angle and only 13mm tall.
Yes, it will be as low profile as we can make it, with a very slight slope. See attached.
[ Note that I edited the image originally posted, to better reflect what it'll actually look like from the side. You'll see the green part. The grey foot mounts will be positioned further inward, and mostly obscured from view. ]
Was planning to include feet, unless there are strong objections.
(Attachment Link)
My wrists really don't like any angles, so if it's possible to somehow have the sloped optional, I would be very greatful. Even though the angle doesn't seem incredibly steep, I am very worried about being barred from using a brilliant keyboard simply because of ergonomic reasons.
Could you please embellish on why you want the angled slope?
Post by: AKmalamute on Thu, 24 July 2014, 15:53:52
Having said that, a few coworkers have their under-desk kbd tray set to invert the angle. Maybe for the GB, the same could be accomplished by having the case have a matching set of holes so the PCB can be reversed? Still a slight angle, but then the feet would be *toward* the user ... achieving hjkl's desires ... and no doubt a few others' as well.
Post by: hjkl_over_wasd on Thu, 24 July 2014, 17:32:37
a slight angle is what every one wants/expects, so it will be more marketable.
Having said that, a few coworkers have their under-desk kbd tray set to invert the angle. Maybe for the GB, the same could be accomplished by having the case have a matching set of holes so the PCB can be reversed? Still a slight angle, but then the feet would be *toward* the user ... achieving hjkl's desires ... and no doubt a few others' as well.
I definitely second this suggestion. Great idea.
Post by: Matias on Thu, 24 July 2014, 21:37:34
Are the arrow keys higher than the rest of the bottom row? I had seen the earlier pictures and I think I assumed that area was raised because it was using a different switch that was shorter and needed the extra height. I realize now that with the smaller size of the switches it's probably just a normal switch and it will actually end up being taller. I'd suspect it's to make the arrow keys easier to locate by touch, but with the blank spaces to the left and right of up arrow I would think it would already be easy to pick it up. It may be too late to change, but personally I'd prefer to have the bottom row a consistent height.
You're mostly correct. Long answer below... (and see attached)
The switches are all the same over the entire keyboard.
The arrow keys use 0.75x1u keycaps. Because of the tighter spacing on the nearest & farthest sides, the keycap skirts are shorter -- which necessitates the case being a little higher there, to fill the gaps. Otherwise the switches would be exposed.
The farthest edge of the keycap is your point of reference for feeling where the arrow keys are. Because of the shorter skirts, that edge would not be high enough to feel -- so we fix it by using the row-4 keycap instead. It's just a little higher but easy to find by touch.
We actually did quite a lot of user testing on this. The R4 cap tested best for comfort and ease of acquisition.
Short answer... It's designed correctly. You don't need to worry.
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Matias on Thu, 24 July 2014, 22:05:00
My wrists really don't like any angles, so if it's possible to somehow have the sloped optional, I would be very greatful. Even though the angle doesn't seem incredibly steep, I am very worried about being barred from using a brilliant keyboard simply because of ergonomic reasons.
Could you please embellish on why you want the angled slope?
The slight slope is there solely to accommodate thickness of the fold-out legs when they are folded in. The only way to get rid of the slope is to get rid of the legs.
Also, most people expect a little bit of an angle. If the desk is high, a little positive tilt helps your wrists accommodate that height.
If your desk is low (or has a keyboard tray that's lower), then flat or negative tilt is better. The more high-end keyboard trays can be angled to eliminate the positive tilt of most keyboards.
a slight angle is what every one wants/expects, so it will be more marketable.
Having said that, a few coworkers have their under-desk kbd tray set to invert the angle. Maybe for the GB, the same could be accomplished by having the case have a matching set of holes so the PCB can be reversed? Still a slight angle, but then the feet would be *toward* the user ... achieving hjkl's desires ... and no doubt a few others' as well.
I definitely second this suggestion. Great idea.
Unfortunately, that won't work with this design. The case is not symmetrical, so you can't rotate the PCB. See below for what I mean.
If you REALLY want it flat, then the only option would be to do a one-off CNC'd plastic one just for you, but that would cost several hundred dollars to do.
[attachimg=1]
Post by: FuriousGeorge on Fri, 25 July 2014, 02:40:48
Post by: jdcarpe on Fri, 25 July 2014, 06:44:59
Post by: mashby on Fri, 25 July 2014, 08:01:43
Another vote for the ability to swap backspace into the position above the Enter key. HHKB has spoiled me to this, and it's available via a DIP switch setting on my KUL ES-87.
Agreed. I've fallen prey to this same layout.
Post by: Matias on Fri, 25 July 2014, 09:04:06
Another vote for the ability to swap backspace into the position above the Enter key. HHKB has spoiled me to this, and it's available via a DIP switch setting on my KUL ES-87.
Agreed. I've fallen prey to this same layout.
Okay, will add it.
At this rate, we're going to have more DIP switches than keys... :rolleyes:
Post by: geniekid on Fri, 25 July 2014, 09:27:13
Another vote for the ability to swap backspace into the position above the Enter key. HHKB has spoiled me to this, and it's available via a DIP switch setting on my KUL ES-87.
Agreed. I've fallen prey to this same layout.
Okay, will add it.
At this rate, we're going to have more DIP switches than keys... :rolleyes:
I'm more or less vocalizing support for layout features that I enjoy. In actuality, I would buy this no matter what tweaks were available. My thinking goes like this - unless every single feature I want is supported, I'll still be trying to replace the controller with a fully programmable one. Obviously I can't speak for anyone else, but the primary draw of this keyboard for me is the physical layout.
Post by: jdcarpe on Fri, 25 July 2014, 09:35:55
At this rate, we're going to have more DIP switches than keys... :rolleyes:
;D
(http://i.imgur.com/ZMDiKrW.png)
Post by: Matias on Fri, 25 July 2014, 09:58:20
At this rate, we're going to have more DIP switches than keys... :rolleyes:
;DShow Image(http://i.imgur.com/ZMDiKrW.png)
My god, I really hope that's a Photoshopped image...
Post by: jdcarpe on Fri, 25 July 2014, 10:12:24
My god, I really hope that's a Photoshopped image...
Haha, yeah that's my terrible photoshop hack.
Post by: Matias on Fri, 25 July 2014, 11:02:11
Another vote for the ability to swap backspace into the position above the Enter key. HHKB has spoiled me to this, and it's available via a DIP switch setting on my KUL ES-87.
Agreed. I've fallen prey to this same layout.
Okay, will add it.
At this rate, we're going to have more DIP switches than keys... :rolleyes:
I'm more or less vocalizing support for layout features that I enjoy. In actuality, I would buy this no matter what tweaks were available. My thinking goes like this - unless every single feature I want is supported, I'll still be trying to replace the controller with a fully programmable one. Obviously I can't speak for anyone else, but the primary draw of this keyboard for me is the physical layout.
Okay, thanks.
And my goal with this project is to try to keep things basic as possible, but facilitate customization for people willing/able to do their own mods. If enough people want something, I'll add it -- but I'm trying to avoid something that ends up looking like this...
http://simpsons.wikia.com/wiki/The_Homer
http://danicast83.wordpress.com/2013/09/16/the-homer
(http://danicast83.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/the_homer_01_by_danicast831.jpg)
Post by: FuriousGeorge on Fri, 25 July 2014, 11:56:23
Post by: Matias on Sun, 27 July 2014, 03:02:53
Thanks to everyone for their feedback and suggestions...
Post by: blackbox on Sun, 27 July 2014, 05:03:14
Post by: Belfong on Sun, 27 July 2014, 08:33:03
Mac and ANSI and Clicky switch!
Option C because you said that Fn and arrow keys are able to simulate Home, End, Page Up and Page Down (but I'm ok with B also)
And Fully Assembled please..
Post by: hjkl_over_wasd on Sun, 27 July 2014, 11:38:59
Post by: geniekid on Sun, 27 July 2014, 11:43:42
Matias, please change my order to option C. I hope it's not too late to change the order. I have edited the post that contains my order.
I think this project is still purely in the Interest Check phase.
Post by: spiceBar on Mon, 28 July 2014, 05:02:00
At this rate, we're going to have more DIP switches than keys... :rolleyes:
;DShow Image(http://i.imgur.com/ZMDiKrW.png)
LOL :)
User's manual
Volume 1/12: DIP switches 1 to 4 (324 pages)
Post by: zxz on Tue, 29 July 2014, 12:32:04
PC
ISO
Full Cluster-Option A
Quiet Switches
Fully built
Post by: Nuum on Tue, 29 July 2014, 13:35:58
Keycaps:
PC
ISO
Nav Cluster:
Option A
Switches:
Clicky ALPS
Pre-Assembled or Kit:
Both
And I would actually prefer it, if the spacebar would be centered on F and J.
Post by: Matias on Tue, 29 July 2014, 14:52:26
Matias, please change my order to option C. I hope it's not too late to change the order. I have edited the post that contains my order.
I think this project is still purely in the Interest Check phase.
Yes, have not posted the GB yet, but hope to do that soon.
Sounds interesting, will there be a usb hub like on the mini pro?
No hub on this one, but you can certainly plug it into one.
Post by: mkawa on Tue, 29 July 2014, 18:25:15
Post by: luckynet on Sat, 09 August 2014, 10:28:25
Post by: Matias on Sat, 09 August 2014, 20:21:53
Been a little busy with the Ergo Pro and another project, but the 60% is still proceeding as planned.
Post by: dante on Sun, 10 August 2014, 17:23:01
We'll be getting PCB and mounting plate samples for Option C in a few days. If no problems, we'll then do Option A samples. Probably will not start on the case drawing until after the GB is complete.
Been a little busy with the Ergo Pro and another project, but the 60% is still proceeding as planned.
Originally I was not interested in this, Matias. However - I could regain interest if a certain criteria could be met...
Most of these mini keyboards are anywhere from 1.25"-1.6" thick. I know you can get a wrist rest for more comfort - but some of us prefer to go without that for various personal reasons.
Is there anyway to make this much thinner than usual? Say 1.00"-1.10" thick? The upcoming Ducky Mini showcases this as a feature on theirs "The lowest we could possibly lower our switches." Having a thinner keyboard could possibly wrangle in some additional purchases from folks who have shyed away from Mechanical Keyboards because it's like typing on a phone book (Blame Apple and their excellent Aluminum keyboards for this.)
Post by: Matias on Mon, 11 August 2014, 00:22:10
We'll be getting PCB and mounting plate samples for Option C in a few days. If no problems, we'll then do Option A samples. Probably will not start on the case drawing until after the GB is complete.
Been a little busy with the Ergo Pro and another project, but the 60% is still proceeding as planned.
Originally I was not interested in this, Matias. However - I could regain interest if a certain criteria could be met...
Most of these mini keyboards are anywhere from 1.25"-1.6" thick. I know you can get a wrist rest for more comfort - but some of us prefer to go without that for various personal reasons.
Is there anyway to make this much thinner than usual? Say 1.00"-1.10" thick?
It's already that thin now. I just measured it...
Distance from the bottom of the case to the top of the Row1 keycap is 27.5mm or 1.08".
Having a thinner keyboard could possibly wrangle in some additional purchases from folks who have shyed away from Mechanical Keyboards because it's like typing on a phone book (Blame Apple and their excellent Aluminum keyboards for this.)
Yes, we're well aware of this. Not everyone is into the classic styling + hubs. That's why our 60% is going aggressively thinner and more minimalist, in size and styling.
Post by: RED-404 on Mon, 11 August 2014, 01:32:09
Yes, we're well aware of this. Not everyone is into the classic styling + hubs. That's why our 60% is going aggressively thinner and more minimalist, in size and styling.Me reading this. :) :D ;D ^-^ ^-^ ^-^ ^-^ ^-^ ^-^ ^-^ ^-^ ^-^ ^-^ ^-^ ^-^ :thumb:
Post by: hjkl_over_wasd on Mon, 11 August 2014, 01:44:59
It's already that thin now. I just measured it...
Distance from the bottom of the case to the top of the Row1 keycap is 27.5mm or 1.08".
What row is "Row1"? Space row, shift row, enter row, tab row, or number row? Can you please share the measurements for the tallest point of the keyboard and the lowest point of the keyboard?
Looking forward to seeing the group buy soon. Any idea of how much this will cost, or is this still too early to tell? Ballpark figure of course..
Post by: Matias on Mon, 11 August 2014, 02:34:58
What row is "Row1"? Space row, shift row, enter row, tab row, or number row? Can you please share the measurements for the tallest point of the keyboard and the lowest point of the keyboard?
Looking forward to seeing the group buy soon. Any idea of how much this will cost, or is this still too early to tell? Ballpark figure of course..
Spacebar and Shift key rows are Row1 height = 27.5mm from keycap tip to bottom case.
Numbers/Backspace row is Row4 height = 28.5mm from keycap tip to bottom case.
The supports for foldout legs will protrude from the bottom about 8 or 9mm, in the two spots where the legs are.
It's too early to know the cost, but I'd guess in the $100 to $150 range, depending on how many people buy.
Post by: Matias on Mon, 11 August 2014, 02:50:55
Further to my previous post, and to give you a better idea of how slim it will be, below is a screen snap of the mounting plate...
We're going right to the edge of what's possible. You can see (especially near the Nav Cluster) that it's as slim as it can be.
[attachimg=1]
Post by: nuclearsandwich on Mon, 11 August 2014, 03:46:54
Further to my previous post, and to give you a better idea of how slim it will be, below is a screen snap of the mounting plate...
We're going right to the edge of what's possible. You can see (especially near the Nav Cluster) that it's as slim as it can be.
(Attachment Link)
How is the plate going to be mounted? Or is this going to be a caseless bent stainless build?
Post by: jacobolus on Mon, 11 August 2014, 03:47:01
This is the plate for use with MX switches outside the bottom row? How do those stabilizer holes work?Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/pCNhDeY.png)
Post by: Matias on Mon, 11 August 2014, 06:11:31
This is the plate for use with MX switches outside the bottom row? How do those stabilizer holes work?Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/pCNhDeY.png)
Yes, and stabilizer holes are for hooks to hold the stabilizer (Costar style). Four holes are shown, to support separate stabilizers for ALPS and Cherry.
See below for more detail (ALPS only shown)...
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Matias on Mon, 11 August 2014, 06:17:34
Further to my previous post, and to give you a better idea of how slim it will be, below is a screen snap of the mounting plate...
We're going right to the edge of what's possible. You can see (especially near the Nav Cluster) that it's as slim as it can be.
(Attachment Link)
How is the plate going to be mounted? Or is this going to be a caseless bent stainless build?
It will sit on posts, and will be held in place by screws that screw into the bottom case. See IC for case drawings... http://matias.ca/60
Post by: jacobolus on Mon, 11 August 2014, 06:33:11
Yes, and stabilizer holes are for hooks to hold the stabilizer (Costar style). Four holes are shown, to support separate stabilizers for ALPS and Cherry.Interesting. So I take it you’ll be selling the plastic stabilizer inserts/clips and bent wires compatible with MX-mount keycaps as well? Are you willing to sell just the stabilizer parts (both MX and Alps versions) in bulk, separately from this keyboard? And if so, how soon will those be ready for sale?
See below for more detail (ALPS only shown)...
How well do they work compared to standard Alps stabilizers or standard Costar-style stabilizers?
I ask partly because there are several types of Alps keycaps that use MX mounts for the stabilizer inserts. It looks like this might be the first keyboard compatible (by swapping out the stabilizer parts) with both those and standard Alps keycaps.
Post by: Matias on Mon, 11 August 2014, 08:00:39
Yes, and stabilizer holes are for hooks to hold the stabilizer (Costar style). Four holes are shown, to support separate stabilizers for ALPS and Cherry.Interesting. So I take it you’ll be selling the plastic stabilizer inserts/clips and bent wires compatible with MX-mount keycaps as well? Are you willing to sell just the stabilizer parts (both MX and Alps versions) in bulk, separately from this keyboard? And if so, how soon will those be ready for sale?
See below for more detail (ALPS only shown)...
For ALPS, absolutely yes. For Cherry, probably yes.
We're still working out the details for Cherry compatibility. It's possible that we may be able to get a single stabilizer wire to work for both. We need to build one and test it. Should know fairly soon.
How well do they work compared to standard Alps stabilizers or standard Costar-style stabilizers?
Equally well. They are the same spec. Costar used to make our boards.
I ask partly because there are several types of Alps keycaps that use MX mounts for the stabilizer inserts. It looks like this might be the first keyboard compatible (by swapping out the stabilizer parts) with both those and standard Alps keycaps.
Yes, that's our goal with this. Just gotta finish working out the ugly details. :-)
Post by: jacobolus on Mon, 11 August 2014, 13:55:47
Post by: Matias on Mon, 11 August 2014, 19:21:38
One thing that bothers me a tiny bit about the stabilizer inserts the way you’ve pictured them: they look like they make stabilized keycaps a lot harder to remove from the keyboard than standard Alps stabilizer inserts, which are a full slot and so let the wire just slip right out.
That's true, but it's also more effective as a stabilizer -- since it provides 2 axes of stabilization vs. just the one provided by standard ALPS inserts.
Post by: dante on Mon, 11 August 2014, 21:42:02
PC
ANSI
Full Cluster-Option A
Fully Assembled
I will take 1x Clicky and 1x Quiet.
Post by: jacobolus on Mon, 11 August 2014, 22:32:36
That's true, but it's also more effective as a stabilizer -- since it provides 2 axes of stabilization vs. just the one provided by standard ALPS inserts.Hm, I’m not sure I can agree with that. This stabilizer inserts, like the Alps inserts and Costar-style MX inserts and these ones you’ve designed, has a bit of space for the wire to move forward and backward, which is required because the wire is rotating not just moving straight up and down, so needs to move laterally. Thus, the amount of stabilization along that second axis is determined mostly by how tight the top and the bottom of the plastic slot is to the diameter of the wire. Whether the slot is open at the end or not is only relevant insofar as it prevents the plastic from bending, but in my experience the Alps inserts are rigid enough that that shouldn’t really make much difference.
So I’m skeptical that your version is more effective as a stabilizer (at least, not for that reason; maybe its other tolerances / material makes it more effective). On the other hand, if someone tries to pull the keycap off with excessive force, it’ll be less likely to break the insert, and a bit more likely to break the little clip that goes in the plate, I’m guessing.
Post by: Matias on Mon, 11 August 2014, 23:15:07
That's true, but it's also more effective as a stabilizer -- since it provides 2 axes of stabilization vs. just the one provided by standard ALPS inserts.
Hm, I’m not sure I can agree with that. This stabilizer inserts, like the Alps inserts and Costar-style MX inserts and these ones you’ve designed, has a bit of space for the wire to move forward and backward, which is required because the wire is rotating not just moving straight up and down, so needs to move laterally. Thus, the amount of stabilization along that second axis is determined mostly by how tight the top and the bottom of the plastic slot is to the diameter of the wire. Whether the slot is open at the end or not is only relevant insofar as it prevents the plastic from bending, but in my experience the Alps inserts are rigid enough that that shouldn’t really make much difference.
So I’m skeptical that your version is more effective as a stabilizer (at least, not for that reason; maybe its other tolerances / material makes it more effective). On the other hand, if someone tries to pull the keycap off with excessive force, it’ll be less likely to break the insert, and a bit more likely to break the little clip that goes in the plate, I’m guessing.
Well, you could test your theory by cutting one and testing to see if it still works. If it does, then the ALPS ones are just as good. If it doesn't, then you know there's at least some measure of additional stabilization...
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Matias on Tue, 12 August 2014, 01:40:02
Matias, Per your comments on low profile I would like:
PC
ANSI
Full Cluster-Option A
Fully Assembled
I will take 1x Clicky and 1x Quiet.
Thanks, it's looking like PC users prefer Full-Cluster Option-A, and Mac users prefer Arrows-only Option-C.
Post by: hjkl_over_wasd on Wed, 13 August 2014, 07:23:47
Post by: Matias on Wed, 13 August 2014, 08:44:19
OK, I might change my mind again. Where will the navigation cluster keys be located on the FN layer on option B (PC)?
On the arrow keys...
Fn Up = PgUp
Fn Dn = PgDn
Fn Left = Home
Fn Right = End
Post by: hjkl_over_wasd on Wed, 13 August 2014, 10:37:22
OK, I might change my mind again. Where will the navigation cluster keys be located on the FN layer on option B (PC)?
On the arrow keys...
Fn Up = PgUp
Fn Dn = PgDn
Fn Left = Home
Fn Right = End
OK, changed my mind. Going for Option B (PC).
EDIT: Modified my original "order".
Post by: RED-404 on Wed, 13 August 2014, 13:26:11
OK, I might change my mind again. Where will the navigation cluster keys be located on the FN layer on option B (PC)?
On the arrow keys...
Fn Up = PgUp
Fn Dn = PgDn
Fn Left = Home
Fn Right = End
OK, changed my mind. Going for Option B (PC).
EDIT: Modified my original "order".
Same order edited to Option B (PC) granted, I still like the look of Option A
BTW Matias that was your 666th post such a waste. :rolleyes:
Post by: Adopta on Wed, 13 August 2014, 14:13:12
I would be interested in
option B
ISO layout
Quiet alps
Mac
Fully assembled
Post by: dante on Thu, 14 August 2014, 12:18:40
Interesting question (!)
From what I know you'll be coming out with a new Linear Alps switch soon (not sure if quiet or not). Will it be ready by time these kits are ready to sell? Or would you be open to making a small batch of those switches so folks can order it as an option - test and give feedback?
If so I'd like to add a 3rd board to my order with this new switch - same specs.
Post by: lhl on Fri, 15 August 2014, 15:52:33
Mac
Option A
ANSI
Quiet
Fully Assembled
Sounds like a lot of the layout options/concerns are being addressed, but having the mechanicals for replacing the controller for something fully programmable is a big plus!
Post by: pasph on Sat, 16 August 2014, 07:42:31
option a
ISO layout
Clicky
PC
Fully assembled
Post by: hjkl_over_wasd on Mon, 18 August 2014, 23:20:33
I really think this one feature would be great to have and it would certainly set your board apart from everything else. http://www.reddit.com/r/vim/comments/2dwvs5/little_script_to_remap_the_capslock_and_return/ (http://www.reddit.com/r/vim/comments/2dwvs5/little_script_to_remap_the_capslock_and_return/)
It would make up for not having two ctrl keys on a cramped 60% board in an elegant way. I really hope you'll add it to the firmware as it will only require another dip switch. If you don't want to add another dip switch, could you at least add it in with the "caps-lock is ctrl" option? I mean, who spams the enter key anyways?
Post by: Matias on Wed, 20 August 2014, 15:12:54
Matias, is it too late to suggest another dip switch functionality?
I really think this one feature would be great to have and it would certainly set your board apart from everything else. http://www.reddit.com/r/vim/comments/2dwvs5/little_script_to_remap_the_capslock_and_return/ (http://www.reddit.com/r/vim/comments/2dwvs5/little_script_to_remap_the_capslock_and_return/)
It would make up for not having two ctrl keys on a cramped 60% board in an elegant way. I really hope you'll add it to the firmware as it will only require another dip switch. If you don't want to add another dip switch, could you at least add it in with the "caps-lock is ctrl" option? I mean, who spams the enter key anyways?
Interesting idea. We can probably work it in.
BTW, we finished the mounting plate samples and the dual ALPS/Cherry switch mounting does indeed work!
The samples were a little thin though, so we're getting a second set made thicker. Will post photos soon.
Post by: vivalarevolución on Wed, 20 August 2014, 15:32:43
Matias, is it too late to suggest another dip switch functionality?
I really think this one feature would be great to have and it would certainly set your board apart from everything else. http://www.reddit.com/r/vim/comments/2dwvs5/little_script_to_remap_the_capslock_and_return/ (http://www.reddit.com/r/vim/comments/2dwvs5/little_script_to_remap_the_capslock_and_return/)
It would make up for not having two ctrl keys on a cramped 60% board in an elegant way. I really hope you'll add it to the firmware as it will only require another dip switch. If you don't want to add another dip switch, could you at least add it in with the "caps-lock is ctrl" option? I mean, who spams the enter key anyways?
Interesting idea. We can probably work it in.
BTW, we finished the mounting plate samples and the dual ALPS/Cherry switch mounting does indeed work!
The samples were a little thin though, so we're getting a second set made thicker. Will post photos soon.
Who needs Cherry mounts? ALPS/Matias all the way!
Post by: jacobolus on Wed, 20 August 2014, 15:50:48
BTW, we finished the mounting plate samples and the dual ALPS/Cherry switch mounting does indeed work!How stable are the switches, compared to mounting them in an Alps-only plate?
Post by: Matias on Wed, 20 August 2014, 22:34:35
BTW, we finished the mounting plate samples and the dual ALPS/Cherry switch mounting does indeed work!
How stable are the switches, compared to mounting them in an Alps-only plate?
The thin plate we did is totally stable for Cherry, and stable for ALPS horizontally but not vertically. It works, but you need to take more care centering the ALPS switches vertically. That was with the thin plate only, and no PCB.
See attached drawing -- thin plate shown to the left of the switch...
You can see, the fin does not make contact with the thin plate on the left, so it doesn't force it into position.
To the right of the switch, you can see that thickening the plate should fix the problem...
[attachimg=1]
Having said all that, when you add in the PCB, even the thin plate is stable. The PCB fixes the vertical alignment problem, but I'd prefer that plate-only also be stable, so we're trying the thicker plate. I'm 95% confident this will work.
Post by: Matias on Wed, 20 August 2014, 23:00:34
I'm interested, is there an ETA on delivery?
Mac
Option A
ANSI
Quiet
Fully Assembled
Sounds like a lot of the layout options/concerns are being addressed, but having the mechanicals for replacing the controller for something fully programmable is a big plus!
No ETA yet, but yes, we're trying to do this in the most flexible way possible -- to make it easy to hack the hardware and replace the controller.
We're also releasing the offiicial PCB and plate drawings, to serve as a reference design for others wanting to support both Cherry and ALPS.
Who needs Cherry mounts? ALPS/Matias all the way!
Gotta say, I don't disagree... :-)
But it's a Cherry world out there, and we'll bring more people into the ALPS tent if we can leverage hybrid support.
Post by: jacobolus on Thu, 21 August 2014, 01:36:49
The thin plate we did is totally stable for Cherry, and stable for ALPS horizontally but not vertically. It works, but you need to take more care centering the ALPS switches vertically. That was with the thin plate only, and no PCB.Hmm, I’m not sure that seems quite right: on a typical plate (~1.5mm) doesn’t the tip of the “fin” clip in below the plate, holding the switch in place? Seems to me like the extent to which the fin snaps in or not depends mostly on how wide the switch hole is, rather than how thick the plate is per se. With a thicker plate, the tip of the fin is prevented from opening back up below the plate, so the switch is being held in by friction from the side, rather than from below from the fin tip as these were originally designed to work.
See attached drawing -- thin plate shown to the left of the switch...
You can see, the fin does not make contact with the thin plate on the left, so it doesn't force it into position.
To the right of the switch, you can see that thickening the plate should fix the problem...
I’ve found that very thick Alps plates, especially when the switch holes are tight, tend to break the little fins off much more easily than plates that are about 1.5mm thick (16 gauge steel?) with the proper width holes for the switches to nicely clip into.
In other words, the “thin” plate in your picture might be slightly too thin, but the “thick” plate looks quite a bit too thick to me.
Post by: Matias on Thu, 21 August 2014, 11:53:08
The thin plate we did is totally stable for Cherry, and stable for ALPS horizontally but not vertically. It works, but you need to take more care centering the ALPS switches vertically. That was with the thin plate only, and no PCB.Hmm, I’m not sure that seems quite right: on a typical plate (~1.5mm) doesn’t the tip of the “fin” clip in below the plate, holding the switch in place? Seems to me like the extent to which the fin snaps in or not depends mostly on how wide the switch hole is, rather than how thick the plate is per se. With a thicker plate, the tip of the fin is prevented from opening back up below the plate, so the switch is being held in by friction from the side, rather than from below from the fin tip as these were originally designed to work.
See attached drawing -- thin plate shown to the left of the switch...
You can see, the fin does not make contact with the thin plate on the left, so it doesn't force it into position.
To the right of the switch, you can see that thickening the plate should fix the problem...
I’ve found that very thick Alps plates, especially when the switch holes are tight, tend to break the little fins off much more easily than plates that are about 1.5mm thick (16 gauge steel?) with the proper width holes for the switches to nicely clip into.
In other words, the “thin” plate in your picture might be slightly too thin, but the “thick” plate looks quite a bit too thick to me.
I see your point...
Reducing the plate thickness to 1.5mm would probably work.
Another option would be to make the hole a little wider in the fin area.
In any case, we're getting the 2.1mm plate samples tomorrow, and will post the results...
Post by: wupi on Thu, 21 August 2014, 12:22:26
- PC / ISO
- Full Nav Cluster (option A)
- Clicky ALPS
- Fully Assembled Keyboard
Post by: Manchias on Sat, 23 August 2014, 08:40:58
Post by: Matias on Sun, 24 August 2014, 13:26:12
I really should be asleep right now, but I promised to post these, so here we go...
As you can see the hybrid ALPS-Cherry mounting plate + PCB actually works. Blue is real Cherry. Brown is fake (appropriately).
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
Post by: Heliosphere on Sun, 24 August 2014, 13:34:42
I really should be asleep right now, but I promised to post these, so here we go...
As you can see the hybrid ALPS-Cherry mounting plate + PCB actually works. Blue is real Cherry. Brown is fake (appropriately).
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
Cool! :thumb:
Post by: geniekid on Sun, 24 August 2014, 16:41:00
Post by: wetto on Sun, 24 August 2014, 17:58:59
I really should be asleep right now, but I promised to post these, so here we go...
As you can see the hybrid ALPS-Cherry mounting plate + PCB actually works. Blue is real Cherry. Brown is fake (appropriately).
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
I have the weirdest boner right now.
Seriously, that's gorgeous.
Post by: hjkl_over_wasd on Mon, 25 August 2014, 01:42:49
This makes me look forward to seeing an assembled prototype.
Post by: vivalarevolución on Mon, 25 August 2014, 08:01:14
I really should be asleep right now, but I promised to post these, so here we go...
As you can see the hybrid ALPS-Cherry mounting plate + PCB actually works. Blue is real Cherry. Brown is fake (appropriately).
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
Yummy.
Post by: SpAmRaY on Mon, 25 August 2014, 08:06:46
I really should be asleep right now, but I promised to post these, so here we go...
As you can see the hybrid ALPS-Cherry mounting plate + PCB actually works. Blue is real Cherry. Brown is fake (appropriately).
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
Matias, what is the gray stem ALPS (Matis switch)? Is it just to differentiate between clicky and quiet?
Post by: Heliosphere on Sun, 31 August 2014, 03:26:50
Post by: Oobly on Mon, 01 September 2014, 02:46:13
The thin plate we did is totally stable for Cherry, and stable for ALPS horizontally but not vertically. It works, but you need to take more care centering the ALPS switches vertically. That was with the thin plate only, and no PCB.Hmm, I’m not sure that seems quite right: on a typical plate (~1.5mm) doesn’t the tip of the “fin” clip in below the plate, holding the switch in place? Seems to me like the extent to which the fin snaps in or not depends mostly on how wide the switch hole is, rather than how thick the plate is per se. With a thicker plate, the tip of the fin is prevented from opening back up below the plate, so the switch is being held in by friction from the side, rather than from below from the fin tip as these were originally designed to work.
See attached drawing -- thin plate shown to the left of the switch...
You can see, the fin does not make contact with the thin plate on the left, so it doesn't force it into position.
To the right of the switch, you can see that thickening the plate should fix the problem...
I’ve found that very thick Alps plates, especially when the switch holes are tight, tend to break the little fins off much more easily than plates that are about 1.5mm thick (16 gauge steel?) with the proper width holes for the switches to nicely clip into.
In other words, the “thin” plate in your picture might be slightly too thin, but the “thick” plate looks quite a bit too thick to me.
I see your point...
Reducing the plate thickness to 1.5mm would probably work.
Another option would be to make the hole a little wider in the fin area.
In any case, we're getting the 2.1mm plate samples tomorrow, and will post the results...
I believe the Alps SKCL/SKCM datasheet specifies a 1.2mm plate thickness, with 4.5mm between the top of the PCB and top of the plate. Cherry MX specifies 1.5mm plate and 5mm between the top of the PCB and top of the plate.
I think a plate thicker than 1.2mm won't allow the Alps tabs to pop out under the plate, whereas a plate thinner than 1.5mm won't lock a Cherry MX switch into place firmly. So it may be best to use a different plate for each type of switch, unless you use a 1.5mm plate and make the Alps switch holes just a touch wider to accomodate the tabs (they should be slightly compressed to locate the switch firmly, but not too much so that they break easily). Probably best to find the "sweet spot" by experiment by making a test plate of 1.5mm thickness and holes with different widths and see which width allows the switch to locate firmly without putting undue pressure on the tabs.
In terms of height, both switch types can live on the same plate / PCB if you allow the Alps switches to be 0.5mm off the surface of the PCB (the contact legs are long enough not to cause an issue).
Post by: Matias on Mon, 01 September 2014, 05:57:52
I fly back to Canada tomorrow, so will probably start the group buy soon after. I think we've moved things far enough along that the basic concepts are nailed down. Now we just need to execute.
Cherry and ALPS on the same board is certainly do-able -- though still some details to work out.
Post by: dustinhxc on Mon, 01 September 2014, 08:54:53
Post by: Matias on Mon, 01 September 2014, 09:06:32
Man I really want a 60% ALPS but why the huge spacebar.. Could have done the arrows like other 60% boards have done..
Good news, you got your wish, courtesy of KBParadise -- ETA: September 26th - October 17th, 2014.... :-)
http://geekhack.org/?topic=61966.0
http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=987
http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=988
http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/incoming.php
Post by: divito on Mon, 01 September 2014, 09:09:59
Post by: dustinhxc on Mon, 01 September 2014, 09:33:17
Man I really want a 60% ALPS but why the huge spacebar.. Could have done the arrows like other 60% boards have done..
Good news, you got your wish, courtesy of KBParadise -- ETA: September 26th - October 17th, 2014.... :-)
http://geekhack.org/?topic=61966.0
http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=987
http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=988
http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/incoming.php
:eek:
WHOA! This is great.. Thank You! So any ALPS keysets work on your switches? Thanks!
Post by: eli42291 on Thu, 04 September 2014, 07:33:13
Man I really want a 60% ALPS but why the huge spacebar.. Could have done the arrows like other 60% boards have done..
Good news, you got your wish, courtesy of KBParadise -- ETA: September 26th - October 17th, 2014.... :-)
http://geekhack.org/?topic=61966.0
http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=987
http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=988
http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/incoming.php
So I'm just looking into buying my first mechanical keyboard. I'd like to get one pretty soon. This 60% keyboard looks great, but I'm not sure if you guys will be selling the pre-assembled version anytime soon. Will you be? Thanks!
Post by: Hypersphere on Sun, 07 September 2014, 10:57:41
I haven't read through the entire thread, but I am hoping for the possibility of a HHKB layout but with a choice of either clicky or silent Matias switches.
Edit:
Keycaps: Mac / ANSI
Nav Cluster: Option B (although would prefer HHKB layout with no dedicated arrow keys); would want to be able to remap the Delete key to Fn, and remap Fn to Control.
Switches: would like to try both clicky and quiet.
Assembly: first choice assembled, but might like to try the DIY kit.
My wish would be essentially a HHKB with Matias clicky or slient switches, but if this is not to be, I might try the Matias layout, as long as I could remap to a HHKB/Mac layout (swap Backspace and Backslash; reassign CapsLock as Control; put Fn to the right of Right Shift; bottom row = Control - Opt - Command - Space - Command - Opt - Control.
Post by: sw on Sun, 07 September 2014, 11:52:06
Preferences:
Keycaps: Mac / ANSI
Nav Cluster: Option A
switches: Clicky Matias (ALPS-like) switches
Assembly: Pre-assembled
Post by: dante on Fri, 12 September 2014, 16:54:48
I fly back to Canada tomorrow, so will probably start the group buy soon after. I think we've moved things far enough along that the basic concepts are nailed down. Now we just need to execute.
Soon? :)
Post by: Tiramisuu on Fri, 12 September 2014, 19:58:10
Post by: Matt3o on Sat, 13 September 2014, 10:16:16
Man I really want a 60% ALPS but why the huge spacebar.. Could have done the arrows like other 60% boards have done..
Good news, you got your wish, courtesy of KBParadise -- ETA: September 26th - October 17th, 2014.... :-)
http://geekhack.org/?topic=61966.0
http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=987
http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=988
http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/incoming.php
:eek:
WHOA! This is great.. Thank You! So any ALPS keysets work on your switches? Thanks!
the kbparadise has the worst FN layer ever conceived by human being... (PS: I have the MX version)
Post by: Tiramisuu on Sat, 13 September 2014, 13:11:50
Or worse than a ten keyless?
I've been trying to pick a 60% board all week and while they all have
compromises with the fn layers, this one is a good price, good basic key layout and excellent switches for my use cases (multiple office environments with managed environments that don't allow software installation, home, portable, alternate key layouts (colemak), document writing, code and data readimg).
Personally I'd like fully programmable, quiet, Bluetooth, rugged case with plate and a hhkb type 60% layout, Pbt keys caps without being $600 but the reality is that I can't get all the hardware a d software features without leaving boxes unchecked that I can currently find on the market.
This keyboard at this price with the Matias switches seems like a fairly decent place to buy in and solder in a teensy and Bluetooth module. I'm all ears for the list of better 60% solutions if you have suggestions.
Post by: dante on Sat, 13 September 2014, 13:44:31
I'm all ears for the list of better 60% solutions if you have suggestions.
Get rid of predetermined layouts - or - those programmable on board. Why not come up with a GUI utility that lets you code/share your own layout and upload it to your board?
Post by: Matias on Sat, 13 September 2014, 14:58:19
Took a few days off after getting back from China, and am just now getting back into the swing of things...
I don't have a firm date on when the 60% will be available, but I have more time now and will be posting updates as things progress.
I spent a few hours today going over the switch drawings, to see how best to deal with the ALPS tabs inserted into a 1.5mm-thick mounting plate.
The Cherry spec calls for a 1.5mm plate, whereas the ALPS spec dictates a 1.0-1.2mm plate. I want to try both again before making the final call.
On the current samples, the ALPS mounting holes are 15.5x12.8mm (the ALPS spec). On the 1mm plate, this size was a little big along the 12.8mm axis. On the 1.5mm and 2mm plates, the tabs bent inward.
For the 1.5mm plate, I'm going to try ALPS mounting holes in the range of 16.5-16.8mm by 12.2-12.5mm.
For the 1.0mm plate, ALPS mounting holes of 15.5mm by 12.2-12.5mm should tighten things up.
Post by: jacobolus on Sat, 13 September 2014, 15:12:44
The Cherry spec calls for a 1.5mm plate, whereas the ALPS spec dictates a 1.0-1.2mm plate. I want to try both again before making the final call.Plenty of old Alps keyboards have 1.5mm thick plates. I think the size of the hole needs to be carefully matched to the thickness of the plate to make sure the switches clip in properly though, as you say.
Post by: Matias on Sat, 13 September 2014, 16:08:05
The Cherry spec calls for a 1.5mm plate, whereas the ALPS spec dictates a 1.0-1.2mm plate. I want to try both again before making the final call.
Plenty of old Alps keyboards have 1.5mm thick plates. I think the size of the hole needs to be carefully matched to the thickness of the plate to make sure the switches clip in properly though, as you say.
I also suspect that plenty of Cherry boards have 1mm thick plates -- though I haven't checked yet.
In either case, I'm sure I can get it to work...
Post by: Tiramisuu on Sun, 14 September 2014, 00:49:10
Post by: Matt3o on Sun, 14 September 2014, 01:11:18
Worse than the poker?
have a look at home/end/pgup/pgdown. They are simply unreachable. It's nice you can put the FN key basically anywhere, but the fn layer is designed by a drunken octopus.
PS: sorry for the digression, back in topic
Post by: Canut on Tue, 16 September 2014, 06:04:44
Keycaps:
Mac
Layout:
ANSI
Nav Cluster:
Option C: Arrow Cluster WITHOUT Delete next to Shift key
* Can we have [Modifier+Backspace] as forward delete?
Switches:
QUIET!!
(Clicky switches rattle and resonate freakishly loud in my Tactile Mini, and the clicky switches are painfully heavy on my fingers after my very long work days)
Pre-Assembled
(Oh, to have the free time to build custom keyboard projects... :D)
Post by: Matias on Tue, 16 September 2014, 23:15:41
Nav Cluster:
Option C: Arrow Cluster WITHOUT Delete next to Shift key
* Can we have [Modifier+Backspace] as forward delete?
Yes, that's already in the spec.
Post by: djpyle on Thu, 18 September 2014, 00:50:21
I'd love one of these.
Mac
ANSI
Layout C
Clicky keys
Fully assembled
Can't wait to see how these turn out.
Post by: prox on Thu, 18 September 2014, 01:05:18
PC
ANSI
Layout C
Quiet Alps
Assembled
Post by: djpyle on Thu, 18 September 2014, 21:47:25
Also, will separate keysets be available? I would love to have a mini-groupbuy of white PBT caps and have them dye-subbed with italic Apple legendsShow Image(http://i.imgur.com/FXXfURa.jpg)
Oh, man. That would be great!
Post by: Matias on Thu, 18 September 2014, 22:47:51
Also, will separate keysets be available? I would love to have a mini-groupbuy of white PBT caps and have them dye-subbed with italic Apple legendsShow Image(http://i.imgur.com/FXXfURa.jpg)
Oh, man. That would be great!
FYI, old school Apple keyboards are easy to find on eBay and they have PBT caps, which will fit this new keyboard.
Post by: Hak Foo on Thu, 18 September 2014, 23:35:40
None, to my knowledge have a 2x numpad +, or a full suite of 1.25x modifiers. And, of course, nobody but you are doing .75x height keys. It's okay if you're doing a 40% like the photo, but trying to cover a anything more elaborate, whether your 60%, or a conventional 101 or 104, is a problem.
Post by: jacobolus on Fri, 19 September 2014, 00:28:37
None, to my knowledge have a 2x numpad +, or a full suite of 1.25x modifiers. And, of course, nobody but you are doing .75x height keys. It's okay if you're doing a 40% like the photo, but trying to cover a anything more elaborate, whether your 60%, or a conventional 101 or 104, is a problem.What 101 or 104 key keyboard are you trying to cover? Why not just use the AEK or AEK II directly (possibly with swapped-out switches, possibly with a Teensy protocol converter inside) if you want a “conventional” layout? The keycaps won’t have windows logos on them, but they should work just fine.
The Apple numpad layout is IMO better than the IBM PS/2 numpad layout, with an easier to reach minus and an equals sign.
As for the 60% board, the bottom row keycaps on the new Matias board are going to all be PBT anyway, so if the goal is just to have full PBT coverage, then the top 4 rows is all you need anyway. Just pick option C with the 2.75x1 right shift.
Post by: Hak Foo on Fri, 19 September 2014, 01:03:24
Post by: Matias on Fri, 19 September 2014, 01:19:10
I'm considering adding one more option... Backlighting. What does everyone think? Good? Bad? Don't bother?
Post by: jacobolus on Fri, 19 September 2014, 01:35:03
Well, in my case, the target is an AT101W that I've already had a switch-swap done on. Starting all over with a Apple board would be a substantial cost in labour, even assuming I desolder and reuse switches.An AT101W is a tough one, since all the nice PBT keycaps Alps made were done before the advent of windows keys. You can get pretty close with an SGI Granite or other similar keyboard, but the bottom row isn’t going to match.
I guess you can wait for Matias to have a full set of PBT keycaps to buy. I think he was estimating the end of the year or something for that.
Post by: Heliosphere on Fri, 19 September 2014, 01:35:54
Thanks for all the feedback. I'll be preparing the GB post soon.
I'm considering adding one more option... Backlighting. What does everyone think? Good? Bad? Don't bother?
If it can be done effectively and without too much extra cost, I'm sure it will be very popular. Backlit Matias keyboards aren't exactly common. :)
Post by: jacobolus on Fri, 19 September 2014, 01:39:44
I'm considering adding one more option... Backlighting. What does everyone think? Good? Bad? Don't bother?It’s a great gimmick that will sell keyboards to certain crowds (mainly teenagers); most people around here don’t care for it, but some like it.
Post by: Norwegian on Fri, 19 September 2014, 04:59:26
Thanks for all the feedback. I'll be preparing the GB post soon.
I'm considering adding one more option... Backlighting. What does everyone think? Good? Bad? Don't bother?
I guess some people are into that, but personally I've found that I've never really used the backlighting I have on my Ducky keyboard.
Post by: CPTBadAss on Fri, 19 September 2014, 05:55:08
Post by: geniekid on Fri, 19 September 2014, 08:23:49
Post by: dante on Fri, 19 September 2014, 08:39:07
Thanks for all the feedback. I'll be preparing the GB post soon.
I'm considering adding one more option... Backlighting. What does everyone think? Good? Bad? Don't bother?
Don't bother.
I would pay extra if there was an option for blank or side-print keycaps.
Post by: Hypersphere on Fri, 19 September 2014, 08:58:43
Post by: divito on Fri, 19 September 2014, 10:06:27
Post by: hjkl_over_wasd on Fri, 19 September 2014, 10:35:58
Please focus all the attention to the relevant details.
Post by: BearManJim on Fri, 19 September 2014, 14:25:45
I'm considering adding one more option... Backlighting. What does everyone think? Good? Bad? Don't bother?
Yes please!!! Blue LEDs would go nicely on a white board with PBT keycaps :p
Like on Hyde's Poker II;
Post by: Luminair on Sat, 20 September 2014, 02:54:22
Here's some input from an interested non-user of 60% keyboards. My first impressions:
1) The navigation cluster = superb
2) PBT by default = superb
3) Matte case instead of glossy = superb
4) Big, luscious space bar = superb
This is my favorite [theoretical] tiny keyboard yet.
Criticisms:
1) I think muscle memory is critical for use of the F-keys. Strike 1 against all tiny keyboards like this. If there is no space between the banks of 4, the user is forced to look, not feel. I can't say if there is a fix or not. Maybe I don't mind messing up the number row a bit by adding some spaces between them. (They might even be improved that way.) Or maybe different textures on the alternating banks. Color is not enough, but maybe rough vs smooth is the secret solution.
2) I think it is possible that Delete would be best placed somewhere above the enter key, because that is the level of a Delete key on a standard keyboard. Placing it by shift IS a good idea for the touch typist's pinky. But I am very curious to know the result of user tests with Delete in this position, compared to at the right of a smaller "\", compared to at the right of a smaller Backspace. To the right of the backspace might confuse the muscle memory, and I see that fitting it right of "\" is a problem to solve.
3) Any value the Windows key has on a keyboard like this is going to be less than the Fn key, right? Wouldn't it make sense then to fit a second Fn key on the right-hand side of the keyboard, even at the expense of further hurting (or annihilating) the remaining Windows key? I wouldn't miss the Windows key even if it just meant getting a bigger Ctrl key in its place.
Food for thought: Matias' 60% keyboard layout, but with a second Fn replacing the Delete key. Do you feast? If so, then where to put the delete function would be an open question.
My final first impressions for the record:
1) PrtScn, ScrLk, and Pause might be justified sitting on the lower arrow keys by their buddies PgUp PgDn.
2) Keys with 3 functions look like a mess to me, and I honestly start to wonder how to activate which function. Having no multi-color legends like on a laptop makes it worse. And having 4+ characters makes it even worse still. ") F10 0" is bad enough, but "{ print screen ]"? I almost wonder if the best solution here is taking advantage of the smaller Matias ALPS switches/caps and putting another function bar on top. 60% purists would protest, but they've also never had the chance to take advantage of compact Matias ALPS... until now. I'm not biased for any team, I just know that keyboards aren't done evolving yet. There might be a better way than HHKB.
Post by: Matias on Sun, 21 September 2014, 18:11:34
Thanks for the additional feedback...
The consensus seems to be pretty clearly against backlighting, so we'll leave it off. Quite frankly, we're already doing a lot with the dual-mount support and unique layout.
2) I think it is possible that Delete would be best placed somewhere above the enter key, because that is the level of a Delete key on a standard keyboard. Placing it by shift IS a good idea for the touch typist's pinky. But I am very curious to know the result of user tests with Delete in this position, compared to at the right of a smaller "\", compared to at the right of a smaller Backspace. To the right of the backspace might confuse the muscle memory, and I see that fitting it right of "\" is a problem to solve.
We haven't user tested the Delete key position (at least not in this context). However, replacing "\" loses you that key, and really messes with ISO layouts. For 60% layouts, intuitive options for delete key positions are limited.
3) Any value the Windows key has on a keyboard like this is going to be less than the Fn key, right? Wouldn't it make sense then to fit a second Fn key on the right-hand side of the keyboard, even at the expense of further hurting (or annihilating) the remaining Windows key? I wouldn't miss the Windows key even if it just meant getting a bigger Ctrl key in its place.
Nav cluster options B and C already have a 2nd Fn key on the right.
Okay, I think we've beaten this dead horse enough. Will get the GB up soon. Thanks again to everyone who fedback...
Post by: Norwegian on Sun, 21 September 2014, 19:26:54
Post by: dante on Tue, 23 September 2014, 12:39:52
Will get the GB up soon.
How soon until you list the GB? If you can give a guess-timate that would be appreciated.
Just asking because KBP V60MTS is inbound and I want to make sure I can get everyone paid.
Post by: Matias on Tue, 23 September 2014, 18:09:53
Will get the GB up soon.
How soon until you list the GB? If you can give a guess-timate that would be appreciated.
Just asking because KBP V60MTS is inbound and I want to make sure I can get everyone paid.
Should be up in 2 weeks.
I have to get quotes for everything and then put up the order pages. The GB will probably be open for a month.
Post by: SacKRoll on Thu, 25 September 2014, 15:50:42
PC
ANSI
PBT
Nav Cluster:
Full Nav Cluster (option A)
Switches:
Quiet ALPS
Pre-Assembled or Kit:
Fully Assembled Keyboard
Hi, Edgar Matias.
Will that 60% keyboard be included on the regular Matias line-up products, like the Quiet Pro?
Cheers.
Post by: trizkut on Thu, 25 September 2014, 16:14:19
Hi, Edgar Matias.
Will that 60% keyboard be included on the regular Matias line-up products, like the Quiet Pro?
Cheers.
Once the GB is done, we won't offer these options again -- though we will offer keycaps, and we may do an aluminum case GB in the future -- but for PCBs, plates, stock cases, the GB will be your only chance to buy them. As I said, it's a unique opportunity.
Post by: SacKRoll on Thu, 25 September 2014, 16:27:52
Post by: trizkut on Thu, 25 September 2014, 16:36:55
Thank you, trizkut. I haven't seen that post... sorry, guys!
It's all good. Matias has a bunch of replies in this thread so the information is a little scattered :D
Post by: Matias on Thu, 25 September 2014, 19:49:43
Hi, Edgar Matias.
Will that 60% keyboard be included on the regular Matias line-up products, like the Quiet Pro?
Cheers.
Once the GB is done, we won't offer these options again -- though we will offer keycaps, and we may do an aluminum case GB in the future -- but for PCBs, plates, stock cases, the GB will be your only chance to buy them. As I said, it's a unique opportunity.
Thanks for jumping in. Yes, the info is all over the place in this thread. I will tie it all together clearly when the GB is posted.
Just to clarify further... I don't know if it will continue as an ongoing product in the lineup. I hope it does, but it all depends on how popular the GB is.
In either case, the GB will be the only opportunity to buy the component parts listed, and the only guaranteed way to get the keyboard. It may never be produced again after this GB.
Post by: Matias on Tue, 30 September 2014, 14:42:47
Okay, I now have ALPS and Cherry stabiilizers working on the same mounting plate. See attached photos.
We're in the home stretch...
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
[attachimg=5]
[attachimg=6]
[attachimg=7]
[attachimg=8]
[attachimg=9]
Post by: SpAmRaY on Tue, 30 September 2014, 14:45:07
Post by: CPTBadAss on Tue, 30 September 2014, 14:45:16
Post by: SpAmRaY on Tue, 30 September 2014, 14:46:02
Post by: Matias on Tue, 30 September 2014, 14:48:23
^^ Is it just me or can the cherry switches be opened with the way this plate is cut out?? :eek:
Yes, I think so, though I didn't try.
Post by: jacobolus on Tue, 30 September 2014, 18:01:56
Okay, I now have ALPS and Cherry stabiilizers working on the same mounting plate. See attached photos.Wow, that’s awesome! We really need to get all the hobbyist board designs using these stabilizers, assuming they work just as well as the standard ones.
Post by: hjkl_over_wasd on Tue, 30 September 2014, 21:40:12
Post by: Matias on Tue, 30 September 2014, 22:07:57
Are those the PBT caps that will be used?
The keycaps shown in the photo are all ABS caps.
The Cherry keycaps are from a Das Keyboard made by Costar in Taiwan, and a Tesoro made by Ione in China.
Post by: Synjin on Tue, 30 September 2014, 22:11:47
Post by: belac on Tue, 30 September 2014, 22:22:43
When will the GB officially start and how long will it run?
Should be up in 2 weeks.
I have to get quotes for everything and then put up the order pages. The GB will probably be open for a month.
Post by: SacKRoll on Mon, 06 October 2014, 21:42:59
Post by: Nick91 on Mon, 13 October 2014, 16:23:52
ISO (Nordic? :))
Full Nav Cluster (option A)
Quiet ALPS
Fully Assembled Keyboard
Post by: dante on Mon, 13 October 2014, 18:22:57
If linear switches won't be ready in time would it be possible to add an option to buy a single production linear switch just to try out?
Post by: SacKRoll on Tue, 14 October 2014, 17:18:47
I think we'll have good news at this week...
...I think I was wrong. :'(
Post by: Matias on Tue, 14 October 2014, 17:49:07
Matias, I noticed in the Wraith Interest Check that Linear Alps are an option. Are these going to be available on the 60% as well? Can you talk about them - for instance, will they be dampened linears (is that even an option, possibly creating two linear switch options?)
If linear switches won't be ready in time would it be possible to add an option to buy a single production linear switch just to try out?
Yes, I can add it -- in fact, already have (http://matias.ca/60). I don't know if we'll get enough people to do an assembled version, but the solder-your-own option is always there, or I can hook you up with someone who can assemble a custom one for a fee.
We expect to have the linear switches shipping by around December/January. They are dampened, with the click leaf flattened to eliminate the tactile bump. We did 5 different designs, four of which were spring-only and the fifth had the leaf. The fifth one was judged as being the best.
Post by: Matias on Tue, 14 October 2014, 17:55:54
I think we'll have good news at this week...
...I think I was wrong. :'(
Sorry for the delay. I've got all the pricing together, but still need to revise the write-up and setup the order pages.
Will get it up ASAP...
Post by: blackbox on Tue, 14 October 2014, 18:11:33
I think we'll have good news at this week...
...I think I was wrong. :'(
Sorry for the delay. I've got all the pricing together, but still need to revise the write-up and setup the order pages.
Will get it up ASAP...
Awesome!
Post by: platypus on Wed, 15 October 2014, 10:58:47
Post by: dante on Wed, 15 October 2014, 11:45:31
Is there any chance we'd be able to buy singles of each of the 3 switches to try and compare?
Matias might be able to tell you if a store in the Ontario area has any Quiet/Clicky boards to try out. But that won't include the linear.
Post by: SacKRoll on Wed, 15 October 2014, 15:06:53
...I don't know if we'll get enough people to do an assembled version...
:'(
Post by: vivalarevolución on Wed, 15 October 2014, 17:22:57
...I don't know if we'll get enough people to do an assembled version...
:'(
I'll buy however many it takes for the assembled version. Money is no object.
jk.
Post by: Matias on Wed, 15 October 2014, 19:25:22
I'll buy however many it takes for the assembled version. Money is no object.
Somebody get this man a chair... :-)
Post by: AKmalamute on Wed, 15 October 2014, 20:00:52
Somebody get this man a chair... :-)
An assembled one, or just a kit with legs and a plate to sit on and an arch to hold the back's 'legs' ...?
Because an assembled chair could get outside my budget.
Post by: jacobolus on Wed, 15 October 2014, 20:11:59
I was assuming he would make a chair out of fully-assembled keyboards and duct tape.Somebody get this man a chair... :-)
An assembled one, or just a kit with legs and a plate to sit on and an arch to hold the back's 'legs' ...?
Because an assembled chair could get outside my budget.
Post by: vivalarevolución on Wed, 15 October 2014, 20:59:29
[attach=1]
Post by: dante on Fri, 17 October 2014, 12:50:00
I think we'll have good news at this week...
...I think I was wrong. :'(
Sorry for the delay. I've got all the pricing together, but still need to revise the write-up and setup the order pages.
Will get it up ASAP...
Have you considered putting this on MassDrop?
Post by: Matias on Fri, 17 October 2014, 12:59:15
Sorry for the delay. I've got all the pricing together, but still need to revise the write-up and setup the order pages.
Will get it up ASAP...
Have you considered putting this on MassDrop?
No, I think it's a bit too complicated for MassDrop at this stage -- with all the options for buying component parts.
I'm working on this today BTW. Should have the posting up soon.
Post by: geniekid on Fri, 17 October 2014, 13:01:15
Post by: agbockus on Sun, 19 October 2014, 22:22:36
Post by: JaccoW on Mon, 20 October 2014, 08:11:12
Damnit. Now I have to decide between this and the smart 68 (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=61714.0). I don't know why, but this is extremely enticing!(http://community.us.playstation.com/t5/image/serverpage/image-id/255955i456481721C0FE1CB?v=mpbl-1)
Post by: agbockus on Mon, 20 October 2014, 08:30:13
Damnit. Now I have to decide between this and the smart 68. I don't know why, but this is extremely enticing!Show Image(http://community.us.playstation.com/t5/image/serverpage/image-id/255955i456481721C0FE1CB?v=mpbl-1)
Oh I wish. Actually, I really hope I can get both. I'm saving up for a 2 week study abroad trip though. On top of two roughly $200-$250 keyboards...my wallet is weeping, but it feels so good.
Post by: pheso on Tue, 21 October 2014, 17:24:45
But what I'd love to see is a matias take on the m0116 / m0118. (I say both because the m0118 is easier to use as pipe is better placed and the arrow keys make more sense, however the m0116 did ctrl/caps the right way)
I must admit the popularity of tkl style baffles me when the m0116/m0118 offers the same sized footprint, with the added bonus of a numpad. The nav keys are still there, and home/end/page is on a toggle layer via numlock. That way if you can toggle the numpad on to enter long credit card numbers into webshops, and leave it off for editing text/reading logs/fixing your bodged unix commands when you need ot use home end.
Maybe I should just buy a m0118 and work on converting it. hmm.
edit: my bad, it's +1u width over tkl. Still, I'd swap a dedicated numpad for +1u.
Post by: jacobolus on Tue, 21 October 2014, 22:00:55
Maybe I should just buy a m0118 and work on converting it. hmm.It’s really easy, if you use hasu’s tmk_keyboard. There’s already an ADB protocol converter implemented there, so all you have to do is put the layout in. Note that the PCB/matrix is not n-key rollover (in practice this is usually not a problem though).
Post by: Matias on Tue, 21 October 2014, 23:11:22
This looks great and I am pretty tempted...
But what I'd love to see is a matias take on the m0116 / m0118. (I say both because the m0118 is easier to use as pipe is better placed and the arrow keys make more sense, however the m0116 did ctrl/caps the right way)
I must admit the popularity of tkl style baffles me when the m0116/m0118 offers the same sized footprint, with the added bonus of a numpad. The nav keys are still there, and home/end/page is on a toggle layer via numlock. That way if you can toggle the numpad on to enter long credit card numbers into webshops, and leave it off for editing text/reading logs/fixing your bodged unix commands when you need ot use home end.
This is off topic, but I agree with most of what you're saying.
If I were to do a design based on the m0116 / m0118, I'd start with the 60% layout of this IC and then add a number pad and function keys to it. Modern Macs have function keys, so I think it's important to include them on a keyboard of this size.
See below.
If anybody is interested in these, we should start another topic thread...
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
Post by: pheso on Wed, 22 October 2014, 08:30:20
I would take either of the 2 mac layouts for sure. If you do decide to make that thread then count me as signed up.
One thing I have been wondering and haven't seen anyone ask; how do you fit 4 switches into such a small space for the home/end/page keys? can't be regular full size switches surely?
Post by: geniekid on Wed, 22 October 2014, 08:54:32
Post by: dante on Wed, 22 October 2014, 09:11:16
Post by: CPTBadAss on Wed, 22 October 2014, 09:13:24
...create 1x1 switch modules that you can snap together to make your own layouts. So you can buy a custom sized keyboard case/etc and then slide these 1x1's into whatever layout you can dream of.
Didn't they already make that? I think they're called Cherry MX and Alps switches. If you take a look at say oobly or obra or vvp's boards, it seems like they have no problem coming up with super customized layouts.
But we're getting a bit off topic.
Post by: dante on Wed, 22 October 2014, 09:22:38
...create 1x1 switch modules that you can snap together to make your own layouts. So you can buy a custom sized keyboard case/etc and then slide these 1x1's into whatever layout you can dream of.
Didn't they already make that? I think they're called Cherry MX and Alps switches. If you take a look at say oobly or obra or vvp's boards, it seems like they have no problem coming up with super customized layouts.
But we're getting a bit off topic.
You misunderstood me.
Try to think of it like this - I'll simplify for you:
(http://www.robotroom.com/Solderless-Breadboards/3M-solderless-breadboard-with-three-binding-posts-and-840-tie-points.jpg)
Now imagine being able to plug switches directly into that and being able to program what each switches function would be. You could then have infinite layouts without having to fabricate custom PCB's.
Post by: CPTBadAss on Wed, 22 October 2014, 09:23:42
You misunderstood me.
No, I totally understood you ;). Just saying that you can prototype all you want with cardboard then handwire a layout you like. Your wish for a custom layout that suits you isn't too far off if you want to put in the work.
Post by: pasph on Wed, 22 October 2014, 10:21:51
This looks great and I am pretty tempted...
But what I'd love to see is a matias take on the m0116 / m0118. (I say both because the m0118 is easier to use as pipe is better placed and the arrow keys make more sense, however the m0116 did ctrl/caps the right way)
I must admit the popularity of tkl style baffles me when the m0116/m0118 offers the same sized footprint, with the added bonus of a numpad. The nav keys are still there, and home/end/page is on a toggle layer via numlock. That way if you can toggle the numpad on to enter long credit card numbers into webshops, and leave it off for editing text/reading logs/fixing your bodged unix commands when you need ot use home end.
This is off topic, but I agree with most of what you're saying.
If I were to do a design based on the m0116 / m0118, I'd start with the 60% layout of this IC and then add a number pad and function keys to it. Modern Macs have function keys, so I think it's important to include them on a keyboard of this size.
See below.
If anybody is interested in these, we should start another topic thread...
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
Do it!
Post by: vivalarevolución on Wed, 22 October 2014, 14:04:13
This looks great and I am pretty tempted...
But what I'd love to see is a matias take on the m0116 / m0118. (I say both because the m0118 is easier to use as pipe is better placed and the arrow keys make more sense, however the m0116 did ctrl/caps the right way)
I must admit the popularity of tkl style baffles me when the m0116/m0118 offers the same sized footprint, with the added bonus of a numpad. The nav keys are still there, and home/end/page is on a toggle layer via numlock. That way if you can toggle the numpad on to enter long credit card numbers into webshops, and leave it off for editing text/reading logs/fixing your bodged unix commands when you need ot use home end.
This is off topic, but I agree with most of what you're saying.
If I were to do a design based on the m0116 / m0118, I'd start with the 60% layout of this IC and then add a number pad and function keys to it. Modern Macs have function keys, so I think it's important to include them on a keyboard of this size.
See below.
If anybody is interested in these, we should start another topic thread...
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
Looks like a more functional version of the Plum 96 or CM Quickfire TK. I like it.
Post by: Matias on Wed, 22 October 2014, 16:00:57
I would take either of the 2 mac layouts for sure. If you do decide to make that thread then count me as signed up.
Do it!
Looks like a more functional version of the Plum 96 or CM Quickfire TK. I like it.
Okay, I'll post an interest check and reference those models... :-)
Post by: geniekid on Wed, 22 October 2014, 16:11:21
Post by: CPTBadAss on Wed, 22 October 2014, 16:12:30
Post by: SacKRoll on Wed, 22 October 2014, 16:16:29
Post by: dante on Wed, 22 October 2014, 16:21:55
Post by: Matias on Wed, 22 October 2014, 16:35:57
I was not planning to post the new IC until after the GB for this one is up.
Post by: mtourne on Sat, 25 October 2014, 16:09:57
Keycaps:
Mac
ANSI
Nav Cluster:
Full Nav Cluster (option A)
Switches:
Quiet ALPS
Pre-Assembled or Kit:
No preference, if the kit makes it a lot cheaper I'd go with kit.
Post by: Luminair on Sun, 26 October 2014, 00:50:19
This looks great and I am pretty tempted...
But what I'd love to see is a matias take on the m0116 / m0118. (I say both because the m0118 is easier to use as pipe is better placed and the arrow keys make more sense, however the m0116 did ctrl/caps the right way)
I must admit the popularity of tkl style baffles me when the m0116/m0118 offers the same sized footprint, with the added bonus of a numpad. The nav keys are still there, and home/end/page is on a toggle layer via numlock. That way if you can toggle the numpad on to enter long credit card numbers into webshops, and leave it off for editing text/reading logs/fixing your bodged unix commands when you need ot use home end.
This is off topic, but I agree with most of what you're saying.
If I were to do a design based on the m0116 / m0118, I'd start with the 60% layout of this IC and then add a number pad and function keys to it. Modern Macs have function keys, so I think it's important to include them on a keyboard of this size.
See below.
If anybody is interested in these, we should start another topic thread...
(Attachment Link)
This is an intriguing design! Much of the space saved, with no need for an extra numpad. It even supports "(" and ")" keys above the numpad for complicated equations. Ingenious!
Post by: Matias on Mon, 27 October 2014, 07:05:35
This looks great and I am pretty tempted...
But what I'd love to see is a matias take on the m0116 / m0118. (I say both because the m0118 is easier to use as pipe is better placed and the arrow keys make more sense, however the m0116 did ctrl/caps the right way)
I must admit the popularity of tkl style baffles me when the m0116/m0118 offers the same sized footprint, with the added bonus of a numpad. The nav keys are still there, and home/end/page is on a toggle layer via numlock. That way if you can toggle the numpad on to enter long credit card numbers into webshops, and leave it off for editing text/reading logs/fixing your bodged unix commands when you need ot use home end.
This is off topic, but I agree with most of what you're saying.
If I were to do a design based on the m0116 / m0118, I'd start with the 60% layout of this IC and then add a number pad and function keys to it. Modern Macs have function keys, so I think it's important to include them on a keyboard of this size.
See below.
If anybody is interested in these, we should start another topic thread...
(Attachment Link)
This is an intriguing design! Much of the space saved, with no need for an extra numpad. It even supports "(" and ")" keys above the numpad for complicated equations. Ingenious!
Thanks, glad you like it. :-)
I'll post an interest check as soon as the GB for the 60% is done. I got side-tracked with the arrival of our keycap shipment. It's all sorted out, and I promise to have the 60% GB up soon...
Post by: tutuling on Mon, 27 October 2014, 23:27:34
Keycaps:
PC. ANSI
Nav Cluster:
Full Nav Cluster (option A)
Switches:
Quiet ALPS
Pre-Assembled.
Thanks for making this happen and looking forward to the GB.
Post by: Matias on Tue, 28 October 2014, 00:32:26
I am also interested in this unique 60% layout and being priced competitively amongst the other 60% will be more advantageous in getting more adopters for these switches. So I'm hoping you can consider this wisely for the GB.
Thanks for posting...
It's looking like the price will come in at around $150 pre-assembled. I hope that's reasonable. Given the amount of tooling that's required to build it, I don't think we can make it for much less than that.
Also, remember that the bottom row keys are all PBT, and we'll be offering PBT for the others as tooling permits.
Post by: lenardBone on Tue, 28 October 2014, 03:50:18
Post by: Matias on Wed, 29 October 2014, 08:05:42
I was just curious if blank keycaps will be one of the options for the group buy?
We'll have blanks on sale "very soon" :) so that's an easy way to get there.
As for receiving a pre-assembled keyboard with blank keycaps, I wasn't planning on offering that. A lot depends on how many we sell. I was planning to include a "special requests" entry on the order form, that you can write to request anything not on offer. We'll try to accommodate requests that are not too onerous (or if lots of people ask).
Another thing I was considering... If we get enough orders to cover all our costs + the cost of PBT keycap tooling for the remaining keys, we'd upgrade all the orders to include full PBT keycaps. Currently only the bottom row is PBT. The rest are ABS.
Post by: lenardBone on Wed, 29 October 2014, 09:10:10
As for receiving a pre-assembled keyboard with blank keycaps, I wasn't planning on offering that. A lot depends on how many we sell. I was planning to include a "special requests" entry on the order form, that you can write to request anything not on offer. We'll try to accommodate requests that are not too onerous (or if lots of people ask).
Ah, alrighty. Thanks for the info.
Post by: MahBoi on Wed, 29 October 2014, 11:13:56
PC
ANSI
Full Nav Cluster (option A)
Quiet Linear ALPS (just because I'm curious!)
DIY Parts
Post by: agbockus on Wed, 29 October 2014, 22:31:22
Mac
Ansi
Option C
Quiet Switches
Post by: vernonlloyd on Thu, 30 October 2014, 03:41:03
Mac
ANSI
Option C
Clicky Switches
Fully Assembled
Post by: joelcwe on Sun, 02 November 2014, 18:19:21
ANSI
OPTION A
Quiet Clicks
Post by: SacKRoll on Mon, 03 November 2014, 21:13:00
PC
ANSI
OPTION A
Quiet Clicks
I love this design! :thumb:
Mac
Ansi
Option C
Quiet Switches
fully assembled? say yes, pleeeeeeeeeease. ;D
Post by: CPTBadAss on Mon, 03 November 2014, 21:30:18
Post by: vivalarevolución on Tue, 04 November 2014, 05:14:17
This thread needs more DIY :(
Too many people asking for assembled, you mean?
Post by: CPTBadAss on Tue, 04 November 2014, 05:57:25
Post by: vivalarevolución on Tue, 04 November 2014, 06:28:52
Yeah...Not that I'm against having the board assembled already but I enjoy building keyboard kits. Would rather have this board as a DIY kit.
It will still be available to anyone that will do DIY if they want, right? Or has Matias said that if enough want assembled, it will all be assembled?
Post by: CPTBadAss on Tue, 04 November 2014, 06:30:10
Or has Matias said that if enough want assembled, it will all be assembled?
This is how I understand how this vote is going.
Post by: Matias on Tue, 04 November 2014, 07:49:14
PC
ANSI
OPTION A
Quiet ClicksI love this design! :thumb:
Mac
Ansi
Option C
Quiet Switches
fully assembled? say yes, pleeeeeeeeeease. ;D
Yes, those are two of the options on offer. :)
Yeah...Not that I'm against having the board assembled already but I enjoy building keyboard kits. Would rather have this board as a DIY kit.
It will still be available to anyone that will do DIY if they want, right? Or has Matias said that if enough want assembled, it will all be assembled?
Rest assured, DIY is definitely part of the offering. You'll be able to buy all the component parts, and build it all yourself.
FYI, the web page is done. I just need to finish setting up the online store with all the items available to buy, and then will post the GB notice. Not long left to wait. :)
I also want to add that this is very much an experiment for us, so we're going to make it as open and flexible as possible. We're setting aside some of the normal MOQ requirements for some of the options, and just see where it leads. This may be the only GB we end up doing, so we want to learn as much is possible from it, giving it the best possible chance of success, with as few limitations as we can manage.
Post by: dante on Wed, 05 November 2014, 08:31:20
This may be the only GB we end up doing, so we want to learn as much is possible from it,
I'm very anxious to try the new lower profile / minimalist design and give feedback!
Post by: Luminair on Thu, 06 November 2014, 08:04:08
I also want to add that this is very much an experiment for us, so we're going to make it as open and flexible as possible. We're setting aside some of the normal MOQ requirements for some of the options, and just see where it leads. This may be the only GB we end up doing, so we want to learn as much is possible from it, giving it the best possible chance of success, with as few limitations as we can manage.
This sounds to me like businessperson who cares about enthusiast customers, and knows the value that they can bring to product development. A very wise businessperson, indeed!
Post by: kitsun8 on Fri, 07 November 2014, 07:10:33
Post by: Matias on Fri, 07 November 2014, 07:37:03
The web pages are done, and we're just setting up the order page before going live. It should be up tonight.
Post by: dante on Sat, 08 November 2014, 11:13:24
Thanks for all the positive vibes... :-)
The web pages are done, and we're just setting up the order page before going live. It should be up tonight.
Well where is it? Stop being such a tease!
Post by: Matias on Sat, 08 November 2014, 17:22:52
Thanks for all the positive vibes... :-)
The web pages are done, and we're just setting up the order page before going live. It should be up tonight.
Well where is it? Stop being such a tease!
Sorry... :-)
We did everything our end, but our online store service provider didn't get it updated in time on Friday. Should be up on Monday.
Will keep you posted...
Post by: dante on Sun, 09 November 2014, 22:14:57
Post by: dante on Sun, 09 November 2014, 22:25:44
Post by: geniekid on Sun, 09 November 2014, 22:36:14
Post by: dante on Sun, 09 November 2014, 22:38:38
1. The $5 PCB option - I assume it includes a list of parts to purchase?
2. Isn't a 200 pack of switches a little overkill for a 60% board?
3. The blank keyset option is $30 - but doesn't differentiate between PC/Mac and ANSI/UK/etc. Is that an additional charge on top of the printed set?
4. Do the plastic and aluminum cases provide the same typing height? In other words is one lower profile than the other?
5. Can you provide any info on the dampened linear switch? How many grams - how smooth - maybe your comparisons between it and older Linear Alps / Cherry Linears?
I think that's all ... thanks! ;)
Post by: Matias on Mon, 10 November 2014, 00:02:34
Looks like it's up!! http://matias.ca/60/pc/
It is and it isn't... The pages are up, but the store hasn't been updated, so you can't order yet.
I was going to hold-off posting the link until everything worked, but oh well...
Matias, I urge you to contact MassDrop to get more units out there. In the last few months they have sold over a thousand Poker II MX Clear keyboards. The headache might be worth the sales of several hundred keyboards at the very least.
We probablly will, but I want to see how many orders we get from our own channels first.
Post by: Matias on Mon, 10 November 2014, 00:18:46
What color is the aluminum case?
Anodized aluminum like Apple's stuff.
Do the PC layout plate and caps support a full right shift like the Mac?
The PCB does, but the plate doesn't. We didn't get enough people asking for that option. However, it's still possible to build it.
Matias initial question(s):
1. The $5 PCB option - I assume it includes a list of parts to purchase?
Yes, we'll post a BOM list.
2. Isn't a 200 pack of switches a little overkill for a 60% board?
Yes, but it's our standard size. There are other sellers that you can buy smaller quantities from.
3. The blank keyset option is $30 - but doesn't differentiate between PC/Mac and ANSI/UK/etc. Is that an additional charge on top of the printed set?
No, the blank set includes all keycaps for all layouts.
4. Do the plastic and aluminum cases provide the same typing height? In other words is one lower profile than the other?
Yes, same height for both.
5. Can you provide any info on the dampened linear switch? How many grams - how smooth - maybe your comparisons between it and older Linear Alps / Cherry Linears?
It's approx. 50 grams. Internally, it's very similar to the quiet click switches. It has a clickleaf, but it's been flattened to remove the tactile bump.
Post by: hjkl_over_wasd on Mon, 10 November 2014, 01:42:41
Post by: Norwegian on Mon, 10 November 2014, 01:55:41
I see no "PC - ISO Layout" under the 60% Keyboard with Clicky Switches. Does this mean you won't sell this keyboard pre-assembled with ISO layout... ?
Post by: jacobolus on Mon, 10 November 2014, 02:04:14
[The linear switch is] approx. 50 grams. Internally, it's very similar to the quiet click switches. It has a clickleaf, but it's been flattened to remove the tactile bump.How does the linear switch’s spring compare to the other switches’? Is it identical, or is it longer/shorter and/or softer/stiffer?
Post by: vivalarevolución on Mon, 10 November 2014, 05:54:17
Post by: JaccoW on Mon, 10 November 2014, 07:09:21
Post by: pasph on Mon, 10 November 2014, 08:17:37
Post by: dante on Mon, 10 November 2014, 08:48:35
2. Isn't a 200 pack of switches a little overkill for a 60% board?
Yes, but it's our standard size. There are other sellers that you can buy smaller quantities from.
That's ok. Maybe I can track down someone locally who is willing to split an order of switches.
3. The blank keyset option is $30 - but doesn't differentiate between PC/Mac and ANSI/UK/etc. Is that an additional charge on top of the printed set?
No, the blank set includes all keycaps for all layouts.
Would you be able to update the page to allow blanks as an option when ordering complete boards? Otherwise it's $290 + $30 on top of it. If not I might just order everything DIY. Not complaining - you've done a tremendous job breaking this all out as it is. I just had planned on buying multiple boards and am trying to cut costs where I can so my wife doesn't smother me in my sleep.
Post by: Hypersphere on Mon, 10 November 2014, 09:37:23
I had hoped that the Mac version would include an option for a short Right Shift, so that I could reprogram the adjacent Del key as Fn.
Does the Fn key in either the Mac or PC version send a scan code? That is, can it be remapped in software? If not, then the Fn key(s) will be wasted space for me.
Can I get extra Mac keycaps if I order the PC version?
Too bad about no PBT in the initial run. The odd-size bottom row will make it difficult or impossible to get replacement keycaps.
It would have been great to have been able to get a HHKB layout with Matias switches. As it stands, I am not sure it would be worth trying to retrofit the 60% Matias to some semblance of a HHKB. I regret that I will probably need to pass on this opportunity and stick with my HHKB.
Post by: Matias on Mon, 10 November 2014, 09:47:15
Matias - You don't write anything about the dip switch settings on the GB webpage. Did all the features you confirmed in this thread make it to the finished product?
Yes, everything I confirmed will be included. Which one in particular did you have in mind? Several are mentioned on the web page...
"The Matias 60% keyboard GB has many unique features that came at the specific request of users -- including swappable Ctrl / Caps Lock keys, Fn-layer triggers for system-side macros..."
"both keyboard layouts can be set to either PC or Mac, via a DIP switch setting -- so you are free to purchase whichever model you prefer."
I see no "PC - ISO Layout" under the 60% Keyboard with Clicky Switches. Does this mean you won't sell this keyboard pre-assembled with ISO layout... ?
No ISO layout with Quiet Linear switches?
You can get those if you assemble them yourself. If you don't have the soldering skills (or inclination) to assemble it yourself, we can probably hook you up with someone who can do it for you for a fee.
[The linear switch is] approx. 50 grams. Internally, it's very similar to the quiet click switches. It has a clickleaf, but it's been flattened to remove the tactile bump.How does the linear switch’s spring compare to the other switches’? Is it identical, or is it longer/shorter and/or softer/stiffer?
It's identical to the spring inside the Quiet Click switch. You can get a close facsimile by opening a Quiet Click switch, flattening the leaf bumps with a pair of pliers, and then reassembling the switch. Here's what the Linear Leaf looks like vs. the Quiet Click Leaf...
[attachimg=1]
FYI, we did 5 different designs and this one was picked as feeling the best -- the other 4 designs were spring only (no leaf).
Would you be able to update the page to allow blanks as an option when ordering complete boards? Otherwise it's $290 + $30 on top of it. If not I might just order everything DIY. Not complaining - you've done a tremendous job breaking this all out as it is. I just had planned on buying multiple boards and am trying to cut costs where I can so my wife doesn't smother me in my sleep.
Okay, don't want to imperil your marriage :)) so just order the model you want, but do NOT buy the blank keycaps. Instead, just write this in the special request box... "Please assemble with BLANK keycaps instead."
Post by: pasph on Mon, 10 November 2014, 10:27:43
Post by: Hypersphere on Mon, 10 November 2014, 10:34:20
Post by: Norwegian on Mon, 10 November 2014, 10:48:35
Quote
You can get those if you assemble them yourself. If you don't have the soldering skills (or inclination) to assemble it yourself, we can probably hook you up with someone who can do it for you for a fee.
My interest in this keyboard will vanish 100% (and not just 60%) if I have to assemble it myself (not only do I not have a soldering station, I haven't soldered anything before), and if I cannot get an ISO version of this keyboard. I own far too many US layout keyboards as it is already, and don't need any more of those.
You say you can "probably" hook me up with someone who can do it for a fee, but I'm not onboard with "probably", because I'm not going to be ordering parts that won't be assembled. So please offer a guarantee or I'm out.
And with regards to the fee, what would be the estimated price for this?
I really do like the idea of this keyboard, and would like to have it, but not in parts.
Post by: dante on Mon, 10 November 2014, 10:50:42
Post by: CPTBadAss on Mon, 10 November 2014, 10:53:16
I really do like the idea of this keyboard, and would like to have it, but not in parts.
Depending on where you are Norwegian, there are builders who can help if you choose not to go through Matias:
UK: Margo Baggins
US: dorkvader, tjcaustin, TheChemist, LastPilot
Post by: jacobolus on Mon, 10 November 2014, 11:17:02
How does the linear switch’s spring compare to the other switches’? Is it identical, or is it longer/shorter and/or softer/stiffer?
It's identical to the spring inside the Quiet Click switch. You can get a close facsimile by opening a Quiet Click switch, flattening the leaf bumps with a pair of pliers, and then reassembling the switch. Here's what the Linear Leaf looks like vs. the Quiet Click Leaf...
(Attachment Link)
Thanks for the diagram of the leaf spring!
I was also wondering about the helical spring. Is it the same as the helical spring in the tactile/clicky versions?
Post by: Matias on Mon, 10 November 2014, 11:56:37
How does the linear switch’s spring compare to the other switches’? Is it identical, or is it longer/shorter and/or softer/stiffer?It's identical to the spring inside the Quiet Click switch. You can get a close facsimile by opening a Quiet Click switch, flattening the leaf bumps with a pair of pliers, and then reassembling the switch. Here's what the Linear Leaf looks like vs. the Quiet Click Leaf...
(Attachment Link)
Thanks for the diagram of the leaf spring!
I was also wondering about the helical spring. Is it the same as the helical spring in the tactile/clicky versions?
It's the same helical spring that's in the Quiet Click switch. The louder Click switch has a different spring.
And with regards to the fee, what would be the estimated price for this?
I really do like the idea of this keyboard, and would like to have it, but not in parts.
I see that a few other posters offered suggestions. I'm flying to China tomorrow and this will be one of the things I hope to arrange. If we can find someone there willing to hand assembly these, for special requests, it will simplify things tremendously.
In the mean time, I would hold-off ordering until this is resolved.
Is there a DIP switch setting to swap Backspace and Backslash?
Yes.
In "DIY Component Parts" "Plate + Stabilizers" what kind of stabilizers do you ship MX, ALPs or both?
Both MX and ALPS stabilizers will be included. You can see them both in the gallery photos...
http://matias.ca/60/pc/viewer/5.jpg
http://matias.ca/60/pc/viewer/6.jpg
Post by: Matias on Mon, 10 November 2014, 12:19:45
Interesting project.
I had hoped that the Mac version would include an option for a short Right Shift, so that I could reprogram the adjacent Del key as Fn.
The PCB supports it -- it's the same PCB for all models. So if you're building it yourself, you could get the PC version, and cut the little crossbars in the nav cluster, then solder the full height Mac modifiers instead.
Does the Fn key in either the Mac or PC version send a scan code? That is, can it be remapped in software? If not, then the Fn key(s) will be wasted space for me.
Fn does not send a code.
Can I get extra Mac keycaps if I order the PC version?
Yes, we'll have those available as well.
Too bad about no PBT in the initial run. The odd-size bottom row will make it difficult or impossible to get replacement keycaps.
Just to be clear, the bottom row will be PBT.
How many more end up being PBT depends on which MOQ level we achieve (650 or 1k pcs).
We'll be offering replacement keycaps.
It would have been great to have been able to get a HHKB layout with Matias switches. As it stands, I am not sure it would be worth trying to retrofit the 60% Matias to some semblance of a HHKB. I regret that I will probably need to pass on this opportunity and stick with my HHKB.
Okay, let me know what you ultimately decide, and why. We're hoping to learn as much as possible from this project.
Post by: geniekid on Mon, 10 November 2014, 14:54:27
Post by: spiceBar on Mon, 10 November 2014, 20:39:13
Unfortunately the GB options do not do me any favor.
I want this keyboard, but I need it to be in AZERTY.
I understand I'm a minority, so I have to adapt.
A solution for me is to purchase it in DIY, install Cherry MX switches on the top part, and put AZERTY keycaps on these switches.
However I still need to purchase the Matias switches for the bottom row, of which I'll only use 14 out of 200, as well as the Matias-compatible keycaps, of which I'll only use 14 out of 68.
It's a very inefficient solution.
Matias, can you sell me AZERTY keycaps? I don't care about the modifiers and navigation keys, I would just want the letters, numbers and punctuation keycaps to match the AZERTY standard.
I see on the Keyboard Company website that the Quiet Pro exists in AZERTY, and I suspect a keycaps set from this model would fit the 60%.
This way, I would simply order the 60% fully assembled and switch the keycaps.
Is it possible?
Post by: AKmalamute on Mon, 10 November 2014, 20:55:55
Post by: SacKRoll on Mon, 10 November 2014, 21:24:40
later i'll solve a doubt about that international shipping.
Post by: belac on Mon, 10 November 2014, 21:30:54
Post by: spiceBar on Mon, 10 November 2014, 22:34:49
Another way, would be if Matias could sell you just the bottom row keys, and you source the switches through 7-bit or MK or whatever.
You are right, but I would prefer to buy everything from Matias. It's not that I have a problem with the other sellers, it's just that it feels right to purchase everything from the initiator of the GB, from a moral point of view. Don't laugh, I'm serious.
I would prefer to have a Matias keyboard full of Matias switches, and even Matias keycaps, all purchased directly from his company. That would be my first real Matias keyboard (I have a Matias folding keyboard, but that doesn't count).
Post by: Matias on Mon, 10 November 2014, 23:03:10
If I end up liking these linear switches more than the linear greens that I spent so much time and money harvesting, I'm going to be pissed at you Matias.
Well, I don't know which you'll like more, but I can guarantee that the new switches feel different from greens. :-)
I want this keyboard, but I need it to be in AZERTY.
...
Matias, can you sell me AZERTY keycaps? I don't care about the modifiers and navigation keys, I would just want the letters, numbers and punctuation keycaps to match the AZERTY standard.
I see on the Keyboard Company website that the Quiet Pro exists in AZERTY, and I suspect a keycaps set from this model would fit the 60%.
This way, I would simply order the 60% fully assembled and switch the keycaps.
Is it possible?
Absolutely yes.
Simply buy the UK or German layout, and then replace the keycaps with AZERTY. The AZERTY caps that The Keyboard Company is selling are ones that we had made, in part to service this GB. We had planned to sell them ourselves, but The Keyboard Company bought up our entire inventory of AZERTY. I encourage you to purchase from them.
Sorry for the confusion. Other ISO layouts not on offer can be serviced in the same way. Let me know if there are any requests.
Post by: Matias on Mon, 10 November 2014, 23:15:35
I am so excited about this board. The PC US layout is EXACTLY what I was looking for. Thanks Matias :thumb:
Great!
And I'm happy to report that the order page is now functional, so we can start taking orders...
http://matias.ca/60/pc/#order
I probably won't have time to post the GB notice until after my flight lands, so feel free to spread the word in the mean time.
Thanks to all who contributed to the discussion that ultimately led to this day! :-)
Post by: hjkl_over_wasd on Tue, 11 November 2014, 00:37:19
Matias - You don't write anything about the dip switch settings on the GB webpage. Did all the features you confirmed in this thread make it to the finished product?
Yes, everything I confirmed will be included. Which one in particular did you have in mind? Several are mentioned on the web page...
"The Matias 60% keyboard GB has many unique features that came at the specific request of users -- including swappable Ctrl / Caps Lock keys, Fn-layer triggers for system-side macros..."
"both keyboard layouts can be set to either PC or Mac, via a DIP switch setting -- so you are free to purchase whichever model you prefer."
I was thinking about the advanced Caps-lock/esc feature, where the caps key gets assigned a dual-role behavior for esc when tapped and ctrl when held down. With this setting freeing up the esc key, the key to the left of '1' becomes a pure `~ key.
Post by: spiceBar on Tue, 11 November 2014, 08:08:53
Quote
I want this keyboard, but I need it to be in AZERTY.
...
Matias, can you sell me AZERTY keycaps? I don't care about the modifiers and navigation keys, I would just want the letters, numbers and punctuation keycaps to match the AZERTY standard.
I see on the Keyboard Company website that the Quiet Pro exists in AZERTY, and I suspect a keycaps set from this model would fit the 60%.
This way, I would simply order the 60% fully assembled and switch the keycaps.
Is it possible?
Absolutely yes.
Simply buy the UK or German layout, and then replace the keycaps with AZERTY. The AZERTY caps that The Keyboard Company is selling are ones that we had made, in part to service this GB. We had planned to sell them ourselves, but The Keyboard Company bought up our entire inventory of AZERTY. I encourage you to purchase from them.
Sorry for the confusion. Other ISO layouts not on offer can be serviced in the same way. Let me know if there are any requests.
I have contacted the Keyboard Company and they tell me that the keycaps sets are going to be added to their listing in a few days. I'll be able to purchase an AZERTY set directly from them.
This clears the last hurdle for me. I'm going to order my 60% now.
Mmh... I'm thinking about ordering two, actually! :)
Post by: Norwegian on Tue, 11 November 2014, 15:03:02
I will wait til you have news from China (about pre-assembled Clicky ISO), and then take it from there.
Post by: vernonlloyd on Tue, 11 November 2014, 18:41:29
If we order now, what's the ETA? :-) (feeling excited...)
Post by: spiceBar on Tue, 11 November 2014, 19:12:12
Finally!
If we order now, what's the ETA? :-) (feeling excited...)
Why don't you read the product's page? The ETA is written over there.
NOTE: you are going to feel less excited after reading it.
Post by: SacKRoll on Tue, 11 November 2014, 20:55:25
Post by: SacKRoll on Fri, 14 November 2014, 13:47:43
Post by: AKmalamute on Fri, 14 November 2014, 16:49:41
matias, will this order time be up only for a month?While I haven't seen a response to this question, I'd like to point out that Matias has its own sub-forum, and
a GB thread (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=65528.0) was started there. You might try re-asking your question in the GB thread.
Post by: Matias on Fri, 14 November 2014, 17:04:31
I've arrived in China and had a bunch a vendors that needed an early visit -- so I've mostly been away from email / Internet for a few days. Going down to breakfast now, and will post answers and an update when I get back.
Post by: SacKRoll on Fri, 14 November 2014, 18:20:45
Post by: Matias on Sat, 15 November 2014, 05:12:53
Matias,
I will wait til you have news from China (about pre-assembled Clicky ISO), and then take it from there.
Okay, I've confirmed that we can pre-assemble small quantities with the various switch types, so I'll be updating the order form, and will let you know when it's up.
Finally!
If we order now, what's the ETA? :-) (feeling excited...)
We plan to start development after CES in January. It shouldn't take longer than 8-12 months to finish it -- though we're officially saying 8-18 months to give ourselves some extra wiggle room. However, this is a fairly straightforward design, which should not pose any problems, so I'd say closer to 8 months.
matias, will this order time be up only for a month?
The plan is to keep it up until shortly after CES, which is about 1.5 months.
If we're close to the next MOQ level for a PBT upgrade, we'll run it a little longer so that we hit that upgrade level, and everybody who ordered can benefit.
We break even at 250pcs, so we're hoping we sell that amount at a minimum.
Let me know if there are any other questions...
Post by: hjkl_over_wasd on Sat, 15 November 2014, 08:13:13
Post by: Matias on Sat, 15 November 2014, 08:56:47
Matias - Can you confirm the implementation of dual-role caps-lock (esc/ctrl) along with a dedicated `~ key in the firmware?
Yes, this is in the spec. Will include it.
Post by: Hypersphere on Sat, 15 November 2014, 12:14:10
Hi Matias: Per your request, here is my most likely decision and why:Interesting project.
I had hoped that the Mac version would include an option for a short Right Shift, so that I could reprogram the adjacent Del key as Fn.
The PCB supports it -- it's the same PCB for all models. So if you're building it yourself, you could get the PC version, and cut the little crossbars in the nav cluster, then solder the full height Mac modifiers instead.Does the Fn key in either the Mac or PC version send a scan code? That is, can it be remapped in software? If not, then the Fn key(s) will be wasted space for me.
Fn does not send a code.Can I get extra Mac keycaps if I order the PC version?
Yes, we'll have those available as well.Too bad about no PBT in the initial run. The odd-size bottom row will make it difficult or impossible to get replacement keycaps.
Just to be clear, the bottom row will be PBT.
How many more end up being PBT depends on which MOQ level we achieve (650 or 1k pcs).
We'll be offering replacement keycaps.It would have been great to have been able to get a HHKB layout with Matias switches. As it stands, I am not sure it would be worth trying to retrofit the 60% Matias to some semblance of a HHKB. I regret that I will probably need to pass on this opportunity and stick with my HHKB.
Okay, let me know what you ultimately decide, and why. We're hoping to learn as much as possible from this project.
I admire your inventiveness in coming out with a new and controversial design for a 60% keyboard. It is also refreshing to see a new keyboard with Matias Alps-inspired switches as an option instead of the ubiquitous Cherry mx. In addition, having Mac and PC versions along with additional programmability is quite welcome.
All of these positives notwithstanding, I am probably not going to order the Matias 60. The main reason is that for me, the perfect 60% keyboard is the HHKB Pro 2.
Prof. Wada spent a decade researching and developing the HHKB, and I think he produced a classic work that artfully unites form and function. The overall design, styling, and symmetry of the HHKB combined with the attractive and highly legible dye-sublimated PBT keycaps is just beautiful. Moreover, the Topre switches are a delight to type on. But the thing that really sets the HHKB apart is the well thought-out layout, which is highly intuitive and efficient. I am primarily a Mac user, and the HHKB layout is so good that I have remapped all my other keyboards to something as close to a HHKB/Mac configuration as possible.
Remapping most standard TKL keyboards to a HHKB/Mac layout is usually quite straightforward. Because the TKL design does not have a split Right Shift, I usually remap Right Control as Fn. I find things too cramped if I try to use the Menu key as Fn, and so I remap Menu as Right Control.
The PC version of the Matias 60 would be fine as far as the top 4 rows go. Backspace and Backslash can be swapped, CapsLock can be remapped as Control, and the Del key to the right of Right Shift could be remapped as Fn.
Unfortunately, the bottom row presents problems. The vertically stretched modifiers and spacebar take up more vertical space than necessary, and I would be concerned about the key action of these keys, especially with off-center key presses. Because I am accustomed to having arrow keys and other navigation keys in the Fn layer, these keys are largely superfluous for me. However, when I use a TKL board, I sometimes make use of the redundant keys. Nevertheless, I like to have Opt and Command on each side of the Spacebar with at most one extra key to the left of the Spacebar and two extras to the right of the Spacebar. Because the hardwired Fn key on the Matias 60% does not send a scan code, with my remapping, it would end up being a dead key just taking up space and interrupting the normal positions of left-side modifiers. The Mac version of the Matias 60 would help with some of these issues, but then I would not have a split Right Shift for an adjacent Fn key. There might be workarounds for some of the problems with a DIY kit, but I would prefer having the keyboard preassembled.
If I were to purchase this board, I would want Matias switches. If I wanted Cherry switches in a 60% board, I would just buy a Poker II (except that I do not like the Poker II or Cherry mx switches). I also much prefer PBT over ABS and dye-sublimation over other forms of printing. These choices would make it difficult if not impossible to find replacement or alternative keycaps for the Matias 60, especially for the bottom row.
With all this in mind, although I really like the notion of a 60% keyboard with an option for Matias switches, I regret that the design and probable lack of keycap availability are most likely going to be deal breakers for me. I might be more tempted if I were not already so satisfied with the HHKB Pro 2, but for me the PFU Topre 60% is just about perfect, and I am already heavily invested in it with 5 of these keyboards in use on workstations in my home and work offices.
Although the Matias 60 might not be for me, it looks like a great project that admirably fills a need for those who have not already adopted the HHKB Pro 2 or Poker II and who want a 60% form factor keyboard that has dedicated arrow keys in the primary layer. The Matias 60 also provides an opportunity to have Matias switches (and a choice among three types of them) in a 60% keyboard. As such, I think the Matias 60 ought to have a bright future, and I wish you well with this new venture!
Post by: Jotokun on Sat, 15 November 2014, 12:41:07
Post by: SacKRoll on Sat, 15 November 2014, 13:05:01
[...] We break even at 250pcs, so we're hoping we sell that amount at a minimum.
Let me know if there are any other questions...
IMHO, if you put it on Massdrop, easily these orders would be reached (and I bet the 1000 ones, too).
Post by: dante on Sat, 15 November 2014, 13:18:35
Post by: spiceBar on Sat, 15 November 2014, 13:33:08
Prof. Wada spent a decade researching and developing the HHKB,
...and was already senile when he designed the final product.
There is no way spending half of your time on the keyboard pressing an Fn key with your pinky can be considered an acceptable design. Adding insult to injury, reaching for Home and End is painful on the HHKB.
Matias' design is much, much better.
Please save the HHKB distortion field propaganda for another thread.
Post by: Norwegian on Sat, 15 November 2014, 22:29:57
I would think that it would be in everybody's best interest to get as many people as possible to be aware of this keyboard. So linking this thread with the necessary information on other places might be a good idea, to get more buyers, as I am sure this keyboard has potential.
Post by: jacobolus on Sun, 16 November 2014, 00:00:00
I'm not very active in keyboard communities, as I am mostly busy on other forums, but is this 60% keyboard announced elsewhere, such as Reddit, Deskthority, etc.?Yes, as can easily be verified by 2 minutes of search on those sites or google:
http://deskthority.net/product-news-f44/matias-60-gb-now-live-t9091.html
http://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/2lt0j5/matias_60_keyboard_page_is_up_preorders_available/
Please do link Matias’s page (http://matias.ca/60/pc/) elsewhere though; it’s an interesting keyboard somewhat different than other available options.
Post by: SacKRoll on Mon, 24 November 2014, 21:03:30
Post by: spiceBar on Mon, 24 November 2014, 22:11:59
who here has already bought this 60%?
I have ordered 2, fully assembled, PC style bottom row (Home, End, ...), with Matias quiet switches.
Meanwhile I have purchased a Matias laptop pro (Bluetooth) with Matias quiet switches, and I love them. So I'm confident I'll love the 60%.
Post by: CPTBadAss on Tue, 25 November 2014, 06:26:41
Okay, let me know what you ultimately decide, and why. We're hoping to learn as much as possible from this project.
For what it's worth, I'm going to offer my opinion on why I won't be buying this board. I'm disappointed. I've eagerly awaited this buy for months. I've saved for the buy and was excited for the DIY kit. I didn't even mind the odd bottom row. I like new layouts and new things.
But the price point to me is all wrong.
Since this is an Alps board, and because Matias is going to have proper caps, I would need to buy:
- PCB = $30
- Plate/Stabilizers = $20
- Case = $20
- Keycap Set = $45
- Switches = $50
Total before shipping = $165. Shipping appears to be another $30 extra but I could be misunderstanding the shipping costs. Grand total is $195.
To put this in perspective the Duck Mini V2 can be had for $275 from the GB runner (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=50322.0). The Duck Mini V2 has full programmability, which this board won't; a major selling point for me. A Matias Tactile Pro Mini can be had (http://matias.ca/minitactilepro/mac/) for $130.
I think the price point is completely off. I'm paying $60 more versus a Tactile Mini (which I can have now) and $35 more than the built board?? I've *never* seen a DIY kit cost more than an assembled board. I understand there's logistics involved and other reasons (labor, low quantity run, not guaranteed sales, etc) but I'm seriously disappointed. I could just get a Tactile Mini Pro now and be done with it.
Another complaint? I hate mismatched materials on a keyboard so the plan for PBT bottom row and ABS upper row isn't for me. I'd rather spend on all PBT or just have all ABS. But the tiers aren't setup that way and I don't see 1000 boards being sold in this buy.
I'm really sad that this didn't play out like I hoped. It feels like those wanting to go the DIY route are being punished and I don't think the built price of $150 is the proper point for a GB. Good luck with the buy Matias. I look forward to seeing reviews and pictures of this board.
Edit: I can't math. Fixed to correct subtraction error.
Post by: Hypersphere on Tue, 25 November 2014, 08:59:41
Post by: vivalarevolución on Tue, 02 December 2014, 08:52:08
Okay, let me know what you ultimately decide, and why. We're hoping to learn as much as possible from this project.
For what it's worth, I'm going to offer my opinion on why I won't be buying this board. I'm disappointed. I've eagerly awaited this buy for months. I've saved for the buy and was excited for the DIY kit. I didn't even mind the odd bottom row. I like new layouts and new things.
But the price point to me is all wrong.
Since this is an Alps board, and because Matias is going to have proper caps, I would need to buy:
- PCB = $30
- Plate/Stabilizers = $20
- Case = $20
- Keycap Set = $45
- Switches = $50
Total before shipping = $165. Shipping appears to be another $30 extra but I could be misunderstanding the shipping costs. Grand total is $195.
To put this in perspective the Duck Mini V2 can be had for $275 from the GB runner (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=50322.0). The Duck Mini V2 has full programmability, which this board won't; a major selling point for me. A Matias Tactile Pro Mini can be had (http://matias.ca/minitactilepro/mac/) for $130.
I think the price point is completely off. I'm paying $60 more versus a Tactile Mini (which I can have now) and $35 more than the built board?? I've *never* seen a DIY kit cost more than an assembled board. I understand there's logistics involved and other reasons (labor, low quantity run, not guaranteed sales, etc) but I'm seriously disappointed. I could just get a Tactile Mini Pro now and be done with it.
Another complaint? I hate mismatched materials on a keyboard so the plan for PBT bottom row and ABS upper row isn't for me. I'd rather spend on all PBT or just have all ABS. But the tiers aren't setup that way and I don't see 1000 boards being sold in this buy.
I'm really sad that this didn't play out like I hoped. It feels like those wanting to go the DIY route are being punished and I don't think the built price of $150 is the proper point for a GB. Good luck with the buy Matias. I look forward to seeing reviews and pictures of this board.
Edit: I can't math. Fixed to correct subtraction error.
I can understand why the price will be higher than Tactile Mini, because of production costs for a limited run. The economies of scale on the Tactile Mini probably produce a lower price with longer timelines and greater quantity to spread out the production costs. I'm no businessman, but that's what I'm guessing. In my view, $160 shipped and assembled seems like a great deal for a one-off board from a reputable manufacturer, especially with all the options.
The cheapest you can get the unassembled version while splitting switch costs with one other person and shipping costs included seems to be $125. Now if appropriate number of switches could be divided up per board and shipping of the components combined into one price, that would sweeten the deal.
Post by: hjkl_over_wasd on Wed, 03 December 2014, 06:23:51
Post by: dante on Sat, 06 December 2014, 19:14:34
Post by: Norwegian on Sat, 06 December 2014, 19:28:07
When will you add the ISO option to the order page as you said you would?
Post by: Nuum on Sun, 07 December 2014, 03:28:09
Post by: Norwegian on Sun, 07 December 2014, 05:24:30
(http://s1.postimg.org/hfuk4bzwv/US_Only.jpg)
My questions to Matias in this thread on the previous page was about having this keyboard assembled before shipping it to me, as I specifically said I was not interested in parts. So Matias said he would check in China, then get back to me when it was added on the order page. This was almost a month ago. Of course I can wait some more, and see what happens, but another month is sure to pass quickly.
Post by: Nuum on Sun, 07 December 2014, 06:06:59
Post by: SacKRoll on Fri, 02 January 2015, 21:28:54
Post by: JaccoW on Sat, 03 January 2015, 06:43:53
the ending of this GB is coming.I know. :(
I really want this but I just cannot spend that kind of money right now. A month later or the end of February would be better but as it stands I will have to let this one pass.
I would have loved the alu case version.
Post by: Matias on Sat, 03 January 2015, 09:55:33
I've had my hands full finishing the Ergo Pro and the leadup to CES, but will be posting some good news soon about the 60% keyboard -- likely after CES.
In the mean time, Happy New Year! :)
Post by: Norwegian on Sun, 04 January 2015, 08:19:57
I'm disappointed that you never added Clicky ISO to the order page which you said you would do. I am also disappointed that you've not replied to my posts in this thread since early November.
Post by: Hypersphere on Sun, 04 January 2015, 08:59:21
Post by: SacKRoll on Sat, 10 January 2015, 22:15:31
[...]will be posting some good news soon about the 60% keyboard -- likely after CES.[...]
Will your 60% keyboard has regular production like your other ones?
Post by: spiceBar on Sun, 11 January 2015, 04:25:48
[...]will be posting some good news soon about the 60% keyboard -- likely after CES.[...]
Will your 60% keyboard has regular production like your other ones?
I think the answer is no. It's one run, and that's it. Order one while you can.
Post by: Hypersphere on Sun, 11 January 2015, 09:19:24
+ Swap Backspace and Backslash.
+ Change CapsLock to Control.
+ Change the location(s) of the Fn key(s) on the PC and/or Mac versions.
Post by: SacKRoll on Sun, 18 January 2015, 21:37:32
Post by: jacobolus on Sun, 18 January 2015, 23:08:29
where is matias? one week without an answer... :'(He was at CES the week before last, and then in China as they gear up for ErgoPro production. Cf. https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=53184.msg1598395#msg1598395
Post by: Matias on Mon, 19 January 2015, 03:57:20
where is matias? one week without an answer... :'(He was at CES the week before last, and then in China as they gear up for ErgoPro production. Cf. https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=53184.msg1598395#msg1598395
Yes, I'm in China now and will be here until the beginning of February.
We're finishing the Ergo Pro before starting on the 60%. We're also in discussions with MassDrop about taking over the group buy. That's all I can say about it for now, as the discussions have just started. :-)
Post by: Matias on Mon, 19 January 2015, 04:26:07
Are the DIP switch settings listed anywhere? In particular, I would like to know if there will be settings for the following:
+ Swap Backspace and Backslash.
+ Change CapsLock to Control.
+ Change the location(s) of the Fn key(s) on the PC and/or Mac versions.
Yes to all of the above. Fn keys swap positions automatically when you switch between PC/Mac (as shown in the IC)...
https://geekhack.org/?topic=60268.360
I'm disappointed that you never added Clicky ISO to the order page which you said you would do. I am also disappointed that you've not replied to my posts in this thread since early November.
Sorry that I've been somewhat MIA recently. We're pretty focused on finishing the Ergo Pro at the moment, before starting on the 60. Was also crazy busy leading up to CES, Christmas, Ergo Expo (all around the same time). I will post an update once the option is added.
Post by: Hypersphere on Mon, 19 January 2015, 08:28:16
Post by: Matias on Mon, 19 January 2015, 09:01:09
@Matias: Thanks. Glad to see that there will be a DIP switch setting to swap Backspace (Delete) and Backslash.
We aim to please... :-)
Post by: Lunatique on Fri, 23 January 2015, 09:41:16
Post by: Lunatique on Fri, 23 January 2015, 18:09:45
Post by: rsadek on Wed, 28 January 2015, 11:56:29
Just learned about this group buy. I'm ready to purchase today, but I have one question I couldn't answer from the thread.
Will the nav keys (pgUp, pgDown,...) send different codes than fn-up, fn-down, etc? In other words, do I get more keys/functionality in the full nav PC version vs. the 2xFn Mac version?
My hope is to use this on a mac and have a few extra hotkeys to avoid conflicts.
Thanks!
Post by: rsadek on Thu, 29 January 2015, 12:45:48
Re backlighting: I'd adjustable (at least on/off) backlighting. Often I have to work in the dark, with only the screen as illumination: hitting the wrong F-# key is a common frustration for me, especially when debugging code. I'd love to be able to make sure I'm hitting the right key while doing sensitive, error-prone work.
Re keycaps: I would love to have white PBT Mac backlit keys.
When does this group buy end? I'm eager to order my, but I hope to answer the mac / nav key question before I do so....
Thanks!
-R
Post by: Norwegian on Tue, 24 March 2015, 16:00:45
Sorry to be a bother:
I know you said you'd post an update here when the option of Clicky ISO is added to the purchase option, but I'm just wondering if we're closing in on that update or if it's still some time to go.
Thanks.
Post by: Asininity on Tue, 24 March 2015, 22:24:34
Post by: slaction on Tue, 31 March 2015, 01:22:34
Post by: 3rain3ug on Thu, 23 April 2015, 06:01:07
Post by: Matias on Thu, 23 April 2015, 23:17:48
@Matias: Any Updates?
Yes, I can confirm that the keyboard will have all PBT caps now. I'm reviewing the final keycap drawings now, and we'll be starting on that tooling soon.
Sorry to be a bother:
I know you said you'd post an update here when the option of Clicky ISO is added to the purchase option, but I'm just wondering if we're closing in on that update or if it's still some time to go.
No problem. If you're eager to get your order in, you can place an order for the Quiet Click ISO version and then just write in the comment field at the end... "Clicky switch unit as per Edgar".
Let me know if you have any other questions...
Post by: zxz on Sat, 25 April 2015, 05:28:01
edit: just noticed you have linear switches available for ordering as well, what's the activation force 35 cN or 55 cN?
Post by: Hypersphere on Sat, 25 April 2015, 17:07:05
Post by: zxz on Sun, 26 April 2015, 02:20:02
Post by: 3rain3ug on Tue, 16 June 2015, 08:36:05
Post by: Matias on Tue, 16 June 2015, 15:37:40
Would be nice to get an Update each Month... so whats the current status? Next steps?...
Yes, last update was 3 weeks ago, posted on the GB thread. Probably I should be cross posting them here too...
https://geekhack.org/?topic=65528.msg1759234#msg1759234
Here's the latest...
As stated in the GB thread, I can now confirm that all keycaps on the 60 will be PBT. Keycap tooling is already underway.
We've been doing test plates, to nail down the optimal hole sizes & shapes for jointly supporting ALPS and Cherry at different plate thicknesses. My original estimates worked fine after soldering, but there was room for tightening things up a bit, so we're doing more tests. We've completed 4 rounds of testing so far. The next round should be final or very close to it.
One of our goals in this is to estabilish a reference design for jointly supporting ALPS & Cherry, in a way that makes it very easy for people to make their own custom keyboards. For example, we've managed to get the one-off plate cost below $100. For a single custom plate, that's very inexpensive.
Moving on to the questions below...
Do the blank keycap sets include extras so that one set of blanks would cover either the Mac or PC layout?
Yes, for the blanks sets, they will include all caps needed to cover all layout options.
Also going through the pre order, it seems even if you get a pack of linear switches you still have to pay an extra $10 for shipping even when already paying for a keyboard delivery of $10. Is this correct?
Yes, that's correct.
Wow full PBT caps :cool: do you have any plans to sell springs from the linear model separately or would I just have to buy a pack of the linear from crowd supply and switch them out?
edit: just noticed you have linear switches available for ordering as well, what's the activation force 35 cN or 55 cN?
35 cN for the quiet linears. More info here...
https://www.crowdsupply.com/open-steno-project/mechanical-keyboard-switch
We have no plans to sell springs, but you can certainly mix & match the springs from different switches. The springs in the quiet linear switches are the same as the springs in the quiet click switches -- the clicky switch springs are different.
Post by: yyr on Sun, 05 July 2015, 03:45:11
[attach=1]
Post by: KHAANNN on Thu, 12 November 2015, 11:50:00
For those who want real programmability, this would be the easiest way to add it: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=69169.0 (If costs aren't the main concern)
It's too late but it would have been great if alternate functions could be inscribed to the sides of the keycaps, rather than occupy the front faces and makes things unreadable and crowded (especially the top-rows)
Post by: vivalarevolución on Thu, 12 November 2015, 21:06:48
Post by: billm on Sat, 02 January 2016, 03:02:34
Post by: belac on Sat, 02 January 2016, 09:31:45
I just discovered this project. I'd like to join the group buy but seems like the project has been around for about 18mo. now. Is it still alive? Are there updates?https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=65528.0
Matias 60% Keyboard Group Buy
Post by: sordna on Sat, 02 January 2016, 13:39:13
35 cN for the quiet linears. More info here...
Hi, about the linear switches, this page (http://matias.ca/switches/linear/) says the bottom out force is 35cn. Isn't that wrong? If the actuation force is 35cn, surely the force when you bottom out the switch should be greater.
Nice keyboard by the way! Is the cable detachable with (hopefully) micro-USB connector ?
Are the final DIP switch settings available? It would be nice if in the PC version you could have a DIP switch to switch Home/End to RightCtrl/~ (and have Fn+left/right be home/end instead).
Post by: Matias on Sat, 02 January 2016, 16:59:16
I just discovered this project. I'd like to join the group buy but seems like the project has been around for about 18mo. now. Is it still alive? Are there updates?
https://geekhack.org/?topic=65528.0
Matias 60% Keyboard Group Buy
Yes, it's very much still on, but we've been delayed a bit by the PBT keycaps. We're trying to work out a solution for white legends on black PBT -- we're close, but still not quite there.
I've been providing updates as people ask questions, but there are two different threads (this one and the one belac quoted above).
35 cN for the quiet linears. More info here...
Hi, about the linear switches, this page (http://matias.ca/switches/linear/) says the bottom out force is 35cn. Isn't that wrong? If the actuation force is 35cn, surely the force when you bottom out the switch should be greater.
If it had just a simple coil spring (like a Cherry switch) that would be true, but there's a leaf spring that balances out the forces as you press.
Nice keyboard by the way! Is the cable detachable with (hopefully) micro-USB connector ?
Yes, it's micro-USB.
Are the final DIP switch settings available? It would be nice if in the PC version you could have a DIP switch to switch Home/End to RightCtrl/~ (and have Fn+left/right be home/end instead).
That's essentially the Mac version you're describing. Just get the Mac one, and switch the DIP from Mac to PC.
Post by: billm on Sun, 03 January 2016, 00:07:39
Post by: Matias on Mon, 04 January 2016, 13:42:26
Will the PCB and plate accept complicated ALPS?
Yes, of course. Simplified and complicated ALPS have the same PCB mounting specs.
Post by: lobehold on Thu, 11 February 2016, 12:57:47
We're trying to work out a solution for white legends on black PBT -- we're close, but still not quite there.
Wait, WoB keycaps is a thing? How do you get them? Do they come with the white case (plastic and aluminum)?
Post by: Hypersphere on Fri, 19 February 2016, 17:45:41
For black on white PBT are you going to use dye sublimation? This is of course tried and true, formerly by IBM and others.
In my case, I am mostly interested in black blanks, but it would be good to have some color options as well, such as blank blue and blank red.
Post by: Ludovician on Fri, 19 February 2016, 19:45:49
Post by: KHAANNN on Fri, 19 February 2016, 20:03:45
Can't wait until they are freely available
Post by: vivalarevolución on Mon, 22 February 2016, 19:49:37
After a year of using custom keyboards, I think these keyboards might make me use a production keyboard again
Can't wait until they are freely available
I'm sorta leaning the same way, simply for time saving purposes. I like learning and building stuff, but I'm at a point in my life that I need to focus more on income-generating learning and building stuff.
Post by: KHAANNN on Mon, 22 February 2016, 22:21:12
After a year of using custom keyboards, I think these keyboards might make me use a production keyboard again
Can't wait until they are freely available
I'm sorta leaning the same way, simply for time saving purposes. I like learning and building stuff, but I'm at a point in my life that I need to focus more on income-generating learning and building stuff.
Haha, same
However, keyboard building is my first hobby-hobby that produced something useful, and it's very motivate, motivation which can and does fuel money making endeavours
I really miss just buying a pre-produced keyboard, I still remember how excited I got when I first got my WASD V2's, the new keyboard smell - have never used any alps-type switches before, these keyboards would be a great introduction to alps
Whenever they are available, I will buy one of all the alps-type switched ones
I just hope they keep keycaps simple, and maybe not stick to the complex top-row: https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=60268.0;attach=70123;image - it would be great to own an alps keyboard that shares the simplicity of old apple keyboards that people still use and re-purpose
Post by: 3rain3ug on Mon, 29 February 2016, 11:17:21
When we will get the keyboards?
18 Month was aspected since June 2014 (I already ordered mine in Nov 2014).
I get a litle bit worried about my money...
Post by: Matias on Tue, 01 March 2016, 05:19:40
Could You give us a roadmap with some Milestones or something?
When we will get the keyboards?
Yes, we were held up by the keycap tooling, but that's close to being resolved. We now have a laser process for getting light on dark PBT legends (which is not possible with dyesub). I posted an update (with photo) here...
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=45483.msg2041015#msg2041015
The 3D design is mostly done also. We're fixing a few things up before posting an update in the next few days. We're aiming for production in the summer.
18 Month was aspected since June 2014 (I already ordered mine in Nov 2014).
I get a litle bit worried about my money...
You should not worry. If you decide that it's too long a wait, you can contact us and get a full refund.
This has gone a lot longer than I originally planned, and I'm sorry about that. Quite frankly, I think we aimed a little too high with the PBT tooling. The legend printing process really screwed with our schedule.
Having said all that, most of the difficult work is now done, and if you can manage the wait, I think you'll be very happy with the keyboard.
Let me know if there are any other questions...
Post by: bnthor on Tue, 01 March 2016, 07:43:39
Keycaps: Mac - ISO (Even better if it was FR)
Nav Cluster:Full Nav Cluster
Switches: Quiet click ALPS
Fully Assembled
Post by: Hypersphere on Tue, 01 March 2016, 08:36:44
Post by: JaccoW on Tue, 01 March 2016, 10:32:29
Do you still accept orders?
Post by: Matias on Wed, 02 March 2016, 03:49:06
http://matias.ca/60
Really looking forward to finally having all this stuff finished! :-)
Post by: vivalarevolución on Thu, 03 March 2016, 21:19:37
Could You give us a roadmap with some Milestones or something?
When we will get the keyboards?
Yes, we were held up by the keycap tooling, but that's close to being resolved. We now have a laser process for getting light on dark PBT legends (which is not possible with dyesub). I posted an update (with photo) here...https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=45483.msg2041015#msg2041015
The 3D design is mostly done also. We're fixing a few things up before posting an update in the next few days. We're aiming for production in the summer.18 Month was aspected since June 2014 (I already ordered mine in Nov 2014).
I get a litle bit worried about my money...
You should not worry. If you decide that it's too long a wait, you can contact us and get a full refund.
This has gone a lot longer than I originally planned, and I'm sorry about that. Quite frankly, I think we aimed a little too high with the PBT tooling. The legend printing process really screwed with our schedule.
Having said all that, most of the difficult work is now done, and if you can manage the wait, I think you'll be very happy with the keyboard.
Let me know if there are any other questions...
Thanks for the update and the offer for a refund, if anybody wants it. Making stuff is hard.
Post by: auto-d2 on Tue, 15 March 2016, 12:28:16
I take it there wasn't enough interest for a hardware Dvorak version?
Are the blank keycaps in the shop only suitable for the US layout?
Post by: 3rain3ug on Mon, 21 March 2016, 05:17:36
Could You give us a roadmap with some Milestones or something?
When we will get the keyboards?
Yes, we were held up by the keycap tooling, but that's close to being resolved. We now have a laser process for getting light on dark PBT legends (which is not possible with dyesub). I posted an update (with photo) here...https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=45483.msg2041015#msg2041015
The 3D design is mostly done also. We're fixing a few things up before posting an update in the next few days. We're aiming for production in the summer.18 Month was aspected since June 2014 (I already ordered mine in Nov 2014).
I get a litle bit worried about my money...
You should not worry. If you decide that it's too long a wait, you can contact us and get a full refund.
This has gone a lot longer than I originally planned, and I'm sorry about that. Quite frankly, I think we aimed a little too high with the PBT tooling. The legend printing process really screwed with our schedule.
Having said all that, most of the difficult work is now done, and if you can manage the wait, I think you'll be very happy with the keyboard.
Let me know if there are any other questions...
Thx for your Update and the possibility for a refund.
But I will trust you that you will get the things done! =)
I am genuinely curious to see the final product. I'll stay patiently...
Post by: Luminair on Sat, 02 April 2016, 01:42:30
- arrows under WASD with fn+WASD
- option to swap fn and control
- windows key merged onto left alt :P so there are only 3 option keys on the left side
I also have a question: Is the clattering of keys on modern keyboards caused by the plastic switch stem touching the plastic key? If so, would rubberizing part of the mating surface stop this clacking? Or some other method? I've never enjoyed the way modern keyboards click when you tap the key (without pressing it down). Would the PBT keycap or aluminum base change this phenomenon?
Keep up the good work Mr. Matias! :)
Post by: GooNyang on Sun, 03 April 2016, 17:16:47
Post by: 3rain3ug on Mon, 06 June 2016, 11:29:10
Post by: vivalarevolución on Wed, 08 June 2016, 18:43:36
Post by: 3rain3ug on Wed, 22 June 2016, 08:20:38
Post by: 3rain3ug on Wed, 29 June 2016, 06:43:08
Who from you ordered/paid for that ?
Post by: dante on Wed, 29 June 2016, 08:31:47
Post by: 3rain3ug on Sat, 02 July 2016, 03:46:37
Post by: Luminair on Sat, 02 July 2016, 23:04:39
Post by: sprit on Sat, 02 July 2016, 23:42:35
I think Matias has been seduced by Dim Sum and is never returning from China.I love The Taiwanese Dim Sum haha :)
Post by: PriusProblems on Mon, 04 July 2016, 05:43:38
Post by: Luminair on Mon, 18 July 2016, 13:29:06
This is a new 60% keyboard
Are there any new pictures from the factory? :)
PS: Smart68 60% is up for sale and I want to offer my impression relative to Matias 60%. See image: https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=83442.0;attach=142355;image -- Smart68 is 1 key wider, but that allows the delete key and pageup/pagedown keys to be in familiar places on the right hand side. I feel comfortable with the look of the Smart68 design. But I cannot say which is best to use, because I haven't used either.
Post by: billm on Fri, 30 September 2016, 12:41:14
Post by: Lunatique on Fri, 30 September 2016, 13:09:57
Post by: Belfong on Thu, 13 October 2016, 21:11:01
Is there a status update on this project?If you read in the website https://matias.store/collections/mechanical-keyboards/products/60-keyboard?variant=21105295491
Quote
As of August 2016, we are happy to advise that we have received enough preorders that we will be doing the entire keyboard with PBT keycaps. Current estimate is that design and tooling will be finalized in Fall 2016, and production will occur in Spring 2017. Thanks for the feedback we have received from everyone in designing the keyboard features and options in this special group buy.
Post by: billm on Thu, 13 October 2016, 22:16:19
Post by: menuhin on Sun, 16 October 2016, 09:44:51
Is there a status update on this project?If you read in the website https://matias.store/collections/mechanical-keyboards/products/60-keyboard?variant=21105295491QuoteAs of August 2016, we are happy to advise that we have received enough preorders that we will be doing the entire keyboard with PBT keycaps. Current estimate is that design and tooling will be finalized in Fall 2016, and production will occur in Spring 2017. Thanks for the feedback we have received from everyone in designing the keyboard features and options in this special group buy.
Can the Mac layout work in Windows? There're functional layers to access the home/end and PgUp/PgDn in Mac, right?
What about Linux?
I'm not waiting, but this product will finally be there in 2017. Just like the Apple iPhone.
I can stand only PBT caps, so I'm all up for it now. I hope by the way, the price can be adjusted.
Post by: billm on Thu, 22 December 2016, 14:10:55
At some point incompetence simply becomes fraud. How about a refund, or was this just a scam all along?
Post by: belac on Thu, 22 December 2016, 14:13:21
I joined this group buy in Jan 2016. At that point the project was already 18months old. I asked and was assured that it was still alive so I paid. Its now December 2016 and the website for the project does not project having shippable product until Fall 2017.Matias has already said they will issue a refund to anyone that doesn't want to wait.
At some point incompetence simply becomes fraud. How about a refund, or was this just a scam all along?
Post by: billm on Thu, 22 December 2016, 14:18:41
I don't mean to be a ****, but in my experience the only way a project can languish for 2.5 years is if nobody is actually doing the work.
Post by: belac on Thu, 22 December 2016, 14:24:04
Great! Do you know where I can officially request one?This is the post where be mentioned it https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgeekhack%2Eorg%2Findex%2Ephp%3Ftopic%3D60268%2Emsg2077709%2Emsg%232077709&share_tid=60268&share_fid=2190&share_type=t&share_pid=2077709
I don't mean to be a ****, but in my experience the only way a project can languish for 2.5 years is if nobody is actually doing the work.
so you can probably just reply to your order confirmation email. That's what I did when I was seeking more information.
Post by: billm on Thu, 22 December 2016, 14:25:27
Post by: Lunatique on Thu, 22 December 2016, 14:33:03
I joined this group buy in Jan 2016. At that point the project was already 18months old. I asked and was assured that it was still alive so I paid. Its now December 2016 and the website for the project does not project having shippable product until Fall 2017.Matias has already said they will issue a refund to anyone that doesn't want to wait.
At some point incompetence simply becomes fraud. How about a refund, or was this just a scam all along?
I asked for a refund recently and got it, so I can attest to this.
Yes, it's disappointing when an established company takes this long to produce a keyboard (I'm also looking at you, TextBlade). There are Kickstarter/Indiegogo campaigns involving much more complex tech that has gotten done faster than this. But I actually don't mind waiting for pre-ordered products if it's not something I urgently need. I mean, I have far too many keyboards already, so it's really just a luxury item for me.
The reason I cancelled my order was because I just don't have any patience for keyboard layouts that require me to use Fn combos for often used keys anymore, because they are just not worth the trouble when you need to be productive (I use Function keys all the time when using Photoshop, as well as just in general). I now also think this quest to make keyboards smaller is counterproductive, because ergonomically, once you shrink past TKL layout, ergonomics in relation to muscle memory drops in efficiency, since there are less tactile cues to find keys without looking (such as useful gaps between key clusters), and Fn combos are not ideal. Realistically, just how many people have so tiny of a desk space that they desperately need to shave off size from a TKL keyboard? I'm going to sell off all of my non-TKL keyboards at this point because after years of trying different layouts, none are better than TKL for me.
Post by: billm on Thu, 22 December 2016, 15:02:58
Now to see what can be done about the $175 I spent on Round 6 keycaps from 7bit at Deskthority, also going on a year and no product.
No more "group buys" for me.
Post by: Matias on Mon, 26 December 2016, 12:57:13
OK well I just found my original invoice and requested a refund. We'll see.
Now to see what can be done about the $175 I spent on Round 6 keycaps from 7bit at Deskthority, also going on a year and no product.
No more "group buys" for me.
Sorry you've had to wait so long. You can certainly get a refund. I've mentioned this before.
I think we over-promised what was reasonable to do in the time span we laid out -- especially the PBT keycaps.
However, the project is still going forward, and I believe that those who stick with it will be pleasantly surprised with the final unit they receive.
There's some more related info in this post...
https://geekhack.org/?topic=45483.msg2327733#msg2327733 (https://geekhack.org/?topic=45483.msg2327733#msg2327733)
Please feel free to post questions.
Post by: Belfong on Mon, 26 December 2016, 19:33:21
Post by: Luminair on Tue, 24 January 2017, 22:33:02
Please feel free to post questions.
One of the gentlepeople above made an interesting point about the F-keys. They basically say that any use of the F-keys makes removing them not worth the space saved.
The reason I cancelled my order was because I just don't have any patience for keyboard layouts that require me to use Fn combos for often used keys anymore, because they are just not worth the trouble when you need to be productive (I use Function keys all the time when using Photoshop, as well as just in general). I now also think this quest to make keyboards smaller is counterproductive, because ergonomically, once you shrink past TKL layout, ergonomics in relation to muscle memory drops in efficiency, since there are less tactile cues to find keys without looking (such as useful gaps between key clusters), and Fn combos are not ideal. Realistically, just how many people have so tiny of a desk space that they desperately need to shave off size from a TKL keyboard? I'm going to sell off all of my non-TKL keyboards at this point because after years of trying different layouts, none are better than TKL for me.
I think this is a valid point. I don't know how many people are happy without F-keys... But I do know that you are uniquely positioned to add small F-keys to a 60% mechanical keyboard! :) Have you considered another sibling to this and Ergo Pro, with the F-keys on top? I suspect you have. There may even be a prototype image on your computer ;)
To all readers: Has there ever been a poll to compare interest between a regular 60% keyboard and one with F-keys? (Not TKL)
Post by: Lunatique on Tue, 24 January 2017, 22:57:13
Please feel free to post questions.
One of the gentlepeople above made an interesting point about the F-keys. They basically say that any use of the F-keys makes removing them not worth the space saved.The reason I cancelled my order was because I just don't have any patience for keyboard layouts that require me to use Fn combos for often used keys anymore, because they are just not worth the trouble when you need to be productive (I use Function keys all the time when using Photoshop, as well as just in general). I now also think this quest to make keyboards smaller is counterproductive, because ergonomically, once you shrink past TKL layout, ergonomics in relation to muscle memory drops in efficiency, since there are less tactile cues to find keys without looking (such as useful gaps between key clusters), and Fn combos are not ideal. Realistically, just how many people have so tiny of a desk space that they desperately need to shave off size from a TKL keyboard? I'm going to sell off all of my non-TKL keyboards at this point because after years of trying different layouts, none are better than TKL for me.
I think this is a valid point. I don't know how many people are happy without F-keys... But I do know that you are uniquely positioned to add small F-keys to a 60% mechanical keyboard! :) Have you considered another sibling to this and Ergo Pro, with the F-keys on top? I suspect you have. There may even be a prototype image on your computer ;)
To all readers: Has there ever been a poll to compare interest between a regular 60% keyboard and one with F-keys? (Not TKL)
It seems like the closest thing would be 84-key keyboards, but those have the problem of erasing all spaces between clusters, thus harder to hit specific keys with muscle memory/tactile feel alone.
If Matias (or any other company) made something like what you're describing (Matias 60% but with all 12 tiny Function keys at the top, or anywhere else), I would buy it in a heartbeat. But this goes back to my original question--how many people have such tiny desk spaces that they need to shave off that extra couple of inches from a TKL layout?
Post by: StormyMonday on Thu, 26 January 2017, 03:13:45
Please feel free to post questions.
One of the gentlepeople above made an interesting point about the F-keys. They basically say that any use of the F-keys makes removing them not worth the space saved.The reason I cancelled my order was because I just don't have any patience for keyboard layouts that require me to use Fn combos for often used keys anymore, because they are just not worth the trouble when you need to be productive (I use Function keys all the time when using Photoshop, as well as just in general). I now also think this quest to make keyboards smaller is counterproductive, because ergonomically, once you shrink past TKL layout, ergonomics in relation to muscle memory drops in efficiency, since there are less tactile cues to find keys without looking (such as useful gaps between key clusters), and Fn combos are not ideal. Realistically, just how many people have so tiny of a desk space that they desperately need to shave off size from a TKL keyboard? I'm going to sell off all of my non-TKL keyboards at this point because after years of trying different layouts, none are better than TKL for me.
I think this is a valid point. I don't know how many people are happy without F-keys... But I do know that you are uniquely positioned to add small F-keys to a 60% mechanical keyboard! :) Have you considered another sibling to this and Ergo Pro, with the F-keys on top? I suspect you have. There may even be a prototype image on your computer ;)
To all readers: Has there ever been a poll to compare interest between a regular 60% keyboard and one with F-keys? (Not TKL)
It seems like the closest thing would be 84-key keyboards, but those have the problem of erasing all spaces between clusters, thus harder to hit specific keys with muscle memory/tactile feel alone.
If Matias (or any other company) made something like what you're describing (Matias 60% but with all 12 tiny Function keys at the top, or anywhere else), I would buy it in a heartbeat. But this goes back to my original question--how many people have such tiny desk spaces that they need to shave off that extra couple of inches from a TKL layout?
Perhaps some have limited desk space, but many choose 60% and smaller boards due to portability concerns, as the bulk of today's laptops are equipped with absolutely horrid chicklet keyboards!
I suspect that there is also a growing demand for Bluetooth enabled 60% and 40% keyboards, for those who decide to leave their laptop behind and begin to rely more and more on their tablets and smart phones.
Post by: belac on Thu, 26 January 2017, 07:54:53
Please feel free to post questions.
One of the gentlepeople above made an interesting point about the F-keys. They basically say that any use of the F-keys makes removing them not worth the space saved.The reason I cancelled my order was because I just don't have any patience for keyboard layouts that require me to use Fn combos for often used keys anymore, because they are just not worth the trouble when you need to be productive (I use Function keys all the time when using Photoshop, as well as just in general). I now also think this quest to make keyboards smaller is counterproductive, because ergonomically, once you shrink past TKL layout, ergonomics in relation to muscle memory drops in efficiency, since there are less tactile cues to find keys without looking (such as useful gaps between key clusters), and Fn combos are not ideal. Realistically, just how many people have so tiny of a desk space that they desperately need to shave off size from a TKL keyboard? I'm going to sell off all of my non-TKL keyboards at this point because after years of trying different layouts, none are better than TKL for me.
I think this is a valid point. I don't know how many people are happy without F-keys... But I do know that you are uniquely positioned to add small F-keys to a 60% mechanical keyboard! :) Have you considered another sibling to this and Ergo Pro, with the F-keys on top? I suspect you have. There may even be a prototype image on your computer ;)
To all readers: Has there ever been a poll to compare interest between a regular 60% keyboard and one with F-keys? (Not TKL)
It seems like the closest thing would be 84-key keyboards, but those have the problem of erasing all spaces between clusters, thus harder to hit specific keys with muscle memory/tactile feel alone.
If Matias (or any other company) made something like what you're describing (Matias 60% but with all 12 tiny Function keys at the top, or anywhere else), I would buy it in a heartbeat. But this goes back to my original question--how many people have such tiny desk spaces that they need to shave off that extra couple of inches from a TKL layout?
Perhaps some have limited desk space, but many choose 60% and smaller boards due to portability concerns, as the bulk of today's laptops are equipped with absolutely horrid chicklet keyboards!
I suspect that there is also a growing demand for Bluetooth enabled 60% and 40% keyboards, for those who decide to leave their laptop behind and begin to rely more and more on their tablets and smart phones.
Personally, I use a 60% board (Poker II is current daily driver) for the ergonomics and the aesthetics while portability was never a consideration. I was skeptical about them especially considering my line of work because I rely heavily on keyboard shortcuts for all of the software I use. Thankfully I had the option to try my coworkers' in person, and at first, my skepticism was validated. However, after about a week of using it, I was hooked and there was no going back to a full size or TKL board. In fact, I traded my full size board for his Poker that I'm currently using. That was three years ago. My office mates will still bring by strangers by from other parts of the company to look at my keyboard and talk about how "unusable" it is while joking about taking up donations so that I can afford a board with all the keys. Sometimes though, one of them will watch me work... they see things happening on the screen faster than this tiny keyboard could produce... they hear the sweet subtle sound of cherry clears sheathed in PBT... and then... they look at my hands and see that they barely move... and it clicks with them that something amazing might be happening. I let them borrow it for a week, and all but one has ended up becoming a convert.
Post by: Lunatique on Thu, 26 January 2017, 12:35:53
For many types of work, the navigation cluster is critical, as there's a need to constantly jump up down entire pages, or jump to beginning or end of documents or a line of text, or use the arrow keys. If a keyboard is missing all those important Function and navigation cluster keys just to trim off a couple of inches, it becomes very clunky to use--particularly macros that require combination of keys. A simple CTRL+Home now requires threes keys (CTRL+_Fn+designated Home key). Even just a simple Page Up or Down now requires Fn+Designated Page Up/Down key. When you are using the navigation cluster constantly, you are adding a ridiculous amount of additional key-presses and key combos that you now have to memorize.
And while being able to program keys so that the navigation cluster can be placed at the home row, making it easier to move the cursor around while typing (and for that purpose, I use TouchCursor, which is f-ing awesome), whenever you're not actually typing (such as when using a mouse), key-combos to execute the navigation cluster keys is far less intuitive/speedy than just pressing the keys in a navigation cluster. If I'm browsing web pages or documents, I do not want to constantly have to use some kind of Fn+Designated keys to execute simple navigation like Page Up/Down, Home/End, or Arrow keys. Just pressing on the keys in the navigation cluster is far, far faster/simpler, not to mention they are located right next to the mouse, and I just tap the Page Up/Down keys with my mouse hand's thumb (most people are right-handed)
Whenever I see people saying that once they got used to a 60% keyboard, they actually prefer it, I have to wonder how that's possible considering what I mentioned above.
Post by: Hypersphere on Thu, 26 January 2017, 13:01:34
Post by: belac on Thu, 26 January 2017, 13:13:52
Whenever I see people saying that once they got used to a 60% keyboard, they actually prefer it, I have to wonder how that's possible considering what I mentioned above.
That is the point of what I was saying above. I said exactly the same things you said about them before I tried one for awhile. Most of the scenarios you describe is how I use mine. Almost all of my shortcuts are 4 key presses now, and I prefer it to performing a 3 key press on a standard keyboard most of the time. Without giving it an honest try, there is no way to know. It is really the same as anything else new... if you approach it with the mindset that it won't work for you because it's not just like the thing you're used to, it probably won't. It is like being reluctant to transition from a horse to a car because you were worried the seats would be less comfortable than your saddle. They might be... but you won't know until you try and you might discover something awesome in the process :-)
Post by: Lunatique on Thu, 26 January 2017, 14:05:33
Whenever I see people saying that once they got used to a 60% keyboard, they actually prefer it, I have to wonder how that's possible considering what I mentioned above.
That is the point of what I was saying above. I said exactly the same things you said about them before I tried one for awhile. Most of the scenarios you describe is how I use mine. Almost all of my shortcuts are 4 key presses now, and I prefer it to performing a 3 key press on a standard keyboard most of the time. Without giving it an honest try, there is no way to know. It is really the same as anything else new... if you approach it with the mindset that it won't work for you because it's not just like the thing you're used to, it probably won't. It is like being reluctant to transition from a horse to a car because you were worried the seats would be less comfortable than your saddle. They might be... but you won't know until you try and you might discover something awesome in the process :-)
I have the Leopold FC660C, and it's not even a 60% and I already couldn't stand having to do all those additional key-presses to do what I could do on a TKL with just one key-press. Same thing with any of my laptops that require me to use the Fn+Whatever for commands that I would only need one key-press for on a TKL.
So it's not that I haven't tried--I did, for a couple of years now, and hated it. That is why I'm selling off all of my keyboards that contain less keys than TKL form-factor.
Post by: Hyde on Thu, 26 January 2017, 16:16:42
Whenever I see people saying that once they got used to a 60% keyboard, they actually prefer it, I have to wonder how that's possible considering what I mentioned above.
That is the point of what I was saying above. I said exactly the same things you said about them before I tried one for awhile. Most of the scenarios you describe is how I use mine. Almost all of my shortcuts are 4 key presses now, and I prefer it to performing a 3 key press on a standard keyboard most of the time. Without giving it an honest try, there is no way to know. It is really the same as anything else new... if you approach it with the mindset that it won't work for you because it's not just like the thing you're used to, it probably won't. It is like being reluctant to transition from a horse to a car because you were worried the seats would be less comfortable than your saddle. They might be... but you won't know until you try and you might discover something awesome in the process :-)
I have the Leopold FC660C, and it's not even a 60% and I already couldn't stand having to do all those additional key-presses to do what I could do on a TKL with just one key-press. Same thing with any of my laptops that require me to use the Fn+Whatever for commands that I would only need one key-press for on a TKL.
So it's not that I haven't tried--I did, for a couple of years now, and hated it. That is why I'm selling off all of my keyboards that contain less keys than TKL form-factor.
Same boat here, I gave my Poker 2 a solid one year of use before it eventually fall to my least used keyboard now.
I only use full size keyboard now (I use arrow key, 6 pack cluster, and number pad A LOT).
This is what I tell people these days, usage dictates form factor. :P
Post by: Lunatique on Thu, 26 January 2017, 16:22:59
Whenever I see people saying that once they got used to a 60% keyboard, they actually prefer it, I have to wonder how that's possible considering what I mentioned above.
That is the point of what I was saying above. I said exactly the same things you said about them before I tried one for awhile. Most of the scenarios you describe is how I use mine. Almost all of my shortcuts are 4 key presses now, and I prefer it to performing a 3 key press on a standard keyboard most of the time. Without giving it an honest try, there is no way to know. It is really the same as anything else new... if you approach it with the mindset that it won't work for you because it's not just like the thing you're used to, it probably won't. It is like being reluctant to transition from a horse to a car because you were worried the seats would be less comfortable than your saddle. They might be... but you won't know until you try and you might discover something awesome in the process :-)
I have the Leopold FC660C, and it's not even a 60% and I already couldn't stand having to do all those additional key-presses to do what I could do on a TKL with just one key-press. Same thing with any of my laptops that require me to use the Fn+Whatever for commands that I would only need one key-press for on a TKL.
So it's not that I haven't tried--I did, for a couple of years now, and hated it. That is why I'm selling off all of my keyboards that contain less keys than TKL form-factor.
Same boat here, I gave my Poker 2 a solid one year of use before it eventually fall to my least used keyboard now.
I only use full size keyboard now (I use arrow key, 6 pack cluster, and number pad A LOT).
This is what I tell people these days, usage dictates form factor. :P
I can't use full-sized keyboards unless they are left-handed versions, which is ironic, because the default keyboard layout is used by overwhelming majority of people, who happens to also be right-handed, yet its layout is so unfriendly to right-handed people when using a mouse. The keyboard's typing center is pushed to the left by the mouse, and that is a huge problem. This is why I have to use TKL and then add a standalone numpad to the left side.
Post by: belac on Thu, 26 January 2017, 16:31:13
This is what I tell people these days, usage dictates form factor.
Amen to that! If I had to type a lot of numbers, I would have to go back to a fullsize or at least add a numpad. Although, it is interesting that you and I have the same nav cluster needs, yet we find opposite layouts more comfortable and efficient. I use my Poker at work and a TKL at home, and I always miss something about my Poker while at home, but I never miss my TKL at work. This is why I think it is important for everyone to try different things for themselves. We're all different and deserve to have what works best for us. I'm looking forward to this Matias 60 board because I think it will the perfect one for me... but if not, it's still fun to try new things.
Post by: babel on Sun, 23 April 2017, 15:10:12
It seems like the closest thing would be 84-key keyboards, but those have the problem of erasing all spaces between clusters, thus harder to hit specific keys with muscle memory/tactile feel alone.
If Matias (or any other company) made something like what you're describing (Matias 60% but with all 12 tiny Function keys at the top, or anywhere else), I would buy it in a heartbeat. But this goes back to my original question--how many people have such tiny desk spaces that they need to shave off that extra couple of inches from a TKL layout?
I'm there, but please keep the function keys at or near the top. Putting anything to the right or left of the Return or Cap-Locks (respectively) messes up people who write and type simultaneously. That is my sole reason for going 60%. I have a HHKB instead of a Leopold for this reason. Leopold extends too far for my dominant hand. Every little bit counts.
Edit: Found a kickstarter today with one. [https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/lofree-typewriter-inspired-mechanical-keyboard-design-technology#/comments](lofree-typewriter). While I was positive I would get one yesterday, only having gateron blue (I'm used to hhkb topre) and the odd shape of the keys is throwing me off. What do people think of this? /u/Lunatique /u/Luminair ?
Post by: Elrick on Wed, 26 April 2017, 06:26:49
Haven't seen it produced, so I was wondering if this is another type of 'vapour-ware' proposal gone nowhere?
Post by: zutroy on Wed, 26 April 2017, 08:08:01
Is this available as of yet?
Haven't seen it produced, so I was wondering if this is another type of 'vapour-ware' proposal gone nowhere?
https://matias.store/products/60-keyboard
Post by: Matias on Wed, 26 April 2017, 08:47:37
This project is definitely still on. I'm in China now and it's one of the things we're working on this trip. Latest update below...
The main thing that delayed this GB (which should have been finished long ago) was our commitment to including Black PBT caps with White legends. That turned an otherwise straightward build into an odyssey that's still ongoing. I'm happy to report that we've solved this problem -- as you can see in the photo below. These are our latest test samples.
[attachimg=1]
Black looks great but the white caps are lasering a little too black. Ideally they would laser to grey. We hope to have this fixed soon.
My original intention was to use ALPS-style stabilizer clips on the mounting plate, and a balance bar that would fit both Cherry and ALPS. That's what you see in the original photos.
However, after a bunch of prototyping, it's clear that this is not the best approach -- so we are switching to using Costar-style stabilizer clips for both ALPS and Cherry. We've designed and tooled up a Cherry stab hook that fits onto ALPS caps, and are already using it for spacebars on our existing products. These will be used for all the modifiers on the 60% keyboard.
[attachimg=2]
Because of this change, there will be different balance bars for Cherry vs. ALPS, but the mounting clips will be the same, so it's just a small difference.
This change also makes it easier to swap out ALPS switches for Cherry, and vice-versa. We're very excited about the possibilities.
I know this GB has gone glacially slow. For anyone who is not prepared to wait it out, we are happy to offer refunds.
Thanks for your support...
Post by: dante on Wed, 26 April 2017, 08:54:53
Post by: Matias on Wed, 26 April 2017, 09:24:12
Matias: Can you take a photo comparing the thickness of the ABS sets to the PBT?
Yes, see below...
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=2]
Post by: menuhin on Wed, 26 April 2017, 11:53:32
I hope there is a split backspace option, so that the 2u backspace key can become two 1u keys ('DIY' or factory), like in the HHKB and Sun Type 5c layout.
This is a major certain when I consider if I want to get a keyboard, and I believe many of the HHKB enthusiasts who are lurking checking out the Alps and Matias switches are feeling the same.
Post by: Elrick on Wed, 26 April 2017, 20:33:32
This project is definitely still on. I'm in China now and it's one of the things we're working on this trip. Latest update below...
The main thing that delayed this GB (which should have been finished long ago) was our commitment to including Black PBT caps with White legends. That turned an otherwise straightward build into an odyssey that's still ongoing. I'm happy to report that we've solved this problem -- as you can see in the photo below. These are our latest test samples.Black looks great but the white caps are lasering a little too black. Ideally they would laser to grey. We hope to have this fixed soon.
Good to see you are still working on this BUT why oh why, do you still persist with Lasering on PBT?
For Chryst Sakes, haven't you heard of Dye-sublimation at all?
You can still provide Lasering for the Black sets but use Dye-subs for the White sets and watch the orders flood in. You've been here on Geekhack for years and no doubt you've seen the craze involving PBT key-caps with dye-subs sell out far quicker than than any lame laser key-cap sets.
PLEASE wake up and smell your coffee here, if you want to make a unique Matias Keyboard start using PBT dye subs and really make it a unique design millions would want to own around the globe.
If I hear another response about lasered key-caps being popular or most wanted here on Geekhack, I'll go Postal on all of you lot in an instant without remorse or any sympathy >:D .
No one should be using Lasered junk anymore because this is after all Geekhack Central, the home of discerning owners of key-caps and keyboards that deserve respect and not to be abused with such low brow tedium, known as Lasered Key-cap sets, which can be bought easily off Flebay for next to nothing.
Keep the mundane and boring out there on Flebay but please, bring the Quality and Unique here so that all of us can own something rare and distinctive.
Post by: digi on Wed, 26 April 2017, 20:58:18
Post by: Delirious on Wed, 26 April 2017, 22:46:13
This project is definitely still on. I'm in China now and it's one of the things we're working on this trip. Latest update below...
The main thing that delayed this GB (which should have been finished long ago) was our commitment to including Black PBT caps with White legends. That turned an otherwise straightward build into an odyssey that's still ongoing. I'm happy to report that we've solved this problem -- as you can see in the photo below. These are our latest test samples.Black looks great but the white caps are lasering a little too black. Ideally they would laser to grey. We hope to have this fixed soon.
Good to see you are still working on this BUT why oh why, do you still persist with Lasering on PBT?
For Chryst Sakes, haven't you heard of Dye-sublimation at all?
You can still provide Lasering for the Black sets but use Dye-subs for the White sets and watch the orders flood in. You've been here on Geekhack for years and no doubt you've seen the craze involving PBT key-caps with dye-subs sell out far quicker than than any lame laser key-cap sets.
PLEASE wake up and smell your coffee here, if you want to make a unique Matias Keyboard start using PBT dye subs and really make it a unique design millions would want to own around the globe.
If I hear another response about lasered key-caps being popular or most wanted here on Geekhack, I'll go Postal on all of you lot in an instant without remorse or any sympathy >:D .
No one should be using Lasered junk anymore because this is after all Geekhack Central, the home of discerning owners of key-caps and keyboards that deserve respect and not to be abused with such low brow tedium, known as Lasered Key-cap sets, which can be bought easily off Flebay for next to nothing.
Keep the mundane and boring out there on Flebay but please, bring the Quality and Unique here so that all of us can own something rare and distinctive.
You realize this is Matias you're talking about right? If the track record still holds true, Edgar is relentless and unwavering about his vision. Community's inputs barely matter during the birth of a new project, he might come about and make minor changes during later stages; but all and all Edgar is absolute. We all just need to take a chill pill and embrace this project in 2018.
Post by: dante on Thu, 27 April 2017, 11:41:21
You realize this is Matias you're talking about right? If the track record still holds true, Edgar is relentless and unwavering about his vision. Community's inputs barely matter during the birth of a new project, he might come about and make minor changes during later stages; but all and all Edgar is absolute. We all just need to take a chill pill and embrace this project in 2018.
For the Black caps he could go with dyesub black on black in the style of Topre (and their MX imitators.) He could also do side printed legends.
I know Matias has stated multiple times that a MX stem built into a Alps switch is impossible but I think he needs a fresh set of eyes on the problem. If he can just get this solved all of these problems will go away.
Post by: Elrick on Thu, 27 April 2017, 19:14:34
For the Black caps he could go with dyesub black on black in the style of Topre (and their MX imitators.) He could also do side printed legends.
EXACTLY, poor Edgar is living in the 1990's when lasering was all that was available, time for him to jump into the Doctor's Tardis and visit 2017, 2018 and see the requirement for Dye-sublimation which everyone wants these days.
Also don't forget that old keyboards are selling on Flebay for a minimum of $1000USD today all because they have PBT dye-subs applied to their key-caps (ancient Made in USA -ALPs-Dells). Trust me, 60 years from now a Matias 60% keyboard will never achieve that worthy status UNLESS he applies dye-sublimation, then watch his creation climb over $1000+ easily.
Remember, don't use techniques in the past which were CHEAP and nasty, go for dye-sublimation and achieve unending distinction, forever more.......
Post by: Matias on Thu, 08 June 2017, 20:02:01
I've received the balance bar samples I mentioned in one of my previous posts, and the results are good!
In the photos...
- Backspace key is a Cherry keycap with Costar stabs + 2u balance bar for Cherry.
- Return key is a Signature Plastics ALPS keycap with Costar stabs + (new) 2u balance bar for ALPS.
- Funny symbols key is one of our 2.5u PBT caps with Costar stabs on an ALPS stab mount + (new) 2.5u balance bar for ALPS.
- Shift key is an OEM ALPS keycap with Cherry stabs on an ALPS stab mount + (new) 2.75u balance bar for ALPS.
It's a little complicated but everything works. :-)
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
Post by: Elrick on Mon, 12 June 2017, 19:30:05
It's a little complicated but everything works. :-)
- Backspace key is a Cherry keycap with Costar stabs + 2u balance bar for Cherry.
- Return key is a Signature Plastics ALPS keycap with Costar stabs + (new) 2u balance bar for ALPS.
- Funny symbols key is one of our 2.5u PBT caps with Costar stabs on an ALPS stab mount + (new) 2.5u balance bar for ALPS.
- Shift key is an OEM ALPS keycap with Cherry stabs on an ALPS stab mount + (new) 2.75u balance bar for ALPS.
There you have it Edgar, go for SP's ALPs keys, get them to make special keys to fit your specific keyboard then offer it too the masses that appreciate true ALPs supremacy 8) .
Post by: jnav on Mon, 31 July 2017, 22:33:08
Post by: Meyvn on Thu, 03 August 2017, 09:56:05
Hi Matias, any updates? :D
The ordering page's expected dates have been pushed back another ~6 months or so. No specific reason listed, but it sounds like there has been another major setback.
Post by: Matias on Fri, 11 August 2017, 12:32:34
I got back from China last week, and things are moving along...
Black PBT is officially signed off. The keys feel REALLY nice to the touch. We'll be ordering the PBT material before the end of the month.
We're colour matching White PBT now. That will probably take another month or two.
Once White PBT is approved, we'll order that material and start doing samples in shades of Gray -- probably 2 shades of Gray to start. This will allow Dolch-style set combinations.
I posted a (somewhat crappy [sorry]) photo of Gray samples in the Keycap thread...
https://geekhack.org/?topic=45483.msg2474012#msg2474012
I want to do some more testing of the new Balance bar & Stabilizer spacing, before finalizing that.
Let me know if there are any questions. Thanks everyone...
Post by: Meyvn on Sun, 27 August 2017, 18:30:26
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Meyvn on Mon, 18 September 2017, 20:54:33
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: zombimuncha on Thu, 21 September 2017, 06:14:55
I got back from China last week, and things are moving along...
Black PBT is officially signed off. The keys feel REALLY nice to the touch. We'll be ordering the PBT material before the end of the month.
We're colour matching White PBT now. That will probably take another month or two.
Once White PBT is approved, we'll order that material and start doing samples in shades of Gray -- probably 2 shades of Gray to start. This will allow Dolch-style set combinations.
I posted a (somewhat crappy [sorry]) photo of Gray samples in the Keycap thread...https://geekhack.org/?topic=45483.msg2474012#msg2474012
I want to do some more testing of the new Balance bar & Stabilizer spacing, before finalizing that.
Let me know if there are any questions. Thanks everyone...
These balance bars - can I buy them? Now? Using "Armor Clip Anchors" as currency?
Post by: euphxenos on Wed, 03 January 2018, 18:48:21
"...there is no specific end date in mind to finish engineering, let alone production. It will ship when design and production is completed. It could be a few months from now, or a couple of years from now."
Post by: Matias on Wed, 03 January 2018, 19:42:03
It looks like the date posted on the Matias site changed again. Now it says this (from https://matias.store/products/60-keyboard):
"...there is no specific end date in mind to finish engineering, let alone production. It will ship when design and production is completed. It could be a few months from now, or a couple of years from now."
Sorry for the hyperbolic language -- I didn't write it. It will be updated soon.
My previous comments on this project still stand.
I can also give you an update on the PBT keycaps component of the keyboard...
The Black PBT keycaps are in production now. I expect to approve the White PBT samples next week.
We will be doing shades of gray next -- to allow for Dolch sets.
Post by: pixelpusher on Wed, 03 January 2018, 20:32:13
It looks like the date posted on the Matias site changed again. Now it says this (from https://matias.store/products/60-keyboard):
"...there is no specific end date in mind to finish engineering, let alone production. It will ship when design and production is completed. It could be a few months from now, or a couple of years from now."
Sorry for the hyperbolic language -- I didn't write it. It will be updated soon.
My previous comments on this project still stand.
I can also give you an update on the PBT keycaps component of the keyboard...
The Black PBT keycaps are in production now. I expect to approve the White PBT samples next week.
We will be doing shades of gray next -- to allow for Dolch sets.
Looking forward to it.
Post by: jnav on Fri, 05 January 2018, 21:42:17
It looks like the date posted on the Matias site changed again. Now it says this (from https://matias.store/products/60-keyboard):
"...there is no specific end date in mind to finish engineering, let alone production. It will ship when design and production is completed. It could be a few months from now, or a couple of years from now."
Sorry for the hyperbolic language -- I didn't write it. It will be updated soon.
My previous comments on this project still stand.
I can also give you an update on the PBT keycaps component of the keyboard...
The Black PBT keycaps are in production now. I expect to approve the White PBT samples next week.
We will be doing shades of gray next -- to allow for Dolch sets.
Looking forward to it.
Hooray! :)
Post by: euphxenos on Sat, 03 March 2018, 00:44:35
It looks like the date posted on the Matias site changed again. Now it says this (from https://matias.store/products/60-keyboard):
"...there is no specific end date in mind to finish engineering, let alone production. It will ship when design and production is completed. It could be a few months from now, or a couple of years from now."
Sorry for the hyperbolic language -- I didn't write it. It will be updated soon.
My previous comments on this project still stand.
I can also give you an update on the PBT keycaps component of the keyboard...
The Black PBT keycaps are in production now. I expect to approve the White PBT samples next week.
We will be doing shades of gray next -- to allow for Dolch sets.
In the last update, black PBT keycaps were already in production. How's that going? Do you have any idea when we'll be able to buy them? Can you share what the kits will look like? I'm also curious about how things are going with the keyboard and other keycap colors, if you have any updates.
Post by: Matias on Wed, 14 March 2018, 19:00:45
In the last update, black PBT keycaps were already in production. How's that going? Do you have any idea when we'll be able to buy them? Can you share what the kits will look like? I'm also curious about how things are going with the keyboard and other keycap colors, if you have any updates.
Thanks for your questions...
I'm hoping to have the keyboard done by the end of the year.
Black PBT is in production now -- China is just ramping up again after Chinese New Year. The factory received the PBT material prior to CNY, but weren't able to finish production before their holidays started.
We're still colour matching White PBT. No schedule on that one until we get the colour right.
To support popular colour combinations, we plan to have each keyset composed of 2 subsets (which will be available separately): a Main Set and a Mod Set...
The Main Set is dominated by alphanumerics, plus other keys that share the same colour.
The Mod Set includes all modifier keys, plus additional keys of the same colour.
There are also a few duplicate keys that appear in both sets, to satisfy varying tastes. This approach offers quite a bit of flexibility. For example, you could combine a Black Mod Set with a White Main Set, or get both Main and Mod Sets in Black for all Black keys, etc.
Some keys will have duplicates in multiple sizes (e.g., 1.25u and 1.5u for Ctrl, etc.).
A rough list (by row) is shown below...
Main Set
F1-F4 F9-F12 NumLock 3 volume keys F16-F18 Eject 4 pairing keys
`~ 1-0 -_ =+ Insert/Fn Home PgUp
Q-P [{ ]} \| Delete End PgDown Num7-9
A-L ;: '" \| R2 Num4-6
Z-M ,< .> /? 1 Arrow key Num1-3
Spacebar 3 Arrow keys NumZero NumDot
Mod Set
Esc F5-F8 Print Screen/F13 Scroll Lock/F14 Pause/F15 Delete
`~ Backspace Insert Home PgUp NumLock/Clear/Tab = / * -
Tab W \| Delete End PgDown -
2row-Enter 2row-Num+
CapsLock A S D Return +
L-Shift R-Shift 1 Arrow key
2row-NumEnter
L-Ctrl L-Win/Option L-Alt/Command Spacebar R-Alt/Command R-Win/Option Menu/Fn R-Ctrl 3 Arrow keys
Post by: pixelpusher on Wed, 14 March 2018, 21:49:52
Post by: Luminair on Thu, 15 March 2018, 16:13:47
Post by: menuhin on Thu, 15 March 2018, 16:57:11
Will definitely get 2+ sets.
Post by: Matias on Fri, 16 March 2018, 02:10:34
Hmm, I don’t see any non-standard key sizes there. I was at least hoping for a split right shift accommodation which seems quite popular lately. 1.75u shift key and a 1u Fn or blank would be nice to see
It's just a rough list (without size details). The actual sets will include all popular sizes.
We use 1.75u shift and 1u Fn on our own keyboards, so those would definitely be included.
Post by: pixelpusher on Fri, 16 March 2018, 08:24:55
Thanks for the additional comments / questions...Hmm, I don’t see any non-standard key sizes there. I was at least hoping for a split right shift accommodation which seems quite popular lately. 1.75u shift key and a 1u Fn or blank would be nice to see
It's just a rough list (without size details). The actual sets will include all popular sizes.
We use 1.75u shift and 1u Fn on our own keyboards, so those would definitely be included.
Good to hear. I’m sitting on a decent pile of alps and Matias switches waiting for good keycap solutions. I a big fan of the newly tooled clicky as well as the tactile ones.
Post by: Blaise170 on Mon, 26 March 2018, 13:54:48
Post by: euphxenos on Thu, 04 October 2018, 21:24:02
Has there been any progress on this at all this year? There were a couple of posts earlier this year stating that the black keycaps had gone into production. Did any actually get produced? I still don't see PBT keycap sets listed on your web site. Aside from the keycaps, has there been any progress at all on the keyboard this year?
Post by: Matias on Fri, 05 October 2018, 05:36:27
Will the PBT caps support your older models? I am currently using a Laptop Pro at work and would like to move to PBT.
Yes, all models will be supported, with the exception of the spacebar. The Laptop Pro will be transitioning to a 5u spacebar.
Has there been any progress on this at all this year? There were a couple of posts earlier this year stating that the black keycaps had gone into production. Did any actually get produced? I still don't see PBT keycap sets listed on your web site. Aside from the keycaps, has there been any progress at all on the keyboard this year?
Yes, there's been quite a bit of progress on the keyboard and but few stalls on the keycaps...
The aluminum case and PCB are essentially done, after a few iterations during my last trip to China (a few months ago). The keycap jig is also done.
Our injection vendor had some problems getting the PBT a consistent shade of black. We had to coordinate with the material vendor to get it resolved. I'm going again next month, to (hopefully) finalize things so keycap production can start. I'm sorry this has gone on so long. We developed a new process and basically hit every pothole on the road, before getting to the finished product. I'm very happy with the final result, but wish it hadn't taken so long.
Let me know if you have any other questions...
Post by: stbtrax on Tue, 06 November 2018, 00:55:03
Thanks!
Post by: equalunique on Mon, 19 November 2018, 23:13:54
Thank you for the update. Your switches are wonderful & i only wish it were easier to source keycaps for non-standard layouts (hhkb, ergo/ortho, etc.).Will the PBT caps support your older models? I am currently using a Laptop Pro at work and would like to move to PBT.
Yes, all models will be supported, with the exception of the spacebar. The Laptop Pro will be transitioning to a 5u spacebar.Has there been any progress on this at all this year? There were a couple of posts earlier this year stating that the black keycaps had gone into production. Did any actually get produced? I still don't see PBT keycap sets listed on your web site. Aside from the keycaps, has there been any progress at all on the keyboard this year?
Yes, there's been quite a bit of progress on the keyboard and but few stalls on the keycaps...
The aluminum case and PCB are essentially done, after a few iterations during my last trip to China (a few months ago). The keycap jig is also done.
Our injection vendor had some problems getting the PBT a consistent shade of black. We had to coordinate with the material vendor to get it resolved. I'm going again next month, to (hopefully) finalize things so keycap production can start. I'm sorry this has gone on so long. We developed a new process and basically hit every pothole on the road, before getting to the finished product. I'm very happy with the final result, but wish it hadn't taken so long.
Let me know if you have any other questions...
Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk
Post by: Matias on Tue, 20 November 2018, 02:14:02
Has there been any progress on this at all this year? There were a couple of posts earlier this year stating that the black keycaps had gone into production. Did any actually get produced? I still don't see PBT keycap sets listed on your web site. Aside from the keycaps, has there been any progress at all on the keyboard this year?
Yes, there's been quite a bit of progress on the keyboard and but few stalls on the keycaps...
The aluminum case and PCB are essentially done, after a few iterations during my last trip to China (a few months ago). The keycap jig is also done.
Our injection vendor had some problems getting the PBT a consistent shade of black. We had to coordinate with the material vendor to get it resolved. I'm going again next month, to (hopefully) finalize things so keycap production can start. I'm sorry this has gone on so long. We developed a new process and basically hit every pothole on the road, before getting to the finished product. I'm very happy with the final result, but wish it hadn't taken so long.
Let me know if you have any other questions...
Thank you for the update. Your switches are wonderful & i only wish it were easier to source keycaps for non-standard layouts (hhkb, ergo/ortho, etc.).
Thank you. We'll be supporting most (if not all) non-standard layouts with the new keysets.
I'm in China now (got here today) and hope to finalize the PBT production during this trip. We developed a new process for lasering black PBT that produces very good results, with no noticeable wear over long time periods. Whenever you have a new process, there area always lots of little details to work out, and production schedules can (do) easily slip, but it's very close to being finished.
When are you hoping to do production ramp and what's the current estimate for shipping for new orders?
Thanks!
Are you asking about the keyboard or the keycaps?
Post by: pixelpusher on Tue, 20 November 2018, 11:47:43
Has there been any progress on this at all this year? There were a couple of posts earlier this year stating that the black keycaps had gone into production. Did any actually get produced? I still don't see PBT keycap sets listed on your web site. Aside from the keycaps, has there been any progress at all on the keyboard this year?
Yes, there's been quite a bit of progress on the keyboard and but few stalls on the keycaps...
The aluminum case and PCB are essentially done, after a few iterations during my last trip to China (a few months ago). The keycap jig is also done.
Our injection vendor had some problems getting the PBT a consistent shade of black. We had to coordinate with the material vendor to get it resolved. I'm going again next month, to (hopefully) finalize things so keycap production can start. I'm sorry this has gone on so long. We developed a new process and basically hit every pothole on the road, before getting to the finished product. I'm very happy with the final result, but wish it hadn't taken so long.
Let me know if you have any other questions...
Thank you for the update. Your switches are wonderful & i only wish it were easier to source keycaps for non-standard layouts (hhkb, ergo/ortho, etc.).
Thank you. We'll be supporting most (if not all) non-standard layouts with the new keysets.
I'm in China now (got here today) and hope to finalize the PBT production during this trip. We developed a new process for lasering black PBT that produces very good results, with no noticeable wear over long time periods. Whenever you have a new process, there area always lots of little details to work out, and production schedules can (do) easily slip, but it's very close to being finished.When are you hoping to do production ramp and what's the current estimate for shipping for new orders?
Thanks!
Are you asking about the keyboard or the keycaps?
Thank you for the update. A lot of us anxiously awaiting new alps compatible caps :)
Post by: menuhin on Tue, 20 November 2018, 14:02:12
Quote
...it's very close to being finished...I know it's going to be only around 2 more years to go!
By the way, most of the hobbyists here are not so concerned about "durable" laser-printed PBT caps. Perhaps laser-etching on PBT can be nice too?
My concern is more of the quality control of PBT space bars - how would Matias solve the space warping problem?
Also, there are a lot more space bar sizes nowadays besides 6u, 6.25u, and 7u
Post by: stbtrax on Tue, 27 November 2018, 00:30:03
When are you hoping to do production ramp and what's the current estimate for shipping for new orders?
Thanks!
Are you asking about the keyboard or the keycaps?
Mainly the keyboard, but do you have current estimates for either?
Thanks
Post by: no, the other guy on Sat, 22 December 2018, 13:55:38
Quote
For the UK, German, or Nordic models, please order from our UK/Europe distributors "The Keyboard Company".
and "The Keyboard Company" only has the USA model for Matias Click.
Post by: Hypersphere on Sun, 23 December 2018, 14:52:56
It would be nice if various colors (e.g., red, green, blue, light blue) were available in addition to black or white, although blank black caps would suffice for me.
Post by: abrahamstechnology on Sun, 06 January 2019, 16:11:30
Post by: senter on Mon, 21 January 2019, 09:14:11
I'm in China now (got here today) and hope to finalize the PBT production during this trip. We developed a new process for lasering black PBT that produces very good results, with no noticeable wear over long time periods. Whenever you have a new process, there area always lots of little details to work out, and production schedules can (do) easily slip, but it's very close to being finished.
Any updates on this?
Post by: stbtrax on Tue, 22 January 2019, 11:56:32
Post by: Matias on Wed, 23 January 2019, 00:54:25
Could you talk about what is taking the project so long out of curiosity? (I work in manf/eng) Are you having funding issues or was something not working properly? 5 years seems like a bit of a stretch for this scope of project
I mentioned earlier that we developed a new material process for PBT that took a long time to iron out.
I go to China approx. every 3 months, so progress happens when I'm there, and slows when I return. This approach works well for developing hardware, but not so well for developing new materials (hence the long delay).
We also have some new tech that is being integrated into this project, but has not been announced yet, so I can't elaborate further. That new tech has been in development for almost 2 years, and is nearly done.
Finally, we've designed some new metal components that make it easier to build custom layouts. This 60% keyboard will be the first one to use those metal parts, and will be a reference design for other projects that wish to use them.
I know all of the above sounds vague, but I think you'll find the wait was worth it, once you see what we've made.
Internally, we've been saying that it's like you bought a Volkswagen but then find that we shipped you a Tesla.
I hope that helps.
Post by: DasGnome on Wed, 23 January 2019, 05:05:15
But shoutout to Matias for at least checking the sane Geekhack thread for 5 years. This particular keyboard isn't for me, but I can't wait to see other product advancements from this.
Post by: mwahlig on Fri, 25 January 2019, 01:40:28
Post by: Matias on Mon, 28 January 2019, 03:02:51
But shoutout to Matias for at least checking the sane Geekhack thread for 5 years. This particular keyboard isn't for me, but I can't wait to see other product advancements from this.
Thanks! :-)
Will the planck/preonic compatible keycap sets you have available on your store currently get updated to be PBT keycaps? I would love some blank PBT alps keycaps for my planck :)
PBT will be available too.
Post by: Luminair on Thu, 21 February 2019, 05:06:25
Could you talk about what is taking the project so long out of curiosity? (I work in manf/eng) Are you having funding issues or was something not working properly? 5 years seems like a bit of a stretch for this scope of project
I mentioned earlier that we developed a new material process for PBT that took a long time to iron out.
I go to China approx. every 3 months, so progress happens when I'm there, and slows when I return. This approach works well for developing hardware, but not so well for developing new materials (hence the long delay).
We also have some new tech that is being integrated into this project, but has not been announced yet, so I can't elaborate further. That new tech has been in development for almost 2 years, and is nearly done.
Finally, we've designed some new metal components that make it easier to build custom layouts. This 60% keyboard will be the first one to use those metal parts, and will be a reference design for other projects that wish to use them.
I know all of the above sounds vague, but I think you'll find the wait was worth it, once you see what we've made.
Internally, we've been saying that it's like you bought a Volkswagen but then find that we shipped you a Tesla.
I hope that helps.
I would love the 60% with standard-spaced mini f-keys on top! Keep up the good work!
Post by: Matias on Fri, 22 February 2019, 04:11:26
I would love the 60% with standard-spaced mini f-keys on top! Keep up the good work!
Thank you! Will keep it in mind...
Post by: _GMK_ on Fri, 22 February 2019, 05:51:41
Post by: abrahamstechnology on Fri, 22 February 2019, 09:57:25
Post by: macclack on Fri, 22 February 2019, 23:29:06
Can you release some Matias switches with non-polycarbonate housings and the traditional black plastic Alps switches had? The black plastic sounds much better.I would love to see this too. My understanding is that the point of the transparent housing is mainly so light will shine through for backlighting. Other than lock lights, I haven't seen a Matias or KBParadise keyboard that uses backlighting.
Post by: Matias on Mon, 25 February 2019, 04:54:16
Can you release some Matias switches with non-polycarbonate housings and the traditional black plastic Alps switches had? The black plastic sounds much better.I would love to see this too. My understanding is that the point of the transparent housing is mainly so light will shine through for backlighting. Other than lock lights, I haven't seen a Matias or KBParadise keyboard that uses backlighting.
I always thought the original black ABS ones sounded more hollow (and louder).
Post by: macclack on Tue, 26 February 2019, 10:50:16
I always thought the original black ABS ones sounded more hollow (and louder).
Alps switches (particularly SKCM variants) are generally lauded for sound. My guess is the housing has something to do with it.
Post by: equalunique on Tue, 26 February 2019, 16:51:19
My understanding is that the point of the transparent housing is mainly so light will shine through for backlighting. Other than lock lights, I haven't seen a Matias or KBParadise keyboard that uses backlighting.
[/quote]
One of these days, I will complete my HeliDox kits and have a pair of split ergo boards sporting Matias switches & per-key RGB lighting. I feel like it has to be done because those transparent housings are perfect for RGB but no keyboards AFAIK have this combo.
Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk
Post by: mwahlig on Fri, 31 May 2019, 01:04:44
Any idea when these might be available? I realize this is a very old thread, but I could definitely use some PBT matias/alps blank keycaps.Will the planck/preonic compatible keycap sets you have available on your store currently get updated to be PBT keycaps? I would love some blank PBT alps keycaps for my planck :)
PBT will be available too.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Matias on Fri, 31 May 2019, 01:11:23
Any idea when these might be available? I realize this is a very old thread, but I could definitely use some PBT matias/alps blank keycaps.Will the planck/preonic compatible keycap sets you have available on your store currently get updated to be PBT keycaps? I would love some blank PBT alps keycaps for my planck :)
PBT will be available too.
Current best estimate is around September.
We already made one small shipment to an OEM customer, and we expect to continue production by around Sept.
I'm going to China again in June.
Post by: mwahlig on Fri, 31 May 2019, 01:16:02
Awesome, good to hear! Thanks for the super fast reply too!Any idea when these might be available? I realize this is a very old thread, but I could definitely use some PBT matias/alps blank keycaps.Will the planck/preonic compatible keycap sets you have available on your store currently get updated to be PBT keycaps? I would love some blank PBT alps keycaps for my planck :)
PBT will be available too.
Current best estimate is around September.
We already made one small shipment to an OEM customer, and we expect to continue production by around Sept.
I'm going to China again in June.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Matias on Fri, 31 May 2019, 01:22:45
Any idea when these might be available? I realize this is a very old thread, but I could definitely use some PBT matias/alps blank keycaps.
Current best estimate is around September.
We already made one small shipment to an OEM customer, and we expect to continue production by around Sept.
I'm going to China again in June.
Awesome, good to hear! Thanks for the super fast reply too!
No problem... just lucky I happened to be checking email.
Post by: macclack on Tue, 08 October 2019, 22:15:58
Post by: Matias on Thu, 10 October 2019, 02:56:06
So... here we are in October. Any updates?
I'm leaving for China again on Sunday, and keycaps are high on the agenda for the trip.
We were supposed to ramp up production on the last trip, but ran out of time. Specifically, the samples we got weren't at the level of quality that I felt comfortable approving, so I nixed the production run. It's very frustrating, given that the previous samples were perfect.
I'm 80% confident we'll be able to finish them this trip.
Post by: euphxenos on Thu, 10 October 2019, 12:32:31
So... here we are in October. Any updates?
I'm leaving for China again on Sunday, and keycaps are high on the agenda for the trip.
We were supposed to ramp up production on the last trip, but ran out of time. Specifically, the samples we got weren't at the level of quality that I felt comfortable approving, so I nixed the production run. It's very frustrating, given that the previous samples were perfect.
I'm 80% confident we'll be able to finish them this trip.
What about the rest of the keyboard? Is it just waiting for keycaps, or is the rest of it still years away from being done?
Post by: commandlinedesign on Fri, 13 December 2019, 20:43:58
So... here we are in October. Any updates?
I'm leaving for China again on Sunday, and keycaps are high on the agenda for the trip.
We were supposed to ramp up production on the last trip, but ran out of time. Specifically, the samples we got weren't at the level of quality that I felt comfortable approving, so I nixed the production run. It's very frustrating, given that the previous samples were perfect.
I'm 80% confident we'll be able to finish them this trip.
Any updates from your latest trip? 2019 has come and gone without even a single progress photo. Please take a few moments to update us, given that we have paid in advance and been more than patient for the past 5+ years.
Post by: macclack on Fri, 13 December 2019, 22:25:14
Post by: Matias on Sun, 15 December 2019, 11:09:48
Any updates from your latest trip? 2019 has come and gone without even a single progress photo. Please take a few moments to update us, given that we have paid in advance and been more than patient for the past 5+ years.
Very true...
BTW, sorry for the delayed reply. I just got back and am still working off the jet lag.
I think we finally have the keycap situation worked out -- see attached photo. It's not quite as white in real life, but it's close. The samples passed the scratch tests and alcohol test. We're doing a complete set next.
Also, we now have have programmable firmware, so the 60% will be programmable. I'm still thinking how best to do it, but probably will be via the Fn key.
[attachimg=1]
Post by: equalunique on Sun, 15 December 2019, 20:59:03
Sent from my Ono-Sendai Cyberspace 7 using Tapatalk
Post by: E3E on Mon, 16 December 2019, 02:05:08
Very true...
BTW, sorry for the delayed reply. I just got back and am still working off the jet lag.
I think we finally have the keycap situation worked out -- see attached photo. It's not quite as white in real life, but it's close. The samples passed the scratch tests and alcohol test. We're doing a complete set next.
Also, we now have have programmable firmware, so the 60% will be programmable. I'm still thinking how best to do it, but probably will be via the Fn key.
Post by: Matias on Mon, 16 December 2019, 06:43:13
the alignment is very good :)
Yeah, sorry about that, they weren't careful to align it straight. These were just for testing the laser settings.
For production, they'll be done on a jig, so positioning and alignment will be consistent.
I've learned more than I'd planned to, about printing legends on PBT, from this experience. Again, thanks to everyone for their patience. I hope you'll all be pleasantly surprised with the final product.
Post by: dazhdev on Sun, 05 January 2020, 19:32:19
interested in a US version.
Post by: commandlinedesign on Wed, 29 January 2020, 13:37:03
the alignment is very good :)
Yeah, sorry about that, they weren't careful to align it straight. These were just for testing the laser settings.
For production, they'll be done on a jig, so positioning and alignment will be consistent.
I've learned more than I'd planned to, about printing legends on PBT, from this experience. Again, thanks to everyone for their patience. I hope you'll all be pleasantly surprised with the final product.
That's great, thanks so much for updating us. I'm glad to hear the project is still coming along!
Post by: macclack on Wed, 29 January 2020, 16:24:59
Thank you for the update!!
Sent from my Ono-Sendai Cyberspace 7 using Tapatalk
any updates? It's been quite a while without any news.
Post by: Applet on Wed, 19 February 2020, 04:48:24
Post by: macclack on Tue, 28 April 2020, 13:29:18
Post by: ChumpyWasTaken on Tue, 26 May 2020, 11:47:47
does this explain the QC issues in latest Matias kb batches? Knew there were some pretty significant issues with boards produced around mid-late 2018...reading through this replies here seems to indicate a larger manufacturing problem. I work in fab/eng so and some of the stuff here is uh :eek: worrying.
Can anyone with a newer board sound off?
Post by: macclack on Thu, 22 July 2021, 16:01:17
Post by: Matias on Fri, 23 July 2021, 01:12:31
Sooo.... Are we ever going to to get anything for our money or???
There was a lot of progress on my last trip, but I've been stranded since the pandemic started. We can get the keyboard hardware done, and we've already started on the firmware, but the keycaps will require travel. It'll probably be a few months before we know the situation.
New acc-
does this explain the QC issues in latest Matias kb batches? Knew there were some pretty significant issues with boards produced around mid-late 2018...reading through this replies here seems to indicate a larger manufacturing problem. I work in fab/eng so and some of the stuff here is uh :eek: worrying.
Can anyone with a newer board sound off?
We did a tooling refresh before the pandemic, so there shouldn't be any major issues.
Post by: Xury46 on Sat, 12 August 2023, 18:00:33
Post by: Matias on Sun, 13 August 2023, 07:48:33
I just found out about this. Did it ever come to fruition? It looks like an interesting project.
Yes, it's still happening but not ready yet. We're slower than NASA...
I've been in Taiwan for almost a month and a half, and it's one of the projects we've been working on.
Progress includes a new stabilizer system that supports both ALPS and Cherry (without ripping the guts out when you remove a keycap). We were using Costar stabs originally.
The case design is also essentially done -- still waiting on the near-final mockup sample.
Let me know if you have any other questions.