5 months of searching....we have the CM Storm CherryMX Red

[duranzo]

Hi Ho!

This is my FIRST mechanical keyboard ever, and I'm coming from a Logitech G15.  This keyboard is FANTASTIC. It just "feels" great.  I bought a new mechanical keyboard mainly for Starcraft2, and this just works better than I imagined.  I did hear however that browns are better for SC2, can anyone confirm haha (i'll eventually get one just wanted to know).  As for now, waiting for these reds have been WELL worth the wait, as I really really wanted the Filco Majestouch2 Red, but I missed that.  I didn't want Leopolds either as I heard a lot of negative reviews about the stabilizer in Leo (but I really don't get how it could be much different after using my Storm).

I would like to thank everyone on gh, cause I read post after post, till I found that I wanted the Reds, really helped me pick the right one for me.

[pitashen]

I wouldn't worry about it too much. Both brown and red can be just as good. It is a bit of a personal preference. If you watch high level streams, you would find out some of them use blackwidow, which uses blue switches. Blue switches are generally considered not as good as brown for SC (so we say here). The truth is, the fact that even some  Korean pros still use DT35 rubber dome board should tell you something about the keyboard choices  --> minor importance.

PS. I feel bad for those mech keyboard newbies, who get confused and paranoid by researching too much on hardcore forums like this one (the PINGs the Stabalizers the keycap printings etc etc etc). I bought mine without concerning too much what people said up here. I basically researched what switch could be the best for me and went for the board that looks good to me and with quality construction. It is a keyboard geekhackers generally would not recommend , but I like it very much regardless. That being said, Leopold would have been a fine choice.

[slueth]

Doesn't matter much, some pros even use blacks for sc2.  It is whatever you prefer.  They only used rubber domes because they were used to them from the pc cafes that were common place in Korea.  DT35 was a cheap and popular rubber domed board among the pc cafes.

[enoy21]

Having debated on browns vs reds for so long, I am very happy with the browns. Although I am still curious about the reds and they will likely be my next switch. These feel almost linear to me and from what I understand feel a bit stiffer than the reds even though they use the same spring. A few people though (myself included) have found that new browns actually have an actuation force of 55g instead of the reported 45g. I still haven't had time to determine if this is because it's new or they changed something for the Filco's.

[pitashen]

Having debated on browns vs reds for so long, I am very happy with the browns. Although I am still curious about the reds and they will likely be my next switch. These feel almost linear to me and from what I understand feel a bit stiffer than the reds even though they use the same spring. A few people though (myself included) have found that new browns actually have an actuation force of 55g instead of the reported 45g. I still haven't had time to determine if this is because it's new or they changed something for the Filco's.

Brown has ALWAYS been 55.

[enoy21]

Perhaps I misunderstand the actuation vs peak force ?  It took 55g for my key to initially go down and hit the actuation mark.

Actuation is reported to be 45g but is that only once you get past the tactile bump ? Which means the peak force is actually the most important number ?  I always thought the peak force was the force necessary to bottom out.

[duranzo]

Lol, sooo...which is it, I'd like to know cause it'll be my next board if any.  Just for curiosity.

[pitashen]

actuation point
55 for brown
45 for red

go see ripster's wiki

[duranzo]

thanks for confirming, are there any tactile 45 actuation?

[enoy21]

I was looking at his wiki, Specifically the part where he had someone else source that they found it at 55g and he thought that was strange and possibly just because they are new.  It's listed here and at OCN as 45g actuation and 55g peak force.  

It makes sense that the peak force to get the key moving is higher, but in that case that's the only number that matters because you need atleast that much force to get to the actuation point.

Brown MX
Cherry Corp Ricercar SPOS - 45g - Phaedrus - Source.
Das S - 45g - r31ncarnat3d - Source.
Filco Majestouch Cherry Brown Gen 2 - 55g - Source - Scrappy. (seems a bit high but maybe because it's new)
U9BL-S - 45g to activate, 55/60 to bottom out completely. Source - Cpt. Jeff.
KBC Poker - 55g - Source - oddsratio. (seems a bit high but maybe because it's new)

Note: Browns measure a bit lower than the official force chart would indicate. Measurements tend to show both activation force around 45g and bottoming out around 50g instead of 55g for peak force and 60g bottoming out force.

Towards the end of that post I seconded and confirmed that my new MJ2 takes 55g to get the key moving at which point it drops to the bottom.


Looking closer at Peak and Activation wiki by Chloe' , It show's that the tactile bump is around 50-52g to get past, this would be the difference in a Blue/Brown/Clear over a linear which wouldn't need that force spike.

I'm thinking this is why some people say they initially couldn't feel the tactility much in browns , but later it became very apparent. This could be the break in period of a new switch , or could be user perception changes based on experience.

[pitashen]

I was looking at his wiki, Specifically the part where he had someone else source that they found it at 55g and he thought that was strange and possibly just because they are new.  It's listed here and at OCN as 45g actuation and 55g peak force.  

It makes sense that the peak force to get the key moving is higher, but in that case that's the only number that matters because you need atleast that much force to get to the actuation point.

Towards the end of that post I seconded and confirmed that my new MJ2 takes 55g to get the key moving at which point it drops to the bottom.


Looking closer at Peak and Activation wiki by Chloe' , It show's that the tactile bump is around 50-52g to get past, this would be the difference in a Blue/Brown/Clear over a linear which wouldn't need that force spike. Heavy handed person would tend to not feel that bump at all.

I'm thinking this is why some people say they initially couldn't feel the tactility much in browns , but later it became very apparent. This could be the break in period of a new switch , or could be user perception changes based on experience.

Well, regardless what the "actual" values are. I believe in general, it is commonly agreed that Black > Blue > Brown > Red out of the currently four popular mx switches.

The bump becomes apparent once you start looking for the feel of it. Very much like the PING phenomena. Its not there until you really look for the sound.

[enoy21]

Yeah , I get the commonly agreed on part , usually listing the reds/browns at 45g - blues at 50g - blacks/whites at 60g.

But even in my review of the MJ2 the first day I got it I mentioned that for some reason the blues just felt lighter to me, and they still do.  But this may change as the browns get more use.

As much as I love the browns , I'm a bit concerned that reds would feel too light to me.

[HWI]

Reds and browns feel pretty similar to me. The tactility isn't very noticeable in browns and they are barely stiffer than reds. I like both better than blues and blacks, but I like reds a little more than browns.

[Tony]

Please put some pictures of your keyboard. After using brown extensively, red is what I am looking forward to.

[dorkvader]

I've got one in the mail.

One reason to get it is the red metal plate. Looking sharp!

[a1san]

Hi ho there!
I am typing on a filco majestouch 2 with browns , applied with orings on every key and i am just waiting 26th of October to recieve my CM storm quick fire with reds!
I had the chance to try out and play with a board that it had the reds and i think and deeply believe that the reds is my switch.

HWI mentioned that you will not notice so much deference between browns and reds.Thats true , but for me reds without this tactile feeling is my preference so far and thats is a tiny diference that it matters.

And i have to say that if i was choosing a mech for my first time with my current experience on switches i would go reds full ahead.
I love my filco , i wish there were more Limited R editions with reds on tenkeyless , but it seems for Filco a limited edition is really a limited one...

Though there, battlesheep , a CM employer  has mentonioned that is Costar made board.
But i dont believe its a Filco clone board.The spaces of the keys in the case seems more Leo.
Its seems to be a mix of leopold case with filco stabilizers,Costar made all the way.
They just took the best of them and put them in a new board.

Reds will not shown up in america and europe so its kinda limited edition too!

Take some pictures can you? How you like it? Any bad things that you like to mention so far?

[duranzo]

I will get pictures up soon, but so far after 2 days of Starcraft2 Gaming, I LOVE it. These reds perform great, and I'm not sure what those people are talking about, Reds are FINE for SC2, I haven't tried browns yet but can they be that much better than reds i doubt it from my experience with reds, just perfect.

[enoy21]

I'm glad to see the storm getting so many good reveiws. I want to try reds soon but it's hard for me to justify another switch that I hear is so similar to the browns I just got and happen to love.

[keyboardlover]

Hi Ho!

[video=youtube;Q1sJUmTB6f8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1sJUmTB6f8[/video]

[zenaly]

i'm going to buy this keyboard for gaming (especially for FPS games like Battlefield 3) , i want to buy red switches but i'm not sure about it so many people saying that black switch is the best choise for gaming, Which switch you guys recommend for FPS games?

[pitashen]

I will get pictures up soon, but so far after 2 days of Starcraft2 Gaming, I LOVE it. These reds perform great, and I'm not sure what those people are talking about, Reds are FINE for SC2, I haven't tried browns yet but can they be that much better than reds i doubt it from my experience with reds, just perfect.

you are correct, it is pure personal preference. Korean pros even use rubber domes. The choice of keyboard really doesn't have much direct impact on the performance of SC2 players. Whatever you can get used to will do the job.

[Clickey]

you are correct, it is pure personal preference. Korean pros even use rubber domes. The choice of keyboard really doesn't have much direct impact on the performance of SC2 players. Whatever you can get used to will do the job.

This is true, anyone that tells you one switch is better than another without giving good logic is just trolling.

Blacks are not good for starcraft IMO because 200+ apm on higher force keys can cause pain problems. I was a semi-pro FPS player and do not see why people say blacks are good for FPS (I used rubber domes at the time), I think they just see it on that OCN guide and repeat it like parrots.

Blues, browns, ergo clears, and reds are all equal for gaming, it is just preference (dont let people tell you doubletaps are a problem, they are not). TLO has serious RSI problems and he uses a Steelseries with blacks, along with a terribly non-ergonomic mouse (razer deathadder), so make sure your devices are not going to hurt you, but from there it is ALL preference.

I get 45g using ripometer for browns, and ergo clears, you may not be doing it correctly if you are getting 55g for browns. The tactile bump is a small part of the force curve, so it should not effect your ripometer readings.

[enoy21]

I think switch preference should be primarily about typing preference as game styles and games will change alot. I don't think any give a real increase or decrease in performance , but the click feel may be a bit irritating in an FPS although it never bothered me.

How would one be doing the Ripometer wrong ?  It's not exactly a complicated procedure.   I put 8 nickels on the letter F ensuring it was not touching any other keys, then started gently adding nickels. It took 3 more and on the third one it seemed to hesitate for a second and in one case took a 4th so it was atleast pretty close to 55 or 53 atleast.

[HWI]

along with a terribly non-ergonomic mouse (razer deathadder)

lol what. The only mouse I've ever used that is more comfortable than the DeathAdder is the IME. Though, I do agree with you on switches.

[Glockateer]

I don't think anyone has said reds were bad for gaming. Even I use my quick fire reds as a main board. I do believe o-rings made it more enjoyable though. : p
Browns are certainly nice for the soft tactile feel when spamming keys, though.

[dorkvader]

I think switch preference should be primarily about typing preference as game styles and games will change alot. I don't think any give a real increase or decrease in performance , but the click feel may be a bit irritating in an FPS although it never bothered me.

How would one be doing the Ripometer wrong ?  It's not exactly a complicated procedure.   I put 8 nickels on the letter F ensuring it was not touching any other keys, then started gently adding nickels. It took 3 more and on the third one it seemed to hesitate for a second and in one case took a 4th so it was atleast pretty close to 55 or 53 atleast.

Dithering: You're supposed to smack it to make sure it gets past the tactile bump. Note: I don't approve.

[enoy21]

Here was my thoughts on this in my updated review :

Force of the switch:

Several days ago I used the RipOmeter method to test the force needed to activate the keys due to the discrepancy in feeling for me vs the listed values of blue switches at 50g and brown switches as 45g.  
At that time I measured 55g as also noted by another user listed in the Peak and Activation forces wiki It was thought that this may be due to the keys being new and needing a break in period. While I may not have reached that break in period yet , I have put a lot more time on them so I tested again today.
The results today are the same as last week.  10 nickels (50g) do not activate the switch. 90% of the time 11 nickels(55g) do, but interestingly 10% of the time they do not and require a 12th nickel.  This tells me that it is right on the verge of 55-56g of force and depending on how gently I can lay the 11th nickel on it the activation force is not yet achieved.

So this may still be a case of new switches that need a break in period , but according to the force charts listed here 55g would be the actual expected number based on PEAK force to get past the tactile bump and 45g to go to actual activation.  I think this is misrepresented in the wiki with this line Brown:

soft tactile (ergonomic), Actuation Force 45cN, Peak Force 55cn, MX1A-G.

Since the peak force is required to get past the tactile bump and to the actuation point.  

(Attachment Link) 29629[/ATTACH]

That being said, IF you can float just below the tactile bump and above the actuation point then the 45g rating is accurate. I just feel this is an impractical and misleading rating to 99% of the population while still being strictly accurate.

While the actuation force requirement is technically correct , the peak force is really the number to be focused on for actuation unless you are specifically preventing the switch from rebounding above the tactile bump in repeated tests.   Atleast when it comes to browns.

The 90/10  can be explained by dithering I believe.

[dorkvader]

The point about dithering is that it may attempt to replicate some more real world use, but I feel like it would be better to get an ideal picture of the key. Why not recommend repeating the measurement on 10 keys, and get a better sample that way?

My opinion on the wikis is that since the system is so far from ideal, any contribution I make would postpone the inevitable takedown and rewrite, thereby doing more harm than good.
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I'm excited to receive my CMstorm as well.