Who have gone ortholinear & never left? Who have tried & never will again?

[knowsnokb]

Who have gone Ortholinear & stuck with it? Who have tried & never will again?

I know there is no scientific proof yet regarding staggered vs ortholinear but I was just curious about actual user experience of people using ortholinears like the Planck/Atomic.
How long did it take you to adjust?
How is your typing speed? Faster? Slower?
Is it more comfortable to use? Less?
How easy is it to adapt from ortho to staggered, or from staggered to ortho? Do you even bother adapting or did  you replace everything with ortholinear?

[davkol]

TypeMatrix 2030 is my secondary (primary portable) keyboard.

It took me 30 minutes to be able to type; a little over a week to get my accuracy back. However, I struggled with Control-[XCV] for about a week, which was very frustrating.

This layout helped me become confident touch typing on the number row, and it surprisingly transitioned to the standard staggered layout for the most part as well.

I've used a point-of-sale matrix keyboard with MX switches (as opposed to scissor switches) too, but didn't like it, because the potentially longer key travel and more sculpted individual keycaps put more strain on my wrists—even with ~3-column hand separation (compared to TM2030's only one column); I'd feel more comfortable, only if the keyboard provided at least 5-column separation or some angle between halves… or perhaps if I didn't touch type using the standard technique (at the cost of its own share of problems though).

[KRKS]

Funny you asked, I checked out a my friends' Planck last week, I could only really type on it with my wrists twisted outwards, which would obviously hurt over time. Even when I tried to play some old FPS I don't know, I still twisted my left wrist a bit even though I didn't need to. That and I didn't feel right with such a small board, but that's more of a complaint about the size and my preference towards TKL or sizes inbetween 60% and TKL and not about ortholinear stagger. I'm still interested in trying out symmetrical stagger, like in some 7bit boards.

[appleonama]

tried a plank and it hurt my wrists. i type with my wrists outward and the plank forced me to keep them straight.

[davkol]

To be fair, that wrist position wouldn't be a problem with an alternative fingering scheme, such as the one associated with the Workman layout. Then, the whole thing becomes almost as weird as the awkwardly staggered standard though.

[iaeen]

I prefer ortholinear. Granted, I've only used it on the ErgoDox which allows you to angle each half however you want, but I imagine I will like it just as well on the Planck that I intend to order at some point.

IMO, most people who don't like it are just used to the stagger on normal keyboards. Once you re-train yourself, you will realize that all keyboards should be made this way.

At the end of the day, it's not that big of a deal. There are many bigger fish to fry ergonomically speaking, and it's not that hard to go back and forth once you get used to it.

[jacobolus]

The “ortholinear” design is no closer to human hand shape than the standard row-stagger keyboard layout is. Both are in my opinion terrible, designed using poorly chosen criteria/constraints (in the case of the standard keyboard, not poorly chosen originally, but now a century out of date). “Ortholinear” just piles uniqueness on top, losing the >100 year historical legacy the standard keyboard has. The only advantages “ortholinear” has over the standard design are (1) symmetry, which might make it slightly easier to transfer knowledge about hand motions between right and left hands (I think this is a marginal advantage at best), and (2) whatever aesthetic benefit you think there is to a strict grid. This is not a functional advantage, but some people have strong aesthetic preferences, so it can’t be entirely dismissed.

If you examine human finger motions and human hand shape, and start the hand in some initial “home” position on the keyboard, and then try to reason about how difficult various keys should be to press various keys, it’s easy to conclude that some keys will be marginally harder to press in an “ortholinear” scheme, and other keys will be marginally easier to press. If you are willing to also adopt a keyboard layout explicitly designed for the difficulty of pressing various keys in strict grid layout, you can probably do better than QWERTY. However, it would be equally possible to design a better logical letter assignment given the standard keyboard shape. The best designs in either case are only marginally different.

Specific “ortholinear” keyboards might be better than specific “standard” keyboards, if they have e.g. more hand separation, easier to reach modifier keys (the TypeMatrix falls into these categories), more thumb keys, or a more portable size. The same design features could easily be added to an otherwise standard keyboard though.

To get to a truly better design, it’s necessary to scrap preconceptions about proper keyboard shape, and place keys where they’re easiest for real human fingers to get to. If building a keyboard with two flat halves, this results in a column-oriented stagger. If you can construct a board with a more 3d design, this design principle results in varying heights between columns and rows, so that e.g. the middle finger keys are vertically lower than the pinky keys.

[climbalima]

I find it easier to touch type on my planck than any other keyboard.

[sdothum]

Built a Planck last summer. And haven't touched any of my other keyboards since. Took me no time to get used to the ortholinear layout -- but I had already created Colemak variants adapted with the "angle mod" to impart left hand fingering symmetry (opposite slant) with the right (this required shifting the entire keyboard layout right one character on my Poker2). Have been refining my layers for months and finally arrived at the home rows pushed to the outer edges of the keyboard for maximum hand separation. Combined with my right hand numeric keypad and left hand symbol keypad (versus the traditional row of numbers, symbols and function keys) there are no index/pinkie finger stretches outside each hands' 5x3 cluster. Thumb actions are the key -- handling space/shift, enter/shift, esc, tab, backspace and layers.

Save for building a handwired split keyboard (which would probably still maintain the layout/layers I have arrived at), the Planck appears to be my end game. Have built half a dozen since with various switches and keycaps. With layers, everything bigger than a 40% keyboard seems cumbersome.

[krumbprone]

I built a Terminus Mini and gave it a chance for about a week before I wanted to throw it against the wall.  I really didn't expect it to be such a struggle.  All those years of muscle memory hard to unlearn.  I'm not willing to give it another chance anytime soon for real typing sessions.  It's just a toy for occasional gaming to me. 

[algernon]

I went ortholinear with a TypeMatrix 2030. It saved my hands. But I left that boat when switching to an ErgoDox (and to Keyboardio later). I would not go back to ortholinear, because the column stagger of the ErgoDox, and the layout of Keyboardio is, for me, superior. But for a travel keyboard, Planck (or a similar size ortholinear) would be my #1 choice, because of the small size, and the symmetry.

[Philister]

I tried the Truly Ergonomic twice for a couple of weeks with more than a year in between, but ended up making so many typos even after about four weeks of non-stop use that I had to give up on it. Plus I'm sure that if I had persisted, I would now find it a good deal harder to type on staggered layouts when on a public / office computer / laptop.

If I ever try again, it will be Kinesis Advantage or a Maltron as the bowl shape may be a game changer, but nothing flat and unstaggered ever again for me.

[skitty]

I tried the Truly Ergonomic twice for a couple of weeks with more than a year in between, but ended up making so many typos even after about four weeks of non-stop use that I had to give up on it. Plus I'm sure that if I had persisted, I would now find it a good deal harder to type on staggered layouts when on a public / office computer / laptop.

I suffered through using my Infinity Ergodox for a few weeks before I finally managed to get to my normal typing speed. Now that I'm not making a typo every few characters I'm totally in love with the board. But I do have the issue of making a few typos when I transition to a staggered layout but it only a takes a minute for my old muscle memory to kick in. I guess it helps that I use a normal TKL at work and my Ergodox at home so I'm always transitioning between the two.

[MarkSenn]

I'm ortholinear and will never change.  Started using TypeMatrix 2020 around 10--15 years ago.  Love it.  Have a ErgoDox EZ I'm in the process of programming and have a Keyboardio Model 01 on order.

[nevin]

IMO, most people who don't like it are just used to the stagger on normal keyboards. Once you re-train yourself, you will realize that all keyboards should be made this way.

so true.

built my 1st ortho board in june, took less than a week to truly get used to it. but, i built a keeb.io Viterbi (5x7 split ortholinear) so there's an extra column on both halves compared to standard ortho 60% (2- 5x6 or 5x12 altogether). but there are very little compromises in hiding/changing key placement to fit in the form factor. think this is what really helped me in the transition.

i can go back & forth between ortho & staggered but definitely prefer ortho now.

typing speed back to average/normal

definitely more comfortable, split & built in num pad into right half. (never liked doing number stuff on the number row, even when i was using a GH60, i used a separate numberpad off to the side)

here's what my current layout looks like (still needs some work though)

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/8dc34fc5bdb7250191dd355f24361b1c

[Lanrefni]

IMO, most people who don't like it are just used to the stagger on normal keyboards. Once you re-train yourself, you will realize that all keyboards should be made this way.

so true.

built my 1st ortho board in june, took less than a week to truly get used to it. but, i built a keeb.io Viterbi (5x7 split ortholinear) so there's an extra column on both halves compared to standard ortho 60% (2- 5x6 or 5x12 altogether). but there are very little compromises in hiding/changing key placement to fit in the form factor. think this is what really helped me in the transition.

i can go back & forth between ortho & staggered but definitely prefer ortho now.

typing speed back to average/normal

definitely more comfortable, split & built in num pad into right half. (never liked doing number stuff on the number row, even when i was using a GH60, i used a separate numberpad off to the side)

here's what my current layout looks like (still needs some work though)
(Attachment Link)
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/8dc34fc5bdb7250191dd355f24361b1c

IMO, most people who don't like it are just used to the stagger on normal keyboards. Once you re-train yourself, you will realize that all keyboards should be made this way.

so true.

built my 1st ortho board in june, took less than a week to truly get used to it. but, i built a keeb.io Viterbi (5x7 split ortholinear) so there's an extra column on both halves compared to standard ortho 60% (2- 5x6 or 5x12 altogether). but there are very little compromises in hiding/changing key placement to fit in the form factor. think this is what really helped me in the transition.

i can go back & forth between ortho & staggered but definitely prefer ortho now.

typing speed back to average/normal

definitely more comfortable, split & built in num pad into right half. (never liked doing number stuff on the number row, even when i was using a GH60, i used a separate numberpad off to the side)

here's what my current layout looks like (still needs some work though)
(Attachment Link)
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/8dc34fc5bdb7250191dd355f24361b1c

I was tempted by the Viterbi after I built a Levinson and realized I used number and function keys way more than I thought,I ended up ordering a BFO-9000 and some plates for it from Ponoko so I could get all the keys in a nice split layout.

[nevin]

I was tempted by the Viterbi after I built a Levinson and realized I used number and function keys way more than I thought,I ended up ordering a BFO-9000 and some plates for it from Ponoko so I could get all the keys in a nice split layout.

BFO... nice. would love to see it once you get it completed.

for me, the Viterbi is a great combination of small form factor & uncompromising layout. even being 70% (70 keys) the footprint is no bigger than a 60% if you place the two halves together. i put the numberpad in on a layer to see if it would work and i absolutely love it. so you actually get more than a 60% AND a numberpad in a split keyboard that has the same footprint of a standard 60% keyboard. brilliant, just brilliant.

i've been using the the Viterbi for about 3 months now, and switching back a couple other boards i have this week, i've really noticed how little travel my hands have to do on the Viterbi, and the things i don't like about the other boards are became more apparent.

one thing i do want to figure out in the programming is the sticky keys/layers thing. (difference between tap & hold)

[nguyenhimself]

It's not strictly ortholinear, but my Katana60 took me about a month to get back to my old typing speed. Then again, I suspect it's because I only typed on it at home.

The layout worked exactly as I had hoped: Making me position my hands in a very natural ʌ shape, similar to how you would type on the Microsoft Natural Ergonomic 4000. I find this layout practically the same as ortholinear, while also fixing my biggest pet peeves with ortho: The tiny 1u modifiers.

I did have to switch the mod and split spacebar keys around as I went about it, but hey, that's what QMK was there for.

[nevin]

wow. very nice.
is that one of those wooden cases with a cover (datamancer style)?
hand-wired or pcb?
bet you have a pretty penny wrapped up in this board.

[nguyenhimself]

wow. very nice.
is that one of those wooden cases with a cover (datamancer style)?
hand-wired or pcb?
bet you have a pretty penny wrapped up in this board.

Yeah, bamboo case with a cover from AliExpress.
Katana60 PCB + plate from Candykeys.
I don't think it's that expensive for a custom build. Probably cost about the same as a stock HHKB.

[tp4tissue]

Better than staggered qwerty,

But TENTING is really what you're after..

Even without ortholinear,  like VEA,  the staggered qwerty with TENTING is still miles better.

[nevin]

Yeah, bamboo case with a cover from AliExpress.
Katana60 PCB + plate from Candykeys.
I don't think it's that expensive for a custom build. Probably cost about the same as a stock HHKB.

thanks for the info. haven't heard of Candykeys, will check them out.

..

tp4tissue, i haven't tried tenting yet, gut i guess that's the next logical step for me. the Viterbi doesn't have standoffs close to the inner edge like the Levinson (to make it easier to add tenting with screws or other larger standoffs)

[tp4tissue]

Yeah, bamboo case with a cover from AliExpress.
Katana60 PCB + plate from Candykeys.
I don't think it's that expensive for a custom build. Probably cost about the same as a stock HHKB.

thanks for the info. haven't heard of Candykeys, will check them out.

..

tp4tissue, i haven't tried tenting yet, gut i guess that's the next logical step for me. the Viterbi doesn't have standoffs close to the inner edge like the Levinson (to make it easier to add tenting with screws or other larger standoffs)

Well Try HIGH-tenting with just some books under and around the board.  depending on ur table height relative to your elbow,   anywhere between 30 to 55 Degrees..

The rest is not super difficult, just build something from wood, or heck you can probably do it with cardboard..

[KaminKevCrew]

I like ortho boards quite a bit - I really like the idea of having symmetrical boards, and I like the way they feel. I'm still thinking about getting an ortho board and sticking with it, but there are a couple of reasons that make me hesitate. For one, I pretty much have to hit the 'Y' key with my left hand, and I'm not sure why that is. But it's a lot of work for me to hit the 'Y' key with my right, but I have to if I'm typing on an ortho board. The other reason is that if I want to go ortho, I'll want to go ortho on everything I own, and that means I'd actually have to carry another board around with me everywhere I take my laptop. That on its own wouldn't be a big deal, but it means that I'd have to go through the extra steps of plugging the board in and finding somewhere to put the board, etc. There are just too many steps that I'd have to go through in order to rock and ortho board (I'd really prefer to keep the board style that I use to a minimum.)

[nevin]

for me, it wasn't "Y" it was the "B" & "N" & "M" that i had to get used to when i went split.

if you build & program your own board, you can make the layout whatever you want. (keep the "Y" on left half IF doing a split ortho) if you're just going ortho, look at one that's larger than a plank likw the olkb atomic/preonic or similar (not split, these keep number row, 5x12 matrix)

you could probably put a battery & a bluetooth module in the board you build. i know bluetooth has been retrofitted into a bunch of 60-75%s already. i'm sure a lot of others could chime in about adding bluetooth.

[TheGlyph]

I was die hard full size for many years and sure I would never change. I got an XD75 for funsies because I really liked the visual symmetry and within 2 weeks of driving on it I couldn't begin to imagine switching back. Definitely consider myself a full convert!

[Rumblehotep]

I swap back and forth but damned if I don't keep hitting esc on staggered thinking it's tab. 
Typing on ortho was horrific at first but picked it up after a day or two, once you memorize your function layers it's good to go.
Heavy writing I guess I prefer using staggered but for lazy surfing I like a small plancktype, less finger travel..
Biggest trouble switching between layouts is having to reremember where ctrl and alt is.