Fancy some advices before buying my first trackball

[lom]

Hi all, recently I've been working at my desktop quite a lot and the result is I'm beginning to appreciate quality input devices more and more each day. My turning point was throwing out the horrible Microsoft Wireless Optical Desktop 4000 which I used for nearly a year (with nothing but contempt) and order a Cherry G80-3000 with MX blue switches. After a small research in here, I've decided my next pointing device should be a trackball (or at least trying out one properly). My experience with mice largely came from Logitech with a Cordless Mediaplay, a MX510, MX1000, VX Revolution, LX7, LX9 and several modern wireless one for laptops as well as pc before settled down with a  MX518 when I still gamed, all in all my impression is quite positive. Unfortunately, my MX518 started acting weirdly after 18 months, if will "sleep" (no LED, no detection in OS)  if used for prolong periods and only be active again after a night or two detached from computer.
Despite all the hypes about Microsoft mice, I've never like their designs with nearly-impossible-to-press middle button and dogged softwares for Mac (I'm working mostly in OS X), the appalling Wireless Intellimouse Explorer 2.0 made my hand tired so quickly that I find myself prefer almost any noname small optical mouse over it.

 By all means, I'm not an avid gamer and never plan to be so top gaming mice like Ikari or DeathAdder with proper mats don't appeal to me at all. So trackball it is, as for availability local sellers in town only offer four models, all Logitech as following:

1. Logitech Trackman Marble, corded with USB connector : about $19 shipping included. Not brandnew in box but in pristine condition. One month warranty. The 1st picture.

2. An unknown model whose image I attached here, the white one with only two buttons and PS/2 connector. Not brandnew in box but in pristine condition, very very lightly used. Just one month warranty and price is also $19 shipped. 2nd pic.

3. Logitech Trackman Wheel USB corded - Part number 910-000813 : Brandnew in box with 3-year warranty and carries a price tag of $36, not included shipping fee.

4. Logitech Cordless Optical Trackman - Part number 904369-0311 : Brandnew in box with 3-year warranty. Quite expensive with a $73 price tag, not included shipping fee.

5. Logitech Trackman Marble USB corded : Brandnew in box with 3-year warranty. $35, not included shipping fee.

I'm a male, right-handed with small hands and thin but long fingers. And I've never touch a trackball before. Since sellers in my city don't refund, I cannot buying things in ebay, also trying out at shops is out of question for me so I need some answers before biting the bullet.

a. Which kind of trackballs is more comfortable for starters, thumb or index/middle finger? Especially a person with small hands?

b. Are trackballs broken easily than optical mice which have no moving part? What I experienced with my MX518 leaves me the impression that modern optical mice is not very durable. But what about trackballs, is the difference of $16 justified 3-year over 1-month of warranty (Trackball Marble)?

c. As things stand, in your opinion which deal is best? I don't mind paying for the Cordless even when it's more expensive than a highend gaming mouse if its benefits can be justified nor I mind going the cheap route, I just don't like to be ripped off by fancy-but-useless "features".

Anyway, this forum is very resourceful and I thanks you all for your opinions which I know is coming.

[chimera15]

The logitech wireless trackman is the only one of the list that isn't just a cheap horrible imitation of a trackball, and it's pretty horrible.  It routinely drops signal, and the buttons aren't really arranged correctly, and hard to press because of their ridiculous design.  Your best bet is to try to snag a trackball explorer off ebay for around $100 or so.  They're still out there for that price every once in a while:

Buy this one if you can:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Microsoft-Trackball-Explorer-1-0-MS-track-ball-/120578500771?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c1309e8a3

Here's one for $140.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Microsoft-Trackball-Explorer-1-0-PS2-USB-Mouse-/170505367395?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27b2e96f63

Here's one that ends in 6 hours:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Microsoft-Trackball-Explorer-1-0-USB-PS2-Mouse-NR-/280524347076?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item41508dd6c4

You can also get tbo's for around $100 relatively easily which beat any of those Logitechs.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Excellent-Microsoft-Optical-Trackball-90-Day-warranty-/260617111388?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cadfd875c

[chimera15]

Well, if you haven't used a trackball before I wouldn't go jumping into a $100+ Microsoft Vintage one first thing.

The Logitech Trackman Marble at $35 is quite usable.  And after playing with it a while you may decide you want a big 2" trackball or prefer a small thumb one.

Show Image

At a Wedding last weekend the DJ used the Logitech Marble trackball.  I asked him why and he said he has had to setup in the weirdest locations so couldn't rely on space for a mouse near his setup.

It's not like you're working your way up, like there's some kind of skill involved with trackballs.  Having a non functioning trackball that's useless like that one is, because it has no scroll wheel, and unusable keys, you might as well not even bother getting one, it's just a waste of money to get anything but a tbo or tbe.  Not to mention the piss poor drivers logitechs have, although there is a special driver you can get for them that enables more functions, in addition to that their lifespan and durability is crap compared to a tbo or tbe.  A tbo will last you your lifetime if reasonably cared for, those logitechs are in the trash in a few months.  Or they're missing the ball cause they won't stay in well.  I had two of those, they suck horribly.  5 button + with a scroll wheel, or don't bother.

I think that's a lot like suggesting you get the cheapest rubber dome to see how you like keyboards.

If he doesn't like the tbo, he can almost always resell it at the same or higher price.


Tbo's are more like an investment at this point almost than actual trackballs.

[lom]

It's not like you're working your way up, like there's some kind of skill involved with trackballs.  Having a non functioning trackball that's useless like that one is, because it has no scroll wheel, and unusable keys, you might as well not even bother getting one, it's just a waste of money to get anything but a tbo or tbe.  Not to mention the piss poor drivers logitechs have, although there is a special driver you can get for them that enables more functions, in addition to that their lifespan and durability is crap compared to a tbo or tbe.  A tbo will last you your lifetime if reasonably cared for, those logitechs are in the trash in a few months.  Or they're missing the ball cause they won't stay in well.  I had two of those, they suck horribly.  5 button + with a scroll wheel, or don't bother.

Thanks for replied. But wow, are things really THIS bad?. Like I said, I can not use ebay or any foreign online shops (mostly because of my country custom regulation) so I'm stuck with whatever local sellers got in stock. If even the most pricey Cordless can not perform then maybe I should consider return to the darkside - from what I've read about Ikari Laser perhaps not so dark.

P/S : From your suggestion, I read some more about Microsoft's trackballs and the appreciation they're gotten. But when I can justified the exorbitant price of $112 for a NIB G80-3000 LSCEU (which I bought and enjoying to no end) for I understand it's the very same Das KB II that used to be sold at $129 retail, I find it's hard to shell out that much for an used device whose manufacturer no longer supports, especially when the manufacturer is Microsoft. My past experience with they desktop set and Intellipoint/type software for OS X wasn't quite enjoyable. Sorry if I'm sounding like a n00b in new territories but I am and also am trying to be a pragmatist.

[ch_123]

The Trackman Wheel is pretty good, I'm not sure about the validity of this "Logitechs will fall apart after a few months" statement.

[chimera15]

Thanks for replied. But wow, are things really THIS bad?. Like I said, I can not use ebay or any foreign online shops (mostly because of my country custom regulation) so I'm stuck with whatever local sellers got in stock. If even the most pricey Cordless can not perform then maybe I should consider return to the darkside - from what I've read about Ikari Laser perhaps not so dark.

P/S : From your suggestion, I read some more about Microsoft's trackballs and the appreciation they're gotten. But when I can justified the exorbitant price of $112 for a NIB G80-3000 LSCEU (which I bought and enjoying to no end) for I understand it's the very same Das KB II that used to be sold at $129 retail, I find it's hard to shell out that much for an used device whose manufacturer no longer supports, especially when the manufacturer is Microsoft. My past experience with they desktop set and Intellipoint/type software for OS X wasn't quite enjoyable. Sorry if I'm sounding like a n00b in new territories but I am and also am trying to be a pragmatist.

Yeah I understand your feelings about Microsoft.  The TBO's were a real anomaly from them, which is probably why they stopped making them. lol  TBO's are the Model M's of trackballs really. They last pretty much forever if you know how to take care of them, and no other mouse or trackball I've ever used has the longevity as them.  I've been using one of my tbo's for 10+ years and running, and it's been through a lot where I thought it was dead, but was able to resurrect it each time.

If you can't get one then go for the wireless trackman optical, the expensive one, you might like it, it at least has a scroll wheel.  You should get the advanced logitech driver for it, I forget what it's called, it has a special name, and will allow you to switch buttons around, and change the axis orientation, which the standard one doesn't.  It's somewhat liveable with those changes.

One thing I did to my trackman wireless is that I tried to extend the antenna with wiring in a long tail wire on it, which seemed to help the dropping of signal.  The thing I couldn't stand with it though, that I hate with all wireless items is constantly having to replace batteries constantly, so get some good rechargables.

[chimera15]

The Trackman Wheel is pretty good, I'm not sure about the validity of this "Logitechs will fall apart after a few months" statement.

The main problem with all their trackballs is for one the ruby points in them, and two, the ball they use scratches like 2 or 3 times as easy as a tbo/tbe.  With heavy use the ball becomes worn.  All of their trackballs are like this, their balls just suck relative to the tbe. The ruby points wear our 2 or 3 times as fast as the carbide bearings in tbo/tbe's.  The cords, switches, and pretty much every one of the parts in their product are just not made as well, and just aren't built well and not made for heavy use.

That combined with the crappy ovalish stylized design which is really all about form over function, and relative difficulty to depress buttons on almost all their trackballs just makes a relatively piss poor product.

The trackman wheel is like a toy compared to a tbo, seriously. It's half the size in the ball, and just doesn't fit an adult hand.  The rubber used on the side of the trackball, and the wheel degrades after a few years and turns into a sticky soup.  And again, no 4th or 5th buttons, so navigating is a pain in the ass, no back or forward buttons.  Just a sucky totally outdated product.

[lom]

Just checked Steelseries and Razer homepage, no trace of Mac support for any of their gaming gears, just like what Logitech did with their old mice (MX518 included). But, surprisingly, all their trackballs - even 8-year old design like Trackman Wheel - are supported in new version of control software or whatever their call it for Mac.

With ebay's out of question I may have to settle with a corded version. Thanks you, Chimera but I don't consider myself skilled in modding so paying premium for a wireless-and-frequently-dropout device is a no go also. The only question is, Trackman Wheel or Trackman Marble? From what I saw, Trackman Marble is the closest thing to the golden standard of 5-button with 4 while Wheel, of course, have a scroll wheel

Which one should I choose?

[chimera15]

Just checked Steelseries and Razer homepage, no trace of Mac support for any of their gaming gears, just like what Logitech did with their old mice (MX518 included). But, surprisingly, all their trackballs - even 8-year old design like Trackman Wheel - are supported in new version of control software or whatever their call it for Mac.

With ebay's out of question I may have to settle with a corded version. Thanks you, Chimera but I don't consider myself skilled in modding so paying premium for a wireless-and-frequently-dropout device is a no go also. The only question is, Trackman Wheel or Trackman Marble? From what I saw, Trackman Marble is the closest thing to the golden standard of 5-button with 4 while Wheel, of course, have a scroll wheel

Which one should I choose?

If the choice is between the two, trackman marbles have a feature where you can turn one of the tiny buttons into an autoscroll, which is a pain to use, but at least you'd have a potential scroll and a back button, if not a forward.  The trackman marble is also cheaper probably, so go for that one.  Make sure it's the newer 4 button version, cause there's an earlier 2 button one that is even more horrid.  I'd also choose an index trackball over a thumb type as well as they're more precise simply because you have more dexterity in your index finger than your thumb in general.

[lom]

The main problem with all their trackballs is for one the ruby points in them, and two, the ball they use scratches like 2 or 3 times as easy as a tbo/tbe.  With heavy use the ball becomes worn.  All of their trackballs are like this, their balls just suck relative to the tbe. The ruby points wear our 2 or 3 times as fast as the carbide bearings in tbo/tbe's.  The cords, switches, and pretty much every one of the parts in their product are just not made as well, and just aren't built well and not made for heavy use.

That combined with the crappy ovalish stylized design which is really all about form over function, and relative difficulty to depress buttons on almost all their trackballs just makes a relatively piss poor product.

The trackman wheel is like a toy compared to a tbo, seriously. It's half the size in the ball, and just doesn't fit an adult hand.  The rubber used on the side of the trackball, and the wheel degrades after a few years and turns into a sticky soup.  And again, no 4th or 5th buttons, so navigating is a pain in the ass, no back or forward buttons.  Just a sucky totally outdated product.

I forgot to ask, what are "ruby points" in Logitech trackballs? I think all currently trackballs are optical-based, not with 3-mechanical-wheels like in ancient mice, am I right?

[Jack]

I don't have a wide range of trackball experience, but I can contribute with a warning against one model: http://jack.is/angry/m01047.php

Good luck.

Edit: Got the product # confused with some other thing. Fixed the page.

[ch_123]

The only way you are going to escape problems with those yokes is if you buy a trackball with steel rollers such as the CST... These are expensive however, so on the cheap end of the market, the silly little red things in Logitechs are an acceptable compromise.

The Trackman is also one of the most comfortable mice I've ever used...

I don't have a wide range of trackball experience, but I can contribute with a warning against one model: http://jack.is/angry/m01047.php

I don't agree with you on the scroll wheel or wrist rest, but the gunking up problem on the KEM is comically bad. Which is a shame, because it would be a great trackball if it had metal rollers or something...

[chimera15]

And I stand by my assertion that buying a $100 plus Microsoft collectors item trackball because of dubious quality concerns is just crazy.

Here's the Ruby bearings close up.  Ewwwwww........!

The quality concerns are just the tip of the iceberg of why you should get a tbe, and not some junk logitech.  The main point is that the design of the tbe is 100 times better than any trackball ever put on the market, hands down.  There's nothing else that even comes close to it, every other trackball is flawed in one way or another.
  That's the main point and all there is to it.  There's simply no point in getting any other trackball but a tbe, no matter what the cost, cause they all suck in comparison for one reason or another.  They can still be had for around $100, and that's a really fair price, and I'd snatch every one of em up for that price if I could afford it.  I have 5 now, and that should be enough for the rest of my life as well, and enough for the computers I use in my day to day life.  TBE's are the way computers feel to me, and I wouldn't accept anything else for the computers I spend my life on.  Well except maybe my gaming trackball hacks that are made in the TBE's image. lol

[itlnstln]

Tell it, brother.

[lom]

Thansk you all very much. Yet after some last minute diggings I found another local seller, he've got several Kensington Orbit Trackballs with Scroll Ring for sale at $45 per item.


I've heard quite a lot of great things about Expert Mouse and Slimblade but certainly they're at another class for both being around $100 mark. Are Kensington's mid-range series any good? From the first sight I thinks its weird shape seems not as ergo-friendly as Logitech Trackmans, what about durability and accuracy? The bigger the ball, the more precise I'll get, am I correct?

[lom]

Nevermind, I dug up a thread in here about it and decided against. 2-button isn't gonna cut it when even 4-b is considered horrible.

[woebtz]

I'd still recommend the Kensington Trackball with Scroll Ring as your first:

• It's got the scroll ring feature, so it has the Trackman Marble beat.
• You can keep it for your other hand when you get a better trackball, unlike the Trackman Wheel.

[ch_123]

The quality concerns are just the tip of the iceberg of why you should get a tbe, and not some junk logitech.  The main point is that the design of the tbe is 100 times better than any trackball ever put on the market, hands down.  There's nothing else that even comes close to it, every other trackball is flawed in one way or another.
  That's the main point and all there is to it.  There's simply no point in getting any other trackball but a tbe, no matter what the cost, cause they all suck in comparison for one reason or another.

Ever hear of a thing called subjectivity?

[Jack]

Thansk you all very much. Yet after some last minute diggings I found another local seller, he've got several Kensington Orbit Trackballs with Scroll Ring for sale at $45 per item.

Show Image

I've heard quite a lot of great things about Expert Mouse and Slimblade but certainly they're at another class for both being around $100 mark. Are Kensington's mid-range series any good? From the first sight I thinks its weird shape seems not as ergo-friendly as Logitech Trackmans, what about durability and accuracy? The bigger the ball, the more precise I'll get, am I correct?

That is the M/N M01047 -- sorry, forgot to post the name. :)

[chimera15]

Ever hear of a thing called subjectivity?

Trackballs aren't art.  It's a mathematical equation and science when dealing with functionality. The TBE has 5 buttons and a scroll wheel, which only 3 or 4 other models of trackballs ever produced have had.  All 3 of those other trackballs are of a much lower grade, just as expensive, or are no longer produced and 100 times harder to find, and for 90% of the population aren't as comfortable to use.

Even with art, subjectivity doesn't preclude the rating of one piece of art over another for a particular application, as art contests are run constantly, and pieces that are normally considered subjective by people are judged and rated based on subject, style, and composition.

[gr1m]

Trackballs aren't art.

So you're saying that a person cannot prefer a specific trackball in the same way that they can prefer a specific mouse, keyboard or sandwich?

[chimera15]

So you're saying that a person cannot prefer a specific trackball in the same way that they can prefer a specific mouse, keyboard or sandwich?

Not when clear capabilities are sacrificed.  A person can choose to handicap themselves I suppose, but it's an illogical and unreasoned choice.  That's not subjectivity.

It's like saying you'd prefer to take a Sopwith camel in a dogfight vs an f-22.  You might get some moron to make that choice, but there's no chance a Sopwith Camel is going to prevail over an f-22.

Sandwich's are a subjective matter because they fullfill the same function, and have the same capabilities of alleviating hunger, or at least satisfying a craving.  There's very little difference when it comes right down to it from sandwich to sandwich.

If you want to argue that one 5 button + scroll wheel trackball is better than another one, that's one thing.  For instance it'd be a valid argument of subjectivity to pit the TBO vs the TBE, which is a subjective argument, because they have the same basic capabilities, build quality, ect.  It's subjective  because some people may prefer a thumb trackball over an index one, but don't put crappy logitechs that clearly don't have the same capabilities as the TBE or TBO in the same category, and say it's subjective when it's not.

[ch_123]

That's like saying that a G15 is better than a Model M it has backlighting, LCD screens and Macro keys whereas the Model M does not. Sometimes extra functionality is meaningless. I spend 95% of my computer time using mice with only three buttons (and some occasions, only two) and I don't see how that's a huge disadvantage.

It's subjective because some people may prefer a thumb trackball over an index one, but don't put crappy logitechs that clearly don't have the same capabilities as the TBE or TBO in the same category, and say it's subjective when it's not.

I know one capability that the Logitechs have that the MS whatsitcalled doesn't have!

...

...

...

You can buy them at a reasonable price.

[chimera15]

That's like saying that a G15 is better than a Model M it has backlighting, LCD screens and Macro keys whereas the Model M does not. Sometimes extra functionality is meaningless. I spend 95% of my computer time using mice with only three buttons (and some occasions, only two) and I don't see how that's a huge disadvantage.



I know one capability that the Logitechs have that the MS whatsitcalled doesn't have!

...

...

...

You can buy them at a reasonable price.

Yeah, sometimes added features are superfluous.  Having 5 well positioned buttons on a mouse or trackball aren't.   You may prefer to handicap yourself with a 3 button mouse, but I can surf and get around applications I would wager two or three times faster than you can.  

You may prefer to fly around in your Sopwith Camel, cause you like the wind on your face, but if it came to dogfight, my f22 will destroy you before you can even see me.

Capabilities are different' from features.  The G15 is a far more capable board standing alone than a Model M. However it looses because the main purpose and point of a keyboard is to type on, and it misses the mark because it uses suck ass keys.  A Model M with those features would win the battle hands down.

[ch_123]

Yeah, sometimes added features are superfluous.  Having 5 well positioned buttons on a mouse or trackball aren't.   You may prefer to handicap yourself with a 3 button mouse, but I can surf and get around applications I would wager two or three times faster than you can.  

Actually, you don't. If you have a halfway decent browser, right click, left click, OH WOW ITS LIKE HAVING FIVE BUTTONS. And don't get me started on mouse-less browsing...

Seriously, why stop at 5? Why not 10? Why not a gazillion?

And as for capability, doesn't the MS trackball have plastic rollers? Sounds like my CST wins this idiotic plane fight analogy...

[chimera15]

Actually, you don't. If you have a halfway decent browser, right click, left click, OH WOW ITS LIKE HAVING FIVE BUTTONS. And don't get me started on mouse-less browsing...

Seriously, why stop at 5? Why not 10? Why not a gazillion?

And as for capability, doesn't the MS trackball have plastic rollers? Sounds like my CST wins this idiotic plane fight analogy...

You're still comparing and confusing useless features with capabilities.  Rollers add longevity, and the hassle of changing points, but that only becomes a drawback at most once a month even with the heaviest use.  There's no added capability that metal rollers really give you.  You also can't count software or other hardware features that make up for the shortcomings of your device that would do the job if you were using the higher level device.  

 I have a macally 5 button trackball which is very rare that uses metal rollers, but it's badly ergnomically designed and doesn't fit the hand like the TBE so it looses there, but that's comparing like capability trackballs again.
 


A 5+ button trackball would have capabilities far past a tbe.  There's obviously a point where having more buttons becomes useless because there simply aren't enough functions to map to them. I think the number is around 10 probably.  Although there's something to be said for a nostromo/tbo type device as well.  5 is really the minimum you need though.  That's why my gaming trackball hacks are superior to tbe's, but you can't buy them on the open market so.

[itlnstln]

It sounds like y'all need one of these.

[ch_123]

Capabilities are different' from features.  The G15 is a far more capable board standing alone than a Model M. However it looses because the main purpose and point of a keyboard is to type on, and it misses the mark because it uses suck ass keys.  A Model M with those features would win the battle hands down.

You're still comparing and confusing useless features with capabilities.  Rollers add longevity, and the hassle of changing points, but that only becomes a drawback at most once a month even with the heaviest use.  There's no added capability that metal rollers really give you.  You also can't count software or other hardware features that make up for the shortcomings of your device that would do the job if you were using the higher level device.  

Here's another contradiction. Again, by your logic, the Logitech G15 is better because although it has 'suck ass keys', they don't do anything than the high quality buckling springs do. Sure they're less reliable, but hey, that's something that is only a concern if you're making heavy use of the keyboard.

God knows people don't make heavy use of mice ^o)

A 5+ button trackball would have capabilities far past a tbe. There's obviously a point where having more buttons becomes useless because there simply aren't enough functions to map to them. I think the number is around 10 probably. Although there's something to be said for a nostromo/tbo type device as well. 5 is really the minimum you need though. That's why my gaming trackball hacks are superior to tbe's, but you can't buy them on the open market so.

Right, but so far you have given no objective reason why five is the best, and consequently, a user of a three-button trackball would be equally correct in saying that five is too many, or a user of a seven-button trackball would be equally correct in saying that five is too few. So far, your point is "Five buttons is the best because my trackball has it. My trackball is the best because it has five buttons. Everyone else's favorite trackball which let's them use in a perfectly efficient manner is **** because it is not my trackball"

[chimera15]

Here's another contradiction. Again, by your logic, the Logitech G15 is better because although it has 'suck ass keys', they don't do anything than the high quality buckling springs do. Sure they're less reliable, but hey, that's something that is only a concern if you're making heavy use of the keyboard.

God knows people don't make heavy use of mice ^o)



Right, but so far you have given no objective reason why five is the best, and consequently, a user of a three-button trackball would be equally correct in saying that five is too many, or a user of a seven-button trackball would be equally correct in saying that five is too few. So far, your point is "Five buttons is the best because my trackball has it. My trackball is the best because it has five buttons. Everyone else's favorite trackball which let's them use in a perfectly efficient manner is **** because it is not my trackball"

It's not a contradiction.  The logitech has clearly better capabilities that the Model M doesn't.  It has the ability to be used in the dark and type passwords into things because it lights up, has the lcd which can be used for certain things, and the capability of being able to create macros, let alone probably n key rollover.  Features would be the styling and paint job, and the modern look.

The main point and difference in capability however is not just a feature, and is not the same.  Having buckling springs vrs rubber dome is more than just about durability, it's about ergonomics, and usefulness of the keyboard. It affects the amount of time that the keyboard can be used, and probably also the speed which one can reach typing.   This is where the Logitech fails, and it's a critical fault.


5 buttons and a scroll wheel is the best number because if you use your trackball to do anything on the web, the ability to click, translate forward, back, up, down, side to side, and bring up an option menu on a page at your fingertip is a necessity.  It takes a lot of time and concentration to move your cursor up to a back or forward button, to scroll sliders on the side of the page, possibly hundreds of times in a session, and wears on you.  5 buttons allows complete navigation at your fingertips. 4 or less does not.  

I own or at one time owned pretty much every trackball that's ever been produced commercially, including rarities like the Logitech fx's wired and wireless that are now selling for even more than the TBE's.  They're all my trackballs. I would have loved if any of the Logitech trackballs were as good a trackball as a TBO/TBE, but they're simply not.  When the Trackman cordless came out I went out and bought it in the first week or so that it was out and had my hopes up so high.  I've even requested on logitech's forum that they actually make a trackball that is functional and pointed out the flaws.  I now use the balls for them in my hacks because the trackball itself is just an inferior product and the only thing of any worth is the ball, because it is relatively large.

When I'm not using a tbo or tbe, or one of my hacks, there are functions that I have with the TBE, that I'm missing. It's as simple as that. I would have thought it would be obvious.  Have you ever used a 5+ button mouse or trackball?

[Zalusithix]

Honestly, this whole magical 5 button thing is being taken a bit too far. 5 is nice, but hardly needed for web browsing. Button counts are more important in games than something like web browsing. Hell, in normal browsing you only need left/right/scroll. Everything else can be virtualized using proper plugins. Up the button count to 4 and you have enough for 99% of the web browsing needs: left, right, center, back, scroll. How often do you really use forward? In my experience, it's easily handled with a gesture.

That elusive 5th button isn't that important, and the selection of trackballs increases significantly without the need for it. Unless you're doing heavy trackball gaming, I wouldn't worry about it.

[chimera15]

Honestly, this whole magical 5 button thing is being taken a bit too far. 5 is nice, but hardly needed for web browsing. Button counts are more important in games than something like web browsing. Hell, in normal browsing you only need left/right/scroll. Everything else can be virtualized using proper plugins. Up the button count to 4 and you have enough for 99% of the web browsing needs: left, right, center, back, scroll. How often do you really use forward? In my experience, it's easily handled with a gesture.

That elusive 5th button isn't that important, and the selection of trackballs increases significantly without the need for it. Unless you're doing heavy trackball gaming, I wouldn't worry about it.

left, right, center, back, scroll.... that's 5.  You mean left, right, back, scroll?  Or left, right, scroll wheel, middle scroll button assigned as back? There are like, 2, 4 button trackballs that have ever been produced. lol  Almost all of them are either 3 or 5.  I use forward a ton, and miss it when I don't have it.  It's especially nice when using an explorer and going through lots of trees.

What plugin allows you to have back at your fingertip if you don't have a button for it? You still have to take your cursor off the page and move it somewhere, or go to your keyboard.

[Zalusithix]

1) Left
2) Right
3) Center
4) Back
NA) Scroll

Scroll as in scroll wheel / mechanism by which to scroll line by line (or multiples). This usually isn't regarded as a button, even if it is in fact sending signals like one (two actually). Honestly I haven't even looked at the button count of the MS one, because quite frankly I don't care about it. But when I keep hearing 5 button, I take that as 5 buttons. (back/forward/center/left/right) The scroll wheel doesn't count as a button.

[Zalusithix]

As for the plugins for back/forward without lifting your finger from the trackball, virtually any gesture plugin will do the trick. Hold RB, press LB, release RB & LB and vice versa. (Rocker gesture) Hold RB/LB and move mouse left/right, release RB/LB. (Typical mouse gesture)

Once you get used to them, they're 90% as efficient as a dedicated button.

Edit: One caveat to the "90% as efficient part". This is assuming non repeating use of the button. If you have to, say, back up 15 times, a gesture is nowhere near as efficient as a real button. However, this is typically the exception to the use of such buttons - not the norm. The benefit of a gesture is that you can do it anywhere on the page in a nearly subconscious manner. (Going up to the back button on the browser GUI requires a conscious move/confirm/click.

[ch_123]

The main point and difference in capability however is not just a feature, and is not the same.  Having buckling springs vrs rubber dome is more than just about durability, it's about ergonomics, and usefulness of the keyboard. It affects the amount of time that the keyboard can be used, and probably also the speed which one can reach typing.   This is where the Logitech fails, and it's a critical fault.

All those things are applicable to steel rollers in trackballs vs plastic dots. Of course, because this MS whateveritis doesn't have them, that's irrelevant, yah?

5 buttons and a scroll wheel is the best number because if you use your trackball to do anything on the web, the ability to click, translate forward, back, up, down, side to side, and bring up an option menu on a page at your fingertip is a necessity.  It takes a lot of time and concentration to move your cursor up to a back or forward button, to scroll sliders on the side of the page, possibly hundreds of times in a session, and wears on you.  5 buttons allows complete navigation at your fingertips. 4 or less does not.

Nonsense. You need at least a dozen. I mean, you need to be able to refresh, go to the home page, open a tab, close a tab, change tab, go to your favorite web page, deploy a robotic arm to scratch your arse etc from the press of a single mouse button, amirite?

I own or at one time owned pretty much every trackball that's ever been produced commercially, including rarities like the Logitech fx's wired and wireless that are now selling for even more than the TBE's.  They're all my trackballs. I would have loved if any of the Logitech trackballs were as good a trackball as a TBO/TBE, but they're simply not.  When the Trackman cordless came out I went out and bought it in the first week or so that it was out and had my hopes up so high.  I've even requested on logitech's forum that they actually make a trackball that is functional and pointed out the flaws.  I now use the balls for them in my hacks because the trackball itself is just an inferior product and the only thing of any worth is the ball, because it is relatively large.

Right, but given the amount of people here who happily use Logitech trackballs, I'm questioning your ability to differentiate between things you do not like and things which are just inherently bad. If you don't like them, that's fair enough, and the issues behind that are worthy of discussion, but that doesn't warrant you condemning a number of popular products because they don't have the amount of mouse buttons that you happen to be used to using.

When I'm not using a tbo or tbe, or one of my hacks, there are functions that I have with the TBE, that I'm missing. It's as simple as that. I would have thought it would be obvious.  Have you ever used a 5+ button mouse or trackball?

Yes, and for extended periods of time too, and while they are handy, you wouldn't find me suffering from psychological trauma over the lack of them. My point is not so much that five buttons are inherently useless or ****, just that you seem to have this irrational belief that they are absolutely essential to the modern user, which they are not - at least from my experience, and the experience of quite a few others around here I am willing to bet.

[chimera15]

I just used forward twice coming back to this page after deciding first not to post, because you're clearly just trying to troll me at this point, and then decided I
would respond by pointing out how ridiculous you stating that a forward button is a useless feature. lol

It's not a matter of arbitrary like or dislike, it's a matter of what a product does or doesn't do, and me liking or disliking the product based on that.

In addition to the 5 buttons and scroll wheel.  The TBE also uses the largest ball of the small footprint trackballs,  The exception of course is the kinsington expert type.

That alone makes it more responsive and precise, which is another clearly better capability and deciding factor.

As for the plugins for back/forward without lifting your finger from the trackball, virtually any gesture plugin will do the trick. Hold RB, press LB, release RB & LB and vice versa. (Rocker gesture) Hold RB/LB and move mouse left/right, release RB/LB. (Typical mouse gesture)

Once you get used to them, they're 90% as efficient as a dedicated button.

Edit: One caveat to the "90% as efficient part". This is assuming non repeating use of the button. If you have to, say, back up 15 times, a gesture is nowhere near as efficient as a real button. However, this is typically the exception to the use of such buttons - not the norm. The benefit of a gesture is that you can do it anywhere on the page in a nearly subconscious manner. (Going up to the back button on the browser GUI requires a conscious move/confirm/click.

Gestures are ridiculous, hard to use, and take a lot of time and effort, possibly more than actually pressing an on screen control.  It takes at least 2 or 3 times the effort of just pressing a single button.  You even admitted this when you stated it's difficult to use them in succession.  Plus in my experience they activate a lot when you don't intend them to.

[Zalusithix]

If you think I'm trolling you, you're sadly mistaken. I rarely use a forward button while web browsing. I backtrack to a previous place and then go to a new location. It is very rare that I want to go back to where I just came from. That behavior is more common in file browsing for me (copy/paste). But even then, if I'm going to be doing that more than a couple times, I open two windows for easy navigation back and forth. Not everybody has the same usage patterns as you.

And I never said it was a useless feature, I said it wasn't the end all be all. I wouldn't limit my options just because a trackball doesn't have it.

Gestures are ridiculous, hard to use, and take a lot of time and effort, possibly more than actually pressing an on screen control. It takes at least 2 or 3 times the effort of just pressing a single button. You even admitted this when you stated it's difficult to use them in succession. Plus in my experience they activate a lot when you don't intend them to.

I've never had a gesture fire off when I didn't want it to, and the movements are quite easy to use once you get used to them. Also, just because you can't do something in sequence rapidly doesn't mean it isn't fast for doing it once. A rocker gesture is an order of magnitude faster than moving the mouse to the back/forward button and only marginally slower than a single button click. It's annoying to use over and over again, but for actions that aren't common, it's more than sufficient.

[lom]

Well I can only say for myself but in fact I hardly find anything except left, right, scroll and middle (usually also scroll). In Firefox -  my main browser -  simple gestures can easily substitute back, forward and closing tab.  
Of course, more button will always be welcomed in gaming or production apps which rely heavily on macros. I'm using none so I think I'll be content with either of current Logitech trackballs.

I ordered the "like new" Trackman Marble after all. At $17, the worst case scenario is just a small lost or it can always acting as an off-hand sidekick -  where the righty-only Trackman Wheel simply can't. If the aftertaste is sweet then maybe I'll jump through hoops for a more serious trackball like Expert Mouse or Slimblade.

[chimera15]

If you think I'm trolling you, you're sadly mistaken. I rarely use a forward button while web browsing. I backtrack to a previous place and then go to a new location. It is very rare that I want to go back to where I just came from. That behavior is more common in file browsing for me (copy/paste). But even then, if I'm going to be doing that more than a couple times, I open two windows for easy navigation back and forth. Not everybody has the same usage patterns as you.

And I never said it was a useless feature, I said it wasn't the end all be all. I wouldn't limit my options just because a trackball doesn't have it.

To me it sounds like you're saying that you have to work around not having a forward button, and are trying to justify handicapping yourself.

[chimera15]

Well I can only say for myself but in fact I hardly find anything except left, right, scroll and middle (usually also scroll). In Firefox -  my main browser -  simple gestures can easily substitute back, forward and closing tab.  
Of course, more button will always be welcomed in gaming or production apps which rely heavily on macros. I'm using none so I think I'll be content with either of current Logitech trackballs.

I ordered the "like new" Trackman Marble after all. At $17, the worst case scenario is just a small lost or it can always acting as an off-hand sidekick -  where the righty-only Trackman Wheel simply can't. If the aftertaste is sweet then maybe I'll jump through hoops for a more serious trackball like Expert Mouse or Slimblade.

Yeah they're extremely cheap, so you can throw it away with not much concern at least. lol

[ch_123]

I just used forward twice coming back to this page after deciding first not to post, because you're clearly just trying to troll me at this point, and then decided I
would respond by pointing out how ridiculous you stating that a forward button is a useless feature. lol

And you're telling me that a button that deploys a robotic arm to scratch your ass is not a useful feature?! Sir, I can conclude only one thing -

[chimera15]

I miss boxxy. sigh

[Zalusithix]

To me it sounds like you're saying that you have to work around not having a forward button, and are trying to justify handicapping yourself.

Sure, I have to work around it. If I had a dedicated button for it, it would be faster. For as often as I use it though, it doesn't matter much to me. I could use a refresh button 100 times more than a forward button, but I even relegate that to a mouse gesture without a problem. Web browsing just doesn't demand super fast access to a number of functions. When I'm gaming or doing heavy productivity work that's more responsive to my input, then I want more buttons. However, I'll be using a mouse in those situations - and have more than 5 buttons. My trackball is for when I'm doing less time sensitive things and want relaxed ergonomics.

[ricercar]

It's always amusing to read intelligent people claim that opinion is fact, and then rationalize judgements as objective proof. Kudos, chimera15, you've been quite entertaining today.

Trolling? Maybe just a little. I'm really hoping to see you open your closed mind just a bit.

[ch_123]

I'm still waiting for CST to come out with a robotic arm attachment that plugs into the jacks on the side of the trackball...

[EverythingIBM]

I miss boxxy. sigh

Yeah... the good old days when you'd get those cool boxes with manuals and software:


And sometimes the boxes would have cloth maps and stuff in games. Richard Garriott needs to give the game industry a big kick.

[chimera15]

It's always amusing to read intelligent people claim that opinion is fact, and then rationalize judgements as objective proof. Kudos, chimera15, you've been quite entertaining today.

Trolling? Maybe just a little. I'm really hoping to see you open your closed mind just a bit.

Dude, there are things that are quantitative and fact and science, and a lot of things that are subjective and a matter of personal taste(although there are people that would argue that even this is just another form of science made up of group selection behaviors).  Ergonomics is a science whether you want to admit it or not.    You can start arguing that there's nothing quantitative in this world, everything is subjective, there's no such thing as science, and that 1+1=infinity if you want, but you're wrong.

I've owned every trackball that's ever been produced, and nothing would make me happier than if a $20 or even $70 logitech wasn't a piece of junk relative to the TBE.  I would have bought 10 of em and outfit every computer I own with them, and paid a fraction of the price I paid for my current TBE collection.   It has nothing to do with my personal opinion, it is an objective fact.

I still do use most of those other trackballs in secondary applications like I have a trackman wheel on my carputer, and I use my macally qball on a computer I have set up in the room I have all my photography lights and backdrops.  I tried or used  almost every trackball I ever bought for an extended period of time, sometimes years, so it's not like I bought them and decided the next week, "oh this is crap, I'm sticking with a tbe."   I've come to these conclusions over more than 20 years of using trackballs every day, most of the time 14 hours a day in heavy use.

There was a gap of 10 years where I owned and used at least 3 computers a day and only had 1 TBE because they were out of production, and ebay prices were ridiculous, so I couldn't afford them.  Every TBE I currently own I acquired over years of watching ebay auctions and bought them at or lower than the original selling price.  Some for as little as $30.  You can still find them for reasonable prices if you're willing to wait and be picky.  I'll tell you though they're worth a lot more to work flow than any trackball currently selling for $70+.

Ultimately I came up with hacking mice and making my own TBE gaming trackballs, which companies should have produced years ago, so I don't plan on buying anymore TBE's, but I would never recommend anyone buying a trackball to buy anything but a TBE, because there simply aren't any trackballs that fulfill all the functions of the TBE and do it in an ergonomic and efficient manner.

[HaaTa]

I Pity The OP That Just Wanted A Under $50 Trackball!

Show Image

Well, I guess he did ask for it in his post.

You mean like this one?

[chimera15]

You mean like this one?

Show Image

Sanwa's always look nice in the box and they're cheap, but they use really inferior plastic, and the usability of them, like the axis's being off and such are always an issue.

[HaaTa]

Yeah, my advice, suck it up. Buy quality.

[lom]

I Pity The OP That Just Wanted A Under $50 Trackball!

Show Image

Well, I guess he did ask for it in his post.

Nice one. But don't pity me, I always know what it's really coming when asking for recommendations in such a geeky community like this. Believe me when I say I've had my fair share of flamewar, still never feel enough :)

@Chimera: I do think TBO/TBE are solid products when it comes to trackballs, still I'm not going to bid over the odd for them even if I'm financial able. Let me explain why, in general I believe in "you get what you paid for" when it comes to commercial goods. A  Model M which used to be priced at several hundred bucks decades ago very likely costed IBM nearly as much money to manufacture, and that amount (of money) explains its famous tank-like quality, adding inflation and it's possible to partially justifies the currently very high prices comparing to modern mechanical kbs. Antiqueness, uniqueness, nostalgia... does the rest. In short, for me a device which costed $100 to make 20 years ago, is believed to be able to serve for 50 years (with good reasons), in good condition and not an ounce of practical value lost is acceptable at $100 todays.

 In case of Microsoft's trackballs, I understand they were widely available for fifty something (correct me if I'm wrong) when first released, naturally their manufacturing cost could only be as low, I believe quality and durability also went that way. By the same logic, to me they are products which costed $30 to make not a decade ago, are considered to be able to serve for much less than 50 years (again with good reasons), in good condition and not an ounce of practical value lost are only acceptable at certainly much much less than current asking prices, i.e upwards $100. Numbers may vary but my logic remains the same. Rareness, sought after-ness....makes up most of them hefty tags. Those are values I'm not ready to pay for.

 From a knowledgeable consumer's viewpoint (and certainly not a fierce fan), when brandnew high-end also proved highly functional trackballs from a respectable brand like Kensington are on shelves for $75-100 with years of warranty, software support in bleeding edge OS....taking risk with discontinued, used ones in grey market for the same or higher amount is downright unreasonable.
 
But that's just me and my n00by opinion. Feel free to bashing me if offended.