Author Topic: Fancy some advices before buying my first trackball  (Read 19217 times)

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Offline chimera15

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Fancy some advices before buying my first trackball
« Reply #50 on: Wed, 30 June 2010, 11:02:46 »
Quote from: lom;197871
Nice one. But don't pity me, I always know what it's really coming when asking for recommendations in such a geeky community like this. Believe me when I say I've had my fair share of flamewar, still never feel enough :)

@Chimera: I do think TBO/TBE are solid products when it comes to trackballs, still I'm not going to bid over the odd for them even if I'm financial able. Let me explain why, in general I believe in "you get what you paid for" when it comes to commercial goods. A  Model M which used to be priced at several hundred bucks decades ago very likely costed IBM nearly as much money to manufacture, and that amount (of money) explains its famous tank-like quality, adding inflation and it's possible to partially justifies the currently very high prices comparing to modern mechanical kbs. Antiqueness, uniqueness, nostalgia... does the rest. In short, for me a device which costed $100 to make 20 years ago, is believed to be able to serve for 50 years (with good reasons), in good condition and not an ounce of practical value lost is acceptable at $100 todays.

 In case of Microsoft's trackballs, I understand they were widely available for fifty something (correct me if I'm wrong) when first released, naturally their manufacturing cost could only be as low, I believe quality and durability also went that way. By the same logic, to me they are products which costed $30 to make not a decade ago, are considered to be able to serve for much less than 50 years (again with good reasons), in good condition and not an ounce of practical value lost are only acceptable at certainly much much less than current asking prices, i.e upwards $100. Numbers may vary but my logic remains the same. Rareness, sought after-ness....makes up most of them hefty tags. Those are values I'm not ready to pay for.

 From a knowledgeable consumer's viewpoint (and certainly not a fierce fan), when brandnew high-end also proved highly functional trackballs from a respectable brand like Kensington are on shelves for $75-100 with years of warranty, software support in bleeding edge OS....taking risk with discontinued, used ones in grey market for the same or higher amount is downright unreasonable.
 
But that's just me and my n00by opinion. Feel free to bashing me if offended.


This really doesn't apply to the TBE, you can't really base it's quality on price. I think the TBE started selling around $60-70 and eventually came down to around $40-50 before it was stopped.  There are also two types of tbe's, one screw and two screws.  The one screw variety are much rarer, and some believe they might be more durable, or use a different chipset in them.  

    Even today there are weird anomalies that are unexplained in the peripheral world, for instance the Scorpius m10 which is a 105 key blue cherry mx board, that costs half the price of a Filco with less switches, and costs way less than even raw switches cost.  Weird things happen with amounts that are bought/sold, and what prices things can be made and sold at, international shipping/politics, and how much retailers want to make on the items, and how fast they want to move the stock.


They were sold for $50-60 but in this case their value is way over $150, because there's nothing that has come after them that has been an acceptable replacement.  There have been acceptable replacements for model m's in over all capability.  Nothing has come close to a TBE.  That's why there's a huge movement to try to get Microsoft to bring them back:

http://my.galagzee.com/2007/07/03/microsoft-trackball-explorer/


Anyway, these were produced in China when there probably was a much better relative exchange rate, and you have to factor in various global economic factors for the time if you really want to base quality on price.  The fact that the TBE is no longer being produced to me is a sign of the fall of civilization as well. lol

The plastic quality is higher or equal to any trackball currently being produced, as well as the parts.  I doubt it could be produced and sold for less than $100 if it was currently on the market.

Another factor is Kensington is a much much smaller company than Microsoft ever was, so again it's like comparing apples and oranges for price.

Besides, there's also a huge discrepancy in price that the net has created:

http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/productdetail.aspx?sku=A0187943&dgc=SS&cid=27530&lid=627063&s=dhs
$61 for a Kensington expert at dell for instance, which is $20 below the market retail value of any other store.

TBE's were marketed before the web, or at least the major impact of the web, so that also has a huge bearing on what prices and the value of them were.

The only real major durability problem the TBE suffers is the cord after many years of bending back and forth can get worn, and the outer wrapping ground wires inside the cord can break and cause intermittentcy, but it's a relatively easy fix.  The chip set is rock solid and a completely failed TBE is really rare.

The ball and the carbide points have a basically infinite lifespan and or replacements, if you take care of them or where to buy them.

http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/PROD/Kit7801

  There are even ball polishers on ebay these days that will resurface a ball for like $50, for those tbe's that have been in heavy use for over 10 years.  There's an entire cottage industry that has grown up for servicing TBE's, so you don't have to worry about getting minor parts, or that they're not serviced by Microsoft anymore.

TBE's are probably the only mouse or trackball to have this kind of cottage industry surrounding them to keep them going.  TBE's have almost created a cult.  I doubt you'd have that kind of following surrounding any other kind of mouse or trackball.
« Last Edit: Wed, 30 June 2010, 11:32:21 by chimera15 »
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline ricercar

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Fancy some advices before buying my first trackball
« Reply #51 on: Wed, 30 June 2010, 13:24:40 »
I've owned every trackball that's ever been produced, and nothing would make me happier than if a $20 or even $70 logitech wasn't a piece of junk relative to the TBE. I would have bought 10 of em and outfit every computer I own with them, and paid a fraction of the price I paid for my current TBE collection. It has nothing to do with my personal opinion, it is an objective fact.
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Offline ricercar

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Fancy some advices before buying my first trackball
« Reply #52 on: Wed, 30 June 2010, 13:41:11 »
Quote
I've owned every trackball that's ever been produced

Wow. You must have incredible resources. And a time machine.

Actually, I don't believe you.

Flagrant exaggeration like this doesn't help an argument. You're saying you OWNED all trackballs back to the 1970s experiments at Xerox PARC? A Macintosh Portable, Duo 210, 230, 250, 2300? All the Dells, Gateways, Zeniths, NECs, IBMs, et al, that ever existed, OWNED, a SAIC milspec trackball? a Portable SPARCstation? Your claim is not convincing.

Quote
It has nothing to do with my personal opinion, it is an objective fact.

You need to become better acquainted with your dictionary. These words apparently don't mean what you think they mean.

Validating your subjective preference widely doesn't elevate your opinion into fact, regardless of the diversity of your experience. It is a fact you like product X, but it is not a fact that your opinion of product X holds true for every human on the planet.

Your argument is flawed.
I trolled Geekhack and all I got was an eponymous SPOS.

Offline itlnstln

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Fancy some advices before buying my first trackball
« Reply #53 on: Wed, 30 June 2010, 14:07:50 »
It's starting to sound like an argument out of this movie...



Offline ricercar

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Fancy some advices before buying my first trackball
« Reply #54 on: Wed, 30 June 2010, 14:43:37 »
I get to be Will Ferrell
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Offline chimera15

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Fancy some advices before buying my first trackball
« Reply #55 on: Wed, 30 June 2010, 16:13:14 »
Quote from: ricercar;198004
Wow. You must have incredible resources. And a time machine.

Actually, I don't believe you.

Flagrant exaggeration like this doesn't help an argument. You're saying you OWNED all trackballs back to the 1970s experiments at Xerox PARC? A Macintosh Portable, Duo 210, 230, 250, 2300? All the Dells, Gateways, Zeniths, NECs, IBMs, et al, that ever existed, OWNED, a SAIC milspec trackball? a Portable SPARCstation? Your claim is not convincing.



You need to become better acquainted with your dictionary. These words apparently don't mean what you think they mean.

Validating your subjective preference widely doesn't elevate your opinion into fact, regardless of the diversity of your experience. It is a fact you like product X, but it is not a fact that your opinion of product X holds true for every human on the planet.

Your argument is flawed.


Commercially produced, since the 80's, I said this earlier, and shortened it in that last post. Even so experimental is completely different from produced. It's probably about 20-30 different types of trackballs all together over 20-25 years.  There really haven't been that many.  Stop making straw man arguments, you're the one weakening your position.

If you really want to be specific, I own or have owned 80-90% of the trackballs on this site:

http://www.hykw.com/tbfan/gallery/index.shtml


Some of them are just stupid or silly, or essentially repetitive like the fish and kids trackballs.

As well there are some missing from that site like the logitech fx' serieses that I owned but sold when they started reselling for stupid money, when they don't even have scroll wheels.

Looks like they came down in price, trackballsrus selling them for cheap too:

http://cgi.ebay.com/USB-CORDLESS-TRACKMAN-FX-TRACKBALL-90-Day-Warranty-/260617108319?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cadfd7b5f


Further, subjectivity is a matter of perspective.  The larger perspective you have, the less subjective a subject matter becomes by definition.  With humans there will always be exceptions, all that matters is a majority.  For instance, obviously if you're left handed, a tbe won't be for you, and it's unfortunate, but it's your loss.

  That's probably what this is really about right?  Are you a lefty Ricercar? lol There does need to be a left handed TBE type trackball.  Even most of the logitechs aren't built for lefties, with the exception of the trackman marble, perhaps that's why others in this thread recommended it? lol
« Last Edit: Wed, 30 June 2010, 17:04:07 by chimera15 »
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline ricercar

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Fancy some advices before buying my first trackball
« Reply #56 on: Wed, 30 June 2010, 23:34:29 »
God shoots pool, but only with commercially released trackballs.
I trolled Geekhack and all I got was an eponymous SPOS.

Offline chimera15

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Fancy some advices before buying my first trackball
« Reply #57 on: Thu, 01 July 2010, 01:06:05 »
Quote from: ricercar;198183
God shoots pool, but only with commercially released trackballs.

« Last Edit: Thu, 01 July 2010, 01:17:40 by chimera15 »
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline ch_123

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Fancy some advices before buying my first trackball
« Reply #58 on: Thu, 01 July 2010, 04:55:37 »
Quote from: chimera15;198091
Further, subjectivity is a matter of perspective.  The larger perspective you have, the less subjective a subject matter becomes by definition.  With humans there will always be exceptions, all that matters is a majority.  For instance, obviously if you're left handed, a tbe won't be for you, and it's unfortunate, but it's your loss.


The problem here is that your testing parameters are subjective. Any time you attempt to rationalize them, you rationalize the G15 being better than a Model M.
« Last Edit: Thu, 01 July 2010, 05:02:22 by ch_123 »

Offline chimera15

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Fancy some advices before buying my first trackball
« Reply #59 on: Thu, 01 July 2010, 08:19:11 »
Quote from: ch_123;198224
The problem here is that your testing parameters are subjective. Any time you attempt to rationalize them, you rationalize the G15 being better than a Model M.

I already told you, the g15 is better than the model m, for everything but typing and durability.  So if you want to buy a keyboard and don't want to type on it, or for it to last more than a year or two, you should go for a g15. That's not subjective, that's objective.
« Last Edit: Thu, 01 July 2010, 08:21:57 by chimera15 »
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline ch_123

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« Reply #60 on: Thu, 01 July 2010, 09:48:08 »
Right, but I'm willing to bet that the MS trackball is neither the most durable nor well built trackball on the market, and thus there are better options.

Offline EverythingIBM

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Fancy some advices before buying my first trackball
« Reply #61 on: Thu, 01 July 2010, 14:21:51 »
Quote from: chimera15;198210
Show Image


Mark Twain and Benjamin Franklin were actually Freemasons... and that's not atheism 'cause you have to believe in some kind of divine power to join (i.e. "in who do you put your trust" -- "God"). I would assume Thomas Jefferson was too.

I'm not saying I agree with Freemasonry, just pointing that out.
Keyboards: '86 M, M5-2, M13, SSK, F AT, F XT

Offline ricercar

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« Reply #62 on: Thu, 01 July 2010, 14:40:50 »
Quote from: chimera15;198241
I already told you, the g15 is better than the model m, for everything but typing and durability.  So if you want to buy a keyboard and don't want to type on it, or for it to last more than a year or two, you should go for a g15. That's not subjective, that's objective.

Actually, that turns out not to be the case.

You still seem to have difficulty discerning subjective versus objective. Your blanket generalizations are not true for everyone in all cases, not even true for most people in most cases.

There are objective requirements contradicting your subjective evaluation of the G15 as "better" for everyone. For reference, here are a few objective traits that may cause a G15 to be inappropriate:
- need for lower cost
- need for a specific tactile feedback (e.g. mechanical switch preference)
- need for a particular rollover
- need for a particular size
- need for availability from a particular vendor

EDIT
Quote from: ripster;198362
Einstein didn't consider himself an atheist.  Stupid 4chan.

Agreed. Einstein was neither joking nor irreverent when he said God doesn't throw dice.
« Last Edit: Thu, 01 July 2010, 14:56:22 by ricercar »
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Offline chimera15

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Fancy some advices before buying my first trackball
« Reply #63 on: Thu, 01 July 2010, 16:43:15 »
Quote from: ricercar;198374
Actually, that turns out not to be the case.

You still seem to have difficulty discerning subjective versus objective. Your blanket generalizations are not true for everyone in all cases, not even true for most people in most cases.

There are objective requirements contradicting your subjective evaluation of the G15 as "better" for everyone. For reference, here are a few objective traits that may cause a G15 to be inappropriate:
- need for lower cost
- need for a specific tactile feedback (e.g. mechanical switch preference)
- need for a particular rollover
- need for a particular size
- need for availability from a particular vendor

EDIT


Agreed. Einstein was neither joking nor irreverent when he said God doesn't throw dice.


You guys should reread what I said.  I didn't say the g15 is better.  I said it was better except for the ability to type, which is kind of the main point of a keyboard isn't it? So that would actually make it worse.  I've said that twice now.

The only difference between subjectivity or objectivity is if something can be measured or not.  The performance of a peripheral can be measured, and it's perfectly clear that the majority of the measured data falls on the side of what I stated.  

The durability of other trackballs may be better, but the capabilities those trackballs with better durability are significantly less. Again, that is their main purpose of being trackballs is measurably less.    And again, a granite rock has more durability than any trackball, it doesn't make it a better as a trackball. Therefore as an objective statement they are not as good. As for the price thing as a point of value, would you pay $20 for a granite rock, that doesn't work as a trackball, or actually get something that does what you need for $100?

 You seem both seem to predicate your attempts at calling my statements subjective rather than objective that data regarding the performance of trackballs, or keyboards is immeasurable.  You seem to want to impune my experience as a trackball expert.  If so I suggest you gather a trial of right handers aged 20-70 and show that my data, and theories are inaccurate.   Either that, or state your expertise, and contradicting theories. At least say what you believe is the best trackball.  All you have done is say I'm wrong, that everything is subjective and can't be measured, that peripherals aren't science, and that they're the same as choosing a sandwich.  


The dice rolling comment that Einstein made was in response to a question he was asked about the nature of the universe, and frequently is mis-used out of context to say that Einstein believed in God.  Einstein as well as the others certainly did not believe in a Christian God, or in Einstein's case not a Jew in his beliefs.  By that measure they would be possibly considered atheists by Christians and Jews, if not others.  They believed more in a natural unknown explanation for things, or that basically we simply didn't know, which is more of an agnostic or even atheist view of things.  

 Certainly like any individual raised in a Christian religious society where 95% of the people believed in a Christian God, they were going to be reticent to fully proclaim themselves to be atheists.  There is evidence in records of letters and statements they wrote really to say either way.  But one explanation may be for instance, I'm a staunch atheist, but was raised by very Christian parents, and still in some situations it's a lot easier for me to behave as a Christian out of respect for others.  It doesn't have anything to do with my actual beliefs or lack of them.
« Last Edit: Thu, 01 July 2010, 17:34:17 by chimera15 »
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline ch_123

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Fancy some advices before buying my first trackball
« Reply #64 on: Thu, 01 July 2010, 17:33:34 »
Quote from: chimera15;198442
The only difference between subjectivity or objectivity is if something can be measured or not.  The performance of a peripheral can be measured, and it's perfectly clear that the majority of the measured data falls on the side of what I stated.


When comparing things, there are multiple parameters that can be considered. Often one item is better at one parameter than another, so the assessor has to determine which parameters are more important, which is often dependent on what the assessor wants. Thus the subjectivity.

Quote
The durability of other trackballs may be better, but the capabilities those trackballs with better durability are significantly less.


I would consider prolonged correct operation to be a highly desirable capability in anything I buy, would you?

Quote
Again, that is their main purpose of being trackballs is measurably less.    And again, a granite rock has more durability than any trackball, it doesn't make it a better as a trackball. Therefore as an objective statement they are not as good.  You seem both seem to predicate your attempts at calling my statements subjective rather than objective that data regarding the performance of trackballs, or keyboards is immeasurable.


The primary purpose of a trackball is move a cursor around the screen, and yet you claim that steel rollers that cut down on the need for constant cleaning and provide noticeably smoother movement are less important than non-standard mouse buttons? Ehh-ehrr, wrong answer.

Quote
You seem to want to impune my experience as a trackball expert.  If so I suggest you gather a trial of right handers aged 20-70 and show that my data, and theories are inaccurate.


Well, the burden of proof is really on you to provide some rational explanation as to why this MS whatsitsface is the only trackball worth buying, as opposed to being a good trackball that happens to be your personal favorite.

Offline chimera15

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Fancy some advices before buying my first trackball
« Reply #65 on: Thu, 01 July 2010, 17:47:48 »
Quote from: ch_123;198456
When comparing things, there are multiple parameters that can be considered. Often one item is better at one parameter than another, so the assessor has to determine which parameters are more important, which is often dependent on what the assessor wants. Thus the subjectivity.



I would consider prolonged correct operation to be a highly desirable capability in anything I buy, would you?



The primary purpose of a trackball is move a cursor around the screen, and yet you claim that steel rollers that cut down on the need for constant cleaning and provide noticeably smoother movement are less important than non-standard mouse buttons? Ehh-ehrr, wrong answer.



Well, the burden of proof is really on you to provide some rational explanation as to why this MS whatsitsface is the only trackball worth buying, as opposed to being a good trackball that happens to be your personal favorite.


The prioritization of capabilities of a peripheral is not subjective. The capabilities can be measured based on the amount of time each feature saves or adds comfort to the operation on a computer by a majority.



The primary purpose of a trackball, or any peripheral,  is to interact with a computer in the most efficient way possible, not simply to move a cursor around the screen.

Rollers don't affect the overall operation or capabilities of a trackball, and increase complexity in the device which cuts down on potential longevity.  You have to clean a TBE maybe once a week in heavy operation in a dusty environment.  If that's constant cleaning, which is simply accomplished in less than a minute of popping the ball out and rubbing the bearings with your finger, you must live in a lint ball or something.  It's really a push as far as metal rollers are concerned.

With the exception of metal rollers, the TBE beats or equals every other trackball ever commercially produced in every category for efficiency because of it's layout, for the majority.  It would take an extremely detailed and long post to go down the list of capabilities, let alone compare the TBE to every trackball.  I don't have that kind of time to devote to this. Maybe if you want to pay me I would. I have other things to do, so you'll have to take my word for it, and continue to think of my statements as subjective if you want.  I really don't care anymore.
« Last Edit: Thu, 01 July 2010, 17:56:04 by chimera15 »
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline ch_123

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« Reply #66 on: Thu, 01 July 2010, 17:53:00 »
Quote
The prioritization of capabilities of a peripheral is not subjective.


Go go random assertions!

Quote from: chimera15;198462
Rollers don't affect the overall operation or capabilities of a trackball, and increase complexity in the device which cuts down on potential longevity.  It's really a push as far as metal rollers are concerned.


Complexity? It's two free-rotating metal rods. Not exactly rocket science. And given how prone to being ****ed by dirt the little plastic bearings are, I'm confused by this claim that the use of metal rollers decreases a Trackball's lifespan. I call bull****.

And if it can't handle the basics, why bother with everything else? What was it that you were saying about the G15?

Quote
With the exception of metal rollers, the TBE beats every other trackball ever commercially produced in every category.  It would take an extremely detailed and long post to go down the list of capabilities. I don't have that kind of time to devote to this. Maybe if you want to pay me I would. I have other things to do, so you'll have to take my word for it, and continue to think of my statements as subjective if you want.  I really don't care anymore.


How convinient.

Offline chimera15

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« Reply #67 on: Thu, 01 July 2010, 17:59:39 »
Quote from: ch_123;198464
Go go random assertions!



Complexity? It's two free-rotating metal rods. Not exactly rocket science. And given how prone to being ****ed by dirt the little plastic bearings are, I'm confused by this claim that the use of metal rollers decreases a Trackball's lifespan. I call bull****.

And if it can't handle the basics, why bother with everything else? What was it that you were saying about the G15?



How convinient.

I knew you would attack that first statement, so I qualified it before I read your response.

What happens when those metal rods become worn as they will do, and the ball drops, and is no longer able to roll freely.  I've seen those metal rollers with a notch in them after heavy operation, and that effects the efficiency of trackball.  How are you going to replace them?  It'll take some doing.  I can order replacement bearings of the right size for the TBE even after the company no longer supports them, and they're cheap, unlike what those rollers would cost.


It has nothing to do with convenience.  It has to do with doing a huge mathematical proof that could possibly take me months on a subject that isn't worth it, just to prove to a couple people what should be obvious.
« Last Edit: Thu, 01 July 2010, 18:06:09 by chimera15 »
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
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Offline EverythingIBM

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« Reply #68 on: Thu, 01 July 2010, 22:32:00 »
Quote from: chimera15;198442

 Certainly like any individual raised in a Christian religious society where 95% of the people believed in a Christian God, they were going to be reticent to fully proclaim themselves to be atheists.


I thought Einstein had inclinations towards Judaism... I guess you could label it under "Christian" but they probably wouldn't like that heh.

Well that poster is actually inferring evolution rather than atheism. I think there's a different between believing in macro-evolution and atheism (one can not believe in gods but at the same time not believe in the theory of macro evolution).
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Offline ricercar

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« Reply #69 on: Thu, 01 July 2010, 22:55:47 »
> All you have done is say I'm wrong, that everything [Chimera said about objectivity in the "best" trackballs"] is subjective
> [snipped something I never asserted],
> that peripherals aren't science,
> and that they're the same as choosing a sandwich.

Agreed. I'm glad you understand what I'm saying. An assertion that the TBE is the "best" trackball for all people based on your experience is demonstrably fallacious, and not an effective argument for reasons I've already stated. Apparently at least one other agrees with me.

As far as a mathematical proof regarding a "best" of anything, I do not subscribe that such is possible for sandwiches or trackballs, for reasons I've already stated.

Onwards,

Quote from: Einstein
How can cosmic religious feeling be communicated from one person to another, if it can give rise to no definite notion of a God and no theology? In my view, it is the most important function of art and science to awaken this feeling and keep it alive in those who are receptive to it.

Quote from: Einstein
I maintain that the cosmic religious feeling is the strongest and noblest motive for scientific research.

Quote from: Einstein
It is cosmic religious feeling that gives a man such strength. A contemporary has said, not unjustly, that in this materialistic age of ours the serious scientific workers are the only profoundly religious people.

Source = New York Times Magazine on November 9, 1930 pp 1-4.
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Offline chimera15

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« Reply #70 on: Fri, 02 July 2010, 02:21:49 »
Quote from: ricercar;198549
> All you have done is say I'm wrong, that everything [Chimera said about objectivity in the "best" trackballs"] is subjective
> [snipped something I never asserted],
> that peripherals aren't science,
> and that they're the same as choosing a sandwich.

Agreed. I'm glad you understand what I'm saying. An assertion that the TBE is the "best" trackball for all people based on your experience is demonstrably fallacious, and not an effective argument for reasons I've already stated. Apparently at least one other agrees with me.

As far as a mathematical proof regarding a "best" of anything, I do not subscribe that such is possible for sandwiches or trackballs, for reasons I've already stated.

Onwards,

Source = New York Times Magazine on November 9, 1930 pp 1-4.

I don't believe I've argued that the TBE is the best for all people, but simply the majority. It's not simply my statement, it's the statement of hundreds of other TBE owners:

http://my.galagzee.com/2007/07/03/microsoft-trackball-explorer/




"The International Ergonomics Association defines ergonomics as follows:

    Ergonomics (or human factors) is the scientific discipline concerned with the understanding of interactions among humans and other elements of a system, and the profession that applies theory, principles, data and methods to design in order to optimize human well-being and overall system performance."



Ergonomics is a science, and therefore objective, and quantifiable.  If you choose to believe it's not, it's your loss.




Are those quotes by Einstein meant to show that he believed in God or not?  I would agree with those statements even as an atheist.

There are just as many quotes to say that he was an atheist or agnostic. He called himself both in different letters to people.  As I already said this is an old battle, and this kind of stuff is spread all over the net.   Using the dice quote to say he believed in God, however is wrong.

Quote from: Einstein;198549
>
I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal God is a childlike one. You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth. I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our own being.

http://atheism.about.com/od/einsteingodreligion/tp/Was-Einstein-an-Atheist-.htm



If you're going to quote me out of context, at least use the full quote.  That was such a ridiculous troll move.   I'm not responding to you anymore, as it's pretty clear from that that you're just trying to troll me, and not even reading half my posts.  So you win, congrats.
« Last Edit: Fri, 02 July 2010, 02:48:52 by chimera15 »
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Offline gr1m

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« Reply #71 on: Fri, 02 July 2010, 03:21:52 »
Ergonomics is not a clear cut science. It is very possible that an item that is comfortable to one human is not comfortable to another.

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #72 on: Fri, 02 July 2010, 04:50:20 »
Obviously there is going to be a basic set of parameters that are going to be universally comfortable to everyone. Beyond that, it's going to vary from person to person - preferences for things such as size, and location of the actual trackball and other considerations are going to depend on either the user's physique, or their subjective perspective.

Offline ricercar

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« Reply #73 on: Fri, 02 July 2010, 05:36:09 »
Quote from: chimera15;198601
I don't believe I've argued that the TBE is the best for all people, but simply the majority.


Neither.

Quote
Originally Posted by gr1m  
So you're saying that a person cannot prefer a specific trackball in the same way that they can prefer a specific mouse, keyboard or sandwich?

Originally Posted by chimera15
Not when clear capabilities are sacrificed. A person can choose to handicap themselves I suppose, but it's an illogical and unreasoned choice. That's not subjectivity.

 
Technically A person is neither all nor the majority. Unless you're speaking of some system in which only the choice of one person exists to determine the "best" ... say for example a persom's subjective opinion.

Quote from: ch_123;198619
Obviously there is going to be a basic set of parameters that are going to be universally comfortable to everyone.


really? everyone universally under all conditions?
« Last Edit: Fri, 02 July 2010, 06:10:30 by ricercar »
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Offline ricercar

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« Reply #74 on: Fri, 02 July 2010, 06:12:13 »
Quote from: chimera15;198601
I don't believe I've argued that the TBE is the best for all people, but simply the majority.


Neither.

Quote
Originally Posted by gr1m  
So you're saying that a person cannot prefer a specific trackball in the same way that they can prefer a specific mouse, keyboard or sandwich?

Originally Posted by chimera15
Not when clear capabilities are sacrificed. A person can choose to handicap themselves I suppose, but it's an illogical and unreasoned choice. That's not subjectivity.

 
Technically A person is neither all nor the majority. Unless you're speaking of some system in which only the choice of one person exists to determine the "best" ... say for example a person's subjective opinion.

Quote from: ch_123;198619
Obviously there is going to be a basic set of parameters that are going to be universally comfortable to everyone.


really? everyone universally comfortable under all conditions? Maybe "It has a ball. "
« Last Edit: Fri, 02 July 2010, 06:17:28 by ricercar »
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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #75 on: Fri, 02 July 2010, 07:23:38 »
What I'm getting at is that as long as it is not designed in a way that it is not ridiculously uncomfortable...

Offline ricercar

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« Reply #76 on: Fri, 02 July 2010, 14:20:41 »
Even Uma gets the blues

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