Need help finding "angled" gaming mouse

[MEjS]

First of all I hope I don´t get banned for making my first post not beeing about keyboards. I´ve been lurking theese forums for a few weeks before registering, I´ll buy a filco tenkeyless with swedish/finnish layout as soon as keyboardco got them back in stock. I promise!

A short story in order to explain why I need what I need:
Back in 1998 I used to have one of the best fps aims in the world (Rocket/shaft? arena, strategy wise I sucked to bad to be a top player in 1on1s/4on4s etc). Since then I´ve mostly been playing mmos but I´ve tried to make a "come back" into fps gaming a few times. Every try has ended in pure frustration though, I can´t stop my aim from jerking erradically and I belive I have finally figured out why. Back when my aim was great, my weapon of choice was a Logitech MouseMan 4 button ball mouse (no scroll wheel) if anyone remember thoose.
With my arm in a 90 degree angle, my elbow close to my body and with my forearm in a relaxed state, my palm is at about a 45 degree angle from the mousepad. I prefer using a palm grip when I play, with the step angle on the MouseMan my forearm stayed relaxed even when palming the mouse. If I try palming a more modern mouse like the Deathadder (what I use atm). My palm is close to parallel to the mousepad, I get tension in my forearm and the jerkiness begins.

Any advice is welcome (even not directly mouse related, change of grip etc), I got rather big hands so a mouse that´s bigger then the Deathadder is not a problem. I´ve considered buying the Qpad 5k, but even that one seem a bit to "flat" for me.

Another question, anyone else with a similar problem? I hope I´m not an anomaly, hehe.

[Brodie337]

Are we talking slanted as in to the left or right, or back and forth? Maybe some pics could help?

[vun]

Are we talking slanted as in to the left or right, or back and forth? Maybe some pics could help?

I did a quick google image search, looks like a very odd shape. Can't say I've seen any gaming mice with that shape. Though you don't really need a gaming brand mouse to do well. You could try looking up companies who specialize in ergonomic equipment.
I'd be interested in knowing what you find because I'd like to try a mouse with that shape.

[Fwiffo]

Have you looked at vertical mice?

[MEjS]

Are we talking slanted as in to the left or right, or back and forth? Maybe some pics could help?

That would be slanting to the right i suppose, i´m right handed when it comes to mousing.

Have you looked at vertical mice?

I´ve been considering the Evoluent VerticalMouse 4, from the looks I doubt it is easy to pick up that mouse fast though, in fast paced games. Looks a bit to clumpsy even for me..
Besides I need a gaming type mouse, one that is able to handle fast movements, I play with rather low sensitivity. A mouse that is maybe 1 cm higher and more slanted then the Deathadder would be perfect. I don´t think I need a full vertical mouse.

Thanks for the responses so far! I´m kind of "panicing" at the moment, I´m even considering buying that Steelseries Cataclysm mouse just because it is big and see if that helps, hehe.

edit: only picture i could find of my old mouse :/ Hard to see on the picture but the left button is positioned much higher then the right button.

[NOMiS]

The Evoluent is really good from what I hear in terms of the shape, but the sensor is **** and skips. You'd have to frankenmouse your DA into it.

I don't really know of any other mouse, but you could just try to mod a mouseman (or play someone to).

[Fwiffo]

Those Razer mice don't really have much of a slant at all. I use a Logitech G5, which has a significant slant, maybe 30 degrees. I don't know if the successor models have as much slant.

[NOMiS]

It skips at high speeds, much like a 3.0 at 1.5m/s.

[NOMiS]

I've never tried the Evoluent, but I'd rather take the word of a person that far surpasses the aim skill that an old man like you could ever achieve. I do have a 3.0 though, and I can confirm that it does malfunction at +1.5m/s for me.

[MEjS]

I liked ripsters review of the Evoluent mouse, thank you for the heads up, not sure I want to take the risk buying a mouse that might skip though. It would really piss me of. Other then that, how does it feel when playing games? Any akwardness/clumsiness?

I´ll look into that G5 Fwiffo, thanks.

So what mouse model is the most slanted (thanks for the word btw Brodie337, feels better then what I came up with, I need to work more on my english vocabulary) when it comes to "high end" (gaming) mice? Anyone knows?

[NOMiS]

Esr is where it's at for mouse stuff. They did the mousescore, and their forums have frequent discussions on mice old and new.

The graph is from here. It's quite similar to the esr mousescore, but they test newer mice.

I've been on ocn once, and the majority there is pretty much retarded.

[.XL]

OP, I have the same issue as you. Do you have big hands? I'm using the Mamba (same shape as the DA) and my forearms is always tight while using it. Almost all mice I used make me tighten my forearm. I think the remedy is a large mouse that can be palm-gripped, with a high arch in the middle to rest the palm at a comfortable angle on. Go to a local tech store and try out a Logitech G500...it felt pretty good on my hand, it might work for yours.

[MEjS]

I really don't recommend Geekhack so much for mouse info.

On the contrary I´m really liking the responses I´ve gotten so far from you and others. Coming from the infamous WoW-community I´m kind of biased when it comes to asking questions/asking for help "Sorry to bother, but could someone tell me.." "stfu, n00b" "ok..".
Because of you and NOMiS I now got some reading to do as well, thanks guys.

.XL, I think I got rather large hands. I saw someone else on this forum measuring the length of their palm up to the top of their middle finger, doing the same I measure about 21 cm. Sorry to hear that you got the same problem, but nice to hear I´m not a freak of nature, hehe. I´ll look into the G500 as well, considering how well I fared once upon a time with a Logitech mouse, going back to my "roots" might not be a bad idea.

[vun]

If the G500 has roughly the same shape as the G5 it's not very different from the Mamba, really. It just has the 'top of the hill' farther back, though I do find it to be more comfortable than the Mamba.

For big hands I'd recommend looking at the Razer Lachesis. A friend of mine with rather large hands is finding it great for him. Not sure what kind of grip he uses though, nor what grips are really viable with the Lachesis and it's odd shape. Still, if you can find one in a store or know someone with it, see if you can at least try holding it.

[MEjS]

Been reading a lot about various mice, sensors etc since I woke up. I was about to order a Qpad 5k. Heres a picture comparing it to the ikari:



The shape and size seem really interesting, but after reading that the Avago ADNS-9500 sensor has problems with positive acceleration as well as performance issues on cloth surfaces I changed my mind. I´m really picky when it comes to acceleration/sensitivity etc. Back in 2004 (last time i tried playing fps games regulary) I even calculated how to setup my in game sensitivity in order to have pixel perfect movement (no rounding errors on pixels, I´m rather good at trigonometry). Excessive for sure but thats the way I like it.

[vun]

If you like excessive you could just replace the sensor with a good one?
Sure, takes some work, but I would assume calculating sensitivity for pixel perfection does as well.

[MEjS]

I´ve always been more of a theoretical then practical kind of guy, things tend to break when I´m around them (doors, chairs, copying machines etc). Dismantling a new mouse right out of the box feels like a bad idea for me. Besides, a formula for pixel perfect sensitivity isnt that hard to figure out. I was one of the first to do it (I think), but I´ve seen the same formula as well as variations from others.

Edit: When I reread my post it almost sound like I was one of the first to come up with the idea of pixel perfect sensitivity. The idea came from a post on some quake forum, the poster hadn´t done any calculations for it though.

[vun]

In that case you could take a look at the adjustable Cyborg mouse. I'm not sure about the sensor quality nor the base size of it, but everything seems adjustable so you might be able to tune it to a shape that fits you.

[symphonic1985]

So this here was your mouse?

http://cgi.ebay.com/LOGITECH-MOUSEMAN-MODEL-M-CV46-/220764639753?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3366991209#ht_685wt_905

Do you still have it? If so I wouldn't hesitate to put the PCB from another mouse inside the body. It isn't too tough and you'd have exactly what you want.  High quality sensors can be found in cheap mice.

1/ Microsoft Wheel Mouse Optical -  tiny PCB, perfect tracking sensor up to 1.5 m/s
2/ A4tech X718 - same sensor as Logitech Mx518. Angle snapping but otherwise flawless tracking
3/ A4tech x750 - same sensor as Logitech g5

My favourite is the 1st one.

Otherwise, just get a WMO and mod the body to the shape you want. It starts off light at 75 grams so you can add a lot of material before you hit the weight of e.g. a Logitech MX718 at 106 grams.

[MEjS]

Yupp thats the one, and I still got it somewhere (not sure where though), I would never throw my all time favourite mouse away.

[MEjS]

I might be wrong but the cyborg mouse seem to be to flat for me, width/length is adjustable but not its height.

Last time I tried to fix anything I failed to glue the rare view mirror in my car back in place, got glue here and there and forgot the tube with superglue in the car in the summer heat. The day after when I got back into my car, the tube had erupted unifying the tube, my sun glasses and some papers with the car interior.

If I had a bit more confidence in my modding skills I would like to see the sensor from my Deathadder 3g in my old MouseMan thats for sure

[Bullveyr]

Back in 2004 (last time i tried playing fps games regulary) I even calculated how to setup my in game sensitivity in order to have pixel perfect movement (no rounding errors on pixels, I´m rather good at trigonometry). Excessive for sure but thats the way I like it.

You limited your actuall sensitivity (cm/360°) for a more theoretical benefit?

If I had a bit more confidence in my modding skills I would like to see the sensor from my Deathadder 3g in my old MouseMan thats for sure

The DA is very good for putting it into another mouse shell because of it's 2 part small PCB.

PS: Kinzuadder

[MEjS]

You limited your actuall sensitivity (cm/360°) for a more theoretical benefit?

Guess I´m derailing my own thread now.
In a game like Quake (and I assume most other fps shooters) you have parameters that control the angle of rotation when you move the mouse. Thoose commands in Quake1 are m_pitch and m_yaw and the value given is actually in degrees not radiants. The angle of rotation (I´ll simply call it A from now on) is then calculated by multiplying that parameter with your in game sensitivity. Looking at only horizontal movement that would be A = m_yaw*sensitivity. You can easily try this by setting m_yaw to 180 and sensitity to 1, you should be doing perfect 180s when moving the mouse, setting sensitivity to 2 would make you do 360s (not seeing any movement at all when moving the mouse).

The smallest step you can move your crosshair is one pixel (note that the distance to objects in game doesnt matter since your monitor is a 2D projection of the in game environment with a set resolution), but if A as an example is 0.7 pixels wide you will get rounding errors. If you move your mouse 1 dot A gives 0.7 pixels of movement that get rounded up to 1, if you move your mouse 2 dots, A gives 1.4 pixels of movement that get rounded down to 1. The effect is more noticeable with low screen resolutions and low dpi mice (i used to play quake with a 320*240 resolution).

What I did was calculating a value for m_yaw that with a sensitivity of 10 would give exactly 1 pixel of movement for every dot of mouse movement. That way, as long as i stayed with an even ratio of 10, it gave me a few options for valid sensitivites in game after setting m_pitch/m_yaw. Sensitivity of 5 = 2:1 ratio, of 3.333 = 3:1 ratio, of 2.5 = 4:1 ratio and so on, all with pixel perfect movement.

The formula looks like this:

A = m_yaw*S = arctan(2/R)*tan(fov/2)

Where A is the angle of rotation, S is sensitivity, R is screen resolution and fov is your field of view in game.

[noodles256]

get the gun mouse by zalman.

[Bullveyr]

Thx but that isn't new info for me.

The thing is that it will allways limit your sensitivity and the benefit decreases with a lower sensitivity (and ofc higher CPI).

Also, your CPI aren't 100% stable (at least with optical mice) allthough that doesn't really matter for that.

[MEjS]

I wouldn´t bother with it nowadays playing games on a full hd screen, was just telling what I did back in 2004 since I thought you asked.

I just red some about the zalman fg1000, thank you for the tip, the shape look somewhat interesting (I wouldn´t mind giving it a try), but very limited ways to change button configuration is not what I want in a mouse. As an example I use one of the thumb buttons on the DA for ctrl.

[Bullveyr]

320*240 was 2004 still very low, sounds more like 1994 (Doom afaik had 320*200).

[MEjS]

When I still had a CRT monitor I used to play quake/quakeworld software rendered, with very block like graphic settings (d_mipscale 50, d_mipcap 3).

[Brodie337]

Hmm... My Sidewinder X8 sits my hand on a slight slant, two fingers on top, two off to the right side, but that said, its a biiig mutha of a mouse. I'll take some pics tomorrow when I get home.

EDIT: Not my pic.

[noodles256]

I wouldn´t bother with it nowadays playing games on a full hd screen, was just telling what I did back in 2004 since I thought you asked.

I just red some about the zalman fg1000, thank you for the tip, the shape look somewhat interesting (I wouldn´t mind giving it a try), but very limited ways to change button configuration is not what I want in a mouse. As an example I use one of the thumb buttons on the DA for ctrl.

I just posted it since you wanted angeled.

it has a right angle on the mouse.

[MEjS]

Hmm... My Sidewinder X8 sits my hand on a slight slant, two fingers on top, two off to the right side, but that said, its a biiig mutha of a mouse. I'll take some pics tomorrow when I get home.

Sorry to bother, but would you mind taking some measures on that mouse? Height beeing the most important one. I think it just might be what I want. Trying out a wireless mouse feels like fun as well, I´ve never had one.

Also, I haven´t found much good info about that bluetrack sensor. Information about how it tracks on cloth and if it add any positive/negative acceleration would be really helpful.

[Brodie337]

I use mine on a black smooth cloth pad (Home made), and it works fine there, but it does seem a little picky about surface, for example, I cant use it on my leg when I'm just browsing the web.

I've heard mixed reports regarding acceleration and angle snapping, though I'm not a serious enough user to feel it, so I really can't comment I'm sorry.

One thing you will notice is that its a rather heavy mouse, mainly because of the battery, and the big rounded top is fairly sympathetic to users who angle their hand. I don't have it with me, but it's definitely higher than most mouse, but again, much more rounded in shape. I'll let you know when I get home.

[stupefaction]

Back when my aim was great, my weapon of choice was a Logitech MouseMan 4 button ball mouse (no scroll wheel) if anyone remember thoose.

It goes by many names, but I think you mean the Logitech Marble Mouse, don't you? I'm using one right now. Why not return to what worked for you in the past?

Logitech says it has discontinued the Marble Mouse, but I believe the Trackman Marble is the same device by another name. My advice to you and to everyone else is to buy one of these. Then throw out all your mice and buy three more of these.

[stupefaction]

Or you could use the scroll bar. There's one built into every window!

On the other hand, well, you could just follow ripster's advice and use the third-party driver. It is more efficient to scroll with your pointing device.

[Brodie337]

Here's some pics of the X8. Height is about 38mm.

Well there will be in a sec if PhotoBucket behaves...

EDIT:
http://s764.photobucket.com/albums/xx282/brodie337/Sidewinder/
Theyre posted there.

[MEjS]

It goes by many names, but I think you mean the Logitech Marble Mouse, don't you? I'm using one right now. Why not return to what worked for you in the past?

Logitech says it has discontinued the Marble Mouse, but I believe the Trackman Marble is the same device by another name. My advice to you and to everyone else is to buy one of these. Then throw out all your mice and buy three more of these.

Haha, although I´ve seen people do it and do it well, I´m not crazy enough to play games with a Trackman Marble. This is what i used:

Here's some pics of the X8. Height is about 38mm.

Well there will be in a sec if PhotoBucket behaves...

EDIT:
http://s764.photobucket.com/albums/xx282/brodie337/Sidewinder/
Theyre posted there.

Thank you, eventhough my DA is 4 mm higher, I think the difference in length would help with keeping my hand more slanted. I´ll give it some thought and then maybe order one tomorrow and try it out.

[Brodie337]

Maybe another option?


Mionix Naos 5000. I've never even heard of the company, but might be worth looking into.
http://ve3d.ign.com/articles/news/53092/Mionix-Naos-5000-Gaming-Laser-Mouse-Under-The-Microscope

[MEjS]

Unfortunately that one, as well as the qpad mouse I was interested in earlyer got the same sensor. Heres a funny article from Steelseries about the Kinzu mouse (the Kinzu got the same sensor as well, found the link on esreality) http://faq.steelseries.com/questions/194/Does+the+Kinzu+have+mouse+acceleration%3F

I´ve put in an order for that X8 now, together with a new mousepad (my old pad is getting a bit worn). I found a store that are selling X8s cheap, so I´m getting it 40 % cheaper than normal pricing.

[Arc'xer]

Unfortunately that one, as well as the qpad mouse I was interested in earlyer got the same sensor. Heres a funny article from Steelseries about the Kinzu mouse (the Kinzu got the same sensor as well, found the link on esreality) http://faq.steelseries.com/questions/194/Does+the+Kinzu+have+mouse+acceleration%3F

I´ve put in an order for that X8 now, together with a new mousepad (my old pad is getting a bit worn). I found a store that are selling X8s cheap, so I´m getting it 40 % cheaper than normal pricing.

Qpad, Mionix, and Xai use the ADNS-9500 which is considered to be one of the best sensor on the market even though it still has a little quirk to it; all three are laser.

The kinzu uses an optical engine from STMicroelectronic but there seems to be no info on which exactly is it.

320*240 was 2004 still very low, sounds more like 1994 (Doom afaik had 320*200).

I'm surprised you never bothered to upgrade your monitor. In 2004 you were still in CRT territory(though that was coming to end at around '04) and could have bought yourself a high-end aperture grille.

[.XL]

Qpad, Mionix, and Xai use the ADNS-9500 which is considered to be one of the best sensor on the market even though it still has a little quirk to it; all three are laser.

I've heard this as well. Though the Mionix Naos that uses the best laser is the 500; the one that the Naos 3200 uses is an okay sensor, but has acceleration, and that combined with the lowness of the mouse is why I ended up returning it to eBay.

I wanted to love it, I really did. The build quality was fantastic, the mouse itself had the perfect shape...if it was only as high or higher than my Mamba it would be the perfect mouse. Oh, and if it had no acceleration I would have gone with the 5000 if the size was good, though.

[wulax]

I was also a long time fan of the Logitech MouseMan but abandoned it in favour of the more accurate laser mice and later trackballs. The closest thing I have seen to the MouseMan is the Prio Vertical Mouse:




Looks quite solid but I have never tried it. Quite expensive here in Sweden it seems: ~$150.

[MEjS]

I was also a long time fan of the Logitech MouseMan but abandoned it in favour of the more accurate laser mice and later trackballs. The closest thing I have seen to the MouseMan is the Prio Vertical Mouse

Interesting mouse, it´s like a MouseMan on steroids, I have never seen that one before. I think it is a bit to extreme for my gaming needs though, something inbetween the height of that one and a regular gaming mouse would have been perfect.

I'm surprised you never bothered to upgrade your monitor. In 2004 you were still in CRT territory(though that was coming to end at around '04) and could have bought yourself a high-end aperture grille.

Around 2000/2001 I bought a (for me) very expensive sony crt monitor with a totally flat screen and awesome colors (I´ve forgotten the model name). It lasted me 6-7 years before it gave up on me, and thats when I bought my first LCD, early 2007. In general it took a very long time for most fps gamers (at least in Sweden) to change to LCD-panels, some quake players still haven´t. A friend of mine got his first LCD in 2008.

[vun]

Around 2000/2001 I bought a (for me) very expensive sony crt monitor with a totally flat screen and awesome colors (I´ve forgotten the model name). It lasted me 6-7 years before it gave up on me, and thats when I bought my first LCD, early 2007. In general it took a very long time for most fps gamers (at least in Sweden) to change to LCD-panels, some quake players still haven´t. A friend of mine got his first LCD in 2008.

A lot of FPS gamers still swear by CRT monitors it seems. Probably because of the 120hz rate.

[vun]

Still better than a PS2 controller in my opinion.

[Arc'xer]

A lot of FPS gamers still swear by CRT monitors it seems. Probably because of the 120hz rate.

120hz and then some. Many of the good CRTs were easily able to handle upwards of 200hz refresh rate at respectable resolutions. CRTs are a magnitude or two faster than LCDs for response times. Depending on the age and quality of the phosphor some CRTs albeit despite actuating at the speed of the electron gun, the phosphors usually operate in the microsecond(µs). Though phosphor decay can reach the low milliseconds range.

LCDs have gotten quite close to CRTs except primarily in motion(input lag, response times, refresh rates(120hz is a start but some want more) and black levels. I guess you can count resolution as well as some CRTs were capable of much higher resolutions like 2048x1536, 2304x1440 or even 2560x1920 or custom resolutions without any issues like non-native resolution fuzziness.

[vun]

You sound like you know a fair bit about CRTs, would a Samsung 950p be worth saving? I know one that's just sitting around that I could probably get for free, but not sure whether it's worth bothering with or not. Tried to look it up but the data I found was rather confusing.

[Chobopants]

Someone mentioned a Lachesis earlier. If you like the claw grip at all I highly recommend it. Also, being ambidextrous makes it <3<3<3 for me. I own 3.

[Bullveyr]

The kinzu uses an optical engine from STMicroelectronic but there seems to be no info on which exactly is it.

Avago actually sued ST because of that sensor.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=conewsstory&tkr=AVGO:US&sid=abQgAXjVtkIk

I've heard this as well. Though the Mionix Naos that uses the best laser is the 500; the one that the Naos 3200 uses is an okay sensor, but has acceleration, and that combined with the lowness of the mouse is why I ended up returning it to eBay.

Dunno how the Naos 3200 performs but the used sensor (Avago ADNS-3080) is actually one of the best ever made.

PS: The 3200 CPI are interpolated, it only has 1600.

[shade73]

I have used that exact same mouseman ever since it came out.  Greatest.Mouse.Ever.  I used the left mouse button for left movement, right for right movement, and middle for moving forward.  I know it sounds weird, but having every bit of moving and looking on one hand was just super natural after a while.  So anyway, you can probalby imagine my pain since I used a non-standard config and had to switch to a mouse with a mouse wheel.  I've been terrible ever since, b/c a mouse wheel doesn't do too well for forward movement, so I had to go to wsad.

So anyway, I *just* found this mouse today, and I'm thinking it will be perfect for both you and me.  It is angled to what looks like nearly exactly the mouseman, and allow me to lay my fingers over the buttons, just like old times.  Also I don't have to bend my fingers to use it like on most of the new mice (and yes, it's 3 true buttons!)  I've ordered one yesterday, and I can't wait to try it.  I have high expectations, and it better measure up!

http://ergo.contourdesign.com/products/product-detail.aspx?id=36