Author Topic: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice  (Read 25493 times)

0 Members and 4 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Leslieann

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1661
Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« on: Fri, 29 April 2016, 23:23:04 »
Background:
Omron switches are the common by far used in mice, however the naming scheme and rumors abound about what each does and is. Here I'll try and document as much as I can and dispel some of the mysteries. This took hours to compile, reading websites, pdf's and more, it contains all you should need to know.


Note:
Omron uses two naming methods. While I have not confirmed it, I suspect the numbers are different simply because one number is meant for a machine to install while the others are meant for individual sale/retail. The machine ones probably come assembled in trays or strips so the machine can feed them in quickly. This is backed up by the Asus ROG Spatha mouse which uses a machine numbers on the switches inside the mouse, but retail naming on the two switches included (this mouse allows the user to change them).

This guide covers both, but right or wrong about naming reasons, this is how they will be referred to in order to distinguish them.


D2F Switches:
The switches by Omron are all designated D2F, from there it gets a bit more complex. We'll discuss retail switches first, as once you understand them, you can more easily understand the machine switches.


D2F vs D2FC indicates origin and more. (Important!)
More
D2F = Japanese (always has Japan molded into top along with Omron label)
D2FC = China (may have China painted on side or top, or just a “C” in the model #)

Chinese models are mass produced and are considered to be a bit sloppy in tolerances, so one may have an actuation point a bit higher than another. Tolerances on these are pretty small so you wouldn't notice, but just know that they are more sloppy than the Japanese models.

Japanese models have much nicer internals, better tolerances, better metals,a stronger frame and are better sealed from dirt and moisture. They are also slightly taller and have a shorter actuation distance, it's for this reason they are not always interchangeable with Chinese models.

Which is better?

No question, the Japanese switch is better made, but unless you use it in a harsh environment, or plan on your mouse lasting 10 years or more it may not be worth the added expense or hassle to install them.

Warning: If your mouse has Chinese models, the Japanese models may not fit (unless there is a teeny bit of slop between button and switch itself, which is common). Most Logitech can probably handle it, but if not you can always file actuator. Just remember if you don't like it and try to go back to the Japanese version things will be very sloppy.


D2F vs D2F -01 (can be with or without the dash)
The next batch of numbers or lack of them is usually an 01, this indicates the spring material.
More
D2FC  Indicates a “silver alloy spring”
D2FC -01 Indicates a “gold alloy spring”
I put them in quotes because I suspect it means they are plated spring steel, not an actual alloy of the two materials as implied by Omron.

Which is better?
Gold is better at fighting corrosion, however it doesn't conduct as well and needs a bit more power to start conduction. In our situation, it doesn't matter much and given time and corrosion (tarnish), the gold will maintain it's level of resistance better. So unless you need the added conductivity for higher amps, gold is the better choice here as evidenced by the act that better mice almost universally use the 01.


Spring rates (-F)
More
The next important indicator you want to know is the -F
D2FC =150g actuating force
D2FC -F = 75g actuation force 

Which is better?
Now before you rush out and look for a -F, there are considerations here and it's really not that simple.
-F will obviously be easier to push and likely will last longer (irrelevant, you'll see). A non -F will have a much more solid click to it and a faster return. This is important if you play FPS and need to rapid fire. Most people tend to prefer the non -f, especially in gaming mice, but if you don't game the -f may be your favorite and I can see some of you already drooling, but...

Warning: I told you this wasn't that simple…
Switches have a max force rating which happens to be based on the switch and is typically 10x the actuation force. So if you tend to abuse your mice, the non -f can actually last much longer. Just another reason for gamers to consider the non -F. As you start pounding the button for rapid fire, you can easily exceed the -F's force limits which is only a little over a pound. This becomes more relevant in the next section.


Lifespan Will be labeled as D2F -01 (10M)
More
Remember I said lifespan on the -F was irrelevant, now you learn why.
There is a rumor that Japanese switches start with a lower lifespan and that the -F has a longer lifespan. This doesn't seem to really hold much water when you consider that Omron themselves labels them for you. Sometimes.

Warning: Keep in mind that these numbers are without any load, and they really do mean ANY load. If the mouse button rests on the switch button or your finger causes it to, then the lifespan will be shortened.  Anything touching that button shortens the lifespan. Your mouse may have some slop to prevent this when your fingers are off the mouse, but as soon as you put them on it, the lifespan is probably starting to drop as the weight of your fingers remove that slop. Personally, 10M last longer than 20M for me, see my note here.

Omron has multiple ratings:
(1M) = 1million presses
(3m) = 3million presses
(5m) = 5million presses
(10M) = 10million presses
(20M) = 20million presses

Unfortunately, the only surefire way to know for certain is with the part number as shown above as they didn't always mark them.  However they often coincided with the button color or a painted dot on top.

Some of the lower numbers the details are sketchy, but we don't really care about them anyhow.
Black  – no dot – (1M) = 1million presses (not verified)
Red or Yellow button or dot (3m) = 3million (not verified)
Red or Yellow button or dot (5m) = 5million (not verified)
Gray button and/or dot - (10M) = 10million
White button and/or dot - (20M) = 20million

The colors are also referred to as tops, so when someone says a “white top” Omron, they mean it's a switch rated for 20mil. Presses.

Caution: I don't recommend relying on the button color. MS has custom switches made for them (labeled MS) which can be different and I have seen white and gray botton Omrons with no (XXM) stamped on them. These are usually older models, but it's something to keep in mind. Dots and labeling is the only surefire way to know and a while lower numbers may not say it, you can bet a 20M is going to let you know it's a 20M.

I'll put a chart at the bottom showing what is using what that I know of and if others post I will try and add them.


Other random numbers and letters in the switch part number  Example D2F L3 -T
More
Frankly, you do not want any of these on your switch, as they pertain to the soldering terminals and different ways to actuate the button, almost none of which are useful to use. Note: Levers can be removed, so if you want a specific switch in a hurry and can only find it with a lever, you can always remove it from the switch and use it without problems, just be careful removing it.

L = Hinge lever
L2 = Roller lever
L3 = simulated roller
L30 = larger simulated roller
-T = self clinching terminals (this can still work in a mouse)
-A = right angled terminals
-A1 = left angled terminals
-D3 = big solder terminals
-D = compact terminals


Machine switch Numbers
More
D2F-F-7N  is Comparable to D2F-01F  (Japanese)  (Confirmed this is a 75g switch!)
D2FC-F-7N  is Comparable to D2FC-01F (Chinese)

D2F-3-7 is reportedly comparable to D2F-01F (but I suspect it's closer to D2F-01 due to lack of the N) (Japanese)
D2FC-3-7 is probably comparable to D2FC-01F (but I suspect it's closer to D2F-01 due to lack of the N) (Chinese)

Note: I do not know if the D2FC-3-7 exists, but I believe it might since the 7N has a Japanese and Chinese counterpart. A quick Google search turned up nothing.


Other Switch Brands
More
Yes, there are others that can be used. Lots in fact. Most agree that the Omrons are the best and by far the most common in quality mice, which begs the question, if they are the norm, why do people and manufacturers make such a big deal over Omrons. “Look, I have the same as everyone else!”
Various brands:
Kinzu, Kana, Himake, Panasonic, Huanos (loud according to TP4Tissue), Zippy, Qiaoh and TTF
Interesting ones:
TTF  is considered quietest
Zippy uses a coil spring so may be more durable


Popular Mice and what switches they use:
More
Almost all use a D2FC-F-7N the difference is the lifespan.
Asus
Rog Gladius = 20M (user replaceable)
ROG Spatha = 20M (user replaceable)

CoolerMaster
Storm = 10M

Logitech - Typically uses Omron 10Ms in most of their mice, however some gaming have used 20 lately.

G302 = 20M
G303 = 20M
G500 = ? (Note: double deck pcb makes it harder to replace switches)
G500S = 20M  (Note: double deck pcb makes it harder to replace switches)
G502 = unlabeled
G600 = 20M
G700 =10M (Note: double deck pcb makes it harder to replace switches)
G700S = 20M  (Note: double deck pcb makes it harder to replace switches)
G9 = 10M
G9X = 10M
G900 = 20M (possibly 10)
M705 Marathon = Himake switches

Master = 10M
MX Revolution = 10M
MX Performance = 10M

Razer
Deathadder 2013 = 10M

Steelseries
Sensei = 20M
Not all Steelseries use Omrons!


Sources
More
« Last Edit: Sun, 09 April 2017, 15:11:19 by Leslieann »
Filco MJ2 L.E. w/Vortex case, hand milled case, custom feet, custom paint, Klaxxon key caps, lubed and o-ringed Jailhouse Blues made from vintage Cherry MX Blues, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, removable cord, sound dampened. Winkey blockoff plate | Magicforce 68 w/Outemu Blues |KBT Race S L.E. w/Ergo-Clears, custom WASD keyset | Das Pro w/browns (Costar model) | IBM Model M (x2)

Offline infiniti

  • I <3 KB
  • * Senior Moderator
  • Posts: 2327
  • Location: Thrilla, Manila, Philippines
  • Bob was here
    • PM me and ask for a custom title!
Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #1 on: Sat, 30 April 2016, 00:05:54 »
Very informative.  Thanks, Leslieann! :thumb:

Offline tp4tissue

  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Posts: 10435
  • Location: Official Geekhack Public Defender..
  • OmniExpert of: Rice, Top-Ramen, Ergodox, n Females
Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #2 on: Sat, 30 April 2016, 03:56:08 »
I'm in the 01F camp because it is the Japan switch with the Thin-est spring.

I prefer as light a switch as possible..


The D2F-F should be more rigid, because that spring needs to be thicker to handle the higher amp rating.

Therefore it behaves less like a spring, and more like a lever..



In the end ,,  preference..


MX-Blue >> Topre 

Offline Leslieann

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1661
Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #3 on: Sat, 30 April 2016, 04:36:18 »
The D2F-F should be more rigid, because that spring needs to be thicker to handle the higher amp rating.
No, as per Omron, current has to do with type of spring type or spring coating (01), not spring pressure (-F).
Filco MJ2 L.E. w/Vortex case, hand milled case, custom feet, custom paint, Klaxxon key caps, lubed and o-ringed Jailhouse Blues made from vintage Cherry MX Blues, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, removable cord, sound dampened. Winkey blockoff plate | Magicforce 68 w/Outemu Blues |KBT Race S L.E. w/Ergo-Clears, custom WASD keyset | Das Pro w/browns (Costar model) | IBM Model M (x2)

Offline tp4tissue

  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Posts: 10435
  • Location: Official Geekhack Public Defender..
  • OmniExpert of: Rice, Top-Ramen, Ergodox, n Females
Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #4 on: Sat, 30 April 2016, 06:10:50 »
The D2F-F should be more rigid, because that spring needs to be thicker to handle the higher amp rating.
No, as per Omron, current has to do with type of spring type or spring coating (01), not spring pressure (-F).

Hrrrmmm.....


I know that silver tarnishes which is why it wouldn't be good for low voltage applications.

It seems to be consistent with their choice of gold-alloy for the 01F..

But you're saying this whole thing doesn't influence the thickness of that spring ?


The majority of the metal here is still copper though..  I don't see why they even need to plate it..

Silver tarnishes just like copper..



Well, maybe next time I'll buy some D2F-F, and take it apart to check.

Offline Leslieann

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1661
Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #5 on: Sat, 30 April 2016, 15:53:39 »
Silver tarnishes just like copper..


Silver needs a secondary element to make it happen, sulphur is the most common and it's found in eggs and mustard, which is why tableware tarnish. Copper will tarnish and oxidize simply from exposure to air and moisture, work with it a teeny bit and it's shocking how fast it does it, especially when exposed to heat.  The tarnish on silver is also easily removed compared to the carbonate that copper forms, simply operating the switch should keep it relatively clean provided it's a silver to silver contact. Not so with copper.
Filco MJ2 L.E. w/Vortex case, hand milled case, custom feet, custom paint, Klaxxon key caps, lubed and o-ringed Jailhouse Blues made from vintage Cherry MX Blues, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, removable cord, sound dampened. Winkey blockoff plate | Magicforce 68 w/Outemu Blues |KBT Race S L.E. w/Ergo-Clears, custom WASD keyset | Das Pro w/browns (Costar model) | IBM Model M (x2)

Offline louiscar

  • Posts: 3
Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #6 on: Sat, 23 July 2016, 17:23:32 »
Background:
Spring rates (-F)
More
The next important indicator you want to know is the -F
DCF2 =150g actuating force
DCF2 -F = 75g actuation force 

Thanks for this information, good to see the data in one place. I got here naturally because I needed to replace switches for my Steelseries Sensei RAW.

Just a couple of things: I presume the above was a typo - it confused me for a bit but I guess you meant D2FC not DCF2?

There is one switch I can't find here or what / where to get. This is the micro switch for the scroll wheel. It's a square format maybe 5-7mm and from what I can see has no markings on it.
On my mouse this is the one I really need to replace as it's stopped working. Any ideas what they use for this?

Offline Leslieann

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1661
Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #7 on: Sat, 23 July 2016, 20:19:44 »
Background:
Spring rates (-F)
More
The next important indicator you want to know is the -F
DCF2 =150g actuating force
DCF2 -F = 75g actuation force 

Thanks for this information, good to see the data in one place. I got here naturally because I needed to replace switches for my Steelseries Sensei RAW.

Just a couple of things: I presume the above was a typo - it confused me for a bit but I guess you meant D2FC not DCF2?

There is one switch I can't find here or what / where to get. This is the micro switch for the scroll wheel. It's a square format maybe 5-7mm and from what I can see has no markings on it.
On my mouse this is the one I really need to replace as it's stopped working. Any ideas what they use for this?
Good catch, it's now fixed.

The switch you are talking about is a Panasonic switch (based on pictures of the Raw torn down).
This should be it.
http://my.element14.com/panasonic-electronic-components/evqp0e07k/switch-6-2x6-2mm-0-74n/dp/2079570#ProductSubstitutes
Omron makes something similar (and 4x the cost) called a B3M-6009 tactile switch, scroll down on the link above and you will see that they interchange.

Don't rush out for the Omron thinking it's any better.
Filco MJ2 L.E. w/Vortex case, hand milled case, custom feet, custom paint, Klaxxon key caps, lubed and o-ringed Jailhouse Blues made from vintage Cherry MX Blues, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, removable cord, sound dampened. Winkey blockoff plate | Magicforce 68 w/Outemu Blues |KBT Race S L.E. w/Ergo-Clears, custom WASD keyset | Das Pro w/browns (Costar model) | IBM Model M (x2)

Offline tp4tissue

  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Posts: 10435
  • Location: Official Geekhack Public Defender..
  • OmniExpert of: Rice, Top-Ramen, Ergodox, n Females
Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #8 on: Sat, 23 July 2016, 21:04:32 »
Background:
Spring rates (-F)
More
The next important indicator you want to know is the -F
DCF2 =150g actuating force
DCF2 -F = 75g actuation force 

Thanks for this information, good to see the data in one place. I got here naturally because I needed to replace switches for my Steelseries Sensei RAW.

Just a couple of things: I presume the above was a typo - it confused me for a bit but I guess you meant D2FC not DCF2?

There is one switch I can't find here or what / where to get. This is the micro switch for the scroll wheel. It's a square format maybe 5-7mm and from what I can see has no markings on it.
On my mouse this is the one I really need to replace as it's stopped working. Any ideas what they use for this?
Good catch, it's now fixed.

The switch you are talking about is a Panasonic switch (based on pictures of the Raw torn down).
This should be it.
http://my.element14.com/panasonic-electronic-components/evqp0e07k/switch-6-2x6-2mm-0-74n/dp/2079570#ProductSubstitutes
Omron makes something similar (and 4x the cost) called a B3M-6009 tactile switch, scroll down on the link above and you will see that they interchange.

Don't rush out for the Omron thinking it's any better.

Those square switches are mushy..

Offline louiscar

  • Posts: 3
Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #9 on: Sat, 23 July 2016, 23:55:01 »

http://my.element14.com/panasonic-electronic-components/evqp0e07k/switch-6-2x6-2mm-0-74n/dp/2079570#ProductSubstitutes
Omron makes something similar (and 4x the cost) called a B3M-6009 tactile switch, scroll down on the link above and you will see that they interchange.

Don't rush out for the Omron thinking it's any better.

Brilliant! Thank you, hopefully I can get one in UK or ebay.
I see the switches I have in the RAW (actually a badged version) are 10M rather than 20M not that I'm bothered too much. I will probably change the lot and I have a second one in service which I had bought cheaply so I broke that one out to use, so no great hurry to get the old one back up and running.

It's curious that Steelseries decided to use a possibly less durable switch for the scroll wheel but I expect (as in most cases) it doesn't get as much action as the others do so they figured it'd probably last as long. It's the first to go in mine though as the other switches are all are fine.

Thanks again for your kind help.

regards

Louis

Offline Leslieann

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1661
Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #10 on: Sun, 24 July 2016, 00:04:19 »
Brilliant! Thank you, hopefully I can get one in UK or ebay.
I see the switches I have in the RAW (actually a badged version) are 10M rather than 20M not that I'm bothered too much. I will probably change the lot and I have a second one in service which I had bought cheaply so I broke that one out to use, so no great hurry to get the old one back up and running.

It's curious that Steelseries decided to use a possibly less durable switch for the scroll wheel but I expect (as in most cases) it doesn't get as much action as the others do so they figured it'd probably last as long. It's the first to go in mine though as the other switches are all are fine.
You're welcome.
Check Ebay.com (not U.K.), there is a person in the US selling the Panasonics for $2.25 each, I think it was.

I've got a few with 10m and a few with 20m, and I'm convinced the 10m can take more abuse.
 And yes, they use them because they suffer less abuse, I've never killed a wheel button.
Filco MJ2 L.E. w/Vortex case, hand milled case, custom feet, custom paint, Klaxxon key caps, lubed and o-ringed Jailhouse Blues made from vintage Cherry MX Blues, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, removable cord, sound dampened. Winkey blockoff plate | Magicforce 68 w/Outemu Blues |KBT Race S L.E. w/Ergo-Clears, custom WASD keyset | Das Pro w/browns (Costar model) | IBM Model M (x2)

Offline louiscar

  • Posts: 3
Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #11 on: Sun, 24 July 2016, 00:17:25 »

You're welcome.
Check Ebay.com (not U.K.), there is a person in the US selling the Panasonics for $2.25 each, I think it was.

I've got a few with 10m and a few with 20m, and I'm convinced the 10m can take more abuse.
 And yes, they use them because they suffer less abuse, I've never killed a wheel button.

Thanks, yes I hardly used the scroll button - certainly never on the desktop applications but I had a couple of games that made use of it extensively so this probably took it to the end of it's life.

I've found the Omrons on ebay but also I see the equivalent to element14 here are Farnell.com and they do the switch. Judging by their postage I thought I'd maybe order the Omrons from them but they don't do the D2f-F-7N and I note your comment on fitting the Jap vs Chinese switches. The seem to do a slightly different range. Maybe the D2F01F is the closest I can see that may fit the bill?

http://uk.farnell.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Search?catalogId=15001&langId=44&storeId=10151&categoryName=All%20Categories&selectedCategoryId=&gs=true&st=omron%20d2f

btw. there are a couple more transpositions to edit, (DF2 instead of D2F:

Quote
DF2 vs DF2 -01 (can be with or without the dash)
The next batch of numbers or lack of them is usually an 01, this indicates the spring material.
Less
DF2C  Indicates a “silver alloy spring”
DF2C -01 Indicates a “gold alloy spring”

Easily done. :-)

EDIT:
Just took off the top section to check the switches used for the side and top. I hadn't unscrewed this board yet. Looks like the switches on these are TTC and the legs are right angle. They look exactly the same size and so I expect interchangeable but I don't have any other markings on the switch to check. Another Panasonic in the middle for the toggle.
« Last Edit: Sun, 24 July 2016, 00:38:25 by louiscar »

Offline Leslieann

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1661
Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #12 on: Sun, 24 July 2016, 16:00:44 »
The D2F01F should probably work. IF your button has a bit of slop, almost all of them do, however it will probably not last as long since anything resting on the switch will shorten the lifespan.

No idea on the other switches.
Filco MJ2 L.E. w/Vortex case, hand milled case, custom feet, custom paint, Klaxxon key caps, lubed and o-ringed Jailhouse Blues made from vintage Cherry MX Blues, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, removable cord, sound dampened. Winkey blockoff plate | Magicforce 68 w/Outemu Blues |KBT Race S L.E. w/Ergo-Clears, custom WASD keyset | Das Pro w/browns (Costar model) | IBM Model M (x2)

Offline tp4tissue

  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Posts: 10435
  • Location: Official Geekhack Public Defender..
  • OmniExpert of: Rice, Top-Ramen, Ergodox, n Females
Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #13 on: Mon, 25 July 2016, 14:14:59 »
Recently got some huano switches.. Man these things are LOUD.. extremely bright sound..

I like the D2F01F better because it's much less annoying..

Offline Panp858

  • Posts: 12
Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #14 on: Sat, 29 October 2016, 06:32:41 »
First of all thank you Leslieann for doing so much research.

Atm I have a mice on my desk which uses two D2FC-F-7N(10M) for the main buttons. But differently than expected the case has a white button and no clear point in any color. So this mismatches the information you have given.

Another points is the "Machine switch Numbers". As far as I understood your writing the machine versions are only for component placement systems while the others are for the "retail market" so to say. Anyway what does your sentence "D2FC-F-7N  is Comparable to D2FC-01F" mean in that context. Are these the same products differently labeled?

Thanks for your help!

Online E3E

  • Posts: 2729
  • Location: New Orleans
  • Alps Evangelist
Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #15 on: Sat, 29 October 2016, 06:46:14 »
My Logitech M705 Marathon originally had Himake switches before I swapped them both for Omrons after one switch started double-clicking. 
 
The Himakes lasted me many many years though, so I have nothing bad to say about them.
MIRAMASA | FJELL | HAMMER | ORION | LIGHTPAD | NCR

Offline Leslieann

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1661
Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #16 on: Sat, 29 October 2016, 16:26:22 »
First of all thank you Leslieann for doing so much research.

Atm I have a mice on my desk which uses two D2FC-F-7N(10M) for the main buttons. But differently than expected the case has a white button and no clear point in any color. So this mismatches the information you have given.

Another points is the "Machine switch Numbers". As far as I understood your writing the machine versions are only for component placement systems while the others are for the "retail market" so to say. Anyway what does your sentence "D2FC-F-7N  is Comparable to D2FC-01F" mean in that context. Are these the same products differently labeled?

Thanks for your help!
You're welcome.

Button color was in regards to lifespan, for a while used this or painted dots. They abandoned that method in favor of just writing it on the sides


As for "machine"
Yes, I believe they are the same product, just packaged differently for ease of machine installation.
See how these resistors are assembled in a batch for a machine to install them, same thing, but a strip of switches.
151532-0



They do similar with capacitors and leds, so why not switches. Keep in mind, this is just what I suspect based on the evidence I can find, I have no hard proof of it as trying to track down OEM supplied D2FC-F-7N isn't easy as the internet has become so polluted by people trying to locate them. The best evidence for this comes from Asus, the Spatha mouse comes with D2FC-F-7N's pre installed (it's done by a machine) but the spare switch they ship it with are D2F-01F,  which was meant for hand assembly.

And yes, I do find it odd they use Chinese internal, but Japanese for hand, it probably just came down to source and convenience. The company doing assembly probably has pallets of 7N's in strips ready to go, but someone had to source the individual switches to include.
Filco MJ2 L.E. w/Vortex case, hand milled case, custom feet, custom paint, Klaxxon key caps, lubed and o-ringed Jailhouse Blues made from vintage Cherry MX Blues, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, removable cord, sound dampened. Winkey blockoff plate | Magicforce 68 w/Outemu Blues |KBT Race S L.E. w/Ergo-Clears, custom WASD keyset | Das Pro w/browns (Costar model) | IBM Model M (x2)

Offline Leslieann

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1661
Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #17 on: Sat, 29 October 2016, 17:01:28 »
Updates and observations:
7n switches
As noted above I found some info about the Asus Spatha mouse which sort corroborates the machine info, but also led to me finding more info about the 7N switch, which apparently comes in both Japanese and Chinese flavors.

I also added a bit about the 3-7 switch, basically assuming that it two has a Japanese and Chinese counterpart.


Something I've personally noticed regarding lifespan,
I have found that at least in my case, that 20M switches are not as durable as 10M switches. While this at first runs counter to Omron, if you remember when I said resting your finger on the button shortens the lifespan, it's possible that the 20Ms are more easily damaged. So while a 10M may be rated for 10mil clicks, resting your finger on it may shorten it to say 9million clicks, while resting your finger on a 20M may shorten it to 5mil clicks.

In all fairness, this could just be a change in my use pattern, a change in Omron's production or Logitech's production as the 20s are a recent change for Logitech and their manufacturing has changed so it could be the supplier. Hard to say, but so far I have not been impressed with 20s.
Filco MJ2 L.E. w/Vortex case, hand milled case, custom feet, custom paint, Klaxxon key caps, lubed and o-ringed Jailhouse Blues made from vintage Cherry MX Blues, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, removable cord, sound dampened. Winkey blockoff plate | Magicforce 68 w/Outemu Blues |KBT Race S L.E. w/Ergo-Clears, custom WASD keyset | Das Pro w/browns (Costar model) | IBM Model M (x2)

Offline tp4tissue

  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Posts: 10435
  • Location: Official Geekhack Public Defender..
  • OmniExpert of: Rice, Top-Ramen, Ergodox, n Females
Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #18 on: Sat, 29 October 2016, 21:05:10 »
Logitech has the little H shaped plunger bar to reduce over-travel..

Whereas many other mouse housings do not.  like microsoft wmo.. it's just a straight piece..


So if you're comparing , that should be taken into account.  where the H bar would increase the durability of the switch regardless of the switch rating..

OR perhaps that switch rating was only possible using logitech's h-bar..   as in the other way around..


We're never gonna really know because we can't test this.

Offline Leslieann

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1661
Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #19 on: Sat, 29 October 2016, 23:29:56 »
Logitech has the little H shaped plunger bar to reduce over-travel..

Whereas many other mouse housings do not.  like microsoft wmo.. it's just a straight piece..


So if you're comparing , that should be taken into account.  where the H bar would increase the durability of the switch regardless of the switch rating..

Actually Microsoft has a special line of switches from Omron (marked with an M or S, I think), however that isn't what I was referring to.

From the OP,
Warning: Keep in mind that these numbers are without any load, and they really do mean ANY load. If the mouse button rests on the switch button or your finger causes it to, then the lifespan will be shortened. Anything touching that button shortens the lifespan. Your mouse may have some slop to prevent this when your fingers are off the mouse, but as soon as you put them on it, the lifespan is probably starting to drop as the weight of your fingers remove that slop.
Filco MJ2 L.E. w/Vortex case, hand milled case, custom feet, custom paint, Klaxxon key caps, lubed and o-ringed Jailhouse Blues made from vintage Cherry MX Blues, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, removable cord, sound dampened. Winkey blockoff plate | Magicforce 68 w/Outemu Blues |KBT Race S L.E. w/Ergo-Clears, custom WASD keyset | Das Pro w/browns (Costar model) | IBM Model M (x2)

Offline Elrick

  • Hype Master
  • Posts: 4837
  • Location: CrapTown, Convict Settlement
  • Keyboard Orgasmist
Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #20 on: Sun, 30 October 2016, 02:39:52 »
Something I've personally noticed regarding lifespan,
I have found that at least in my case, that 20M switches are not as durable as 10M switches. While this at first runs counter to Omron, if you remember when I said resting your finger on the button shortens the lifespan, it's possible that the 20Ms are more easily damaged. So while a 10M may be rated for 10mil clicks, resting your finger on it may shorten it to say 9million clicks, while resting your finger on a 20M may shorten it to 5mil clicks.

In all fairness, this could just be a change in my use pattern, a change in Omron's production or Logitech's production as the 20s are a recent change for Logitech and their manufacturing has changed so it could be the supplier. Hard to say, but so far I have not been impressed with 20s.

Personally I stopped caring about what type of Omron is inside of any mouse model.  If the mouse initially feels good then I leave things alone BUT if the button feels soft or no click is present when pressed numerous times, then it's opened up to replace the unruly beggars inside.

Of course due to my hands and fingers I'm incapable of handling such tiny buttons with solder and cleaning, so I let my niece do the removing of the switches and soldering new ones in.  She has in fact saved a lot of mice from the bin and I have to say you youngsters with long and slender fingers are well worth your weight in Gold.
« Last Edit: Sun, 30 October 2016, 02:41:35 by Elrick »

Offline nyunyu

  • Posts: 57
  • Location: Budapest, Hungary
Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #21 on: Sun, 30 October 2016, 08:23:09 »
Something I've personally noticed regarding lifespan,
I have found that at least in my case, that 20M switches are not as durable as 10M switches.

Do not bother with chinese Omrons.

Japanese Omrons are rated only as 1M click, but they have much sturdier structure, so they will outlive any of the 10M-20M switches.

On my last MX Revo mouse I swapped the standard chinese swithes to D2F-01F immediatelly.
That was 5 years ago, mouse is still in great condition.

The D2FC-F-something switches in my previous 2 MX Revos haven't survived till their 3rd birthday, both failed after 2.5 and 2.75 years.

Also I don't like the sound and the feel of the chinese Omrons.

Small notice: japanese Omrons have 0.1mm taller stem, that can be a problem on non Logitech mice.
Razer users have complained about the extra tension on the mouse top.

BTW, Logitech used D2F-F switches in their high end mice 20 years ago, meanwhile their OEM mice used noname switches like Huano or Zhij.
They abandoned this habit in '99, since then all mice are manufactured with various chinese Omron D2FC-F-s.

My friends and I had 3 MouseMan+ mice with japanese D2F-F switches, first switch failure occured after 4 years, 2 other mice worked for 5+ years.
« Last Edit: Sun, 30 October 2016, 08:48:36 by nyunyu »

Offline suicidal_orange

  • * Global Moderator
  • Posts: 2636
  • Location: England
Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #22 on: Sun, 30 October 2016, 09:08:54 »
Thanks for the info :thumb:

Before I went shopping thought it might be a good idea to check the switches in my CM Inferno are compatible.  They are marked ZHIJ so looking at this pic (of a different CM mouse) with one next to an Omron it looks good to me?

I was surprised to see both failing switcbes are red (there are greens in there too) as left click gets way more use but middle has been failing for months and left only started playing up recently.  Needless to say this is not usable so it's repair or replace time.
                               
Ducky Zero, MX Reds    JD40, Jailhouse Blues           GH60
Soarer controller

Offline tp4tissue

  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Posts: 10435
  • Location: Official Geekhack Public Defender..
  • OmniExpert of: Rice, Top-Ramen, Ergodox, n Females
Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #23 on: Sun, 30 October 2016, 10:22:22 »
Thanks for the info :thumb:

Before I went shopping thought it might be a good idea to check the switches in my CM Inferno are compatible.  They are marked ZHIJ so looking at this pic (of a different CM mouse) with one next to an Omron it looks good to me?

I was surprised to see both failing switcbes are red (there are greens in there too) as left click gets way more use but middle has been failing for months and left only started playing up recently.  Needless to say this is not usable so it's repair or replace time.

Keep in mind..   nyunyu--   is a biased, japanophile..

Tp4 am the largest proponent of D2F-F japan,   ,  I use them in all my stuff..

However,  I've personally worn out only 2x  D2FC-7N (China 20mil), switches.

I've also worn out 2x D2F-F (japan), switches..


So,  these personal experiences are by NO MEANS a true assessment of the reliability of the switches..


In general,  the only validation is done on the side of Logitech,  as they ACTUALLY TEST the switches to 20 mil clicks.. which takes months..

So,  IMHO,  as far as any engineering opinion can be given,   Our only reference point IS the logitech rating they stamp on the switches which comes out to 20Mil...







Offline nyunyu

  • Posts: 57
  • Location: Budapest, Hungary
Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #24 on: Sun, 30 October 2016, 11:32:35 »
Quote
MX Revolution = 10M

I definitelly remember, that my first MX Revolution ('06) used regular D2FC-F-7N.
But I found 4 (10M) switches in my cookie jar, they might have been in my newer Revos ('07 and BT models)



Left to right:
japanese D2F-L (gray button): I bought these 10 years ago for MX1000 repair attempt, but these are regular D2Fs, NOT the soft D2F-F series. Very stiff :(
japanese D2F-01F (gray button): I use them as daily driver in all my mice
chinese D2FC-F-7N (white button): from MX700 or MX1000 or MX Revo '06
chinese D2FC-F-7N (10M) (lightgray button): from newer MX Revos ('07 or BT)

Seems like the older chinese switch is made of pure uncoated copper, the newer (10M) one has some coating, just like the japanese.
The coating on the regular japanese switch is darker, contains less gold than the coating on the low-current -01 series.

I'm not sure about the button color theory in case of Omron switches.
3M rated chinese Omrons found in some Razer mice had red buttons, but all others have gray or white button, depending of the origin.

As I know, TTC used button color as indicator of the durability, but their webpage with the exact specs is no longer available  :( )

BTW, I have seen a very different chinese Omron switch in Gigabyte mice several years ago.
Their housing was almost exact copy of the japanese Omrons, but had "Omron China" written on the top, and D2F-J01F was the model name.
Now these switches can be found under Qiaoh brand, and manufactured under Omron's license:
http://www.qiaoh.com/en/product-show.asp?id=132
« Last Edit: Sun, 30 October 2016, 12:48:08 by nyunyu »

Offline nyunyu

  • Posts: 57
  • Location: Budapest, Hungary
Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #25 on: Sun, 30 October 2016, 13:43:45 »
Hmm, I found my old MouseMan+ mouse (bought it in 98), it has red Omron D2F-F-3-7 switches under the main buttons, and Cherry DB2 as side button.

Well, those "3M" rated switches lasted far longer, than the default chinese Omrons found in my MX700, MX1000, MX Revo mices. :)

Offline Leslieann

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1661
Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #26 on: Mon, 31 October 2016, 01:14:41 »
Do not bother with chinese Omrons.
Oh, I entirely agree, I wouldn't swap out working Chinese Omrons, but if I have to replace them, they're getting Japanese switches. The price difference isn't a big deal and even if it only buys me even a few extra months it's worth the money to save the effort.
Filco MJ2 L.E. w/Vortex case, hand milled case, custom feet, custom paint, Klaxxon key caps, lubed and o-ringed Jailhouse Blues made from vintage Cherry MX Blues, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, removable cord, sound dampened. Winkey blockoff plate | Magicforce 68 w/Outemu Blues |KBT Race S L.E. w/Ergo-Clears, custom WASD keyset | Das Pro w/browns (Costar model) | IBM Model M (x2)

Offline DanD3n

  • Posts: 26
  • Location: EU, Ro
Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #27 on: Fri, 02 December 2016, 04:42:59 »
Wow, very informative and useful, thank you! I need to replace the switches on a couple of mice, but is there one in particular that's more quiet?

Offline Leslieann

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1661
Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #28 on: Sat, 03 December 2016, 03:06:44 »
Wow, very informative and useful, thank you! I need to replace the switches on a couple of mice, but is there one in particular that's more quiet?
You're welcome.

Softer click is quieter, however, many people think they are less pleasing to click as a result.
There are also some new switches that are supposed to be really quiet, however I haven't seen them, nor do I know if they are compatible.
Filco MJ2 L.E. w/Vortex case, hand milled case, custom feet, custom paint, Klaxxon key caps, lubed and o-ringed Jailhouse Blues made from vintage Cherry MX Blues, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, removable cord, sound dampened. Winkey blockoff plate | Magicforce 68 w/Outemu Blues |KBT Race S L.E. w/Ergo-Clears, custom WASD keyset | Das Pro w/browns (Costar model) | IBM Model M (x2)

Offline rabbitfire

  • Posts: 216
  • Location: Rainforest
Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #29 on: Mon, 26 December 2016, 04:55:28 »
Background:
Omron switches are the common by far used in mice, however the naming scheme and rumors abound about what each does and is. Here I'll try and document as much as I can and dispel some of the mysteries. This took hours to compile, reading websites, pdf's and more, it contains all you should need to know.


Note:
Omron uses two naming methods. While I have not confirmed it, I suspect the numbers are different simply because one number is meant for a machine to install while the others are meant for individual sale/retail. The machine ones probably come assembled in trays or strips so the machine can feed them in quickly. This is backed up by the Asus ROG Spatha mouse which uses a machine numbers on the switches inside the mouse, but retail naming on the two switches included (this mouse allows the user to change them).

This guide covers both, but right or wrong about naming reasons, this is how they will be referred to in order to distinguish them.


D2F Switches:
The switches by Omron are all designated D2F, from there it gets a bit more complex. We'll discuss retail switches first, as once you understand them, you can more easily understand the machine switches.


D2F vs D2FC indicates origin and more. (Important!)
More
D2F = Japanese (always has Japan molded into top along with Omron label)
D2FC = China (may have China painted on side or top, or just a “C” in the model #)

Chinese models are mass produced and are considered to be a bit sloppy in tolerances, so one may have an actuation point a bit higher than another. Tolerances on these are pretty small so you wouldn't notice, but just know that they are more sloppy than the Japanese models.

Japanese models have much nicer internals, better tolerances, better metals,a stronger frame and are better sealed from dirt and moisture. They are also slightly taller and have a shorter actuation distance, it's for this reason they are not always interchangeable with Chinese models.

Which is better?

No question, the Japanese switch is better made, but unless you use it in a harsh environment, or plan on your mouse lasting 10 years or more it may not be worth the added expense or hassle to install them.

Warning: If your mouse has Chinese models, the Japanese models may not fit (unless there is a teeny bit of slop between button and switch itself, which is common). Most Logitech can probably handle it, but if not you can always file actuator. Just remember if you don't like it and try to go back to the Japanese version things will be very sloppy.


D2F vs D2F -01 (can be with or without the dash)
The next batch of numbers or lack of them is usually an 01, this indicates the spring material.
More
D2FC  Indicates a “silver alloy spring”
D2FC -01 Indicates a “gold alloy spring”
I put them in quotes because I suspect it means they are plated spring steel, not an actual alloy of the two materials as implied by Omron.

Which is better?
Gold is better at fighting corrosion, however it doesn't conduct as well and needs a bit more power to start conduction. In our situation, it doesn't matter much and given time and corrosion (tarnish), the gold will maintain it's level of resistance better. So unless you need the added conductivity for higher amps, gold is the better choice here as evidenced by the act that better mice almost universally use the 01.


Spring rates (-F)
More
The next important indicator you want to know is the -F
D2FC =150g actuating force
D2FC -F = 75g actuation force 

Which is better?
Now before you rush out and look for a -F, there are considerations here and it's really not that simple.
-F will obviously be easier to push and likely will last longer (irrelevant, you'll see). A non -F will have a much more solid click to it and a faster return. This is important if you play FPS and need to rapid fire. Most people tend to prefer the non -f, especially in gaming mice, but if you don't game the -f may be your favorite and I can see some of you already drooling, but...

Warning: I told you this wasn't that simple…
Switches have a max force rating which happens to be based on the switch and is typically 10x the actuation force. So if you tend to abuse your mice, the non -f can actually last much longer. Just another reason for gamers to consider the non -F. As you start pounding the button for rapid fire, you can easily exceed the -F's force limits which is only a little over a pound. This becomes more relevant in the next section.


Lifespan Will be labeled as D2F -01 (10M)
More
Remember I said lifespan on the -F was irrelevant, now you learn why.
There is a rumor that Japanese switches start with a lower lifespan and that the -F has a longer lifespan. This doesn't seem to really hold much water when you consider that Omron themselves labels them for you. Sometimes.

Warning: Keep in mind that these numbers are without any load, and they really do mean ANY load. If the mouse button rests on the switch button or your finger causes it to, then the lifespan will be shortened.  Anything touching that button shortens the lifespan. Your mouse may have some slop to prevent this when your fingers are off the mouse, but as soon as you put them on it, the lifespan is probably starting to drop as the weight of your fingers remove that slop. Personally, 10M last longer than 20M for me, see my note here.

Omron has multiple ratings:
(1M) = 1million presses
(3m) = 3million presses
(5m) = 5million presses
(10M) = 10million presses
(20M) = 20million presses

Unfortunately, the only surefire way to know for certain is with the part number as shown above as they didn't always mark them.  However they often coincided with the button color or a painted dot on top.

Some of the lower numbers the details are sketchy, but we don't really care about them anyhow.
Black  – no dot – (1M) = 1million presses (not verified)
Red or Yellow button or dot (3m) = 3million (not verified)
Red or Yellow button or dot (5m) = 5million (not verified)
Gray button and/or dot - (10M) = 10million
White button and/or dot - (20M) = 20million

The colors are also referred to as tops, so when someone says a “white top” Omron, they mean it's a switch rated for 20mil. Presses.

Caution: I don't recommend relying on the button color. MS has custom switches made for them (labeled MS) which can be different and I have seen white and gray botton Omrons with no (XXM) stamped on them. These are usually older models, but it's something to keep in mind. Dots and labeling is the only surefire way to know and a while lower numbers may not say it, you can bet a 20M is going to let you know it's a 20M.

I'll put a chart at the bottom showing what is using what that I know of and if others post I will try and add them.


Other random numbers and letters in the switch part number  Example D2F L3 -T
More
Frankly, you do not want any of these on your switch, as they pertain to the soldering terminals and different ways to actuate the button, almost none of which are useful to use. Note: Levers can be removed, so if you want a specific switch in a hurry and can only find it with a lever, you can always remove it from the switch and use it without problems, just be careful removing it.

L = Hinge lever
L2 = Roller lever
L3 = simulated roller
L30 = larger simulated roller
-T = self clinching terminals (this can still work in a mouse)
-A = right angled terminals
-A1 = left angled terminals
-D3 = big solder terminals
-D = compact terminals


Machine switch Numbers
More
D2F-F-7N  is Comparable to D2F-01F  (Japanese)
D2FC-F-7N  is Comparable to D2FC-01F (Chinese)

D2F-3-7 is reportedly comparable to D2F-01F (but I suspect it's closer to D2F-01 due to lack of the N) (Japanese)
D2FC-3-7 is probably comparable to D2FC-01F (but I suspect it's closer to D2F-01 due to lack of the N) (Chinese)

Note: I do not know if the D2FC-3-7 exists, but I believe it might since the 7N has a Japanese and Chinese counterpart. A quick Google search turned up nothing.


Other Switch Brands
More
Yes, there are others that can be used. Lots in fact. Most agree that the Omrons are the best and by far the most common in quality mice, which begs the question, if they are the norm, why do people and manufacturers make such a big deal over Omrons. “Look, I have the same as everyone else!”
Various brands:
Kinzu, Kana, Himake, Panasonic, Huanos (loud according to TP4Tissue), Zippy, Qiaoh and TTF
Interesting ones:
TTF  is considered quietest
Zippy uses a coil spring so may be more durable


Popular Mice and what switches they use:
More
Almost all use a D2FC-F-7N the difference is the lifespan.
Asus
Rog Gladius = 20M (user replaceable)
ROG Spatha = 20M (user replaceable)

CoolerMaster
Storm = 10M

Logitech - Typically uses Omron 10Ms in most of their mice, however some gaming have used 20 lately.

G302 = 20M
G303 = 20M
G500 = ? (Note: double deck pcb makes it harder to replace switches)
G500S = 20M  (Note: double deck pcb makes it harder to replace switches)
G502 = unlabeled
G600 = 20M
G700 =10M (Note: double deck pcb makes it harder to replace switches)
G700S = 20M  (Note: double deck pcb makes it harder to replace switches)
G9 = 10M
G9X = 10M
G900 = 20M (possibly 10)
M705 Marathon = Himake switches

Master = 10M
MX Revolution = 10M
MX Performance = 10M

Razer
Deathadder 2013 = 10M

Steelseries
Sensei = 20M
Not all Steelseries use Omrons!


Sources
More

Thanks for your information!

Offline Winand

  • Posts: 5
  • Location: Zheleznodorozhny
    • Github
Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #30 on: Wed, 01 February 2017, 00:54:46 »
>D2F-3-7 is reportedly comparable to D2F-01F (but I suspect it's closer to D2F-01 due to lack of the N) (Japanese)

And what does N mean? The same as F? I'm going to repair my old A4 mouse just for fun. And i still don't understand if -F ones have longer lifespan (not for gaming).
Cannot choose between D2F-01F-T and D2F-F-3-7, the latter is a little bit cheaper.
« Last Edit: Wed, 01 February 2017, 02:29:21 by Winand »

Offline tp4tissue

  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Posts: 10435
  • Location: Official Geekhack Public Defender..
  • OmniExpert of: Rice, Top-Ramen, Ergodox, n Females
Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #31 on: Wed, 01 February 2017, 02:52:06 »
>D2F-3-7 is reportedly comparable to D2F-01F (but I suspect it's closer to D2F-01 due to lack of the N) (Japanese)

And what does N mean? The same as F? I'm going to repair my old A4 mouse just for fun. And i still don't understand if -F ones have longer lifespan (not for gaming).
Cannot choose between D2F-01F-T and D2F-F-3-7, the latter is a little bit cheaper.


It doesn't matter in terms of actual usage....   and I've not seen any OFFICIAL sources of the f37..

WHereas mouser / digikey sells the 01f.. so you know it's legit..



But imho, if your mouse WORKS, there's no point in doing swaps..

Offline Leslieann

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1661
Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #32 on: Wed, 01 February 2017, 06:15:54 »
And what does N mean? The same as F? I'm going to repair my old A4 mouse just for fun. And i still don't understand if -F ones have longer lifespan (not for gaming).
Cannot choose between D2F-01F-T and D2F-F-3-7, the latter is a little bit cheaper.
The fact that your A4 mouse has them, it stands to reason N is NOT Japanese as there is pretty much zero chance your A4 mouse has Japanese switches. They would probably double the cost of making the mouse (not joking!). Which confirms my theory that the N stands for soft springs.

As for lifespan it has nothing to do with the spring rate.
Newer switches are printed (painted), older switches used a colored dots or plunger.
Filco MJ2 L.E. w/Vortex case, hand milled case, custom feet, custom paint, Klaxxon key caps, lubed and o-ringed Jailhouse Blues made from vintage Cherry MX Blues, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, removable cord, sound dampened. Winkey blockoff plate | Magicforce 68 w/Outemu Blues |KBT Race S L.E. w/Ergo-Clears, custom WASD keyset | Das Pro w/browns (Costar model) | IBM Model M (x2)

Offline Winand

  • Posts: 5
  • Location: Zheleznodorozhny
    • Github
Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #33 on: Wed, 01 February 2017, 07:27:41 »
Sorry for misleading. It's A4tech NB-90 wireless/battery-less mouse. I have random double-clicks, etc. I've recently tried to repair its microswitch using this guide. It works but not for long i'm sure.
I'll have to disassemble the mouse again to see which switches are used. I thought that most of them are interchangeable, aren't they?

UPD.
A4Tech NB-90D --- HUANO 0.05A 30V DC
A4Tech SWOP-35PU --- HUANO 1A 125V AC
159368-0159370-1
So. Am I right that i should install in NB-90D an Omron switch labeled with "-01". According to D2F specs these are 30V DC.
« Last Edit: Thu, 02 February 2017, 14:21:48 by Winand »

Offline tp4tissue

  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Posts: 10435
  • Location: Official Geekhack Public Defender..
  • OmniExpert of: Rice, Top-Ramen, Ergodox, n Females
Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #34 on: Wed, 01 February 2017, 11:48:42 »
Sorry for misleading. It's A4tech NB-90 wireless/battery-less mouse. I have random double-clicks, etc. I've recently tried to repair its microswitch using this guide. It works but not for long i'm sure.
I'll have to disassemble the mouse again to see which switches are used. I thought that most of them are interchangeable, aren't they?

For repairs,  check out my WMO mouse guide, it contains detailed soldering instructions for these switches...  Timing and procedure is very important.

Offline Leslieann

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1661
Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #35 on: Wed, 01 February 2017, 17:17:49 »
Sorry for misleading. It's A4tech NB-90 wireless/battery-less mouse. I have random double-clicks, etc. I've recently tried to repair its microswitch using this guide. It works but not for long i'm sure.
I'll have to disassemble the mouse again to see which switches are used. I thought that most of them are interchangeable, aren't they?

That guide you followed is complete garbage.
You aren't going to re-bend a spring and have it function right ever again. It may for for a short time, but the spring is no longer in spec and will fall back out of of spec again. The spring is compromised structurally and each time you mess with it, it's lifespan will get shorter and shorter.

As for the switch, quite a few mice (especially smaller or oddball) use Panasonic style switches, so you're going to have to dive back inside and see what you have. Don't assume they are Omrons, especially in a lower end mouse.

Companies who buy out of Chinese catalogs, which I suspect A4tech does, are even more likely to use the Panasonic or even something more off the wall as Chinese companies come up with some really odd stuff.
Filco MJ2 L.E. w/Vortex case, hand milled case, custom feet, custom paint, Klaxxon key caps, lubed and o-ringed Jailhouse Blues made from vintage Cherry MX Blues, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, removable cord, sound dampened. Winkey blockoff plate | Magicforce 68 w/Outemu Blues |KBT Race S L.E. w/Ergo-Clears, custom WASD keyset | Das Pro w/browns (Costar model) | IBM Model M (x2)

Offline Winand

  • Posts: 5
  • Location: Zheleznodorozhny
    • Github
Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #36 on: Wed, 01 February 2017, 23:16:29 »
As for the switch, quite a few mice (especially smaller or oddball) use Panasonic style switches, so you're going to have to dive back inside and see what you have. Don't assume they are Omrons, especially in a lower end mouse.
Companies who buy out of Chinese catalogs, which I suspect A4tech does, are even more likely to use the Panasonic or even something more off the wall as Chinese companies come up with some really odd stuff.

Both A4Tech mice i have use Huanos. They look very similar to Omrons. And "Panasonic style" square switches A4 uses for additional buttons.
Could you please answer the question about specifications in my updated post?

Offline Leslieann

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1661
Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #37 on: Fri, 03 February 2017, 00:28:49 »
There's really no documentation telling how to go from Huanos to Omrons interchange, there may be measurements from Huanos somewhere but if there is one thing I learned researching this is that documentation is lacking.

Design-wise, these match the Japanese switches, however, without a micrometer it's impossible to eyeball, so you will need to just install and try them, if they are super sensitive, then it needs Chinese switches rather than Japanese.

If you want to try Japanese, you want d2f-01, for Chinese, d2fc-01, keep in mind, it wouldn't surprise me if it originally has soft springs (d2fc-01f).

Filco MJ2 L.E. w/Vortex case, hand milled case, custom feet, custom paint, Klaxxon key caps, lubed and o-ringed Jailhouse Blues made from vintage Cherry MX Blues, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, removable cord, sound dampened. Winkey blockoff plate | Magicforce 68 w/Outemu Blues |KBT Race S L.E. w/Ergo-Clears, custom WASD keyset | Das Pro w/browns (Costar model) | IBM Model M (x2)

Offline tp4tissue

  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Posts: 10435
  • Location: Official Geekhack Public Defender..
  • OmniExpert of: Rice, Top-Ramen, Ergodox, n Females
Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #38 on: Fri, 03 February 2017, 05:15:57 »
hahahaha.  micrometer?

you'd have to cut the legs off the switch in order to get it in there..

 digi caliper would work, buh.... ur measuring by hand feel with either tool..   no machining precision,  but you'd be pretty much within 0.1 to 0.2 mm

Offline Leslieann

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1661
Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #39 on: Fri, 03 February 2017, 20:12:35 »
Sometimes you have to get creative.  :))
Actually, I meant to say digital caliper.

As for the switches and precision, you're measuring plastic, clipped together, and then soldered onto a plate... You aren't going to get machinist precision, but 0.1mm is more than enough for what we need here.
Filco MJ2 L.E. w/Vortex case, hand milled case, custom feet, custom paint, Klaxxon key caps, lubed and o-ringed Jailhouse Blues made from vintage Cherry MX Blues, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, removable cord, sound dampened. Winkey blockoff plate | Magicforce 68 w/Outemu Blues |KBT Race S L.E. w/Ergo-Clears, custom WASD keyset | Das Pro w/browns (Costar model) | IBM Model M (x2)

Offline tp4tissue

  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Posts: 10435
  • Location: Official Geekhack Public Defender..
  • OmniExpert of: Rice, Top-Ramen, Ergodox, n Females
Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #40 on: Sat, 04 February 2017, 04:57:36 »

A4Tech NB-90D --- HUANO 0.05A 30V DC
A4Tech SWOP-35PU --- HUANO 1A 125V AC
So. Am I right that i should install in NB-90D an Omron switch labeled with "-01". According to D2F specs these are 30V DC.



You don't have to worry about  SPECS besides the resistence, the force..   because it's all 5v,  and there's no Current restriction because this isn't in line with a power supply, it's a signal line.

Offline gallowgeek

  • Posts: 32
  • Location: Germany
Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #41 on: Tue, 28 February 2017, 09:51:34 »
Since most popular gaming mice use Omron switches, the information you gave is a godsend. Thank you TS!

Offline OfTheWild

  • Formerly boostdemon
  • Posts: 705
  • Location: Cary, NC
  • Make things. Have fun.
    • Studios of the Wild
Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #42 on: Tue, 28 February 2017, 16:58:22 »
This is some great reading material, thanks for gathering it all up. I replaced the switches in my MS Optical based on TP4's how-to and it was a vast improvement going to the D2F-01F switches.
-Dana

Doorbell

Offline Winand

  • Posts: 5
  • Location: Zheleznodorozhny
    • Github
Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #43 on: Wed, 01 March 2017, 00:53:12 »
I asked ebay seller about d2f-01f-t ($4 for 5pcs) And they answered that it is made in China. Strange.

Offline Leslieann

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1661
Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #44 on: Wed, 01 March 2017, 03:53:11 »
This is some great reading material, thanks for gathering it all up. I replaced the switches in my MS Optical based on TP4's how-to and it was a vast improvement going to the D2F-01F switches.
You're welcome and congrats!


I asked ebay seller about d2f-01f-t ($4 for 5pcs) And they answered that it is made in China. Strange.
He's just reselling, he doesn't know, or care.
Note in the pictures that the Chinese models all have a C in the model number, as well as China stamped on them, but they also have smaller cross holes.
« Last Edit: Wed, 01 March 2017, 03:54:44 by Leslieann »
Filco MJ2 L.E. w/Vortex case, hand milled case, custom feet, custom paint, Klaxxon key caps, lubed and o-ringed Jailhouse Blues made from vintage Cherry MX Blues, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, removable cord, sound dampened. Winkey blockoff plate | Magicforce 68 w/Outemu Blues |KBT Race S L.E. w/Ergo-Clears, custom WASD keyset | Das Pro w/browns (Costar model) | IBM Model M (x2)

Offline nyunyu

  • Posts: 57
  • Location: Budapest, Hungary
Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #45 on: Wed, 01 March 2017, 06:57:24 »


That's a chinese D2F-J01F: it does NOT have C in the model number, and it used similar shell as regular japanese D2F-s: clamps are on the long side, and they have big hole)

They were manufactured under Omron's license by a chinese company, and Gigabyte used them in their mice ~10 years ago.

You can find these switches now under Qiaoh name: http://www.qiaoh.com/en/product-show.asp?id=132
« Last Edit: Wed, 01 March 2017, 07:03:03 by nyunyu »

Offline tp4tissue

  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Posts: 10435
  • Location: Official Geekhack Public Defender..
  • OmniExpert of: Rice, Top-Ramen, Ergodox, n Females
Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #46 on: Wed, 01 March 2017, 09:48:59 »
This is some great reading material, thanks for gathering it all up. I replaced the switches in my MS Optical based on TP4's how-to and it was a vast improvement going to the D2F-01F switches.
Show Image


u still got 3 more switches to replace there.. /excited

Offline Leslieann

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1661
Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #47 on: Wed, 01 March 2017, 13:00:54 »
They were manufactured under Omron's license by a chinese company, and Gigabyte used them in their mice ~10 years ago.
Ahh, it's an older one.
By the way, I looked it up, the switch has China embedded in the top surface (I.E. clearly labeled Chinese if viewed from the top down.).

I'm sure this and fakes coming out of China are why Omron changed their labeling, older ones were difficult to make heads or tails from.
« Last Edit: Wed, 01 March 2017, 13:03:27 by Leslieann »
Filco MJ2 L.E. w/Vortex case, hand milled case, custom feet, custom paint, Klaxxon key caps, lubed and o-ringed Jailhouse Blues made from vintage Cherry MX Blues, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, removable cord, sound dampened. Winkey blockoff plate | Magicforce 68 w/Outemu Blues |KBT Race S L.E. w/Ergo-Clears, custom WASD keyset | Das Pro w/browns (Costar model) | IBM Model M (x2)

Offline nyunyu

  • Posts: 57
  • Location: Budapest, Hungary
Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #48 on: Thu, 02 March 2017, 13:52:41 »
Logitech started using D2FC-F-7N series around 2001 (MX500/700 already had them in 2002), so the D2F-J01F is actually newer model.

Offline Leslieann

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1661
Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #49 on: Thu, 02 March 2017, 21:57:24 »
Logitech started using D2FC-F-7N series around 2001 (MX500/700 already had them in 2002), so the D2F-J01F is actually newer model.

Older as in pre-dating the current labeling system.
Filco MJ2 L.E. w/Vortex case, hand milled case, custom feet, custom paint, Klaxxon key caps, lubed and o-ringed Jailhouse Blues made from vintage Cherry MX Blues, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, removable cord, sound dampened. Winkey blockoff plate | Magicforce 68 w/Outemu Blues |KBT Race S L.E. w/Ergo-Clears, custom WASD keyset | Das Pro w/browns (Costar model) | IBM Model M (x2)