Realforce 45g vs 55g

[danrew]

Finally convinced myself that I need to try a Topre keyboard after having owned Cherry MX Blue, Brown, and Black (All Filco Majestouch TKLs) keyboards. I've finally reached my Cherry MX nirvana after rotating through my keyboards for three years...only to decide to pursue the much talked about "thock thock thock" that Topre fans seem to love.
 
Blues -  The blues have become my daily driver (at home) and I game with these almost exclusively now. I can type the fastest with these switches as well. The click doesn't bother me, but I really need something to use at night when the wife goes to bed. Likewise, I can't take these to work but I totally would if I thought I could get away with it.

Browns - Contrary to what some think, I think browns have a very pleasant bottoming out sounds (plate mounted Filco). To me it kind of sounds like typing on a piece of bamboo (bamboo-mounted Cherry MX Blues anyone?) However, I find my accuracy drops significantly when trying to type as fast as I can, probably due to the lower actuation force. I can game with these, but something about the Blues just feel much more authoritative.

Blacks - I appreciate the smooth action on the linear style Cherry MX switches for gaming. Input feels very responsive and I used these at work for awhile (database and application developer) as they're pretty quiet. I typed with these for about a year, and I think they really strengthened my fingers. But I prefer something lighter for typing.

I ruled out HHKB pretty quickly, as I dislike function key combos, and the lack of arrow keys seems disconcerting to me. The tenkeyless Realforce 87U's on Elitekeyboards.com offers just about every weighting (minus 30-35g uniforms). Ergo distributed weighting (35g, 45g, 55g), uniform All 45g and uniform All 55g weighting is offered in both Black and White cases/keys. There are only 3 options for full size keyboards (Realforce 104U) at this time, so it was a pretty easy choice going with tenkeyless models.

I knew that I liked Cherry MX Blues the best. The tactility and the actuation force to me is perfect. So I knew that I wanted something around 50g of force. I knew I wouldn't really appreciate the ergo distributed weighting (35g,45g,55g) because I know that I prefer heavier switches (although I find the blacks a little too heavy to type comfortably on). Also, the uniform weighting appeals to my inner OCD mania. Wouldn't you know it, Realforce offers two variants of uniform weighting that are +- 5g of my ideal, 45g and 55g. I know that the Topre's have a different force curve than Cherrys (most of the actuation force is required at the top of the switch rather than the middle) but I worry that I will find 45g too light or 55g too heavy.

Confronted with this dilemma I revived my GH account and tried to figure out what to get. So here I am to beat the dead horse some more...Should I get a 45g or 55g unifrom weighted Realforce keyboard? I will most likely end up with a black Realforce 87U in either 45g or 55g uniform weighting (unless Brian at Elitekeyboards.com suddenly discovers a stock of 104U keyboards with all unifrom weighting). If anyone has owned both, I'd love to hear why you prefer one over the other...or if I should just buy both 

Many thanks.

[___q]

I really like my 55g 87U.  I have heard that the 45g plate-mounted switches feel more "mushy".  I'm not particularly interested in buying a 45g as well to test, but the 55g switches don't feel too heavy to me (I also type a lot on 62g MX blacks & clears)

That being said, I also have a uniform 30g plate-mount topre board, and I like it as well (it is definitely less tactile than the 55g, though), so I doubt you can really make a bad choice here.

[LETE]

I found 55g to be too fatiguing; I had to trade mine in for a variable weight board. I've tried the whole spectrum and find 45g to be right in the zone for my tastes, unlike the tactile-less 30g switches, the 45g's have a definite crispness in their actuation.

though our tastes may not align since cherry blues are my all time LEAST favorite so far. They're light enough and everything, I just can't stand how the release point is above the actuation point. It drives me bonkers!

[Polymer]

I really like my 55g 87U.  I have heard that the 45g plate-mounted switches feel more "mushy".  I'm not particularly interested in buying a 45g as well to test, but the 55g switches don't feel too heavy to me (I also type a lot on 62g MX blacks & clears)

That being said, I also have a uniform 30g plate-mount topre board, and I like it as well (it is definitely less tactile than the 55g, though), so I doubt you can really make a bad choice here.

45g Plate mounted switches are more mushy when compared to the HHKB..I'm not sure why but they're softer.  The 55g RF is a bit stiffer than the HHKB which IMO is a bit stiffer than RF 45g....

If you like blues, the uniform 45g will probably be about right...45g RF is a bit stiffer (to me) than MX Browns..so it should feel closer to blues...

Either way, you'll get used to what you're using pretty quick...

[Danule]

My favorite mx switch is the brown and I currently have a 45g realforce that I really love to type on.  I have yet to try the 55g realforce but I assume it will be a bit more "snappy" than tha 45g  I prefer lighter switches so it just depends on what you prefer.

Since blue (50g) is your favorite you would probably like the 55g realforce.

[oTurtlez]

I currently have a variable 103u, and a uniform 45g FC660C, and I definitely like the feel of the uniform 45g more. It feels very crisp, and not mushy at all. The 35g keys on the variable feel mushy to me, but that's because they have almost no tactility. I feel that the 55g would be a bit too heavy for me, so I believe your best bet would be the 45.

[danrew]

Either way, you'll get used to what you're using pretty quick...
[/quote]

There's some keyboard wisdom right there...3 years ago, I spent hours, days, weeks debating which Cherry MX switch would be best for me, and ultimately I ended up with all three >.<
I've found the human condition to be more plastic and adaptive. Sometimes people (like me) just spend way too much time thinking about stuff. Granted my disposable income is quite a bit higher than it was 3 years ago...and to think I used to scoff at people owning more keyboards than they had computers...

[danrew]

I found 55g to be too fatiguing; I had to trade mine in for a variable weight board. I've tried the whole spectrum and find 45g to be right in the zone for my tastes, unlike the tactile-less 30g switches, the 45g's have a definite crispness in their actuation.

though our tastes may not align since cherry blues are my all time LEAST favorite so far. They're light enough and everything, I just can't stand how the release point is above the actuation point. It drives me bonkers!

What activities were you trying to use your 55g for? Typing, gaming? Just curious.
If you think blues are loud...I wonder what you think of buckling springs ha ha.

I found an old IBM hybrid typewriter (IBM Wheelwriter 2000) in the IT closet at work a couple days ago. Started typing on the keys and took one of the keycaps off (I always go for the Up Arrow key). Lo and behold, a buckling spring Always heard about buckling springs but never actually encountered one. I can say that they are QUITE loud, but I have to say that the tactile feedback is way more defined than any other switch I've used. The throw also feels shorter (key travel) and I feel like I could type very quick on it.



Also, kudos for putting some first impressions up about the Realforce Hi-Pro.

[danrew]

I feel that the 55g would be a bit too heavy for me, so I believe your best bet would be the 45.

Since blue (50g) is your favorite you would probably like the 55g realforce.

These two replys basically sums up my dilemma ha ha.

[oTurtlez]

Do what I do when you can't make a decision, flip a coin haha. If you don't like whichever one you get (which you will), you'll have no problem making 95% of your money back on the classifieds here.

[LETE]

What activities were you trying to use your 55g for? Typing, gaming? Just curious.
If you think blues are loud...I wonder what you think of buckling springs ha ha.

I used it for both typing and gaming, I found it fatiguing for typing though, I find model M keyboards take too much effort to type on too. I'm model F or nothing when it comes to buckling springs.

I didn't say I thought they were loud, though their noisiness isn't in dispute, my problem with them is that repeated key presses require an exaggerated release stroke to reset the mechanism, whereas on all other cherry switches you can freely hover about the actuation point and produce rapid repeat key presses. I know blues aren't meant for gaming, and for that very reason, but I also find them to be problematic when typing. I constantly make mistakes on double letters (look -> lok) but when I get going really fast I start missing single letters too where I hadn't fully released the key before a repeat strike.

Also, kudos for putting some first impressions up about the Realforce Hi-Pro.

Hey thanks. 

Also I'd warn you that 55g topres do feel quite a bit heavier than cherry blues, I'd say blues are more in line with 45g topres. Id put the 55g topres more on the level of model m buckling springs in practice.

[danrew]

I didn't say I thought they were loud, though their noisiness isn't in dispute, my problem with them is that repeated key presses require an exaggerated release stroke to reset the mechanism, whereas on all other cherry switches you can freely hover about the actuation point and produce rapid repeat key presses. I know blues aren't meant for gaming, and for that very reason, but I also find them to be problematic when typing. I constantly make mistakes on double letters (look -> lok) but when I get going really fast I start missing single letters too where I hadn't fully released the key before a repeat strike.

Now that you mention it. That must be why I'm more accurate with blues. The "delay" between the actuation and release point probably forces my fingers to make more defined typing strokes rather than button mashing (the auto-correct on my iPhone has spoiled me by translating my unintelligible button mashed texts into human language). I have the exact opposite problem when I type on Browns - "look" can become "loook" or "loko".

[Danule]

I've read on here that the weight of the switches becomes lighter as they are worked in (I cannot confirm as i havent had mine for long enough),  so that may sway your desision.

[LETE]

I've read on here that the weight of the switches becomes lighter as they are worked in (I cannot confirm as i havent had mine for long enough),  so that may sway your desision.

More likely your fingers bulk up. Comparing my 2 year old 45g to my day old 45g I also can't confirm lightening.

[daerid]

If anything, Topre switches get stiffer with age. I'm pretty sure LETE is on the right track. It's not so much that you're building any kind of muscle, really. More that you're gaining muscle memory of how hard to type on them. As that normalizes out, the actual feel of the tactile bump reduces because you're pressing each key with less and less... I guess "hesitancy" is the closest word. This has happened to me with every board that I've used for any extended period of time (more than a couple weeks), Topre or not.

[danrew]

What would cause a Topre switch to get stiffer over time? I've found that my Cherry MX switches lighten up over time. As did my rubber dome keyboards from yesteryear. I used a Saitek Eclipse (one of the first readily available backlit keyboards in my memory!) for years. Ultimately, that rubber sheet turned into the mushiest "grandma underarm skin" keyboard I've ever laid hands on. However, it's still very serviceable and my brother currently uses it as his silent late night keyboard. It literally has no acoustic definition one room over ha ha. I also used a Logitech Wave keyboard for a few years in college and that too lightened up. I guess in my experience, I've only seen rubber dome sheets get lighter with time.

[___q]

Hypothetically, wear on the domes could cause them to "dry out" and stiffen, which I think is the usual argument.  I don't find it particularly likely, but I've only had my 87Us for a couple of months now, so I can't supply an anecdote.

55g topres definitely feel slightly heavier than blues, but feel lighter than stock clears (though the tactile differences make them slightly hard to compare, topres have all of their resistance right at the top of the key travel).

[TheSoulhunter]

What would cause a Topre switch to get stiffer over time? I've found that my Cherry MX switches lighten up over time. As did my rubber dome keyboards from yesteryear. I used a Saitek Eclipse (one of the first readily available backlit keyboards in my memory!) for years. Ultimately, that rubber sheet turned into the mushiest "grandma underarm skin" keyboard I've ever laid hands on. However, it's still very serviceable and my brother currently uses it as his silent late night keyboard. It literally has no acoustic definition one room over ha ha. I also used a Logitech Wave keyboard for a few years in college and that too lightened up. I guess in my experience, I've only seen rubber dome sheets get lighter with time.

In MX switches you got springs and sliders...
Springs will loose retraction ability by compressing/decompressing em continously and sliders will wear down slightly over time as well.

Resistance in the Topre mechanism is mainly caused by the rubberdome (the spring adds little resistance)
Elastomers, same as most other polymers contain some form of plasticizer/softener which will "dry out" over time making the material harder / stiffer / more brittle.

[KuhnTang]

I have a RF 87 (silent) that I bought a week ago.  I'm putting it up in the classifieds soon because I like my RF 55g more.

[___q]

I have a RF 87 (silent) that I bought a week ago.  I'm putting it up in the classifieds soon because I like my RF 55g more.

You should totally swap the stems and just sell the equivalent of a variable non-silent 87U.  Silenced 55g 87U is an amazing keyboard (I use one at work).

[KuhnTang]

Sounds interesting, but also like a lot of work.    When I plug my RF into my linux machine at work the "_" and "^" key are mapped wrong.  I don't think it's the dip switches because it's mapped correctly on my PC.  Have any of you experienced this?

I've also considered the HiPro

[___q]

Hmmmm... I think you could just swap the plates, so "a lot of work" is "unscrew a ton of screws move one thing and screw them all back in".

That being said, the screws in the 87U are a bit of a pain (there are a lot of them and they're small and very tight from the factory, so you can easily strip one if you're not careful).

EDIT: and no, I have never seen that mapping issue (on any of several linux machines).

[BucklingSpring]

55g all the way... I have both and prefer the 55 by far.

[vivalarevolución]

Considering that you are in Chicago, you should consider attending the first Keycon and try out some Topre boards, if anyboidy is bringing them.

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44762.0

[knotra]

I've only tried the 45g Realforce so I don't know what the 55g feels like in comparison but I love using my 45g. I don't think its "mushy" at all. It has a nice weight and a nice bump. For Cherry MXs, I like the Blues and Browns and I feel like the 45g has a very comfortable weight that is similar to both.

[Danule]

I want to try a 55g now... My 45g feels very crisp though not as crisp as a cherry.

[BucklingSpring]

+1  for try before you buy.

Then nobody will argue with your personal tastes once you take whatever you prefer :-)

Considering that you are in Chicago, you should consider attending the first Keycon and try out some Topre boards, if anyboidy is bringing them.

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44762.0

[HolidaySHRIMP]

My rf 87u 55g feels better than my old hhkb (45g). They are different boards so feel does vary.

[danrew]

Considering that you are in Chicago, you should consider attending the first Keycon and try out some Topre boards, if anyboidy is bringing them.

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44762.0

Good idea. Although to be perfectly honest, I doubt I can wait that long. A month of time is like an ETERNITY to a keyboard enthusiast! Still, there is something to be said about hands on (fingers on?) experience.

[quickcrx702]

55g all the way... I have both and prefer the 55 by far.

I also have both, and they feel nothing alike.  You would think it's just a 10g difference, but it is so much more in actual feeling.  I love my 55g because it is so tactile and crisp, and in comparison the 45g feels like a watered down version for people with weak hands.  Although, if you have pain issues, 45g would be a more logical choice.  That, or you could inject steroids or some yayo into your fingers to make them stronger and less likely to fatigue.

[digi]

45g isn't mushy at all. Something that helped me make my decision, If you prefer MX Blacks, you'll like 55g, if you like MX Reds you might prefer the 45g. I haven't tried the 55g yet but will someday.

[danrew]

So, I think I'm going to try out a 55g Realforce 87U. Thanks for all the input guys, good stuff. Seems like most people who have tried both (a very small sample size it would also seem) prefer the 55g. I think given the fact that I prefer blues over browns, purely from a force standpoint, I think the heavier switch will suit me more. I'll probably end up with both (that's what happened to me with Cherry MX switches), but I think I'll start with the 55g.

And for whatever reason the uniform 45g 87U from EK has red LED's while the 55g 87U has blue LED's (I'm more Obi-Wan than Vader).

Now the question is black or white...The black looks clean, understated and subtle. The white has a classy feel and I love the two tone keys (white keys in the middle and grey keys along the edges). What's the preference on black vs white Realforce keyboards?

Thanks!

[oTurtlez]

So, I think I'm going to try out a 55g Realforce 87U. Thanks for all the input guys, good stuff. Seems like most people who have tried both (a very small sample size it would also seem) prefer the 55g. I think given the fact that I prefer blues over browns, purely from a force standpoint, I think the heavier switch will suit me more. I'll probably end up with both (that's what happened to me with Cherry MX switches), but I think I'll start with the 55g.

And for whatever reason the uniform 45g 87U from EK has red LED's while the 55g 87U has blue LED's (I'm more Obi-Wan than Vader).

Now the question is black or white...The black looks clean, understated and subtle. The white has a classy feel and I love the two tone keys (white keys in the middle and grey keys along the edges). What's the preference on black vs white Realforce keyboards?

Thanks!

That's the "EK Edition" 87u. There's a normal 45g I believe.

EDIT: I guess it only comes in white with the blue LED's. :/

[KuhnTang]

So, I think I'm going to try out a 55g Realforce 87U. Thanks for all the input guys, good stuff. Seems like most people who have tried both (a very small sample size it would also seem) prefer the 55g. I think given the fact that I prefer blues over browns, purely from a force standpoint, I think the heavier switch will suit me more. I'll probably end up with both (that's what happened to me with Cherry MX switches), but I think I'll start with the 55g.

And for whatever reason the uniform 45g 87U from EK has red LED's while the 55g 87U has blue LED's (I'm more Obi-Wan than Vader).

Now the question is black or white...The black looks clean, understated and subtle. The white has a classy feel and I love the two tone keys (white keys in the middle and grey keys along the edges). What's the preference on black vs white Realforce keyboards?

Thanks!

Congrats!, good choice.

I'm one of the few whom has tried the 55g and 45g.  Although I prefer the 55g.  I will say that they both have their pros and cons.  for instance, I feel like I can type faster on the 45g, although I didn't do a speed comparison.  However, as for typing "feel" and "experience", 55g is the best keyboard I've tried.

As a side note, I ordered a HiPro a couple days ago, so I'll be able to weigh in on that one as well.

I hope you're happy with your choice.

[oTurtlez]

45g isn't mushy at all. Something that helped me make my decision, If you prefer MX Blacks, you'll like 55g, if you like MX Reds you might prefer the 45g. I haven't tried the 55g yet but will someday.

I guess that someday is sooner than later

[danrew]

Yea, I was eyeing that Hi-Profile 104 board as well, thinking that it might do well at work for me...why do keyboards have to be so expensive!?

[danrew]

If you prefer MX Blacks, you'll like 55g, if you like MX Reds you might prefer the 45g. I haven't tried the 55g yet but will someday.

The thing is I have a perceived notion that Blues fall inbetween Blacks and Reds in terms of actuation force/spring tension ha ha.

[DaveyG]

45g to me seems too light, mushy it ain't but i never really loved it. In fact I was a little underwhelmed by my first Topre experience - didn't stop me trying another tho' and 55g is easily my favourite switch.  As a (sort of) reference I also prefer blacks over reds, although they feel totally different to Topre switches. I don't like blues or browns at all.


I don't think the Topre cases are as solid as the Filcos -  Mildly disappointing given the price of the things. I mean they are not bad by any stretch but just slightly creaky. Not evident in normal use, but I just obsess over that kinda thing. . still my favourite board though.




EDIT: re colour.. well i got one of each & the results are in my sig lol. If i only had one choice it would be the white.

[LETE]

don't feel too bad about not going with the hi-pro, I haven't grown accustomed to it yet but getting used to its quirks has been abysmal. I kind of hate it.

[KuhnTang]

don't feel too bad about not going with the hi-pro, I haven't grown accustomed to it yet but getting used to its quirks has been abysmal. I kind of hate it.

Well that sucks.  Can you elaborate on the quirks?  I just bought one, still in the mail, and would like to know what I'm in for.

Thanks

[quickcrx702]

So, I think I'm going to try out a 55g Realforce 87U. Thanks for all the input guys, good stuff. Seems like most people who have tried both (a very small sample size it would also seem) prefer the 55g. I think given the fact that I prefer blues over browns, purely from a force standpoint, I think the heavier switch will suit me more. I'll probably end up with both (that's what happened to me with Cherry MX switches), but I think I'll start with the 55g.

And for whatever reason the uniform 45g 87U from EK has red LED's while the 55g 87U has blue LED's (I'm more Obi-Wan than Vader).

Now the question is black or white...The black looks clean, understated and subtle. The white has a classy feel and I love the two tone keys (white keys in the middle and grey keys along the edges). What's the preference on black vs white Realforce keyboards?

Thanks!

Congrats!, good choice.

I'm one of the few whom has tried the 55g and 45g.  Although I prefer the 55g.  I will say that they both have their pros and cons.  for instance, I feel like I can type faster on the 45g, although I didn't do a speed comparison.  However, as for typing "feel" and "experience", 55g is the best keyboard I've tried.

As a side note, I ordered a HiPro a couple days ago, so I'll be able to weigh in on that one as well.

I hope you're happy with your choice.

I will admit that although I am to this day underwhelmed by my 45g board, and the 55g is WAY more fun to type on, I do feel that I type faster on the 45g.  As far as color, I have both.  The black looks better to begin with, but then the novelty fades.  The white starts to grow on you after time, and is also much better for gaming to locate keys to perform in game action, especially if you game in the dark.  I am a touch typer, but on the black it is hard sometimes to game since your fingers don't sit on the home row so you have to think more about key locations.  It only adds about half a second to locate keys, but sometimes that means you're dead.

[danrew]

I don't think the Topre cases are as solid as the Filcos -  Mildly disappointing given the price of the things. I mean they are not bad by any stretch but just slightly creaky. Not evident in normal use, but I just obsess over that kinda thing. . still my favourite board though.

All three of my Filco's are first-gen Majestouch's (Costar I think) and I have to agree that they are built like a tank. They feel super sturdy on a desk and the four thick rubber feet really hold it in place while you're furiously... *Insert Activity Here*

[digi]

I guess that someday is sooner than later

Just picked up a RF 55g U from the classys, pretty stoked to try it out. Next dilemma is, which board goes to the Office and which one stays at home. :0

[oTurtlez]

I guess that someday is sooner than later

Just picked up a RF 55g U from the classys, pretty stoked to try it out. Next dilemma is, which board goes to the Office and which one stays at home. :0

45g for the office and the 55 for home. Or better yet, order yourself a silent, mod it to 45 / 55 uniform, and then take THAT one to the office

[danrew]

Are the silent Realforces really that much quieter? Also, could someone educate me on how they are made silent? On Cherrys that would mean O-Rings on the stems, but as I understand it the "silent" Topres have physically different stems (I saw they were purple somewhere on the internet).

[oTurtlez]

There ya go haha.

They use a foam silencing on the stems and something else, but like I say in the vid, whatever they do, it works.

[danrew]

Thanks for the video. Definitely appreciate the feedback.

[khaangaaroo]

Are the silent Realforces really that much quieter? Also, could someone educate me on how they are made silent? On Cherrys that would mean O-Rings on the stems, but as I understand it the "silent" Topres have physically different stems (I saw they were purple somewhere on the internet).

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=45141.0

[velvetdon25]

Hmm.. I may need to try out 55g's now after obtaining my HHKB Pro2.

[danrew]

Just got my 55g 87U this morning. Gonna bring it to work and take it for a spin.

Initial impressions:
-Love the look of the keyboard. The black legends on grey keys looks awesome and I don't mind that they're a little tough to read quickly. I can touch type around 95 wpm so I generally don't need to look down. My primary game is League of Legends, so my fingers also don't move very far from the QWER.
-The case is a little bigger compared to my Filcos (both are TKL's).
-The switches have a very unique feel. Very pleasant to bottom out on.
-I feel that the 55g switches are a bit heavier than Cherry MX Blues like some have mentioned.