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Offline speakeasy

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« Reply #200 on: Fri, 18 February 2011, 19:53:08 »
Quote from: Konrad;297510
Any thoughts about mapping Grid on the numpad?


You'd have to move your hand for your control groups then.
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Offline JelinaNU

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« Reply #201 on: Fri, 18 February 2011, 20:03:24 »
A quick heads-up: the FXOpen Invitational just went live. The brackets show the potential for some amazing games. I'm excited to sit down with coffee and pizza  and watch some high-level Starcraft 2!
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Offline sawedust

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« Reply #202 on: Fri, 18 February 2011, 22:55:23 »
Quote from: manfaux;297411
As you aren't likely to constantly produce units out of BOTH robo and stargate, it's better to leave one hotkey out for you combating units, I have 1~4 all for army and it's not nearly enough.


Quote from: JinDesu;297417
I also like to tab between the stargate and robo if I actually have both out.

It's different with terran though, because I definitely need my starports and factories on different hotkeys, especially because of the addons.


I usually have one or the other on hotkey 3 when I'm operating out of one base.  I don't usually get the other facility until I'm operating off of two bases, and that is where the layouts are fine for me as I'll have enough economy to keep pushing units out of all production facilities.

It's a habit from playing Terran so long since release where like JinDesu, I had 3/5/6 set up for Rax/Factory/Starport.

Quote from: wongster;297419
I'm trying to get used to hotkeying research buildings. I think it's a more efficient way to check the progress of upgrades and not have idle research buildings.


It is!  Good habit to have.  Plus when something is finished reseaching, you can just press a hotkey and start upgrading something else without having to head back to your base. :)

Quote from: manfaux;297420
tab works. I play terran and I dont hotkey either factory or starport, just 4 for all my rax and that's it, every other control group is all armies.

If you look closely enough, there are still plenty of unused hotkeys to be customized, like Tilde and space. I use Tilde for Patrolling and Space for jumping between bases(what backspace did)


RE: Army control, I use tab to go in between the deathball units.  As the sentries are usually the only ones with abilities it's pretty easy to shield up or forcefield when needed.  If I have to blink stalkers back, I can do that either manually or with tab.  Old habits from WC3.

I remapped tilde to idle worker as I moved my location hotkeys to F1-F4.  Space, I kept as last action.  My bases are on F1-F3 so I use that instead to cycle through.
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Offline sawedust

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« Reply #203 on: Sun, 20 February 2011, 21:23:13 »
Just a heads up!

GSL starts again tonight!  We start with the Code A RO32 Day 1.  2300 HST start time!

Losira (Z) vs. LegalMind (P)
August (T) vs. Loner (T)
Curious (Z) vs. HuK (P)
Posh (Z) vs. ButterflyEffect (T)

Let's hope we see some of the amazing gameplay shown in the GSTL.
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Offline JelinaNU

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« Reply #204 on: Sun, 20 February 2011, 22:42:30 »
Quote from: sawedust;298570
Just a heads up! GSL starts again tonight!  We start with the Code A RO32 Day 1.  2300 HST start time!

Hype! I'm ready to see HuK and the others hwaiting. I get up for work at 5am, though, so I won't be able to watch the matches until I get home. The Bo7 showmatch between Idra and Jinro starts at 5pm EST, too. So much goodness...

Are we observing the three-day rule regarding match spoilers in this thread?
« Last Edit: Sun, 20 February 2011, 22:56:07 by JelinaNU »
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Offline manfaux

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« Reply #205 on: Sun, 20 February 2011, 23:01:31 »
can't wait to see HuK play, hope he doesn't get ownd

Offline sawedust

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« Reply #206 on: Mon, 21 February 2011, 02:25:04 »
Quote from: JelinaNU;298603
Hype! I'm ready to see HuK and the others hwaiting. I get up for work at 5am, though, so I won't be able to watch the matches until I get home. The Bo7 showmatch between Idra and Jinro starts at 5pm EST, too. So much goodness...

Are we observing the three-day rule regarding match spoilers in this thread?


Quote from: manfaux;298611
can't wait to see HuK play, hope he doesn't get ownd


Seems like a lot of us want HuK to do well, and I'm one of them!

It's gonna be late at night for me, but I usually stay up all the way to finish the cast.  I'm not sure what it's going to be like having to listen to Kelly throughout the entire cast instead of Artosis.

Is Kelly taking Dan's casting spot in Code A to give him a break?

And I completely forgot about IdrA and Jinro too.  Plus the announcement of the NASL, which is most likely the North American StarLeague or something like that.  $100k prize pool?  Unlikely, but that's the number being thrown around.

As far as spoilers go I'm pretty good at not revealing anything while still hinting at the games/matches to watch, so yeah I can go with that 3-day rule.  Anything after that is fair game for discussion!

gg gl hf!
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Offline hate

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« Reply #207 on: Mon, 21 February 2011, 08:56:41 »
i cant see HuK with his shaky pvz and pvp making far into code a let alone getting a spot in code s. with sc2 getting more global better to follow idras footsteps and return to his homeland.
« Last Edit: Mon, 21 February 2011, 10:36:03 by hate »
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Offline manfaux

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« Reply #208 on: Mon, 21 February 2011, 11:10:32 »
Quote from: hate;298730
i cant see HuK with his shaky pvz and pvp making far into code a let alone getting a spot in code s. with sc2 getting more global better to follow idras footsteps and return to his homeland.


well from last night's game his PvZ looks rock solid (I won't get into the details of the games..) These new bigger maps are really helping players like Huk because the Koreans are so good at cheesing and all-ins with their superior micros, i think a lot of the foreigners will definitely benefit from a more macro-oriented game.

Offline sawedust

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« Reply #209 on: Mon, 21 February 2011, 12:51:59 »
Quote from: hate;298730
i cant see HuK with his shaky pvz and pvp making far into code a let alone getting a spot in code s. with sc2 getting more global better to follow idras footsteps and return to his homeland.

We can't forget that oGs and TLAF`Liquid train and live in the same house.  You'd have to figure that training with arguably the best Protoss in the world (oGsMC) that he'd be able to pick up some things.  Being #1 on the KR and EU servers is something that should be recognized too.  You don't make it up there without having some sort of skill in all three matchups.

I do think that HuK will have a great chance to make it to Code S.  Looking at the brackets right now all he has to do is focus on his PvZ.  I don't see any other Terrans making it further than they are now, and the only other Toss on his side of the draw is ST_Ace, and that's not until the quarters assuming both of them make it that far.

As for the last point, I think it depends on the player.  Glory or money?  Obviously IdrA thinks he's the greatest player in the world and thus he's going to stick with what gives him the better payoff.

With HuK, it seems like all the time he's devoted to laddering to get ready for Assembly as well as the GSL Code A I'm inclined to think he's taken the same path that Jinro did and will stay in Korea for the glory.

Quote from: manfaux;298790
well from last night's game his PvZ looks rock solid (I won't get into the details of the games..) These new bigger maps are really helping players like Huk because the Koreans are so good at cheesing and all-ins with their superior micros, i think a lot of the foreigners will definitely benefit from a more macro-oriented game.

I absolutely love the new map pool and wish Blizzard would get a hint as to the quality of games on a larger map.  The GSTL was a prime example of how having macro maps leads to much more fun and exciting games.  Most people view macro games coming down to whoever has more skill.

Take players like TSL_Rain and BitbybitPrime.WE.  In the second GSL, all they did was just 2 Rax SCV allin against Zerg and they ended up making it quite far in the tournament.  After the next GSL and the up/down, neither of them are in Code S and will need to fight to stay in Code A.

Cheesy strategies game-after-game may work on ladder, but no longer in a  tournament setting that features macro-oriented maps.
« Last Edit: Mon, 21 February 2011, 15:00:03 by sawedust »
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Offline JelinaNU

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« Reply #210 on: Mon, 21 February 2011, 16:43:57 »
Quote from: sawedust;298657
Is Kelly taking Dan's casting spot in Code A to give him a break?

Yeah, my understanding is that she will be solo casting Code A until GOM can find her a co-caster. Dan and Nick apparently requested the change -- although not Kelly specifically.
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Offline guilleguillaume

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« Reply #211 on: Mon, 21 February 2011, 17:06:42 »
http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/incontrol

Don't lose this Match!

EGIdra vs LiquidJinro

Bo7

Winner earns 1500$.

Offline sawedust

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« Reply #212 on: Mon, 21 February 2011, 23:15:51 »
Quote from: JelinaNU;298978
Yeah, my understanding is that she will be solo casting Code A until GOM can find her a co-caster. Dan and Nick apparently requested the change -- although not Kelly specifically.


Yeah, I heard the same thing.  Hopefully Kelly will improve as that was her first cast.  We'll just have to see how everything turns out in the future.

Could you imagine having Kelly and TotalBiscuit cast GSL Code A.  o_O
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Offline speakeasy

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« Reply #213 on: Mon, 21 February 2011, 23:30:56 »
Kelly is borderline unlistenable. I don't mind her accent so much, but I can't stand when her voice gets high pitched when stuff is going on. I'll probably tune into the Korean stream tonight.
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Offline sawedust

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« Reply #214 on: Mon, 21 February 2011, 23:47:06 »
Quote from: speakeasy;299173
Kelly is borderline unlistenable. I don't mind her accent so much, but I can't stand when her voice gets high pitched when stuff is going on. I'll probably tune into the Korean stream tonight.


Then what about Artosis hmmm?

Artosis reacts to the GSTL
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Offline sawedust

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« Reply #215 on: Tue, 22 February 2011, 02:30:20 »
GSL Alert!

Two of the world's best players along with a BW legend are playing today in the Code S tournament!  Starting once again at 2310 HST.

As was the format in the previous Code S GSL, it's round robin in the groups where the top two players advance to the next round.

Group A
Set 1: IMmvp (T) oGsHyperdub (T)
Set 2: ST.July (Z) oGsMC (P)
Set 3: Winner of Set 1 < Tal'Darim Altar > Loser of Set 2
Set 4: Winner of Set 2 < Crossfire SE > Loser of Set 1
Set 5: 1st/2nd Place < Metalopolis > 1st/2nd Place
Set 6: 3rd/4th Place < Crossfire SE > 3rd/4th Place

Obviously Group A is the group of death.  IMMVP is regarded as the world's best player in SC2, which makes him the world's best Terran in SC2.  oGsMC is considered the best Protoss in the world and has a very wicked PvT game as we saw in his domination over Terrans in GSL3.  I think these two make it out of this group, but I wouldn't be surprised if July takes one of their spots away.  If anything it would be MC as I haven't seen MC's Zerg play as of late.  But as a fellow Protoss and MC fanboy I'd love to see him make it to the next round.

Group B
Set 1: Bye < Crevasse > TSL.Clide (T)
Set 2: oGsZenio (Z) < Terminus RE > ZeNexByun (T)
Set 3: TSL.Clide (T) < Metalopolis > Loser of Set 2
Set 4: Winner of Set 2 < Terminus RE > Bye
Set 5: 1st/2nd Place < Crevasse > 1st/2nd Place
Set 6: 3rd/4th Place < Shakuras Plateau > 3rd/4th Place

Then we have a somewhat lackluster group as there was a dropout in the gracken from of EGIdrA.  Clide's been underachieving compared to the hype that Tastosis loves to give him.  Byun did well in Code A last season taking second, and he seems to think that he's one of the best Terrans in the world (post-match interview after Code A last season).  Zenio's not a bad Zerg himself, plus he had the luxury of only having to worry about practicing his ZvT for this round.

I think Byun and Zenio make it through this group, but not the RO16 as they'll have to face whoever is one and two among Group A.

Thoughts?
« Last Edit: Tue, 22 February 2011, 02:31:26 by sawedust »
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Offline Crypt

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« Reply #216 on: Tue, 22 February 2011, 03:11:37 »
Hi guys, nice to see all the enthusiasm about the GSL here.  I watch esports to compare how I play vs. how professionals play.  It kinda sucks in that regard when they aren't playing ladder maps.  It almost isn't the same game that I'm playing.

As for predictions, I can't see MVP not winning the GSL again.  In group A, MVP and MC are by far the favorites to make it out.  I don't think Zenio can make it out of group B, really.  I'm not biased towards any player to win, but I'd like to see MVP vs. MC on a ladder map.  :)

Offline hate

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« Reply #217 on: Tue, 22 February 2011, 03:13:52 »
Quote from: sawedust;298832
As for the last point, I think it depends on the player.  Glory or money?  Obviously IdrA thinks he's the greatest player in the world and thus he's going to stick with what gives him the better payoff.

i think his practice environment was a big factor, the lack of practice partners (he cant practice all matchups with ret) and with the failure of establishing a EG pro house in Korea means he simply cannot get top notch practice. he mentioned a lot of times that hes sick with ladder play.

im kind of sad for idra, he seems to be the most unlucky with his picks, playing terran in bw on a protoss infested foreign scene and now with zerg in sc2.

Quote from: sawedust;298832
I absolutely love the new map pool and wish Blizzard would get a hint as to the quality of games on a larger map.  The GSTL was a prime example of how having macro maps leads to much more fun and exciting games.  Most people view macro games coming down to whoever has more skill.

yeah some of the GSTL games were really good and reminded bw management games.

Quote from: sawedust;298832
Cheesy strategies game-after-game may work on ladder, but no longer in a  tournament setting that features macro-oriented maps.

well you still can spawn close on meta or lt in gsl. crossfire seems to be lolosus and sentry heaven. terrans will struggle on the big maps i think, esp vs protoss that can somewhat haras while getting tech tree up (last mvp game in gstl a prime example of this).
« Last Edit: Tue, 22 February 2011, 03:22:40 by hate »
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Offline sawedust

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« Reply #218 on: Tue, 22 February 2011, 04:16:42 »
Quote from: Crypt;299232
Hi guys, nice to see all the enthusiasm about the GSL here.  I watch esports to compare how I play vs. how professionals play.  It kinda sucks in that regard when they aren't playing ladder maps.  It almost isn't the same game that I'm playing.

As for predictions, I can't see MVP not winning the GSL again.  In group A, MVP and MC are by far the favorites to make it out.  I don't think Zenio can make it out of group B, really.  I'm not biased towards any player to win, but I'd like to see MVP vs. MC on a ladder map.  :)


Thing is the Blizzard map pool is absolute crap with Delta Quadrant, Steppes of War, and Blistering Sands as some of the most hated maps in the rotation.  They're poorly designed and could even be considered imba in certain matchups.

The only good maps IMHO in the current rotation are Metal, LT, XNC, and Shakuras.

Blizzard needs to take a hint and integrate these GSL/GSTL maps into the pool.  Not only will it make for better (macro) games overall, but also help players improve as a whole with their overall game.

I understand where you're coming from, but unless we're at that level of play where we have near-perfect macro,a wicked game sense, and 10+ years of competitive Starcraft experience I doubt that a comparison between pros (like MVP and MC) and ourselves would make any sort of difference.

Quote from: hate;299234
i think his practice environment was a big factor, the lack of practice partners (he cant practice all matchups with ret) and with the failure of establishing a EG pro house in Korea means he simply cannot get top notch practice. he mentioned a lot of times that hes sick with ladder play.


I remember reading something about IdrA's ladder play that if he encountered any sort of non-standard play he'd just quit.  Poor guy.  Plus it is true about his practice partners, EG doesn't have the same type of connection that Liquid has with oGs.

Quote from: hate;299234
well you still can spawn close on meta or lt in gsl. crossfire seems to be lolosus and sentry heaven. terrans will struggle on the big maps i think, esp vs protoss that can somewhat haras while getting tech tree up (last mvp game in gstl a prime example of this).


True on LT and Metal, but overall don't you think larger maps lead to more competitive games?  The great Terrans won't struggle due to their superb ability to macro and multitask with drops, ala MVP or MKP.  Play styles continue to evolve and with bigger maps we may see some BW-quality, very exciting games in SC2.

We can bring balance into the discussion, but at not even a year old this game is still brand new and strategies are still being created.
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Offline speakeasy

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« Reply #219 on: Tue, 22 February 2011, 04:53:24 »
Quote from: sawedust;299182
Then what about Artosis hmmm?

Artosis reacts to the GSTL


I have my gripes about Artosis as well, but if you mean to say they are anywhere near comparable in quality, then I just dunno man.
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Offline sawedust

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« Reply #220 on: Tue, 22 February 2011, 05:35:24 »
Quote from: speakeasy;299248
I have my gripes about Artosis as well, but if you mean to say they are anywhere near comparable in quality, then I just dunno man.


Haha naw, just poking fun at that epic casting moment in SC2 history.

Although this sick Artosis isn't doing much for the argument. :(
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Offline speakeasy

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« Reply #221 on: Tue, 22 February 2011, 06:14:48 »
lol I spend time watching the GSL in the teamliquid channel on SC2 and she's almost universally hated there. Though, there were some people that love her and want Artosis replaced for good.
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Offline jdreamer

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« Reply #222 on: Tue, 22 February 2011, 06:15:52 »
By the way, what is your average APM?

I'm sitting at around 150-170, stays in 180-200+ during battles.

Just wondering..
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Offline Twitchy

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« Reply #223 on: Tue, 22 February 2011, 10:43:42 »
I have no problems with Kelly, I think it's a good thing, it'll shake things up a bit. IMO Tasteless and Artosis were getting a bit lax in their attitude sometimes, not taking their jobs so seriously. Don't get me wrong, I like them and their good humour but when a game's playing I want commentary not lessons on guinea pigs! ;)
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Offline Azuremen

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« Reply #224 on: Tue, 22 February 2011, 13:57:29 »
Quote from: sawedust;299165

Could you imagine having Kelly and TotalBiscuit cast GSL Code A.  o_O


Would mean a muted GSL Code A for me. TotalBiscuit and the others I see with the radio broadcaster style voice tend to grate on my (Catspajamas is another) and I just mute them.

Quote from: jdreamer;299259
By the way, what is your average APM?

I'm sitting at around 150-170, stays in 180-200+ during battles.

Just wondering..


80, jumping to 200+ when needed.

Honestly, far too many people get caught up on APM. I see players with 140 average that can't macro and are just so busy spamming up their APM it just is silly. A vast majority of players I see on ladder have higher APMs than me but seem to do far less.
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Offline manfaux

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« Reply #225 on: Tue, 22 February 2011, 14:12:09 »
today's GSL code S games blew my bind, lol.

Offline sawedust

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« Reply #226 on: Tue, 22 February 2011, 21:29:12 »
Quote from: speakeasy;299258
lol I spend time watching the GSL in the teamliquid channel on SC2 and she's almost universally hated there. Though, there were some people that love her and want Artosis replaced for good.


Quote from: Twitchy;299343
I have no problems with Kelly, I think it's a good thing, it'll shake things up a bit. IMO Tasteless and Artosis were getting a bit lax in their attitude sometimes, not taking their jobs so seriously. Don't get me wrong, I like them and their good humour but when a game's playing I want commentary not lessons on guinea pigs! ;)


I think it's because:
a. she has a heavy accent and viewers can't understand her,
b. being inexperienced with the game as a whole,
c. a female in a male-dominated game.

I don't see anything wrong with her as a caster, it was her first cast on an event of this magnitude.  Perhaps she just needs some time to get used to it.  Some say that was the full extent of her casting abilities.  We'll just have to see.

Quote from: jdreamer;299259
By the way, what is your average APM?

I'm sitting at around 150-170, stays in 180-200+ during battles.

Just wondering..


Quote from: Azuremen;299435
80, jumping to 200+ when needed.

Honestly, far too many people get caught up on APM. I see players with 140 average that can't macro and are just so busy spamming up their APM it just is silly. A vast majority of players I see on ladder have higher APMs than me but seem to do far less.


The Day[9] video that refers to APM is really helpful.  Some people think they're playing fast when they're just being inefficient.

As far as APM goes, I don't even keep track.  As long as I'm macroing well and keeping the pressure on my opponent I could care less if I'm at 100 APM or 300 APM.

But to be fair, anything under 60 APM once you hit the midgame and start engaging in battles mean that you're neither macroing properly nor microing your army well.

Quote from: manfaux;299445
today's GSL code S games blew my bind, lol.


I felt so bad for the loser in the last game. :(  He seemed so distraught!
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Offline Crypt

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« Reply #227 on: Wed, 23 February 2011, 02:23:59 »
Quote from: sawedust;299243
I understand where you're coming from, but unless we're at that level of play where we have near-perfect macro,a wicked game sense, and 10+ years of competitive Starcraft experience I doubt that a comparison between pros (like MVP and MC) and ourselves would make any sort of difference.
I think it's not far off in SC2 for an amateur to have perfect macro.  I hope within 6 months, at least all master's league players will be macroing perfectly (money low, constant workers, and buildings exactly when required.)  By comparing myself to pros, I'm not saying that I'm very close to them, but in a lot of areas I'm not far from them, either.  However, I'm mostly interested in their stylistic choices on the maps that I play...whether the map is completely broken or not.  I understand a lot of people just want to see entertaining matches...just throwing out my preference.

Offline sawedust

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« Reply #228 on: Wed, 23 February 2011, 02:36:50 »
Quote from: Crypt;299716
I think it's not far off in SC2 for an amateur to have perfect macro.  I hope within 6 months, at least all master's league players will be macroing perfectly (money low, constant workers, and buildings exactly when required.)  By comparing myself to pros, I'm not saying that I'm very close to them, but in a lot of areas I'm not far from them, either.  However, I'm mostly interested in their stylistic choices on the maps that I play...whether the map is completely broken or not.  I understand a lot of people just want to see entertaining matches...just throwing out my preference.


Understood. :)  I remember when BoxeR came back for the first time playing against the Gracken (I think?) on XNC and everyone applauded him for using the towers' high grounds to siege up on.  It's this kind of creative use of the ladder maps that you're referring to, right?

Anyway GSL Code A back on tonight!  Kelly and Tasteless casting again.  2310 HST start time.

ST.Virus (T) vs. FOXMoon (Z)
GanZi (T) vs. Liquid`Haypro (Z)
ZeNEXCoca (Z) vs. ST.Ace (P)
SlayerSYuGiOh (Z) vs. LeenockfOu (Z)
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Offline Crypt

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« Reply #229 on: Wed, 23 February 2011, 02:56:27 »
Interesting use of terrain is always awesome to see...like Boxer's 3 rax block on Shakuras.  I meant more generally, though...like what opener they decide to use and such.  I thought MVP's TvP on XNC was very interesting vs Tester I think.  He went for blueflame Hellion/drop (failed) and followed up with hellion/marauder/raven/banshee 1 base "all in" against an expanding Protoss.  It's just fascinating to see what styles pros decide to use when winning "matters" with money on the line.  It's a lot different when viewing ladder replays and whatnot because people do a lot of questionable things on there for practice/fun.  There's a lot of connectivity when pros are in the same situations that I'm in.  I recall times when I've been in those cases and how I'd react and see what they do...great fun!  In GSTL when the protoss player made Nexus first, I was just like okay cool, but no one would do that on a standard ladder map, so the rest of the game is just mostly going to be a foreign experience.

Just a random tangent -- my friend says he can beat most players on the ladder but not me because they are nowhere near as aggressive.  I thought about this and figured out that those players probably are afraid of losing when they play.  They won't attack if they think something might fail.  When I play, I just want to learn/improve, so I just attack repeatedly until I'm convinced that something won't work.  This way (making up numbers) I might be attacking 25% at bad times, but they are missing 50% of their attack opportunities.  At the same time, I'm getting feedback of when it's good to attack, and they are just staying clueless.

Offline sawedust

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« Reply #230 on: Wed, 23 February 2011, 03:56:26 »
Quote from: Crypt;299719
Interesting use of terrain is always awesome to see...like Boxer's 3 rax block on Shakuras.  I meant more generally, though...like what opener they decide to use and such.  I thought MVP's TvP on XNC was very interesting vs Tester I think.  He went for blueflame Hellion/drop (failed) and followed up with hellion/marauder/raven/banshee 1 base "all in" against an expanding Protoss.  It's just fascinating to see what styles pros decide to use when winning "matters" with money on the line.

I remember watching some of the pro players and watching Terran use elevators for the first time.  It blew my mind to know how to abuse certain things that each race has.

Quote from: Crypt;299719
It's a lot different when viewing ladder replays and whatnot because people do a lot of questionable things on there for practice/fun.  There's a lot of connectivity when pros are in the same situations that I'm in.  I recall times when I've been in those cases and how I'd react and see what they do...great fun!  In GSTL when the protoss player made Nexus first, I was just like okay cool, but no one would do that on a standard ladder map, so the rest of the game is just mostly going to be a foreign experience.

On ladder, you're allowed to play with a single build in each and/or all of your matchups if you want as it's very likely you're not going to run into the same players two or three times in a row.

Some of the benefits of the ladder is that element of cheese, which gives you practice against it in a situation where you're pressured to perform well.  But outside of tournaments or having excellent practice partners, there's no other way to really practice being in a pressure situation than to play on the ladder.

That's not the case in a Best of X series, where you need to vary your play from game to game.

While playing ladder may not be the ideal situation for most players (see EGIdrA), most people will play their best and play standard.  I find that a lot of the creative/irregular type of plays come in custom games where there's absolutely no pressure to play well.

EDIT: 15 Nexus is actually a pretty good opening at the higher levels against Zerg on larger maps.  The Nexus first allows the Protoss player to pull ahead in economy as Zerg needs to be one base ahead to stay even.  However, it's much easier to go with a 3 gate sentry expand as it's much safer than Nexus/Forge opening.

Quote from: Crypt;299719
Just a random tangent -- my friend says he can beat most players on the ladder but not me because they are nowhere near as aggressive.  I thought about this and figured out that those players probably are afraid of losing when they play.  They won't attack if they think something might fail.

Same thing can be said about professional poker players.  You have to be selectively aggressive, but always pushing and pressuring your opponents.  EGiNcontrol calls the Starcraft equivalent of this as "shark mode."  You want to be poking around at all time, controlling the towers, feign pressure or a push against your opponent, etc.

At the lower levels, indecisiveness and being passive is a downfall of a lot of less experienced and/or lesser-skilled players.  They're too concerned about whether or not something is going to work instead of being confident in their own skills.  This is where the skill gap that Azuremen brought up about units and balance takes effect.

If you're confident in your playing ability and utilize the shark mode mentality, you put your opponent on his or her heels.  By forcing them to play passively and react to your aggression you can force mistakes and/or alter your opponent's plans.

Quote from: Crypt;299719
When I play, I just want to learn/improve, so I just attack repeatedly until I'm convinced that something won't work.  This way (making up numbers) I might be attacking 25% at bad times, but they are missing 50% of their attack opportunities.  At the same time, I'm getting feedback of when it's good to attack, and they are just staying clueless.

Selective aggression and utilize the shark mode mentality.  Learning timings comes with playing a lot of games which also develops your game sense.  We all want to improve yet have fun at the same time!

I find this discussion is not only interesting but helpful!  Let's keep it up!
« Last Edit: Wed, 23 February 2011, 05:12:55 by sawedust »
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Offline speakeasy

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« Reply #231 on: Wed, 23 February 2011, 05:14:42 »
To be fair, Tasteless is pretty damn bad without Artosis at his side as well. I know there might be a lot of new viewers, but he points out the obvious way too much. I wonder why lilsusie isn't casting anymore, maybe I'll ask at the next TLNY meet.
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Offline sawedust

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« Reply #232 on: Wed, 23 February 2011, 05:26:00 »
Quote from: speakeasy;299739
To be fair, Tasteless is pretty damn bad without Artosis at his side as well. I know there might be a lot of new viewers, but he points out the obvious way too much. I wonder why lilsusie isn't casting anymore, maybe I'll ask at the next TLNY meet.


I think it's more of the fact that he has to take over the analysis role instead of the play-by-play and entertainment role.  It doesn't help that his casting partner is a downgrade from Artosis as far as player skill and experience goes, but he's doing an excellent job to cover for Kelly's inexperience.
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Offline speakeasy

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« Reply #233 on: Wed, 23 February 2011, 06:25:13 »
See, that R. Kelly joke is why I still enjoy tasteless despite his poor commentary. Kelly has yet to demonstrate that she has any redeeming qualities to me. But that's enough from me about that, I'll keep an open mind.

I'm really excited for the next set of matches. Betting on NaDa, Jinro, Top and Check, though I'd be happy if ITR beat Check. I'd bet on ITR if it were the old map pool, but the new map pool favors Check IMO.
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Offline JinDesu

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« Reply #234 on: Thu, 24 February 2011, 11:03:02 »
Quote from: speakeasy;299739
To be fair, Tasteless is pretty damn bad without Artosis at his side as well. I know there might be a lot of new viewers, but he points out the obvious way too much. I wonder why lilsusie isn't casting anymore, maybe I'll ask at the next TLNY meet.


I've heard that she's pretty busy with her full time job, so she doesn't want to drop it for part time casting.
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Offline Azuremen

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« Reply #235 on: Fri, 25 February 2011, 02:43:46 »
Quote from: sawedust;299646
The Day[9] video that refers to APM is really helpful.  Some people think they're playing fast when they're just being inefficient.

As far as APM goes, I don't even keep track.  As long as I'm macroing well and keeping the pressure on my opponent I could care less if I'm at 100 APM or 300 APM.

But to be fair, anything under 60 APM once you hit the midgame and start engaging in battles mean that you're neither macroing properly nor microing your army well.


I'd agree. And it varies from race to race. When I play as Zerg, my APM floats more around 110 on average in a 15 to 20 minute game, while my Protoss will sit a bit lower.

Really, it is just important that your actions scale with the game. Often if I go to 5 bases and am playing well, my APM will be over 100 on average with P just from all the macro and making sure I don't float money by applying constant pressure and harass. But in a 10 minute game the average will be more around 60, simply not as much stuff to do.
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Offline manfaux

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« Reply #236 on: Fri, 25 February 2011, 09:21:51 »
I don't  think I can watch code A anymore, this kelly chick needs to stop mumbling and talk slower, I thought Jason Lee was bad.

Offline sawedust

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« Reply #237 on: Fri, 25 February 2011, 14:55:30 »
Haven't been online much in the past few days, been too busy with real life problems that I needed to take care of.  Now that everything's alright I can get back to some SC2 action!  Been desperately missing out on it.

But one thing's for sure, that break really helped me regain some confidence in my play.  Went 4-1 on ladder this morning, ended my day at 2975 diamond or so.  Got a few easy wins because my opponents tried to cheese me and failed, so I was very glad about that.

Missed out on the past couple of GSLs too!  Gonna have to watch the replays and see what I missed.

Quote from: Azuremen;300689
I'd agree. And it varies from race to race. When I play as Zerg, my APM floats more around 110 on average in a 15 to 20 minute game, while my Protoss will sit a bit lower.

Really, it is just important that your actions scale with the game. Often if I go to 5 bases and am playing well, my APM will be over 100 on average with P just from all the macro and making sure I don't float money by applying constant pressure and harass. But in a 10 minute game the average will be more around 60, simply not as much stuff to do.


Very true.  As Zerg, there are so many more things that you have to do which is why APM is naturally higher.  Spreading creep, injecting larva, hatching units, rallying units.  So maaaaany thiiiings.  That's probably the reason why I can't play Zerg very well.  It's very unforgiving to the point where one mistake can cost you the entire game.

As long as we remember to keep making units throughout the game along with simple micro, there's no reason why we can't hit 100 APM easily.  Overall APM isn't necessarily an important thing to worry about at our level of play.  The only thing I can see it being useful for is to pseudo-impress your lower level SC2 friends into thinking you're extremely good. :/

Quote from: manfaux;300803
I don't  think I can watch code A anymore, this kelly chick needs to stop mumbling and talk slower, I thought Jason Lee was bad.


I think it's more of the gameplay in Code A than it is the commentating for me.  Compared to Code S, I don't find much interest in these games as they aren't as exciting.  It doesn't matter who's casting the games there IMO as they don't offer much entertainment value to me anyway.
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Offline manfaux

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« Reply #238 on: Fri, 25 February 2011, 15:00:49 »
Quote from: sawedust;300970

I think it's more of the gameplay in Code A than it is the commentating for me.  Compared to Code S, I don't find much interest in these games as they aren't as exciting.  It doesn't matter who's casting the games there IMO as they don't offer much entertainment value to me anyway.


True, that combined with Dame Kelly's horrid accent just make code A worse than it already is. Although those SuperNova-Squirtle games were great, I urge everyone to watch them.

Offline sawedust

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« Reply #239 on: Sat, 26 February 2011, 00:34:06 »
GSL Code S is on right now!  Apologies for not posting this up earlier.

Set 1: IMNesTea (Z) < Shakuras Plateau > NSHoSeo.San (P)
Set 2: SlayerSBoxeR (T) < Tal'Darim Altar > oGsEnsnare (T)
Set 3: Winner of Set 1 < Xel'Naga Caverns > Loser of Set 2
Set 4: Winner of Set 2 < Tal'Darim Altar > Loser of Set 1
Set 5: 3rd/4th Place < Shakuras Plateau > 3rd/4th Place
Set 6: 1st/2nd Place < Shakuras Plateau > 1st/2nd Place

I placed my Liquibets on BoxeR and Nestea for obvious reasons, but as a Protoss player myself I'm really hoping for San to do well!  I felt like he was cheesed out of GSL and his up and down matches still showed a lot of nerves for him.

Set 1: choyafOu (P) < Scrap Station > FOXLyn (T)
Set 2: NSHoSeo.Banbanssu (P) < Terminus RE > oGsTheWinD (Z)
Set 3: Winner of Set 1 < Terminus RE > Loser of Set 2
Set 4: Winner of Set 2 < Tal'Darim Altar > Loser of Set 1
Set 5: 3rd/4th Place < Metalopolis > 3rd/4th Place
Set 6: 1st/2nd Place < Tal'Darim Altar > 1st/2nd Place

Once again cheering for my Brotoss!  Choya should make it out of this group as he's been more consistent in all the previous GSLs over the other ones.

Overall a lot of great games today!  Looking forward to seeing the discussion about these later.
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Offline Azuremen

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« Reply #240 on: Sat, 26 February 2011, 00:34:08 »
I feel bad for Kelly, she is likely nervous and you can hear her accent change according to the situation. I'd give her a bit more time to get use to the gig before I pass too much judgement. Though yes, at the moment her voice isn't particularly attractive with the accent at the moment, but shrug.

More interesting is the PTR patch that just game out, 1.3. The full notes can be found here but I'll just quote the balance changes.

Quote from: Blizzard, PTR 1.3
Balance

GENERAL
Players can no longer hide units by setting them in a close proximity patrol (Viking flower).
 
PROTOSS
Mothership
-Units leaving the Mothership's Vortex are now un-targetable and immune to damage for 1.5 seconds.
High Templar
-Khaydarin Amulet upgrade (+25 starting energy) has been removed.
Zealot
-Charging Zealots will now hit fleeing targets at least once.
 
TERRAN
Battlecruiser
-Movement speed increased from 1.406 to 1.875.
Bunker
-Build time increased from 35 to 40 seconds.
Tech Lab
-Stimpack upgrade research time increased from 140 to 170 seconds.
 
ZERG
Infestor
-Health increased from 90 to 110.
-Fungal Growth
-Stun duration decreased from 8 to 4 seconds.
-Damage increased by +30% vs. armored units.
-Now fires a missile instead of being instant cast.

Honestly, it is like Blizzard wants people to not use the Mothership for anything besides late game recall busting. And for P to only go Colossi in every match up with that Amulet removal. The Charge bit on Zealots is nice, but really Blizzard, discourage opting for something besides Colossi even more?

It will be neat to see BCs more often, and the Bunker and Stim times will reduce the effectiveness of early Terran pressure a bit, but I don't see it changing the match up enough to merit the removal of Amulet, which was the late game option that P could produce to force a transition out of pure MMM with some Vikings from T.

The Infestor buffs are good, as they are a bit too fragile at the moment and Fungal took a bit too long to do its damage before, and the extra damage will make them a touch more effective against Stalkers and Marauders.

But I really feel like Blizzard has some things mixed up in their heads. There is already almost no reason to build a Fleet Beacon now that they removed Flux Vanes, and nerfing the MS a bit doesn't make any sense.
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Offline speakeasy

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« Reply #241 on: Sat, 26 February 2011, 03:26:23 »
I got everything wrong on liquibet LOL!

[edit] also, screw the patch! they took away my BBS rush, now my bunker rushes and early stim timings :(
« Last Edit: Sat, 26 February 2011, 03:29:32 by speakeasy »
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Offline manfaux

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« Reply #242 on: Sat, 26 February 2011, 11:16:26 »
Just played PTR, 4 sec is definitely too short, it feels like Psi Storm now lol

every other change is pretty good.

Offline Crypt

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« Reply #243 on: Sun, 27 February 2011, 18:02:36 »
Some comments on the proposed changes (I'm primarily a Terran player in 1v1):

Stim nerf probably won't change TvZ too much, but it's going to shift TvP to late game where P is considered stronger already.

The HT energy nerf is intended to deny the ability to instantly spawn and psi storm defend distant expos from what I can gather.

The bunker nerf is probably intended to stop 2 rax bunker rushes, but I don't think it'll change anything.  I imagine it to have a stronger effect against reactive defensive bunkering.

Fungal buff -- I'd have to see it in action.  Naturally, it forces more tank use, which mutas are good against.  But, gas supply will be lighter after production of infestors, so I'd have to see how it plays out.

The Vortex nerf is because AOE spells are doing more damage than intended since units exiting Vortex ignore collision and clump up too much (archon toilet).  I think the mothership still has plenty of use, and it's not even a game balancing unit (as in, most games end without a mothership being created.)  This may change if/when larger maps are played, though.

Offline sawedust

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« Reply #244 on: Mon, 28 February 2011, 02:30:34 »
Quote from: Azuremen;301235
More interesting is the PTR patch that just game out, 1.3. The full notes can be found here but I'll just quote the balance changes.

Honestly, it is like Blizzard wants people to not use the Mothership for anything besides late game recall busting. And for P to only go Colossi in every match up with that Amulet removal. The Charge bit on Zealots is nice, but really Blizzard, discourage opting for something besides Colossi even more?

It will be neat to see BCs more often, and the Bunker and Stim times will reduce the effectiveness of early Terran pressure a bit, but I don't see it changing the match up enough to merit the removal of Amulet, which was the late game option that P could produce to force a transition out of pure MMM with some Vikings from T.

But I really feel like Blizzard has some things mixed up in their heads. There is already almost no reason to build a Fleet Beacon now that they removed Flux Vanes, and nerfing the MS a bit doesn't make any sense.


As much as I want to jump in on the Brotoss hate on not having the extra energy available from Khydarian Amulet, I think it's a move where it forces the Toss player to make an early decision in going HT in order for Storm to be useful.  As a Protoss player myself I am quite disappointed in that decision, but I somewhat see the reasoning behind it.  Just gonna have to make more Colossi and Phoenix now.

Not once have I ever built a Fleet Beacon.  Ever.

Quote from: speakeasy;301263
I got everything wrong on liquibet LOL!

[edit] also, screw the patch! they took away my BBS rush, now my bunker rushes and early stim timings :(


So did I. *smh*  I missed the BBS rush, but looks like it forces Terran to go into the midgame now.  Not that they can't rush with 2 Rax SCV, but the nerf on Stim is really going to affect early timing pushes.

Quote from: Crypt;301907
Some comments on the proposed changes (I'm primarily a Terran player in 1v1):

Stim nerf probably won't change TvZ too much, but it's going to shift TvP to late game where P is considered stronger already.

The HT energy nerf is intended to deny the ability to instantly spawn and psi storm defend distant expos from what I can gather.

The bunker nerf is probably intended to stop 2 rax bunker rushes, but I don't think it'll change anything.  I imagine it to have a stronger effect against reactive defensive bunkering.

Fungal buff -- I'd have to see it in action.  Naturally, it forces more tank use, which mutas are good against.  But, gas supply will be lighter after production of infestors, so I'd have to see how it plays out.

The Vortex nerf is because AOE spells are doing more damage than intended since units exiting Vortex ignore collision and clump up too much (archon toilet).  I think the mothership still has plenty of use, and it's not even a game balancing unit (as in, most games end without a mothership being created.)  This may change if/when larger maps are played, though.


Pretty much, for everything.  I'm still disappointed in the removal of the archon toilet, that was fun to watch as a viewer.  Though I can see its use to rescue units and make them invincible... against certain armies it's just prolonging the death.
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Offline sawedust

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« Reply #245 on: Mon, 28 February 2011, 02:45:10 »
GSL Code A on tonight!  2300 HST, please adjust for your time zone.

Cute aka MVPNoblesse (T) vs MakaPrime.WE (T)
TSL_Alive (T) vs oGsCezanne (Z)
SlayerS_Jjob (T) vs Liquid`Ret (Z)
TSL_Killer (P) vs oGsJookTo (Z)

Let's go Killer aka SangHo!
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Offline Azuremen

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« Reply #246 on: Mon, 28 February 2011, 06:27:45 »
Quote from: sawedust;302054
As much as I want to jump in on the Brotoss hate on not having the extra energy available from Khydarian Amulet, I think it's a move where it forces the Toss player to make an early decision in going HT in order for Storm to be useful.  As a Protoss player myself I am quite disappointed in that decision, but I somewhat see the reasoning behind it.  Just gonna have to make more Colossi and Phoenix now.

Not once have I ever built a Fleet Beacon.  Ever.


The Amulet could use some adjustment, but to just remove it from the game is a bit much. 45 seconds is ages to wait for an HT to have storm at any stage of the game, and will just make EMP that much better. Even Jinro thinks it is a bit too much of a change.

As for the Fleet Beacon, you are missing out on some funny builds that mess with people. I've done some 2 base Carrier play against Zerg and it is quite amusing to watch how the react. I had one guy fly into my base after I did a Forge FE with Mutas only to find 2 Carriers with +1, and combined with Chargelots will decimate Hydras if they opt for that. If they go Corrupter, cuts into their ground army heavily and you can just over run them with Gateway units. I haven't done it in ages but it is tempting to consider again in the current meta game.
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Offline manfaux

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« Reply #247 on: Mon, 28 February 2011, 19:48:05 »
last night's game was hilarious, watch Sangho vs. Jookto 's last game:

Kelly: I think Code A is fiwefi*&^%#fiwhufh Code S
Artosis: Huh?

LOL i fell off my chair laughing.

Offline sawedust

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« Reply #248 on: Tue, 01 March 2011, 03:33:24 »
GSL Code S is on again tonight and has already started! (2310 HST, your time may vary)

Set 1: TSL.Trickster (P) < Metalopolis > anyproPrime.WE (P)
Set 2: MvPGenius (P) < Shakuras Plateau > TSL.Fruitdealer (Z)
Set 3: Winner of Set 1 < Shakuras Plateau > Loser of Set 2
Set 4: Winner of Set 2 < Xel'Naga Caverns > Loser of Set 1
Set 5: 3rd/4th Place < Tal'Darim Altar > 3rd/4th Place
Set 6: 1st/2nd Place < Tal'Darim Altar > 1st/2nd Place

Cheering for Trickster and Genius!  Always enjoyed Ki Soo's play since the beta.  I like Genius as well because of his BM-like attitude towards others.  Strong personalities always make for an exciting matchup.  As much as I want Fruitdealer to succeed because of his troubles in games lately, I don't think he'll make it out of the top two.

Set 1: MarineKingPrime.WE (T) < Terminus RE > ZeNEXKyrix (Z)
Set 2: sCfOu (T) < Tal'Darim Altar > oGsInCa (P)
Set 3: Winner of Set 1 < Xel'Naga Caverns > Loser of Set 2
Set 4: Winner of Set 2 < Terminus RE > Loser of Set 1
Set 5: 3rd/4th Place < Tal'Darim Altar > 3rd/4th Place
Set 6: 1st/2nd Place < Shakuras Plateau > 1st/2nd Place

Going for MKP and Inca here.  MKP has been such a powerful player over all of the GSL seasons and without MVP and Nestea to deal with (leaving only oGsMC) the door is wide open for him to win his first GSL.

Only choosing Inca because he's a Brotoss :P
« Last Edit: Tue, 01 March 2011, 03:37:35 by sawedust »
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Offline manfaux

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« Reply #249 on: Tue, 01 March 2011, 19:45:08 »
Quote from: sawedust;302610
Going for MKP and Inca here.  MKP has been such a powerful player over all of the GSL seasons and without MVP and Nestea to deal with (leaving only oGsMC) the door is wide open for him to win his first GSL.

Only choosing Inca because he's a Brotoss :P

ownd.

The up/down matches this season is gonna be like Code S semifinals, lmao.