geekhack
geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: alpslover on Thu, 06 November 2008, 20:59:20
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i've been using a das iii for several months, and since the beginning, accuracy has been a problem at higher speeds. for example, i found myself typing 'teh' instead of 'the' a lot more frequently on the das than on other keyboards. i've also noticed what could be best described as input lag when i get a nice typing rhythm going. not terribly huge, but just enough to be mildly annoying.
i always thought that it was me, but now i'm not so sure.
i stuck with the das because i like the feel and sound of blue cherries, the keyboard's decently made and looks kinda neat, adn (<--i'm using the das iii now and this is another typo pattern i make on a regular basis, and i'm going to leave this as is for reasons that will become apparent later) the 12-key rollover is a nice featuer (<--another one).
ironcially (<--another), it's the rollover behavior of the das that clued me in.
here's the das with the a, s, d, and f keys pressed at the same time. first with just one hand, then with the other, then with the index and middle fingers on each hand, and even with the index and middle fingers of my left hand hitting d and f, and the index and middle fingers hitting a and s:
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
here's an alps glidepoint (ps/2), chosen at random from my keyboard collection:
fdas
fdas
sfda
fdas
asfd
fdas
asfd
sfda
sfda
sfda
asfd
fdas
asfd
fdsa
fdas
asfd
asfd
sfda
fdas
asfd
sdaf
asfd
asfd
sfad
sfda
asfd
sdaf
asfd
asdf
asfd
asfd
sfda
asfd
asfd
asfd
asfd
sdaf
dasf
dasf
sfda
asfd
i did these 4 keys because the glidepoint works okay with them.
see a pattern here?
the das always gives the same rollover pattern, but i know for a fact that my fingers weren't hitting the asdf pattern exactly in that order each time, and my fingers certainly weren't actuating those 4 switches at EXACTLY the same instant, every single time (it would make sense for the keyboard to output a given pattern consistently if the keyswitches were actuated at precisely the same instant because typing is inherently character-by-character...the keyboard essentially has no choice but to give priority to one key over another if both are hit at exactly the same instant. either that, or block the keys completely.)
as i started seeing the pattern emerging on the das, i even intentionally 'biased' the keypresses ever so slightly to try to get a 'fdsa' pattern to show up, but it didn't, even when i KNEW that that pattern would show up on other keyboards with the keys pressed that same way (you get a feel for these things after typing on keyboards for years and years).
now, regarding the typos i pointed out at the beginning:
das keyboard, e and h keys:
eh
eh
eh
eh
eh
eh
eh
eh
eh
eh
he
eh
eh
eh
eh
eh
eh
eh
eh
eh
eh
eh
eh
eh
eh
eh
eh
glidepoint:
eh
he
eh
eh
he
he
he
he
he
he
he
he
eh
eh
eh
he
he
he
eh
he
eh
eh
eh
he
he
he
he
eh
eh
he
das, d and n keys:
dn
dn
dn
dn
dn
dn
dn
dn
dn
dn
dn
dn
dn
dn
dn
dn
dn
dn
dn
dn
dn
dn
dn
glidepoint:
nd
nd
nd
nd
nd
nd
nd
dn
nd
nd
nd
nd
dn
nd
dn
nd
nd
nd
nd
nd
nd
nd
nd
dn
dn
dn
dn
dn
nd
nd
dn
nd
dn
nd
nd
dn
nd
das, e and r keys:
er
er
er
er
er
er
er
er
er
er
er
er
er
re
er
er
er
er
er
er
glidepoint:
re
re
er
re
er
re
re
re
re
re
re
er
re
re
re
re
re
re
re
er
er
das keyboard, i and c keys:
ci
ci
ci
ci
ci
ci
ci
ci
ci
ci
ci
ci
ic
ci
ic
ci
ci
ci
ci
ci
ci
ci
ci
ci
glidepoint:
ic
ic
ic
ic
ic
ic
ic
ic
ic
ci
ic
ic
c
ic
ic
ci
ic
i don't know why the das behaves this way, but perhaps it is related to the way it detects and handles simultaneous key presses, and might also have something to do with the input lag i sometimes perceive when typing very quickly on the das.
what i'm speculating is, and this is based solely on observation, perhaps there is a certain length of time during which if multiple keys are pressed sequentially, the keyboard detects them as being simultaneous presses. but because typing is done character-by-character, the keyboard needs to send the characters one at a time, but with multiple simultaneous keypresses, it has to send them in SOME kind of order, which it does consistently (thus the asdf, asdf, asdf).
so, for the sake of argument let's say that this length of time were 50ms. if i were to press the h key followed by the e key within that 50ms, the keyboard considers that simultaneous, and sends out the sequence as 'eh', because that's the way it was programmed. so i'm flying along and i've ended up with 'teh' instead of 'the'. the keyboard can't keep up with me. but if i slow down a bit and hit the e key, say, 60ms after the h key, the keyboard sees two separate keystrokes, and in the correct order.
when i do the rollover test, i bet i'm hitting the e and h keys within that 50ms. in reality, sometimes i'm hitting the e followed by the h, and other times the h followed by the e, and every once in a while hitting them at exactly the same instant. but it doesn't matter, because as long as both keys are hit within 50ms of each other, the keyboard sees the inputs as simultaneous, and outputs 'eh' each time.
now maybe the keyboards i've used previously had a shorter 'lag' (for lack of a better term) time than 50ms, and that's why i haven't had this problem with them.
but, thinking back to what dmw said in the 'what's this?' thread about how usb keyboards work, this problem may not actually be the keyboard's fault, perhaps it's due to the way usb keyboards are handled by the operating system (windows xp in my case) that is causing this behavior.
the das is the first usb keyboard i've used on a regular basis, all of my previous keyboards have been ps/2.
at work tomorrow i'll have access to other usb keyboards to test.
in the meantime, any thoughts?
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accuracy has been a problem at higher speeds. for example, i found myself typing 'teh' instead of 'the' a lot more frequently on the das than on other keyboards. i've also noticed what could be best described as input lag when i get a nice typing rhythm going. not terribly huge, but just enough to be mildly annoying
Hmm, thats disturbing. I just bought one! I'm going to receive it in 2 days, I can tell you if I'm seeing anything similar.
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the das always gives the same rollover pattern, but i know for a fact that my fingers weren't hitting the asdf pattern exactly in that order each time
IF this is true, this is really a keyboard design error.
but, thinking back to what dmw said in the 'what's this?' thread about how usb keyboards work, this problem may not actually be the keyboard's fault, perhaps it's due to the way usb keyboards are handled by the operating system (windows xp in my case) that is causing this behavior.
do we know for a fact that other usb boards do it this way? and that therefore maybe its OS systemic error rather than board or microchip design flaw?
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do we know for a fact that other usb boards do it this way? and that therefore maybe its OS systemic error rather than board or microchip design flaw?
i don't know yet. here at home the das is the only usb keyboard i've got. i'll be able to test other usb keyboards at work tomorrow.
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i don't know yet. here at home the das is the only usb keyboard i've got. i'll be able to test other usb keyboards at work tomorrow.
Well thinking back on all the usb keyboards I've used I dont recall typos like that showing up in any systematic way. I tried the asdf test on my my laptop keyboard right now and it does vary each time.
My feeling is this is unique to DAS (or to a SUBSET of usb boards that are using same microcircuitry perhaps). In which case its a design flaw really. And that would bum me out to see this on high end expensive boards like the das. (especially when they're so PURDY!).
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That same thing happens to me all the time. I have never typed the word "just" properly on the first try — I always get "jsut." I get my fair share of "teh" and "popele" ans sh*t like that. And then there are THe o9nes lik ethat. KLnow what I'm saying?
I can't type off a document because I never learned to and because I'm a key watcher, but since I started writing, I've always preferred to create on a keyboard, so I am one of the fastest people I know on a keyboard but I can't ever take a test. When I type in the newsroom, people look over at me because I am typing so fast. Because of this I get a lot of errors but it doesn't take too long to fix, and it is worth it to me to be able to type as fast as the thoughts come to me. And when I get into a zone — and I'm not too slanted ... — this happens less than normal, so I end up with cleaner copy.
And my speed has vastly increased since I started typing exclusively on *mechanical* keyboards, which is why I'll never be off them until their is something better.
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i'm not sure if this could represent a fix (probably not), but i remember the old days with ps2 mouses, then their sampling rate was 60Hz which was giving quite unevenly mouse movement, then it was common to put the ps2 port to 100Hz which made the mouse movement more smooth and pleasant. today's default usb sample rate is 125Hz, this giving us 8ms between scanning of each keyboard state, which really can be a problem. I think that the usb port can be 'overclocked' by software to something like 1000Hz (I don't know how the das can handle this and i think this is way too much for a keyboard, but let's stay on 1000 because this can be more easily calculated). If you do this, then the keyboard will report its state 8 times more frequently to the computer, which may be exactly what you need - more precision between the different key presses. this is just an idea. thus said my usb hhkb pro doesn't suffer from this problem, but we know that das iii is doing something internally to achieve 12 key rollover over usb (normally 6), which can have some side effects, some of which probably related to your problem...
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i'm not sure if this could represent a fix (probably not), but i remember the old days with ps2 mouses, then their sampling rate was 60Hz which was giving quite unevenly mouse movement, then it was common to put the ps2 port to 100Hz which made the mouse movement more smooth and pleasant. today's default usb sample rate is 125Hz, this giving us 8ms between scanning of each keyboard state, which really can be a problem. I think that the usb port can be 'overclocked' by software to something like 1000Hz (I don't know how the das can handle this and i think this is way too much for a keyboard, but let's stay on 1000 because this can be more easily calculated). If you do this, then the keyboard will report its state 8 times more frequently to the computer, which may be exactly what you need - more precision between the different key presses. this is just an idea. thus said my usb hhkb pro doesn't suffer from this problem, but we know that das iii is doing something internally to achieve 12 key rollover over usb (normally 6), which can have some side effects, some of which probably related to your problem...
sounds plausible to me... alpslover, you want to overclock your usb port and do the experiment?
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I get the same thing with my G80-3000 and Cherry blues:
asdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdf
sounds plausible to me... alpslover, you want to overclock your usb port and do the experiment?
It is routinely done with mice, and here is a link (http://www.overclock.net/faqs/73418-how-improve-mouse-response-accuracy-changing.html) about how to do it. If I get time I might give it a go myself.
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I get the same thing with my G80-3000 and Cherry blues:
asdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdf
well the g80-3000 is identical to the das, right? (ie, the internals are the same, I believe). So that would make sense I guess if you're seeing the same response there.
Would be interesting to see if overclocking usb port helps.
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well the g80-3000 is identical to the das, right?
Not Das I, which was a rubber dome keyboard. Das II is the rebranded G80-3000.
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For the record, my smk88 USB board does vary as well when I hit asdf. So again I'm thinking this is unique to das or similar boards only.
Wonder if M10 scorpius does it.
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Alpslover, how many words a minute do you type?
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i'm not sure if this could represent a fix (probably not), but i remember the old days with ps2 mouses, then their sampling rate was 60Hz which was giving quite unevenly mouse movement, then it was common to put the ps2 port to 100Hz which made the mouse movement more smooth and pleasant. today's default usb sample rate is 125Hz, this giving us 8ms between scanning of each keyboard state, which really can be a problem. I think that the usb port can be 'overclocked' by software to something like 1000Hz (I don't know how the das can handle this and i think this is way too much for a keyboard, but let's stay on 1000 because this can be more easily calculated). If you do this, then the keyboard will report its state 8 times more frequently to the computer, which may be exactly what you need - more precision between the different key presses. this is just an idea.
i thought of this as well, and tried it. i set the usb polling rate to 1000Hz but it didn't make a difference.
thus said my usb hhkb pro doesn't suffer from this problem, but we know that das iii is doing something internally to achieve 12 key rollover over usb (normally 6), which can have some side effects, some of which probably related to your problem...
i was thinking the same thing, but just now i tried an hp usb keyboard (a cheap rubber dome keyboard without rollover) and it exhibits the same behavior.
it's almost as if the keyboard's microcontroller isn't scanning the keys fast enough and is interpreting fast sequential key presses as simultaneous.
i'm going to take this hp keyboard apart later and make a note of the ic part numbers. there must be something in common with these keyboards for them to exhibit the same type of behavior.
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I get the same thing with my G80-3000 and Cherry blues:
asdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdf
is this a ps/2 or usb keyboard?
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Alpslover, how many words a minute do you type?
about 110 when i get a nice rhythm going.
the thing is though, i don't necessarily need to work up to a nice fast rhythm for these typos to occur. sometimes i'll type just a few words into a search box and i'll get 'teh' instead of 'the'. this is actually more annoying than making the same typo when i'm flying at max speed, because when i'm typing really fast, i expect to make some mistakes.
so it's not so much the overall typing speed, but rather very fast key sequences that throw the keyboard off.
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is this a ps/2 or usb keyboard?
usb.
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Have you tried it with a USB to PS/2 adapter? Does it still exhibit the same behavior?
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I bet it would. It sounds like they hardcoded some type of hierarchy into the rollover support since USB throughput is less than PS2, thus "cheating" the system to simulate full n-key rollover. This way it could buffer the sausage-fingered keys and send them when it could. I suppose in this case, typing very fast "appears" like pressing multiple keys simultaneously.
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Have you tried it with a USB to PS/2 adapter? Does it still exhibit the same behavior?
the das iii is meant to be usb only, so the passive usb to ps/2 adapters i have don't work. i haven't been able to find any active ones.
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I bet it would. It sounds like they hardcoded some type of hierarchy into the rollover support since USB throughput is less than PS2, thus "cheating" the system to simulate full n-key rollover. This way it could buffer the sausage-fingered keys and send them when it could. I suppose in this case, typing very fast "appears" like pressing multiple keys simultaneously.
i thought it might be related to the das's 12-key rollover support as well, but apparently some other usb keyboards which don't have rollover also exhibit the same issues.
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It happens to me differently on different sections of the board. I can get the asdf to repeat no problem, but other four key combinations aren't so easy. It is very easy to do three keys on the number pad (789789789789789789789789789789789789789). Two keys is easy anywhere. The numbers on the top row of the keyboard will only type something if one or two keys are pressed.
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It happens to me differently on different sections of the board. I can get the asdf to repeat no problem, but other four key combinations aren't so easy. It is very easy to do three keys on the number pad (789789789789789789789789789789789789789). Two keys is easy anywhere. The numbers on the top row of the keyboard will only type something if one or two keys are pressed.
yes, that means your keyboard doesn't have n-key rollover support, meaning that there's no guarantee that the keyboard will register all non-modifier keypresses if you depress more than one simultaneously.
keyboards with n-key rollover will register each and every key that's pressed at the same time.
there's supposed to be a 6-key limitation for usb keyboards, but the das iii manages to get around it, probably by buffering the additional depressed keys and sending the keyboard state with those keys in the next report.
it does seem, though, that your keyboard has the same issue as the das, for those keys that it does register simultaneously.
here's the ps/2 keyboard i'm using at work, connected to the pc via a ps/2 to usb adapter, hitting the 7, 8, and 9 keys on the number pad:
798
978
798
897
789
789
789
789
789
789
897
897
789
978
789
798
978
789
897
98
897
it doesn't have a consistently repeating pattern like your keyboard does. your keyboard may actually be okay if your fingers in fact actually are consistently and repeatedly actuating the 789 keys exactly in that sequence, or if you really are actuating those switches at EXACTLY the same instant, every single time. try switching hands to see if the pattern changes, using both hands at once, or even 'biasing' your keystrokes slightly to break the pattern. that's what i did on the das and the patterns still didn't change. eventually they did break if i biased my keystrokes just enough.
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Wonder if M10 scorpius does it.
my scorpius says:
dfsa
fdsa
fdsa
fdsa
fdsa
fdsa
fdsa
fdsa
dfsa
fdsa
dfsa
asdf
fdsa
sdfa
fasd
fdsa
fdsa
dsfa
sdfa
dsfa
sfad
879
879
789
879
798
789
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afsd
afds
asdf
afsd
fads
fads
fasd
asdf
fdas
afds
Model M ;)
the das iii is meant to be usb only, so the passive usb to ps/2 adapters i have don't work. i haven't been able to find any active ones.
Ah, I see. Does it have its own drivers or does it just use the built in ones?
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Does it have its own drivers or does it just use the built in ones?
it uses the built-in generic hid usb drivers. the pc i'm using has ps/2 ports, but this particular keyboard behaves oddly when plugged into the ps/2 port. it works fine with the ps/2 to usb adapter. strangely enough, model m's don't have any issues plugged directly into the ps/2 port.
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I bet its the keyboard chipset and the 12-key rollover thing. My das is arriving tomorrow, i'll test it soon as it comes. (and return it if its doing it!!!!)
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I bet its the keyboard chipset and the 12-key rollover thing. My das is arriving tomorrow, i'll test it soon as it comes. (and return it if its doing it!!!!)
i'd bet that it would behave the same way in the rollover test, but you may not necessarily run into the problem during normal typing, so it'd be a shame to return an otherwise very good keyboard simply for that reason. after all, there are several people here with das iii's and other keyboards that 'fail' the test, but haven't mentioned anything about consistent typo patterns when actually using the keyboards.
i wouldn't even care about the repeating patterns in the rollover test if i didn't actually run into them in normal typing. the rollover test was just my attempt to find an explanation for the problem.
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it'd be a shame to return an otherwise very good keyboard simply for that reason
well, I dont want it to be producing typos! I guess I'll type on it for a couple of days and see if its an annoying problem. Sounds you type faster than me anyway (I type about 90wpm) so maybe I wont see the problem as often as you do... I'll try it out first. But everytime I make a typo I'm going to tend to blame the 'board! ;)
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But everytime I make a typo I'm going to tend to blame the 'board!
if you make these typos noticeably more often on the das than on your other keyboards, and the pattern of the typos is consistent with the output displayed when pressing the keys at the same time in a rollover test, then it may very well be the keyboard.
in the beginning i'd assumed it was just me, that i had to get used to the earlier actuation point of the cherry switches (this was my first cherry-switched keyboard), but what planted the initial seed of suspicion was that often even after i KNEW my fingers hit the keys in the correct sequence, the characters still came out wrong.
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even after i KNEW my fingers hit the keys in the correct sequence, the characters still came out wrong.
On my new DAS III Professional which just arrived today: Behold!
eth
eth
eth
eth
eth
eth
eth
eth
eth
eth
eth
eth
eth
eth
And I too KNOW I was hitting the H key first a efw times in that sequence (and just now it typed "efw" instead of few! Quick test: )
wefwefwefwefwefwefwefwefwefwefwefwefwewefwefwef
Hmmmmm. It does follow the efw sequence!
its a pity because I love the key feel and noise of the blue cherries.
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In all honesty, this is one of those things I would have assumed that it was my fault and therefore not noticed it and would have been happy with this board. But now that I've been made aware of it in the keyboard's design, I'm quite indignant.
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I have to say I am more than a bit disgusted by this revelation. The list of vendors (at least in the US, anyway) that really cater to "us folk" is pretty small...and it sucks to see that one of them is pimpin' a sub-par product (at a premium price).
They need to step up, fix the problem, and issue a recall.
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They need to step up, fix the problem, and issue a recall.
maybe they're not aware of the issue. i haven't contacted their tech support about this, as i first wanted to get some feedback from other owners to see if they've experienced the same problem.
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maybe they're not aware of the issue. i haven't contacted their tech support about this, as i first wanted to get some feedback from other owners to see if they've experienced the same problem.
Someone (and my eyes are wandering over to iMav) should contact them and let them know. Who knows, maybe they'll offer a replacement? or a rebate? ;) After all this information is now on the most visited keyboard forum in the US. Its bound to be a wake up call for them.
If this isnt, the plummetting sales chart as they go into December will be ;)
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Someone (and my eyes are wandering over to iMav) should contact them and let them know.
I've notified them via email but have not heard back yet. I'm pretty sure that they are aware of the reports here at geekhack now. So, I guess we'll see what their reaction is. I would hope they are proactive about it...
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The fact that the Das people haven't reported the issues themselves and iMav contacting them about it would suggest they're being pretty reactive about the issue. It would seem to me that a company started by a keyboard enthusiast and, I would imagine, a pretty fast typist would have found such an issue before it went to market. I can see; however, where some things like this might sneak through QA, but, then again, this is an enthusiast 'board intended to be used by people that would be able to expose a flaw of this nature. I hope that when they do finally react, they will in a positive manner and issue recalls, refunds, etc.
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The fact that the Das people haven't reported the issues themselves and iMav contacting them about it would suggest they're being pretty reactive about the issue. It would seem to me that a company started by a keyboard enthusiast and, I would imagine, a pretty fast typist would have found such an issue before it went to market. I can see; however, where some things like this might sneak through QA, but, then again, this is an enthusiast 'board intended to be used by people that would be able to expose a flaw of this nature. I hope that when they do finally react, they will in a positive manner and issue recalls, refunds, etc.
Well I think also this is the kind of issue that only enthusiasts (and other obsessive-compulsives) would ever have noticed. Once its noticed tho, everyone will think poorly of the board, even non-enthusiasts.
i hope they respond positively too. They only have one product and basically its got a pretty bad design flaw. Any keyboard that produces its own typos goes against its reason for being.
And while they're at it making amends, they should drop the retail price on it too. Its still just a g80 with a usb port. Albeit nicely dressed up one.
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Its still just a g80 with a usb port.
I don't think it is? The distance between alpha block and cursor block is smaller than the G80's. Same with cursor block and numpad. So it must be a different pcb.
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I don't think it is? The distance between alpha block and cursor block is smaller than the G80's. Same with cursor block numpad. So it must be a different pcb.
Well apparently the g80-3000 is doing the same thing (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?p=10433#post10433), so even if they've changed pcb design it appears they're still using the same internals...
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Well, it can't be the same controller as the G80 doesn't have the same key rollover. Maybe there's a Cherry part somewhere in there beside the switches, I don't know.
I was just stating the difference to say that the price is actually pretty reasonable because the key pcb is non-standard. I don't think somebody gets rich producing Das Keyboard.
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Well apparently the g80-3000 is doing the same thing (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?p=10433#post10433), so even if they've changed pcb design it appears they're still using the same internals...
i'm curious as to whether the ps/2 versions of the g80-3000 exhibit this behavior.
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Well, it can't be the same controller as the G80 doesn't have the same key rollover. Maybe there's a Cherry part somewhere in there beside the switches, I don't know.
if i had to guess, the das iii is probably designed by cherry to metadot's specifications, implementing diodes to prevent key blocking and a bit of firmware creativity to get 12-key rollover.
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if i had to guess, the das iii is probably designed by cherry to metadot's specifications
That's what I thought until I read that the III is made in Taiwan. So it might be made by DSI, Costar or some other Taiwanese OEM mfgr.
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I tried my G80-based project board and it doesn't have the problem. It has a 3rd party controller but still uses the G80's rollover approach: no diodes, more than 16x8 rows/columns.
It must be related to the specific controller.
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LMAO oh thats too good.
Hello. My name is Indigo Montoya, you killed my father, prepare to die!
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I'm just curious, what does a 12 key roll-over provide over the 6 key roll-over in everyday use?
none that i can think of for normal people. i'd happily take mere 6-key rollover over 12 if it meant the keyboard would be accurate.
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was just googling around a bit and found this:
http://forums.macosxhints.com/showthread.php?t=74661
essentially the same problem, but different keyboard.
and another one:
http://www.amazon.com/review/product/B0001UEHHG/ref=pr_all_summary_cm_cr_acr_txt?%5Fencoding=UTF8&showViewpoints=1
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i'm going to take this hp keyboard apart later and make a note of the ic part numbers. there must be something in common with these keyboards for them to exhibit the same type of behavior.
no success. i took the hp keyboard apart and on the top side of the pcb was a few capacitors and resistors, and on the bottom side of the board was a mound of potting compound. no way for me to see the part number of the ic.
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For those not reading the ABS thread (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=925), it looks like the III is made by Costar:
http://www.costar.com.tw/products01/info.php?p_id=97&p_sid=32
Credit goes to zwmalone for finding this.
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For those not reading the ABS thread, it looks like the III is made by Costar:
http://www.costar.com.tw/products01/info.php?p_id=97&p_sid=32
Credit goes to zwmalone for finding this.
looks like they make the Filco too?! (http://www.costar.com.tw/products01/info.php?p_id=45&p_sid=32)
(and the Cherry g80-1800 compact? (http://www.costar.com.tw/products01/info.php?p_id=47&p_sid=32) Actually no, it says ALPS. But whatever it is, I want one of these!)
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looks like they make the Filco too?! (http://www.costar.com.tw/products01/info.php?p_id=45&p_sid=32)
The LED placement and labels look the same. And at least this Majestouch (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=163) is Made in Taiwan (pic by mr_sf_applet):
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2083/2070749290_4dc2b163d4.jpg)
The thread linked above contains some speculation about the oem mfgr of the Filco. Case closed, it seems. :)
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Did anyone get a response from the manufacture about this? I've only gone and ordered one ain't I.
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Did anyone get a response from the manufacture about this? I've only gone and ordered one ain't I.
Someone on the forums that owns one needs to submit a support request regarding this. (I got a response to the email I sent that simply said, "thanks for letting us know")
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From http://www.costar.com.tw/aboutus/
Develop success & mass production for Japan FILCO Company Magnetic Mechanical Keyboards.
Interesting! So that Filco tenkeyless I really want is made by the same company as my Das III.
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I am so glad to find this thread. You guys really take keyboards seriously around here, and it is inspiring.
I preordered two of the DAS-3 keyboards and received them in July. I returned them shortly afterwards. I was getting typos like mad -- and the damn things were definitely reordering the keys. The transposition I noticed most frequently was 'i' and 'n', as in "const nit foo = 3" or "prnitf("...")". We have a lot of keyboards in the office and we could not reproduce this problem with the DAS-2, and of course not with the Avant Stellars or even the Scorpius. I got second and third opinions, so I was pretty sure I was not crazy. I even swapped it with another programmer and used his DAS-2, but he couldn't stand the DAS-3 either.
I reported this problem to metadot, but they claimed they could not reproduce the problem. I do not think they took my claim very seriously. I encouraged them to consider that there might be a bug in the keyboard -- that it sampled keyswitches too infrequently, or otherwise couldn't properly sequence rapid keystrokes. They really were not interested in discussing this, and recommended that I return the keyboards for a refund. So I got my money back and moved on.
So, if you guys can get metadot to even admit that there is a problem with these keyboards, you are moving the ball forward. My experience was very disappointing.
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I've just been typing the really quickly on the alps keyboard and keep getting teh. I'm not hitting e before h though, I'm sure.
I know you guys are faster and more consistent than me at typing and I could be talking out my ass here, could this be an OS issue?
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We have a lot of keyboards in the office and we could not reproduce this problem with the DAS-2, and of course not with the Avant Stellars or even the Scorpius..
Sounds like you have an office full of folks who can appreciate quality keyboards. That's outstanding.
As I've mentioned before in this thread, metadot needs to step up and take responsibility for this issue and make things right. Unfortunately, too many sites blow sunshine up their rears (Engadget, Ars Technica, ExtremeTech, etc) and proclaim the new keyboard as the best thing since, well, the Das II...without doing a real critical analysis of the 'board.
The best thing is probably for current owners to complain and to reference this thread (which they are, now, aware of). I think their strategy is to simply refund the money for the "complainers" and to continue to make money off everyone else that doesn't know any better. IMHO, that's just wrong.
Hopefully potential buyers will do their research and find this thread...and then can, at least, make an informed decision.
BTW, welcome to geekhack!!!
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I'm not good at getting articles on Slashdot's front page, but does anyone want to take a shot at it? Slashdot has a large enough quantity of people that say "why not just paint a Model M black" that you might have a chance...
(And, most of those people have called Slashdot's previous Das Keyboard articles "slashvertisments...")
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I've just been typing the really quickly on the alps keyboard and keep getting teh. I'm not hitting e before h though, I'm sure.
I know you guys are faster and more consistent than me at typing and I could be talking out my ass here, could this be an OS issue?
That is teh suck...
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So if this bothers me you think they will refund my lovely money?
I wont be able to afford more than one premium keyboard.
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I would definitely push them to give you your money back. Really, when you look at it, all you have is a high-priced piece of plastic since it isn't any good for typing. I would get your money back, and find a proven winner (Model M, CVT Avant Prime, HHKB, etc.). If they decide to recall/fix the Das III, and the blue Cherries are your thing, then, maybe, give them you business again, but until then, I would look to get a refund (and push them to pay for shipping, especially, if you had to order from the US).
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Ordered from Germany.
Im going to give it a go and see.
Would it not be possible to flash the rom?
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Its here.
eth
eth
eth
eth
eth
eth
eth
eth
eth
eth
eth
eth
eth
eth
eth
eth
Bugger.
So what kind of WPM would I need to be hitting for this to affect me?
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Its here.
eth
Bugger.
Hee hee. What are you going to do?
Two alternatives: m10 of course, and DSI's modular mac spacesaver also comes in blues (its my favorite compact layout actually). (The mac layout they have now works fine on windows except for the volume/eject keys). They're coming out with a pc version (in black, yay) in a few months.
The DSI is a bit pricey at $150 or so, but the layout rocks. The m10 of course is a frugal $60.
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So what kind of WPM would I need to be hitting for this to affect me?
Whats your wpm on a normal board? And what is it on the das? It will probably be pretty close. For me it was more "the principle" that killed it. Everytime I'd see "teh" I would silently fume. It wasnt worth the additional gray hairs it would sprout on my head.
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Im a bit slow as Im just learning to touch type,
about 50 on a normal board looking and with the wrong fingers and about 30 doing it properly :) zzzzzzzz
I will get better of course but would be interested in how quick I need to be to get a typo.
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Im a bit slow as Im just learning to touch type,
about 50 on a normal board looking and with the wrong fingers and about 30 doing it properly :) zzzzzzzz
I will get better of course but would be interested in how quick I need to be to get a typo.
hmmm, thats a good question. If you're under 50wpm, would the typo issue even affect you? My guess would be "no". IN that case you could probably be okay with the das for quite a while before you speed up enough for the typos to start showing.
Keep in mind tho, the "wpm" rate may not be reflective of whether or not the typos affect you. Because they will affect you if any TWO keystrokes occur too fast. (ie, whatever your WPM rate, if you type TWO keys quickly, at any point in time, that has the chance of not registering properly).
So for myself, again, I would fume no matter what my WPM rate was. But I suppose if you dont think you'd even type TWO keys consecutively fast enough, and at any rate if you dont mind the occasional typo, then I suppose you could use it for a year or two without it affecting you much.
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For example, my mom would never run into this issue - she's total hunt and peck, and types with one or two fingers at a time, and 25 WPM is good for her.
(Of course, she uses a good ol' 1391401 anyway.)
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By the way, what do you think of the way the blue cherries feel?
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Just running my fingers over asdf from pinky to index is asdf every time.
switch to my right hand and it is fdsa up until quite a speed. Hmm Im not sure what to do.
love the blues! great sound too although Ella prefers the alps.
What I don't like about the alps is how wobbly the keys are.
These are nice and solid, Lighter than I expected too.
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Just running my fingers over asdf from pinky to index is asdf every time.
switch to my right hand and it is fdsa up until quite a speed. Hmm Im not sure what to do.
well why dont you use it for a week and see how you feel. The money-back window is usually two or four weeks, right?
The reason I think it may occasionally affect you regardless of overall typing speed is because even hunt and peck folks can input a few letters quickly. And everytime you do that you'll wonder if it registered correctly.
Or maybe you wont. Use it for a week and see. I'm not immune to its looks. I'm only human! I'd want to find a way to keep it too. Its the old functionality versus coolness issue.
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So what kind of WPM would I need to be hitting for this to affect me?
Most people have "bursts" of speed with commonly used, small words such as "the". So I would think that even slower typist would run into this issue.
I have to say that silence irritates me more than anything else. If metadot simply said, "yes, we are aware of the problem and are trying to figure out a resolution that will make the customer happy and not backrupt us at the same time.", I could live with that. But the, at least outward, appearance that they are ignoring the issue is quite irritating. (and I canceled my Das III order...so I don't even own one!)
Again, have any current owners complained and got any sort of response?
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Maybe that's why all teh 133t h4x0rz type so bad. It's not that they're trying to spell poorly or use "1337-speak," they all just use Das keyboards, and we are seeing the results.
Then again, maybe not.
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I have to say that silence irritates me more than anything else. If metadot simply said, "yes, we are aware of the problem and are trying to figure out a resolution that will make the customer happy and not backrupt us at the same time.", I could live with that. But the, at least outward, appearance that they are ignoring the issue is quite irritating.
Maybe - behind the scenes - they still fight with Costar about the issue.
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Most people have "bursts" of speed with commonly used, small words such as "the". So I would think that even slower typist would run into this issue.
I have to say that silence irritates me more than anything else. If metadot simply said, "yes, we are aware of the problem and are trying to figure out a resolution that will make the customer happy and not backrupt us at the same time.", I could live with that. But the, at least outward, appearance that they are ignoring the issue is quite irritating. (and I canceled my Das III order...so I don't even own one!)
Maybe they fear lawsuits. Toshiba got sued over a databus design flaw (which had affected *no one* in real life) but paid out a million anyway just for the flaw existing (even though the prosecutors couldnt point to any actual real world case where data was lost). With a flawed keyboard, I imagine the lawsuits could potentially be filed if they 'admitted' anything. There are people out there who'd do that just to get paid off of course (as in the toshiba case).
So maybe they're hoping people will grumble and go away and meanwhile the Das IV will fix it.
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I also doubt that many people would have done the analysis that you guys have done and just chalked it up to poor typing skills. I know I would have. I will probably end up reaching my 20 million keystrokes (MTBF) on the backspace key by next week.
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Just sent a support ticket.
Will let you know how I get on.
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Just sent a support ticket.
Will let you know how I get on.
This is good idea. Perhaps, we can draw up a form-letter of sorts, then we can all send them support requests using this letter (whether we own the Das or not). Hopefully, we can bombard them with enough requests that they will fix the problem.
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Just noticed my c key does not click and feels very different to the other keys. :(
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This is good idea. Perhaps, we can draw up a form-letter of sorts, then we can all send them support requests using this letter (whether we own the Das or not). Hopefully, we can bombard them with enough requests that they will fix the problem.
tell me where to bombard and I'll bombard...
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tell me where to bombard and I'll bombard...
That's a great question. Would you bombard the OEM, since that is where the problem truly lies and risk them flat-out ignoring you, or do you bombard Das and hope that they will show some pride for their product and exercise some leverage with the OEM to get it fixed (and risk Das flat-out ignoring you as well)?
Or... you could do both. ;)
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That's a great question. Would you bombard the OEM, since that is where the problem truly lies and risk them flat-out ignoring you, or do you bombard Das and hope that they will show some pride for their product and exercise some leverage with the OEM to get it fixed (and risk Das flat-out ignoring you as well)?
Or... you could do both. ;)
well Das is the manufacturer licensing it, so I imagine thats where the complaints should go. They can complain up the chain (or is it down the chain?) to costar I guess.
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Let's refrain from simply blasting them. I would suggest those that own a Das III to submit a support ticket with them if you are experiencing the issue (which, I'm guessing is EVERY owner). :)
We LIKE metadot here. We simply want them to step up and address this fairly significant issue. (so that we can enjoy the, otherwise, great product they are producing for us keyboard enthusiasts)
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Well the shop; getdigital.de have offered to replace the keyboard because of the faulty C.
I have no response from my support ticket as yet.
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Well the shop; getdigital.de have offered to replace the keyboard because of the faulty C.
I have no response from my support ticket as yet.
Do you think you're going to keep it then?
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I dont think I will no. Its such a shame.
M10 cant be found in the UK :( I like the blues a lot. And the legendles keys.
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Let's refrain from simply blasting them. I would suggest those that own a Das III to submit a support ticket with them if you are experiencing the issue (which, I'm guessing is EVERY owner). :)
We LIKE metadot here. We simply want them to step up and address this fairly significant issue. (so that we can enjoy the, otherwise, great product they are producing for us keyboard enthusiasts)
That's true. Since they are one of the few mfrs. still making mechanical switch keyboards, we wouldn't want them to start feeling any animosity to the community that they cater to and allows them to exist.
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I dont think I will no. Its such a shame.
M10 cant be found in the UK :( I like the blues a lot. And the legendles keys.
surely they would ship the m10 to you? Its on US ebay as well (http://cgi.ebay.com/Scorpius-M10-Mechanical-key-switch-Keyboard-USB-PS-2_W0QQitemZ180290642726QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCA_Mice_Trackballs?hash=item180290642726&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318), and from what I see there they do ship to UK, though I dont know how much. Theres a shipping calculator right on the page if you want to find out.
How about DSI's modular (http://www.notestation.com/kb-modmac-umodularmackeyboard.htm)? It comes with your choice of blues or browns (and in a few months will have a black pc version out). Incidentally they have an ebay store as well (http://cgi.ebay.com/DSI-White-Modular-Mac-Keyboard-Mechanical-Tactile-Keys_W0QQitemZ190254953962QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCA_Mice_Trackballs?_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116).
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M10 cant be found in the UK
I think youre just going to have to move to the US.
(Actually, the whole lot of us should move to south korea, since they seem to have the widest selection of exquisite mechanical keyboards :)
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Everyone, heres the login for metadot's helpdesk support where you can open a support ticket. Click on "request an account" and you can get a login and fill out the support form all in one shot. Go nuts. :)
http://daskeyboard.mojohelpdesk.com/
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Just noticed my c key does not click and feels very different to the other keys. :(
I had one key on my G80 that didn't click well. It does now. Maybe there's just a little dust in the switch. I'd open it and have a look. Unless you want to send your keyboard back anyway.
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Thank for submitting your request. A member of our staff will handle it as soon as possible
Sent in mine.
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I had one key on my G80 that didn't click well. It does now. Maybe there's just a little dust in the switch. I'd open it and have a look. Unless you want to send your keyboard back anyway.
Since the blues have a 2-piece stem design, it could be that the bottom piece that produces the click is sticking and not sliding down to create the click. After using it for awhile, it might come unstuck.
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My sister in law is going to New York for new years. Is there a shop that sells the M10?
Wait do they even make an M10 with a UK layout?
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My sister in law is going to New York for new years. Is there a shop that sells the M10?
You mean B&M? NAFAIK.
Wait do they even make an M10 with a UK layout?
Dunno. Did the das come with UK layout?
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Dunno. Did the das come with UK layout?
Yes (http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=11830&postcount=243).
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Yes (http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=11830&postcount=243).
Heres the Ione reseller page for the m10 (http://www.ione-usa.com/reseller/index.php?target=products&product_id=10), I dont see nuthin about UK layouts...
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Since the blues have a 2-piece stem design, it could be that the bottom piece that produces the click is sticking and not sliding down to create the click. After using it for awhile, it might come unstuck.
This was on my project board. I had more keys fail when I worked on it with lots of dust and the keycaps off. The switch isn't sealed at the top. Dust can fall in when the key is actuated. I opened the switches and blew the dust out. Closed them, pressed them a few times and they worked.
Still, it's a theory and your explanation could be it. Or dust causes the bottom piece to stick. :)
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Well, that's iOne's US site...
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Here's iOne's European site, FWIW: http://www.ione-europe.com/component/page,shop.product_details/flypage,shop.flypage/product_id,1642/category_id,10/manufacturer_id,0/option,com_virtuemart/Itemid,42/
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Well, that's iOne's US site...
I always forget theres a whole non-US world out there ;)
For that matter, non-NYC ;)
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Yeah, us country bumpkins down here in the South need our own special layout with a few less keys to match our teeth. Yeeeee-haw!
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So even on the Euro site they only have a US layout.
You know if I can fix the c I will keep it. Im in love even with its flaws.
Can I open the switch from the top?
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Well, I've been looking around, and that looks like it's just the pic, here's a German layout: http://lauwe.de/index.cgi?session=90aea7ae49944957927f505e6ec47334708b71286854dde3bbacb4a207289c401&LANG=DE&id=1592&menu=1&WG_ID=1499_1500&do=details
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Can I open the switch from the top?
not on the das, AFAIK.
Im in love even with its flaws.
now thats love
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Well, I've been looking around, and that looks like it's just the pic, here's a German layout: http://lauwe.de/index.cgi?session=90aea7ae49944957927f505e6ec47334708b71286854dde3bbacb4a207289c401&LANG=DE&id=1592&menu=1&WG_ID=1499_1500&do=details
they must do then as thats the same as UK!
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I'd contact iOne Europe, and see what they can do for you, to get a Scorpius M10 in UK layout...
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I think I am a decently fast typer, but there is no way I can write code like "printf("");" at those speeds to seen here. My lord, when do you think about what you are coding.
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they must do then as thats the same as UK!
lam you can buy blank MX keycaps (to put on the m10 or anything else):
http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=12168&postcount=85
http://mykeyboard.co.uk/keycaps/
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Thats interesting. Im going to have a look at getting a UK M10 :)
not great opinions on amazon.
http://www.amazon.com/Ione-Scorpius-Mechanical-Keyswitch-Keyboard/dp/B000UC1W3C
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Are you fast typers really noticing a significant amount of typos? Even of I concentrate on typing "the" as fast as I can while still being sure I typed the letters in order, it never comes out wrong. The problem only seems to occur if I hit all of the keys at the same time.
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Would anyone like speculate on what sorts of USB HID implementation errors might have caused this problem?
I know almost nothing about USB HID programming. I just skimmed the HID 1.1 Device Class Definition.
I imagine that the keyboard is sampling the keyswitches at 60Hz, and sticking all the depressed keys into one HID data report packet. The keyboard does not buffer keypresses into separate reports (pg. 62 "Keyboards may buffer events that would have otherwise resulted in multiple event in a single report.")
So, instead of buffering keypresses into separate reports so that their sequence is preserved, the keypresses all go into one report. The USB host sees the report packet and sees that 'i' and 'n' were simultaneously depressed. And, the USB host decides to produce "ni" (pg 62: "The order of keycodes in array fields has no significance. Order determination is done by the host software comparing the contents of the previous report to the current report.")
So I have a couple questions for the USB experts in the crowd. Can you tell a keyboard device to increase its idle rate, thereby increasing the rate of data packets? It looks like it is theoretically possible to set the idle interval to 4ms (from the HID spec). Wouldn't you be surprised, though, if you could just tell a USB keyboard to increase its polling rate? I would be. I figure that USB manufacturers set an idle rate that is convenient for them and the USB host can not simply demand more packets/second.
Anyway, if anyone happens to know if idle rate is a way of tweaking the performance of a keyboard, that would be pretty useful! A brief google search turned up nothing of particular interest except for some linux kernel guy, trying to set the idle interval to zero, and failing. But ymmv.
Oh, and here is the HID spec that I downloaded, if anyone is interested.
http://www.usb.org/developers/devclass_docs/HID1_11.pdf (http://www.usb.org/developers/devclass_docs/HID1_11.pdf)
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I know that USB ports can have polling rates upped to 500hz.
Hold on.
http://www.overclock.net/computer-peripherals/173255-cs-s-mouse-optimization-guide.html
halfway down the first post, overclock your usb ports.
Would this work?
On a side note I dismantled a das3 yesterday (wont go into why)
The plastic is very cheap, 2 of the nubs that hold the pcb up were snapped.
The shiny top panel is actually black transparent plastic.
The PCB had many badly soldered points and 3 repaired traces!
This keyboard is shockingly badly made for the price.
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Right, but that's the rate at which the keyboard is polled, not the rate at which the keyboard is sampling.
Also, raising the USB polling rate increases CPU usage.
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I imagine that the keyboard is sampling the keyswitches at 60Hz, and sticking all the depressed keys into one HID data report packet. The keyboard does not buffer keypresses into separate reports (pg. 62 "Keyboards may buffer events that would have otherwise resulted in multiple event in a single report.")
So, instead of buffering keypresses into separate reports so that their sequence is preserved, the keypresses all go into one report. The USB host sees the report packet and sees that 'i' and 'n' were simultaneously depressed. And, the USB host decides to produce "ni" (pg 62: "The order of keycodes in array fields has no significance. Order determination is done by the host software comparing the contents of the previous report to the current report.")
yes, if the host receives one report in which 'i' and 'n' are shown as depressed, and then in some subsequent report, 'i' and 'n' are shown as released, then the sequence of the keys is indeterminate since the host interprets that sequence of reports as simultaneous key depressions. it has no choice but to assign some arbitrary sequence, for argument's sake 'ni'.
the problem is, what if you had in reality pressed 'i' before 'n', but so quickly that the keyboard misinterpreted this sequence as simultaneous because it wasn't scanning the keys quickly enough? it then sends the above sequence of reports (with incorrect data) and you get 'ni' instead of 'in'. in this case, the problem lies with the keyboard, not the host.
from my observations, i'd say 60hz is a bit on the high side. i don't think i'm hitting keys within 16.67ms of each other, but then again i've no way of timing it either. perhaps 30hz is more realistic.
i've tried setting the usb polling rate to 1000hz, it doesn't make a difference.
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As it happens I was able to time my bad das-3 keystrokes fairly well, using a microphone and a sound-editor to measure the click-gaps. It is very easy to hit two keys within 16ms of eachother, especially for commonly typed words like printf. The DAS-3 seemed to be able to sequence them properly when I hit them at a > 16ms interval, but not if the gap was < 16ms.
I arranged my index and middle fingers over the 'n' and 'i' keys like a "little hopping man" and adjusted the angle of my hand so that the keys were getting pressed more/less simultaneously. I started with the 'i' first, and kept adjusting my hand until the keyboard produced 'ni'. At that point I stopped recording and measured the gap in the sound-editor (I used GoldWave, fwiw).
This was a simple way to determine the practical sampling rate of this keyboard, but you should be skeptical. I believe that my mind can detect which keys I've hit first! But if you think I am crazy or cannot perceive my own fingertips accurately, we may need to develop a key-depressing apparatus that we all can trust. DAS claimed I was actually hitting 'n' first in the 'ni' cases. I claim I was hitting 'i' first. In any case I chose to return the keyboards for a refund rather than make a key-pressing machine whose key-order perception would be indisputable; as I say, DAS did not really take this problem very seriously.
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the problem is, what if you had in reality pressed 'i' before 'n', but so quickly that the keyboard misinterpreted this sequence as simultaneous because it wasn't scanning the keys quickly enough? it then sends the above sequence of reports (with incorrect data) and you get 'ni' instead of 'in'. in this case, the problem lies with the keyboard, not the host.
...
i've tried setting the usb polling rate to 1000hz, it doesn't make a difference.
Absolutely, the keyboard can only scan so quickly! We can't just expect a keyboard to scan at 1KHz because we demand it. So yes, it will just send the same report N times and then finally get around to sampling again.
This is all very interesting. Right now, I am at home using the super-lame Dell keyboard that came with this computer. It does not reorder keys on me. It has some n-key rollover issues, but it keeps the keys in the right order! I do a little programming on it, which is not much fun, but I am not going crazy like with the DAS-3.
And surely this crappy keyboard is the cheapest-ass keyboard ever. It is free. So how can they get this *right* when DAS does it wrong?
Is it that DAS needed fancy firmware to support N-key rollover, but it accidentally broke key-sequencing?
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This was a simple way to determine the practical sampling rate of this keyboard, but you should be skeptical. I believe that my mind can detect which keys I've hit first! But if you think I am crazy or cannot perceive my own fingertips accurately, we may need to develop a key-depressing apparatus that we all can trust. DAS claimed I was actually hitting 'n' first in the 'ni' cases. I claim I was hitting 'i' first. In any case I chose to return the keyboards for a refund rather than make a key-pressing machine whose key-order perception would be indisputable; as I say, DAS did not really take this problem very seriously.
nice work. i hadn't thought about recording the keystrokes and using audio software to determine the timing. i still have my das, i may have a go at it to confirm your results.
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Is it that DAS needed fancy firmware to support N-key rollover, but it accidentally broke key-sequencing?
That's my guess. The scan delay was probably intentional, so that they could simulate N-key rollover without quite the necessary hardware (are there diodes installed?) or so that they could simulate it over USB without drivers. (And, they didn't even simulate n-key rollover, they simulated 12-key rollover.)
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This is all very interesting. Right now, I am at home using the super-lame Dell keyboard that came with this computer. It does not reorder keys on me. It has some n-key rollover issues, but it keeps the keys in the right order! I do a little programming on it, which is not much fun, but I am not going crazy like with the DAS-3.
And surely this crappy keyboard is the cheapest-ass keyboard ever. It is free. So how can they get this *right* when DAS does it wrong?
Is it that DAS needed fancy firmware to support N-key rollover, but it accidentally broke key-sequencing?
i've also tested three el cheapo usb keyboards - 2 (different model) dells and an hp. one dell and the hp exhibited the same problem as the das, but the other dell did not. none of them have n-key rollover support, so while i don't believe that the das's n-key rollover is the cause of the problem, it does make it easier to test for it.
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Does anyone have an idea of what WPM would trigger these typos? I'm thinking of getting a DAS for when I'm in the mood for something clicky.
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Does anyone have an idea of what WPM would trigger these typos? I'm thinking of getting a DAS for when I'm in the mood for something clicky.
Someone else was asking that before... I think the consensus was that its not really a WPM issue, because even slow typers will occasionally type a short sequence of letters quickly (and run the risk of the problem potentially showing up) even if the overall WPM is pretty slow.
That said, I think the people who first noticed the problem were people who typed around 100 wpm to begin with.
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Just get a Scorpius M10 if you want Cherry blues, avoid that issue altogether. They're sold in Europe, too, after all.
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I want blank keycaps as well. I'm not sure if the switches in the b18 are clicky otherwise I'd probably get one of those.
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I just got my Das Keyboard today, and I wanted to test this out. If I press two buttons so close to each other that I hear _ONE_ click ... then yes, what's said in this forum is true. I cannot duplicate the key error, whenever I hear two clicks - no matter how close together they are, and how hard I try.
This is absolutely a non issue for _ME_. My typing is ~90wpm. I hope this is helpful for others. I also hope that for those people, which this is an issue, find a resolution.
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I just got my Das Keyboard today, and I wanted to test this out. If I press two buttons so close to each other that I hear _ONE_ click ... then yes, what's said in this forum is true. I cannot duplicate the key error, whenever I hear two clicks - no matter how close together they are, and how hard I try.
This is absolutely a non issue for _ME_. My typing is ~90wpm. I hope this is helpful for others. I also hope that for those people, which this is an issue, find a resolution.
Thats probably accurate, and I too type about 90wpm. But for me there were two issues that kept me from being able to live with the problem. One, quite honestly, was the principle of the thing (as others mentioned, knowing there is an issue makes me indignant enough to move on). The other is that, even at 90wpm, I'm certain that I will sometimes type a short sequence of keys that close together. And if it results in a typo, it will be impossible to tell if its the board or me. And once again I'd be indignant. I suppose its my own reaction (if I didnt care about the occasional typo then sure, I could live with it too, as a practical matter). I guess this is something everyone has to decide for themselves. Of course if DAS fixed the problem it'd be a non issue for everyone...
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I just got my Das Keyboard today, and I wanted to test this out. If I press two buttons so close to each other that I hear _ONE_ click ... then yes, what's said in this forum is true. I cannot duplicate the key error, whenever I hear two clicks - no matter how close together they are, and how hard I try.
This is absolutely a non issue for _ME_. My typing is ~90wpm. I hope this is helpful for others. I also hope that for those people, which this is an issue, find a resolution.
do you think you could do a little test.
press asdf all at the same time then move your hand and press enter.
Now do it again 10 - 20 times.
Post the results.
It will let us see if the issue has indeed been fixed.
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do you think you could do a little test.
press asdf all at the same time then move your hand and press enter.
Now do it again 10 - 20 times.
Post the results.
It will let us see if the issue has indeed been fixed.
I dont think he was suggesting it was fixed, was he? I thought he was saying that it looked like something he could "live with"...
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Just re read. My mistake. I thought his was not showing any problems.
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Here's what happens when I press asdf at the same time (x20) in Emacs
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
@wellington1869 - It _is_ a principle thing.
Far From Left Field: I deleted all my hotmail contacts (moved them over using an Emacs macro) and abandoned my account after they rolled the new UI interface which had compatibility issues with Ubuntu. Not because I didn't know how to fake my agent string and fix the issue in the 15 seconds it takes to type about:config and replace a string, but because of principle.
If you are putting up with the flaw, you are selling yourself out.
If there is open hardware / firmware, you have the power to fix it yourself. In a case like this, that power is already stripped from you. So the only power you have left, is not to put up with the flaw.
As, I mentioned before, I verified the problem; I just don't run into it during typing.
I'm rooting that the company addresses and fixes this.
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that was very philosophical.
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Yeah nice response mate.
Thanks for doing the test.
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****. I'm considering getting a second Das Keyboard. I love this thing.
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I just got my Das Keyboard today, and I wanted to test this out. If I press two buttons so close to each other that I hear _ONE_ click ... then yes, what's said in this forum is true. I cannot duplicate the key error, whenever I hear two clicks - no matter how close together they are, and how hard I try.
This is absolutely a non issue for _ME_. My typing is ~90wpm. I hope this is helpful for others. I also hope that for those people, which this is an issue, find a resolution.
Exactly.
I don't see how this could be an issue for anyone. Even if I concentrate on typing two letters in an order that would be switched, I cannot replicate the error. I only see it happen when I pressed them at the same time and can only hear one click. If you're typing that fast, it's very likely that you made the typo (by hitting them at the same time).
If your typing two letters that fast, there's no way to tell whether you're hitting them in order, in which case it may as well be a typo so you can learn from it and improve your technique/control. Then again who knows, maybe some of you have insane finger senses. I'm probably going to get some defensive responses of people who think they can tell.
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Exactly.
I don't see how this could be an issue for anyone. Even if I concentrate on typing two letters in an order that would be switched, I cannot replicate the error. I only see it happen when I pressed them at the same time and can only hear one click. If you're typing that fast, it's very likely that you made the typo (by hitting them at the same time).
If your typing two letters that fast, there's no way to tell whether you're hitting them in order, in which case it may as well be a typo so you can learn from it and improve your technique/control. Then again who knows, maybe some of you have insane finger senses. I'm probably going to get some defensive responses of people who think they can tell.
"who knows" is exactly the problem for me. I'd rather have a keyboard where, in fact, I know :)
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You can see its an issue from posts on the forum.
I have seen members who's typing is normally perfect write teh twice in one post whilst using the Das, and not once with another board.
I think its in this thread actually.
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Exactly.
I don't see how this could be an issue for anyone. Even if I concentrate on typing two letters in an order that would be switched, I cannot replicate the error. I only see it happen when I pressed them at the same time and can only hear one click. If you're typing that fast, it's very likely that you made the typo (by hitting them at the same time).
not when these particular typo combinations are occurring with a significantly greater frequency on this particular keyboard versus other keyboards for those of us experiencing this problem.
If your typing two letters that fast, there's no way to tell whether you're hitting them in order, in which case it may as well be a typo so you can learn from it and improve your technique/control. Then again who knows, maybe some of you have insane finger senses. I'm probably going to get some defensive responses of people who think they can tell.
yes, you will get defensive responses, because you've presumed that because you can't type very quick key sequences and know that they're in the right order, no one else can either.
due to its nature, this issue isn't going to affect everyone.
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Hmm, not related to the key transposition issue: I expected this keyboard to be "Made in Germany", but reading the fine print reveals: "Designed in Austin, Texas", "Made in Taiwan". That's deceptive.
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Not that deceptive, they never said that it was made in Germany, they said the keyswitches were German-engineered. (Although the pseudo-German name...)
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Weren't the Das IIs made in Germany (since they were pretty much off-the-shelf Cherry 'boards)? Or were they made in the Czech Rep. like some of Cherry's other stuff?
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I'm probably going to get some defensive responses of people who think they can tell.
Are you trying to be insulting?
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So, are the Filco N-key rollover keyboards affected by this bug as well? Given that both the Das III and the Filco boards are made by Costar...
I'm probably going to break down and order one of the Filcos sometime this month, but I think I'll steer clear of the N-key rollover ones just incase.
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I believe the Filco N-key rollover boards are PS/2, and don't have to resort to tricks like the Das uses to get more than 6-key rollover on USB.
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I believe the Filco N-key rollover boards are PS/2, and don't have to resort to tricks like the Das uses to get more than 6-key rollover on USB.
This is good.
I'll probably order one in a bit. I want to see how the blue Cherrys[1] are on the M10 before deciding on which tenkeyless to order.
[1] grammar disclaimer -- i operate under the assumption that pluralization of proper nouns follow different rules (http://mapleleafs.nhl.com/).
Edit: Fixed.... :-P
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Proper nouns are also normally capitalized, though. ;)
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[1] grammar disclaimer -- i operate under the assumption that pluralization of proper nouns follow different rules (http://mapleleafs.nhl.com/).
I wondered about this myself. In the past I have used Cherrys but it doesn't look right. If I were writing an article I would probably avoid using Cherrys altogether. I prefer to use "blue stem Cherry MX switches" for sake of clarity, but lately I've been using "blue Cherries" for convenience.
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I wondered about this myself. In the past I have used Cherrys but it doesn't look right. If I were writing an article I would probably avoid using Cherrys altogether. I prefer to use "blue stem Cherry MX switches" for sake of clarity, but lately I've been using "blue Cherries" for convenience.
Again, being a Leafs fan, it doesn't bother me to see a brand name pluralized oddly. It's a brand, not a normal word.
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Cherry is a surname (Walter L. Cherry).
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Cherry is a surname (Walter L. Cherry).
Guess that settles it (http://web.mit.edu/comdor/editguide/style-matters/names.html) then.
Of course, we aren't referring to multiple family members here, but I can't imagine why the rules for brands would be different than the rules for names.
I know that the brand police at my company would throw a fit if the company name got changed in pluralization, so I figure I'll respect the brand managers at Cherry and not mangle the name in pluralization.
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Hey. Finally got my dasIII sorted so enjoying the blues very much.
Does anyone else find the enter key to be a bit stiff? Its not the switch as its the same blue as the rest. I have looked at the metal bar etc and all looks fine.
It just seems stiff and mushy.
It is a UK one so it could be different if you have the US type.
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Does anyone have a Deck Legend that they can test for this problem?
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Hey. Finally got my dasIII sorted so enjoying the blues very much.
Does anyone else find the enter key to be a bit stiff? Its not the switch as its the same blue as the rest. I have looked at the metal bar etc and all looks fine.
It just seems stiff and mushy.
It is a UK one so it could be different if you have the US type.
When you say, "Hey. Finally got my dasIII sorted so enjoying the blues very much.", does that mean you found a resolution to the problem?
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No sorry it does not.
I had another issue.
There is no fix for the rollover issue.
They are aware of the problem though and said there will be a fix at some point.
Not sure how they plan on doing it though.
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Does anyone have a Deck Legend that they can test for this problem?
Hi, this is Adam from Deck Keyboards. Per sargon a post has been started in our forums concerning this issue. I thought it may benefit others if it was posted here as well.
For anyone else wondering if the Deck Legend has this problem the short answer is this: no problems have been noticed thus far from our testing and customer experiences but it may be possible if you type faster than 1 character every 4 or 8 milliseconds.
Here is the thread in our forums:
http://deckkeyboards.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=548
From that thread as provided by our lead engineer with respect to USB:
USB HID keyboards are strange; there’s no first-in-first-out queing of the data. Instead, there is a “key-down array” Note the “Report order is arbitrary and does not reflect order of events” in the “Comments” column on page 73 of the USB HID specification:
http://www.usb.org/developers/devclass_docs/HID1_11.pdf
B down 01000000 04 05 1B Report order is
arbitrary and does
not reflect order of
events
USB polls our keyboard about once every 8 ms. So there is about an 8 ms window in which the ordering will be arbitrary...Then the next limiting factor is the scanning frequency of the keyboard [and we are not planning to change this for our current products].
With respect to PS2:
No, PS/2 has a first-in-first-out buffer (assuming the keys are pressed on a different scan, but faster than the USB polling rate).
The next limiting factor for PS/2 is the scan rate. If you truly press two keys simultaneously (stop time, press two keys, restart time), whatever key the scanning routine found pressed first would be reported first.
The same thing could happen during a single key scan period – even if the keys are pressed in a specific sequence, they could be reported out-of-sequence.
So what I think you’re getting at is would he be happier with a PS/2 keyboard? I typically scan at a 4ms period and have about 25ms debounce time (the debounce time is irrelavent of the reported key sequence). So they’d only be getting about 4 ms of extra resolution (8 ms usb polling period – 4ms scan rate).
As you can see our products work just about as fast as possible. We could scan more but it really doesn't provide a huge noticeable difference. I would bet that other companies either don't scan as much or have something else going on with their firmware...or maybe you all just type ridiculously fast and our products aren't able to cope with the mad typing skills!
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This would seem to explain the odd NKRO results with USB (only) 'boards such as the ABS and Das. The Das also suffers from a slow scan rate.
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BTW, Deckguy_Adam, thanks for coming to GeekHack. :) I hope we get to hear more from you and other companies as well. Your consideration is greatly appreciated. Thanks, again.
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thanks adam. it pretty much confirms what we've suspected about the das iii (and other usb keyboards that suffer from this problem) - the keyboard isn't scanning the keys fast enough.
funny how metadot couldn't give us this kind of response.
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Would using a PS/2 to USB converter on a PS/2 version negate its advantages?
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To a certain extent, yes, but I doubt you would see the same issues that some of these native USB 'boards have (unless you have a crappy PS2 -> USB adapter). I would imagine that your PS2 NKRO would just be reduced to 6 keys.
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i'm still not really convinced it isn't scanning the keys fast enough. i make exactly the same kinds of typos on my M10 as on my das iii. i wonder though whether people were making typos because of the relatively low resistance of the blue cherry switches. i'd be interested to hear from anyone who notices more transposition errors on a das iii compared to other blue cherry boards.
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I have a Cherry G80, M10, and DAS III, and definitely had more typos on the DAS.
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i'm still not really convinced it isn't scanning the keys fast enough. i make exactly the same kinds of typos on my M10 as on my das iii. i wonder though whether people were making typos because of the relatively low resistance of the blue cherry switches. i'd be interested to hear from anyone who notices more transposition errors on a das iii compared to other blue cherry boards.
If I were the one typing, I would say you are correct; however, there are several tests earlier in the thread that would suggest otherwise.
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i'm still not really convinced it isn't scanning the keys fast enough.
the rollover test results are evidence. the fact that the das iii outputs the same patterns very consistently when you press several keys simultaneously (which, in reality, are rarely truly simultaneous), points to an issue with the rate at which keys are scanned. keyboards that don't suffer from this problem output more random results.
i make exactly the same kinds of typos on my M10 as on my das iii.
that just means that in your case, something else is causing you to make more typos. it may very well be the lightness of the switches that you need to get used to. but once you do, you may find yourself making typos on the das that you don't with the m10, in which case it would probably be due to the slower key scanning rate.
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I got rid of the das because of the typos which made the board worth about as much as a pile of sticks to me, but this m10 i'm on has no problem, although it doesn't have a 6-key rollover like they advertise :P, but that doesn't really bother me i'm just happy it's not giving me any problems like the das.
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typed on my m10 by pressing the four keys simultaneously:
fdsa
fdsa
fdsa
fdsa
fdsa
fdsa
fdsa
fdsa
fdsa
fdsa
fdsa
fdsa
fdsa
fdsa
fdsa
fdsa
it fails the same test as the das iii...
fdsa
fdsa
fdsa
fdsa
fdsa
fdsa
fdsa
does anyone know what the sampling clocks of these keyboards actually are?
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sadf
dfsa
sdaf
sdfa
sdaf
sdaf
sdaf
sdfa
sdfa
sdfa
sdfa
sdfa
sdfa
sadf
sdfa
sadf
sdaf
fsda
fsad
sadf
On my Scorpius M10, connected to a ThinkPad X61 Tablet (via USB,) running Windows XP Tablet SP3.
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cmr... here's my M10, but I'm connecting with PS/2 if that makes any difference:
fdsa
sdaf
dfsa
sdfa
dfsa
dfsa
dfsa
dfsa
fdsa
fdsa
dfsa
dfsa
dfsa
dfsa
fdsa
fdsa
dfsa
fdsa
dfsa
fdsa
dfsa
fdsa
fdsa
fdsa
fdsa
dfsa
fdsa
dfsa
-
dafs
afds
adsf
adsf
dasf
adsf
dafs
adfs
fdas
dfas
dfas
dafs
adfs
adfs
adsf
fdas
dfsa
dafs
dafs
dafs
afds
dafs
On my scorpius m10, hooked up as regular usb on the ole' pc
on the das keyboard i had it definitely didn't behave correctly, the M10 does (although it doesn't have 6-key rollover like advertised)
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Where was it advertised?
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Where was it advertised?
scorpius has a youtube video where it sounds like they claim n key rollover. I dont know that they use the phrase but he 'demonstrates' it by whacking at lots of keys at the same time and triumphantly looks at the camera.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXnGH6IMOfI
Hmm, they do claim nkro. (http://geekhack.org/images/icons/icon13.gif)
You know what I find funny? The guy, who supposedly works for Qtronix (read: Ione) has a crappy Dell rubber dome board on his desk. :p
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXnGH6IMOfI\
You know what I find funny? The guy, who supposedly works for Qtronix (read: Ione) has a crappy Dell rubber dome board on his desk. :p
Strong.
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Does anyone have a Deck Legend that they can test for this problem?
Adam was already here, and seems to have laid concerns to rest, but here goes. Deck Legend PS2
afsd
safd
dsaf
sadf
dfsa
fdsa
adfs
dsfa
sfda
afds
fdsa
fdsa
sfda
sdfa
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Yesterday, May 13th
Daniel, the co-founder of Das Keyboard did the honorable thing and admitted to the key transposition error the Das Keyboards have. http://www.daskeyboard.com/blog/?p=82
This was brought to our attention last November. (Most likely by you guys) Our testing has shown that this is in fact a ”limitation” of the first version of our keyboards. The detection time of the current version was designed as 100ms which means that if you are a very, very fast typist, approximately 120 words per minute then, you might encounter this limitation. It’s something we are redesigning for the next version of Das Keyboard.
Too bad this didn't come a couple days sooner because I just purchased Das Ultimate on May 10th. I purchased it entirely aware of the defect, but I was hoping that it wouldn't show up in regular typing. I type at 120 WPM though and I experienced it nearly every time on certain words. Ironically, in my refund request I linked to the very article they referenced in their blog post. I'm glad Das at least admitted to it officially though; because of that I'll consider purchasing their "next version"
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Yesterday, May 13th
Daniel, the co-founder of Das Keyboard did the honorable thing and admitted to the key transposition error the Das Keyboards have. http://www.daskeyboard.com/blog/?p=82
Too bad this didn't come a couple days sooner because I just purchased Das Ultimate on May 10th. I purchased it entirely aware of the defect, but I was hoping that it wouldn't show up in regular typing. I type at 120 WPM though and I experienced it nearly every time on certain words. Ironically, in my refund request I linked to the very article they referenced in their blog post. I'm glad Das at least admitted to it officially though; because of that I'll consider purchasing their "next version"
interesting. the thing is tho, 120 wpm isnt uncommon. Its fairly common among professionals who work at keyboards all day. I could hit it in bursts i'm sure. (my average is about 90-100 wpm). All you'd have to do is hit that speed in a burst and you get nailed by the "limitation".
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Scratch that last post. I have that problem all the time. That is, as soon as Majestouch ships those Blue Cherry Filcos.
I lold
Yeah wellington, I couldn't believe how often the error occured. I honestly believed I wouldn't experience it at all unless purposefully looking for it. Because I mean c'mon it's a Das-- its sole purpose is to be a high quality keyboard for enthusiasts right? But at 120 wpm it happened every. single. time. Not to mention the input lag during my bursts above 120. I would literally see the letters come out all at once as an entire transposed word instead of letter by letter. It was really odd.
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Because I mean c'mon it's a Das-- its sole purpose is to be a high quality keyboard for enthusiasts right?. .
ya, I agree. Just on principle I wouldnt get one. Its supposed to be for professionals and it fails there. Even if it is a gorgeous looking board.
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ya, I agree. Just on principle I wouldnt get one. Its supposed to be for professionals and it fails there. Even if it is a gorgeous looking board.
Agreed. It's really a shame. But if they do fix it in their next revision like they claim they will, I'll probably pick one of those up.
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Anyone here happen to know if the Das Keyboard folks will pay the shipping on having the defective boards shipped back to them for a refund? I'm guessing they won't but if anyone else got the shipping paid, I'll try the same.
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On second thought... I'm only about an hour and twenty minutes from Austin, so I could just deliver it to them the next time I'm there. I may or may not buy the next version of their board, depending on the price, what it looks like, and what switches it comes with.
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Shipping is cheap (if you're in the US) so it's not a big deal.
When I RMA'd before they wouldn't pay for shipping.
I wouldn't push it anyway. It is actually a pretty classy move for something that most people won't really see.
I'm impressed with Hamps having visible input lags. I may have had them with the first Apple II I touched but that was long ago....
maybe i'm one of these spoiled americans, but personally I think classy would have been to pay shipping both ways - it was their defect after all :)
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Wow. I am delighted that they are finally admitting this problem happens. I almost can't believe that blog post is real. It might be a very intricate troll for the geekhack forums.
I wonder what changed their mind? I RMA'd two DAS-3s back to metadot, back in July 2008 with the key-transposition. And basically I was told that I couldn't correctly perceive the order in which my fingers hit keys. This disparaging opinion about the sanity of Das-3 complainers came up a few times at geekhack as well.
I had thought that perhaps the only way to defend our sanity was to build a keyboard-testing apparatus -- I won't describe it for you, but it was going to be a real contraption -- and this apparatus would demonstrate (or fail to demonstrate) the key-transposition bug. But I knew that if I made this keyboard-testing machine, then I would be demonstrating that I was *not* sane. I would be proving to the world that I am a freakish keyboard eccentric, railing against hardware bugs that only I can see, muttering and soldering in my basement. Even if the bugs are real, I am still crazy.
And so, I don't really feel like I've won. I have this DAS-2, which is really unsexy. But a few weeks ago I got one of Majestouch's NKRO Brown-Cherry 104s, and that thing has changed my life. I am getting used to the Browns, the other guys in the office think the lack of resistance is crazy unusable -- they're Blue guys.
But on those Brown cherries I am having a great day, every day. That keyboard is a dream. I am making typos like crazy, but every single one of them is mine.
Suck it, DAS.
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maybe i'm one of these spoiled americans, but personally I think classy would have been to pay shipping both ways - it was their defect after all :)
I generally feel the same when it's a defective product, or not as described.
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I am making typos like crazy, but every single one of them is mine.
Suck it, DAS.
lol, thats how I feel. I'm proud of my typos - so long as they're mine :)
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I think all DAS keyboards are ripoffs
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I hate that when happens!
Since neither me nor my wife are fast typists (< 90 WPM) I didn't notice this issue. Having three Das III is quite costly to send them back. :smile:
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I think all DAS keyboards are ripoffs
The Das II was a good keyboard. That one was Cherry-made (basically, a G80-3000). Switching to Costar caused the problems. For as many good keyboards Costar makes, they also make some that aren't so great. Unfortunately, the Das III was one of them. The overall quality is good, but I think they have some issues in their software engineering department.
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ripster your board collection reads like the wishlist of most geekhackers ;) I just noticed. The only thing missing there is a white alps.
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I don't know the Costar/Metadot specifics but most of the time the OEM manufacturer is at the tail end of the design process. In other words, I have a hard time blaming Costar for NKey Rollover issues. They are given a design. They build it. Metadot should be checking to see if the design/manufacturing handoff is seamless.
I even blame Metadot for case/plastic issues. Their Industrial Engineer needs to live at that plant until they get 100% QC. If Metadot even HAS a IE.
Metadot's roots are in software design. Beware of software companies building hardware (insert Microsoft example here....).
LOL - I'm getting myself so worked up I may just send the Das back for the principle of the thing.
Some of those things are Metadot's fault. Scan rate problems, IMO, are Costar's. It's a keyboard. They make many different keyboards. They make some really good keyboards. For them to make an error like this, though, is careless. Now, other than people like us, something like a scan rate issue will slip through QA. When most people buy a keyboard, they assume that if they press keys, those keystrokes are going to appear on the screen. They might test each key to make sure it works, but they might not test to make sure it outputs correctly at 150 WPM. They probably don't even have anyone on their staff that can type that fast. The problem, now, is Metadot is left holding the bag since they approved the design and went to market with it. They were unaware of the problem until some ridiculously fast typers here found it and reported it. I don't know what kind of contract they have with Costar, but it sure seems like they got into something where Costar doesn't have to fix defects found after QA. That is both their problems.
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Like I said earlier I don't know the Costar/Metadot specifics. All I am saying is Costar may just be a manufacturing outfit. They are given the shell design, the electronics list of parts, the PCB layout and told to go build it.
If Costar HAD engineering design expertise I don't know why they would screw up the Das Nkey and get the Filco's right. I take that back, I know lots of engineers.....
We need a spy in Costar to get the true story. It's probably somewhere in between.
:spy:
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Mmm... Hawaii.
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Not to mention the input lag during my bursts above 120. I would literally see the letters come out all at once as an entire transposed word instead of letter by letter. It was really odd.
i've seen this happen on other cheap usb keyboards as well, although it's not as immediately noticeable because i find it hard to get a fast typing rhythm going on a cheap keyboard. i have never seen this same input lag on any ps/2 keyboard i've used.
i'm pleasantly surprised that they've acknowledged this as a problem and are offering a full refund.
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i'm pleasantly surprised that they've acknowledged this as a problem and are offering a full refund.
I'm pleasantly surprised also, but they are hardly to be applauded. Was it barneyb.com's two-pencils-taped-together trick, posted the day before, that finally got DAS to admit the failure? Or was it a wild impulse? Who can say. But they were hyping this premium keyboard for months, and they knew it couldn't even scan in-order. Any claims they make about the Das-4 will be false until proven true.
There are quality keyboard manufacturers who we can trust. What is Das bringing to the table that we can't get elsewhere?
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There are quality keyboard manufacturers who we can trust. What is Das bringing to the table that we can't get elsewhere?
An easy-to-find source of Cherry blues. Too bad the logic sucks and it's overpriced (IMO). Otherwise, there are not a whole lot of places to get Cherry blues.
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I'll stop now; I couldn't stop wine-ing last night, though. Ugh. Cherry blues are one of the only switches I haven't tried. Cherry blues, reds and Topres are the only major switches I haven't tried. There are some Mitsumis, Acers and few other less popular switches I haven't tried, either, but I don't care as much about those.
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What board did you try reds from?
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Cherry blues, reds and Topres are the only major switches I haven't tried.
They're one of the switches I haven't tried yet. I am not too interested, though, because they are linear, and I prefer tactile switches. I would like to try some Topres, but I want to find someone that has them, and check their 'board out first.
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my reading comprehension sucks, thanks for the clarification
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my reading comprehension sucks, thanks for the clarification
No problem, my writing sucks today, so we're even.
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It's been a week. Did ANYONE return their Das board as a result of the blog?
I did, but I had just ordered the keyboard so the 30-day no questions asked policy still applied to me. Mine wasn't because of the blog. The timing of the blog post was just coincidental since I had explained the typo problem in my refund request as well as linked to this thread and the very article they refer to in their own blog before they posted it. I almost feel responsible for it lol, like the final straw or something. If you've owned it for longer than 30 days and are past the policy period I think you have to e-mail Daniel the co-founder to get a refund.
I'm wondering though, when they get mine if they'll refund the shipping as well. It was 25 bucks :( and I'm in Louisiana-- one state away from them. Damn heavy ass keyboard.
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It's been a week. Did ANYONE return their Das board as a result of the blog?
I did, but I had just ordered the keyboard so the 30-day no questions asked policy still applied to me. Mine wasn't because of the blog. The timing of the blog post was just coincidental since I had explained the typo problem in my refund request as well as linked to this thread and the very article they refer to in their own blog before they posted it. I almost feel responsible for it lol, like the final straw or something. If you've owned it for longer than 30 days and are past the policy period I think you have to e-mail Daniel the co-founder to get a refund.
I'm wondering though, when they get mine if they'll refund the shipping as well. It was 25 bucks :( and I'm in Louisiana-- one state away from them. Damn heavy ass keyboard.
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Upon graduating from business school in Hamburg, Germany, where she is originally from
LOL, I'm from Hamburg too.
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Thanks for responding. Amazing only one person following the post with over 14,000 views is willing to ship it back for a confirmed problem.
actually, i've emailed daniel about returning my das 3. he said someone would get back to me.
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Don't tell the Das guys about this 14,118 view hit thread. I'd hate for them to come rumbling in and spoil the fun.
i think they might already know. they said they were made aware of this issue 'last november', which coincidentally is when i started this thread. so someone here may have already tipped them off.
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i think they might already know. they said they were made aware of this issue 'last november', which coincidentally is when i started this thread. so someone here may have already tipped them off.
"Last November" is total fiction, I RMA'd two keyboards for this problem in July 2008. Not that I am bitter.
Surely you all can tell that I am not bitter. I am all posies and heart-stickers for Das Keyboard.
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They won't refund you the shipping. Sorry. That's the way most of these "30 day guarantees" work. $25 was high, I paid $12 from a UPS store on the West Coast. It's not THAT heavy.
They finally got the keyboard back and refunded the price of it, but the shipping... well, "There was no note or anything to indicate you desired a refund of the shipping cost, and the packaging has been thrown away already."
Looks like it's my fault for assuming they would and not leaving a note, but I mean... why wouldn't I desire my money back? Damn businesses. The customer service person did calculate the cost and refunded me $8, even though for some reason my UPS store charged me $23, so I did thank her for that. Their customer service has been pretty great aside from that one caveat
I also asked them when their "next version" would be out and they said they had no specific timeframe, but their goal is this year and that they'll contact me when it's debuting.
Also could someone explain to me why it cost me so much to ship it?! I asked at the store if that was the cheapest and the girl was just all, "uh huh :B" so I shrugged and reluctantly paid it.
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That's a horrible shipping cost... I mailed a model m AND a chicony PRIORITY MAIL and it only cost me something like $15...
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It's rather funny how sour your clientele can turn by nickel and diming them over shipping. Companies like Zappos and Newegg have wonderful return shipping deals, as if they're almost finding ways to give you free return shipping and free expedited shipping on the next item you purchase from them.
Instead you'd rather piss your customers off by keeping the couple bucks to ship? Jesus...
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Hamps - I'm still curious about the "contact the CEO" part. Did you do that? Did they call you to follow up? Was the RMA "no questions asked? - no receipt required?"
Nah, I didn't contact any CEO. I just submitted a refund ticket using their helpdesk and they responded immediately with an apology, RMA #, and instructions for shipping http://daskeyboard.mojohelpdesk.com/
Like I said though, I just ordered the thing and was still within the 30-day policy so my return was just the run of the mill type. In your case it's probably different since getting a refund in light of their blog post is undoubtedly more complicated, but still I'd go through with it if I were you because they're offering it. Oh and also because the keyboard doesn't type right lol.
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someone did get back to me, she asked me to submit a ticket to their help desk (in addition to the one i submitted back in november, but that one was closed without any real resolution) and once i did, i was given instructions on how to send the keyboard back to them.
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Metadot sells the trouble ticket system. It's a very interesting business model they have - sell flaky keyboards and the SW to track their flakiness.
At least we know their software is thoroughly tested.:smile:
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I'm still convinced their an undercover government agency whose real goal is to collect fingerprints. You need a product that you know people will return and you need that product to be a magnet for fingerprints. Thus, the Das III was born. The mechanical keyboard that typos.
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I'm still convinced they're an undercover government agency whose real goal is to collect fingerprints. You need a product that you know people will return and you need that product to be a magnet for fingerprints. Thus, the Das III was born. The mechanical keyboard that typos.
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just got my refund from metadot.
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yes, return shipping took a couple of days and the refund to my credit card took another couple of days.
i also have a blue cherry filco on order.
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Everyone on GH has just declared war on "chris_". "Unsubstantiated" my fat ass. First off it ISNT the "same result" on other boards (is he a metadot plant?!), and secondly if his board is working either he doesnt type as fast as he thinks, or he clearly got a model after some patch went into effect.
sheesh.
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And no doubt, here is chris_ "analyzing" the Das keyboard that I received:
"Um. What hole?"
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=2741&stc=1&d=1245475888)
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Unsubstantiated, hunh. Someone tell Das, maybe they can retract their admission of guilt. It's not like we're all a bunch of nutcases and DAS acknowledges the problem because we're so charismatic. Surely, they'd rather dismiss our bogus assertions and continue selling their perfect keyboards, if these claims are truly unsubstantiated.
chris_ = troll.
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I don't think he really understands the definition of a meme
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ignore this post
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Welly, I was going to say something about your last post but am actively trying to NOT catch up with your post count.
Give the idea to Lowpoly, not Metadot. They need to concentrate on fixing the board they got.
lol, i had posted it in the wrong thread (it was meant for the humblehacker thread). :D Its in the right place now.
And yes, I'm trying very hard to MAKE you catch up to me ;) but i'm not being very successful at it :D
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Sorry to keep bumping this but now Geekhack is a VIRAL MEME!!
This is from The Techlounge. (http://www.thetechlounge.com/article/582/Das-Keyboard-Professional/)
Haha, funniest bit was: "a lack of testing of other keyboards". He doesn't know you guys very well! :doh:
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another one bites the dust
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guess what, i'm in the thread.
and no, not one of you has any sort of data about the sampling rates of this controller or of other controllers. it's an unanswered question.
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i don't have a trouble ticket to file. i have not noticed any unusual level of typos on mine. i am able to reproduce the same behavior on my M10, even though it requires more precise timing before the keystrokes register simultaneously. i am able to reproduce the same problem on every dell rubber dome board in my cube at work. i await convincing evidence that there is a problem with the sampling rate of this keyboard.
it's as simple as this: the keyboard is either sampling too slowly to permit accurate typing at reasonable speeds, or it is not. i would say that any keyboard should be expected to handle up to 150 wpm.
now, in order to demonstrate that there is a bug we need data: we need to know the sampling rate of the controller and we need to know how much variance there usually is in time between keystrokes for human typists (because obviously at 100 WPM I am not issuing keystrokes at an unvarying rate of 8⅓ Hz).
with this data we can determine whether the board is sampling too slowly. without it, all we can demonstrate is that when multiple keys land between scans the controller sends them in a predictable order. this is unsurprising behavior for a deterministic machine.
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(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=2878&stc=1&d=1245978827)
-huha
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now we're getting somewhere.
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guess what, i'm in the thread.
and no, not one of you has any sort of data about the sampling rates of this controller or of other controllers. it's an unanswered question.
It isn't unanswered at all. Why so confrontational? Daniel, the co-founder of Das Keyboard has stated that "the detection time of the current version was designed as 100ms."
http://www.daskeyboard.com/blog/?p=82
Important message about potential character inversions
Hello everyone! I am Daniel the co-founder of Das Keyboard. We are a US company located in Austin Texas and we love the passion of our users.
We have been looking into the character inversion phenomenon that occurs in some cases. As Devin Coldewey from CrunchGear says describing a Das Keyboard user experience: “when keys are pressed in rapid succession on his Das Keyboard, the letters always show up on the screen as if he’d pressed the leftmost keys first, then the ones on the right. “. This was brought to our attention last November. Our testing has shown that this is in fact a “limitation” of the first version of our keyboards. The detection time of the current version was designed as 100ms which means that if you are a very, very fast typist, approximately 120 words per minute then, you might encounter this limitation. It’s something we are redesigning for the next version of Das Keyboard.
In the meantime, we would be more than happy to let anyone who is experiencing this problem return the keyboard for a full refund. To do so, you can contact me at any time at +1-512-346-0360 or via e-mail at daniel(at)daskeyboard.com. If you would like to discuss this with me personally, you can reach me the same way or I am happy to discuss it here in our community. Your feedback is critically important to us, please keep it coming to help us improve future generations of our keyboard. Thank you.
100ms. That's 1/10s. That was an extremely poor design choice, and it's pitiful considering what modern electronics is capable of. Don't you think it's bizarre that an IBM model M made 25 years ago is superior in this respect?
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what raj said :)
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finally, the data!
now i'm left wondering only why 70 and 80wpm typists are complaining. they shouldn't even be running into this.
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wpm is an average. There are bursts where series' of keys come in faster, especially where you can roll your fingers across keys.
Anyone who's been typing for a while probably has certain words they can type really fast. When I did programming in BASIC I could type words like FOR NEXT GOTO GOSUB LET blisteringly fast even though I couldn't type a coherent sentence to save my life.
I barely scratch 60 wpm even now, but even I've seen a few errors from the DAS. Not enough to worry about as my own errors easily outweigh them.
And I think once you know about the problem you can adjust your technique to avoid the problem, by typing smoothly. I think that is good form for normal typing speeds anyway. But once you get past 120wpm it's a different story.
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There are bursts where series' of keys come in faster, especially where you can roll your fingers across keys.
thats exactly right, thats why you dont have to be an expert typer at all to start seeing the problem. If you're a hunt and peck typer you might not see it, but nearly everyone else would run into it as their finger roll across common words while typing.
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I talked to a person last night who was bragging about owning a Das III. I told him about its transposition error at higher speeds. His response couldn't have been more perfect:
"I haven't noticed any problems with thsi keybaord"
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And I think once you know about the problem you can adjust your technique to avoid the problem, by typing smoothly. I think that is good form for normal typing speeds anyway. But once you get past 120wpm it's a different story.
Sightly OT: I don't type particularly fast (maybe 60-65 WPM at best), but I type very smoothly. With a lot of people, you hear them type something like a word at a time (short pauses between each word). When I type, especially when I have fully thought out what I am going to type, it sounds like continuous stream of key presses with no breaks in between words (other than hearing the spacebar being pressed).
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with this data we can determine whether the board is sampling too slowly. without it, all we can demonstrate is that when multiple keys land between scans the controller sends them in a predictable order.
but even without that data, we can also demonstrate that the predictable order occurs with greater frequency on the das (and some other keyboards, as you've noticed) than on other keyboards. because what we think are 'simultaneous' keypresses are not always truly simultaneous, we can infer that that the das scans its keys slower.
suppose two cars accelerate full throttle from a dead stop. one car takes twice as long to hit 120mph than the other. you do not need to know the horsepower outputs of the cars to make this observation. you can also reasonably conclude that the quicker accelerating car has more horsepower than the other, even if you don't know the exact numbers.
btw, you mentioned you could reproduce the problem on the m10 and rubber dome keyboards, but you didn't say anything about the model m or dell at101 or keytronic keyboards you have in your sig. did you test them?
now, in order to demonstrate that there is a bug
i personally never referred to it as a bug, i've always called it an 'issue'. bugs are flaws in software/firmware that result in unintended effects. i couldn't be sure that this behavior wasn't inherent in the das's design, so i couldn't be sure it was a bug. since we now know that the 100ms scan interval was by design, this is technically not a bug.
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no, i just tested what was on hand at the time. i don't really see the point now that we know the scanning frequency is 10 Hz, which is below the minimum limit for supporting 150 WPM.
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"I haven't noticed any problems with thsi keybaord"
lmao
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And I think once you know about the problem you can adjust your technique to avoid the problem, by typing smoothly.
metadot could use this as a selling point.
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metadot could use this as a selling point.
What. "We f*cked up our keyboard, so we can help you with your typing?"
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no, i just tested what was on hand at the time.
ah, that makes sense then. you didn't experience the issue with your das in normal typing, so you were understandably skeptical that there was one. you briefly tested some keyboards and they behaved no different than the das (because they too had relatively slow key scanning), which affirmed your skepticism. believing there was no problem, you saw no reason to test any other keyboards, like your model m or dell at101. if you had, though, i believe you probably would have noticed that, given enough test iterations, the das would produce repeated patterns significantly more often than either of those keyboards.
(not attacking you, just trying to understand why you were initially resistant to the das problem.)
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well, that, and that until last night the only evidence i'd seen anyone present was that "it is possible to press two keys inside a single scan" followed by a whole bunch of hocus-pocus and handwaving about feeling that there were more transposition typos
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because when you dump $130 into a keyboard, your natural reaction is to justify your purchase :P jk I don't want to be a part of this sh!tstorm
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oh did i not mention i got mine for 50% off?
place your order from a college campus address, it pays
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He's the OP of this megapost. I know sarcasm when I see it. :d
F'Sho'. I was just piling on.
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oh did i not mention i got mine for 50% off?
place your order from a college campus address, it pays
megadot is giving a 50% college discount?!
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Only on campuses with heavy alcohol consumption. Keeps the WPM below 120.
Not really. It just affects spelling and choice of words. You can still type just as fast. I had my all time best score at Minsweeper hammered (97 on Expert). I was much faster drunk than sober.
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by the way has megadot fixed this problem yet? (I do see it as a bug by the way). if you buy a new das today, does it have the same issue?
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well, that, and that until last night the only evidence i'd seen anyone present was that "it is possible to press two keys inside a single scan"
in the very first post, i thought that this may have been the cause of the issue, though i didn't use those terms. the keypress test results appeared to support this, or at the very least didn't contradict it. to me, that was evidence, though not necessarily proof. (i'm using the term 'evidence' in the scientific sense of the word - i.e. observations to support or disprove a hypothesis.)
when deckguy adam posted to the thread, he mentioned key scan rates and that gelled it together for me. it still wasn't proof though - that didn't come until metadot finally revealed the 10hz scan rate.
a whole bunch of hocus-pocus and handwaving about feeling that there were more transposition typos
it was this 'feeling' that prompted me to do all the testing. i'll be the first to admit the simultaneous keypress test is subjective, so i tried to reduce bias as much as i could with what i had. the results i posted were just a subset of all the results. i did a substantial number of iterations with different key combinations, switched hands and mixed fingers from different hands to reduce muscle memory effect, etc. the das produced the repeated patterns significantly more often than my other keyboards (although in the course of expanded testing, i discovered that the das was not alone - some other keyboards also had this issue, but i hadn't run into this problem before because these other afflicted keyboards are not ones i normally use).
i posted my thoughts and results to see if others could confirm or contradict them, but i also knew that not everyone would experience the issue in normal typing.
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World record continues to be Stella Pajunas in 1946, 216 WPM on an IBM electric. Guiness no longer keeps records for fastest typist.
Must be not leet.
Good lord. On a typewriter, even. 216 WPM doesn't even seem possible. I can't even move my fingers that fast let alone accurately pressing keys.
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by the way has megadot fixed this problem yet? (I do see it as a bug by the way). if you buy a new das today, does it have the same issue?
probably. they said it would be fixed in the 'next version' of the das keyboard (presumably the das 4?).
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probably. they said it would be fixed in the 'next version' of the das keyboard (presumably the das 4?).
i see, thanks. you'd think they'd feel some urgency about the issue.
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It's funny how this thread is still getting more posts day by day when people from DAS clearly did absolutely nothing to fix their boards. Until they make a new one, I don't give a sh*t because Filco is way better imho.
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Hmm... just realized CST must be for Costar.
This is correct.
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you'd think they'd feel some urgency about the issue.
I suspect the first batch is already produced, packaged and sitting somewhere on a shelf. Maybe 5000 to 10000. They can't just stop production and run a different controller.
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oh wow. I"ve been reading alto of negative comments on the DAS III lately, i'm starting to worry cause i've got one on order and I can't cancel it ><. Hopefully it may not be as bad as I thought it would be though.
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metadot could use this as a selling point.
Or they could say: "As used by scriptwriters of The Fast Show."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75wGSe1SDyw
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(http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/9351/osz1.jpg)
Now with switch connected!
More results coming later, going to bed now.
-huha
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Damn, I haven't seen a breadboard since college :x
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Hello Everyone! I'm Andy, the Community Manager for Das Keyboard. It seems this string has gone on a for very long time. I'm sorry to see that so many people have had poor experiences with Das Keyboard; that's certainly not how we want it to happen!
The underlying point of this string, the n-key rollover error was correct. We discovered about a year ago that for those people who typed more than 120 wpm, the detection time of the keyboard (100 milliseconds) caused some character inversion errors. I'm told this error is, in part, due to the technical limitations of USB. Our founder posted this in response to the situation: http://www.daskeyboard.com/blog/?p=82 (http://www.daskeyboard.com/blog/?p=82)
we discovered that this error only affected those people who type at least 120wpm, which as you know, is very fast. If you don't type that fast, you won't even notice it. If you're one of the gifted people who can type that fast, hopefully you saw this announcement and were able to take advantage of it. If not, your Das Keyboard still has a full year warranty; I would encourage you to use it!
On another note, the model in question here, the Das Keyboard III, has just been discontinued and been replaced with the Das Keyboard Model S (http://www.daskeyboard.com/blog/?p=417), which has been specifically designed to avoid this character inversion error. The new model also offers media control functions and KVM swtich compatibility. (The Model S Professional also has lasered-on letters, so they won't wear off, even with excessive use.) If your only complaint about Das Keyboard was simply due to this character inversion error, then I hope you'll give the new Model S (http://www.daskeyboard.com/blog/?p=417) a chance.
I saw a few comments about poor customer service experiences. Please accept my apologies for any frustration, time wasted, or any negative experience you had. Part of my job is to make sure that everyone has a remarkable and positive Das Keyboard experience. I'm completely separate from the helpdesk, but I have a line of communication directly to those to oversee the helpdesk and every other aspect of the company.
If anyone had or is having any experience with Das Keyboard that is less than remarkable, please contact me right away so I can do my best to make it right. I do my best to find discussions and forums where people are talking about Das Keyboard, but that obviously is a pretty big task. I always appreciate customer and fan help in identifying any discussion, both positive and negative, so I can make sure everyone's experience is what it should be.
If you have any feedback, comments, questions, concerns, or any other matter, please let me know. My name is Andy and you can reach me at community[at]daskeyboard[dot]com. By the same token, if you have a fun picture or happy story you'd like to share, I love to get those too!
Thanks again for your participation in the Das Keyboard discussion; have a great day!
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WELL. Sounds like the DAS could be worth purchasing after all. Going to do edit a few comments on another forum...
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Hey Andy,
Glad you made an account on here and addressed it. For a while it was like Metadot was turning a blind eye to arguably the most active English speaking mechanical keyboard forum. Is Costar still doing your boards? What are you, internally, doing to address the key transposition problem? Not a person stab, were just a bunch of curious nerds, and I'm sure it'll be asked soon or later. Also do you guys offer any type of 'trade in' from the DAS III or the Model S?
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I'm glad Andy is paid to do this.
Lol yeah...
And just a question for you Andy, maybe you can get a reply from the design department.
Why did you replace the left windows key with a function key? That seems counterproductive to me. I understand everyone uses their keyboard differently, but I don't know anyone that would rather have some media keys than a usable windows key(right one doesn't count BTW, very few use it haha)
I agree with the stickiness value of this thread!
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the detection time of the keyboard (100 milliseconds)
Let's assume this statement is referring to the key-transposition problem. Metadot claims that the Das-3 scans its key switches every 100ms. So, if you press keys faster than 10Hz, those keys may be transposed on the Das-3.
This claim is ridiculous. A total fabrication. It does not even sound plausible. A keyboard that scanned keyswitches so slowly would be unusable for even a moderate typist. It is easy to demonstrate that a Das-3 can properly sequence keys struck at 20Hz; I never had problems until 60Hz.
Why not claim that the keys are scanned at 60Hz, and that only very fast typists will experience transposition errors? This seems like a plausible claim. It is not that easy to hit keys at 60Hz. Only well-practiced key sequences are likely to cross that threshold.
If you want to impress us and win our good favor, please provide supporting documentation that will defend this ridiculous 10Hz claim. From here, it seems as untruthful as Metadot's claim, only a few months ago, that transposition errors did not happen at all.
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Andy, really nice to see you at Geekhack. Speaking for myself I really appreciate that you took the trouble to join us.
If we seem a little, er, 'blunt' sometimes, please understand its because we love keyboards and not cuz we hate vendors ;-D I know it may not seem that way sometimes, but its true.
Any chance we can get a demo of the new S model to try out? If its possible, I think it would go a long way towards assuaging long standing Das fears at GH. And we would be really happy to welcome a new competent blue cherry contender in the marketplace.
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as one of the few people here without a blue cherry board, i rub my hands together in anticipation of being chosen for such a task.
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I understand everyone uses their keyboard differently, but I don't know anyone that would rather have some media keys than a usable windows key(right one doesn't count BTW, very few use it haha)
i would rather have the media keys than a left windows key. of course, i'd prefer to have separate media keys entirely, than having to hit an fn key first.
but, it is what it is. we'll see if it is what metadot claims it to be.
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i still dont understand the media keys on the HHKB. so you have to be in mac mode to use them... fine.
but even in mac mode, they dont work in windows. fine, ill just map them to a global hotkey for foobar... it won't control it how i want, but better than nothing... but even that won't work!
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yeah using Fn just for media keys is a bit much... especially when they are so far away. you're going to need to reach anyway, why not make dedicated keys. or if you are going to use Fn for them, make them close-by. taking away a windows key (however useless it might be) just to do all this is even worse.
too bad DAS still doesn't simply state the switches, they use, call it THE BEST KEYBOARD IN THE WORLD, PERIOD, and quotes stuff like this:
"...there's something distinct about the feel of the Das Keyboard that you just won't find anywhere else..."
they say "The Model S Silent keeps it outstanding tactile feel."
tell that to these blue cherry people.
unless they have invented some variant to the blue, instead of using brown like some suspect.
too bad they don't just say! just go on and on about german engineering and gold-platedness.
EDIT still says NKRO over usb...
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Any offensive comments posted by Ripster in this thread were done by somebody that hacked into my account.
Typo there, buddy:
That should have been "Any inoffensive comments..." right? :blabla:
Sorry, man, you made that too easy!
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i would rather have the media keys than a left windows key. of course, i'd prefer to have separate media keys entirely, than having to hit an fn key first.
but, it is what it is. we'll see if it is what metadot claims it to be.
ahh yes but are you a windows user or do you use mac or linux?
I remap mine to capslock anyway, but if I didn't know about software that could do that and I was looking at this keyboard, I would not buy it just for that reason. I use win all the time and I know a lot of people that do as well.
Like I said, for me it's not a problem, but it seems like for the general public it's not such a good move.
Silent version sounds cool, and yeah my vote's on browns.
I wonder how the feel of the keyboard would be with browns? The keycaps have a very unique feel to them compared to a cherry or filco so it would be interesting to feel and hear them without the click.
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ahh yes but are you a windows user or do you use mac or linux?
I use win all the time and I know a lot of people that do as well.
i use windows, but rarely use the windows key.
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i use windows, but rarely use the windows key.
Oh, I see.
Then away with you! You are of no use to my arguments!
lol no I guess you're just the first I've met. What do you do mostly on your computer?
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I use Windows, but I don't use the Windows key either. I didn't "grow up" using the Windows key, and not using it doesn't stop me from doing anything, so I never really cared to start using it.
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lol no I guess you're just the first I've met. What do you do mostly on your computer?
the typical things, nothing unusual. i just never got into the habit of using the windows key.
i wonder if the fn key will produce a scan code (opening up the possibility of remapping), or if it's internal to the keyboard.
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I didn't "grow up" using the Windows key, and not using it doesn't stop me from doing anything, so I never really cared to start using it.
I'm still trying to get used to those funny F11 and F12 keys too. :lol:
i wonder if the fn key will produce a scan code (opening up the possibility of remapping), or if it's internal to the keyboard.
It would be nice if it did send a scan code that is ignored by normal systems, but I suppose the risk of creating an issue outweighs the potential benefits, at least from the manufacturer's point of view.
Here's a good idea: why don't they (the standards people) define a standard scan code for "Fn"? That way it can do its stuff internal to the keyboard, and the OS can also have some idea what's happening, so it can be remapped or whatever.
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Ahh, I see what it is most likely. The guys I know are my age(19 and below) so they didn't really grow up without the windows key. So most of the people I know are using it.
That makes sense.
I just find it really useful because of all the key combos, and the way I like my computer is really clean but I still like to be able to access things really quickly, so the win key is indispensable for me.
I use the vista start bar search to launch all of my programs, so I just hit win then start typing and I have a program.
And usually, the FN keys don't produce a scancode, just augmenting the scancode of the key that you press after it so it sends the code for vol up or something like that.
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I use the vista start bar search to launch all of my programs, so I just hit win then start typing and I have a program.
Haha. You are probably too young to appreciate the enormous irony in that statement.
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So are you calling me old?
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Ahh, I see what it is most likely. The guys I know are my age(19 and below) so they didn't really grow up without the windows key. So most of the people I know are using it.
That makes sense.
I just find it really useful because of all the key combos, and the way I like my computer is really clean but I still like to be able to access things really quickly, so the win key is indispensable for me.
I use the vista start bar search to launch all of my programs, so I just hit win then start typing and I have a program.
And usually, the FN keys don't produce a scancode, just augmenting the scancode of the key that you press after it so it sends the code for vol up or something like that.
Funny, I "grew-up" with the Win key, and still don't really use it with Windows.
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Haha. You are probably too young to appreciate the enormous irony in that statement.
That got a chuckle from me.
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So are you calling me old?
Depends. Are you in the habit of hitting F2 Space while editing command lines?
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Not anymore. I eventually adapted to not using the command line. I will say, however, that I am suprised what I still remember and what still comes naturally when I do use the command line. It's like riding a bike.
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Haha. You are probably too young to appreciate the enormous irony in that statement.
I really wish I could say I know what you're talking about, but I can't come up with anything. Would you mind filling me in? lol
I'm not going to deny that I'm new to this whole thing(computers even, only been into them for about 3 years, I only had a mild acquaintance with them before that)
EDIT: or are you possibly referring to me taking advantage of the simplicity of it all? I do understand what's going on there, I'm not just bumbling around stupidly.
The directory for the start bar is c:\programdata\microsoft\windows\startmenu for anyone that's interested btw, you can add shortcuts there and it will be included in the search when you hit win in vista or win7
and no itln I'm not calling you old lol, just calling myself younger and less experienced with the older software
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I use Windows, but I don't use the Windows key either. I didn't "grow up" using the Windows key, and not using it doesn't stop me from doing anything, so I never really cared to start using it.
i mapped my two alt keys to windows keys, so now i have four windows keys.
i wish i were kidding ;D
I dont use them as windows keys tho, I use them for layers in my own autohotkey file.
I dont think i've ever used a windows key as a windows key...
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I never used "dir." I was a dir/w guy. With particularly large directories, I would use dir/p.
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I really wish I could say I know what you're talking about, but I can't come up with anything. Would you mind filling me in? lol
I use the vista start bar search to launch all of my programs, so I just hit win then start typing and I have a program.
There was this old command-line driven operating system called DOS that let you do the same thing - typing the program name launched it.
But they thought that was too complicated for some users, so they created Windows which let you point at things to run them.
Now they are making Windows easier to use by making it quicker to use the method that DOS used 25 years ago.
We've come full circle. I wonder what comes next. :smile:
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I never used "dir." I was a dir/w guy. With particularly large directories, I would use dir/p.
IIRC there was also the popular "dir | more". IIRC that let you hit the spacebar to get the next full screen of data. I miss using the "pipe" (always thought that was a fun name for it).
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IIRC there was also the popular "dir | more". IIRC that let you hit the spacebar to get the next full screen of data. I miss using the "pipe" (always thought that was a fun name for it).
the 'dir | more' came into use because back then, the 'dir' command did not have a switch ('/p') to pause the directory listing. 'dir' eventually got the '/p' switch at some point.
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IIRC there was also the popular "dir | more". IIRC that let you hit the spacebar to get the next full screen of data. I miss using the "pipe" (always thought that was a fun name for it).
This is what dir/p did.
w = "wide" - listed the directory contents across instead of down
p = "pause" - listed the directory contents down like a normal dir command but only a screen at a time, and you would use the spacebar to advance the screen
I'm sure there were more variations, but those were the two I used.
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the 'dir | more' came into use because back then, the 'dir' command did not have a switch ('/p') to pause the directory listing. 'dir' eventually got the '/p' switch at some point.
Dir|more might be a little before my time then (or I didn't learn it until later). I was on Commodore 64s and Apple ][s before I went IBM.
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There was this old command-line driven operating system called DOS that let you do the same thing - typing the program name launched it.
But they thought that was too complicated for some users, so they created Windows which let you point at things to run them.
Now they are making Windows easier to use by making it quicker to use the method that DOS used 25 years ago.
We've come full circle. I wonder what comes next. :smile:
Well, no. Command lines are fast when you know what you want (i.e. you know the command name and its parameters).
What the start menu's search does is looking through the list and trying to match the characters you type with programs; e.g. you can type "wex" to get "Windows explorer" whereas on a console you'd need to type "explorer".
This search is probably the best of both command line and a graphical launcher like the start menu.
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the 'dir | more' came into use because back then, the 'dir' command did not have a switch ('/p') to pause the directory listing. 'dir' eventually got the '/p' switch at some point.
Yes, but remember that that is a very basic use of piping, which feeds the output of one program into the input of another. You can do amazing things by daisychaining a whole bunch of utilities together in the form
app1|app2|app3|app4
Also you have < and > to redirect input/output to files.
It DOS this was mainly used with FIND, SORT, MORE but other OSes put it to better use.
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There was this old command-line driven operating system called DOS that let you do the same thing - typing the program name launched it.
But they thought that was too complicated for some users, so they created Windows which let you point at things to run them.
Now they are making Windows easier to use by making it quicker to use the method that DOS used 25 years ago.
We've come full circle. I wonder what comes next. :smile:
Ahh, I see. I didn't use DOS much, but didn't you have to be in the directory that the program was in to launch it?
The whole reason I use the start search is that you don't have to do any directory changing, it's right there right away.
And yeah, I feel kinda the same way about the progression, it's much faster to type it than to move your pointer to it most of the time, but that would require more thought which apparently people are afraid of.
I love anything that saves me time, even if it takes more effort(to a degree of course)
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commands vs local executables
not sure about DOS/cmd but i know linux lets you override
not that windows implements it the best, but i think a graphical launcher with suggestions/results is overall the best way of doing things.
not that forgetting a command is a big deal... most of the time tab[tab] is enough to make you remember
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Sorry for reviving the thread, but, just for the record, on my 2011-made G80-3000, the problem does not occur (not for any of the combinations listed by the OP)(as stated by multiple users in this thread) . Maybe there's been a design change for the g80-3000.
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I found this thread by accident, and when I read though the whole thing, and did my own testing, I had to reply because the Model S was released back in 2009 yet I seem to have the same problem that was present in the previous revision. I got mine 11 December 2011. I might call daskeyboard at some point, but I wanted to see what people around here had to say first.
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Thoughts?
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Humor me.
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I don't see how that explains why Das released a new revision of the keyboard in 2009 that claims to have fixed the transposition error, but in reality hasn't fixed anything.
EDIT: My keyboard doesn't have the Fn keys, instead I just have a left windows key. Does that mean that my keyboard is from the old revision? I find this weird because on their website, all the pictures are of the supposedly old revision model with the windows key. Did they just not update their site or what? All other websites that sell the Model S also have that picture showing the product...
On a side note: Can anyone confirm that the Rosewill RK-9000RE doesn't have transposition errors?