CCnG Round 2! Orders Closed.

[Glod]

So, if I had put $2 on that 820 set order (say roughly 300~400 orders), would it be totally fine for me to keep $600~800 for myself?

it would depend on the sacrifice involved in each order and how the fee is relational to cost of the order. but yes it would be totally fine

[LechnerDE]

I don't think there should be a fixed fee for compensation. Every GB leader should decide that for his GB and clearly state it in the OP. Nobody is forced to participate in a group buy anyway. If the fee is too high people just won't join. I think 2$ is fair though.

I think we could agree that GB leaders should state the additional costs for sorting, fees etc. in the OP, so nobody gets surprised by the actual invoice.

[cobraj]

I don't think there should be a fixed fee for compensation. Every GB leader should decide that for his GB and clearly state it in the OP. Nobody is forced to participate in a group buy anyway. If the fee is too high people just won't join. I think 2$ is fair though.

I think we could agree that GB leaders should state the addional costs for sorting, fees etc. in the OP, so nobody gets surprised by the actual invoice.

Yeah that sounds like a pretty good plan

[soulfree914]

I don't think there should be a fixed fee for compensation. Every GB leader should decide that for his GB and clearly state it in the OP. Nobody is forced to participate in a group buy anyway. If the fee is too high people just won't join. I think 2$ is fair though.

I think we could agree that GB leaders should state the addional costs for sorting, fees etc. in the OP, so nobody gets surprised by the actual invoice.

Sounds reasonable to me too.
Well, that was quite simple. lol

On a side note, I couldn't get anything out of that huge GB since my other community prohibits such things. (totally non-profit) But, it's all good.
Thanks folks for a good discussion. Guess I was a bit confused of the extra items that were added to my invoice without any prior notice, and that led me to such reasoning.

[sicaine]

Hmm.. ok, point well taken. I was actually hoping for a response like that.
I personally have no issue whatsoever in spending $2 as a gift of gratitude. I'm a thrifty person, but not by that much. lol

Ok, I don't want to brag about anything, but I gotta defend myself, right? I've actually led plenty of GBs already. It's not like I don't know what it takes to manage a GB. I can deliberately explain on what you have mentioned there as "and so on and so on". 
Had managed a GB with 820 sets before (guess which?), some other GBs with 180, 120 sets, etc. Oh, and currently working on a 300 set GB with 200 add-on kits.
Also participated in several sorting events.
Ofc, it is not easy to handle a large GB; it can actually give u a huge headache from time to time if there are quality issues or if u are dealing with extremely picky ppl. Much responsibility comes with it. It's even more difficult if u are doing it while having a hectic job like I do. Like u said, the passion for keyboards and keycaps just drives u to do it.

Ok, so maybe I went too far with the "side job" comment, but I'm just saying if we don't put a limit to this, it could become problematic later.
I mean, what would be the limit for this "fair price"? So, if I had put $2 on that 820 set order (say roughly 300~400 orders), would it be totally fine for me to keep $600~800 for myself? Can somebody ask for $3 per order or even $5 for his work?

No intentions at all to threadcrap or ruin the work going on here. $2 each ($4 total) it is if everybody is cool with it. 
Just trying to see what others think about this matter.  If I'm the only one who's acting like a cheapskate here, then I'm ready to let it go and just go with the flow. lol

As long as the amount is reasonable i don't care. It is a lot of work to read all those pm's changes, talk to sp etc. and i wouldn't do it only if nobody other would do it and i wanna have that special set.

You still have to package it, print the lables, replace sets or resend keys.

If you think this is a great way to earn money, just do it, it will only extend the range of sets. The risk and work and so on will be still on your side.

[cobraj]

Hmm.. ok, point well taken. I was actually hoping for a response like that.
I personally have no issue whatsoever in spending $2 as a gift of gratitude. I'm a thrifty person, but not by that much. lol

Ok, I don't want to brag about anything, but I gotta defend myself, right? I've actually led plenty of GBs already. It's not like I don't know what it takes to manage a GB. I can deliberately explain on what you have mentioned there as "and so on and so on". 
Had managed a GB with 820 sets before (guess which?), some other GBs with 180, 120 sets, etc. Oh, and currently working on a 300 set GB with 200 add-on kits.
Also participated in several sorting events.
Ofc, it is not easy to handle a large GB; it can actually give u a huge headache from time to time if there are quality issues or if u are dealing with extremely picky ppl. Much responsibility comes with it. It's even more difficult if u are doing it while having a hectic job like I do. Like u said, the passion for keyboards and keycaps just drives u to do it.

Ok, so maybe I went too far with the "side job" comment, but I'm just saying if we don't put a limit to this, it could become problematic later.
I mean, what would be the limit for this "fair price"? So, if I had put $2 on that 820 set order (say roughly 300~400 orders), would it be totally fine for me to keep $600~800 for myself? Can somebody ask for $3 per order or even $5 for his work?

No intentions at all to threadcrap or ruin the work going on here. $2 each ($4 total) it is if everybody is cool with it. 
Just trying to see what others think about this matter.  If I'm the only one who's acting like a cheapskate here, then I'm ready to let it go and just go with the flow. lol

As long as the amount is reasonable i don't care. It is a lot of work to read all those pm's changes, talk to sp etc. and i wouldn't do it only if nobody other would do it and i wanna have that special set.

You still have to package it, print the lables, replace sets or resend keys.

If you think this is a great way to earn money, just do it, it will only extend the range of sets. The risk and work and so on will be still on your side.

Don't forget about having to deal with packages that go missing as well etc.

[Krogenar]

Some thoughts:

I don't think there should be a fixed fee for compensation. Every GB leader should decide that for his GB and clearly state it in the OP. Nobody is forced to participate in a group buy anyway. If the fee is too high people just won't join. I think 2$ is fair though.

I think we could agree that GB leaders should state the addional costs for sorting, fees etc. in the OP, so nobody gets surprised by the actual invoice.

I agree with Lechner, there should be no fixed rules as to how much a GB leader is compensated. As for stating what the amount will be at the beginning of the GB, that doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Let's say I run a GB, I might decide at the very end to tack on whatever I thought would be a fair compensation (enough to cover a free set for me, $500, whatever) and then divide it up amongst the orders. I think it's very likely that after the effort of organizing the GB I would want more, after having to wipe so many socialist backsides.

And really, was anyone 'surprised' by a $2 additional charge? Holy crap, I guess I'm eating white rice and crackers for the foreseeable future. If and unannounced $2 charge on a bill sends you reeling from your computer and ricocheting off the floor, find a new hobby. Gupgup could have just worked it into the price -- instead, he listed it as a line item on the frickin' invoice! That's up front and honest. So please, untwist the panties.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again -- I am so tired of hearing GB organizers burnishing their altruism badges ("I don't make any profit! I do this for the community!" "I actually lost money on the last one!") Excuse my language, but eff that horse hockey. Go ahead and make a profit; I don't expect GB organizers to be angels, just be good at organizing groupbuys and we're all aces. I'm not saying that the people who make/made those statements are lying (I hope people who made the last statement certainly are), I just hate the fact that there are those in the community who require them.

On a side note, I couldn't get anything out of that huge GB since my other community prohibits such things. (totally non-profit)

*groan* You're a socialist hero, whatever.

Guess I was a bit confused of the extra items that were added to my invoice without any prior notice, and that led me to such reasoning.

*flicks $2 out of his wallet, drops it*
OH. DID ANYONE SEE MY TWO DOLLARS? (scans the horizon)

/rant

[soulfree914]

Some thoughts:

I don't think there should be a fixed fee for compensation. Every GB leader should decide that for his GB and clearly state it in the OP. Nobody is forced to participate in a group buy anyway. If the fee is too high people just won't join. I think 2$ is fair though.

I think we could agree that GB leaders should state the addional costs for sorting, fees etc. in the OP, so nobody gets surprised by the actual invoice.

I agree with Lechner, there should be no fixed rules as to how much a GB leader is compensated. As for stating what the amount will be at the beginning of the GB, that doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Let's say I run a GB, I might decide at the very end to tack on whatever I thought would be a fair compensation (enough to cover a free set for me, $500, whatever) and then divide it up amongst the orders. I think it's very likely that after the effort of organizing the GB I would want more, after having to wipe so many socialist backsides.

And really, was anyone 'surprised' by a $2 additional charge? Holy crap, I guess I'm eating white rice and crackers for the foreseeable future. If and unannounced $2 charge on a bill sends you reeling from your computer and ricocheting off the floor, find a new hobby. Gupgup could have just worked it into the price -- instead, he listed it as a line item on the frickin' invoice! That's up front and honest. So please, untwist the panties.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again -- I am so tired of hearing GB organizers burnishing their altruism badges ("I don't make any profit! I do this for the community!" "I actually lost money on the last one!") Excuse my language, but eff that horse hockey. Go ahead and make a profit; I don't expect GB organizers to be angels, just be good at organizing groupbuys and we're all aces. I'm not saying that the people who make/made those statements are lying (I hope people who made the last statement certainly are), I just hate the fact that there are those in the community who require them.

On a side note, I couldn't get anything out of that huge GB since my other community prohibits such things. (totally non-profit)

*groan* You're a socialist hero, whatever.

Guess I was a bit confused of the extra items that were added to my invoice without any prior notice, and that led me to such reasoning.

*flicks $2 out of his wallet, drops it*
OH. DID ANYONE SEE MY TWO DOLLARS? (scans the horizon)

/rant

Haha, I knew some kindergartener will come up and say something like this without fully reading what I wrote.
All that crap about commenting line by line (yes, line-by-line, not by the full context), stereotyping, assuming things like u're the know-it-all guy... it's really not worth my time to respond. lol.. really, this is hilarious. Discussion is over dude. I am in full support of this GB, never tried to bring in anything negative.
$2 is nothing for their work: agreed in the first place (please read in the context if u can kid). Knowing the characteristics of gb's where $2 can easily become $2,000 with the right purchasing bunch, I was simply wondering if ~$300 was ok to ppl for one person's work. (two guys here, so $600 total)
ppl mostly said yes, and I respect that. I don't fully agree with that (still think two free sets are enough), but I do respect that and we move on.

There was nothing against the folks here who are doing the hard work; if I did offend gupgup or tjcaustin,
I do apologize but it was never my intention.
Maybe some clarification on what those GH keys and gupgup keys were in the first place could've helped, but other than that u guys are doing a fantastic job.

Again, handled several gb's, handled even more severe idiots than this guy here. Yes, ur dumb-looking avatar attests to that.
Just one suggestion before u keep irritating ppl:
When u are the frog in a well just lingering around GH, don't assume anything about any other person or community.
There are other communities that have different cultures where ppl do spend much time for other community members and friends at no cost.
Again, let's not act like the know-it-all guy. U don't automatically become the coolest guy when u can link a Youtube video (oh wow, sssoooo awesome) , and act like the most generous person in the world. lol

Now I understand what one of my GH friends told me before; it's not worth dealing with such lunatics that come and go.. better off ignoring those losers and focusing on the real life. 

[alixinhzai]

ahhhh plz update my order

[ApocalypseMaow]

Why can't we be friends, Why can't we be friends. *singing*

[Tym]

Soulfree914, I have no previous problems with you, but from what you have said so far (and this has nothing what so-ever to do with me) I really do not like you. I considered writing a lot here, but decided against it. There is no need for the anger you have brought here, please take it to this alternative forum you speak off.

[jdcarpe]

soulfree914 is not a bad person. He is from a different culture than our Western one. We can all get along here. I think krogenar just took his comments as being negative, and then it spiraled downward from there.

[Kempher]

2$ is more than fine, it shouldnt even be up for debate. Even being one of my first GB's I still assume there will be extra unlisted costs for packing and handing, additional replacement sets, and extra money or sets for the GB organizer. Why should I care if the GB organizer makes a little from this? How many hours did he put into setting this up, dealing with people and constantly fixing or changing orders. We can only hope there aren't problems down the road as to not soak up any of the left over money.

[Krogenar]

soulfree914 is not a bad person. He is from a different culture than our Western one. We can all get along here. I think krogenar just took his comments as being negative, and then it spiraled downward from there.

With respect jdcarpe, I think plenty of people could have taken soulfree's comments as being negative, and probably did. I doubt I'm the only person who found them insulting. And yes, other culture's are worthy of consideration, including our own! If soulfree comes from a keyboard community that has outlawed groupbuy leaders from making a profit that's fine, but here at geekhack I don't think it should be a requirement. To me it seems like groupbuy organizers are required to scrape and bow to this idea that non-profitability is a virtue. In my mind (my culture) it's not a virtue. Groupbuy organizers should realize a profit as they define it. If they want to be altruististic non-profits, fine, but there's a subtle tyranny at play here that irks people.

If running a groupbuy well results in organizers making money, you're going to see more well-run groupbuys.

Again, handled several gb's, handled even more severe idiots than this guy here. Yes, ur dumb-looking avatar attests to that.

I'm so glad you're taking the high road. I'm the kid? Nice 'leet speak. Typing 'your' as opposed to 'ur'? No one should be that rushed, kiddo.

Just one suggestion before u keep irritating ppl:
When u are the frog in a well just lingering around GH, don't assume anything about any other person or community.

Maybe it's because I'm a Westerner but your frog reference isn't registering. It's pretty clear to most people reading your comments that you think you're the know-it-all -- running multiple groupbuys, etc. That's great, if it's true -- but your real point is lording this non-profit attitude over GHers, and I disagree with it. You could be a great person, not saying you're not, but here at GH we don't quail at a $2 fee.

There are other communities that have different cultures where ppl do spend much time for other community members and friends at no cost. Again, let's not act like the know-it-all guy. U don't automatically become the coolest guy when u can link a Youtube video (oh wow, sssoooo awesome) , and act like the most generous person in the world. lol

I put your 'confusion' about a $2 'gupgup' charge into perspective, that's why you're (yur) upset. I'm the first to admit I'm a relative newcomer to mechanical keyboards; that doesn't mean I can't comment. Generous? I'm not generous at all; I expect a great keyset from GB organizers in exchange for money. I don't expect GB organizers to be generous, either. Capitalism is honest that way -- no fake declarations of non-profitability required.

Now I understand what one of my GH friends told me before; it's not worth dealing with such lunatics that come and go.. better off ignoring those losers and focusing on the real life.

Not me, I love mixing it up with lunatics.

Apologies to the GH community for the flaming, and my ridiculous avatar. I'll stop now.

[chrisg]

Got my invoice, will be paying on Apr 26. Can't wait to put these great looking keys on my new keyboard! Only recently got my first mechanical keyboard, good timing with this GB.

[esoomenona]

soulfree914 is not a bad person. He is from a different culture than our Western one. We can all get along here. I think krogenar just took his comments as being negative, and then it spiraled downward from there.

With respect jdcarpe, I think plenty of people could have taken soulfree's comments as being negative, and probably did. I doubt I'm the only person who found them insulting. And yes, other culture's are worthy of consideration, including our own! If soulfree comes from a keyboard community that has outlawed groupbuy leaders from making a profit that's fine, but here at geekhack I don't think it should be a requirement. To me it seems like groupbuy organizers are required to scrape and bow to this idea that non-profitability is a virtue. In my mind (my culture) it's not a virtue. Groupbuy organizers should realize a profit as they define it. If they want to be altruististic non-profits, fine, but there's a subtle tyranny at play here that irks people.

If running a groupbuy well results in organizers making money, you're going to see more well-run groupbuys.

Again, handled several gb's, handled even more severe idiots than this guy here. Yes, ur dumb-looking avatar attests to that.

I'm so glad you're taking the high road. I'm the kid? Nice 'leet speak. Typing 'your' as opposed to 'ur'? No one should be that rushed, kiddo.

I don't think anyone else, from what I read, took them as negative. The man was just curious as to where this money was going. Generally, group buys are done because it is a way for the community to get better prices, and they are organized by people who are willing to donate their time and most likely because they have a passion for what they are organizing. Hey was merely asking about that regard, and because he was curious as to whether there was a limit to it.

Also, you began with the name calling and instigation. I think it's understandable that someone would retaliate in kind.

I've dealt with soulfree, and I can assure you what jd says is true. He didn't mean anything negative.

[soulfree914]

Soulfree914, I have no previous problems with you, but from what you have said so far (and this has nothing what so-ever to do with me) I really do not like you. I considered writing a lot here, but decided against it. There is no need for the anger you have brought here, please take it to this alternative forum you speak off.

That's exactly what I was trying to do. No anger, no negativity, before Krogenar came in and reignited something that was already settled.
Maybe my approach was wrong with some bad choice of words? I don't know, please enlighten me. I was just trying to make a simple discussion. Most ppl were reasonable on how they replied to my post, and it really helped me understand where other folks are coming from. 
But that guy was intolerable as to what he was saying and how he was insulting me, period.
Don't know why u wouldn't like me from what I said. Please send me (PM) that long writing of yours that u were planning to write here. 
I would love to discuss things with you, share my perspectives on various communities and group buys, etc. and listen from u too.

Thanks for defending me jdcarpe, but I don't even think this is a Western or non-Western issue; I was just trying to define (or have someone explain) the boundaries of so-called "gifts" given to the group buy leaders. And to be totally honest, I initially took the $6 GH keys, $2 gupgup key, and the sorting fee as "extra stuff" (either working costs or partial donations with suspicious intentions). So, yes I was being a bit over-cautious after receiving that unclear invoice (the sorting fee was quite clear, but were the rest really that clear to everyone?), since there are many other fellow Koreans (some are newbies) ordering here too. After some clarification, I understood the situation and was asssured that there was nothing much to worry about since they would get rid of the $6 GH key cost if u request for it.

But then I saw how many orders there were and as you multiply that number by $4, it became a big number although maybe still not that huge of an amount. So I thought if this becomes a trend in GH, where folks keep increase the gift little by little, it can become out of control and all that extra cost falls down to the newbies that want keycaps badly and the group buy leaders that can charge however much they want for their effort.

But then, one person mentioned even THAT is OK since ppl can stay away if they don't agree to the gift amount. His point was well taken and I thought I would respect those rules (or one of the rules) that have been established here through many trials, discussions, and debates. Based on the assumptions that such rule will be well monitored by folks, especially older members around here, I thought it will be fine.

So, what's left to talk about?

Please move on with the paypal payments.
If anyone has remaining issues with me or what I've said, please PM me. We can talk, make a heated discussion or whatever but I want to stop posting on here where they need to continue with the group buy proceedings.

[soulfree914]

your real point is lording this non-profit attitude over GHers

Ok, I understand that u had some bitter experience with some ppl making "fake declarations" here, but how in the world did that become my real point? Geez... that is really shocking.
I'm going to bed. :S

Sorry, really had to point that out.. i'm speechless now. The asian froggie needs to go to sleep. lol

[mashby]

Personally, I took no issue with paying it, but I would have preferred to know about it up front.  I think this is a great topic and worth discussing in a new thread.

[Krogenar]

I don't think anyone else, from what I read, took them as negative. The man was just curious as to where this money was going.

And there's nothing wrong with wondering what the 'gupgup' key line item was for -- that's not what was insulting. What was insulting was this:

Hmm.. $2 doesn't sound much for an individual.. but considering there are about 145 orders now, u guys will get approx. $290 each for arranging this.
I've seen guys get a free set or two for running a GB..but isn't this a bit too much? Don't get me wrong; I appreciate everything that you guys are doing here.
Just a bit worried that folks will start thinking this is a worthwhile side-job to do. How about we limit it to roughly two full sets (~$150) per person? (just throwing it out there to trigger a discussion. where are our moderators? lol) So, in the case of this GB, it would end up being something more like $1 for each order. But extra gifts should always be encouraged.

The implication is that the GB organizers are somehow milking everyone else with a $2 line item. The implication is that we must all be wary that GB's don't become 'side-jobs' -- profitable side-jobs. The horror!

Generally, group buys are done because it is a way for the community to get better prices, and they are organized by people who are willing to donate their time and most likely because they have a passion for what they are organizing.

Agreed. I think you're correct that most groupbuys are organized without a profit motive. But I don't think charity should be a requirement for running a groupbuy, and it's upsetting when someone suggests that it's not right for someone to make too much money from a groupbuy. I think that's insulting.

Hey was merely asking about that regard, and because he was curious as to whether there was a limit to it.

Esoomenona, can I see your wallet? Or your tax forms? I just want to make sure you're not making too much money, that's all. Joking aside, would you be insulted if I did some rough calculations on your income and suggested that maybe you should limit it? Or that maybe you were making too much? You'd tell me to mind my own business, and you'd be right.

Also, you began with the name calling and instigation. I think it's understandable that someone would retaliate in kind.

I don't believe I actually called anyone a name. If I did, I apologize, as that's not right, period. I usually try to focus on the argument being made, not the person. Still, people take pushback against their opinions personally most of the time.

I've dealt with soulfree, and I can assure you what jd says is true. He didn't mean anything negative.

I'm not saying soulfree's a bad person. For all I know he rescued puppies from a burning building today. I don't like the attitude that profit (too much profit) is somehow wrong, and I don't like GB organizers being lectured on making too much profit. I admit, this is something I'm ... abnormally passionate about, and I apologize to the people who just wanted to talk about their keyboards.

But then I saw how many orders there were and as you multiply that number by $4, it became a big number although maybe still not that huge of an amount. So I thought if this becomes a trend in GH, where folks keep increase the gift little by little, it can become out of control and all that extra cost falls down to the newbies that want keycaps badly and the group buy leaders that can charge however much they want for their effort.

Soulfree, I don't think that's something we need to worry about. To me, it's like publicly worrying that maybe someone is beating their wife. Then they say, "No, I'm not beating my wife up." And it's all "clarified." But really, can you see how it's kind of insulting to publicly wonder if someone is being unethical?

[tjcaustin]

I don't think there should be a fixed fee for compensation. Every GB leader should decide that for his GB and clearly state it in the OP. Nobody is forced to participate in a group buy anyway. If the fee is too high people just won't join. I think 2$ is fair though.

I think we could agree that GB leaders should state the additional costs for sorting, fees etc. in the OP, so nobody gets surprised by the actual invoice.

I already have my next GB thread wrote and it has everything spelled out in whatever colors you view geekhack in.

Got my invoice, will be paying on Apr 26. Can't wait to put these great looking keys on my new keyboard! Only recently got my first mechanical keyboard, good timing with this GB.

OMG THE 26TH?~!?!

Yeah, that's totally fine.

As to the rest of it?  I have my personal opinions, but what's said has been said and it'll make the next smoother and more words that mean good.

[soulfree914]

Ok, enough of that line-by-line critique. I'd already said that i went too far with the side-job comment. Don't just look at the branches, look at the trees too. Or is that too asian for u too? lol

Maybe we just can't co-exist here. U definitely think making as much money as u want on these group buys is OK. I think the opposite: the leader should be compensated for his time but there should be a limit to that (or at least a rule of thumb) since the keycaps don't become a value-added product or service by going through the leader. It's simply a "GROUP BUY", nothing more, nothing less. Signature Plastics is doing the value-added work/business, not the group buy leaders, to make the raw material turn into nice looking keycaps. If you are running a retail shop with keycaps, who cares how much u're earning? U're providing an official sales channel. But the concept of a group buy should be distinguished from simple vendors & business.

But maybe u'll take this wrong again and say that I'm lecturing u or something. So, I'm done here.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Btw, gupgup and tjcaustin(?), u guys might want to delay the payment a bit for those orders with tsangan kits, if possible.
Some order changes from our side will likely lower the set prices. Thanks! and sorry again for the mess

[cobraj]

Ok, enough of that line-by-line critique. I'd already said that i went too far with the side-job comment. Don't just look at the branches, look at the trees too. Or is that too asian for u too? lol

Maybe we just can't co-exist here. U definitely think making as much money as u want on these group buys is OK. I think the opposite: the leader should be compensated for his time but there should be a limit to that (or at least a rule of thumb) since the keycaps don't become a value-added product or service by going through the leader. It's simply a "GROUP BUY", nothing more, nothing less. Signature Plastics is doing the value-added work/business, not the group buy leaders, to make the raw material turn into nice looking keycaps. If you are running a retail shop with keycaps, who cares how much u're earning? U're providing an official sales channel. But the concept of a group buy should be distinguished from simple vendors & business.

But maybe u'll take this wrong again and say that I'm lecturing u or something. So, I'm done here.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Btw, gupgup and tjcaustin(?), u guys might want to delay the payment a bit for those orders with tsangan kits, if possible.
Some order changes from our side will likely lower the set prices. Thanks! and sorry again for the mess

How about everyone just chill and assume everyone just means the best for the community.

Although soulfree's comment had antagonistic implications, it is better to just assume he is trying to protect the GH community in case individuals do choose to charge exorbitant "fees" for running Group Buys, ultimately harming the GH community.

But everyone can take any comment whichever way they want.

If we all just try and see the best in it, we can only move forward

[Gupgup]

Is this argument still going? I could care less if I get keys or don't get keys. I like hosting group buys because it lets me interact with other people that love keyboards, as I've said plenty of times before, this is my favorite part about GH. I don't do a couple months of very enjoyable "work" to get free keys.

And also, with the money that people donated to my cause for running this group buy, I've put in an extra order of 40 GH key packs to randomly give to others that weren't able to participate in this group buy due to money situations (all the group buys that have been going on).


Gupgup

[Gupgup]

Also thank you to everyone that said a kind word about me


Gupgup

[codymaust]

I would actually support GB organizers accepting PayPal donations or something similar

It seems like more work than I imagine most people here would do without compensation of any kind.. And I wouldn't be getting anything if it weren't for the GB organizer.

[ApocalypseMaow]

Thanks for adjusting my order TJ.

[soulfree914]

Is this argument still going? I could care less if I get keys or don't get keys. I like hosting group buys because it lets me interact with other people that love keyboards, as I've said plenty of times before, this is my favorite part about GH. I don't do a couple months of very enjoyable "work" to get free keys.

And also, with the money that people donated to my cause for running this group buy, I've put in an extra order of 40 GH key packs to randomly give to others that weren't able to participate in this group buy due to money situations (all the group buys that have been going on).


Gupgup

Hey man, there was nothing personal in my intentions, but I do apologize for bringing up the "side job" term.
I was trying to imply that the group buys in general can become like that (earning excessive money compared to the work being done) if things go bad. I know we cannot quantify the effort being put into leading a group buy, and only the folks who had actually been a group leader knows roughly how much time and effort it takes to complete the task. But I was just wondering if there was any cap or way of preventing such scenarios of asking for too much for that "time and effort". And the answer was, in Geekhack, 'No". If you don't like the rules, u should just simply stay away. So, that's cool with me now.
 
Most hobbiest just want to have fun and get keycaps at reasonable prices. And I certainly agree that group buy leaders should be compensated enough for their time and effort (unless u have some special reason as an exception) helping out ppl get what they want. Believe me, I had moments of regrets numerous times myself while packing and shipping hundreds of boxes (skipping lunch to run to the post office, carrying in replacement keys from the U.S. to Korea while on a business trip to save the shipping cost, etc.).

cobraj did nicely sum up what my real intentions were and I am glad that there were some folks who understood why I was trying to play devil's advocate here to get a discussion going.

And yes, anyone can have their own opinion on such matter. So maybe we can state our opinions in some other thread and do a majority vote or something. (ahh.. on second thought, too lazy to do that lol) I previous had good discussions on similar topics with GH moderators: mkawa, reaper, boost, etc. , and I am well aware of how GH has progressed to this point in general. So, plz don't take me as some newcomer trying to force a foreign idea on ppl. After all, we are all here just to get those CCnG keys (in fact, I'm just getting them for friends, not for me.. this is my third CCnG GB that I have participated in). Let's move on with it now.

[Krogenar]

I would quote what others have said, but that's apparently very, very upsetting to them, so I'll just say this:

GH's groupbuy organizers are awesome, and $2 is a very small consideration for their hard work. I don't think a $2 addition to an order is cause for great alarm, or a signal of dark days of groupbuy organizers actually profiting from their work. I object to the attitude of some people to react to profit as something to be guarded against or rooted out. If something is profitable, you tend to get more of it. And I reject the idea that groupbuy organizers are just a gateway to the manufacturer, and not worthy of making a profit. Sure, they may not have injected the molten plastic themselves, but they bring their expertise, experience and passion for keyboards to the table, and they should be rewarded for that -- in praise, keycaps, or even currency. Groupbuy organizers do add 'value' to a groupbuy -- some of them even design the keys, clean up the fonts, etc.

I acknowledge that the vast majority of groupbuy organizers are not in it for the money. I'm just suggesting that if they were, I would be fine with it, I would even encourage it because it would be good for the community.

Someone has suggested that some profit is acceptable -- but not too much! Who decides what is too much? A council? A single person? Who polices the groupbuys to make sure excessive profit isn't being made? What are the consequences for GB organizers who break these rules meant to protect us from excessive profit? Does this sound like an environment that would generate more and better groupbuys? I don't think so. From my perspective, GH is doing fine (superb, actually) without having to adopt a 'no profit policy'.

Also, thanks to soulfree for apologizing for the 'side-job' comments. If you would like to debate the topic further, I would be open to that possibility, in some other thread.

[ApocalypseMaow]

YOU TWO GET A ROOM! GEEZ

p.s. I paid my invoice 
Thanks again Gupgup and TJ!

[Sai]

Paid for my invoice as well. thanks tj.

[soulfree914]

I can write a whole new article about what can happen (real stores, not my abstract opinion..) if group buys head in that direction, Krogenar. There are also some real "side-job" cases and behind-the-scene stories that become really complex when the money gets big and tax issues come into play, mixed with quarrels among ppl. But I won't bring such things up here anymore. lol
Besides, there is no guarantee that things that had happened in some other community will happen the same here.

I do agree on your point that GH has been doing well so far with the current GB rules. And I certainly hope it stays that way since I like this hobby community much. Made great friends around GH and been enjoying being sort of like one of the evangelists of Korean custom keyboards.

Thanks folks for tolerating such an unexpected, heated discussion so far. I would like to return the favor by distributing some new keycaps back to GH through Boost. I cannot reveal the full details yet, but Boost will post them within a month or two. All I can say now is that I am working on two color schemes and one actually has a new custom color. There will be a limit to the quantity though due to several reasons.

Also, not sure if this will help anyone (maybe the ones who ordered the tsangan set?), but if possible, I would like to change/increase my order to:

16 base sets, 16 mod sets, 8 keypad sets, and 16 tsangan sets. (Btw, if anyone sees Tsangan, please ask him to contact me lol)

Could you send me a new invoice, TJ?

[tjcaustin]

I can write a whole new article about what can happen (real stores, not my abstract opinion..) if group buys head in that direction, Krogenar. There are also some real "side-job" cases and behind-the-scene stories that become really complex when the money gets big and tax issues come into play, mixed with quarrels among ppl. But I won't bring such things up here anymore. lol
Besides, there is no guarantee that things that had happened in some other community will happen the same here.

I do agree on your point that GH has been doing well so far with the current GB rules. And I certainly hope it stays that way since I like this hobby community much. Made great friends around GH and been enjoying being sort of like one of the evangelists of Korean custom keyboards.

Thanks folks for tolerating such an unexpected, heated discussion so far. I would like to return the favor by distributing some new keycaps back to GH through Boost. I cannot reveal the full details yet, but Boost will post them within a month or two. All I can say now is that I am working on two color schemes and one actually has a new custom color. There will be a limit to the quantity though due to several reasons.

Also, not sure if this will help anyone (maybe the ones who ordered the tsangan set?), but if possible, I would like to change/increase my order to:

16 base sets, 16 mod sets, 8 keypad sets, and 16 tsangan sets. (Btw, if anyone sees Tsangan, please ask him to contact me lol)

Could you send me a new invoice, TJ?

Sent.  Shipping went to a large flat rate box as I was barely able to fit 15 base/mods in a medium before and you've got even more keys than that.  Either way, divided over however many people are getting those caps should make it cheaper than before.

[soulfree914]

Sent.  Shipping went to a large flat rate box as I was barely able to fit 15 base/mods in a medium before and you've got even more keys than that.  Either way, divided over however many people are getting those caps should make it cheaper than before.

Thanks. PM sent.

[tjcaustin]

Update:  Only 57 left to pay and ~25 days left.

[GordonZed]

Hiya, just got an invoice in my email, although I believe I cancelled my order. Sorry for any inconvenience, just want to make sure the changes were made and no one gets screwed.

Still wish I didn't have to have cancelled though :/

[Elrick]

Update:  Only 57 left to pay and ~25 days left.

TJ, will you mark up in the name list on who has paid and who hasn't?

That way we can prepare the gallows for which one's to hang, when the final payment deadline passes  .

[Krogenar]

Paid for my invoice as well. thanks tj.

Great signature!

[Elrick]

Yes, sorted out my email's and found the original payment request (odd it never presented itself in Paypal in the payment requests column).

I have now paid in full for my Green and Cheese's.  Please let me know when it arrives into your account so I know I've done everything correctly.  YES I am still a slow 'special person' when it comes to paypal payments.

So sorry for that  .

[jdcarpe]

Also paid!

Thanks, Gupgup and TJ!

[Ahn Hyung Jun]

Can I still order this CCnG?

[tjcaustin]

Can I still order this CCnG?

PM me what you'd like to order.

Hiya, just got an invoice in my email, although I believe I cancelled my order. Sorry for any inconvenience, just want to make sure the changes were made and no one gets screwed.

Still wish I didn't have to have cancelled though :/

No problems, taken care of

[elton5354]

What if tier drops from late orders ?

[jdcarpe]

What if tier drops from late orders ?

Doesn't look like there are any tiers that are about to hit the next.

[ctbear]

Can I still order this CCnG?

PM me what you'd like to order.

Hi, I sent you a PM regarding this also. Is it still accepting new orders?

[Ahn Hyung Jun]

when is the deadline of payment time?

you told me to PM you if i like to order it.

but i can give you my Paypal Email and pay you about 10 days later.

So i'm wondering that when is the deadline of payment time?

[Sai]

when is the deadline of payment time?

you told me to PM you if i like to order it.

but i can give you my Paypal Email and pay you about 10 days later.

So i'm wondering that when is the deadline of payment time?

Update:  Only 57 left to pay and ~25 days left.

so you're probably still in the deadline.

[tjcaustin]

Can I still order this CCnG?

PM me what you'd like to order.

Hi, I sent you a PM regarding this also. Is it still accepting new orders?

Inv sent

when is the deadline of payment time?

you told me to PM you if i like to order it.

but i can give you my Paypal Email and pay you about 10 days later.

So i'm wondering that when is the deadline of payment time?

I saw you had a paypal email on the order form and I used it.

[ctbear]

Can I still order this CCnG?

PM me what you'd like to order.

Hi, I sent you a PM regarding this also. Is it still accepting new orders?

Inv sent

Thanks. Paid

[yuiop]

What geekhack keys are we getting w/ this set?  I already have a few CCoG and GoCC GH keys from the previous GB.  Is there a third key a la Klaxon?  Not sure if this has been answered already, if so I apologize. Thanks!