Author Topic: One word: PLASTICS (Read 6350 times)

captain · « **on:** Thu, 08 March 2012, 15:33:40 »

Everyone keeps acting like Signature Plastics is the only game on the planet Earth. Has anyone looked into doing custom runs with someone like these guys?

http://www.protomold.com/

For those of you who don't get the reference:
[video=youtube;PSxihhBzCjk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSxihhBzCjk[/video]

alaricljs · « **Reply #1 on:** Thu, 08 March 2012, 15:36:19 »

Seriously?!

Quote

Prices from $1495.

captain · « **Reply #2 on:** Thu, 08 March 2012, 15:38:48 »

Yeah? So? What do you think SigPlast charges for a single run? $700 minimum, for one TKL set. Anyway, if anyone has really looked into it, let's talk about what was discovered. If there is merit, let's explore it. If it's proven that SP is the only game in town for a good reason, then let's enumerate the facts.

While we're on the subject, how do artisans like ClickClack make their keycaps?

alaricljs · « **Reply #3 on:** Thu, 08 March 2012, 15:47:48 »

Make your own molds, mold your own caps... There's even a thread on this w/ silicone molds.

At a glance, ProtoMold cannot do a 2 part process... and it's $1500 PER DESIGN... ie: $1500 for the A legend, and so forth.

Human · « **Reply #4 on:** Thu, 08 March 2012, 22:25:06 »

Somehow the first thing came to my mind after saw the title is this...

hashbaz · « **Reply #5 on:** Thu, 08 March 2012, 23:09:37 »

A few months ago Hazeluff and others looked into other keycap manufacturers. Everyone except Devlin outsources to SP. Devlin has serious limitations on the kinds of doubleshots it can do, I believe. Not sure about dye sub. There has been scattered talk about finding a Chinese company, but I don't think anyone is sure how to go about that.

hashbaz · « **Reply #6 on:** Thu, 08 March 2012, 23:13:08 »

Also, PLASTICS MAKE IT POSSIBLE!

[video=youtube;l2Yh_y7Wlbk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2Yh_y7Wlbk[/video]

mkawa · « **Reply #7 on:** Fri, 09 March 2012, 01:40:35 »

Quote from: hashbaz;539828

A few months ago Hazeluff and others looked into other keycap manufacturers. Everyone except Devlin outsources to SP. Devlin has serious limitations on the kinds of doubleshots it can do, I believe. Not sure about dye sub. There has been scattered talk about finding a Chinese company, but I don't think anyone is sure how to go about that.

be really nice to imsto?

captain · « **Reply #8 on:** Fri, 09 March 2012, 13:18:02 »

[video=youtube;9qZMZuZ-D-Q]http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=9qZMZuZ-D-Q[/video]

So, this is what Signature Plastics does, right? At the prices we are paying for a TKL set, that looks like $100 every time the machine opens! lol

IvanIvanovich · « **Reply #9 on:** Fri, 09 March 2012, 15:06:29 »

I have found 1 Chinese plastics company that is capable of 2shots in Guangdong, after contacting around 30 or so. They would be willing to make MX caps if some keys were sent to make mold copies with, BUT not for small orders like we need for our typical groupbuys. They were talking about very large minimum, like 20,000 units. There are options out there if you are a big company.
Too bad costar or some other company won't take up doubleshots since Cherry dropped the ball.

Dox · « **Reply #10 on:** Fri, 09 March 2012, 15:50:07 »

Nice find! I just send a quote request for my ErgoDox on their other site http://www.firstcut.com/ (CNC instead of injection molding).

keyboardlover · « **Reply #11 on:** Fri, 09 March 2012, 16:03:23 »

Sounds like the tagline to ripster's career.

captain · « **Reply #12 on:** Fri, 09 March 2012, 23:46:48 »

Well, it looks like SigPlast's prices are pretty good, when you consider how much it would cost to start up our own double-shot injection molding shop. It's a shame about their QC though, and those paper thin ABS keycaps....

I have seen hints, here and there, of "desktop" or "garage" sized injection molding machines. I rather doubt they do double-shot though. MakerBot needs to invent a double-shot injection molding machine for <$1k! Or maybe I do! :-D

captain · « **Reply #13 on:** Fri, 16 March 2012, 18:07:31 »

This is interesting: Melissa claims that the keycaps molds they use are "40 years old", but SigPlast website says, "Established in 1995, Signature Plastics". So, where did their molds come from? I was assuming, primarily from front side sprue marks and very thin plastic, that the WYSE50 keyboard keycaps are from SigPlast's molds, but it must have been another company that originally made them (and SP bought the molds?). Now that I look more closely, I see that the Wyse50 keycaps have two "fins" underneath that support the sides and the Cherry MX mounting post, while the few SigPlast keycaps that I have managed to get my hands on do not have these "fins". hrmmm....

udgags · « **Reply #14 on:** Wed, 21 March 2012, 23:21:01 »

I have a coinjection molder at work (only 5 years old). Also have pbt sitting on the shelf. The only thing missing would be the molds.

I'm a research engineer and the equipment is not used very often. Makes me wonder if there is any money to be made.....too bad molds are so expensive.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk

hashbaz · « **Reply #15 on:** Thu, 22 March 2012, 00:09:58 »

Quote from: udgags;553156

I have a coinjection molder at work (only 5 years old). Also have pbt sitting on the shelf. The only thing missing would be the molds.

I'm a research engineer and the equipment is not used very often. Makes me wonder if there is any money to be made.....too bad molds are so expensive.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk

Ooooh, please experiment and post results! Any way to make a quick and dirty mold that would at least be proof of concept?

captain · « **Reply #16 on:** Thu, 22 March 2012, 01:42:51 »

Roland CNC!

dorkvader · « **Reply #17 on:** Thu, 22 March 2012, 11:56:22 »

Quote from: ripster;553503

Added pics to key ref wiki.

Why did Melissa throw away the Wyse molds? Thick keys>Current thin keys.

Sent From Brother Ripster's iPad

Most WYSE models are thin, only the -really- old ones are thick.

dorkvader · « **Reply #18 on:** Sat, 24 March 2012, 11:42:06 »

Looking at my '93 WYSE 30, the keycaps do look a little thicker, but not much at all. It looks to be about the difference between SP PBT and ABS: roughly 0.1mm or so. Either way, I wouldn't call either "thick", especially since older WYSE are genuinely thick.

Really, the best difference is that the stem is supported much better on the WYSE. I suspect this would have more effect to the keyfeel than the actual thickness.

Also, there's no info on SP's PBT keycaps in the key refrence wiki.

dorkvader · « **Reply #19 on:** Sun, 25 March 2012, 16:32:49 »

Should I prop the sideways key up on something to get it perpendicular?

aggiejy · « **Reply #20 on:** Sun, 25 March 2012, 21:02:16 »

I've looked into it quite seriously about 6 months ago. I talked with a few american shops (via a consultant, who seemed to know his stuff). Also talked with some Chinese firms. As discussed above though, the issue comes down to molds. Forget the costs, it's the designs that are hard to come by. Without reverse engineering someone else's (which one Chinese company I talked to promoted as a service), it would be a expensive and iterative process. It's certainly doable, and you could even use PBT instead of ABS with the right equipment.

After everything, the numbers aren't pretty. You'd need to make a real business out of it, and sell in quantities that aren't very realistic to eventually break even. This is likely why you don't see much competition with SP for double-shots. You're better off working with KBC who will make you white label PBT blanks for cheap, then print/etch. So as poor as SP caps may be... I have a feeling once they're gone we may be without altogether. Unless someone can make a business out of it.

dorkvader · « **Reply #21 on:** Sun, 25 March 2012, 21:26:50 »

Tape worked great.

Here's some Photos of SP's PBT. I hope they're not blurry.
http://imm.io/k9qK
http://imm.io/k9sx (these two will get removed if no one views 'em in 30 days)

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 45719[/ATTACH] [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 45720[/ATTACH] [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 45721[/ATTACH]

captain · « **Reply #22 on:** Tue, 27 March 2012, 21:23:06 »

Quote from: ripster;556459

Somebody post a pic for the Key Ref Wiki with D down, F up, and S sideways and I will.

Use a micrometer and scale for major geek points - I've been curious how they compare to KBC PBTs and the upcoming Leopold thick PBTs that I predicted back in December.

I have gone beyond #1 to being One with The Keyboard Future.

Do you want this for Filco keys? SP keys? Wyse50 keys? All/none?

dorkvader · « **Reply #23 on:** Wed, 28 March 2012, 00:08:21 »

Quote from: captain;558703

Do you want this for Filco keys? SP keys? Wyse50 keys? All/none?

If I may answer that:

Quote from: dorkvader;555555

Looking at my '93 WYSE 30, the keycaps do look a little thicker, but not much at all. It looks to be about the difference between SP PBT and ABS: roughly 0.1mm or so. Either way, I wouldn't call either "thick", especially since older WYSE are genuinely thick.

Really, the best difference is that the stem is supported much better on the WYSE. I suspect this would have more effect to the keyfeel than the actual thickness.

Also, there's no info on SP's PBT keycaps in the key refrence wiki.

(Emphasis mine)

Quote from: ripster;556459

Somebody post a pic for the Key Ref Wiki with D down, F up, and S sideways and I will.

Use a micrometer and scale for major geek points - I've been curious how they compare to KBC PBTs and the upcoming Leopold thick PBTs that I predicted back in December.

I have gone beyond #1 to being One with The Keyboard Future.

---------------

Quote from: ripster;556741

Thanks, The S key is upside down from the other pics but it'll do fine.

I'll pop into the key ref wiki tomorrow.

Have a digital scale or micrometer by any chance?

Ah my bad. Want me to retake them? I've been looking to get a digital scale and micrometer for a while now, but I didn't see any good ones available. Mcmaster Carr's micrometers' are really expensive. Maybe I'll try eBay.

I guess I can build a balance pretty easily, and grab some nickels to measure mass with.

captain · « **Reply #24 on:** Wed, 28 March 2012, 10:31:52 »

Here you go. Now that this is done, I'll be putting away all of the scientific equipment.

Can you identify all the measuring devices represented here? Big prize awaits the winner who gets them all!

alaricljs · « **Reply #25 on:** Wed, 28 March 2012, 13:00:13 »

Electronic scale, analog caliper and a micrometer.

captain · « **Reply #26 on:** Wed, 28 March 2012, 14:07:10 »

Quote from: ripster;559436

I measure the size of the keyboard by your 1" oak table strips.

LOL! Point for cleverness. :-)

No one noticed the IR thermometer reflected in the scale. That may come in handy for the upcoming PBT dying experiments.

My scale is limited to 1g increments, but 4 keys are 3g and 8 keys are 6g, so I estimate each key at 3/4g.

alaricljs · « **Reply #27 on:** Wed, 28 March 2012, 14:09:35 »

Perhaps no one could tell what that blurry thing was in that tiny pic?

captain · « **Reply #28 on:** Thu, 29 March 2012, 07:26:46 »

Quote from: alaricljs;559481

Perhaps no one could tell what that blurry thing was in that tiny pic?

Hehe. I know. I almost didn't notice it. It's funny what shows up in photos that only Sherlock is wont to recognize as important. ;-)

Game Theory · « **Reply #29 on:** Fri, 30 March 2012, 20:26:53 »

Quote from: captain;548190

This is interesting: Melissa claims that the keycaps molds they use are "40 years old", but SigPlast website says, "Established in 1995, Signature Plastics". So, where did their molds come from? I was assuming, primarily from front side sprue marks and very thin plastic, that the WYSE50 keyboard keycaps are from SigPlast's molds, but it must have been another company that originally made them (and SP bought the molds?). Now that I look more closely, I see that the Wyse50 keycaps have two "fins" underneath that support the sides and the Cherry MX mounting post, while the few SigPlast keycaps that I have managed to get my hands on do not have these "fins". hrmmm....

Signature Plastics was part of Comptec International. See the following for more information http://www.solutionsinplastic.com/images/SIG_NWBM_Article.pdf

captain · « **Reply #30 on:** Fri, 30 March 2012, 23:25:22 »

Excellent work! Sherlock award of the day goes to Junior Member Game Theory! :-)

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Author Topic: One word: PLASTICS (Read 6350 times)