Author Topic: ? how much in7ernet sp3ed do we actually need ?  (Read 3750 times)

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Online tp4tissue

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? how much in7ernet sp3ed do we actually need ?
« on: Sat, 16 July 2022, 07:57:59 »
Tp4 thinks ~300mbps , 37.5 Megabyte/second,  is about as fast as any net service ever get up to.

So, any more, won't really improve real world usage much.


Thoughts?



Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: ? how much in7ernet sp3ed do we actually need ?
« Reply #1 on: Sat, 16 July 2022, 08:35:45 »
I get 8MB/S and that's plenty.  Everything can be streamed now so download times are irrelevant.
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Offline fohat.digs

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Re: ? how much in7ernet sp3ed do we actually need ?
« Reply #2 on: Sat, 16 July 2022, 08:43:51 »
A family of 4, each member of which has multiple devices, along with the family TV, can suck down some bandwidth.
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Re: ? how much in7ernet sp3ed do we actually need ?
« Reply #3 on: Sat, 16 July 2022, 08:55:14 »
I get 8MB/S and that's plenty.  Everything can be streamed now so download times are irrelevant.

4k netflix hdr can get up to 40mbit though, if you have 2 of those streams, that could choke though rarely since there's a buffer.

Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: ? how much in7ernet sp3ed do we actually need ?
« Reply #4 on: Sat, 16 July 2022, 09:32:01 »
4k netflix hdr can get up to 40mbit though, if you have 2 of those streams, that could choke though rarely since there's a buffer.
And why would I want to pretend to watch two 4k streams at once?  If I'm not really watching they can be lower res, if I am watching there would be only one.  This is ignoring the fact that there's not a 4k capable screen in my house.  No netflix either...

Like I said - "for me" 8MB/s is enough :thumb:
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Offline Coreda

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Re: ? how much in7ernet sp3ed do we actually need ?
« Reply #5 on: Sat, 16 July 2022, 11:15:51 »
In the past few months have been seeing posts about users upgrading from 1Gbps to 2Gbps, to even 6Gbps symmetric (Xfinity Gigabit Pro) for their plan. They also have the hardware to support it (SFP+ and 10Gbase-T becoming more affordable).

Kind of wild such speeds are available to some home users.

Offline noisyturtle

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Re: ? how much in7ernet sp3ed do we actually need ?
« Reply #6 on: Sat, 16 July 2022, 12:45:43 »
The real question is: How much internet do we actually need?

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: ? how much in7ernet sp3ed do we actually need ?
« Reply #7 on: Sat, 16 July 2022, 13:01:34 »
The real question is: How much internet do we actually need?

Tim Wu the excellent writer, has explored this question in 2 superb books, The Master Switch (an exploration of modern media itself from about a decade ago) and then more specifically and more recently The Attention Merchants.

I cannot recommend both of these highly enough.
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: ? how much in7ernet sp3ed do we actually need ?
« Reply #8 on: Sat, 16 July 2022, 15:16:52 »
About 10Mbit per user is a good baseline.
And the more users you have the lower that number can be as they are never all online at the same time pulling full data, even with multiple devices.

So something like:
1 person 10 Mbit
2 people 20 Mbit
3 people 28 Mbit
4 people 35 Mbit
But again, this is a baseline, this will serve them fine, obviously more is better, but not necessary for a decent experience. A 50% boost should make for a good, 100% boost for a great experience in general.


All these companies talking about Gigabit are serving a load of B.S.
"Better gaming!" gaming doesn't need gigabit or anywhere close, a modest connection with low lag is far more important.
"Better streaming!" streaming doesn't need high bandwidth or lag, it just needs enough to keep ahead of the video being watched.

None of this uses a massive burst of data.
Sure downloading a game or movie does (not streaming), but even then you're often limited by the server, many of which are using 10Mbit, Gigabit and only a few 10GBit connections all of which are feeding many people at once. You're almost NEVER going to max out a gigabit internet connection, even with a large family. The data just isn't there... Yet.  I won't say we will never be there, but we're rapidly reaching a point where we're exceeding what we as humans can use. We don't need 16K @1000 refresh for streaming movies on a 48in screen much less a 14 or 6inch screen.

It also ignores that wifi isn't even remotely ready for anything close to gigabit speeds, particularly a router provided by the service provider.
"But my router says 1700Mbit!"
That's a bunch of B.S. as well, you will never see that speed from that router. Router companies need to be sued for misrepresenting their product.
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Re: ? how much in7ernet sp3ed do we actually need ?
« Reply #9 on: Sat, 16 July 2022, 15:34:29 »
LLann,  have you seen the new jurassic park dominion ? this movie was shot at 8k, then downsampled to 4k,   the texture quality is absolutely AMAZING,  I've never seen texture fidelity like this....   hair, skin, wall, brush metal, anodized aluminum, you can see every texture clearly.

8k in the future might makes alot of sense... 

Offline Leslieann

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Re: ? how much in7ernet sp3ed do we actually need ?
« Reply #10 on: Sat, 16 July 2022, 20:01:18 »
Not yet.

We will probably peak at about 8-12k for home use (for the foreseeable future), there's simply no reason to go more dense.


Going back to internet speeds, you need a solid and reliable (i.e. no traffic) 40-50Mbit connection to stream 8k @ 60fps (8k60) content, but only about 20-30Mbit if it's compressed (I.E. Youtube), which is the norm when streaming. You do however need a hefty system to decompress it in real time in a browser. If you want to test yourself, go to Youtube and search up New York in 8K Ultra (awesome footage btw), make sure you change the quality setting to 8k, if it doesn't show, refresh the page. Youtube can detect your screen resolution and may not offer it. Then watch your internet traffic, might also want to watch your cpu load as well. It's brutal. Interestingly,  if you download that same stream then watch in VLC the CPU load is about 1/3rd that in a browser.

Would I want to watch 8k60 on a 40 or 50Mbit connection be it internet or or over WIFI?
Absolutely not, ideally you would want at least double that speed, per connection. Double it again for 8k120. It will add up very fast especially with kids (imagine at the server and ISP level!). BUT, that's 8k. Most computers will struggle to even play 8k in a browser right now never mind the network connection. We're a long ways off from that to be honest, probably more than a decade before it's mainstream.


At the filming level it makes sense to go higher (32k?) because downsampling can look better to the human eye, it also gives you room to adjust a shot in the editing room, change framing, zoom, etc... And you would want higher for theater size screens. None of that matters for the end users though.
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Re: ? how much in7ernet sp3ed do we actually need ?
« Reply #11 on: Sun, 17 July 2022, 08:32:40 »
4k bluray quality is ~100mbit peaks

8k, we probably need at least 3x that, 300mbit peaks to make it worthwhile.

8k youtube is, well it's pretty crummy, very low bitrate (for 8k).

Offline Leslieann

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Re: ? how much in7ernet sp3ed do we actually need ?
« Reply #12 on: Sun, 17 July 2022, 11:43:50 »
4k bluray quality is ~100mbit peaks
8k, we probably need at least 3x that, 300mbit peaks to make it worthwhile.
8k youtube is, well it's pretty crummy, very low bitrate (for 8k).

I'm pretty sure no one (not at risk of going bankrupt) is sending Blueray quality 4k uncompressed video.
Ads aren't going to cover that.
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Offline Coreda

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Re: ? how much in7ernet sp3ed do we actually need ?
« Reply #13 on: Sat, 13 August 2022, 22:05:31 »
Read France has €40 home plans for 8Gbps down/1Gbps up. Getting really into NVMe (or fast RAID) necessitating territory for downloads.

Would probably make game streaming a better experience, even self-hosted setups.

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Re: ? how much in7ernet sp3ed do we actually need ?
« Reply #14 on: Sat, 13 August 2022, 23:21:03 »
You need way more than nvme if it's 8Gbit non sequential.

Even 3d cache can't handle that.  you'd need ram drives.

Offline Coreda

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Re: ? how much in7ernet sp3ed do we actually need ?
« Reply #15 on: Sat, 13 August 2022, 23:40:43 »
You need way more than nvme if it's 8Gbit non sequential.

Even 3d cache can't handle that.  you'd need ram drives.

8Gbps = 1000MBps according to multiple calculations I've seen. CrystalDiskMark benchmarks for various NVMe drives show there are models available that can handle that even for random writes.

Offline atarione

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Re: ? how much in7ernet sp3ed do we actually need ?
« Reply #16 on: Sun, 14 August 2022, 00:17:13 »
Tp4 thinks ~300mbps , 37.5 Megabyte/second,  is about as fast as any net service ever get up to.

So, any more, won't really improve real world usage much.


Thoughts?


Show Image


nah...  20yrs ago things like HD streaming would have seemed unrealistic, basically if people build faster networks somebody is going to come along with a way to utilize them.    The internet today is nearly unrecognizable from what is was @ the millennium.     If someone builds it something will use it.

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Re: ? how much in7ernet sp3ed do we actually need ?
« Reply #17 on: Sun, 14 August 2022, 06:46:41 »
8Gbps = 1000MBps according to multiple calculations I've seen. CrystalDiskMark benchmarks for various NVMe drives show there are models available that can handle that even for random writes.

Those are just benchmarks Coreda,  Try 2000 torrent connections at even 80MB/s , it "often" chokes.

It's impossible to do on regular SSDs

Offline Coreda

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Re: ? how much in7ernet sp3ed do we actually need ?
« Reply #18 on: Sun, 14 August 2022, 07:53:17 »
Try 2000 torrent connections at even 80MB/s , it "often" chokes.

Torrents are highly fragmented downloads tbf but I'd be curious about tests with them on NVMe as the random write benchmarks I saw were with a queue depth of 32 and multi-threaded. What NVMe have you tried with torrents btw?

Seems like it'd also be pretty wide ranging to benchmark torrents given the variability in the seeder's connection speeds themselves, apart from one's own connection speed.
« Last Edit: Sun, 14 August 2022, 08:02:01 by Coreda »

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Re: ? how much in7ernet sp3ed do we actually need ?
« Reply #19 on: Sun, 14 August 2022, 08:06:50 »
Try 2000 torrent connections at even 80MB/s , it "often" chokes.

Torrents are highly fragmented downloads tbf but I'd be curious about tests with them on NVMe as the random write benchmarks I saw were with a queue depth of 32 and multi-threaded. What NVMe have you tried with torrents btw?

Seems like it'd also be pretty wide ranging to benchmark torrents given the variability in the seeder's connection speeds themselves, apart from one's own connection speed.


well that's the thing, you won't find many services that saturate bandwidth like torrents.   Torrents is the only realistic way any regular consumer would ever get heavy traffic.  steam installs, sure, but it's just not something you'd do often enough for speed to matter.

Tp4 owns 970 evo plus and Sn750, both top-tier consumer drives of last gen, both will choke on heavy torrents.

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Re: ? how much in7ernet sp3ed do we actually need ?
« Reply #20 on: Sun, 14 August 2022, 09:27:08 »
290250-0

I've got 2.5Gb/1.25Gb fiber service at both my home and my office (that I rent for work/play/etc).  I have a site-to-site VPN tunnel between the two and get 1Gb+ speeds over that encrypted tunnel.  Basically, LAN speeds between locations (I have some 2.5Gb and 10Gb at the office...but most things are still 1Gb on the home LAN). 

Offline Coreda

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Re: ? how much in7ernet sp3ed do we actually need ?
« Reply #21 on: Sun, 14 August 2022, 09:33:58 »
For things like regular, full drive data backups to a remote NAS having particularly fast uploads would be a great help. Kind of infeasible otherwise given the time it'd take for users with a lot of data, which is why some just sneakernet a drive instead (at the downside of not keeping a more up-to-date version).

Offline Leslieann

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Re: ? how much in7ernet sp3ed do we actually need ?
« Reply #22 on: Sun, 14 August 2022, 13:22:28 »
Those are just benchmarks Coreda,  Try 2000 torrent connections at even 80MB/s , it "often" chokes.

It's not that the drive chokes, it's the same as "this cpu is 10% faster than the last one". It is, however a system is not the cpu alone and by the time you add in the rest of the system and understand nothing uses one thing exclusively except benchmarks, that 10% ends up being closer to 3%.

As for your 80MB,
It's not bandwidth killing you there, it's the number of operations, and it's probably your router being flooded, not the drive itself. Start dropping the number of connections and you should see the MB start to rise. I can usually pull 80-100MB across a gigabit network going to or from a spinner with peaks of just over 110.

Over 2.5Gigabit, an NVME should be able to pull around 210-250MB, actual, not theoretical and is within the realm of most sata SSD, let alone NVME.

For 8 Gigabit however, even an NVME will struggle.
I wouldn't count on getting it without hardware NVME raid or a dozen spinners, it may even require a Threadripper or Xeon as well. Not because of the drives, ones capable of it exist, but because of the efficiency of the whole setup. Pushing that much data requires a lot of I/O, ram and cpu and it all has to flow through the chipset as well, any of which could get saturated on common desktop parts. I think people would be surprised how easily you can saturate the chipset with just USB.

BUT..
It doesn't need to, internet data is sent in bursts. This is why I get annoyed when ISP's brag about how faster speeds let you stream faster or play games better. No, it doesn't. If everyone needed a gigabit connection to play games no one would be playing, and Comcast users would be hitting data caps in a couple hours.
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: ? how much in7ernet sp3ed do we actually need ?
« Reply #23 on: Sun, 14 August 2022, 13:53:29 »
For things like regular, full drive data backups to a remote NAS having particularly fast uploads would be a great help. Kind of infeasible otherwise given the time it'd take for users with a lot of data, which is why some just sneakernet a drive instead (at the downside of not keeping a more up-to-date version).

I think your ISP and your host would have something to say about that.
Besides, many servers, especially archive servers are still running on gigabit and sometimes even slower connections.

And they don't need or want it to be faster.
Besides the amount of power and heat 10+Gbit requires/puts out, there's another issue and that is bandwidth. Faster connections and more data cost them money. If people could store unlimited data for $5 a month imagine how much data people would store.


And there's no need for regular, full disk backups anyhow, that's just an abuse of resources (not to mention risky).
I can't tell you how many full disk image backups I've seen that didn't boot. Sure, they (usually) work on the same system using the same parts, but what happens when a drive fails and you buy a bigger, faster one, or change formats (sata to nvme), or heaven forbid you changed the motherboard. These are the exact catastrophic scenarios disk images are created for and yet they're the most likely to fail when you need it. If you replace anything, there's a risk that backup will no longer work. Disk images are for server hosts where you have a data center full of similar hardware, not home users where you have one part that is compatible. And you have no idea until you need it.

I admit, I hate incremental backups, but for a home system, it's silly to do more. Personally, I don't even do that. I grab my personal data and nothing else, the OS can be reinstalled in minutes, games can be re-downloaded and I can put my data back and be up and running faster than you could restore a backup. Better still, I can do most backups in minutes as they only require a few gigs and more importantly, I know they will work. Even if I change the OS.
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Offline Coreda

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Re: ? how much in7ernet sp3ed do we actually need ?
« Reply #24 on: Sun, 14 August 2022, 14:26:41 »
I think your ISP and your host would have something to say about that.

By remote NAS I was meaning one run by oneself at another remote location, following on from iMav's example.

If the ISPs in France offering 8Gbps/1Gbps balks at use cases appropriate for that speed it seems a bit pointless to even have the plans and infrastructure in place :p I'd be more interested in anecdotes from such customers though.

Besides the amount of power and heat 10+Gbit requires/puts out...

There are a decent number of home users who've begun running SFP+ hardware in the past few years who've reported temps and it's manageable, from NICs to switches. Maybe if one were running 10Gbase-T it'd be more a concern, which also consumes more power. SFP+ hardware has become fairly affordable, compared to even 2.5/5GbE, in part from the availability of used hardware but also even some new managed switches.


And there's no need for regular, full disk backups anyhow, that's just an abuse of resources (not to mention risky).
I can't tell you how many full disk image backups I've seen that didn't boot. Sure, they (usually) work on the same system using the same parts, but what happens when a drive fails and you buy a bigger, faster one, or change formats (sata to nvme), or heaven forbid you changed the motherboard.

I've restored from my backups a number of times that have saved me from things (including ****ty Windows updates) that I strongly disagree about their usefulness. I verify all my backups and have never had an issue in years across multiple systems.

Wrt to data I keep the OS on a separate drive and separately back up data. Restoring one makes no difference on the other and I can also just transfer individual files as I like with the backup mounted. It provides versioning and preserves the original timestamps and attributes.

I've already migrated data to different drives and capacities before and don't use cloning for that since it's not recommended. Instead I robocopy everything then binary compare. The only time I change a motherboard is for a completely new system at which point I make a separate OS backup entirely.
« Last Edit: Sun, 14 August 2022, 14:31:52 by Coreda »

Offline Leslieann

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Re: ? how much in7ernet sp3ed do we actually need ?
« Reply #25 on: Sun, 14 August 2022, 20:23:50 »
By remote NAS I was meaning one run by oneself at another remote location, following on from iMav's example.
Imav is a special use case.
Besides the fact that most people couldn't do what he's doing, nor do they have a use for it, notice that he only has gigabit at home. That tells me he's probably not really stressing that 2.5 internet and could get away just fine with a slower speed. 

Where he's getting the most from that is on the upload side.
Most connections, including his are asymmetrical, faster download than upload. He'd only lose a little speed going down to a symmetrical gigabit connection (1gig up, 1gig down) as proven by the 1226 speed on his upload speed.


If the ISPs in France offering 8Gbps/1Gbps balks at use cases appropriate for that speed it seems a bit pointless to even have the plans and infrastructure in place :p I'd be more interested in anecdotes from such customers though.
It is pointless.
There's very little you can do with 1Gbit connection (or an 8Gbit) that I can't do with a 300Mbit connection, other than super fast upload or download. The internet is built for slower speeds in mind in order to reach the most people.

Not to mention the fact that servers handle multiple people so you only get a fraction of the connection, streaming is a set bit rate (and almost always throttled to avoid piracy), gaming is focused on ping and lowest common denominator in order to reach the most people.  Basically, the only legal use that can take advantage is quite limited because there's just simply so little capability on server side to take advantage of it and that is by design because they don't want to have to support it (bandwidth and storage is expensive). For most people, unless you're uploading to Youtube/Tik Tock there's little sense. Even remote archiving is easily done at slower speeds, like with Imav since it can sync while you sleep. I suspect he may be using it as a VPN and not as a sync tool, but he could and it would work just as fast but with a slower connection however it would however require file storage at each end (personally I prefer this as it serves as a backup as well).

These speeds are a marketing ploy.
Provided you have a fast enough connection, Google isn't going to load faster, your videos will not play faster, your game will not have a higher FPS. They don't care if it's useful, they only care about getting your money and most people don't have enough of an understanding of computers, let alone how the internet actually works. They just see bigger/faster/shiny.



There are a decent number of home users who've begun running SFP+ hardware in the past few years who've reported temps and it's manageable, from NICs to switches. Maybe if one were running 10Gbase-T it'd be more a concern, which also consumes more power. SFP+ hardware has become fairly affordable, compared to even 2.5/5GbE, in part from the availability of used hardware but also even some new
managed switches.
I wasn't referring to heat at your home,
One or two is one thing, not a facility full of it, some 10Gbit switches are 200 watts alone, multiply that by 100 for a host and it becomes a considerable amount of heat to deal with. If they don't need it, they'd rather not deal with it. Heat is a major issue at hosts and the fast connection just isn't as necessary as people think and when it is needed, it's used to serve multiple people, not just a super fast connection to a single person.

Yes, home users are using it for their home networks, I have some 2.5 and SFP, that doesn't mean I need to stream 8k from my home server to my cell phone in the field or send a 3TB file to my office. Most people with lots of data want fast ethernet, they don't need fast internet. Frankly, most people with a connection over 100Mbit have more bandwidth than they need on the download side. Upload, being asymmetrical and most are well under 20Mbit could still be better, but again, most people simply are not uploading enough to really matter anyhow.


I've restored from my backups a number of times that have saved me from things (including ****ty Windows updates) that I strongly disagree about their usefulness. I verify all my backups and have never had an issue in years across multiple systems.
Everyone who believes in images says that, it's always worked for them.
Many of us against them used to say the same thing, care to guess what changed?

Even when an image works there's a whole lot of reasons you really shouldn't, particularly on a desktop.
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Online tp4tissue

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Re: ? how much in7ernet sp3ed do we actually need ?
« Reply #26 on: Sun, 14 August 2022, 20:54:00 »
I don't think most people even need fast ethernet,

A single 2.5g outside connection to a file server is faster than any drive will ever write,  we'll probably never need   2.5g for internal distribution.. 

We're at a physical limit in terms of useful consumption (bandwidth) for Hughmahns. 


8K120  offsite gaming,  I guess if this ever became a "THING",  we could saturate 2.5g

Offline Coreda

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Re: ? how much in7ernet sp3ed do we actually need ?
« Reply #27 on: Mon, 15 August 2022, 03:08:38 »
Imav is a special use case. Besides the fact that most people couldn't do what he's doing, nor do they have a use for it, notice that he only has gigabit at home.

It wasn't about most people though nor even specifically iMav since I've seen such setups by users in places where the speeds are high enough and affordable that it's feasible, usually housed by family/friends. No third-party host as some theorectical bottleneck and with infrastructure that supports it. There are specific scenarios where higher speeds would be beneficial and not (currently) an average use case.

What would be beneficial for most users though is if we could improve the situation where tons of people aren't putting up with subpar internet speeds and Gigabit is at least normalized, so the baseline for what is considered normal use cases can also shift. Otherwise such users don't get as much choice as to what they can take advantage of.

Everyone who believes in images says that, it's always worked for them. Many of us against them used to say the same thing, care to guess what changed?

I mean, it depends what was planned for and understood, no? If one thought the backups would be fine but didn't test them live until it mattered, if the backups become corrupted and there are no other usable copies (which can occur with any backup type tbh), if one hadn't read about the downsides to cloning to different types of drives, etc.

I'm taking enough steps to my process and understand various of the pitfalls that it's been a method that's been successful each time I've used or needed them for the past decade, whether using the image as-is or mounting it for file transfer. If someone were doing things differently and you had no control over it I could understand how one might build a bad impression.

There's also software that does both incremental and differential backups so one isn't having to expend space on full backups each run anyway. Then one obviously has to consider the pros and cons of either of those two methods as well.

A single 2.5g outside connection to a file server is faster than any drive will ever write,  we'll probably never need   2.5g for internal distribution.

For single HDDs, true, though a NAS with RAID can reach much higher speeds than any single drive per se but depends on the configuration. I've seen some people use them this way for locally running games over the network with iSCSI spanned across the RAID for greater read/write speed using HDDs instead of SSDs, which also allows for far more games to be always installed.
« Last Edit: Mon, 15 August 2022, 03:10:45 by Coreda »

Offline iMav

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Re: ? how much in7ernet sp3ed do we actually need ?
« Reply #28 on: Mon, 15 August 2022, 08:04:54 »
Imav is a special use case.
Besides the fact that most people couldn't do what he's doing, nor do they have a use for it, notice that he only has gigabit at home. That tells me he's probably not really stressing that 2.5 internet and could get away just fine with a slower speed.

Well, I did say MOSTLY 1Gb at home.  :)  The main switch connects to the ISP equipment via 10Gb...and I've got a couple 2.5Gb connections...but your point is well taken.  My ISP does the 2x download / 1x upload...so 2.5Gb/1.25Gb service is the most fitting for my use case.

Offline iMav

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Re: ? how much in7ernet sp3ed do we actually need ?
« Reply #29 on: Mon, 15 August 2022, 09:24:28 »
Demand is definitely up for faster upload speeds...certainly not gigabit needed, but with content creators upload vids, streaming, etc...it needs to be better than, say, legacy DOCSIS.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: ? how much in7ernet sp3ed do we actually need ?
« Reply #30 on: Mon, 15 August 2022, 11:27:02 »
I don't think most people even need fast ethernet,
A single 2.5g outside connection to a file server is faster than any drive will ever write,  we'll probably never need   2.5g for internal distribution.. 
We're at a physical limit in terms of useful consumption (bandwidth) for Hughmahns. 
Never say never but not any time soon and our robot overlords may need more.
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: ? how much in7ernet sp3ed do we actually need ?
« Reply #31 on: Mon, 15 August 2022, 12:06:49 »
It wasn't about most people though nor even specifically iMav since I've seen such setups by users in places where the speeds are high enough and affordable that it's feasible, usually housed by family/friends. No third-party host as some theorectical bottleneck and with infrastructure that supports it. There are specific scenarios where higher speeds would be beneficial and not (currently) an average use case.

It's not theoretical, the bottlenecks are there you just haven't reached saturation yet.
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: ? how much in7ernet sp3ed do we actually need ?
« Reply #32 on: Mon, 15 August 2022, 18:07:04 »
By the way,
I'm not implying we shouldn't push for faster, we need to constantly push it because something will fill find a way to take advantage of it.  I'm just saying you probably don't need it to be anywhere near as fast as you think and you're getting massively diminishing returns on it the faster you go.

On the other hand if I could get gigabit for a decent rate, of course I'd jump on it, unfortunately it would almost double what I currently pay which is already not exactly cheap.
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Offline SBJ

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Re: ? how much in7ernet sp3ed do we actually need ?
« Reply #33 on: Tue, 16 August 2022, 01:36:18 »
ALL of it, okay tp? I need ALL of it.
Currently using 1/1gbit fiber, and I really love it. There's almost no difference in price between the tiers so I took the biggest damn one.

Offline phinix

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Re: ? how much in7ernet sp3ed do we actually need ?
« Reply #34 on: Tue, 16 August 2022, 03:38:09 »
I have 200Mbits virgin in uk (20 up). But I think I could do with 100Mbits, or even less.
However, I really like that we are trying to push it even further, its a good thing to expand current boundaries.
We may need it in the future, who knows. Imagine having 1Tbit in every home in 10 years... :eek:
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Re: ? how much in7ernet sp3ed do we actually need ?
« Reply #35 on: Tue, 16 August 2022, 09:36:07 »
ALL of it, okay tp? I need ALL of it.
Currently using 1/1gbit fiber, and I really love it. There's almost no difference in price between the tiers so I took the biggest damn one.

2 much p0wr for 1 person to handle.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: ? how much in7ernet sp3ed do we actually need ?
« Reply #36 on: Tue, 16 August 2022, 15:06:56 »
If nothing else this thread got me to finally order the last part I needed for 2.5gbit ethernet.

I've had parts sitting on a shelf for almost a year, having an ITX system sort of limits the options.
My desktop has no spare slots, I can't use the spare NVME slot and an adapter (occupied), using the mini-pcie meant using two adapters to connect a card and giving up bluetooth/wifi, using a card at all meant ditching at least one gpu fan or placing it outside the box, using USB means possible lag. I finally just bit the bullet and went Type-C adapter, they're cheap. If it lags I'll just setup a secondary lan for 2.5Gbit file sharing and keep the Gbit connection for everything else.
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Re: ? how much in7ernet sp3ed do we actually need ?
« Reply #37 on: Tue, 16 August 2022, 15:17:45 »
usb3.0 wouldn't handle 2.5gbe ?

are the usb c adapters pcie based instead of usb?

Offline Leslieann

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Re: ? how much in7ernet sp3ed do we actually need ?
« Reply #38 on: Wed, 17 August 2022, 12:29:59 »
Pretty sure they all go through the USB subsystem if it goes through a port.

(per Wikipedia)
USB 3.1 can handle 5Gbit for Gen 1 and 10Gbit for Gen 2 with a 3% overhead. Actual throughput is closer to 4/8Gbit.
USB 3.0 will peak at about 5Gbit, however the overhead can be as high as 20%, throughput is way lower.

From that you now have to now add in the ethernet and usb to ethernet conversion...
I've seen tests of USB nics hitting 2.2Gbit on a 2.5Gbit nic and 3.5 on a 5Gbit nic,  but that's from memory and it's been a while so take those numbers with a grain of salt. I believe a  2.5Gbit connection on USB 3.0 drops to around 1.5 to 1.7, while that's still a nice jump from Gigabit you have to remember this would be on an older system, meaning the percentage of CPU required to push this would be even higher than the newer system with a  more efficient USB.
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Offline SBJ

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Re: ? how much in7ernet sp3ed do we actually need ?
« Reply #39 on: Wed, 17 August 2022, 13:06:01 »
ALL of it, okay tp? I need ALL of it.
Currently using 1/1gbit fiber, and I really love it. There's almost no difference in price between the tiers so I took the biggest damn one.

2 much p0wr for 1 person to handle.

I will say, though, that the only place I can really saturate the line is through Steam.
Boy do they have some hefty servers.

I do host a few things, like game servers for friends, websites and the like.

Other than that, as I said, too little price difference between the tiers where I'm currently getting fiber, so.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: ? how much in7ernet sp3ed do we actually need ?
« Reply #40 on: Wed, 17 August 2022, 22:01:36 »
Steam has local servers.
So does Google, Netflix, Youtube and a few others.

Pretty much anyone who cell companies offer "free" unlimited streaming for, means they have localized servers.
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