Author Topic: [IC] F62+F77! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards  (Read 375145 times)

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Offline Melvang

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Re: [IC] Brand New F62 Kishsaver / F77 Industrial Model F's made this year
« Reply #100 on: Wed, 22 July 2015, 22:04:28 »
http://www.adv-mfg-svc.com/

I personally haven't done business with them, but Mkawa talks good about their work.  And they are located less than an hour from me by car.

I have spoke with them a couple times for some work and they have always been very helpful and great people to chat with about the trade.
OG Kishsaver, Razer Orbweaver clears and reds with blue LEDs, and Razer Naga Epic.   "Great minds crawl in the same sewer"  Uncle Rich

Offline kirkvomit

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Re: [IC] Brand New F62 Kishsaver / F77 Industrial Model F's made this year
« Reply #101 on: Sat, 25 July 2015, 06:47:23 »
Yes, that thread left off a year ago with "I have some arm ideas" and references a dead repo. It's not listed as an active project on kiibohd.com.

Look, I really like TMK, but not enough to fork it. Xwhatsit's solution is good. Is there something in TMK that you feel like the xwhatsit firmware needs? It would probably be easier to port the feature that way, rather than the other way around.

I'm not familiar with xwhatsit, does it have any website or repo? How many fn layers does it support?
TMK have some features that I really like:
for example double-tap FN key, when I double tap shift key all letters become upper case (so I don't need capslock key any more and replaced it with ctrl key)
also I'm using space FN feature - when I press and hold space it switches layer where I have F keys on the numeric row and arrow keys instead of J, I, K, L.

Is it possible to program keyboard this way with xwhatsit?

Offline Melvang

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Re: [IC] Brand New F62 Kishsaver / F77 Industrial Model F's made this year
« Reply #102 on: Sat, 25 July 2015, 15:57:22 »
Yes, that thread left off a year ago with "I have some arm ideas" and references a dead repo. It's not listed as an active project on kiibohd.com.

Look, I really like TMK, but not enough to fork it. Xwhatsit's solution is good. Is there something in TMK that you feel like the xwhatsit firmware needs? It would probably be easier to port the feature that way, rather than the other way around.

I'm not familiar with xwhatsit, does it have any website or repo? How many fn layers does it support?
TMK have some features that I really like:
for example double-tap FN key, when I double tap shift key all letters become upper case (so I don't need capslock key any more and replaced it with ctrl key)
also I'm using space FN feature - when I press and hold space it switches layer where I have F keys on the numeric row and arrow keys instead of J, I, K, L.

Is it possible to program keyboard this way with xwhatsit?

Xwhatsit only supports 9 layers max but only 3 function keys iirc, and to my knowledge no double tap or dual role keys.  Again I may be wrong here, I haven't needed that stuff with my AT so I haven't looked.
OG Kishsaver, Razer Orbweaver clears and reds with blue LEDs, and Razer Naga Epic.   "Great minds crawl in the same sewer"  Uncle Rich

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [IC] Brand New F62 Kishsaver / F77 Industrial Model F's made this year
« Reply #103 on: Wed, 29 July 2015, 22:43:21 »
I am trying to get a count of the HHKB style Kishsaver interest.  We are definitely going forward with the HHKB style right shift option - I just need a general idea of how many of those PCBs to make.

Please let me know if you are interested in the HHKB style split right shift option with the caps lock style key and a regular 1u key replacing the larger right shift on the new F62 Kishsavers?  So far about 5 of you have expressed interest in the Google docs form.  I will be ordering all of these next week along with the PCB prototypes.  All the prototypes, plus all the split right shift F62s, will have separate controllers like the xtant PCB in order to keep costs reasonable.  orihalcon sells the separate controllers for about $38 or so, and I have some extras too.  I will order a few extra F62 split right shift PCBs to anticipate further interest.

Some good news:  with the current level of interest (about 86 keyboards reserved so far) it looks like you can order either one of these for $325 if you bring your own keycaps ($350 if you want Unicomps).

Would anyone be interested in paying $40 for an original Model M keyboard to share caps with (you would receive the Model M keyboard too!), or would you prefer bring your own caps / the $25 or $30 unicomp caps with custom printed F1, F2, etc. like on the original Kishsavers/4704s?  I may be able to locate 10 or 20 Model M's at that bulk price.

Offline Air tree

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Re: [IC] Brand New F62 Kishsaver / F77 Industrial Model F's made this year
« Reply #104 on: Wed, 29 July 2015, 23:00:12 »
I'm interested in the HHKB style split shift, but can we get the right sized shifts for that size?

If not, I'm leaning towards the classic layout.


And I'm pretty down to bring my own caps, but one question, how is the quality of Unicomps caps compared to the models M's? If Unicomps are less than nice, I'll be down for the model M option at $40...

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [IC] Brand New F62 Kishsaver / F77 Industrial Model F's made this year
« Reply #105 on: Wed, 29 July 2015, 23:05:03 »
Air tree - it will look like a caps lock key with the step and a regular sized Model M key in place of the large right shift key.  I think Unicomp can print "shift" on those keys.  Unicomp does not sell the non-stepped caps lock width key unless you buy a full Japanese key set to my knowledge.


Offline FrostyToast

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Re: [IC] Brand New F62 Kishsaver / F77 Industrial Model F's made this year
« Reply #106 on: Wed, 29 July 2015, 23:09:12 »
Assuming it's true that the japanese set has a full touch caps lock set that I can use which Unicomp can make I'm in for HHKB layout.
Although it does also depend on the final price difference too.
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Offline Ellipse

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Re: [IC] Brand New F62 Kishsaver / F77 Industrial Model F's made this year
« Reply #107 on: Wed, 29 July 2015, 23:22:32 »
Frosty - I expect to price each keyboard at $325 not counting the keys (just around my initial $350 estimate).  So you can order any keys you'd like through unicomp (I will see if I can order them in bulk for a better price).

Not sure what Unicomp charges for the special key set.

Offline FrostyToast

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Re: [IC] Brand New F62 Kishsaver / F77 Industrial Model F's made this year
« Reply #108 on: Thu, 30 July 2015, 00:25:16 »
Frosty - I expect to price each keyboard at $325 not counting the keys (just around my initial $350 estimate).  So you can order any keys you'd like through unicomp (I will see if I can order them in bulk for a better price).

Not sure what Unicomp charges for the special key set.

My limit is at around $380 USD. Assuming that the Canadian dollar doesn't plummet again.
$325 is a great price and for that I would definitely be down.  :thumb:
Quote from: elton5354
I don't need anymore keyboards

Offline azhdar

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Re: [IC] Brand New F62 Kishsaver / F77 Industrial Model F's made this year
« Reply #109 on: Thu, 30 July 2015, 01:42:40 »
Interested in a split Right Shift for F62. Would prefer if we could get a full touch Rshift though.
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Offline Vizir

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Re: [IC] Brand New F62 Kishsaver / F77 Industrial Model F's made this year
« Reply #110 on: Thu, 30 July 2015, 13:18:11 »
I'm down for HHKB style. Would be interested in a quote for bulk keys from unicomp. Then decide if I will source them another way.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [IC] Brand New F62 Kishsaver / F77 Industrial Model F's made this year
« Reply #111 on: Sun, 02 August 2015, 17:03:45 »
Anyone interested in an F77 HHKB style split right shift key?  Split with a caps lock style key on the left barrel and a regular 1u key on the right barrel of the right shift key.

Everyone interested would most likely just have to split about $100 in extra tooling costs plus a little extra for the PCB. The more ways it is split, the lower the cost of the F77 HHKB style split right shift option.  So far I have heard about 3 people interested (a $33 or so split each way, plus marginal PCB costs).

Offline romevi

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Re: [IC] Brand New F62 Kishsaver / F77 Industrial Model F's made this year
« Reply #112 on: Sun, 02 August 2015, 18:59:36 »
That'd be neat.

Offline Karura

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Re: [IC] Brand New F62 Kishsaver / F77 Industrial Model F's made this year
« Reply #113 on: Mon, 03 August 2015, 17:56:23 »
I'd be interested in the HHKB split shift + 1u Fn, but it would be better if there was tooling for the keycaps as well.

"Remember boys, raccoon cold... don't worry, raccoon will find cave." -Sent

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [IC] Brand New F62 Kishsaver / F77 Industrial Model F's made this year
« Reply #114 on: Fri, 07 August 2015, 11:46:30 »
Does anyone want to use their own xwhatsit controller or buy a separate controller themselves for their F77 or F62?  I am ordering the prototype quantity PCBs this Sunday evening (all of which require soldering a controller to the capacitive PCB).  You would probably save just $10 or so on the order because the prototype boards are more expensive in low quantities.  The keyboards will come standard with a USB controller included.

The HHKB style split right shift PCBs will all require separate controllers given their lower quantities.

Karura - one of the DT members rsbseb announced his plans for custom tooled keycaps which would go great with this project. 

Offline scubaste

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Re: [IC] Brand New F62 Kishsaver / F77 Industrial Model F's made this year
« Reply #115 on: Fri, 07 August 2015, 12:26:52 »
I am relatively certain that I will be ordering one in the HHKB layout variety.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [IC] Brand New F62 Kishsaver / F77 Industrial Model F's made this year
« Reply #116 on: Wed, 12 August 2015, 06:35:21 »
An update:  Prototype PCBs have been ordered! 

Offline geniekid

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Re: [IC] Brand New F62 Kishsaver / F77 Industrial Model F's made this year
« Reply #117 on: Wed, 12 August 2015, 13:45:13 »
An update:  Prototype PCBs have been ordered!

 :thumb:

Offline darkspider

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Re: [IC] Brand New F62 Kishsaver / F77 Industrial Model F's made this year
« Reply #118 on: Thu, 13 August 2015, 00:46:14 »
I'm a newbie about keyboards but I got interested in this project.
I hope these great boards will be shipped worldwide(I live in Japan).
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Brand New F62 Kishsaver / F77 Industrial Model F's made this year

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [IC] Brand New F62 Kishsaver / F77 Industrial Model F's made this year
« Reply #119 on: Thu, 13 August 2015, 08:25:55 »
Yes darkspider they will ship worldwide!  I am also open to proxy shipping a bunch of these at once to one person in a given country and then they ship locally, to save on shipping cost.  Please sign the Google docs form in the first post if you are interested!  We are a handful of reservations away from 100!

Offline darkspider

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Re: [IC] Brand New F62 Kishsaver / F77 Industrial Model F's made this year
« Reply #120 on: Thu, 13 August 2015, 08:35:01 »
I'm glad to hear that :-)
So, I registered!
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Brand New F62 Kishsaver / F77 Industrial Model F's made this year

Offline Dodgy

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Re: [IC] Brand New F62 Kishsaver / F77 Industrial Model F's made this year
« Reply #121 on: Tue, 18 August 2015, 11:50:41 »
Hope this comes through! Registered :thumb:
Hi, what's your favorite color?
I'm making keycaps, take a look if you give a damn.
Sale Thread

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [IC] Brand New F62 Kishsaver / F77 Industrial Model F's made this year
« Reply #122 on: Fri, 21 August 2015, 21:13:24 »
Thanks Dodgy - it looks like you registered the 100th keyboard! 

As an update, prototype PCBs should arrive on Monday! And the prototype cases should arrive in 2-3 weeks.

Offline iamtootallforthis

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Re: [IC] Brand New F62 Kishsaver / F77 Industrial Model F's made this year
« Reply #123 on: Fri, 21 August 2015, 22:23:09 »
I really want to join in but I'm hesitant as funds are tight. Also I can't decide between the F62 or F77 and the HHKB option throws a wrench in everything. I'll probably be in though.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [IC] Brand New F62 Kishsaver / F77 Industrial Model F's made this year
« Reply #124 on: Sat, 22 August 2015, 11:42:12 »
Great iamtootallforthis.  I see you are located in NY/NJ per your profile - feel free to do a local pickup in Manhattan to save $25 shipping on each keyboard.

Offline iamtootallforthis

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Re: [IC] Brand New F62 Kishsaver / F77 Industrial Model F's made this year
« Reply #125 on: Sat, 22 August 2015, 16:44:37 »
Great iamtootallforthis.  I see you are located in NY/NJ per your profile - feel free to do a local pickup in Manhattan to save $25 shipping on each keyboard.

Now it's almost a guarantee!

Offline darkspider

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Re: [IC] Brand New F62 Kishsaver / F77 Industrial Model F's made this year
« Reply #126 on: Sat, 22 August 2015, 17:11:38 »
Thanks Dodgy - it looks like you registered the 100th keyboard! 

As an update, prototype PCBs should arrive on Monday! And the prototype cases should arrive in 2-3 weeks.

wow, great! I want to know how that prototype is.
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Brand New F62 Kishsaver / F77 Industrial Model F's made this year

Offline Karura

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Re: [IC] Brand New F62 Kishsaver / F77 Industrial Model F's made this year
« Reply #127 on: Sat, 22 August 2015, 20:47:16 »
I'm quite excited about the prototype.

What about the other components? It won't be cheap to make, but are there currently specsheets sent out and plans?

"Remember boys, raccoon cold... don't worry, raccoon will find cave." -Sent

Offline Air tree

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Re: [IC] Brand New F62 Kishsaver / F77 Industrial Model F's made this year
« Reply #128 on: Sat, 22 August 2015, 21:13:13 »
Once the prototype is done, would you consider having it reviewed? Maybe by some trusted people who have spent some time with the original Kishsaver for a while? Just for second opinions and all.  :)


Just a thought.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [IC] Brand New F62 Kishsaver / F77 Industrial Model F's made this year
« Reply #129 on: Sat, 22 August 2015, 22:28:33 »
Karura - yep everything was sent out and quoted.  It is a matter now of finishing the order of prototype parts.  The price of $325 "bring your own keys" or $350 with regular Unicomp keys has been finalized.  There will also be options to order whatever custom keys Unicomp has in stock e.g. HHKB style Backspace and Right shift, number keys with front printed Function notations, etc. once a prototype has been fully assembled and tested.

Air tree - maybe you can review it if you are in NYC in a month or so?  I plan on a meetup where you can see and test the prototypes during the month or so that orders will be accepted.  I will also post detailed typing and sound comparisons with some of my original Model F keyboards (122, 77, 107, PC AT).  Bring your own keyboards to compare!

Offline Techno Trousers

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Re: [IC] Brand New F62 Kishsaver / F77 Industrial Model F's made this year
« Reply #130 on: Sat, 22 August 2015, 23:10:16 »
I live about as far as you can get from NYC in the continental U.S., but I'm really looking forward to hearing everyone's impressions!

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [IC] Brand New F62 Kishsaver / F77 Industrial Model F's made this year
« Reply #131 on: Mon, 24 August 2015, 22:37:53 »
Look what arrived in the mail today from China :)

Some truly nice PCB design work by one of the senior GH/DT contributors who has been very helpful throughout the PCB design process! I could not have done this nearly as well as he did!

Interestingly the standard unaltered copper color used today for the traces (as well as the PCB material) is a lot less dark than what was used in the mid to late 80s but reminds me of some of the very early beamspring PCBs, at least when back illuminated.

It is my understanding that the tradeoff to getting a darker copper color is you would need to change the solder mask from the current clear solder mask to dark brown, but then you would lose the nice transparent effect where you can see the back side column traces through the PCB (another more expensive PCB shop may be able to do custom copper and PCB colors but that is out of budget).

A note - the bottom inner assembly pictured with the new PCBs is from an original F77 - the prototypes have not yet gone into production.

109408-0

109410-1

109412-2

109414-3
« Last Edit: Mon, 24 August 2015, 22:41:08 by Ellipse »

Offline darkspider

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Re: [IC] Brand New F62 Kishsaver / F77 Industrial Model F's made this year
« Reply #132 on: Mon, 24 August 2015, 23:59:58 »
Although I don't know what does the copper color means in real use, the PCBs look very beautiful for me.
I also must appreciate the man who you says helped you to design the PCBs, thank you.
You say cases will come in just few weeks. I can't wait it and its reviews.
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Brand New F62 Kishsaver / F77 Industrial Model F's made this year

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [IC] Brand New F62 Kishsaver / F77 Industrial Model F's made this year
« Reply #133 on: Tue, 25 August 2015, 20:23:07 »
Success!  I soldered the controllers tonight and both the F77 and F62 PCBs are working so far.  I made some extra prototype PCBs in case anyone wanted to use one of their own xwhatsit controllers.

I have ordered the CNC milled and powdercoated F77 and F62 case prototypes; they should go into production this week or next week.

Below is the EPS foam (Styrofoam) design for packing each keyboard, similar to the design of the original foam from my NIB F77 and made of the same material.  The design is the same for the top and bottom piece to save on tooling costs.  Extra foam and double walled custom fit boxes will be available for order if you wanted one for your original F62 Kishsaver.

109500-0
« Last Edit: Tue, 25 August 2015, 21:01:43 by Ellipse »

Offline geniekid

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Re: [IC] Brand New F62 Kishsaver / F77 Industrial Model F's made this year
« Reply #134 on: Tue, 25 August 2015, 21:15:56 »
Nice job Ellipse!

So the next step is case, then...plates?  Barrels and flippers?  I'm very excited.

Offline Air tree

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Re: [IC] Brand New F62 Kishsaver / F77 Industrial Model F's made this year
« Reply #135 on: Tue, 25 August 2015, 21:28:23 »
Very exited for this to be put all together!

Oddly enough, this will be my first board with BS, let alone capacitive BS.  :))

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [IC] Brand New F62 Kishsaver / F77 Industrial Model F's made this year
« Reply #136 on: Tue, 25 August 2015, 21:46:50 »
Yep geniekid the other prototype parts should go into production in a week or two - meaning the metal case and the inner assembly parts including the barrels, springs and flippers. 

The bottleneck in the prototype process will probably be the barrel and flipper tooling, which could take a few weeks or longer. 

But if all goes well I could be opening up orders in a month or two.  The biggest question mark at this point is the suitability of the carbon infused resin in the flippers to carry the capacitive charge reliably, but I can always change the material if the sample flippers are no good.

So far we are at 110 preorders!

Offline Techno Trousers

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Re: [IC] Brand New F62 Kishsaver / F77 Industrial Model F's made this year
« Reply #137 on: Tue, 25 August 2015, 21:54:20 »
Ooh, any estimate on the cost of an extra foam+box for an original kishsaver?

I'm glad to see everything is coming along so nicely!

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [IC] Brand New F62 Kishsaver / F77 Industrial Model F's made this year
« Reply #138 on: Tue, 25 August 2015, 22:18:37 »
Yes Techno - with an estimated production volume of 100+ foam cases and custom double walled boxes, it should be ~$25 or less for the extra CNC milled EPS foam and box. 

Offline Techno Trousers

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Re: [IC] Brand New F62 Kishsaver / F77 Industrial Model F's made this year
« Reply #139 on: Tue, 25 August 2015, 23:11:08 »
Nice! I'm definitely going to be picking up an extra box and foam in that case.

It's a little off topic for this thread, but have you considered producing similar foam and boxes for 101 Model Ms and SSKs? I'd think there should be a decent market for that among collectors.

Offline azhdar

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Re: [IC] Brand New F62 Kishsaver / F77 Industrial Model F's made this year
« Reply #140 on: Wed, 26 August 2015, 01:10:53 »
Nice updates, still looking forward to buy a Kish.
Azerty Propagandiste

Offline darkspider

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Re: [IC] Brand New F62 Kishsaver / F77 Industrial Model F's made this year
« Reply #141 on: Wed, 26 August 2015, 03:33:44 »
BTW, which model is more popular than the other?
I prefer F61 to F77 because it'll save my desk space a lot.
But considering real use, I think I should buy both.
F77's numpad and arrow keys are also attractive.
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Brand New F62 Kishsaver / F77 Industrial Model F's made this year

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [IC] Brand New F62 Kishsaver / F77 Industrial Model F's made this year
« Reply #142 on: Wed, 26 August 2015, 08:45:04 »
Yes please buy both :)

The F62s have more preorders than the F77s.  The F77 is less than 3 inches wider than the F62.

Offline darkspider

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Re: [IC] Brand New F62 Kishsaver / F77 Industrial Model F's made this year
« Reply #143 on: Wed, 26 August 2015, 09:06:20 »
hmm, it needs time to decide. I'm also considering that I buy 2 F62s, one to use and the other to stock.
Anyway, thank you for the information.
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Brand New F62 Kishsaver / F77 Industrial Model F's made this year

Offline KatzenKinder

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Re: [IC] Brand New F62 Kishsaver / F77 Industrial Model F's made this year
« Reply #144 on: Wed, 26 August 2015, 16:08:11 »
Wallet so painful T^T

Offline azhdar

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Re: [IC] Brand New F62 Kishsaver / F77 Industrial Model F's made this year
« Reply #145 on: Wed, 26 August 2015, 16:09:42 »
Wallet so painful T^T

End his misery and execute him.
Azerty Propagandiste

Offline Techno Trousers

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Re: [IC] Brand New F62 Kishsaver / F77 Industrial Model F's made this year
« Reply #146 on: Wed, 26 August 2015, 19:46:54 »
Wallet so painful T^T
At least you can justify this as a unique opportunity, and not yet another overpriced Korean custom! But my wallet will need recovery time too.

Offline RoastPotatoes

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Re: [IC] Brand New F62 Kishsaver / F77 Industrial Model F's made this year
« Reply #147 on: Wed, 26 August 2015, 22:52:52 »
Is there going to be a design on the box?

Offline Ellipse

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  • Location: New York
    • Brand New Model F Keyboards
Re: [IC] Brand New F62 Kishsaver / F77 Industrial Model F's made this year
« Reply #148 on: Wed, 26 August 2015, 22:58:22 »
Nope no printed design or logos will be used anywhere.  Instead I upgraded the box to be sturdier double-walled cardboard.

If people want to submit their own logo designs freely I can consider them, but I would not want to consider anything that resembles the original logo.  The keyboard designs have become public domain but the logo is not!

Offline darkspider

  • Posts: 70
  • Location: Tokyo, Japan
Re: [IC] Brand New F62 Kishsaver / F77 Industrial Model F's made this year
« Reply #149 on: Thu, 27 August 2015, 00:00:56 »
no print is good.
IBM Model F AT         Model M silver label    Model M gray label    Majestouch 2 Ninja


Brand New F62 Kishsaver / F77 Industrial Model F's made this year