Author Topic: Dvorak endorsed by....god!  (Read 19614 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline appie747

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 81
Dvorak endorsed by....god!
« on: Mon, 14 February 2011, 16:30:32 »
Just stumbled upon a website:
http://yeswecandvorak.com/

He tells a true story about Dvorak but the rest of it is a bit strange...OMG!

Gregory GOrDon is his name, there are more websites to his name.

To promote Dvorak is a good thing, but with those kinds of friends you don't need enemies.

Anyone heard of this man??
Kinesis Freestyle Incline (work), Compaq MX 11800 (browns), AlphaGrip AG-5 FOR SALE! (home)

Offline Tony

  • Posts: 1189
Dvorak endorsed by....god!
« Reply #1 on: Mon, 14 February 2011, 17:36:26 »
Of course each person is a God. This God is powerful enough to choose keyboard layout He can type on :-)

Almighty Deity Tony uses Colemak 8-)

« Last Edit: Sun, 27 February 2011, 01:24:13 by Tony »
Keyboard: Filco MJ1 104 brown, Filco MJ2 87 brown, Compaq MX11800, Noppoo Choc Brown/Blue/Red, IBM Model M 1996, CMStorm Quickfire Rapid Black
Layout: Colemak experience, speed of 67wpm

Offline bugfix

  • Posts: 381
Dvorak endorsed by....god!
« Reply #2 on: Tue, 15 February 2011, 04:36:54 »
I'll just stick with QWERTZ.
*~Unicomp and Topre fan~*
I have:
Unicomp Customizer 105 German
Realforce 105GR
Unicomp Spacesaver German/Ansi hybrid(Current favorite)
I want:
Realforce 88GER
I used to have:
DAS Model S Ultimate EU (Sold)

Offline mr_a500

  • Posts: 401
Dvorak endorsed by....god!
« Reply #3 on: Tue, 15 February 2011, 09:54:53 »
God doesn't use a keyboard. He uses trans-dimensional multi-touch. It's the only way to avoid carpal omnipital syndrome.

Offline Dr.Pepper

  • Posts: 56
Dvorak endorsed by....god!
« Reply #4 on: Wed, 23 February 2011, 16:07:31 »
He sounds like someone who is sucking off of government cheese; also with to much time on their hands.
Keyboards:
Das Keyboard Ultimate ( Blue switches, blank )
IBM \'91 Model M White.

Wishlist:
Deck Legend Toxic ( With "Ghetto" Reds )
Poker Keyboard

Offline Proword

  • Posts: 237
  • Location: Perth, Western Australia
Dvorak endorsed by....god!
« Reply #5 on: Thu, 31 March 2011, 20:51:07 »
I came across him on the Gizmag website, for the Truly Ergonomic keyboard.

His grasp of reality seems to be only slightly less than his grasp of basic physics.


http://dynamicreflections.ning.com/profiles/blog/show?id=1591481%3ABlogPost%3A3704

In this blog he claims
By using minature flywheel generators, my design goal is to get get over 1kw hr of electricity from a keyboardist typing at 60 to 70 WPM after 15 minutes of typing. The fact of the matter is that when you use flywheel generators due to the establihed laws of physics as long as you keep inputting energy (finger taps) the generator will accelerate in speed.

As a fanatical follower of the Tour de France I know that during the final sprint of a stage some of the riders can produce over 1000 watts of energy (as measured at the pedal/crank) and can exceed 70 km/h.  So to produce 1 kw hour of electricity you would need to be riding a bicycle at about 65 km/h for an hour!!  Even these world class athletes can only produce that power for a matter of 10 seconds or less before they're exhausted.

I don't think typing at 70 wpm will generate 1 kw/h in 15 minutes.

Joe
Maltron 3D Dual Hand (x4)
Maltron 3D Single Hand (x2 - L & R)

Many people think their lifestyle comes at a cost - but they are quite cool with that as long as somebody ELSE pays it.

Offline Tony

  • Posts: 1189
Dvorak endorsed by....god!
« Reply #6 on: Mon, 04 April 2011, 06:51:06 »
Quote from: Proword;322422


I don't think typing at 70 wpm will generate 1 kw/h in 15 minutes.

Joe


1kwh per hour? It is approximately the energy of an iron while ironing clothes.

At that rate, the keyboard would be too hot for us to type on, it would be melted to a big pile of crap.

Or maybe he means this one.

Keyboard: Filco MJ1 104 brown, Filco MJ2 87 brown, Compaq MX11800, Noppoo Choc Brown/Blue/Red, IBM Model M 1996, CMStorm Quickfire Rapid Black
Layout: Colemak experience, speed of 67wpm

Offline Enzyme

  • Posts: 22
    • http://www.kdclan.net
Dvorak endorsed by....god!
« Reply #7 on: Mon, 04 April 2011, 07:21:32 »
Quote
Even these world class athletes can only produce that power for a matter of 10 seconds or less before they're exhausted.

hmmm,i can do 65kph on my full sus knobbly tyred mtb down the street for 5-10 mins and keep on at my regular 20 mph for at least 4-6 hours after that before being a lil exhausted.

im no bike pro and i wear no lycra.
figures need adjusting.

they can only produce that power while being totally exhausted for 10 seconds maybe.

to do it on a keyboard!!!  chunky scary fingers :S

Offline kill will

  • Posts: 231
    • http://www.jerseyshoredailies.com
Dvorak endorsed by....god!
« Reply #8 on: Mon, 04 April 2011, 08:16:22 »
bays theorem is endorsed by god.
I <3 BS

Offline Proword

  • Posts: 237
  • Location: Perth, Western Australia
Dvorak endorsed by....god!
« Reply #9 on: Tue, 05 April 2011, 19:41:32 »
Quote from: Enzyme;324238
hmmm,i can do 65kph on my full sus knobbly tyred mtb down the street for 5-10 mins and keep on at my regular 20 mph for at least 4-6 hours after that before being a lil exhausted.



These guys do it the other way round ... they ride 190 km at about 40 km/h THEN sprint at 70 km/h  :wink:

Joe
Maltron 3D Dual Hand (x4)
Maltron 3D Single Hand (x2 - L & R)

Many people think their lifestyle comes at a cost - but they are quite cool with that as long as somebody ELSE pays it.

Offline aming

  • Posts: 4
Dvorak endorsed by....god!
« Reply #10 on: Sun, 10 April 2011, 00:34:40 »
I am a Dvorak user too. I have reorder my MacBook's key to Dvorak layout:



It will be cool if can find the keycaps for the Cherry Keyboard
« Last Edit: Fri, 15 April 2011, 08:00:21 by aming »

Offline Oliver

  • Posts: 2
Dvorak endorsed by....god!
« Reply #11 on: Thu, 14 April 2011, 15:43:21 »
Quote from: bugfix;295297
I'll just stick with QWERTZ.
Yeah, for at least as long as I'm permitted to change the layout at school (or at work).

QWERTZ can be kind of a hassle when programming, tho... :wacko:

Offline Lightoftheworld

  • Posts: 2
Dvorak endorsed by....god!
« Reply #12 on: Thu, 16 February 2012, 00:02:33 »
Hey guys, Here is the Plan.  I am Gregory GOrDon about whom this thread is speaking.  I have already started to make a stir concerning the Dvorak Keyboard starting with a show out of Cleaveland Ohio, The Louie Free Show followed up by two appearances on The Howard Stern Show.  I am sure that many of you have your own story to share about the keyboard that you are using and  I have heard that there are other alternatives such as the Maltron, but I am promoting Dvorak because it comes in many languages.  I have used the Dvorak for thirty years beginning with a smith corona that I found.  I also had an IBM Selectric in Dvorak but let it go as it would not fit into my new room.  I was on the Government Cheese but have now decided to devote my time to making sure everyone on earth knows that they have an alternative keyboard arrangement choice to be found in their computers; Dvorak.  To my thinking we are just about at critical mass with the Dvorak thing and if each one of us does his or her part we can at the very least see to it that all keyboards made in America or sold here are dual labeled in both Qwerty and Dvorak.  To my understanding the patent for Kinesis Contoured keyboards has expired.  It would be great to see that as the new universal standard along with Dvorak.  But the thing that is going to get this over the top is the fact that Qwerty is now directly responsible for the demise of the western economy and health.  Carpal tunnel Syndrome is to blame and were we all using Contoured Dvorak keyboards the problem could be solved.  For more on my vow to see to it that Dvorak keyboard layouts become the norm see my new site.  http://carpalsurgery.com

Offline sordna

  • Posts: 2248
Dvorak endorsed by....god!
« Reply #13 on: Thu, 23 February 2012, 16:51:29 »
Welcome to GeekHack !
I too wish Dvorak became the default instead of QWERTY, but it's wishful thinking at this point. I also wish that the zig-zag staggered keyboard layout is abandoned once and for all. Keys should be one below the other in columnar fashion, like the numeric keypad is. Apart from the Kinesis, Maltron, Typematrix, Datadesk Smartboard, and a few others, a new keyboard called TrulyErgonomic has straight columns, which is a good thing. No Dvorak though, but at least that can be set through the operating system.

For now I'm sticking with Kinesis / Dvorak, it has been serving me well for several years now.
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline Proword

  • Posts: 237
  • Location: Perth, Western Australia
Dvorak endorsed by....god!
« Reply #14 on: Thu, 23 February 2012, 19:52:06 »
Quote from: Lightoftheworld;515823
... I have heard that there are other alternatives such as the Maltron, but I am promoting Dvorak because it comes in many languages...

If you care to look at the Maltron website you'll see that they offer (and have done for a considerable length of time) alternative key distributions, including QWERTY/AZERTY, Dvorak as well as the ergonomic Malt layout, in different languages.  eg the front page of their website

http://www.maltron.com/

tells of how they sold 350 keyboards to the Turkish government.

Quote
To my understanding the patent for Kinesis Contoured keyboards has expired. It would be great to see that as the new universal standard along with Dvorak
.

I'm not sure that there  actually IS a patent for Kinesis contoured keyboard, since it appears to be, at least in part, a copy of the Maltron form (which predates Kinesis by a decade or so (1977)).  So I'd suggest that your "universal standard" has been been around for a couple of decades.

I'd be interested to hear your explanation of the method you use to determine the merits of Dvorak over other layouts.

For my own purposes I believe that any method of determining the ergonomic "value" of a key distribution (as opposed the shape or form of the keyboard) should be:


Objective: It should exclude "personal" factors. Comfort of use, typing speed (which is really a function of expertise and practice, thus a result rather than a cause of ergonomics), strength/ dexterity of fingers (which will vary from person to person), distance fingers travel (a function of the size of the keyboard; using QWERTY on a laptop keyboard will give a different result to using a full sized "ergonomic" keyboard).

Definitive. There should be no ambivalence or looseness in expression to mislead the user. A single word or number is ideal.

Universal: It should be applicable to any keyboard (layout) which can be used for "touch typing". (This will ignore touch screens, stylus operated systems, smart phones, iPads, PDA's etc.)

Accessible: It should be practicable by a moderately skilled user. There should be no necessity to write complicated software, rewire a keyboard, swap key caps. Probably nothing needed more than a basic word processing package

Reproducible: Like any scientific test, it should be capable of being repeated any number of times, with similar results every time.

Inexpensive: Ideally, it should cost nothing.

And I certainly don't see that length of time using a specific key distribution is really of any value.  (I've been using Maltron since 1986, but that doesn't mean anything other than ... I've been using it since 1986.)
Joe
« Last Edit: Fri, 24 February 2012, 02:32:37 by Proword »
Maltron 3D Dual Hand (x4)
Maltron 3D Single Hand (x2 - L & R)

Many people think their lifestyle comes at a cost - but they are quite cool with that as long as somebody ELSE pays it.

Offline Findecanor

  • Posts: 5035
  • Location: Koriko
Dvorak endorsed by....god!
« Reply #15 on: Thu, 23 February 2012, 20:10:42 »
Learn about dividing your text into paragraphs, dude. Paragraphs!

Offline Findecanor

  • Posts: 5035
  • Location: Koriko
Dvorak endorsed by....god!
« Reply #16 on: Thu, 23 February 2012, 20:19:13 »
Quote from: Proword;523715
I'm not sure that there  actually IS a patent for Kinesis contoured keyboard, since it appears to be, at least in part, a copy of the Maltron form (which predates Kinesis by a decade or so (1977)).
Kinesis owns the US Design patent D370669 for the Kinesis Contoured. Note that a "Design Patent" is for the look of the keyboard, not how it works.
The word "patent" here is a bit of a misnomer and can be confusing. It is certainly not what I would call a "real" patent. Other words are used in other IP systems around the world.

Offline boli

  • Posts: 342
Dvorak endorsed by....god!
« Reply #17 on: Fri, 24 February 2012, 02:44:58 »
Nice thread resurrection. I think it should have been done on Easter Sunday. ;)

Seriously though, while I like straight column keyboard and alternative layout promotion this one seems a bit "black and white" or religious (pun intended). I do agree that staggered rows are an outdated relict from the past, and that the QWERTY layout has lots of room for improvement.

Like others mentioned there are a few other good alternatives. Sordna mentioned many of the available straight column keyboards, and there are various better alternatives to QWERTY - a few more in this post, and the ones thereafter. Which one is "right" for you is very subjective, but all of them seem way ahead of QWERTY.
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline Stefan

  • Posts: 3
Dvorak endorsed by....god!
« Reply #18 on: Fri, 24 February 2012, 04:43:00 »
@Lightoftheworld
Welcome :) The problem is that there's no medical evidence that the keyboard layout has any influence on carpal tunnel syndrom. You promote ergonomic keyboards + DVORAK as cure - just an ergonomic keyboard would have the same effect.

Gerneally speaking I also think that QWERTY/QWERTZ aren't the best layouts you can have. DVORAK is a good start but we shouldn't stop at this. DVORAK is only concerned of the letters, and there are approaches that go some steps further. I want to mention NEO2 which is primarily for the German language but also optimizes the keys for other symbols you use every day as {}, [], has things like  « » aviable, has many greek letters (down- and upcase), mathematical symbols, ... and is optimized for bi- and trigrams you use every day, also things like :-)

They are currently working on NEO3 which will be nearly completely computer optimized - and so also be easier accessible for other languages. So in some time in the future just feed the script with a other word list and you get a new optimized layout for your language.

Offline Proword

  • Posts: 237
  • Location: Perth, Western Australia
Dvorak endorsed by....god!
« Reply #19 on: Sat, 25 February 2012, 01:45:11 »
Quote from: Stefan;524131
The problem is that there's no medical evidence that the keyboard layout has any influence on carpal tunnel syndrom.


This 1994 paper presented at the Royal Society of Medicine would indicate otherwise.

http://www.maltron.com/keyboard-info/academic-papers/233-computer-related-upper-limb-disorder.html



A paper presented in 1988

http://www.maltron.com/keyboard-info/academic-papers/234-a-keyboard-to-increase-productivity-and-reduce-postural-stress.html

notes

The advent of electronic keyboards, mostly in use with visual displays, seems to have highlighted operator stress problems which sometimes occurred with mechanical typewriters. These problems, broadly grouped under the name of Repetitive Strain Injury (RSI), are associated with the over use of particular muscle groups and are found in many occupations. Writer's cramp, Tennis elbow, Cotton picker's arm, are some of the names associated with this type of injury. It also occurs in meat cutting and packing, production and assembly line work in general, to hair dressers and concert pianists. The detail of the injury depends on the actions causing the damage. Medical terms used to describe typical keyboard cases are; Tenosynovitis, Carpal tunnel syndrome, Tendinitis, peritendinitis, and Epicondylitis. Unfortunately none of these conditions respond quickly to a simple cure and much medical doubt surrounds the best mode of treatment.

while addressing some relevant discussion on possible causes of keyboard related injury, which are associated not just with the key distribution but other factors as well.


An earlier paper (1985) says "The operators confirm that the new keyboard is much less tiring to use. The medically diagnosed "arthritis" in the fingers of one has completely cleared."

http://www.maltron.com/keyboard-info/academic-papers/235-keyboards-designed-to-fit-hands-and-reduce-postural-stress.html


Lillian Malt's 1977 paper presented to the Printing Industry Research Association

http://www.maltron.com/keyboard-info/academic-papers/236-lillian-malt-papers.html

contains some interesting research, that led to the development of the Malt key layout, as available on the Maltron keyboard.


I searched the Kinesis Keyboard website

http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/

and managed to find reference to two research papers

Research - View two studies: (1) an intensive 5-month study found that workers strongly preferred the Kinesis Freestyle keyboard over their initial keyboard; and (2) a complete study of the Kinesis contoured keyboard detailing the comparisons between the Kinesis keyboard and a traditional keyboard.

The first paper was headed:

Atlas Ergonomics Study: Workers Strongly Prefer Kinesis Freestyle Keyboard

An intensive five-month study conducted by Atlas Ergonomics found that 96% of the participants preferred to use the Kinesis Freestyle keyboard over their initial keyboard, and 84% of those users preferred to completely split the Freestyle farther apart than the market’s best selling split design.



The second paper started:

Global Ergonomic Technologies, Inc (GET) Study: Ergonomic Test of the Kinesis Contoured Keyboard

A study was conducted of postures, muscle activity, keying performance and preferences of subjects keying on a standard (traditional type) keyboard and the Kinesis keyboard.The main purpose of the study was to determine if the design of the Kinesis keyboard resulted in reduced muscle load, improved performance, and was preferred to a traditional keyboard.



I've been unable to find any substantive research on Dvorak which has not been challenged severely.

For Colemak I was unable to find any fundamental research publications, just blogs and bulletin board references.   Does anybody have any refereed and published work that might shed some light on the development of this layout, and the science behind it?

Joe
Maltron 3D Dual Hand (x4)
Maltron 3D Single Hand (x2 - L & R)

Many people think their lifestyle comes at a cost - but they are quite cool with that as long as somebody ELSE pays it.

Offline boli

  • Posts: 342
Dvorak endorsed by....god!
« Reply #20 on: Sat, 25 February 2012, 03:07:41 »
Quote from: Stefan;524131
The problem is that there's no medical evidence that the keyboard layout has any influence on carpal tunnel syndrom. You promote ergonomic keyboards + DVORAK as cure - just an ergonomic keyboard would have the same effect.
Quote from: Proword;525271
This 1994 paper presented at the Royal Society of Medicine would indicate otherwise.

http://www.maltron.com/keyboard-info/academic-papers/233-computer-related-upper-limb-disorder.html

The paper says:
Quote
CONCLUSION
The evidence that the change of shape of a keyboard can make a substantial difference to operator health, confirms the original findings as to the source of stress and ill health. From this it follows that the standard keyboard is a prime cause of VDU stress and fatigue. That this is avoidable by a relatively inexpensive change in equipment, suggests that the first recommendation in VDU and keyboard related WRULD cases would be to ask that a Maltron keyboard should be tried.

Not sure if you guys mean the same thing when talking about keyboard layout, there's physical layout (shape) and logical layout (mapping of symbols to keys). To me it seems clear that the shape of a keyboard is much more important. A "good" logical layout reduces the number of reaches, because frequent keys are easy to reach - so there's less potentially uncomfortable movements, however on an ergonomic keyboards those movements aren't nearly as bad/uncomfortable as on a conventional one.

Quote from: Proword;525271
For Colemak I was unable to find any fundamental research publications, just blogs and bulletin board references.   Does anybody have any refereed and published work that might shed some light on the development of this layout, and the science behind it?

Don't think there's any papers for it, AFAIK Shai developed it using common sense, analysis of finger distances, same finger occurences, hand balance, consideration of finger strength/dexterity, comfort of common character sequences etc. From what I remember there's loads of bits and pieces of info in the forum, for example why he moved the S key one position to the right. It all sounds very convincing, but it's hard to find. You basically have to look through all of Shai's posts.

Updated: Here are a few examples:
Shai on the Workman layout
Shai on G and P
Shai on B and J
Shai on 2 backspace keys
Shai on S
Shai on Maltron, Capewell, Arensito and Dvorak


From the Colemak FAQ
Quote
Is there any scientific research that shows that Colemak is better?
According to carpalx, which is the most extensive research on keyboard layouts done so far, Colemak wins over Dvorak and QWERTY in all different typing effort models. Note that the default scoring model used by carpalx is somewhat subjective, but configurable. Moreover, there is plenty of anecdotal evidence on the Colemak forum, and on the web.
« Last Edit: Sat, 25 February 2012, 04:24:35 by boli »
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline Proword

  • Posts: 237
  • Location: Perth, Western Australia
Dvorak endorsed by....god!
« Reply #21 on: Sat, 25 February 2012, 07:36:48 »
Quote from: boli;525300

Not sure if you guys mean the same thing when talking about keyboard layout, there's physical layout (shape) and logical layout (mapping of symbols to keys). To me it seems clear that the shape of a keyboard is much more important. A "good" logical layout reduces the number of reaches, because frequent keys are easy to reach - so there's less potentially uncomfortable movements, however on an ergonomic keyboards those movements aren't nearly as bad/uncomfortable as on a conventional one.



Don't think there's any papers for it, AFAIK Shai developed it using common sense, analysis of finger distances, same finger occurences, hand balance, consideration of finger strength/dexterity, comfort of common character sequences etc. From what I remember there's loads of bits and pieces of info in the forum, for example why he moved the S key one position to the right. It all sounds very convincing, but it's hard to find. You basically have to look through all of Shai's posts.

Updated: Here are a few examples:
Shai on the Workman layout
Shai on G and P
Shai on B and J
Shai on 2 backspace keys
Shai on S
Shai on Maltron, Capewell, Arensito and Dvorak


From the Colemak FAQ

Obviously I can't speak for anybody but myself, but I look at the "ergonomic" keyboard in two separate ways.   What you call physical layout I usually refer to as the "form" or "shape" and the logical layout as the "distribution", so we could be getting confused if I don't clarify.

My own experience is that the form and the distribution are both very important, that together they are worth more than the sum of their parts.

To give an idea of how changing only one factor can make a visible difference, I've linked to three Youtube videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYJtF1I3PRs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4H931A3BDE&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxH7Uith0tQ

The first shows the use of a Maltron keyboard under the Malt layout.   If you'll observe closely the hands are almost continuously resting on the keyboard, with virtually no "hovering", meaning that there is no "gross" movement of the arms.  Striking the keys is achieved almost solely by extending and contracting the fingers.  (At the very end of the video the left hand is lifted to click the mouse and you can see the rubber pad stuck on the front of the case where the base of the hand rests.)

The second video shows the same Maltron "form" but using the QWERTY distribution.  The hands very seldom rest and there is almost continuous "gross" movement using the arms and shoulders.

The third video shows a Kinesis keyboard being operated under the Dvorak system.  Whilst this is not an exact replication of the Maltron form it is reasonably close, and it can be seen that whilst the operator's hands are using fewer and smaller gross movements than shown with Maltron/QWERTY, there is more movement than seen under Maltron/Malt combination.

For the purposes of determining the "ergonomic value" of the key distribution,  as I mentioned above, I have some criteria which I use.  Based on these criteria I've found a practical measure is the number of "home row words", ie the number of different words which can be keyed in without moving the hands from the home row.  The logic behind  this is as follows.  If a key can be struck without moving the finger from its resting position, then there is no extraneous work being done, including the rather minute effort (on the Maltron keyboard anyhow) of extending or contracting the fingers to the row above or below the home row.

Another reason for doing it this way is that not one on-line "measuring" system that I've tried can be adapted to the Malt system, which has the left thumb on a letter - "E", which means that the Malt has at least one more "home key" than most other distributions. (Some people seem to regard this as "cheating" somehow, but I could never see it myself. :-D)

In this blog link

http://mostergonomickeyboard.blogspot.com.au/

I go into great detail as to what I regard as an efficient and ergonomic keyboard and why, but in brief based upon an international Scrabble word list of 172,807 words, the following figures were derived. (The actual word lists are linked below.)

http://proword-keyboardlayoutefficiency.blogspot.com/

QWERTY - 198 different words can be typed without taking the fingers from the home keys.

Dvorak - 3126 different words can be typed without taking the fingers from the home keys.

Colemak - 5963 different words can be typed without taking the fingers from the home keys.

Malt - 7639 different words can be typed without taking the fingers from the home keys.

As I say in my blog, I don't regard this as the ONLY criterion, but it's a very simple (and useful) starting point.

I had a read through Shai's links which you put up, and note a couple of points.  In respect of not being able to take a Maltron keyboard with a laptop, I'd beg to differ quite significantly, as for many years I was going to different organisations for the purpose of taking a written record of proceedings (not quite verbatim - for that I'd need to make an audio recording for later transcription) and I had absolutely no difficulty with having the Maltron with me ... and I was always riding a motorcycle, so my carrying capacity was extremely limited.  Further, as a "Temp" legal secretary, I would sometimes be going to two different legal firms in a week to do word processing, and I always took my Maltron, with no problems at all.  Secondly the point about overworking the pinky has never struck  me, and I'd refer the reader to the video showing the Malt layout being used.  When I bought my first Maltron (1986) it came with a fairly comprehensive book of practice lessons.  These days the Maltron website has a very extensive suite of on-line practice typing, for all the different Maltron layouts and different forms, for one or two hands.

Joe
« Last Edit: Sat, 25 February 2012, 07:43:39 by Proword »
Maltron 3D Dual Hand (x4)
Maltron 3D Single Hand (x2 - L & R)

Many people think their lifestyle comes at a cost - but they are quite cool with that as long as somebody ELSE pays it.

Offline boli

  • Posts: 342
Dvorak endorsed by....god!
« Reply #22 on: Sat, 25 February 2012, 10:38:38 »
Thanks for the blog links, Joe, I'll give them a thorough look a little later.

The videos I already know, I think you or someone else posted them at the Colemak forum as well (at least the first 2). I get your point regarding less movement with non-QWERTY layouts, and I agree the logical layout/distribution also has influence on typing effort. I just think than the shape has more influence than the key distribution.

As I use a Kinesis Advantage with Colemak my impression is that the Advantage's (and Maltron 3D's for that matter) physical features are very important regardless of the logical layout:
  • straight columns make for much less diagonal reaching
  • key wells are adjusted for finger length
  • key wells are tilted so the hands' inner edge are higher than the outer edge
  • key wells move the non-home rows closer to the home row
  • thumb keys! backspace, delete, enter and all modifier keys require (almost) no reaching at all
  • key wells are a shoulder width apart
  • ...and so forth. You know why you love your Maltron :)


Now I'm not a doctor, but I think all of these features can help a lot against health issues already, as Maltron showed in their paper. I suppose logical layout improvements on top of that are helpful too, but I haven't seen any research about it.

I am very fascinated with the Malt layout as well as the Maltron keyboard. Four years ago I chose the Kinesis because it's remappable, has the modifiers as thumb keys (which makes a lot of sense to me, because one always presses a modifier together with another key, so thumb + finger, which feels great), and is a lot less expensive than the Maltron (which was more important to me back then, because I just started working after university). But maybe I'll cave one day and get one to finally be able to try one out. :)

With the extra home key of the Malt layout it's no surprise you can type much more without moving your hands, and it's a shame that the various programs to determine the fitness of a layout can't handle Malt. :( I'd really love to see a comparison between Malt and the popular alternative layouts. I'm sure it has its strengths and weaknesses like any other layout. I think we agree that all the alternative layouts you listed (and a few more) are more comfortable/efficient than QWERTY.

As for carrying around your Maltron, yes you can do that, it's just not very practical IME. I don't have a car and used to carry my Kinesis around in my backback for the first few weeks, until I got a second one. :) But I'd never have taken out my laptop and keyboard in the train to actually use it. ;)
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline Playtrumpet

  • Posts: 209
Dvorak endorsed by....god!
« Reply #23 on: Sat, 25 February 2012, 17:19:55 »
I think someone ought to petition bigger keyboard companies to start making matrix layout keyboards. =P
Dvorak

Offline sordna

  • Posts: 2248
Dvorak endorsed by....god!
« Reply #24 on: Sat, 25 February 2012, 17:48:09 »
Getting Microsoft and Apple to do it is the key.
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline Proword

  • Posts: 237
  • Location: Perth, Western Australia
Dvorak endorsed by....god!
« Reply #25 on: Sat, 25 February 2012, 19:41:17 »
Quote from: boli;525528


The videos I already know, I think you or someone else posted them at the Colemak forum as well (at least the first 2). I get your point regarding less movement with non-QWERTY layouts, and I agree the logical layout/distribution also has influence on typing effort. I just think than the shape has more influence than the key distribution.

As I use a Kinesis Advantage with Colemak my impression is that the Advantage's (and Maltron 3D's for that matter) physical features are very important regardless of the logical layout ...


For the purpose of comparison I'd like to see a video of the Kinesis/Colemak combo in action.  Have you seen anything like this during your travels around the 'net?

Yes, I did post the videos into the Colemak forum.

Joe
Maltron 3D Dual Hand (x4)
Maltron 3D Single Hand (x2 - L & R)

Many people think their lifestyle comes at a cost - but they are quite cool with that as long as somebody ELSE pays it.

Offline Proword

  • Posts: 237
  • Location: Perth, Western Australia
Dvorak endorsed by....god!
« Reply #26 on: Sat, 25 February 2012, 19:44:25 »
A case of "ask and ye shall receive" ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7vZGiIGTGc

This video shows the Kinesis/Colemak combo.  I have to say I find the thumb position very uncomfortable looking.  But as he notes he's only just beginning.

Joe
Maltron 3D Dual Hand (x4)
Maltron 3D Single Hand (x2 - L & R)

Many people think their lifestyle comes at a cost - but they are quite cool with that as long as somebody ELSE pays it.

Offline Playtrumpet

  • Posts: 209
Dvorak endorsed by....god!
« Reply #27 on: Sat, 25 February 2012, 19:50:36 »
Quote from: sordna;526017
Getting Microsoft and Apple to do it is the key.
Just submitted Feedback/a suggestion to Apple that they change to matrix layout. I'm sure it'll make an* impact.
« Last Edit: Sat, 25 February 2012, 23:21:02 by Playtrumpet »
Dvorak

Offline Proword

  • Posts: 237
  • Location: Perth, Western Australia
Dvorak endorsed by....god!
« Reply #28 on: Sat, 25 February 2012, 21:52:49 »
Quote from: Playtrumpet;526154
Just submitted Feedback/a suggestion to Apple that they change to matrix layout. I'm sure it'll make in impact.


:rofl:

Joe
Maltron 3D Dual Hand (x4)
Maltron 3D Single Hand (x2 - L & R)

Many people think their lifestyle comes at a cost - but they are quite cool with that as long as somebody ELSE pays it.

Offline sordna

  • Posts: 2248
Dvorak endorsed by....god!
« Reply #29 on: Sat, 25 February 2012, 23:38:48 »
Quote from: Proword;526150
A case of "ask and ye shall receive" ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7vZGiIGTGc

This video shows the Kinesis/Colemak combo.  I have to say I find the thumb position very uncomfortable looking.  But as he notes he's only just beginning.

Interesting video, it's an Advantage LF ! The thumb keys are actually more comfortable than the Maltron, at least to me - I have tried a Maltron for several days. This particular user seems to keep his thumb at an awkward position so he hits the keys with the tip of the thumb. I keep the thumbs relaxed/low/straight and hit the keys with the side of the thumb right where the knuckle is, which is a very natural and comfortable position; it's actually the same position my thumb has when my hands are resting on the keyboard.
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline boli

  • Posts: 342
Dvorak endorsed by....god!
« Reply #30 on: Sun, 26 February 2012, 03:17:59 »
Quote from: Proword;526150
A case of "ask and ye shall receive" ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7vZGiIGTGc

This video shows the Kinesis/Colemak combo.  I have to say I find the thumb position very uncomfortable looking.  But as he notes he's only just beginning.

Nice find! Ideally the people in the videos would all be typing the same text, but we'd have to do it ourselves to get there. ;) (And I don't fancy filming myself)

The same guy (geekhacker oneproduct) with Colemak on Kinesis 2 months later (top view and 20 wpm faster than before): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXYNiOq8XoQ

I have no idea why his left thumb is angled and his right is not (comments to first vid say he moved Space to left thumb, so I suppose Backspace is under the right thumb). For me both thumbs are straight/relaxed, same as sordna.

The thumb area is one of the differences to the Maltron, apparently the thumb keys are lower on a Maltron. A friend who has both keyboards prefers the Maltron's thumb keys (the higher Kinesis thumb keys give him thumb ache).
« Last Edit: Sun, 26 February 2012, 03:32:29 by boli »
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline erw

  • Posts: 103
Dvorak endorsed by....god!
« Reply #31 on: Sun, 26 February 2012, 08:29:15 »
That's so weird. I just filmed my typing and realized I bend my backspace thumb backwards as well when I'm concentrated. I think I get too tense when trying to type fast. When I just type at a comfy pace like here, both thumbs are resting on the keys.
Kinesis Advantage LF (MX Red), Kinesis Advantage (MX Brown), Ergodox (MX Red), Colemak

Offline boli

  • Posts: 342
Dvorak endorsed by....god!
« Reply #32 on: Sun, 26 February 2012, 10:59:34 »
Joe and I had some PMing going on and we decided to post it, because it should be interesting for all. :) Here goes:

Hi Joe

I just read the first blog you mentioned. It was interesting and I agree with most of it. Although I thought that QWERTY designed to be slow was just a myth. Similar to the one that it was designed so that typewriter salesmen can easily write TYPEWRITER using the top row for demonstration purposes. I don't know for certain, but we both agree QWERTY sucks. :)

While reading I arrived at the Maltron page with the home row words comparison.

Quote from: Proword;525390
QWERTY - 198 different words can be typed without taking the fingers from the home keys.

Dvorak - 3126 different words can be typed without taking the fingers from the home keys.

Colemak - 5963 different words can be typed without taking the fingers from the home keys.

Malt - 7639 different words can be typed without taking the fingers from the home keys.

As I say in my blog, I don't regard this as the ONLY criterion, but it's a very simple (and useful) starting point.

I noticed they call it home row keys, you call them home keys. That's quite a difference - your home row has 11 keys, whereas you only have 9 home keys (10 and 8 respectively for non-Malt layouts/keyboards).

It would be interesting so see a comparison with just the home keys, rather than the home row, because reaching for the QWERTY G and H spot (=Malt F and D) isn't more of a reach than for say QWERTY R or U (=Malt C or M) in my opinion.

BTW when you look at the English letter frequencies you will note that there's a sharp drop after the 9th most frequent letter ("R"). With Malt this 9th letter is included in the home keys, whereas with every other keyboard it is not (well "R" is a home key on Colemak, but instead the 8th most frequent letter "H" is not - "H" is on the home row though).

Best regards, Oliver
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline oneproduct

  • Posts: 859
  • Location: Montreal, Canada
  • @Ubisoft
Dvorak endorsed by....god!
« Reply #33 on: Sun, 26 February 2012, 12:06:39 »
Quote from: erw;526598
That's so weird. I just filmed my typing and realized I bend my backspace thumb backwards as well when I'm concentrated. I think I get too tense when trying to type fast. When I just type at a comfy pace like here, both thumbs are resting on the keys.


Yea, I have a problem where I hover my right thumb all the time, even on flat keyboards. I guess I just don't want to accidentally press down on a key with it, but I have to learn to rest it lightly so that it neither presses the key nor has to float. The left thumb is quite comfy on a Kinesis though.

Quote
This particular user seems to keep his thumb at an awkward position so he hits the keys with the tip of the thumb. I keep the thumbs relaxed/low/straight and hit the keys with the side of the thumb right where the knuckle is, which is a very natural and comfortable position; it's actually the same position my thumb has when my hands are resting on the keyboard.


Hmm yes, that's true, didn't really notice that. With my right thumb I use the side of it but with my left thumb I'm more towards the tip. Not quite pressing it with the tip, I think the camera angle exaggerates that a bit, but pressing it with the side of the tip of my thumb.
« Last Edit: Sun, 26 February 2012, 12:09:31 by oneproduct »
Layout: Colemak
Fastest typing speed: 131 WPM on typeracer, 136 WPM on 10fastfingers.
Daily driver: Filco Tenkeyless MX Brown with ergonomically weighted, lubed springs.
Ergo keyboards: Truly Ergonomic, Kinesis Advantage, Ergodox

Offline Proword

  • Posts: 237
  • Location: Perth, Western Australia
Dvorak endorsed by....god!
« Reply #34 on: Sun, 26 February 2012, 17:15:27 »
Quote
Hi Joe

I just read the first blog you mentioned. It was interesting and I agree with most of it. Although I thought that QWERTY designed to be slow was just a myth. Similar to the one that it was designed so that typewriter salesmen can easily write TYPEWRITER using the top row for demonstration purposes. I don't know for certain, but we both agree QWERTY sucks. :)

While reading I arrived at the Maltron page with the home row words comparison.

Quote from: Proword;525390
QWERTY - 198 different words can be typed without taking the fingers from the home keys.

Dvorak - 3126 different words can be typed without taking the fingers from the home keys.

Colemak - 5963 different words can be typed without taking the fingers from the home keys.

Malt - 7639 different words can be typed without taking the fingers from the home keys.

As I say in my blog, I don't regard this as the ONLY criterion, but it's a very simple (and useful) starting point.


I noticed they call it home row keys, you call them home keys. That's quite a difference - your home row has 11 keys, whereas you only have 9 home keys (10 and 8 respectively for non-Malt layouts/keyboards).

It would be interesting so see a comparison with just the home keys, rather than the home row, because reaching for the QWERTY G and H spot (=Malt F and D) isn't more of a reach than for say QWERTY R or U (=Malt C or M) in my opinion.

BTW when you look at the English letter frequencies you will note that there's a sharp drop after the 9th most frequent letter ("R"). With Malt this 9th letter is included in the home keys, whereas with every other keyboard it is not (well "R" is a home key on Colemak, but instead the 8th most frequent letter "H" is not - "H" is on the home row though).

Best regards, Oliver


Hi Oliver,

In my experience, the "myth" of QWERTY being designed to be slow is almost universally attributed to nobody knowing any different - - ie they fall into the trap of "absence of evidence is evidence of absence".  Because they haven't seen it, it doesn't exist.  I actually read Lillian Malt's papers before I bought my first Maltron keyboard (1987), and in part was responsible for my decision to do so.  She was quite clear about it being the case.  

Thanks for drawing the home key vs home row question to my attention.  I actually had considered that when I first did my analysis, but since the move to go sideways one key on either hand was not a "gross" move, ie using arm muscles, and the digit (index finger) involved was, other than the thumb, the most flexible on the hand, I didn't really think it would be of much moment.  However, having read your email, I decided to get to the bottom of it and settle it once and for all.  For consistency I went to my blog and cut and pasted the word lists individually into my word processor (WordPerfect).  I then checked each distribution to see which letters were the "extra" ones (ie under the index fingers but not "home keys").  For the distributions they are as follows: Qwerty - GH; Dvorak - ID; Colemak DH; Maltron DF.  Interesting to note that "D" was in all of the non-QWERTY layouts.  I then used the processor's find and replace function to find each extra key and replace with a symbol ("#").  I then used a small macro I'd written for my initial analysis which searched the document for "#", moved to the start of the line, then deleted the line (ie each word was on its own line).  Thus it didn't matter how many "#" were in each word, it only needed to find the first one.  Thus I eliminated all words which had the forbidden letters.

The results were as follows:
QWERTY - 78 words
Dvorak - 860 words
Colemak - 2509 words
Maltron - 3495 words.

So Colemak and Maltron are both still well clear of the other two using my little test.

Another (minor) reason I decided not to initially exclude the forbidden keys was that one of QWERTY's home keys is the semi-colon, which didn't appear in any word list, and would have given it a very poor score indeed.

I'd personally like to see the Maltron keystroke comparison expanded to cover all four distributions, but unfortunately I have no control over what they do on their website.

So thanks for your observations, they were much appreciated.

Regards,

Joe

PS  I would have no objection if you posted your email into the main thread and I can then post my reply, as I believe that they both contain useful information.

J[/QUOTE]
Maltron 3D Dual Hand (x4)
Maltron 3D Single Hand (x2 - L & R)

Many people think their lifestyle comes at a cost - but they are quite cool with that as long as somebody ELSE pays it.

Offline Lightoftheworld

  • Posts: 2
Dvorak endorsed by....god!
« Reply #35 on: Fri, 02 March 2012, 19:36:40 »
Quote from: Proword;527228
Hi Oliver,

In my experience, the "myth" of QWERTY being designed to be slow is almost universally attributed to nobody knowing any different - - ie they fall into the trap of "absence of evidence is evidence of absence".  Because they haven't seen it, it doesn't exist.  I actually read Lillian Malt's papers before I bought my first Maltron keyboard (1987), and in part was responsible for my decision to do so.  She was quite clear about it being the case.  

Thanks for drawing the home key vs home row question to my attention.  I actually had considered that when I first did my analysis, but since the move to go sideways one key on either hand was not a "gross" move, ie using arm muscles, and the digit (index finger) involved was, other than the thumb, the most flexible on the hand, I didn't really think it would be of much moment.  However, having read your email, I decided to get to the bottom of it and settle it once and for all.  For consistency I went to my blog and cut and pasted the word lists individually into my word processor (WordPerfect).  I then checked each distribution to see which letters were the "extra" ones (ie under the index fingers but not "home keys").  For the distributions they are as follows: Qwerty - GH; Dvorak - ID; Colemak DH; Maltron DF.  Interesting to note that "D" was in all of the non-QWERTY layouts.  I then used the processor's find and replace function to find each extra key and replace with a symbol ("#").  I then used a small macro I'd written for my initial analysis which searched the document for "#", moved to the start of the line, then deleted the line (ie each word was on its own line).  Thus it didn't matter how many "#" were in each word, it only needed to find the first one.  Thus I eliminated all words which had the forbidden letters.

The results were as follows:
QWERTY - 78 words
Dvorak - 860 words
Colemak - 2509 words
Maltron - 3495 words.

So Colemak and Maltron are both still well clear of the other two using my little test.

Another (minor) reason I decided not to initially exclude the forbidden keys was that one of QWERTY's home keys is the semi-colon, which didn't appear in any word list, and would have given it a very poor score indeed.

I'd personally like to see the Maltron keystroke comparison expanded to cover all four distributions, but unfortunately I have no control over what they do on their website.

So thanks for your observations, they were much appreciated.

Regards,

Joe

PS  I would have no objection if you posted your email into the main thread and I can then post my reply, as I believe that they both contain useful information.

J
[/QUOTE]


Well guys it's crunch time.  I have applied for a government grant to do a big publicity campaign in order to get people to switch to Dvorak.  Should I get the grant I don't want to promote the wrong keyboard.  I am somewhat familiar with the Maltron keyboard but that requires a whole new physical keyboard.  Does the Colemak also require a new physical keyboard.  I think that I saw that someone was using the Kinesis with the colemak.  Can it also work on a standard physical keyboard like the staggered Qwerty physical keyboard.  I really need you guys input.

Offline Playtrumpet

  • Posts: 209
Dvorak endorsed by....god!
« Reply #36 on: Fri, 02 March 2012, 22:38:52 »
Quote from: Lightoftheworld;533507


Well guys it's crunch time.  I have applied for a government grant to do a big publicity campaign in order to get people to switch to Dvorak.  Should I get the grant I don't want to promote the wrong keyboard.  I am somewhat familiar with the Maltron keyboard but that requires a whole new physical keyboard.  Does the Colemak also require a new physical keyboard.  I think that I saw that someone was using the Kinesis with the colemak.  Can it also work on a standard physical keyboard like the staggered Qwerty physical keyboard.  I really need you guys input.

Not to sound crass or disrespectful, but if you're seriously looking for a grant, I hope you consider doing more research.

I can't foresee a small publicity campaign for one of the alternative layouts (which have been around a while now) having any impact. One aspect you may want to focus on is the matrix vs staggered setup. At the very least it's interesting and doesn't spark the forever ongoing layout debates.
Dvorak

Offline glitchathon

  • Posts: 37
Dvorak endorsed by....god!
« Reply #37 on: Sat, 03 March 2012, 11:51:46 »
Have to agree with playtrumpet. 5 min reading about Colemak on google would answer those questions. Someone applying for a government grant should take this a little more serious than asking an internet board at the last minute if colemak is better yo?!?!

Offline Proword

  • Posts: 237
  • Location: Perth, Western Australia
Dvorak endorsed by....god!
« Reply #38 on: Sat, 03 March 2012, 20:25:07 »
Well guys it's crunch time.  I have applied for a government grant to do a big publicity campaign in order to get people to switch to Dvorak.  Should I get the grant I don't want to promote the wrong keyboard.  I am somewhat familiar with the Maltron keyboard but that requires a whole new physical keyboard.  Does the Colemak also require a new physical keyboard.  I think that I saw that someone was using the Kinesis with the colemak.  Can it also work on a standard physical keyboard like the staggered Qwerty physical keyboard.  I really need you guys input.
***************

It's a bit late now isn't it?  

I don't see what "input" you could possibly need.  It's not up to us to do your research for you.  Any "input" is probably already available in this forum, if not this thread, should you care to search.

In the first place you have not as yet (as I suggested) published the means (or "test" if you will) by which you arrived at your view that Dvorak (or indeed any other distribution) should be considered as a "standard".  Were I in the government examining your application for a grant I would be looking very closely at this.

If you read some of my previous posts, you'll see that I gave my idea of what this "test" should be ie:

Objective:
Definitive.
Universal:
Accessible:
Reproducible:
Inexpensive:

If you address these points then perhaps you yourself may be able to answer your own question.  Alternatively, you may wish to do your own research.  If you don't wish to go the lengths that I did, of examining 170,000+ words, you may find this link useful.

http://www.rupert.id.au/resources/1000-words.php

It contains several much shorter lists of allegedly common English words.

In both this and other fora, it has been noted that many of the on-line "assessor" programs do not allow the thumb to be assessed as a home key, which is one of the strengths of the Malt layout.  Most key distributions have the space bar being operated by two thumbs.  As has been pointed out, this means that Maltron has 9 "home keys" as opposed to 8 for Dvorak and Colemak, and 7 for QWERTY (assuming that the semi-colon home key is really just a "wasted" key since this is not used very often, in text at least).

As to your question about whether a new physical keyboard is required, both Oliver and I agreed that there are two facets which need to be looked at when assessing a keyboard.  The physical shape (or "form" as I usually call it) and the key distribution or layout, which is what you are trying to push ie  Dvorak as opposed to QWERTY as opposed to Colemak as opposed to Malt, on the same form.

If you read the papers of Lillian Malt referred to, you'll see that she included both QWERTY and Dvorak in her research in creating the Malt layout, and Stephen Hobday's papers discuss the form as well as the distribution.  

Again, were I assessing your application for a grant, I'd be wanting to see some serious published (ie peer reviewed) research on whichever distribution you wish to push your case for, not just some random blog postings.

Joe
Maltron 3D Dual Hand (x4)
Maltron 3D Single Hand (x2 - L & R)

Many people think their lifestyle comes at a cost - but they are quite cool with that as long as somebody ELSE pays it.

Offline boli

  • Posts: 342
Dvorak endorsed by....god!
« Reply #39 on: Sun, 04 March 2012, 06:22:29 »
Quote from: Playtrumpet;533632
I can't foresee a small publicity campaign for one of the alternative layouts (which have been around a while now) having any impact. One aspect you may want to focus on is the matrix vs staggered setup. At the very least it's interesting and doesn't spark the forever ongoing layout debates.


I also have to agree with this.

Keyboards:
As for Maltron vs. Kinesis keyboard, they seem to be quite similar. Their respective differences (advantages?) seem to be:
  • Maltron: Function keys use real switches
  • Maltron: Function keys are right above the number row, so can be touch typed
  • Maltron: Space in the center of the keyboard is used for the numeric keypad
  • Kinesis: Keyboard layout is remappable in firmware, right on the keyboard
  • Kinesis: Lower cost
  • Kinesis: More modifier keys are on thumb keys by default (note: if this is an advantage or not is subjective; I think it is)
Layouts:
About the keyboard layout/key distribution, this is even more subjective. Dvorak is one of the weaker alternatives according to carPalx and other analysis. Obviously it's still far ahead of QWERTY.

From the layouts which can be used on a normal keyboard full optimizations like QGMLWB seem to be quite good.
Because I couldn't find a carPalx analysis of the MTGAP layouts I tested them on my own. They improve a little bit on Dvorak according to the carPalx model, but don't do as well as carPalx optimizations - of course that's to be expected, as they were optimized for a different model.

Partial optimizations as well as Colemak, which only change some of the QWERTY keys, do pretty well too.

And finally there's the Malt keyboard layout, which has the advantage of having an extra home key, but which requires a special keyboard with an extra thumb key (such as the Maltron, Kinesis Advantage, Truly Ergonomic, ...).

Of course this strategy of moving an important letter to a thumb can be applied to all of the "standard keyboard" layouts! I added my own tests/thoughts to this thread about it, and it appears to be possible to improve Colemak to something as good as Malt by moving E to the thumb and moving just two other keys. I have no doubt that this could be improved further with more changes.
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline anselben

  • Posts: 97
Dvorak endorsed by....god!
« Reply #40 on: Thu, 15 March 2012, 14:20:20 »
I'd be interested in learning this.. but I'm also very lazy and comfortable with my layout. I wonder how much of a difference it would make

Offline Tony

  • Posts: 1189
Dvorak endorsed by....god!
« Reply #41 on: Sat, 17 March 2012, 02:30:12 »
Quote from: anselben;546878
I'd be interested in learning this.. but I'm also very lazy and comfortable with my layout. I wonder how much of a difference it would make


Here is a review you should read
Alternative Layouts Review: QWERTY / Colemak / Dvorak
http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:10018
Keyboard: Filco MJ1 104 brown, Filco MJ2 87 brown, Compaq MX11800, Noppoo Choc Brown/Blue/Red, IBM Model M 1996, CMStorm Quickfire Rapid Black
Layout: Colemak experience, speed of 67wpm

Offline Playtrumpet

  • Posts: 209
Dvorak endorsed by....god!
« Reply #42 on: Sat, 17 March 2012, 19:33:30 »
Quote from: anselben;546878
I'd be interested in learning this.. but I'm also very lazy and comfortable with my layout. I wonder how much of a difference it would make

It makes very little difference on the whole. If you're not a hardcore typist and if you have never had any problems with discomfort/fatigue/aching when typing, then there is little reason to switch.

If you're really interested, read up about the layouts. Figure out what you like in your typing style. Learn about the most optimized layouts and maybe even create your own (based on optimized layouts) to suit your tastes.
Dvorak