Update 2023-06-30: PSA Regarding Mechs & Co and Vendor Group Buys

[HoffmanMyster]

Update 2023-06-30

Per our last update, moderators from Geekhack, /r/MechanicalKeyboards, /r/Mechmarket, and MechGroupBuys have been in contact with Chris and Mike of Mechs & Co. Unfortunately, it's been a one sided conversation. We, as a united front, have offered to help in any way we can with Mechs & Co's situation, but while we've made good on our actionable items, we have not seen the same from Mech's & Co.

• We have reached out to other vendors for the possibility of assisting with fullfillment
• We have reached out to other vendors who would be interested in purchasing bulk in stock product to inject money into shipments
• We have ensured an open line of communication directly to the mod team
• We have offered advice and suggestions as to improve communication with the community
• Mechs & Co did not deliver upon regular updates to the team with hard deadlines set collaboratively
• Mechs & Co did not reopen their discord, nor did they post a transparent update
• Mechs & Co were unresponsive and unreachable through traditional avenues of communication

With that being said, we believe that there is significant risk of insolvency or bankruptcy which would put the fulfillment of the paid group buy invoices, let alone the unpaid ones, in serious jeopardy. Mechs & Co has a considerable amount of in-stock, unsold inventory, and we have seen no attempt to discount in attempt to revitalize cash flow. Due to the lack of cash flow out of Mechs & Co, manufacturers are cancelling unpaid invoices and have had to list Mechs & Co's stock directly or resell to other customers or vendors.

For the sake of transparency, we've included a list of paid and unpaid group buys given to us by Mechs & Co. There are group buys in which we did not get a status such as GMK Taiga and GMK Moonlight. Some of us are customers too, so when we decided to include this, it's because it's what we as customers would want. Mechs & Co collected money for all of the following sets and keyboard group buys.

Keycap Sets

Keyset	Payment Status	Product Status
GMK Art	Paid	In Production Queue
GMK Terror Below	Paid	Delivered to Mechs & Co
GMK Truffelschwein	Paid	In production queue
GMK Tako	Paid	Shipping to vendors
GMK Terror	Unpaid	-
GMK Tiramisu	Unpaid	-
GMK NTD	Partially Paid	-
GMK Arctic	Unpaid	-
GMK Mercury	Unpaid	-
GMK Gladiator	Unpaid	-
GMK Cream Matcha	Unpaid	-
GMK Cinder	Unpaid	-
GMK Bordeaux	Unpaid	-
GMK Regal	Unpaid	-
GMK Beige Addon	Unpaid	-
GMK WoB Essentials	Unpaid	-
MW Heresey	Paid	A-Stock in Transit
MW Pluto	Unpaid	-
MW Stone Age	Unpaid	-
MW Cultured	Unpaid	-
MW Barista	Unpaid	-
MW Fuyu	Paid	Shipped to M&C
MW Pavilion	Unpaid	-
MW Commute	Unpaid	-
MW Hayastan	Unpaid	-
DMK Rubber	Paid	In transit

Keyboards

Keyboard	Payment Status
Jex 3CV2	Paid
Bulwark	Unpaid
Hubble65	Partially Paid - Final Invoice still owed
XOX70	Paid
Saevus Cor	Unpaid/Cancelled
Loki65	Unpaid/Cancelled
Norvus60	Paid - Status Unknown (Supposedly in M&C Warehouse)

As this situation continues to unfold, we want to remind the community of a few things:

• Watch for red flags in vendors such as excessive group buys or lack of communication
• When possible, purchase with a payment method that offers buyer protection, like many credit card companies do
• Do your due diligence for GBs, and report a thread or profile to the mod team when you believe there is a scam
• Be wary of content that seems inorganic or persistently biased in favor of a company
• When in doubt, ask questions; if you don't get answers you're satisfied with, it may be a sign to take your business elsewhere

We are not advocating for any specific action; however, here is a brief summary of your consumer rights, which applies to ALL Group Buys, Pre-Orders, and General Purchases:

• Always use a credit card and an official e-commerce platform like PayPal, Shopify, Shop, or Stripe (some unscrupulous business try to request venmo / zelle / bank transfer).
• The PayPal Dispute Period is 180 Days; you should pay attention to advertised turnaround times (like some cable makers claim 2-6 weeks). Communication is Key. If they start ghosting customers and you’re at the 5 month mark, you should probably file a dispute, as this is the easiest time to do so. Furthermore, if enough people file disputes they’ll be penalized $35 per dispute, so it’s an incentive for them to follow through. Even if they are communicating, artisans and cables really shouldn’t be taking 6 months, so you have to ask yourself if you’re comfortable with the risks of potentially never receiving your item.
• However, provided you used a Credit Card and not a Debit Card, if you are past the 180 days PayPal dispute period, you may be able to escalate to a Credit Card Chargeback for Reason Code: Goods Not Shipped / Delivered.
• MasterCard, Visa, and American Express Credit Card Networks typically support between 360-540 days for a dispute, but it is best to submit one before the 1 year mark when possible. Also note that you may need to escalate to a supervisor, and specify that the items you ordered were Never Shipped, thus your chargeback reason is for Goods Not Shipped.
• Additionally, in the event you believe you’ve been scammed, file a report with your relevant local regulatory body, such as the FTC
• If you are not in the USA, there are also other relevant country Consumer Protection regulations, such as in the UK, Canada, EU, and Australia, so you may want to check what legal rights you have if you are not covered by a Credit Card.

As a cross platform Mod Team, we've taken a few things away from this situation to improve what we can do for the community:

• In the future you will most likely see rules regarding vendors and group buys to be consistent cross platform. While each community retains it's own unique space, it's important that we have some baseline rules to help ensure that we are doing everything we can to help avoid situations like this in the future.
• We've already begun to cross-ban scammers and people willing to take advantage of the community.

Signed,
The Mods of /r/MechanicalKeyboards, /r/mechmarket, Mech Group Buys, and geekhack

Edit: Further status updates made on 2023-07-01


Original Post

Our hobby is subject to the same economic cycles resulting in reduced overall market demand over the past year. This in turn has increased financial pressures on several KB vendors, many of whom operate on limited cash flow and deferred product fulfillment.

Some vendors (such as Prevail) closed while making good on their customer obligations, while others have overextended themselves, resulting in insufficient funds to fulfill orders or pay manufacturers for existing orders. Notably, while the hobby was in peak demand during covid, several vendors re-invested Group Buy (GB) profits to meet Minimum Order Quantities or MOQ (for example, if there is a minimum quantity of 1000 and only 700 sets sold, the lead vendor bought the remaining required 300), and/or bought a large quantity of extra units beyond the MOQ. Vendors purchased these extra units hoping to make more profit, assuming demand would continue to grow, which has not happened.

It has come to our attention that Mechs & Co, who ran many GBs, has been financially struggling due to the aforementioned circumstances. We are currently in touch with the owners, who have committed to providing regular updates and transparency on their unfulfilled GBs and pending orders. While this will not solve the problem for all customers, if they deliver on their promise, it will at least provide more visibility which is currently lacking.

We strongly recommend that the community be extremely cautious when joining any GB from any vendor, especially those who have a large number of unfulfilled GBs. Be alert when updates start to become irregular or cease, and avoid joining more GBs from those vendors.
We intend to follow up as soon as we have more information about the situation.

Signed,
The Mods of /r/MechanicalKeyboards, /r/mechmarket, Mech Group Buys, and Geekhack

Link to /r/mk topic on the matter

[hali]

Thanks for the PSA. Unfortunately, I feel that some of the cues require you to dig deeper and also be able to recognize certain trends. It's not always easy for newcomers to read the signs and make an informed purchase decision, especially when other vendors can be doing the same things and still appear "fine."

for real though, maybe a guide to safer buying or similar could help

[ggggggg]

^good stuff

Please give mykeyboard.eu a stern talking to next.

[EdgeOfInfinity]

appreciate the info Hoff & Hali coming thru w/ the receipts; a true shame though.

[Rhienfo]

Thanks for mentioning this. COVID was probably the main reason why the hobby exploded in popularity and for some reason these vendors didn't think to themselves whether the hobby will maintain it's popularity after covid, and whether it was sustainable to do so.

after all of these fiasco with shady vendors, it has definitely made me more weary when it comes to joining group buys and I hope everything can get resolved with vendors like Mech&Co but the reality is that products might not be delivered ever, so I hope that damage is minimal.

[Puddsy]

mechs and co expanded too big too fast

it's no secret at this point that most GBs are making the bulk of their money on extras (or at least were during normal times), where the product can be sold at much higher margin

to predict what sets become hype and what sets don't is impossible, and generally a losing battle -- therein lies the problem

thus the hobby moves on

will we learn this time? no

[DaaDaa]

So mechs and Co has literally run with people's money? Wow I have so many gb sets with them.

[DaaDaa]

ok I checked and all payments that i have to them are past the point that i would have any recourse. They are located in Middletown NY and I am relatively close. I intend to get an update in person.

[EdgeOfInfinity]

I intend to get an update in person.

let us know how that goes! lmao 

[DaaDaa]

I intend to get an update in person.

let us know how that goes! lmao 

you got it bae

[//gainsborough]

I also have quite a bit of money tied up in GBs with them.  Please report back with whatever information you find out!

[codecoffeecode]

Is there any consistent method of gathering order stats without having to wait for the vendors or folks like dvorcol to post numbers? These patterns emerge in hindsight but how can potential customers see these data points prior to the conclusion of the group buy? Even then, some vendors never end up providing those order numbers or don't allow group buy refunds.

Personally, I had managed to remain unscathed by the seemingly increasing number overwhelmed vendors and straight-up scams up until this point. I suppose I could have tried to predict M&C's over-extension, but how would I have done this? If I join Fancy Vendor's group buy today, and then Fancy Vendor starts fifty more over the next few weeks, what can I do except hope that they deliver my group buy before they are inundated with the others?

Our hobby's standard practice is to provide these companies with six-figure interest-free loans and hope they keep their **** together for the year or two or three or four it takes for them to pay the manufacturers and eventually mail us our pieces of plastic and slabs of aluminum.

Perhaps we as a hobby need to start ensuring that manufacturers are paid before any customer pays the vendor. That's why interest checks are so important and why they are typically held to such a high standard on GeekHack: that's your market research. Vendors can get an idea of the number of potential buyers, account for people that will inevitably flake, and place the order with the manufacturer before taking a dime from customers. The manufacturers can then have representatives confirm payment has been made in the GB threads.

There would definitely be situations where not enough people buy the products and the vendors struggle to pay back their business loans (or pay themselves back if they're rolling in it), but that's the nature of a business: sometimes products don't sell and the vendor loses money and even goes under. But the companies running these group buys need to be the ones financially responsible when **** goes sideways. There's no reason all of the risk is on the customer.

[vhaarr]

There's no reason all of the risk is on the customer.

But we're not customers. We're a group of people who essentially created their own Kickstarter-ecosystem without diversification to help keep connection hubs (between manu-enduser) afloat.

these companies

Is there any reason to believe that "these companies" are anything else than small endeavours started by enthusiasts like yourself? You might have the best intentions, but (1) you could be just bad at running a company like this and not know it (ever heard of Dunning-Kruger?), or (2) you could be overwhelmed and stressed out from all the work, i.e. unable to handle the workload and unable to pay enough to hire someone to help you, or (3) perhaps one or more close family relatives die so you stop caring, or (4) perhaps you chop your leg off with a chainsaw (literally happened to a friend of mine 2 months ago) and so your priorities change and you neglect the company - perhaps you hire someone to run it, who doesn't care about the hobby, who ****s up big time, or, or, or.

Most people have good intentions.

I'm not defending M&C, I have no idea who they are, how long they've operated, or why they failed. I imagine they're in the US, I am on the other side of the world. But companies are started - most times - by single individuals like yourself with good intentions and a dream.

I'd be really curious to know more about what happened here, so that hopefully our ecosystem can learn from it and grow, and help prevent this thing from happening in the future. But until proven otherwise I'm not willing to think of any group buy vendor as anything but a clone of myself with a different life path.

They're not faceless corporations, they're people like me.

[codecoffeecode]

But we're not customers. We're a group of people who essentially created their own Kickstarter-ecosystem without diversification to help keep connection hubs (between manu-enduser) afloat.

But I am a customer: I paid a business expecting a product in return.

Is there any reason to believe that "these companies" are anything else than small endeavours started by enthusiasts like yourself?

These companies being small endeavors run by enthusiasts doesn't absolve them of the financial obligations they've undertaken by running a business. A financial transaction took place; this wasn't a $50 loan to a friend.

They're not faceless corporations, they're people like me.

If you were to go on r/mechmarket and pay a "person like you" some amount of money for keycaps and never receive them, are you going to let it go because they're just a person, or are you going to attempt to get your money back just like you would with any other faceless corporation? We can't keep treating these businesses like chums who bear no obligations to the people from whom they have taken money.

(1) you could be just bad at running a company like this and not know it (ever heard of Dunning-Kruger?), or (2) you could be overwhelmed and stressed out from all the work, i.e. unable to handle the workload and unable to pay enough to hire someone to help you, or (3) perhaps one or more close family relatives die so you stop caring, or (4) perhaps you chop your leg off with a chainsaw

**** happens. That's an inherent risk you take not just in starting a business, but just living life. I'm not particularly interested in the how and why of Mechs & Co.'s current situation; I just want them to fulfill their obligations to me as a customer who supported them in this hobby.

[HoffmanMyster]

Updated the OP with current information

[kiyoboard]

I have always thought that GMK starts production only after they get paid in full. How does it work in this case? Also, feels like that information should be public so that customers can react quicker if there is an issue with the invoice payment.

[Puddsy]

hubris led them to bascally do a ponzi scheme

awful all around

[clik_clak]

Put in a CC dispute today for my GMK Regal order from 363 days ago. Thankfully they accepted the dispute with no issues.

Pretty dumb that orders placed a year ago still haven't been paid to the vendor. I didn't loan this business money, I paid for a product. I expect my money to be used in a timely manner to get the product I paid for into production.

Poeple need to stop giving these businesses/GB runners passes for their scammy practices.

If you start selling products to people, you need to now treat your hobby like the business it now became.

[involuntarysoul]

I'd be really curious to know more about what happened here

they used GB payments for personal investments, such as a down payment for a new house etc, thinking they will easily make the money back by selling overpriced extras, comes 2021, extras have stopped selling they have no other source of income so they started to take on multiple groupbuys and use the GB payment to paying off their debt. Like all ponzi scheme there will be a point when people realize and try to get money back, in their case it is the Loki65 GB

[DaaDaa]

,.....

[Rhienfo]

I was not able to dispute the ones for GMK tiramisu, heresy, and GMK Bordeaux but they said that they will take a note and consider it in their investigation. actually there is a good chance that amex will come through for those too. this is very unfortunate because it is going to really make starting another business or even getting a credit card difficult for them. they really should have worked with geekhack, mechmarket and us.  I have quite a few different credit cards but thankfully for all transactions with them I had used amex which really takes care of me or at least has so far. so i already got reimbursed for dmk rubber and MW barista and I might even get back my money for heresy, and tiramisu and Boudreaux.

Hope you eventually get you money back there. I think that even if they worked with geekhack etc and did everything they could by the end of it some people still wouldn't have gotten back their money or the things they ordered but the lack of communication as described is truly shocking. It's like they have completely given up on trying to help people, it seems they have done nothing to try and save the situation here (as said stuff like discounting stuff in stock and then using that money to refund people or fulfill orders) which is selfish and horrible to the people that bought from them.

[DaaDaa]

The announcement of their discord that they just put up is hilarious. It doesn't answer any questions or give any info, it just asked us all to sit back and take it as it has been uncomfortable for them.

[zebus]

The announcement of their discord that they just put up is hilarious. It doesn't answer any questions or give any info, it just asked us all to sit back and take it as it has been uncomfortable for them.

Worse than that. They used their one update to throw out the victim card while simultaneously doubling down on the fact that they are watching out for their star players and don’t give a **** about anyone else, peppered with thinly veiled threats aimed at the people they’ve already ****ed over that lined their pockets for them.

[Pandamom98]

Here's their update they posted in discord if anyone wanted to read it

@everyone

While we continue to work on fulfilling orders and managing to stabilize our business due to the recent community issues, we ask that everyone be patient with us and the response as the mass influx of requests from both the updates side and refunds side has been overwhelming.

It’s no secret that us as well as other vendors have hit cash flow issues due to the state of the hobby, the market changing and other factors. We’re doing our best to take care of what we can and still generate revenue with in stock product to operate so we can continue fulfilling GBs that have run.

With that, we also ask that _absolutely no one_ unless asked to otherwise, reach out to anyone affiliated with M&C through personal channels or their family members or share personal sensitive information. We have a business and LLC setup for a reason and we’re working with multiple people and organizations in the community to continue fulfilling orders and move forward with projects the best way possible. If we feel it’s best to stop operations and close down based on legal counsel then we will do so but until then we will continue operating the best we can under these circumstances. Every member has family and people they care about and we understand everyone’s frustrations but that’s not the appropriate route for anyone to take.

Some people also expect responses on weekends and holidays and we are not in during those times, example this weekend through Tuesday. We are working on a sheet with the Mechmarket Mods for updates on all outstanding GBs and we hope to have it by the middle of next week for further transparency.

Thanks for reading and understanding,
M&C

[AmethystDCVR]

another one bites the dust. im lucky i got out unscathed since monochrome was my last GB i did with them. i feel bad for anyone else still caught in the rubble

Vala's ponzi scheme will probably collapse soon after this one

[DaaDaa]

another one bites the dust. im lucky i got out unscathed since monochrome was my last GB i did with them. i feel bad for anyone else still caught in the rubble

Vala's ponzi scheme will probably collapse soon after this one

Vala has been giving refund per request fr any GB for any reason so they are on my cool side and i have gmk electric with them which i am really looking forward to as it is, to me, one of the most exciting GMK designs.

[Pandamom98]

Vala has been giving refund per request fr any GB for any reason so they are on my cool side and i have gmk electric with them which i am really looking forward to as it is, to me, one of the most exciting GMK designs.

Vala honestly seems to have turned it around with their own issues they were having and improved themselves (especially with shipping from what ive been hearing from others)

[vhaarr]

Could it be an idea to require GB runners to post the number of extras that each vendor has ordered?

It would still require us to be vigilant, but then at least we could have some comparative reference using community google sheets or whatever.

[Puddsy]

Could it be an idea to require GB runners to post the number of extras that each vendor has ordered?

It would still require us to be vigilant, but then at least we could have some comparative reference using community google sheets or whatever.

no vendor will ever post on GH again if this happens

[Pandamom98]

Fedex was unable to deliver Fuyu to Mechs&co per Swishy's latest update

@member I come bearing bad news, I was informed yesterday that the fuyu shipment, could not make the final delivery to Mechs&Co. Fedex couldn’t reach anyone, so at this point the set will either be sent to a location in the US or sent back to china. :AnyaSob:

With that being said, if we do end up getting the set back, it will go up along the other sets on mwkeys.com, despite what the reddit update says, we were not actually paid for fuyu and that account is outstanding.  This is becoming an annoyingly tiresome journey that I know we all wish would resolve itself. I am genuinely sorry for those who are being impacted by the inaction of others.

Lastly, it would be a big help if yall could help spread the word of the MWkeys storefront, it not only helps us stay operational, but also helps those who may not follow the discord but are impacted.

Please remember to be kind to one another! And as always ask me any questions in ⁠general or https://forms.gle/4RtFQ351L4RFAiWt7

[DaaDaa]

An LLC or even bankruptcy does not mean that you can take money from consumers and go about your merry life.

1 - any money taken from buyers promising a service or product is not shielded by any LLC or bankruptcy, any business that has taken money and has not provided the product and service is required to give the money back. this is why other retailers like vala supply and novelkeys started issuing refund per consumer request last year.  report the money that you have paid to FTC now: https://reportfraud.ftc.gov/#/
2 - I an not even sure that these people actually register an LLC. i think the whole thing might be a fraud. in either case we can come together and take them to court. since we all have proof of the orders and payments we can easily get a judge to put a lien on REAL ESTATE or cars they might have. . even the ones in foreign countries can participate and will be covered. I already consulted a lawyer that has done two previous jobs for me here in Pennsylvania.
3 - save the records of your orders and screenshots of their website before they purge it.
4 -there is at least one other person that I know of that has initiated or started some kind of legal action, we need to coordinate. please contact me. via pm and ill give you my phone number. I'm willing to initiate the legal action and pay some fees up to $2000 just to get these bastards but I would like to be joined by everyone who has lost money.
5- the address that they have provided as their business also seems to be not valid. 55 Maple Ave 10921. this doesn't mean that they are sleek. this is proof of their misconduct according to the lawyer i consulted. a business address is required by law to be correct and valid even if its the owners personal residence and it is a rental, it still needs to be the actual place that the business is conducted from and they would be in trouble with IRS if its not.

[streamline]

I have been dtry

An LLC or even bankruptcy does not mean that you can take money from consumers and go about your merry life.

1 - any money taken from buyers promising a service or product is not shielded by any LLC or bankruptcy, any business that has taken money and has not provided the product and service is required to give the money back. this is why other retailers like vala supply and novelkeys started issuing refund per consumer request last year.  report the money that you have paid to FTC now: https://reportfraud.ftc.gov/#/
2 - I an not even sure that these people actually register an LLC. i think the whole thing might be a fraud. in either case we can come together and take them to court. since we all have proof of the orders and payments we can easily get a judge to put a lien on REAL ESTATE or cars they might have. . even the ones in foreign countries can participate and will be covered. I already consulted a lawyer that has done two previous jobs for me here in Pennsylvania.
3 - save the records of your orders and screenshots of their website before they purge it.
4 -there is at least one other person that I know of that has initiated or started some kind of legal action, we need to coordinate. please contact me. via pm and ill give you my phone number. I'm willing to initiate the legal action and pay some fees up to $2000 just to get these bastards but I would like to be joined by everyone who has lost money.
5- the address that they have provided as their business also seems to be not valid. 55 Maple Ave 10921. this doesn't mean that they are sleek. this is proof of their misconduct according to the lawyer i consulted. a business address is required by law to be correct and valid even if its the owners personal residence and it is a rental, it still needs to be the actual place that the business is conducted from and they would be in trouble with IRS if its not.

add me on discord daadaa, I have been trying to get an attorney. discord is just streamline

[Cevazii]

This is a piece of piss. :/ I was hoping to snag extras of KAM 80’s After Dark as I missed out on the initial GB, but now I’ve gotta hope that Zfrontier will have the kits I need or… *sigh* go back to Reddit. :/

[Rhienfo]

Update on the mech and co situation, there was a reddit post on r/mk that details more info

The TLDR is, the founders from M&C are not responding (Including accepting deliveries), it seems that they have no money to ship anything so DO NOT buy anything in stock and if you can chargeback immediately. It looks like they are considering bankruptcy as an option and people may be pursuing legal action.

More detail to the situation can be found in the reddit post https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/14v52yp/mechs_co_vendor_update/

[Curin Derwin]

My GMK Moonlight sets, GMK Cobalt sets, and GMK Lazurite (Ramas) remain unfulfilled, as well, despite them being claimed to be in-stock and received.

[rmendis]

mechs and co expanded too big too fast

it's no secret at this point that most GBs are making the bulk of their money on extras (or at least were during normal times), where the product can be sold at much higher margin

to predict what sets become hype and what sets don't is impossible, and generally a losing battle -- therein lies the problem

thus the hobby moves on

will we learn this time? no

The problem is not about predicting which set will be hype or not, the problem is some vendors exploiting the GB model to get interest free capital that they then squander when sets don’t even hit moq. The GB model should be used by individuals only, not large vendors running multiple simultaneous multi million dollar buys. When you hold no risk, you lose respect for other peoples money, resulting in situations like this.

[Rhienfo]

mechs and co expanded too big too fast

it's no secret at this point that most GBs are making the bulk of their money on extras (or at least were during normal times), where the product can be sold at much higher margin

to predict what sets become hype and what sets don't is impossible, and generally a losing battle -- therein lies the problem

thus the hobby moves on

will we learn this time? no

The problem is not about predicting which set will be hype or not, the problem is some vendors exploiting the GB model an interest free capital that they then squander when sets don’t even hit moq. The GB model should be used by individuals only, not large vendors running multiple simultaneous multi million dollar buys. When you hold no risk, you lose respect for other peoples money, resulting in situations like this.

Yeah this would have never happened if the orders were in-stock, if the same scenario happened, the vendors would've just gone bust. I don't think it was reasonable to do it now, and it seems that vendors are struggling due to the mass exodus from a lot of the hobby which makes people lack the upfront capital in order to invest. When the hobby starts to stabilize I feel that the larger vendors, assuming the upfront capital is there have no excuse to do in-stock runs of things like keyboards (which already happens with some entry level boards). I feel that keycaps are a bit different, due to the larger demand and the large queue on some of the makers making it a bit too much of the risk, as well as a higher amount to be paid upfront. I also think that there would not be another instance where a vendor pays to make a set hit MOQ (or at least a large amount of orders paid by a vendor) due to the less demand, like extras aren't being sold out like they used to on some of the biggest vendors, so it's a massive risk that will not pay off.

[codecoffeecode]

I'm not sure the GB model is appropriate for individuals either: running a group buy as an individual invites personal liability for the organizer rather than liability for the business. I do think it's wise for group buy runners to protect themselves with a legally registered business.

As for the customer, at least when a group buy is run through a US-based company, there's a paper-trail: the state keeps a record of the business registration, if taxes have been paid, the physical office location (or at least the registered agent), the names of the company officers, etc.

When an individual does a group buy, there's nothing to go off of except who they say they are and their 'status' within the community: I couldn't tell you the first names, let alone the surnames, of the designers whose boards I've purchased. If a private individual's group buy goes sideways, how do you track down the right person to sue, or at least send a complaint to? Joining a group buy through someone whose only identity in the community is DaP00nSl4yer69#4200 on Discord is not any better than going through FooBar Company, LLC.

And maybe (definitely) I'm cynical: I know this community runs on trust, trust that has been taken advantage of. Again. And I know there are people who would entrust esteemed, aged members of the community with their life savings (or at least their rent money) for a year or two. But that doesn't mean we should.

[Rhienfo]

I'm not sure the GB model is appropriate for individuals either: running a group buy as an individual invites personal liability for the organizer rather than liability for the business. I do think it's wise for group buy runners to protect themselves with a legally registered business.

As for the customer, at least when a group buy is run through a US-based company, there's a paper-trail: the state keeps a record of the business registration, if taxes have been paid, the physical office location (or at least the registered agent), the names of the company officers, etc.

When an individual does a group buy, there's nothing to go off of except who they say they are and their 'status' within the community: I couldn't tell you the first names, let alone the surnames, of the designers whose boards I've purchased. If a private individual's group buy goes sideways, how do you track down the right person to sue, or at least send a complaint to? Joining a group buy through someone whose only identity in the community is DaP00nSl4yer69#4200 on Discord is not any better than going through FooBar Company, LLC.

And maybe (definitely) I'm cynical: I know this community runs on trust, trust that has been taken advantage of. Again. And I know there are people who would entrust esteemed, aged members of the community with their life savings (or at least their rent money) for a year or two. But that doesn't mean we should.

Group buys are almost mandatory for individuals due to the lack of funds required to do an in stock run. It is already an investment to do a GB that isn't a trash project, with prototyping and logistics in terms of sending units to reviewers/content creators (this is optional but really helps selling the 50 or so units that an individual may run) and if something goes wrong that's even more money that's spent, often leading to a runners losing money on projects. It's just too much to ask a person to pay upfront.

Yeah there is an inherit risk for GBs in general whether it is a person or a large company, but to say that isn't appropriate acts like there is a better option for individuals but in almost every circumstance GBs are the only option, a lot of these boards that individuals run are passion projects, so funding from outside sources will not happen.

[codecoffeecode]

Group buys are almost mandatory for individuals due to the lack of funds required to do an in stock run. It is already an investment to do a GB that isn't a trash project, with prototyping and logistics in terms of sending units to reviewers/content creators (this is optional but really helps selling the 50 or so units that an individual may run) and if something goes wrong that's even more money that's spent, often leading to a runners losing money on projects. It's just too much to ask a person to pay upfront.

How is it too much to ask that someone wanting to undertake a business venture involving thousands of dollars not create a registered business and take out a business loan to acquire capital? That expectation exists in every other industry. If an enthusiast doesn't have the initial capital to make their design a reality, they shouldn't come crawling to the community for funds; they should go to a bank.

I get that part of the appeal of this hobby is that "anyone" can get their dream product manufactured and shipped to other enthusiasts through the group buy model. But we can't keep letting random individuals who often have very little work experience, let alone entrepreneurship experience, just take people's money and hope for the best.

As I said before, sometimes **** happens when running a business and it goes under. But that's the reality of running a business: most of them fail. But that fact shouldn't keep members of the community from trying get these products into the hands of other enthusiasts. The idea that high startup costs makes it okay to put the risk entirely on the customers is not okay at all.

[Kiririn]

Looks like Mike has bailed. He changed his LinkedIn from Mechs & Co owner to a generic "Ecommerce Business" June 2020 - July 2023 while adding new employment somewhere else starting July 2023.

[HubertThemad]

Group buys are almost mandatory for individuals due to the lack of funds required to do an in stock run. It is already an investment to do a GB that isn't a trash project, with prototyping and logistics in terms of sending units to reviewers/content creators (this is optional but really helps selling the 50 or so units that an individual may run) and if something goes wrong that's even more money that's spent, often leading to a runners losing money on projects. It's just too much to ask a person to pay upfront.

How is it too much to ask that someone wanting to undertake a business venture involving thousands of dollars not create a registered business and take out a business loan to acquire capital? That expectation exists in every other industry. If an enthusiast doesn't have the initial capital to make their design a reality, they shouldn't come crawling to the community for funds; they should go to a bank.

You don't just see group buys/crowdfunding in our keyboard hobby, however. Kickstarter, Indiegogo, and other similar sites have items or goods funded by crowdfunding for other hobbies and industries(video games, clothing, movies, you name it).

We've seen success stories from crowdfunding, we've seen disasters, and everything in between.

I love in-stock products, but just taking out a business loan end ending up with too many in-stock products versus running a GB can also be a problem and cause even the best vendors or businesses to go under, even if a business does their research and gauges interest the best they can.

Say an IC is run for a keyboard, and 500 people state that they would absolutely buy the keyboard. Instead of running a GB, the vendor takes out a business loan to buy 300-500 keyboards, hoping that the interest was genuine and based on whatever market research and projections they did. That vendor only sells 100 keyboards out of the 300-500 they decided to buy because of the IC. They expected to sell more, and now they're left with in-stock products that they have to sell at cost, or more likely, at a loss. Now they're essentially screwed and have to find ways to get the rest of the money to pay that business loan back.

I understand why GBs happen. Runners want to know the exact number (or as close as possible) of individuals that will buy that item, or specifically, put money down for that item. Yes, there can be cancellations, but GBs can give you somewhat realistic expectations of what you're selling in terms of how many you'll sell. If 300 people buy into the GB, you have an actual number (as close as possible) of units to buy. This isn't assuming the costs it takes to prototype, design, and so on.

Also, there are the passion projects like what was said before. There are some GB runners that simply want to create a product and do not care about making money off of it and very likely will be losing money. For those GB runners, a business loan may not be feasible (and also, business loans may be different in other countries. It may be difficult/impossible for someone to obtain a business loan in a country outside of the US versus someone living in the US).

What you said about "letting random individuals that have little experience" run GBs is absolutely true. We all know that the chance of some delay or unforeseen circumstance happening during a GB is basically guaranteed, even if it's a small delay (or a worldwide pandemic), and if someone inexperienced runs into those issues, it could be a disaster. Of course, experienced GB runners can also experience disasters as well, but it obviously makes sense to believe that an experienced GB runner will know what to do more than an inexperienced runner.

I believe it also comes down to the consumer. Understanding what GB/project seems risky, what red flags to look for, and researching before you buy is really important. Does this mean that you can eliminate ALL risks? Absolutely not. Even if all signs point to a successful and well-ran GB, that doesn't mean that no issues will arise.

I don't know if anyone saw the red flags regarding Mechs & Co., because judging by different subreddits, geekhack posts, and various discord discussions and responses, a lot of people didn't see this coming, with some not being able to issue chargebacks or obtain refunds.

I think instead of focusing on GBs being a problem, we should make sure to stress being smart as a consumer, educate on what may be red flags, and MOST importantly of all, strive to improve communication from vendors/GB runners. Making a mistake or having delays, but communicating when those issues happen can go a long way. Yes, there are some things that have to be kept behind the scenes, but perhaps we would be in a different situation if we had better communication from Mechs & Co.

I'm not hating or being critical of your thoughts, CodeCoffee, I just wanted to put my thoughts of the GB model into words.

[EdgeOfInfinity]

maybe the real keycaps were the friends we made along the way 

[Rhienfo]

You don't just see group buys/crowdfunding in our keyboard hobby, however. Kickstarter, Indiegogo, and other similar sites have items or goods funded by crowdfunding for other hobbies and industries(video games, clothing, movies, you name it).

We've seen success stories from crowdfunding, we've seen disasters, and everything in between.

I love in-stock products, but just taking out a business loan end ending up with too many in-stock products versus running a GB can also be a problem and cause even the best vendors or businesses to go under, even if a business does their research and gauges interest the best they can.

Say an IC is run for a keyboard, and 500 people state that they would absolutely buy the keyboard. Instead of running a GB, the vendor takes out a business loan to buy 300-500 keyboards, hoping that the interest was genuine and based on whatever market research and projections they did. That vendor only sells 100 keyboards out of the 300-500 they decided to buy because of the IC. They expected to sell more, and now they're left with in-stock products that they have to sell at cost, or more likely, at a loss. Now they're essentially screwed and have to find ways to get the rest of the money to pay that business loan back.

I understand why GBs happen. Runners want to know the exact number (or as close as possible) of individuals that will buy that item, or specifically, put money down for that item. Yes, there can be cancellations, but GBs can give you somewhat realistic expectations of what you're selling in terms of how many you'll sell. If 300 people buy into the GB, you have an actual number (as close as possible) of units to buy. This isn't assuming the costs it takes to prototype, design, and so on.

Also, there are the passion projects like what was said before. There are some GB runners that simply want to create a product and do not care about making money off of it and very likely will be losing money. For those GB runners, a business loan may not be feasible (and also, business loans may be different in other countries. It may be difficult/impossible for someone to obtain a business loan in a country outside of the US versus someone living in the US).

What you said about "letting random individuals that have little experience" run GBs is absolutely true. We all know that the chance of some delay or unforeseen circumstance happening during a GB is basically guaranteed, even if it's a small delay (or a worldwide pandemic), and if someone inexperienced runs into those issues, it could be a disaster. Of course, experienced GB runners can also experience disasters as well, but it obviously makes sense to believe that an experienced GB runner will know what to do more than an inexperienced runner.

I believe it also comes down to the consumer. Understanding what GB/project seems risky, what red flags to look for, and researching before you buy is really important. Does this mean that you can eliminate ALL risks? Absolutely not. Even if all signs point to a successful and well-ran GB, that doesn't mean that no issues will arise.

I don't know if anyone saw the red flags regarding Mechs & Co., because judging by different subreddits, geekhack posts, and various discord discussions and responses, a lot of people didn't see this coming, with some not being able to issue chargebacks or obtain refunds.

I think instead of focusing on GBs being a problem, we should make sure to stress being smart as a consumer, educate on what may be red flags, and MOST importantly of all, strive to improve communication from vendors/GB runners. Making a mistake or having delays, but communicating when those issues happen can go a long way. Yes, there are some things that have to be kept behind the scenes, but perhaps we would be in a different situation if we had better communication from Mechs & Co.

I'm not hating or being critical of your thoughts, CodeCoffee, I just wanted to put my thoughts of the GB model into words.

Another thing to mention is that a lot of the people designing and running gbs have jobs outside of the hobby, Geon is a perfect example of this, the keyboarding part of his Machining business is a side thing, because he was a hobbyist. And he even puts risk when running gbs, take the original F2-84 where he lost $110000 (or at least had to pay that amount) replacing the production errors, let alone the risk he has when selling the instock frog tkl. And he can afford to pay those mistakes off, so Imagine a person who works a 9-5 job, who has to put so much risk, having debt that they can't pay which could ruin them financially, on top of the amount of issues that could go wrong.

As I said before there is an inherit risk, and only people who know what they are doing, who understand the risks involved should be running GBs, and we should educate people and notify people on red flags with a project, I also agree that runners should be able to be contacted even if they delete everything, and try to exit scam. But a lot of the time it's unreasonable to make individuals get business loans for what is such a high risk that can lead to disaster.

Also with M&C there were very few red flags in the public, the only red flag I know was to look at Sales data, noticed the trends and know about how vendors work to know that they were buying way too many extras, then predict that the hobby would lose a lot of popularity across 2022/2023 and that the economy would get a lot worse so no money would flow into the vendors and that vendors wouldn't have the money to pay those makers due to buying extras. It would be almost impossible to know that, so people put their money in expecting a stable business and basically got scammed.

[involuntarysoul]

in M&C's case they never brought the extras because they did not even pay the invoice, the GB money went somewhere else, prob used it to pay off their student loans

[codecoffeecode]

You don't just see group buys/crowdfunding in our keyboard hobby, however. Kickstarter, Indiegogo, and other similar sites have items or goods funded by crowdfunding for other hobbies and industries(video games, clothing, movies, you name it).

That's true and I hate it. And I'd argue those companies do it for the similar reasons people in this hobby do group buys: it's a way to skirt investing their own capital to produce a product.

Say an IC is run for a keyboard, and 500 people state that they would absolutely buy the keyboard. Instead of running a GB, the vendor takes out a business loan to buy 300-500 keyboards, hoping that the interest was genuine and based on whatever market research and projections they did. That vendor only sells 100 keyboards out of the 300-500 they decided to buy because of the IC. They expected to sell more, and now they're left with in-stock products that they have to sell at cost, or more likely, at a loss. Now they're essentially screwed and have to find ways to get the rest of the money to pay that business loan back.

That situation is a real risk for a group buy organizer. But if the organizers aren't willing to take on that risk, then they shouldn't be running a group buy. If a bank isn't willing to give a 20-something with no experience a business loan, what sense does it make for the community provide a loan with zero collateral and no interest?

I believe it also comes down to the consumer. Understanding what GB/project seems risky, what red flags to look for, and researching before you buy is really important. Does this mean that you can eliminate ALL risks? Absolutely not. Even if all signs point to a successful and well-ran GB, that doesn't mean that no issues will arise.

That's the thing: every group buy and project is a huge risk for customers. I don't think it's valid to write this situation off as customers not seeing red flags or not doing enough research: as I said in a previous post, if I join a group buy that doesn't look like it's going to reach MOQ, and the vendor then buys out the rest of MOQ and then some, what can I as a customer do about that? Perhaps we just need to stop the practice of providing interest free loans to randos on the internet.

Another thing to mention is that a lot of the people designing and running gbs have jobs outside of the hobby, Geon is a perfect example of this, the keyboarding part of his Machining business is a side thing, because he was a hobbyist. And he even puts risk when running gbs, take the original F2-84 where he lost $110000 (or at least had to pay that amount) replacing the production errors, let alone the risk he has when selling the instock frog tkl. And he can afford to pay those mistakes off, so Imagine a person who works a 9-5 job, who has to put so much risk, having debt that they can't pay which could ruin them financially, on top of the amount of issues that could go wrong.

It's good that Geon could afford to take that risk and lose that money. That's the standard we need to hold all group buy organizers to: if they don't have the capital to lose, they shouldn't do a group buy.

[codecoffeecode]

...and now https://www.mechsandco.com has gone private. Perfect.

[Morbii]

Man…

[evidentLEE]

Really hope these a holes face legal ramifications.

[Rhienfo]

That's the thing: every group buy and project is a huge risk for customers. I don't think it's valid to write this situation off as customers not seeing red flags or not doing enough research: as I said in a previous post, if I join a group buy that doesn't look like it's going to reach MOQ, and the vendor then buys out the rest of MOQ and then some, what can I as a customer do about that? Perhaps we just need to stop the practice of providing interest free loans to randos on the internet.

While I still think that GBs are the only way for some individuals to do runs, I do actually agree with this mostly, while you can avoid projects that have red flags pretty well, something can always come up which may result to losing you money. Seemingly ok projects from people who have done successful runs/reputable members have exit scammed before (Moon TKL r2 and Rukia r2 as examples), but I don't think that means that we can devalue the entirety of the system.

It's good that Geon could afford to take that risk and lose that money. That's the standard we need to hold all group buy organizers to: if they don't have the capital to lose, they shouldn't do a group buy.

I think it's more nuanced than that. Some projects lasted for years before they were finally done, which meant that capital that was earned later on could be used in finishing all of the units, I'm not too well versed with what happened with the 280 by noxary, but that took some people 4 years before people got their units in hand, obviously only trust designers who have had a history of doing this though. Also geon is always the exception to everything from capital to pricing of boards, we cannot hold someone who runs a big cnc machine to people who probably don't even have 10000 that can be spend compared to 11 times that amount.

I understand where you come from, but in a lot of cases it's just impossible for some people to do in stock runs, there are positives and negatives to both instock and group buys, and completely disregarding one isn't practical. I know this is the most filmsy thing I've said yet but without smaller makers doing group buys, we wouldn't have a lot of the cool things that are in this hobby, and pay-walling a lot of small designers from making designs that they really want to make will stifle the innovation in the hobby and a lot of people, like people who enjoy ergo boards, custom boards that use topre/ec etc from truly enjoying the hobby.

...and now https://www.mechsandco.com has gone private. Perfect.

Really hope these a holes face legal ramifications.

Yeah it's all over for them. Bankruptcy is basically an inevitable at this point. I have heard several people talk about a lawsuit (including in this thread) so it seems that it may happen. I think they could be charged because it seems that they were mishandling funds in order to make more money through extras, then the money wrung dry and they couldn't pay for it all (it's like a weird ponzi scheme or something). But I don't know I'm not a laywer so maybe not or maybe I read the info wrong.

[skulls]

While I still think that GBs are the only way for some individuals to do runs

damn hear me out tho.  what if a company or even a seller did an interest check, gauged how popular it may be, take a risk and MAYBE get too many and sell the extras anyway, all the while protecting the customer and not asking for money up front. it might even create this concept called ethical business practices. crazy. could you imagine? but yeah, group buys, only way to do business.

[Rhienfo]

damn hear me out tho.  what if a company or even a seller did an interest check, gauged how popular it may be, take a risk and MAYBE get too many and sell the extras anyway, all the while protecting the customer and not asking for money up front. it might even create this concept called ethical business practices. crazy. could you imagine? but yeah, group buys, only way to do business.

I just never said that they were only way to business, like even in the quote it says "SOME INDIVIDUALS" so maybe stop trying to put words in my mouth. I said that there was a reason for group buys. I would love for every project to be in-stock and I literally said that vendors and larger businesses in this hobby should be doing gbs when they can, and not taking advantage of GBs but it's just not reasonable. Keyboard margins aren't that big, so even some vendors don't have liquid to do 100 unit runs of a mid range custom, individuals would definitely not, so they would have to take a loan (which they may not even be able to) and if something goes seriously wrong when manufacturing, they have could have to replace things and put them in the red and I do not want to see any individual go into debt that they can't pay and lose so much because of keyboards. There are valid criticisms of the GB model, and I agree with a lot of them, but saying that everyone can just do instock runs, it's just not feasible, it's more nuanced than that.

[elpepe21]

Watching people join the Mechs & Co. Discord

[CustomerSupport]

Thankfully, I seem to be a "lucky" one, as I only have one $200 set on the hook with M&Co. For me, that money was spent a long time ago, and isn't something I desperately need at the moment; that may not be the case for others. And yet, $200 is not an insignificant amount of money.

Shame on M&Co. for their sh*tty business practices and outright theft. If the set ever does arrive, that will be enough.

Whatever the state of the hobby was before this row, these bad actors have helped degrade it by either over-extending themselves, or practicing outright fraud.

[dvorcol]

On July 27 u/Cobertt posted a community update on Reddit - https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/15bl163/psa_mechs_co_transparency_update_next_steps/

Thanks to JonoColwell for posting this Reddit link in the [GB] GMK Regal thread.  Otherwise I never would have seen it.

[tjcaustin]

Well, I wasn't expecting this to be my first post in *checks notes* 6 years, but...

I had basically treated this and a few other GBs I got into at the beginning of the year like old times.  Send money, forget, be surprised when I get tracking.  So I was completely clueless when I got a refund about 15 minutes ago from Mechs & Co for my MW Hayastan order with the note "We don't have enough stock to fulfill your order".

Fifteen minutes of digging later, and ooof.

So, did they have the sets made and just not pay?  Or did the $ from Hayastan get redirected to other buys and if you went through them instead of one of the other vendors, is it good luck on the used market?

[Oni]

Perhaps there is some sliver of hope? I got an email earlier this afternoon stating that my WoB essentials order was cancelled by Mechs & Co and refunded. I did not pursue this on my own, nor did I do a chargeback as I used a debit card. I do not see the money in my bank account yet, but will update if this actually goes through or not. Mechs & Co still has my money from one other group buy, so who knows how many they will refund.

[evidentLEE]

Just received this email this morning.... I'm willing to pay cannon keys shipping, but I'm not giving M&C one more dime.

[kiyoboard]

Just received this email this morning.... I'm willing to pay cannon keys shipping, but I'm not giving M&C one more dime.
(Attachment Link)

Can you actually open that form? It doesn't seem to be working for me

[evidentLEE]

Just received this email this morning.... I'm willing to pay cannon keys shipping, but I'm not giving M&C one more dime.
(Attachment Link)

Can you actually open that form? It doesn't seem to be working for me

Mine didn't work either.

[Beesley]

There's an issue with that link, visit the subreddit and there's a post there with a working link

[Afresh]

Just received this email this morning.... I'm willing to pay cannon keys shipping, but I'm not giving M&C one more dime.
(Attachment Link)

Can you actually open that form? It doesn't seem to be working for me

Here you go: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSe39q8DAEQYp6DwSx-W78cT-X2tW7jtdiwGcgwjcVkyKghsJA/viewform?pli=1

[evidentLEE]

Just received this email this morning.... I'm willing to pay cannon keys shipping, but I'm not giving M&C one more dime.
(Attachment Link)

Can you actually open that form? It doesn't seem to be working for me

Here you go: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSe39q8DAEQYp6DwSx-W78cT-X2tW7jtdiwGcgwjcVkyKghsJA/viewform?pli=1

Thanks for posting this! 

[skulls]

If you reach out to Cannon Keys specifically they will confirm and also send you a working link. good luck.

[skulls]

Thankfully, I seem to be a "lucky" one, as I only have one $200 set on the hook with M&Co. For me, that money was spent a long time ago, and isn't something I desperately need at the moment; that may not be the case for others. And yet, $200 is not an insignificant amount of money.

Shame on M&Co. for their sh*tty business practices and outright theft. If the set ever does arrive, that will be enough.

Whatever the state of the hobby was before this row, these bad actors have helped degrade it by either over-extending themselves, or practicing outright fraud.

accurate and necessary... nature is healing.

[kiyoboard]

A while back they cancelled 2 of my orders, but today I got email from PayPal that they didn't complete the refund process.

[Oni]

A while back they cancelled 2 of my orders, but today I got email from PayPal that they didn't complete the refund process.

It's been a week since one of my orders was cancelled, and no refund has hit on my end either. I'm assuming they probably have no intention of actually refunding anybody, unless more time needs to be given for processing.

[Puddsy]

A while back they cancelled 2 of my orders, but today I got email from PayPal that they didn't complete the refund process.

It's been a week since one of my orders was cancelled, and no refund has hit on my end either. I'm assuming they probably have no intention of actually refunding anybody, unless more time needs to be given for processing.

i know a couple of people who have had refunds hit so it's probably a mix

[Morbii]

I had a refund hit, but it was for a single penny I couldn't get back while doing a dispute via Paypal, probably due to some weird rounding error.

[codecoffeecode]

I just watched the video that Taeha Types uploaded today with rmendis, a moderator at the MechMarket Discord. I think the video has interesting points that are informative for new people in the hobby as well folks that have been here for a while. I won't regurgitate every point (the video is an hour long), but I'll just highlight a couple of points that resonated with me:

rmendis brought up that minimum order quantities (MOQs) used to serve as a sort of "evolutionary mechanism" (his term) that could help weed out sets that were not popular enough to survive group buy. As more people (and more money) entered the hobby, some vendors or organizers simply bypassed ("bastardized", rmendis said) this weeding mechanism by just throwing money at the MOQ, and worrying about demand later. This practice delays the failure: if there isn't at least minimum demand a product now at a certain price, it's likely that there won't be minimum demand for product at a year or two later at a higher price.

But more importantly, rmendis brings up the idea of a more centralized and voluntary code of conduct or set of standards for vendors. I think something like that would be a great step forward for the hobby and a huge net positive for everyone. A standard of conduct, perhaps denoted by some sort of branding (something akin to B Corporation branding), could help customers distinguish between vendors that are willing to publicly commit to things like transparency, consistent communication, & responsible business practices, and those that are not interested in the scruples of such commitments.

[Rhienfo]

So, did they have the sets made and just not pay?  Or did the $ from Hayastan get redirected to other buys and if you went through them instead of one of the other vendors, is it good luck on the used market?

Sorry I missed this. It really depends, it seemed that the sets they paid for got made, but they couldn't accept them because the company had imploded at this point, so MW are going to sell them on their website. Obviously the sets that weren't paid for aren't being made, and for other companies they were working with like gmk idk, I'm theorising because I don't know everything but I would imagine that orders would get split across vendors if they were fully paid and manufactured, and the vendors would get refunded if the sets haven't been made but they have been fully paid/partially paid for (this may be why they have some money to refund people, as it seems that some people have been refunded according to people in the thread)

[involuntarysoul]

the whole point of GB is to try reach high MOQ and thus decrease the cost for the consumer, we now know from Nord, a 2000+ MOQ GMK cost only $67 for a base set, however vendors still charge $120+ for even high MOQ sets, so what is the point of GB again? Why do we take the risk without any reward?

[skulls]

so what is the point of GB again? Why do we take the risk without any reward?

because poggers consume relentlessly and with maximum effort. stop participating and it goes away, then vendors will have to be like every single other shop on the planet and not pass the risk and failures on the customer. have you seen the reddit AIDS about this whole thing? they literally can't help themselves and will shill out another 300 bux if mechs and co asks them to. it is pathetic.

[Rhienfo]

the whole point of GB is to try reach high MOQ and thus decrease the cost for the consumer, we now know from Nord, a 2000+ MOQ GMK cost only $67 for a base set, however vendors still charge $120+ for even high MOQ sets, so what is the point of GB again? Why do we take the risk without any reward?

where did you get this number from, not saying you're wrong but even with high moqs prices shouldn't be that low, it still costs something to manufacture and injection moulding is a costly process with a lot of waste (That doesn't excuse gmk pricing for the record, base kits are alright at higher moq but child kits are so overpriced, especially for the quality control which has dipped). I know more about keyboard pricing, and when looking at that even with a several thousand moq that's met the machining still costs a certian amount to machine due to factors like complexity and just simply the cost of raw materials, like the vega was unlimited and still costed around 300 for a reason.

because poggers consume relentlessly and with maximum effort. stop participating and it goes away, then vendors will have to be like every single other shop on the planet and not pass the risk and failures on the customer. have you seen the reddit AIDS about this whole thing? they literally can't help themselves and will shill out another 300 bux if mechs and co asks them to. it is pathetic.

I know you haven't checked reddit because most of the people commenting are completely against group buys and will never support one (also why call it aids? idk that's really weird to me). Also as I said before they are necessary for smaller vendors and individuals as they don't have the upfront capital (especially in a post covid hobby where already low vendor margins are even lower). This whole discussion is how we can make gbs safer to customers, which was the whole point of the taeha types video which I agree with pretty much all of the solutions that were discussed, and saying that we should only have instock products and phase out gbs, isn't productive and realistic at all.

[Puddsy]

the whole point of GB is to try reach high MOQ and thus decrease the cost for the consumer, we now know from Nord, a 2000+ MOQ GMK cost only $67 for a base set, however vendors still charge $120+ for even high MOQ sets, so what is the point of GB again? Why do we take the risk without any reward?

where did you get this number from, not saying you're wrong but even with high moqs prices shouldn't be that low, it still costs something to manufacture and injection moulding is a costly process with a lot of waste (That doesn't excuse gmk pricing for the record, base kits are alright at higher moq but child kits are so overpriced, especially for the quality control which has dipped). I know more about keyboard pricing, and when looking at that even with a several thousand moq that's met the machining still costs a certian amount to machine due to factors like complexity and just simply the cost of raw materials, like the vega was unlimited and still costed around 300 for a reason.

mkultra sold their sets for "factory price" when they went under, at $67

which as the keyset designers among us are aware, is well below GMK wholesale price

[codecoffeecode]

I do have to say I agree (on this particular point) with Rhienfo: group buys aren't going anywhere. In the video, rmendis compared group buys to drugs: "Why don't drug addicts just stop taking drugs?" There's simply no incentive to change their model. It would mean having to invest their own money in products without upfront capital from customers.

Because group buys aren't going anywhere anytime soon, it's important to figure out how we can hold vendors to higher standards when they do run GBs. And I think designers and prospective customers can help to kickstart this process by making it a point to only work with vendors that are willing to commit to certain standards, including transparency around escrow (if any) for the funds collected, when payment is made to manufacturers, etc.

[Rhienfo]

Because group buys aren't going anywhere anytime soon, it's important to figure out how we can hold vendors to higher standards when they do run GBs. And I think designers and prospective customers can help to kickstart this process by making it a point to only work with vendors that are willing to commit to certain standards, including transparency around escrow (if any) for the funds collected, when payment is made to manufacturers, etc.

yeah this should be the priority. And while I do think they are necessary to some extent, I do think should be trying to minimize the amount of gbs run when possible (Companies like drop and kbdfans, who still do preorders and gbs sometimes should not be doing them period), but for now this should be the objective, to make the current systems safer before dealing with other things later.

I think we can come to a point where most vendors/businesses can do instock runs but the hobby is so unpredictable at this point and I think we will need to wait before everything stablises. At least this gives us time to make gbs safer for customers or at least vet vendors so that another mech&co doesn't happen in the future.

Just to clarify I am not defending group buys or any businesses that runs them. I am just clarifying why they are necessary to this hobby and why it isn't realistic just to make everyone run instock runs, especially at the moment.

mkultra sold their sets for "factory price" when they went under, at $67

which as the keyset designers among us are aware, is well below GMK wholesale price

Thanks puddsy, I had a feeling that $67 was way to low for what gmk was making them for but I haven't ever run a keyset so I needed clarification.

[break]

the whole point of GB is to try reach high MOQ and thus decrease the cost for the consumer, we now know from Nord, a 2000+ MOQ GMK cost only $67 for a base set, however vendors still charge $120+ for even high MOQ sets, so what is the point of GB again? Why do we take the risk without any reward?

where did you get this number from, not saying you're wrong but even with high moqs prices shouldn't be that low, it still costs something to manufacture and injection moulding is a costly process with a lot of waste (That doesn't excuse gmk pricing for the record, base kits are alright at higher moq but child kits are so overpriced, especially for the quality control which has dipped). I know more about keyboard pricing, and when looking at that even with a several thousand moq that's met the machining still costs a certian amount to machine due to factors like complexity and just simply the cost of raw materials, like the vega was unlimited and still costed around 300 for a reason.

mkultra sold their sets for "factory price" when they went under, at $67

which as the keyset designers among us are aware, is well below GMK wholesale price

I disagree with the word "well" here, at least for a set selling 2000+ units in 2021.

[involuntarysoul]

mkultra sold their sets for "factory price" when they went under, at $67

which as the keyset designers among us are aware, is well below GMK wholesale price

$67 is what mkultra paid for each base kit, what do you mean by "well below wholesale price"?

[Puddsy]

the whole point of GB is to try reach high MOQ and thus decrease the cost for the consumer, we now know from Nord, a 2000+ MOQ GMK cost only $67 for a base set, however vendors still charge $120+ for even high MOQ sets, so what is the point of GB again? Why do we take the risk without any reward?

where did you get this number from, not saying you're wrong but even with high moqs prices shouldn't be that low, it still costs something to manufacture and injection moulding is a costly process with a lot of waste (That doesn't excuse gmk pricing for the record, base kits are alright at higher moq but child kits are so overpriced, especially for the quality control which has dipped). I know more about keyboard pricing, and when looking at that even with a several thousand moq that's met the machining still costs a certian amount to machine due to factors like complexity and just simply the cost of raw materials, like the vega was unlimited and still costed around 300 for a reason.

mkultra sold their sets for "factory price" when they went under, at $67

which as the keyset designers among us are aware, is well below GMK wholesale price

I disagree with the word "well" here, at least for a set selling 2000+ units in 2021.

that's fair actually, first half of 2020 (went back and checked) numbers at that MOQ probably aren't super far off -- that's just before the plastics shortage really got going -- but i haven't really seen them go down that low except on sets with a 5k+ MOQ. frankly we should be glad they don't charge double

plus, i haven't looked at a GMK quote sheet in a fair bit anyway, i've mostly been out of the hobby since dark sky shipped, save for a couple of small discord groups and local meetups

[Rhienfo]

Another thing is that both the designer and the vendors mark up the price, assuming that both designer and vendor take a 50% markup (which is the average for a business) It's around 130, which is around what nord was being sold for. It's most likely lower for both (especially a designer's markup probably isn't 50%) and it's on a case by case basis (some designers have ran sets with no profit involved to get prices down) but I hope this clarifies a bit onto why keycap prices are a lot (if I'm wrong correct me, I have never ran a set so take this with a big grain of salt)

[Puddsy]

Another thing is that both the designer and the vendors mark up the price, assuming that both designer and vendor take a 50% markup (which is the average for a business) It's around 130, which is around what nord was being sold for. It's most likely lower for both (especially a designer's markup probably isn't 50%) and it's on a case by case basis (some designers have ran sets with no profit involved to get prices down) but I hope this clarifies a bit onto why keycap prices are a lot (if I'm wrong correct me, I have never ran a set so take this with a big grain of salt)

margins on keysets are rarely 50% but they have increased in recent years for sure. and many designers do not get anywhere close to 50 percent. depends on a lot of things, some could be getting that much.

but you're in the ballpark

[andreiborisov]

I think the community also needs help contacting another US vendor: Project Keyboard. There is no response from their support and all of their recent GMK GBs seem to be in limbo...

[cthalupa]

the whole point of GB is to try reach high MOQ and thus decrease the cost for the consumer, we now know from Nord, a 2000+ MOQ GMK cost only $67 for a base set, however vendors still charge $120+ for even high MOQ sets, so what is the point of GB again? Why do we take the risk without any reward?

There's a lot of costs that are not covered in that $67. You have to pay for the freight shipping of the kits (This got VERY expensive during COVID - I'm sure you saw all the news about ocean shipping being absurd, containers being hard to get space on, etc.), you have to pay for a place to hold the kits, you have to pay for someone to pick and pack orders, you have to pay someone to manage all of the inventory and the shipping status, etc. etc. etc. You have to pay for all of the not-set-specific business overhead, marketing, and all of that as well.

And then you still have to make enough money for it to be worth the time for the vendors and designers to actually put forth the effort. Even if you want to make an argument that design should be exclusively a passion project and designers shouldn't be making money (which I disagree with) it is not feasible for designers to handle self-fulfillment at the scale this hobby has grown to, and vendors are first and foremost businesses.

In-stock prices are still generally higher than group buy prices, so you pay more for minimizing risk and wait. But the bigger benefit, at least to me, is that consumers taking on risk means that we get to see things get created that never would have otherwise. If you think we would have such a wide diversity of sets (even just restricting it to sets that made MOQ without massive buyouts) in a purely in-stock world, I am 100% confident that you are very wrong. When you are designing for and deciding to carry an in-stock set you simply will not, on average, be willing to take the same level of risk that you would for a GB.

[Rhienfo]

margins on keysets are rarely 50% but they have increased in recent years for sure. and many designers do not get anywhere close to 50 percent. depends on a lot of things, some could be getting that much.

but you're in the ballpark

Yeah I know that designers specifically don't get that much, I'm sorry if it came across that way. I remember looking into it and seeing that. Weirdly enough I have seen at least one example of a designer getting a 50/50 split of profits apparently (there was a really weird reddit post with the red alert designer claiming that he received that much for it, with mech&co which is touchy, it got removed because it was a load of nothing, but I thought that was interesting enough to mention. Didn't know that vendors didn't get 50% as I'd imagine they would be the same as a regular business, I guess that's why extras were a lot more profitable to these vendors (if that's what you are saying, correct me if that's not what you were saying)

There's a lot of costs that are not covered in that $67. You have to pay for the freight shipping of the kits (This got VERY expensive during COVID - I'm sure you saw all the news about ocean shipping being absurd, containers being hard to get space on, etc.), you have to pay for a place to hold the kits, you have to pay for someone to pick and pack orders, you have to pay someone to manage all of the inventory and the shipping status, etc. etc. etc. You have to pay for all of the not-set-specific business overhead, marketing, and all of that as well.

And then you still have to make enough money for it to be worth the time for the vendors and designers to actually put forth the effort. Even if you want to make an argument that design should be exclusively a passion project and designers shouldn't be making money (which I disagree with) it is not feasible for designers to handle self-fulfillment at the scale this hobby has grown to, and vendors are first and foremost businesses.

Yeah that's something that I hadn't considered for some reason (I don't run keysets don't judge me too hard there ) yeah logistics is expensive, especially for international vendors since they come from Germany, on top of it having to be profitable. I guess that's why they banked on extras so much, as profit margins probably weren't that high.

[codecoffeecode]

I think the community also needs help contacting another US vendor: Project Keyboard. There is no response from their support and all of their recent GMK GBs seem to be in limbo...

Yeah, now that Quakemz is no longer affiliated with them, it seems there's no one left in the Discord that communicates on behalf of Project Keyboard.

I actually started avoiding PK as a vendor after watching the GMK Modern Ink GB thread: they displayed behavior that Hali brought up early in this thread:

At week three of the group buy, their base kit numbers were only about 1/5 of the MOQ:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=114591.msg3087051#msg3087051

But then during the last week of the group buy, PK (or other vendors) appeared to have bought out the remaining 80%:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=114591.msg3090493#msg3090493

Once I realized that they bought out the MOQ, I opted not to join the GB. After all, there should be plenty of extras, right?

Right?

[Rhienfo]

I think the community also needs help contacting another US vendor: Project Keyboard. There is no response from their support and all of their recent GMK GBs seem to be in limbo...

Yeah, now that Quakemz is no longer affiliated with them, it seems there's no one left in the Discord that communicates on behalf of Project Keyboard.

I actually started avoiding PK as a vendor after watching the GMK Modern Ink GB thread: they displayed behavior that Hali brought up early in this thread:

At week three of the group buy, their base kit numbers were only about 1/5 of the MOQ:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=114591.msg3087051#msg3087051

But then during the last week of the group buy, PK (or other vendors) appeared to have bought out the remaining 80%:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=114591.msg3090493#msg3090493

Once I realized that they bought out the MOQ, I opted not to join the GB. After all, there should be plenty of extras, right?

Right?

Yeah I've heard that project keyboard was a nightmare, popping in an out of sending stuff. It's no guarantee that you will get your orders, so I would recommend avoiding them and charging back if you can. I think they are a sinking ship like mech&co, seems likely so you should try to get out if you can.

[involuntarysoul]

But then during the last week of the group buy, PK (or other vendors) appeared to have bought out the remaining 80%:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=114591.msg3090493#msg3090493

Once I realized that they bought out the MOQ, I opted not to join the GB. After all, there should be plenty of extras, right?

Right?

big assumption that they actually paid the invoice, in reality all they did was to keep the 100ish poor soul's GB payment for themselves

[Rhienfo]

big assumption that they actually paid the invoice, in reality all they did was to keep the 100ish poor soul's GB payment for themselves

I don't think he was implying that.

Semi related but considering that it will be hard to get in contact, now that discord comms are gone at this point (or at least according to codecoffeecode) The only other active way will be to go through their support, which of course can just be ignored. I have sent an email about the updates of gmk modern ink (I haven't bought the set, just know that is a set that is in production and hasn't seen good consistent updates, from both project keyboard and the runner. I'll notify when I can if they send a response.

I also would want to hear people who have sent them emails to see if they actually respond in a reasonable amount of time

[codecoffeecode]

big assumption that [Project Keyboard] actually paid the invoice [for GMK Modern Ink]

Oh, I don't assume they paid ****, but they did imply in the thread that the set would be produced despite not meeting the MOQ three weeks into the GB.

discord comms [for Project Keyboard] are gone at this point

I'm not a regular in that Discord, but I pop in every few months for updates. The PK Discord isn't locked or anything like that, but it just doesn't seem to have any official representative of PK to provide updates. I don't have any orders with them so I have not submitted any support tickets through their website.

[Rhienfo]

I'm not a regular in that Discord, but I pop in every few months for updates. The PK Discord isn't locked or anything like that, but it just doesn't seem to have any official representative of PK to provide updates. I don't have any orders with them so I have not submitted any support tickets through their website.

Oh yeah all of this is just speculation of course, I don't even think they have proper support tickets or whatever, the email I sent was through their contact page and it was just to see personally if would get support on a query that I would potentially have (especially on a project that doesn't have many updates), can't do it right now, but when I can I'll hop into the discord just see if regular updates are given or someone can mention it here as well if they are it in now.

[SwitchKeys]

Modern Ink is done and will ship out in November. I can't speak for PK unfortunately.

[Rhienfo]

Modern Ink is done and will ship out in November. I can't speak for PK unfortunately.

Thanks for saying that. The set was probably already paid for and I know there is a document that shows the current gmk queue, so you could probably check that for updates (I'll link it when I can). I sent that email just to see if they would respond specifically. But it's cool that at least modern ink is at least paid for.

[Puddsy]

Modern Ink is done and will ship out in November. I can't speak for PK unfortunately.

Thanks for saying that. The set was probably already paid for and I know there is a document that shows the current gmk queue, so you could probably check that for updates (I'll link it when I can). I sent that email just to see if they would respond specifically. But it's cool that at least modern ink is at least paid for.

That document isn't circulated by GMK iirc, so it would include sets that are "in the queue" but not paid for. Unless GMK has started circulating their queue, which would be a big change.

[Rhienfo]

That document isn't circulated by GMK iirc, so it would include sets that are "in the queue" but not paid for. Unless GMK has started circulating their queue, which would be a big change.

Oh yeah you're right, cause we know of the paid/unpaid stuff by Mech&Co from the original post. I haven't read it in a while so probably forgot about that. I seriously doubt things have changed but will check when I can just in case. Thanks

[Rhienfo]

https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/15ut6fi/psa_project_keyboard_mechs_co_chargebacks_and/?share_id=tqma9NHPn7lq5_df_SxtE&utm_content=2&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_source=share&utm_term=1

New PSA and update for mech&co. Recommend reading the full thing but I will tldr it for each vendor

Project Keyboard - distinct lack of communication from project keyboard, especially it's owner. No updates on orders nor have items shipped. Owner of project keyboard hasn't been active on platforms as well. Mods are telling people to avoid project keyboard, if you have an open order, know your consumer rights which includes a charge back. They don't have the same data on which sets are paid/unpaid like mechs&co.

Mechs&co - they have been disputing chargebacks after their shopify has been reopened, including on projects that were not paid for/cancelled. Have also ignored cannonkeys saying that the would help fufil GMK terror below by not charging back existing customers. Info on the possible steps in the thread and mods will continue to press mechs&co for disputes.

Aetrernus - File a chargeback for this vendor if you still can, as communications have stopped since march 2023, some group buys/orders they ran the manu hasn't been paid and orders haven't been placed. People have tried to step in to at least fufill orders but the owner has no intention of helping or fulfilling orders.

Also the communication thing for project keyboard seems to track as I have not had a response on the email I sent, I'll update this thread if it changes and they respond.

[skulls]

also why call (reddit) aids? idk that's really weird to me
...
suggesting the retail model, that has literally worked for other vendors, isn't productive and realistic at all.

lmao

[Rhienfo]

also why call (reddit) aids? idk that's really weird to me
...
suggesting the retail model, that has literally worked for other vendors, isn't productive and realistic at all.

lmao

Ok you actually need to shut up, you are putting words in my mouth to try and prove a stupid point. You lack actually no nuance and all and cannot for the life of me understand anything more than something black and white. Just because something worked for someone else doesn't mean that it will work for you, like that is the most obvious thing and you still can't comprehend that for some reason.

Being this reductive as I have said before doesn't help anyone, and acting like this helps precisely 0 people, cause while I think vendors should be doing in-stock runs, especially large ones (once everything has stabilised and cooled down cause vendors are not in a good situation) it is not reasonable to expect everyone to do instock, as I have explained several times at this point.

I agree that we should be leaning in to more instock orders but at the end of the day 100% of projects will not be Instock, and acting like that can be is stupid. You can choose not to join gbs (I personally will be only joining one more keyboard gb from a person whose getting it manufactured by geon, though If I ever join a keycap gb it will be through daily clack who I trust) and that's fine, but just be reasonable about this, please.

[codecoffeecode]

More bad vendor/manufacturing news 

Linking the Bias factory incident document as well: https://baionlenja.notion.site/Bias-factory-incident-9e4489b9a4e14b2dbb05038138ebc5a9

I do have to say I'm disappointed that the manufacturer wasn't named in the document, which clearly outlines extortionate behavior. If this manufacturer has been sending threats to Baionlenja, they should name them and send their information to authorities; why allow the manufacturer to continue business as usual with no heat, allowing the next unsuspecting member of the hobby to be scammed?

[Rhienfo]

Also want to make a post about Noxary since that is related to the topic, if you don't know he was an maker who has a bunch of outstanding gbs werent fufilled. The person running it Xondat, ghosted not giving any comms and even privated his spotify when someone on the discord found it (however I do feel it's understandable if he had his real name/following people who weren't involved in order to hide them)

He released an update saying that refunds will be issued for all outstanding gbs except the xrf and instock orders.

Even with the refunds. I would still recommended to chargeback if you can just in case he doesn't follow through with what they said. I have suspcions that he may not have the money (which would total around of a bit under 500 us grand) espically since he has bought luxury items like a porsche 911. If you are waiting for anything that Xondat said that he would ship, just make sure you have your consumer protections which include chargebacks. Stay safe everyone.

Image of the message.

[Rhienfo]

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=121348.msg3171199#msg3171199

Posting the new update regarding mech&co here. Please read this as a set you bought may be involved.

[codecoffeecode]

It is super cool that Novelkeys is doing this for the community; this honestly seems like a ton of work to do for no repayment beyond good will in the hobby.

I know that Milkyway put the sets destined for Mechs & Co. for sale on their own website a while back, so I'm glad most folks will be able to get their GMK sets.

[Rhienfo]

Putting it here as well cause we were talking about it, project keyboard got a court order to dissolve and to end operations (thanks bachoo who was were I found this from)

[blakstealth]

Was able to get Affirm to refund my order for GMK Regal. Despite my order being over their 60 day period, they were kind enough to look into my claim as a one time courtesy.

[Rhienfo]

Was already posted in the gmk nord thread but thought would post the reddit thread here.

Reddit thread saying that MK Ultra has shut down

pretty self explanatory, just want to add that apparently he had no money to refund people, so chargeback immediately as you likely won't be getting the items you ordered or your money back from him directly.

[dvorcol]

Was already posted in the gmk nord thread but thought would post the reddit thread here.

Reddit thread saying that MK Ultra has shut down

pretty self explanatory, just want to add that apparently he had no money to refund people, so chargeback immediately as you likely won't be getting the items you ordered or your money back from him directly.

Just want to add that, while this MKUltra situation sucks, it was first announced in April.

The Reddit post linked above says that in MKUltra’s April 2023 Reddit update "the store owner (Erik) announced that the shop would be closing down as soon as possible, citing health reasons" and contains a link to that post - https://www.reddit.com/r/mechmarket/comments/12a1q1o/store_factory_price_on_mx_keycaps_mkultra_is/

The first Q&A point in Erik's April Reddit post:

"But why? This doesn't make any sense and isn't fair to people who paid full price.
Prior to making the decision to mark everything to factory price, I had contacted a number of vendors to see if they would buy out inventory or the entire operation. 100% of those vendors refused and most gave the impression they would rather eat popcorn and wait for fireworks. While this could be paranoia or trying to justify the decision, one of those vendors actually said as much and the others had similar vibes. At the end of the day I decided it should be the customers who benefit from the store closing, rather than benefit other vendors."

In addition to the April GMK Norde post mentioned above, this shutdown was brought up more recently in the GMK Swiss Addon Kit thread - https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=114029.msg3172413#msg3172413

[lando langston]

This service is really not good. You need to be informed in advance before anything happens.
​

[DaaDaa]

I wanted to thank Novelkeys for the amazing job that they have done. for me this hobby is dead and i would have been completely out if it wasnt for novelkeys. I just got all of my MW heresy order including the artisan and i had 100% given up on it. thank you novelkeys and you got a customer for life.