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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Debeucci on Sun, 15 December 2013, 02:10:42
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Hello all,
First time on the forum. Hi!
I've been OCDing about getting a Topre keyboard and I'd love to query the forum for their thoughts. Right now, I have an IBM Model M keyboard and love the tactile and clicky sounds but was hoping for something a little less ugly-looking for my library. My wife prefers I switch to something quieter.
I'm interested in getting either a HHKB or a Realforce and was wondering which one is better for my lifestyle?
I am a professional SFF author and will write upward of 300-400k words a year. Basically, I am on the keyboard a hell of a lot. On top of that, I do game, though mostly dota/rts/rpg games. I'm too old and my reflexes are too slow for FPS.
I'm not a programmer but I love the form factor of the HHKB but I'm not sure if the keyboard is conducive to 16 hour writing sessions. I also worry about going so minimalist since I've always had a keyboard with numpads/arrows though I rarely use them. I'm not too worried about adjusting to a new keyboard and plan to get them non-printed keycaps either way (do they go non-printed for the Realforce?).
Unfortunately, there isn't a place I can test this out so any input would be appreciated.
Thanks!
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Hello all,
First time on the forum. Hi!
I've been OCDing about getting a Topre keyboard and I'd love to query the forum for their thoughts. Right now, I have an IBM Model M keyboard and love the tactile and clicky sounds but was hoping for something a little less ugly looking for my library. My wife prefers I switch to something quieter.
I'm interested in getting either a HHKB or a Realforce and was wondering which one is better for my lifestyle?
I am a professional SFF author and will write upward of 300-400k words a year. Basically, I am on the keyboard a hell of a lot. On top of that, I do game, though mostly dota/rts/rpg games. I'm too old and my reflexes are too slow for FPS.
I'm not a programmer but I love the form factor of the HHKB but I'm not sure if the keyboard is conducive to 16 hour writing sessions. I also worry about going so minimalist since I've always had a keyboard with out a numpad/arrows before, though I rarely use them. I'm not too worried about adjusting to a new keyboard and plan to get them non-printed keycaps either way (do they go non-printed for the Realforce?).
Unfortunately, there isn't a place I can test this out so any input would be appreciated.
Thanks!
If you're writing a lot, you'd probably do best with the lighter TKL or full-size Realforce keyboards. They come in a rare 30g, or the more common 45/55g. Considering how much you write, about as much as I type, in fact, using the lightest switch helps, so I'd go with the 45g if you're getting a Topre. An MX Brown will serve you similarly as well.
The HHKB is very light, but you may find that the extra bit of hassle carrying a TKL is worth having the extra functionality.
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To be honest, I didn't even think about the gram weight. Was leaning toward the heavier 55g because I thought it'd be closer to my model M. I was also leaning toward the 3 different key weights. I wish there was a way I could test these keyboards before dropping a couple bills down on them.
And by chance does anyone know of a bluetooth version coming out one of these days? I know KBTalking has a TKL bluetooth coming out Q1 2014, but I was hoping to find a topre version.
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I would say that you're one of the few use cases that truly benefits from variable weighting. If bling is not important to you, then the variable 87u wins.
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If you type a lot and you have the $, you can't go wrong with HHKB. I think the form factor is really nice especially if you need to go place to find inspiration as you type your story.
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If you are accustomed to a Model M, then most Topre boards will feel very light.
I switch between Model M and HHKB. Model M is the largest and heaviest (weight and switch) board I have, and HHKB is the lightest (weight) and smoothest (switch) board I have.
If you have been using standard layout boards for a long time, HHKB might be a bit of a culture shock, as it lacks dedicated arrow keys, home, end, page up/down and function keys. All are accessible via the Fn key though, although there may be a potentially long period of retraining.
If you want to try Topre, RealForce would probably be better. If you don't need the numeric keypad, or the Enter key thereon, go for a TKL board - you will still save some desk space over the Model M.
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If you want to try Topre, RealForce would probably be better. If you don't need the numeric keypad, or the Enter key thereon, go for a TKL board - you will still save some desk space over the Model M.
Agreed, if TS has been using and is used to the Model M layout (standard full sized board), then a Topre RealForce would be the way to go. No need to adjust to the Fn layered keys of the HHKB, so adjustment period would be next to none....other than the feel of the Topre. Since TS has been using the Model M, perhaps a 55G RealForce board would be more suitable. I have a Model M, HHKB 2 and a couple of RealForce, including the 103UB-55G and it's by far my fave Topre keyboard.
Honestly speaking, even the 45G on my Type Heaven and the two HHKB 2's feel so much better to type on (for me anyway) than any Cherry MX boards I have.....and I have keyboards that are all Red, all Black, all Brown, all Blue, all Green, all Clear and all White.
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Variable is quite easy on the fingers when it comes to typing..but for gaming it is terrible IMO. The light keys are really sensitive and that makes for some really bad mistakes during a game...
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Hmm if you really type THAT much then i would also suggest the HHKB - while the realforce is good like others have mentioned may not be great for gaming due to variable keys and the uniform keys may be a bit too stiff for typing constantly.
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HHKB .
Just cuz it feels better
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Realforce 55g uniform is the way to go. Hhkb is fun but the fn later can be maddening when typing long papers, articles etc.
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Realforce 55g uniform is the way to go. Hhkb is fun but the fn later can be maddening when typing long papers, articles etc.
When typing long papers what do you need to use that's under the f keys anyways? I never really use the f keys besides the random thing here and there.
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For a writer, I would shoot for the Realforce. I know when I am doing a lot of writing, a lot of editing is involved and this means arrow keys will be used. More specifically, CTRL + (an arrow key) to navigate quickly through sentences/paragraphs. This is a three key operation on the HHKB; adding a key to the normal sequence every time. It could add up on long sessions.
A similar example I can compare this to is the Nintendo Wii experience. At first, it was very cool to swing the remote to pitch, bowl, etc, but after a while, I just wanted to hit a damn button.
This also leads to the question of would you rather move your hand to the normal arrow cluster or adapt to the HHKB style -- all preference.
Also, I know you didn't mention it, but there is also the Leopold FC660c as a topre option.
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Realforce 55g is where it's at
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Also, I know you didn't mention it, but there is also the Leopold FC660c as a topre option.
You should definitely consider this keyboard. It's one of my favorites, and many seem to agree that it's the best 45g Topre experience. Love the layout aswell; make the arrow keys more accessible than a normal TKL without the fn layer hassle of the hhkb.
Good luck!
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HHKB Pro 2 or Realforce 55 if you want dedicated arrows
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You are going to get all these replies that are personal opinion. Good luck sorting that out.
I have Model M both SSK and 103key and realforce 87u TKL in 55g and 45g and a Leopold FC660c (45g). IMHO the 55g Topre is definitely heavier than model m. It is tiring for me but then I suffer RSI. The Leopold is my favorite to type on followed by M. Expect to have to byultiple keyboards to find the ONE. It's part of the fun.
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I don't have any experience with Topre, but from looking at the force graphs, it looks like the lower force keys would do better at preventing bottoming out and may be more ergonomic since the peak force (neglecting bottoming out) of the lower force keys is before it bottoms out but after the actuation, while on the higher force keys, the peak force is before the actuation with less force until it bottoms out.
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HHKB Pro 2 or Realforce 55 if you want dedicated arrows
HHKB dosent have dedicated arrows D:
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HHKB Pro 2 or Realforce 55 if you want dedicated arrows
HHKB dosent have dedicated arrows D:
Implicit parens:
(HHBK) or (Realforce 55 if you want dedicated arrows)
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HHKB Pro 2 or Realforce 55 if you want dedicated arrows
HHKB dosent have dedicated arrows D:
Implicit parens:
(HHBK) or (Realforce 55 if you want dedicated arrows)
Or a comma (and spelling enhancement): HHKB, or RealForce 55 if you want dedicated arrows.
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HHKB Pro 2 or Realforce 55 if you want dedicated arrows
HHKB Pro 2 or Realforce 55 if you want dedicated arrows
HHKB dosent have dedicated arrows D:
You guys are probably confusing HHKB Pro2 with HHKB Pro JP. Pro JP has dedicated arrow keys as well as arrow keys on the Fn layer (like Pro2 does but Pro2 does not have dedicated dedicated arrow keys alone). I am not familiar with Realforce lines so I can't comment much on the Realforce keyboards. I thought Realforce keyboards are available in either full sized or TKL which virtually always has dedicated arrow keys.
One thing of a concern with the OP is that going from IBM Model M keyboard (being a full sized keyboard) to 60% (found on HHKB) for instance would be quite a shift. If the OP is using say for instance a kishsaver or SSK it maybe nice to give HHKB a go.
In instances like that I would prefer to suggest Realforce, first you can always get a full sized keyboard from Realforce somewhere if needed. Second is that HHKB is not cheap and apart from a bit of a learning curve which is very specific to own capabilities. If portability is a must and you wouldn't mind spending a bit more HHKB is the way to go otherwise Realforce for instance would be ideal otherwise.
Just my 0.02.
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HHKB Pro 2 or Realforce 55 if you want dedicated arrows
HHKB dosent have dedicated arrows D:
Implicit parens:
(HHBK) or (Realforce 55 if you want dedicated arrows)
Or a comma (and spelling enhancement): HHKB, or RealForce 55 if you want dedicated arrows.
I guess I'm a programmer first and writer second, making me quick to reach for the parens :).
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If I had to choose, 45g Silent, but considering those aren't manufactured, Variable Silent is my favorite topre.
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Go with Type-S or Silent version. Topre is not so quiet, in particular for others except for yourself. I've ever gone mad at colleague's HHKB and quit the job :)
BTW, what is SFF? SFF = Spontaneously ****ing Funny?
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sff
Sometime urban dictionary is ambiguous to me. You are comedy script writer? If so very interersting. Great profession!
I always think I need irony, sarcasm, funniness, good rethoric on my post. Yeah, I know, I know, I need to learn good syntax and vocabulary before that :) hehehe
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Hey guys,
Thanks for all the advice. The more I read about everything, the more I realize I do love my Model M. Why am I trying to find something different? Maybe I should just continue my search for a Model M13, at least until I've tried a topre and it lures me away. Part of me wants to try a topre just to see if I end up loving it more than the M. However, I'm not sure if it's worth risking 2-300 in the event I don't like it.
Thanks again.
Btw, SFF stands for Science Fiction/Fantasy. I'm a Tor and Angry Robot author.
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Have you considered the dental floss mod? It should quiet your Model M without changing the tactile feel of it, thus winning some points with your wife and not losing any points with your fingers.
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Hey guys,
Thanks for all the advice. The more I read about everything, the more I realize I do love my Model M. Why am I trying to find something different? Maybe I should just continue my search for a Model M13, at least until I've tried a topre and it lures me away. Part of me wants to try a topre just to see if I end up loving it more than the M. However, I'm not sure if it's worth risking 2-300 in the event I don't like it.
Thanks again.
Btw, SFF stands for Science Fiction/Fantasy. I'm a Tor and Angry Robot author.
A good attitude to take in my opinion. However, some advice, if you'd like to buy a Topre (or any other board for that matter), you can sell it here on the forums for pretty much what you bought it for minus a little bit for shipping.
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Hey guys,
Thanks for all the advice. The more I read about everything, the more I realize I do love my Model M. Why am I trying to find something different? Maybe I should just continue my search for a Model M13, at least until I've tried a topre and it lures me away. Part of me wants to try a topre just to see if I end up loving it more than the M. However, I'm not sure if it's worth risking 2-300 in the event I don't like it.
Thanks again.
Btw, SFF stands for Science Fiction/Fantasy. I'm a Tor and Angry Robot author.
A good attitude to take in my opinion. However, some advice, if you'd like to buy a Topre (or any other board for that matter), you can sell it here on the forums for pretty much what you bought it for minus a little bit for shipping.
I see people say this all the time but it doesn't always hold true, anymore people only want really good deals seems like, so YMMV on the buy to try and resell idea.
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Most people don't buy Topre because they don't know what they'd feel like; and the ones who know what they feel like probably won't buy them because they already have one. So there's not much of a market for them.
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BTW, what is SFF? SFF = Spontaneously ****ing Funny?
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sff
SFF typically stands for Small Form Factor
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Realforce 55g uniform is my favorite by far. I love my HHKB but it's nowhere near as solid feeling. I think I just prefer plate mounted boards. I want to get my hands on a Leopold FC660C to compare with the HHKB.
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Realforce 55g uniform is the way to go. Hhkb is fun but the fn later can be maddening when typing long papers, articles etc.
When typing long papers what do you need to use that's under the f keys anyways? I never really use the f keys besides the random thing here and there.
Home and End....it's freaking maddening because I always confuse them.
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Realforce 55g uniform is the way to go. Hhkb is fun but the fn later can be maddening when typing long papers, articles etc.
When typing long papers what do you need to use that's under the f keys anyways? I never really use the f keys besides the random thing here and there.
Home and End....it's freaking maddening because I always confuse them.
Haha I picked that up just the other day.. Home and End is K and , So it would be Fn+K and/or Fn+, I get it confused along with Page Up and Page Down which is Fn+L and Fn+.
Anyway having a photo of HHKB as a background image helps. :p
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I understand all the people suggesting variable weight and 30 grams because of the workload, but he's been doing 400k words per year on a model m, I think he knows what he wants at this point.
I have the 55g topre and I'll tell you here and now the switch is incredible. But really if you're buying a keyboard for its looks...
I mean you're a professional writer, I want to have to be rude but why would you put form ahead of function really. And even though we love our Realforces they're not that pretty in the grand scheme of things.
If typing on the model M is the best typing experience for you, I don't know why you'd want to change. The 55g Topre is very very different to blues and springs, and the weighting doesn't really convey how much easier they can be to press just because of Topre's unique feel. While taste may vary I feel if you spent that much money and got a 30 gram switch you'd feel disappointed instantly, that is very, very easy to press switch.
I just wouldn't change if you love the M. Maybe find a friend who can show you their Topre or join one of the switch mail routes to get a sample switch. If you just want a board because it's quieter that's a different story, 55g is definitely much quieter but honestly you can't make anything dramatically quieter if you're typing at any sort of pace unless you go for silenced boards, either modded or the Silenced Realforce which is designed in factory with the silencing O rings. A 55g or a 45g at full pace will still make a considerable racket because you're typing fast, if you get what I mean.
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I understand all the people suggesting variable weight and 30 grams because of the workload, but he's been doing 400k words per year on a model m, I think he knows what he wants at this point.
I have the 55g topre and I'll tell you here and now the switch is incredible. But really if you're buying a keyboard for its looks...
I mean you're a professional writer, I want to have to be rude but why would you put form ahead of function really. And even though we love our Realforces they're not that pretty in the grand scheme of things lets be honest.
If typing on the model M is the best typing experience for you, I don't know why you'd want to change. The 55g Topre is very very different to blues and springs, and the weighting doesn't really convey how much easier they can be to press just because of Topre's unique feel. While taste may vary I feel if you spent that much money and got a 30 gram switch you'd feel disappointed instantly, that is very, very easy to press switch.
I just wouldn't change if you love the M. Maybe find a friend who can show you their Topre or join one of the switch mail routes to get a sample switch. If you just want a board because it's quieter that's a different story, 55g is definitely much quieter but honestly you can't make anything dramatically quieter if you're typing at any sort of pace unless you go for silenced boards, either modded or the Silenced Realforce which is designed in factory with the silencing O rings. A 55g or a 45g at full pace will still make a considerable racket because you're typing fast, if you get what I mean.
Great first post. Welcome to geekhack
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sometimes you don't know what you're missing until you try it. just sayin'
i fail to see how anyone can call a topre board not silent after using a model m.
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sometimes you don't know what you're missing until you try it. just sayin'
i fail to see how anyone can call a topre board not silent after using a model m.
I dont really care about the noise the keyboard makes.
Only the switch feel is important to me
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While typing with the M is currently the best for me, I'm always interested in improving my typing experience. Just because I love one thing doesn't mean I'm not willing to try something to see if I might like it more. I don't think I'm choosing form over function. I'm not saying I plan to choose a worse typing experience for it to look cool, I'm saying I don't know if I will like it better and am interested in finding out. It's not like I'm getting a keyboard with lights and cute keycaps after all.
And while we're on the point of aesthetics, I disagree. I think people who make a living with their keyboard might care about aesthetics even more. After all, I'm staring at the thing upward of 16 hours a day. I almost live in my library, so yeah, I want the stuff I work on to not only work the way I like, but also look nice too.
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While typing with the M is currently the best for me, I'm always interested in improving my typing experience. Just because I love one thing doesn't mean I'm not willing to try something to see if I might like it more. I don't think I'm choosing form over function. I'm not saying I plan to choose a worse typing experience for it to look cool, I'm saying I don't know if I will like it better and am interested in finding out. It's not like I'm getting a keyboard with lights and cute keycaps after all.
And while we're on the point of aesthetics, I disagree. I think people who make a living with their keyboard might care about aesthetics even more. After all, I'm staring at the thing upward of 16 hours a day. I almost live in my library, so yeah, I want the stuff I work on to not only work the way I like, but also look nice too.
If you've been staring at your keyboard. You are typing wrongly
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While typing with the M is currently the best for me, I'm always interested in improving my typing experience. Just because I love one thing doesn't mean I'm not willing to try something to see if I might like it more. I don't think I'm choosing form over function. I'm not saying I plan to choose a worse typing experience for it to look cool, I'm saying I don't know if I will like it better and am interested in finding out. It's not like I'm getting a keyboard with lights and cute keycaps after all.
And while we're on the point of aesthetics, I disagree. I think people who make a living with their keyboard might care about aesthetics even more. After all, I'm staring at the thing upward of 16 hours a day. I almost live in my library, so yeah, I want the stuff I work on to not only work the way I like, but also look nice too.
If you've been staring at your keyboard. You are typing wrongly
I stare at mine, but mainly to enjoy the keycaps :)
And to relieve eye strain from looking at the screen all the time.
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While typing with the M is currently the best for me, I'm always interested in improving my typing experience. Just because I love one thing doesn't mean I'm not willing to try something to see if I might like it more. I don't think I'm choosing form over function. I'm not saying I plan to choose a worse typing experience for it to look cool, I'm saying I don't know if I will like it better and am interested in finding out. It's not like I'm getting a keyboard with lights and cute keycaps after all.
And while we're on the point of aesthetics, I disagree. I think people who make a living with their keyboard might care about aesthetics even more. After all, I'm staring at the thing upward of 16 hours a day. I almost live in my library, so yeah, I want the stuff I work on to not only work the way I like, but also look nice too.
If you've been staring at your keyboard. You are typing wrongly
I agree.
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Any Topre keyboard you get will be a lot quieter than a model M...the comparison isn't even close.
If you're planning on using it for gaming, definitely look at a uniform as the variable will be annoying. If you rest your hands on the keys a lot, you'll also find the light keys very annoying...but as far as comfort is concerned, the variable does make a lot of sense for typing...It is a lot more noticeable when you go back to a uniform topre from a variable and can feel how much harder you need to work.
But that said, you're on a M right now so you won't miss what you don't know..and the uniform ones will feel a bit more familiar with a keyboard that will already feel different to what you're used to.
I'm not sure going down to a 60% is the right move for people right away..they look cool..but really it does take a bit of an adjustment...If I were to pick one keyboard that I'm going to be using all the time for any situation and using it a lot, I don't think it would be my HHKB...I really like it, it feels great, it works great, it looks cool, it is really convenient for a lot of different situations..but would I be happy with it for everything? Probably not...
I think most people suggesting 55g Topre for you are probably spot on considering you're coming from a model M..but 45g is, IMO, a bit more comfortable...Unless you really slam your keys hard, they'll still be very tactile...but definitely a lot lighter than what you're used to at the moment and that may throw you off...
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I have just come from a Unicomp Customizer (aka Classic) buckling spring keyboard (which replaced an IBM Model M) to a brand new Topre Realforce XF01T0 (white, 104 keys, variable force from 30g to 45g except the 55g Esc key). It is actually a very comfortable transition and my fingers enjoy not having to press so hard. The keys on the Topre are still high compared to a membrane keyboard and the profile is not dissimilar to the Unicomp. There's a nice cushioned feel to everything, but it's not at all indistinct.
So I had been a little concerned that this might feel too light after getting used to buckling springs, but it is actually fine. The Topre is still new so I don't know what it will be like in the long term, but my first impressions are very positive - it's really a nice feel, and although the action is light it feels luxurious and well defined in a way that membrane keyboards never do. This one is not silenced and most of the noise is created when the keys pop back up. But I am using it in an office and my coworkers have not killed me yet - it's a whole lot quieter than the buckling springs.
It's definitely one of the better keyboards I have used and I would recommend it if you think it's ever worth putting money into a keyboard. The build feels even more solid than the Unicomp, if that's possible.
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I have just come from a Unicomp Customizer (aka Classic) buckling spring keyboard (which replaced an IBM Model M) to a brand new Topre Realforce XF01T0 (white, 104 keys, variable force from 30g to 45g except the 55g Esc key). It is actually a very comfortable transition and my fingers enjoy not having to press so hard. The keys on the Topre are still high compared to a membrane keyboard and the profile is not dissimilar to the Unicomp. There's a nice cushioned feel to everything, but it's not at all indistinct.
So I had been a little concerned that this might feel too light after getting used to buckling springs, but it is actually fine. The Topre is still new so I don't know what it will be like in the long term, but my first impressions are very positive - it's really a nice feel, and although the action is light it feels luxurious and well defined in a way that membrane keyboards never do. This one is not silenced and most of the noise is created when the keys pop back up. But I am using it in an office and my coworkers have not killed me yet - it's a whole lot quieter than the buckling springs.
It's definitely one of the better keyboards I have used and I would recommend it if you think it's ever worth putting money into a keyboard. The build feels even more solid than the Unicomp, if that's possible.
Not to be mean, but most people around here aren't really fans of Unicomp's quality. A good quality Cherry to compare with would be a Filco, Ducky, or something of the sort.
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You are going to get all these replies that are personal opinion. Good luck sorting that out.
I have Model M both SSK and 103key and realforce 87u TKL in 55g and 45g and a Leopold FC660c (45g). IMHO the 55g Topre is definitely heavier than model m. It is tiring for me but then I suffer RSI. The Leopold is my favorite to type on followed by M. Expect to have to byultiple keyboards to find the ONE. It's part of the fun.
I want to clarify my earlier post. The Topre 55g is not heavier to press but it fatigues me faster than typing on Model M. I am probably typing with more force to overcome the initial resistance on the topre and therefore bottoming harder. The 55g is growing on me. It is a great board.
Michael
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The 55g or 45g uniform Realforce will suit you well. I find that when typing papers I really enjoy the layout of the TKL vs the 60% HHKB. If stiffer springs are your thing then the 55g is the way to go. I don't think the 45g is too light, but that's just personal preference.
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The 55g or 45g uniform Realforce will suit you well. I find that when typing papers I really enjoy the layout of the TKL vs the 60% HHKB. If stiffer springs are your thing then the 55g is the way to go. I don't think the 45g is too light, but that's just personal preference.
IMO 45g are perfect. 55g are too heavy
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Most people don't buy Topre because they don't know what they'd feel like; and the ones who know what they feel like probably won't buy them because they already have one. So there's not much of a market for them.
Yea, but the ones who took the leap of fate and got one know the greatness and usually don't turn back :)