I was hoping for Sindarin + Klingon :)For ULTIMATE novelty I think we should have elvish, klingon and aurebesh all on one key
Please no ANSI legends!seconded.
Please no ANSI legends!
It would be based on Tolkien's Sindarin or Quenya.
...
Quenya is sharper, Sindarin is rounder, but they are very close.
It would be based on Tolkien's Sindarin or Quenya.
...
Quenya is sharper, Sindarin is rounder, but they are very close.
Quenya and Sindarin are languages, not writing systems ("alphabets").
The most common "alphabet" for elvish languages is called Tengwar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tengwar). It is used for both Sindarin and Quenya, hence the similarities between text in those languages. ;)
You would however have to choose which language to use for textual legends on modifiers, if you are going to use text at all. Personally, I think that it would be nice to have some nice symbols. Arrows that look like arrows you can shoot, etc.
Personally, I think that it would be nice to have some nice symbols. Arrows that look like arrows you can shoot, etc.
Love the brown and green!
Oh oh...
My wallet doesn't like where this is heading :D
I agree on keeping it as professional as possible, but I believe we have to make something distinctive (ie: no CCnG clone)
the options are:
1) full keyboard, PBT, dye sub, alpha tengwar/quenya + elvish symbols
2) full keyboard, ABS, double shot, alpha standard ansi + elvish symbols
3) symbols only ABS, double shot (just make some special elvish keys)
I would love a set, but I'm afraid I won't have much money :<
IIRC, pad printing from SP is actually pretty expensive. That and no one wants it.
I might try to make a test layout and ask SP for a quote, but I'm afraid there won't be enough interest for a group buy.
IMHO, such a keyboard would be useful -- well, "interesting -- to more people than an "academically-correct" version.
Sorry for the pedantry, but what do other Tengwar users think about this?
IMHO, such a keyboard would be useful -- well, "interesting" -- to more people than an "academically-correct" version.
Sorry for the pedantry, but what do other Tengwar users think about this?
Totally agree.
Admittedly it's more an aesthetic whim than the need of a keyboard to write in elvish.
Some of the fonts in the site you linked are not available, I've found this http://tengwar.art.pl/tengwar/fonty.php which seems to have them all. Some are really nice.
Good job, Ron! And now I fear even more, that after all of your work in mocking it up, this won't come to be...
Who can find out how much the actual cost to dyesub the whole set would be? Regardless of what it is, just a quote.
I can tell you the keyboard script means nothing to me personally, though it is very interesting, and a very nice plus for those it does interest. For me, it would be just that, an Otaku capset. I don't know enough (read: anything) about Elvish, only that it looks nice and IMO would fit well on a keyboard. That is why I would pay for a set, as I'm sure others in this very thread feel as well.
This set would be wicked on one of 7bit's ridiculously small toy keyboards (http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/hypermicro-and-hypermini-keyboard-t4185.html).
Who can find out how much the actual cost to dyesub the whole set would be? Regardless of what it is, just a quote.
I may be confused, but what constitutes 59-keys?
That's what I was thinking. And what of a modifier set? I would assume it would essentially double the price.
Ron, is that with the whole set being the same? What about if the modifiers were a different color? (Sorry if I'm being nitpicky here...)
If the price isn't any different for that, I think if we could shoot for 50 sets, it would be reasonable. If we hit 75 :| even better!
Do those arrows have any relation to the language? Or are they some of your choosing?
Escape: nuitha-, nuithol [prevent from coming to completion] | awartha-, awarthol [abandon] | drega-/dreg-, dregol/dregel [flee]
Control: tortha-, torthol
Super/winkey: orchal
Alt: seidia-, seidiol [set aside]
Shift: ortha-, orthol
Tab: laba-, labol (part.) or labad (ger.) [hop]
Enter: minna-, minnol (not exactly the meaning we are looking for... but still it means litterarly "enter")
Home: bâr
End: meth
Ins: nestag-, nestagel
Del: dag-, dagel [slay]
Pg up: ambenn [up]
Pag dn: dadbenn [down]
Pause: dar-, darel
Page break: breitha-, breithol
Backspace: drava-, dravol [hew] | trevad-, trevadel [traverse]
After a pretty extensive research this is what I've come up with. Terms ending with "-" are verbs followed by a suggested verbal form. I'm using participle which seems pretty elegant, but we could use other verbal forms. For some keys I had to be "creative" :)Code: [Select]Escape: nuitha-, nuithol [prevent from coming to completion] | awartha-, awarthol [abandon] | drega-/dreg-, dregol/dregel [flee]
Control: tortha-, torthol
Super/winkey: orchal
Alt: seidia-, seidiol [set aside]
Shift: ortha-, orthol
Tab: laba-, labol (part.) or labad (ger.) [hop]
Enter: minna-, minnol (not exactly the meaning we are looking for... but still it means litterarly "enter")
Home: bâr
End: meth
Ins: nestag-, nestagel
Del: dag-, dagel [slay]
Pg up: ambenn [up]
Pag dn: dadbenn [down]
Pause: dar-, darel
Page break: breitha-, breithol
Backspace: drava-, dravol [hew] | trevad-, trevadel [traverse]
25 sets $107.65 per set
50 sets $94.15 per set
75 sets $89.65 per set
100 sets $87.40 per set
Plus a one-time set-up cost that I think will be $50.
- Ron | samwisekoi
Also I'd like to make some custom graphics for ESC, arrows, capslock and possibly the 3 top right buttons. One of them could be the lidless eye, another a ring and so on. If we have to do this, we have to do it right!
good point Hash, even though we are talking Sindarin... which it Tolkenian. Anyway I agree on removing LOTR from the equation, the main point remains though (ie, make some elfish graphics).
Ron, would you send me the file you are working on so I could add some iconography?
Um, sure. Do you have a Linux (Debian, Ubuntu, Mint) computer that can run Inkscape? If not, just create SVG graphics in anything and send them to me and I'll put them in.
But mostly I don't think pixellated bitmaps would add to the design.
"new line" would be good for "return", but the "enter" key is actually now used as a confirmation not just to go to a new line (like in old typewriters). thoughts?
Well, technically it is the "Return" key. The "Enter" key is on the ten key pad. (I happen to have a full-size keyboard plugged, so I could even check the scan codes.)
All of the above is probably too pedantic for anonymous moose and his ilk (elk?). I'd like to check various translations to see how they look when set in Tengwar. Coolness counts, especially with custom iconography!
p.s. I noticed last night that thanks to you, I am starting to be able to read in Tengwar -- about as well as my five year old son can "read" in English.
p.p.s. Arch Linux? Geez. I sincerely apologize for the "(Debian, Ubuntu, Mint)" remark. And I also thank you for not getting all "GNU plus Linux" on me.
p.p.p.s. So would Randy call you an Elf, a Man, a Dwarf, or a Wizard? You're looking pretty Elf-ish from where I'm sitting.
Actually... I have "enter" on my Filco tenkeyless. Anyway, I agree on using the most visually appealing solution.
Is there anything else apart from elves?
Go run xev on that key, my man.
Will all the modifiers be one color?Quote from: samwisekoiYes.
For example base keys in white with green legends and modifiers in pale green with brown legends.Quote from: SPThen no, there is no additional charge for this.
Thanks!
Melissa
Who will produce the keys?
I'm really interested in anything related to dwarves or elves.
We should bang out a color scheme while we're here, before going into GB status.
Is there an image of those?Yes.
Ah, yeah, guilleguillaume is quite right. We need to choose from the PBT colors, which are different.
Yes. ABS can't be dyesubbed and PBT can't be doubleshot. The price tiers are different too.
Some tests for modifier keys. They are all vector of course. I don't know which is the dye sub resolution but I believe we have to use the less complex designs. Please send more designs to take inspiration from, I'll try to vectorize them
Otherwise tbh I don't think we'll actually get off the ground.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avuNsyMooXo&feature=player_detailpage#t=23s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avuNsyMooXo&feature=player_detailpage#t=23s)
Would it be possible to take the font and move the characters to reflect this set, calling it something else? (Just thinking out loud in case that's a deciding factor for some that we can work past. I like the look of Ron's. The other looks too busy in places.)
I like the idea of this set. Are we still trying for a full double-shot set? If so, I think gold (like maybe the YBZ) on dark gray/black would look very cool.
I'm working on a different layout. The exceptional work of Ron is based on an elvish-english transliteration proposed by Tolkien (and others). My idea is: how would it be a keyboard if designed by elves themselves? Fortunately we have a classifications of elvish characters, my layout is based on this classification. You may consider this an elvish-colemak keyboard. It's not finished, there are a couple of issues that should be solved, but I'd like to receive your feedback.
It's beautiful. Very nice job with bilateral symmetry. Frankly, a layout like this should have been the standard all along for straight Sindarin typing. Which mode did you use?
- The characters above 6 through 9 are probably too tall to print. Certainly the 8/z key is. The pale blue box on the SVG file is the printable area per SP.
- I don't see the curl modifiers (above 3-6 on my most recent.) I found them annoying to place; did you omit them on purpose?
- The decimal/duodecimal placement options were also annoying, and I see what you did and why. Still, there is room for 10 and 11 after the zero, and IMHO they would complete the number row nicely. (They are also a perfect fit for the function key row.)
Have you consulted the TP elves?
p.s. Do you have that background in SVG, even as a linked file? Also, do you have it for 104-key layouts? Could you send me a copy of either/both, please?
okay here attached a pretty close to final elvish layout. It still misses the modifier keys, functions and so on, but I'd like to finalize the base layout for now. Thoughts? The mode used is Tehtar which misses some symbols (and so making the layout easier to do).
okay here attached a pretty close to final elvish layout. It still misses the modifier keys, functions and so on, but I'd like to finalize the base layout for now. Thoughts? The mode used is Tehtar which misses some symbols (and so making the layout easier to do).
okay here attached a pretty close to final elvish layout. It still misses the modifier keys, functions and so on, but I'd like to finalize the base layout for now. Thoughts? The mode used is Tehtar which misses some symbols (and so making the layout easier to do).Show Image(http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=35842.0;attach=7762;image)
Very nice. I only had time for a quick look, but it all looks good.
I could not find the under-dot modifier, however.
Also, I assume you are using the "o" to show placement of the modifiers as Dan Smith did in his guides. Perhaps when we get to dye-sub, they could be in an off-color as he did in the text.
I've never used spherical caps, a) because I don't like the look of them and b) I don't know what they feel like because I've never used them...
I'm not saying I would be opposed, because I guess I need to try them sooner or later, but...
Though the more I look at my orange lambda keys, the more I think I won't like them. But if others approve, then so be it.
I've never used spherical caps, a) because I don't like the look of them and b) I don't know what they feel like because I've never used them...
I'm not saying I would be opposed, because I guess I need to try them sooner or later, but...
Though the more I look at my orange lambda keys, the more I think I won't like them. But if others approve, then so be it.
I've never used spherical caps, a) because I don't like the look of them and b) I don't know what they feel like because I've never used them...
I'm not saying I would be opposed, because I guess I need to try them sooner or later, but...
Though the more I look at my orange lambda keys, the more I think I won't like them. But if others approve, then so be it.
I think they're talking about DCS profile from SP that looks like those pics I'm attaching. I really love them.
maybe we should just be brave and choose a layout :) Dan Smith's is a pretty complex layout it would need a whole set by itself. I can't see it very compatible with the other two.
both mine and Ron's are fictional keyboard layouts, I don't know how much sense it would make to have them exchangeable. It would make sense to have one of them compatible with Dan Smith's, maybe. I'd try to keep to keep things simple (and cheap) or we are not going to have this finalized. Also, is a flat layout appealing to all? Don't we risk to actually have less backers?
not yet finished, but we are getting closer. sorry this is taking forever :P
here is some background. I am torn between making a working layout and a fancy layout. Nobody is going to write in elvish with this, so the goal is just to make a believable elven keyboard.
The central part of the keyboard is composed by the main tengwars in order of relevance from left to right, from top to bottom. The rune on the Q key is the first elvish letter/sound (tinco), the one under the . key is the last letter (wilya). This makes sense from an elvish point of view, the letters are placed in a logical order.
All the runes are consonants. The vowels are always represented with the small dots/accents over or under the consonants (and sometimes in between).
Here comes the first issue. The position of the vowel on the consonant is not fixed. If you have 2 vowels for examples, you put one over and one under the consonant. That's why the Dan Smith's font has so many vowels around, BUT I thought that elves would have developed the automatic vowel positioning directly from the software (reread this sentence, how odd is it? :) ).
When the elf writes the software automatically places the vowel in the best position, the elf typist doesn't have to worry about it. That's why I used only the 6 main vowels (and not all the possible combinations like in the Dan Smith's font).
Another interesting thing is that elves actually use tengwar to count (not numbers). The first letter/sound/rune is as we said "tinco", so "tinco" is also used as number 1. Later they added the numbers like we know them, so it would make completely sense to place the numbers over the first 11 elvish characters. Doing so we would free the whole first row where we could place additional sounds.
I decided to keep the layout as you see it because it looks better and it loosely resembles an ansi keyboard.
Over or under some characters you see a dash or a tilde. Those are special characters that can be triggered with the shift key. They are not positioned randomly, but in the most sense full position based on their meaning.
Lastly there are some sounds missing, that's why I'm implementing a pure elvish keyboard without contaminations coming from Tolkien's son or later tries to make a phonetically English-compatible language. This is an elvish keyboard for elves.
how this makes some kind of sense.
Sidenote question: Are you a native Italian-speaker designing an Elvish character set for an English-language keyboard? Good on you, mate!
I would very much like to be able to type in Tengwar/English.
So it is probably time to sort out the other keys and colors. We can then come back to refine the legend set further.
Okay some keys need revision but we are almost there (I don't like the menu key, and maybe the 3 upper right useless keys, also F-x in the function row has little meaning in elvish)
May I suggest some things?
May I suggest some things?
You must!
I'd say, let's keep the small changes between us (via email)
it also works with gray+green+lavender, but we could also use light-gray instead of red and a more colorful legend
[...]Show Image(http://i54.tinypic.com/adyfbs.jpg)
Ordered from SP
Quote from: cgoldberg;290907love these vintage doubleshot cherry caps:[...]Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/bNjWh.jpg)
I'm trying to find something similar in shape... spherical that fits cherry mx switches.
anyone have a set for sale or know where to get a board I can pull them from?
I also have a set of Siginature Plastics ones (not for sale), they are sadly not as good. They attract dirt like nothing else. If you guys do setup an order for it, I suggest not doing it in white/beige. They have a more rough texture than their normal keycaps and due to the spherical shape the dirt and grime gets "rubbed" into them.
Hard to explain, but not nice.
I love the green one but don't like at all the red touch.Agreed on all counts. Also would like to see lavendar, per Ron.
It looks amazing.
Excellent work!
Could we see it with (a) green specials, and (b) green with lavender specials, please?
By the way in case someone is wondering how those DSA profile keys look like with better pictures:
By the way in case someone is wondering how those DSA profile keys look like with better pictures:
If we are going to have a flat layout keycaps I believe we have to rethink the whole keyset to make keys swappable
what colors would you suggest?
regarding the additional keys, we can try but I doubt there will be enough interest.
And I can always buy 33 blank keycaps and have WASD shoot their laser at them for the Tenglish caps.Can you send WASD black ABS (or even PBT) caps for them to laser for you? It doesn't have to be their keys?
And I can always buy 33 blank keycaps and have WASD shoot their laser at them for the Tenglish caps.Can you send WASD black ABS (or even PBT) caps for them to laser for you? It doesn't have to be their keys?
wondering what people think of all beige layouts... I saw a little hate around but I actually like them :)
Personally, I like the green and pearl the best followed by the pearl, pebble and green. Really great work overall.
Are we going to be reaching out to any Tolkien fan communities to gather support for this? I'll bet some of the truly hard core would buy an MX keyboard simply to have something to put this set on.
More color combos. Green and pearl
The first Green and Pearl color is completely irresistible for me!
Sadly that the dragon Esc doesn't blend in for my humble opinion...
if this what come out final, I propose to make a few more option for the Esc Key....
other text or symbol or logo for the set.
More color combos. Green and pearl
If only this could be done for IBM keys without having to cut things up. :(
If only this could be done for IBM keys without having to cut things up. :(
Does SP make keycaps for Model Ms? If so we could look into that for this set? I'd be interested for sure.
If only this could be done for IBM keys without having to cut things up. :(
Does SP make keycaps for Model Ms? If so we could look into that for this set? I'd be interested for sure.
They do not. If Unicomp ever does custom dye-sub we could give them the vector file to make Model M keycaps.
- Ron | samwisekoi