Try this. Place your fingers in home position, then strike a key on the number row. Did your whole hand have to move or could you reach it just by moving that finger? Now reach 2 rows down. Would it be easier to reach if that row was a half a key closer? Shortening the spacing .15" could be done with Cherry switches and would be even easier with Alps style switches (of course standard keycaps wouldn't work), and that would bring the bottom and number row almost a half a key closer.
I'm currently planning a new keyboard design and it occurred to me that the standard 3/4" key spacing may not be ideal. Too closely spaced might feel cramped but larger than necessary requires unnecessary reaching and moving from home position.
I think that my hands are probably average size for an adult man. When I place my fingers tight together they fall about a third of a key short of home position spacing. That makes the current width of key spacing great for me and likely adequate for all but the biggest paw; I wouldn't want to mess with that. My interest is in the vertical spacing.
The typical fingertip is wider than it is thick (nail to pad). That makes me question the need for an unnecessarily tall (front to back) cap.
Try this. Place your fingers in home position, then strike a key on the number row. Did your whole hand have to move or could you reach it just by moving that finger? Now reach 2 rows down. Would it be easier to reach if that row was a half a key closer? Shortening the spacing .15" could be done with Cherry switches and would be even easier with Alps style switches (of course standard keycaps wouldn't work), and that would bring the bottom and number row almost a half a key closer.
One thing I have learned in my two year quest for the perfect ergonomic set up is that our needs are not the same; what works for one may not help another. Because of that I'm curious, do you think you would benefit by having tighter columns? Besides lack of keycap availability in that size, what are the downsides of a closer vertical spacing?
Good point. Here is what I'm working on.
(Attachment Link)
The blue represents full size keys.
I decided not to wait for opinions. I know I will benefit from it so I started making keycaps today.
Here are pictures of a rough mock up I assembled before latest changes
(Attachment Link) (Attachment Link)
I'm currently planning a new keyboard design and it occurred to me that the standard 3/4" key spacing may not be ideal. Too closely spaced might feel cramped but larger than necessary requires unnecessary reaching and moving from home position.Spacing between fingers don't matter too much. It could even be larger, like on vintage TRON keyboards.
Good point. Here is what I'm working on.
(Attachment Link)
The blue represents full size keys.
I decided not to wait for opinions. I know I will benefit from it so I started making keycaps today.
Here are pictures of a rough mock up I assembled before latest changes
(Attachment Link) (Attachment Link)
Spacing between fingers don't matter too much. It could even be larger, like on vintage TRON keyboards.:p i like the keyboard :p
I think that spacing between rows, between index finger columns and between pinky columns could benefit from being smaller, though. That is especially true for the pinky keys.
If I were making a flat columnar keyboard from scratch, I would increase the column offsets a bit. Look at this M-system layout:
(Attachment Link)
By the way, really nice thumb keys! Sculpey?
By the way, really nice thumb keys! Sculpey?
Good point. Here is what I'm working on.
(Attachment Link)
The blue represents full size keys.
I decided not to wait for opinions. I know I will benefit from it so I started making keycaps today.
Here are pictures of a rough mock up I assembled before latest changes
(Attachment Link) (Attachment Link)
Good point. Here is what I'm working on.
(Attachment Link)
The blue represents full size keys.
I decided not to wait for opinions. I know I will benefit from it so I started making keycaps today.
Here are pictures of a rough mock up I assembled before latest changes
(Attachment Link) (Attachment Link)
I agree with Oobly and Findecanor. Spacing between the hands would preferably be adjustable and I, for one, would like bigger separation between the hands than the picture. But don't let something like that demoralize you, since smaller key spacing is priority #1.
Hadn't seen this thread until now. Kurplop -- I think you're on to something. I hate typing numbers on a normal keyboard because only my middle finger is long enough to hit them without moving my whole hand (so I can type 9 and 3 correctly but that's it). I had gone down the path of the 40%-like board where there is no number row and you type numbers with a function layer. But if you were able to make keys that were a little shorter, as you describe, that could be a very nice alternate solution. I've been aiming towards a setup where I don't have to move my hands of wrists at all -- all keys would be within easy reach of the "home row" position. I love your thumb keys too. It makes perfect sense to put them on an arc like that since your thumb moves in an arc.
I understand your desire for separated halves, I use to think I would prefer that also. When I started experimenting with my ErgoDox however, I discovered that tenting and splaying was all I needed to correct my pronation and ulnar deviation concerns inherent with a standard flat keyboard. This keyboard will also be used with a tablet for portable use and split halves would add a less portable dimension to the equation.
I had to set my project aside for a while for several reasons but will soon have the time to get back to it.I'm looking forward to it and its fruits!
One thing that’s nice about Alps switches is that they’re rectangular, which (since you seem to be making your own keycaps) means you can easily reduce vertical spacing.
I think typical horizontal spacing is okay, assuming you want a solid block of keys. [In the keyboard I’m making, I increase average horizontal spacing, but make the columns splay out a bit, to follow the directions fingers actually move.]
You can see the half inch shorter columns compared to conventional vertical spacing.The Apple aluminium keyboards that you are comparing against does not have conventional vertical spacing. It is a tiny bit smaller on the vertical than on the horizontal. ;)
You can see the half inch shorter columns compared to conventional vertical spacing.The Apple aluminium keyboards that you are comparing against does not have conventional vertical spacing. It is a tiny bit smaller on the vertical than on the horizontal. ;)
I am jealous of you for owning a mill... Looks awesome! I'm looking forward to seeing your progress.
Those caps are beautiful! I'd make molds and cast some urethane caps. Good consistency and I think less work per keycap.
Quite jealous of your mill right now, but I have plans of my own to end up with machining tools :) This site: http://www.5bears.com/cnc.htm has given me big ideas. Slowly buying the needed parts as funds are available each month. Long term project.
I have talked to many women who really like the idea of tighter spacing between keys. Their typically smaller hands are even less suited to standard spacing than men.Me too. I’m curious if you know any women (or men) with small hands who have tried the μTron. I tried it at HaaTa’s Bay Area meetup a couple weeks ago, and I found that the smaller key size made it a bit tricky for me to accurately hit the keys. But I suspect that the issue there is (1) the horizontal stagger, and (2) the narrower-than-usual width of the key. My guess is that reducing the depth of a key, especially on a keyboard with roughly vertically staggered columns, will not cause the same issues. Although perhaps women with small hands would also prefer keys closer together horizontally.
Good point. Here is what I'm working on.
(Attachment Link)
The blue represents full size keys.
I decided not to wait for opinions. I know I will benefit from it so I started making keycaps today.
Here are pictures of a rough mock up I assembled before latest changes
(Attachment Link) (Attachment Link)
Hm, I think I might like that layout your proposing. I'd love to try it.
In other news, THAT MOCKUP LOOKS AMAZING.
By the way, Kurplop, you might be interested in http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=55099
Huh. The Datadesk Smartboard apparently had variable sized keycaps http://www.atpm.com/12.05/smartboard.shtml narrower toward the center:Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/qOfdn1Y.jpg)
...
I have talked to many women...
Ideally, I think you want to decide the axis of switch based on the main direction of finger movement when you’re pressing the switch. In general, I (and I believe most people) press the switch mostly by swiveling the whole finger around the joint at the finger’s base, where it meets the palm, while leaving the other finger joints mostly rigid (the two distal finger joints are used for positioning the finger, but not for actually pressing the keys, in my experience). The direction of motion at the fingertip is therefore pretty close to up-and-down, especially for further-away keys that you have to reach for.
Therefore, I personally find the Kinesis to be noticeably suboptimal because it expects me to be pressing away from my body as well as down for the top rows (and pressing sideways for the side columns of keys). It’s forced to do this by the curved PCB design. But if you can place switches arbitrarily and hand wire them, I think you want the further rows to be a bit higher off the table than near rows, but still angled about the same.
And what switch did you end up deciding on? I'm not an expert, but I know there are at least 2 different mounting methods for alps switches.Which two methods are you referring to? Alps switches have little plastic clips which hold onto a metal plate, which should have a rectangular hole cut in it the size of the switch. Every Alps-switch keyboard I’ve ever seen used the same “mounting method”. :-)
And what switch did you end up deciding on? I'm not an expert, but I know there are at least 2 different mounting methods for alps switches.Which two methods are you referring to? Alps switches have little plastic clips which hold onto a metal plate, which should have a rectangular hole cut in it the size of the switch. Every Alps-switch keyboard I’ve ever seen used the same “mounting method”. :-)
I don’t recommend using a plate thicker than about 1.5mm, because then the triangular plastic clips won’t be able to clip in. 1/16" acrylic might work, I plan to try it in the near future.
I'll take pic's of the finished caps when I get a chance. I'm using Matias switches. I think I'll keep the clicky ones on, they really sound great resonating through the case but they are loud. I am also using 8 cherry reds for the radial thumb keys. They have less play in them and because the radial keys are a bit bigger, I wanted them to be stable without having to use stabilizers. I think they require less force to activate, which may be a good idea considering the thumbs direction of travel.
My plate thickness is currently just over 1/16" so the tabs don't quite lock. I don't know how thin I can mill the 6061 aluminum before it loses the rigidity necessary to prevent flexing. It has been a blessing in disguise during it's development because it has made it easier to remove the switches for testing and adjustments. I may just make a slight rabbit(sorry for the woodworking term) on each edge where the tabs would engage. Any suggestions are welcome.
I hesitate to post pictures of the entire keyboard yet because it looks a little rough unfinished but it won't be long now. Except for minor tweaking of angles and dimensions and the addition of a scroll wheel, it resembles the mockup I posted in this thread last summer.
I said the ducky green alps were an easy choice, but I should have said that alps in general were an easy choice. It was difficult to decide between the matias clicky and the ducky green alps... so much so that I ordered 90 matias, then changed my mind and ordered a ducky keyboard to salvage.I highly recommend you try to find an Apple M0115 or M0116 on ebay to salvage orange Alps switches from, and then swap in Matias clicky switch click leaves. The resulting franken-switch is very nice, a bit lighter weight than the Matias switch, a bit smoother, and noticeably less wobbly, and old Apple keyboards are relatively easy to find cheap.
I said the ducky green alps were an easy choice, but I should have said that alps in general were an easy choice. It was difficult to decide between the matias clicky and the ducky green alps... so much so that I ordered 90 matias, then changed my mind and ordered a ducky keyboard to salvage.I highly recommend you try to find an Apple M0115 or M0116 on ebay to salvage orange Alps switches from, and then swap in Matias clicky switch click leaves. The resulting franken-switch is very nice, a bit lighter weight than the Matias switch, a bit smoother, and noticeably less wobbly, and old Apple keyboards are relatively easy to find cheap.
Interesting. So your thumb cluster is a bit convex then if I'm understanding that right.
Sounds good, but what is this Caps Lock key you speak of and does it really need a place on your keyboard?
My plate thickness is currently just over 1/16" so the tabs don't quite lock. I don't know how thin I can mill the 6061 aluminum before it loses the rigidity necessary to prevent flexing. It has been a blessing in disguise during it's development because it has made it easier to remove the switches for testing and adjustments. I may just make a slight rabbit(sorry for the woodworking term) on each edge where the tabs would engage. Any suggestions are welcome.By “rabbit” do you mean “rabbet”? Anyway, if you can mill at an angle, I also think a beveled edge would work (i.e. a larger hole at the bottom edge than the top edge). Or you can just not worry about potentially snapping the little clips off. Or you can make the hole very tight to the switch size [hoping that the tolerances are pretty good from switch to switch], but include some kind of little cut-out notch for the plastic tabs to rest in.
Note, you attached Macintosh 'webloc' bookmark files, rather than actually pasting the links. Here they are as regular hyperlinks:Thanks for covering my blunder.
Guerrilla guide http://lcamtuf.coredump.cx/gcnc/
Specialty Resin & Chemical LLC http://www.specialtyresin.com/castingresins.html
At some point, I’m curious to try directly CNC cutting keycaps out of wood. I think the Shopbot at TechShop might be accurate and precise enough to do it, given sufficiently tiny drill bits.Be careful about your wood choice. You might want to orient the wood with the end grain facing up for stronger stems also. I gave up on my attempt because of the repeatability factor on a manual mill.
Also, you make a good case for the existence of Caps Lock. ;)
I have experimented a little with bending acrylic and with the right tools (strip heater and bending jig) it's pretty easy to get a good bend. I've seen someone use a thin hair straightening iron for smaller sized pieces, too. I want to use bent acrylic for my next ergo prototype as a plate and case, all-in-one solution. Ideally I'd set up bending jigs with built-in strip heaters (made from nichrome wire), but have to finalise some dimensions before trying that. So far, my attempts with a heat gun on 3mm thick acrylic have had mixed results. I want to use 5mm thick stuff, but the thicker you go, the harder it is to get good bends.
After getting some ridiculous quotes from keycapsdirect (over 5 dollars per key for the cheapest 1.5x's) I'm considering just machining some or all of the keys since harvesting the 1.xx keys of the profile I want results in no more than 2 per keyboard.Note, if we are willing to buy 100 keycaps of the same color, then it’s $1/cap for 1.5x1 alps caps (PBT, DSA profile) from them (though unfortunately, getting through their manufacturing queue takes 5 weeks). Price drops further as you increase numbers from there.
After getting some ridiculous quotes from keycapsdirect (over 5 dollars per key for the cheapest 1.5x's) I'm considering just machining some or all of the keys since harvesting the 1.xx keys of the profile I want results in no more than 2 per keyboard.Note, if we are willing to buy 100 keycaps of the same color, then it’s $1/cap for 1.5x1 alps caps (PBT, DSA profile) from them (though unfortunately, getting through their manufacturing queue takes 5 weeks). Price drops further as you increase numbers from there.
One of the biggest obstacles in making a non standard spaced keyboard is what to do about the smaller caps. I was experimenting with making keycaps out of aluminum and was pretty happy with how it came out. I don't know if I will make them all out of aluminum or just make the 6 different profiles I need and then cast the rest in urethane.
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
I left a brushed finish on the tops and polished the sides. The caps are standard width but 0.1" shorter front to back and shorter (height) to minimize overall size for portability.
I'm finishing up the 'bodywork' on my keyboard and beginning the painting. I couldn't resist taking a few pictures. (Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
I can't wait to have you try it out at Keycon 2014.
I have a feeling that board would be a vast improvement over what they currently are using for anyone who doesn't have a custom built ergo board given enough time to get used to it.
I'm currently planning a new keyboard design and it occurred to me that the standard 3/4" key spacing may not be ideal. Too closely spaced might feel cramped but larger than necessary requires unnecessary reaching and moving from home position.
I think that my hands are probably average size for an adult man. When I place my fingers tight together they fall about a third of a key short of home position spacing. That makes the current width of key spacing great for me and likely adequate for all but the biggest paw; I wouldn't want to mess with that. My interest is in the vertical spacing.
The typical fingertip is wider than it is thick (nail to pad). That makes me question the need for an unnecessarily tall (front to back) cap.
Try this. Place your fingers in home position, then strike a key on the number row. Did your whole hand have to move or could you reach it just by moving that finger? Now reach 2 rows down. Would it be easier to reach if that row was a half a key closer? Shortening the spacing .15" could be done with Cherry switches and would be even easier with Alps style switches (of course standard keycaps wouldn't work), and that would bring the bottom and number row almost a half a key closer.
One thing I have learned in my two year quest for the perfect ergonomic set up is that our needs are not the same; what works for one may not help another. Because of that I'm curious, do you think you would benefit by having tighter columns? Besides lack of keycap availability in that size, what are the downsides of a closer vertical spacing?
I suppose that it is positive that the upcoming matias ergo pro features 25 regular width, decreased height keycaps. They are arrows, copy, paste, home, end, function keys and so on. Hopefully someone will dare to make alphanumerical keycaps in the same dimensions soon.
http://matias.ca/ergopro/pc/viewer/2.jpg
Btw has it been pointed out how smaller keycaps decrease the distance of finger movements result in faster typing? That is, as long as the increased precision requirement doesn't slow down the fingers enough to erase the speed win. I know for me, the speed win is not erased.
Old thread, but for reference purposes, i though i would add that the ergo pro looks like it's using regular switches for the close vertical spacing keys like the copy paste and, arrows, and page up / down cluster. Here's a shot that shows the same switches just placed much closer together, and of course using smaller caps.
(Attachment Link)
Btw has it been pointed out how smaller keycaps decrease the distance of finger movements result in faster typing? That is, as long as the increased precision requirement doesn't slow down the fingers enough to erase the speed win. I know for me, the speed win is not erased.
There are two articles titled "The effect of keyboard key spacing on typing speed, error, usability, and biomechanics" Parts 1 & 2 which noted that 19-17mm key spacing was relatively the same, going under 17mm i think yielded some negative results, but the summary doesn't talk about long term effects, so i read it as, "that's how much you could change it without someone having to adapt to a new keyboard", and maybe the long term benefits would be worth it?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23829030 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23829030)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25029899 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25029899)
The smaller caps look like they won't fit around the Matias switches. Do they, or are the cap sides shallow and they stop before hitting the switch? Could someone take a picture of the underside of the smaller caps for reference?
I used a 6" mill vice and gang milled the bottoms and sides from a 1/2" x 0.72 x 6" piece of aluminum. That allowed me to do all but the top side in one large piece. I flipped the stock over and Tilted the head to make my bevels with it still in one unit. I made a deeper cut between caps to separate them and then angled the individual caps for the concave top cut. I angled the head to about 12 degrees and used a 3/4 end mill to cut the profile.
The last milling step was the trickiest because the vise had only the thin cap walls to grip and I did distort one cap slightly by crushing it in the vise.
I finished up with some sanding and sandblasting to even out the finish. I was hoping for a more textured finish but at least it's matte and fairly consistent.